1 00:00:01,134 --> 00:00:02,902 - He's an award-winning physicist and author, 2 00:00:02,902 --> 00:00:04,537 host of the PBS series 3 00:00:04,537 --> 00:00:08,108 "Searching: Our Quest for Me aning in the Age of Science", 4 00:00:08,108 --> 00:00:09,876 and he grew up in a Memphis family 5 00:00:09,876 --> 00:00:12,312 whose business was movie theaters. 6 00:00:12,312 --> 00:00:13,747 I'm George Larrimore, 7 00:00:13,747 --> 00:00:16,282 and this is A Conversation with Alan Lightman. 8 00:00:16,282 --> 00:00:18,885 [gentle music] 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,596 Welcome, everybody, this is A Conversation With. 10 00:00:29,596 --> 00:00:31,564 Today, we're talking with Alan Lightman. 11 00:00:31,564 --> 00:00:32,999 Alan, thank you for being with us. 12 00:00:32,999 --> 00:00:34,601 - Thanks for having me, George. 13 00:00:34,601 --> 00:00:37,737 - We are at the Malco Studio on the Square Theater, 14 00:00:37,737 --> 00:00:39,305 and I guess you'd say 15 00:00:39,305 --> 00:00:43,176 that the Malco theaters are in you at the atomic level. 16 00:00:43,176 --> 00:00:44,477 - Yes, that's right. 17 00:00:44,477 --> 00:00:46,579 - And your grandfather started this business? 18 00:00:46,579 --> 00:00:48,848 - Yes, in 1915. 19 00:00:48,848 --> 00:00:50,383 - 1915. 20 00:00:50,383 --> 00:00:52,719 Now, we'll talk more about your connection with Memphis 21 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:54,854 and your life in Memphis in a few minutes, but right now, 22 00:00:54,854 --> 00:00:58,191 let's get started with why we're here, which is to talk 23 00:00:58,191 --> 00:01:01,061 about a remarkable series that you are the host of. 24 00:01:01,061 --> 00:01:02,695 It's called "Searching: Our Quest 25 00:01:02,695 --> 00:01:05,231 for Meaning in the Age of Science". 26 00:01:05,231 --> 00:01:08,101 Now, the series starts with you lying on your back 27 00:01:08,101 --> 00:01:11,538 in a boat in the water near the coast of Maine, 28 00:01:11,538 --> 00:01:14,174 near an island in Maine where you have a house, 29 00:01:14,174 --> 00:01:18,144 and you had a moment there gazing up at the stars. 30 00:01:18,144 --> 00:01:20,613 Tell us what happened with you. 31 00:01:20,613 --> 00:01:23,983 - Well, it was after midnight. 32 00:01:23,983 --> 00:01:27,020 There were no other boats on the water, very quiet. 33 00:01:27,020 --> 00:01:29,355 It was a dark night, and I was coming back 34 00:01:29,355 --> 00:01:32,892 to the island in my boat, 35 00:01:32,892 --> 00:01:35,995 and it was a very starry night, 36 00:01:35,995 --> 00:01:38,565 and I decided to turn off the engine of the boat, 37 00:01:38,565 --> 00:01:40,633 and it got even more quiet. 38 00:01:40,633 --> 00:01:42,535 I turned off the running lights of the boat. 39 00:01:42,535 --> 00:01:45,605 It got even darker, and I lay down 40 00:01:45,605 --> 00:01:49,909 on the bottom of the boat and looked up at the stars, 41 00:01:51,010 --> 00:01:53,213 and after a few moments, 42 00:01:53,213 --> 00:01:56,749 I felt like I was falling into infinity. 43 00:01:56,749 --> 00:02:00,286 I felt like I was merging with the stars, 44 00:02:00,286 --> 00:02:03,890 merging with something much larger than myself, 45 00:02:05,225 --> 00:02:09,429 and there was another experience ha ving to do with time. 46 00:02:09,429 --> 00:02:14,367 I felt that the vast expansive time extending 47 00:02:14,367 --> 00:02:17,937 in the far distant past before I was born 48 00:02:17,937 --> 00:02:22,175 and into the far distant future after I'll be dead, 49 00:02:22,175 --> 00:02:24,944 seemed compressed to a dot. 50 00:02:24,944 --> 00:02:29,949 I lost all sense of myself, all sense of where I was, 51 00:02:30,817 --> 00:02:34,120 who I was in just that moment, 52 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,757 and it was a profound feeling of being part 53 00:02:37,757 --> 00:02:39,893 of something larger than myself. 54 00:02:39,893 --> 00:02:42,595 - Now, you wrote a book about it, and the book, 55 00:02:42,595 --> 00:02:46,799 I guess, if I'm right, is the genesis for this series. 56 00:02:46,799 --> 00:02:50,937 - That's correct, yeah, the director and producer, 57 00:02:50,937 --> 00:02:53,706 Geoffrey Haines-Stiles, read the book, 58 00:02:53,706 --> 00:02:56,476 which is called "Searching for Stars on an Island in Maine". 59 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:59,512 He read it about four or five years ago, 60 00:02:59,512 --> 00:03:02,649 and he contacted me and said that he would like to make 61 00:03:02,649 --> 00:03:06,853 a television series based on the book, 62 00:03:06,853 --> 00:03:10,790 and he's a very distinguished filmmaker, 63 00:03:12,892 --> 00:03:17,463 and I said, "Well, if it's going to be a straight science series, 64 00:03:19,165 --> 00:03:23,236 "thank you, but no thanks, but if you can include 65 00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:25,838 "the philosophical and theological 66 00:03:25,838 --> 00:03:28,575 "and ethical dimensions of science which the book does, 67 00:03:28,575 --> 00:03:30,310 then I would be interested." 