WEBVTT
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- He's an award-winning
physicist and author,
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host of the PBS series
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"Searching: Our Quest for
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Me
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aning in the Age of Science",
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and he grew up in
a Memphis family
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whose business was
movie theaters.
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I'm George Larrimore,
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and this is A Conversation
with Alan Lightman.
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[gentle music]
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Welcome, everybody,
this is A Conversation With.
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Today, we're talking
with Alan Lightman.
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Alan, thank you
for being with us.
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- Thanks for having me, George.
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- We are at the Malco Studio
on the Square Theater,
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and I guess you'd say
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that the Malco theaters are
in you at the atomic level.
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- Yes, that's right.
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- And your grandfather
started this business?
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- Yes, in 1915.
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- 1915.
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Now, we'll talk more about
your connection with Memphis
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and your life in Memphis in
a few minutes, but right now,
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let's get started with why
we're here, which is to talk
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about a remarkable series
that you are the host of.
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It's called
"Searching: Our Quest
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for Meaning in the
Age of Science".
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Now, the series starts
with you lying on your back
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in a boat in the water
near the coast of Maine,
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near an island in Maine
where you have a house,
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and you had a moment there
gazing up at the stars.
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Tell us what happened with you.
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- Well, it was after midnight.
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There were no other boats
on the water, very quiet.
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It was a dark night,
and I was coming back
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to the island in my boat,
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and it was a very starry night,
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and I decided to turn off
the engine of the boat,
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and it got even more quiet.
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I turned off the running
lights of the boat.
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It got even darker,
and I lay down
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on the bottom of the boat
and looked up at the stars,
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and after a few moments,
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I felt like I was
falling into infinity.
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I felt like I was
merging with the stars,
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merging with something
much larger than myself,
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and there was another experience
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ha
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ving to do with time.
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I felt that the vast
expansive time extending
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in the far distant
past before I was born
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and into the far distant
future after I'll be dead,
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seemed compressed to a dot.
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I lost all sense of myself,
all sense of where I was,
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who I was in just that moment,
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and it was a profound
feeling of being part
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of something larger than myself.
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- Now, you wrote a book
about it, and the book,
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I guess, if I'm right, is
the genesis for this series.
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- That's correct, yeah,
the director and producer,
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Geoffrey Haines-Stiles,
read the book,
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which is called "Searching for
Stars on an Island in Maine".
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He read it about four
or five years ago,
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and he contacted me and said
that he would like to make
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a television series
based on the book,
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and he's a very
distinguished filmmaker,
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and I said, "Well, if it's going
to be a straight science series,
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"thank you, but no thanks,
but if you can include
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"the philosophical
and theological
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"and ethical dimensions of
science which the book does,
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then I would be interested."
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So that began our collaboration,
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and we worked for about
three years on the project.
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- Now, if we could go