68 00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:32,212 So that began our collaboration, 69 00:03:32,212 --> 00:03:35,682 and we worked for about three years on the project. 70 00:03:35,682 --> 00:03:37,483 - Now, if we could go back for a second to talk 71 00:03:37,483 --> 00:03:40,787 about him and the executive producer as well, 72 00:03:40,787 --> 00:03:44,891 he was a, Jeff was one of the producers on "Cosmos", 73 00:03:44,891 --> 00:03:49,095 the Carl Sagan series, which made sense to people 74 00:03:50,997 --> 00:03:54,801 about science who didn't necessarily understand science. 75 00:03:54,801 --> 00:03:56,936 That's a good league to be in, 76 00:03:56,936 --> 00:03:59,239 a good conversation to be in for both of you. 77 00:03:59,239 --> 00:04:01,441 - Yes, he had made and made a number 78 00:04:01,441 --> 00:04:06,446 of documentaries since then, and his partner, 79 00:04:07,814 --> 00:04:12,252 Erna Akuginow also has worked with him for many years, 80 00:04:13,119 --> 00:04:14,587 and they're both prize winners, 81 00:04:14,587 --> 00:04:18,558 and I knew that he was a very distinguished director. 82 00:04:18,558 --> 00:04:22,161 - Now again, straighten me out where I'm wrong. 83 00:04:22,161 --> 00:04:26,699 It seems to me that you were, as a viewer, 84 00:04:26,699 --> 00:04:29,636 that you were not necessarily trying to answer 85 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:32,438 all the questions, but you were trying to get us 86 00:04:32,438 --> 00:04:36,242 to ask ourselves questions as we watch it. 87 00:04:36,242 --> 00:04:38,411 - Yes, that's right, I've always thought 88 00:04:38,411 --> 00:04:42,582 that the most profound questions don't have answers, 89 00:04:42,582 --> 00:04:46,386 that they provoke us and stimulate our thought, 90 00:04:46,386 --> 00:04:49,088 and that's what we're trying to do 91 00:04:49,088 --> 00:04:51,190 with the series is make people think 92 00:04:51,190 --> 00:04:52,792 about some of these big questions 93 00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:56,896 like what is our place in the cosmos? 94 00:04:59,032 --> 00:05:02,702 Or how do our material neurons produce 95 00:05:02,702 --> 00:05:06,239 the incredible experiences that we have? 96 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:10,176 - Now, you come at this as a scientist, 97 00:05:10,176 --> 00:05:14,247 that you require proof of what you believe. 98 00:05:15,381 --> 00:05:20,186 You talk about and with very well-known, 99 00:05:21,554 --> 00:05:24,357 very well-respected scientists in this series. 100 00:05:24,357 --> 00:05:27,460 What is it that you're trying to get us to see 101 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:30,697 through their eyes, in terms of what they're seeing 102 00:05:30,697 --> 00:05:33,566 in terms of science? 103 00:05:33,566 --> 00:05:37,236 - Well, I think the most important thing is 104 00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:40,073 their passion for what they do. 105 00:05:41,341 --> 00:05:43,509 The scientists that I talk to, 106 00:05:43,509 --> 00:05:45,912 they're not doing it to make a lot of money. 107 00:05:45,912 --> 00:05:49,782 They're not doing it to make a faster sports car 108 00:05:49,782 --> 00:05:51,150 or a better washing machine. 109 00:05:51,150 --> 00:05:56,155 They're doing it because they're passionate 110 00:05:57,290 --> 00:05:59,926 about learning about the universe 111 00:05:59,926 --> 00:06:03,529 and learning about us, human beings on Earth, 112 00:06:04,697 --> 00:06:06,866 so that's the most important thing. 113 00:06:08,301 --> 00:06:10,536 Of course, each one of the scientists I talk to has 114 00:06:10,536 --> 00:06:12,038 their own discipline. 115 00:06:12,038 --> 00:06:14,674 There's a biologist who's trying to create 116 00:06:14,674 --> 00:06:16,676 a living cell from scratch. 117 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:21,547 There's a physicist who's detecting 118 00:06:21,547 --> 00:06:25,184 gravitational waves emitted by colliding black holes 119 00:06:25,184 --> 00:06:26,919 a billion light years away. 120 00:06:28,020 --> 00:06:31,257 But they're all trying to find out more 121 00:06:31,257 --> 00:06:34,560 about the strange universe that we live in, 122 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,232 and I find that very refreshing 123 00:06:39,232 --> 00:06:42,168 that there are people who are just interested 124 00:06:42,168 --> 00:06:43,669 in pure knowledge. 125 00:06:43,669 --> 00:06:46,339 They're not interested in advancing their careers. 126 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:50,009 They don't have a political agenda. 127 00:06:50,009 --> 00:06:53,813 They're just trying to learn about the universe. 128 00:06:53,813 --> 00:06:57,383 - Is that the life you've lived as a scientist? 129 00:06:57,383 --> 00:07:01,120 - That is the life that I've lived as a scientist. 130 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,390 I was interested in the arts from a young age, 131 00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:09,395 and of course, the arts, their fuel is ambiguity. 132 00:07:10,530 --> 00:07:13,699 You don't have definite answers in the arts. 133 00:07:13,699 --> 00:07:16,769 You ask questions that don't have definite answers. 134 00:07:16,769 --> 00:07:20,706 So I had that kind of duality from a young age 135 00:07:20,706 --> 00:07:24,110 of being interested both in questions with answers 136 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:27,547 and questions without answers, and I was lucky enough 137 00:07:27,547 --> 00:07:30,249 to have been able to pursue a career 138 00:07:31,417 --> 00:07:34,020 in which I was both a scientist and a writer. 139 00:07:34,887 --> 00:07:36,389 - I've read that you said, 140 00:07:36,389 --> 00:07:39,659 "I believe the universe is atoms and nothing more, 141 00:07:39,659 --> 00:07:42,995 but how could I feel what I feel?" 142 00:07:42,995 --> 00:07:46,365 Now, that again going back to the night in the boat, 143 00:07:46,365 --> 00:07:48,901 talk to me about that. 144 00:07:48,901 --> 00:07:52,772 - Well, I have to say that at the end of the day, 145 00:07:52,772 --> 00:07:54,941 I'm still a materialist. 146 00:07:54,941 --> 00:07:59,946 I still believe that the world is made of atoms and molecules, 147 00:08:02,148 --> 00:08:04,584 but the special arrangement 148 00:08:04,584 --> 00:08:08,921 of those atoms and molecules in our brains allows us 149 00:08:08,921 --> 00:08:12,492 these extraordinary experiences, 150 00:08:12,492 --> 00:08:15,862 like feeling part of the stars in the sky, 151 00:08:15,862 --> 00:08:19,899 or communing with nature, or falling in love. 152 00:08:19,899 --> 00:08:22,735 And we don't really understand how you get 153 00:08:22,735 --> 00:08:25,771 from the material neurons of the brain 154 00:08:25,771 --> 00:08:29,208 to these complex human experiences. 155 00:08:29,208 --> 00:08:30,910 Even though I do believe 156 00:08:30,910 --> 00:08:33,613 that all of our experiences are rooted 157 00:08:33,613 --> 00:08:35,081 in the material brain, 158 00:08:36,482 --> 00:08:38,484 neuroscientists still have not been able to fill 159 00:08:38,484 --> 00:08:42,321 in all the blanks to get from those material neurons 160 00:08:42,321 --> 00:08:46,025 to consciousness, or falling in love, 161 00:08:46,025 --> 00:08:48,995 or all of the other amazing experiences 162 00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:51,197 that our human brains are capable of. 163 00:08:51,197 --> 00:08:54,567 So I'm a materialist, 164 00:08:54,567 --> 00:08:58,037 but I call myself a spiritual materialist, 165 00:08:58,037 --> 00:09:00,706 because I have these spiritual experiences 166 00:09:00,706 --> 00:09:02,942 like everybody else does. 167 00:09:02,942 --> 00:09:05,144 The lying in the boat looking up at the stars 168 00:09:05,144 --> 00:09:07,713 and feeling part of them was an example of one. 169 00:09:07,713 --> 00:09:09,348 We all have these kinds 170 00:09:09,348 --> 00:09:13,219 of spiritual transcendent experiences, 171 00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:16,722 and so I acknowledge those experiences, 172 00:09:16,722 --> 00:09:21,727 I embrace them, I'm honored by them, 173 00:09:23,296 --> 00:09:25,698 but I do believe that ultimately, everything 174 00:09:25,698 --> 00:09:28,301 is rooted in the material brain. 175 00:09:29,802 --> 00:09:32,638 - Spiritual experiences, now, this may sound odd, 176 00:09:32,638 --> 00:09:35,408 but there's a scene where you're on your knees 177 00:09:35,408 --> 00:09:38,411 in the backyard with a magnifying glass in your hand, 178 00:09:38,411 --> 00:09:40,446 looking at the smaller universe. 179 00:09:42,448 --> 00:09:45,685 It made me think we're walking right past this. 180 00:09:45,685 --> 00:09:48,120 You walk right past this in everyday life, 181 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,223 a universe in fact, that is at our feet. 182 00:09:51,223 --> 00:09:52,658 - Yes, that's right, 183 00:09:52,658 --> 00:09:56,362 every square inch of the ground has a whole world in it 184 00:09:56,362 --> 00:09:59,966 of little animals walking around, 185 00:09:59,966 --> 00:10:01,434 going about their business, 186 00:10:02,602 --> 00:10:06,205 that we pay no attention to. 187 00:10:06,205 --> 00:10:11,243 And one of the ways of viewing the world 188 00:10:12,678 --> 00:10:16,349 that I have partly adopted in recent years is Buddhism, 189 00:10:17,817 --> 00:10:21,053 which says that we should be present in the moment, 190 00:10:21,053 --> 00:10:23,889 pay attention to what's around us. 191 00:10:23,889 --> 00:10:24,991 I think it's- - Mindfulness. 192 00:10:24,991 --> 00:10:26,258 - Mindfulness. - As people talk about. 193 00:10:26,258 --> 00:10:28,127 - Mindfulness, yes, and I think that 194 00:10:28,127 --> 00:10:32,031 that's a very good way of going through life. 195 00:10:32,031 --> 00:10:36,836 - Now, if your granddaughter asks you about atoms, 196 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:39,872 or if a child of five asks you about, 197 00:10:39,872 --> 00:10:43,743 they read the word and they say atoms, where do you begin? 198 00:10:43,743 --> 00:10:45,311 Not that you can explain it 199 00:10:45,311 --> 00:10:47,813 that a child can understand it, but where do you start? 200 00:10:47,813 --> 00:10:49,148 I mean, you've raised two daughters, 201 00:10:49,148 --> 00:10:50,750 you've got grandchildren. 202 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:53,152 - Well, I would say that I would start 203 00:10:53,152 --> 00:10:57,556 with what you can see, and then you take a magnifying glass 204 00:10:57,556 --> 00:11:01,394 and you can see even smaller things, and if you got more 205 00:11:01,394 --> 00:11:04,263 and more and more powerful magnifying glasses 206 00:11:04,263 --> 00:11:06,565 and could see even smaller and smaller things, 207 00:11:06,565 --> 00:11:09,068 eventually, you would come down to these very, 208 00:11:09,068 --> 00:11:13,773 very tiny things which the naked eye can't see, 209 00:11:13,773 --> 00:11:18,110 which we call atoms, and the world is made 210 00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:21,313 out of these atoms, and there are different kinds of atoms. 211 00:11:22,448 --> 00:11:24,417 There are atoms that make up oxygen, 212 00:11:24,417 --> 00:11:26,085 and there are atoms that make up carbon, 213 00:11:26,085 --> 00:11:28,220 and all of the different materials in the world, 214 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:30,389 there are different kinds of atoms 215 00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:32,058 that make up these things. 216 00:11:32,058 --> 00:11:35,795 So I would try to explain it with what you can see. 217 00:11:35,795 --> 00:11:39,965 I would start with what we can see, and go down from there, 218 00:11:39,965 --> 00:11:41,701 and I think that most kids have looked 219 00:11:41,701 --> 00:11:44,804 through a magnifying glass, so they have some sense 220 00:11:44,804 --> 00:11:48,607 of having technology, in this case, 221 00:11:48,607 --> 00:11:51,644 a magnifying glass allowing us to do things 222 00:11:51,644 --> 00:11:54,113 that our human senses can't do. 223 00:11:54,113 --> 00:11:55,681 - And most kids are curious. 224 00:11:55,681 --> 00:11:57,216 - Most kids are curious. 225 00:11:57,216 --> 00:11:58,984 - They'll explore on their own if you prompt them. 226 00:11:58,984 --> 00:12:00,219 - Yeah. 227 00:12:00,219 --> 00:12:02,121 - Let's talk about the quest for meaning, 228 00:12:02,121 --> 00:12:03,956 our quest for meaning. 229 00:12:05,458 --> 00:12:07,693 You've asked Rebecca Goldstein, 230 00:12:07,693 --> 00:12:10,629 who's one of the people that you interviewed in this series, 231 00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:14,834 would we not be happier if we weren't constantly beating 232 00:12:14,834 --> 00:12:17,803 our breasts searching for meaning? 233 00:12:19,772 --> 00:12:22,308 Why do we beat our breasts constantly? 234 00:12:24,543 --> 00:12:28,047 - Well, I think it's part of the human condition 235 00:12:29,381 --> 00:12:30,916 to want to understand. 236 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:35,154 It's a byproduct of having a very intelligent brain. 237 00:12:36,122 --> 00:12:38,157 I think a lot of our traits are, 238 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:44,396 although they didn't have direct survival benefit, 239 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:49,401 they're byproducts of traits that had survival benefit. 240 00:12:50,369 --> 00:12:53,072 Like the ability to write poetry, 241 00:12:53,072 --> 00:12:56,142 well, that probably didn't have any direct survival benefit, 242 00:12:56,142 --> 00:12:58,077 but the sensitivity to sounds 243 00:12:58,077 --> 00:13:01,147 and rhythms certainly had survival benefit. 244 00:13:01,147 --> 00:13:05,618 And I think that a very advanced brain had 245 00:13:06,752 --> 00:13:09,255 direct survival benefit in being to outwit 246 00:13:09,255 --> 00:13:12,057 the tiger that's chasing you, 247 00:13:12,057 --> 00:13:16,162 and do it by your intellect rather than your sharp teeth. 248 00:13:16,162 --> 00:13:17,663 But I think a byproduct 249 00:13:17,663 --> 00:13:19,331 of high intelligence 250 00:13:20,533 --> 00:13:23,969 is the curiosity, 251 00:13:25,771 --> 00:13:30,176 the search for understanding, the search for meaning, 252 00:13:30,176 --> 00:13:33,579 so that's how I think that that arose. 253 00:13:33,579 --> 00:13:36,916 - You talk about and you mentioned these things 254 00:13:36,916 --> 00:13:39,785 more than once, you talk about how we are moved 255 00:13:39,785 --> 00:13:42,922 by the symphony, we are moved by art, 256 00:13:42,922 --> 00:13:47,026 or we are moved by the written word, as you said, in poetry. 257 00:13:49,061 --> 00:13:54,033 Is there a jump between consciousness and art, 258 00:13:55,534 --> 00:13:58,804 and that capacity to create art? 259 00:13:58,804 --> 00:14:00,206 - Well, I think consciousness, of course, 260 00:14:00,206 --> 00:14:03,175 is the fundamental mental sensation, 261 00:14:03,175 --> 00:14:05,144 so everything starts with consciousness, 262 00:14:05,144 --> 00:14:07,313 and I think, of course, consciousness 263 00:14:07,313 --> 00:14:08,814 is a graded phenomena. 264 00:14:08,814 --> 00:14:12,651 I think that dolphins and crows and dogs have some level 265 00:14:12,651 --> 00:14:15,721 of consciousness, not at our level. 266 00:14:17,723 --> 00:14:19,558 So you start with consciousness, 267 00:14:19,558 --> 00:14:22,228 the fundamental mental sensation, 268 00:14:23,662 --> 00:14:27,166 and then I think that the appreciation of beauty, 269 00:14:27,166 --> 00:14:32,137 the desire to make art, again, that's a byproduct 270 00:14:33,606 --> 00:14:37,243 of other traits that had survival benefit. 271 00:14:37,243 --> 00:14:41,914 Both Darwin and Freud believed that our appreciation 272 00:14:41,914 --> 00:14:45,484 of beauty is a byproduct 273 00:14:45,484 --> 00:14:48,821 of the urge for reproduction. 274 00:14:51,023 --> 00:14:54,660 You're attracted to a mate that's healthy, 275 00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:56,195 that has good coloring, 276 00:14:58,497 --> 00:15:01,734 some of the aspects we associate with beauty, 277 00:15:01,734 --> 00:15:05,571 and then as a byproduct of that, you have an appreciation 278 00:15:05,571 --> 00:15:09,808 for beauty in general, the beauty of a sunset, 279 00:15:09,808 --> 00:15:14,813 or the beauty of a snowflake, so I think that's an example, 280 00:15:15,681 --> 00:15:17,182 and I think that the desire 281 00:15:17,182 --> 00:15:21,687 to create art also is a byproduct of other traits 282 00:15:22,855 --> 00:15:24,390 that had direct survival benefit. 283 00:15:24,390 --> 00:15:26,225 I mean, we're expressing ourselves 284 00:15:26,225 --> 00:15:28,327 - Yeah. - When we create art. 285 00:15:28,327 --> 00:15:31,931 It's part of our urge to understand the universe, 286 00:15:31,931 --> 00:15:33,565 I think, the creation of art. 287 00:15:33,565 --> 00:15:35,601 It's a way of exploration, 288 00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:38,938 both inner exploration and outer exploration. 289 00:15:40,072 --> 00:15:43,542 - In another of your books, "Screening Room", 290 00:15:43,542 --> 00:15:46,445 you talk about a group of people who are your friends 291 00:15:46,445 --> 00:15:48,847 that you meet with from time to time, 292 00:15:48,847 --> 00:15:52,518 and that you say you were surprised that, as you said, 293 00:15:52,518 --> 00:15:55,354 "What continues to astonish me is the frequency 294 00:15:55,354 --> 00:15:56,855 "in which religion slips 295 00:15:56,855 --> 00:15:59,358 into the room unbidden and persistent." 296 00:15:59,358 --> 00:16:01,694 When we're talking about consciousness, and many people, 297 00:16:01,694 --> 00:16:04,964 I think, associate consciousness with their faith. 298 00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:09,601 Where does faith, if it does, fit into this conversation? 299 00:16:10,569 --> 00:16:14,006 - Well, first of all, I wanna say that we all have 300 00:16:14,006 --> 00:16:17,676 different views of the universe, and ourselves, 301 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:22,114 and how we got here, and our purpose, 302 00:16:22,114 --> 00:16:27,119 and I respect all the different views. 303 00:16:28,454 --> 00:16:31,056 I respect all of the different religious traditions. 304 00:16:31,056 --> 00:16:33,625 We're all trying to understand. 305 00:16:33,625 --> 00:16:35,327 We're all searching for meaning. 306 00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:40,699 I think scientists have faith as well. 307 00:16:43,068 --> 00:16:44,937 The faith that scientists have is 308 00:16:44,937 --> 00:16:46,572 that the universe is orderly, 309 00:16:47,706 --> 00:16:51,243 that it obeys laws, it obeys order, 310 00:16:51,243 --> 00:16:55,748 and there are laws that we human beings can discover. 311 00:16:55,748 --> 00:17:00,686 So I have faith in the orderliness of the universe. 312 00:17:03,355 --> 00:17:07,693 So that's my faith, and other people have faith 313 00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:09,328 that there's an intelligent, 314 00:17:09,328 --> 00:17:11,630 purposeful being that created the universe. 315 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:13,132 I totally respect that. 316 00:17:15,267 --> 00:17:18,437 I think that the universe came about 317 00:17:19,605 --> 00:17:23,308 from the laws of physics, but I know that 318 00:17:23,308 --> 00:17:26,845 there are other perspectives on that, which I respect. 319 00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:31,583 Science will never be able to disprove 320 00:17:31,583 --> 00:17:35,287 the existence of God, and religion will never be able 321 00:17:35,287 --> 00:17:38,991 to prove the existence of God, so we're all operating 322 00:17:38,991 --> 00:17:41,827 on our belief systems and our faith. 323 00:17:43,028 --> 00:17:46,031 - You write that we are all going about, 324 00:17:46,031 --> 00:17:47,466 or we are in the process 325 00:17:47,466 --> 00:17:51,637 of modifying our evolution by our own hand. 326 00:17:51,637 --> 00:17:54,173 And two of the most profound things that I got 327 00:17:54,173 --> 00:17:56,341 from this series were a conversation 328 00:17:56,341 --> 00:17:58,744 with a fellow who is paralyzed from the neck down, 329 00:17:58,744 --> 00:18:01,447 who had the capacity through science, 330 00:18:01,447 --> 00:18:03,048 through the application of science, 331 00:18:03,048 --> 00:18:07,586 to be able to move a robotic arm with his thought. 332 00:18:07,586 --> 00:18:12,591 And then also the conversation with the robot, 333 00:18:14,059 --> 00:18:17,329 which had been created in the image of a man's wife. 334 00:18:17,329 --> 00:18:19,198 If you'd talk about those two things, 335 00:18:19,198 --> 00:18:22,267 and what not just about what they are in particular, 336 00:18:22,267 --> 00:18:27,206 but what they are in terms of how we are evolving 337 00:18:27,206 --> 00:18:29,475 whether we want to evolve or not. 338 00:18:29,475 --> 00:18:32,478 - Yes, well, as everybody knows, 339 00:18:32,478 --> 00:18:35,814 technology has been advancing at an exponential rate. 340 00:18:35,814 --> 00:18:39,551 You can just look at our smartphones to see that. 341 00:18:39,551 --> 00:18:44,556 So the man that I talked to who is paralyzed 342 00:18:45,724 --> 00:18:48,560 from the neck down, he had electrodes implanted 343 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:53,432 in his brain that allowed him, as you said, 344 00:18:53,432 --> 00:18:56,535 to control a robotic arm by pure thought, 345 00:18:57,669 --> 00:19:01,240 and he's really part human and part machine. 346 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,709 And I think that it's possible that in the future 347 00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:07,412 we will have computer chips implanted in our brains 348 00:19:07,412 --> 00:19:10,115 that will connect us directly to the internet. 349 00:19:12,117 --> 00:19:14,820 I can't imagine what that world will be like, 350 00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:16,955 but the question is- - But it'll come along 351 00:19:16,955 --> 00:19:19,391 in your time. - I think it'll come along. 352 00:19:19,391 --> 00:19:23,228 It may, so the question is, when we're part human 353 00:19:23,228 --> 00:19:26,331 and part machine, which I'll call Homo techno, 354 00:19:26,331 --> 00:19:28,734 as an advance from Homo sapiens, 355 00:19:28,734 --> 00:19:32,237 what will be preserved of our humanity? 356 00:19:32,237 --> 00:19:35,040 Will we still wonder at the night sky, 357 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,576 will we still fall in love, and so on? 358 00:19:37,576 --> 00:19:38,944 I also had a conversation 359 00:19:38,944 --> 00:19:42,948 with a very advanced android named Bino 48, 360 00:19:44,283 --> 00:19:48,620 and as we know from the recent news 361 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:52,658 about advanced AI that everybody's talking about, 362 00:19:52,658 --> 00:19:55,527 that we are building more 363 00:19:55,527 --> 00:20:00,532 and more advanced artificial intelligence systems, 364 00:20:00,532 --> 00:20:03,569 and a big question that I have is 365 00:20:03,569 --> 00:20:05,771 will they ever achieve consciousness, 366 00:20:07,172 --> 00:20:08,907 whatever this mysterious thing is 367 00:20:08,907 --> 00:20:11,710 that we call consciousness, and if they do, 368 00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:14,780 will we have any ethical responsibilities to them? 369 00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:18,283 For example, if we had a very advanced android 370 00:20:18,283 --> 00:20:20,352 that we deemed to be conscious, 371 00:20:21,753 --> 00:20:24,556 would we have to ask permission to unplug it? 372 00:20:25,891 --> 00:20:28,393 Those are the kinds of questions that we face, 373 00:20:28,393 --> 00:20:30,929 and our grandchildren are going to face 374 00:20:30,929 --> 00:20:32,764 in the world that's coming up. 375 00:20:32,764 --> 00:20:34,900 - We're facing things now, I mean, in terms 376 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:39,638 of what you also do, which is to write, the notion 377 00:20:39,638 --> 00:20:43,609 that we can basically program a computer to write, 378 00:20:43,609 --> 00:20:46,378 not just write words, but write in a style. 379 00:20:46,378 --> 00:20:48,080 So we're looking at, there are lots 380 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,250 of ethical questions out there right now, as you know. 381 00:20:53,218 --> 00:20:55,887 Let's talk about, if you don't mind, 382 00:20:55,887 --> 00:20:57,456 let's talk about Memphis. 383 00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:01,426 We were talking before about the movie theaters. 384 00:21:01,426 --> 00:21:03,462 You grew up in the movie theaters. 385 00:21:03,462 --> 00:21:04,997 - Yes. 386 00:21:04,997 --> 00:21:06,865 - I read that you sometimes watched three movies a day. 387 00:21:06,865 --> 00:21:09,601 You worked, your first job was in a Malco theater. 388 00:21:09,601 --> 00:21:12,104 - Yes, I did, well, some people, 389 00:21:12,104 --> 00:21:16,208 some reviewers have said that my writing is very cinematic 390 00:21:16,208 --> 00:21:19,177 with attention to scene setting, and I think that 391 00:21:19,177 --> 00:21:21,880 that came from watching movie theaters 392 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,183 when I was growing up in Memphis, watching movies, 393 00:21:25,183 --> 00:21:28,620 I'm sorry, watching movies in movie theaters in Memphis. 394 00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:29,888 - Yeah, you said that your grandfather, 395 00:21:29,888 --> 00:21:32,090 M.A. Lightman, had a screening room, 396 00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:33,592 hence the title of the book. 397 00:21:33,592 --> 00:21:37,796 You actually met Elvis in the screening room 1960. 398 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:42,634 - It was around 1960, yes, he screened his own movies 399 00:21:43,802 --> 00:21:45,337 in my grandfather's screening room, 400 00:21:45,337 --> 00:21:47,372 'cause he didn't want to do it in public. 401 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,411 And the time that I met him, I was about 12 years old, 402 00:21:53,612 --> 00:21:57,582 and this guy walked in with two girls, 403 00:21:57,582 --> 00:22:00,052 two young women, one on each arm, 404 00:22:00,052 --> 00:22:02,954 and sat in the couch in the front. 405 00:22:02,954 --> 00:22:07,125 And I really didn't know anything about who Elvis was, 406 00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:11,196 certainly not his reputation, but at the age of 12, 407 00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:14,433 boys are beginning to pay attention to the opposite sex, 408 00:22:14,433 --> 00:22:17,235 and I was really impressed that this one guy had 409 00:22:17,235 --> 00:22:18,937 two women with him. 410 00:22:18,937 --> 00:22:20,906 That's what really impressed me about Elvis. 411 00:22:20,906 --> 00:22:22,207 - As a 12 year old boy. 412 00:22:24,476 --> 00:22:28,480 In the series, in a scene, I guess it's at your desk, 413 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,450 there's a photograph, a very famous photograph 414 00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:33,485 that most people in Memphis are aware of, 415 00:22:33,485 --> 00:22:35,087 taken by Ernest Withers. 416 00:22:35,087 --> 00:22:38,490 It's what's commonly known as the "I Am a Man" picture, 417 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:42,294 taken during the sanitation worker strike in 1968. 418 00:22:42,294 --> 00:22:45,030 You had just left Memphis to go back to school, 419 00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:48,467 I guess, at the time Dr. King was assassinated, 420 00:22:48,467 --> 00:22:52,704 and that was a difficult time for you to be from Memphis. 421 00:22:52,704 --> 00:22:54,005 Talk about that, would you? 422 00:22:55,941 --> 00:22:57,476 - Well, it was a difficult time, 423 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:02,247 because the media around the country were trashing Memphis, 424 00:23:03,648 --> 00:23:06,418 you know, as being, you know, an ignorant southern town 425 00:23:06,418 --> 00:23:09,020 where an assassination like that could occur, 426 00:23:10,288 --> 00:23:12,958 and so it was embarrassing for a while. 427 00:23:14,493 --> 00:23:17,396 And then I got over that, 428 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:19,664 and I started coming back to Memphis again. 429 00:23:20,532 --> 00:23:21,967 But the reason why I keep 430 00:23:21,967 --> 00:23:26,938 that famous Ernest Withers photograph by my desk is because 431 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:31,610 in thinking about what we human beings will be in the future 432 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:33,979 when we're part human and part machine, 433 00:23:35,447 --> 00:23:39,985 I want us to preserve some important human qualities 434 00:23:39,985 --> 00:23:43,455 that we have now, and one of those is dignity. 435 00:23:44,656 --> 00:23:48,160 And that poster, the "I Am a Man" poster, 436 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,030 where all of these men are holding a poster, 437 00:23:52,030 --> 00:23:54,166 the sanitation workers, that just says 438 00:23:54,166 --> 00:23:57,035 those four words, "I am a man", 439 00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:02,641 to me that expresses dignity more than their dignity. 440 00:24:02,641 --> 00:24:06,278 They all look dignified after this, you know, 441 00:24:06,278 --> 00:24:08,747 these terrible things have been done to them, 442 00:24:08,747 --> 00:24:12,751 this discrimination, they maintain their dignity, 443 00:24:12,751 --> 00:24:16,221 and I keep that poster as a reminder 444 00:24:16,221 --> 00:24:18,590 that dignity is something we want to keep. 445 00:24:19,891 --> 00:24:21,526 - I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you 446 00:24:21,526 --> 00:24:23,161 about "Einstein's Dreams". 447 00:24:23,161 --> 00:24:26,231 It's 31 years since you published it, 448 00:24:26,231 --> 00:24:28,967 bestseller in 30 languages, I believe, 449 00:24:28,967 --> 00:24:31,536 required reading in a lot of colleges. 450 00:24:31,536 --> 00:24:36,107 It's been a stage production, it was a musical in 2019. 451 00:24:36,107 --> 00:24:38,543 What do you think about it now? 452 00:24:38,543 --> 00:24:41,680 What do you think about what you did now? 453 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,684 - Well, first of all, I and the publishing house were 454 00:24:45,684 --> 00:24:48,286 surprised at the success of the book. 455 00:24:48,286 --> 00:24:52,691 What I find now is that a lot of people know the book 456 00:24:52,691 --> 00:24:54,426 and don't know me, 457 00:24:56,061 --> 00:24:59,431 so the book has achieved a recognition 458 00:24:59,431 --> 00:25:02,534 that's beyond my personal recognition. 459 00:25:02,534 --> 00:25:05,637 And at first, I was a little disturbed by that, 460 00:25:05,637 --> 00:25:09,407 and now I've come to realize that's a good thing, 461 00:25:09,407 --> 00:25:14,412 that the things that we create are more important than us, 462 00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:17,816 and of course, some of the things we create 463 00:25:17,816 --> 00:25:20,785 are our children and the children that they create, 464 00:25:20,785 --> 00:25:21,786 and so on. 465 00:25:22,888 --> 00:25:24,956 So I'm okay with the fact that some of the things 466 00:25:24,956 --> 00:25:28,026 that I create are more memorable than me. 467 00:25:29,427 --> 00:25:33,131 - You were talking once about, or you had written rather, 468 00:25:33,131 --> 00:25:36,768 that you don't believe in miracles or in the supernatural, 469 00:25:36,768 --> 00:25:40,772 but that you do believe in the miraculous. 470 00:25:40,772 --> 00:25:42,407 - Yes. 471 00:25:42,407 --> 00:25:45,911 - What's miraculous to you in the world? 472 00:25:45,911 --> 00:25:48,113 - The experience that I had lying in the boat, 473 00:25:48,113 --> 00:25:50,682 looking up at the stars and feeling connected, 474 00:25:50,682 --> 00:25:53,084 the feeling of falling in love, 475 00:25:53,084 --> 00:25:56,288 the feeling of watching my children born, 476 00:25:57,589 --> 00:26:00,859 to me, those are all transcendent, 477 00:26:00,859 --> 00:26:04,429 miraculous experiences, and I think that we've all had them. 478 00:26:05,864 --> 00:26:07,599 - Thank you, Alan Lightman, for being here with us today. 479 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:09,100 We've really enjoyed it. 480 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:12,237 - Thank you, George, and it's great to be on WKNO. 481 00:26:12,237 --> 00:26:14,739 - And thank you for watching us on WKNO. 482 00:26:14,739 --> 00:26:17,242 We'll see you next time on A Conversation With. 483 00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:23,381 [gentle music] 484 00:26:43,802 --> 00:26:45,804 [acoustic guitar chords]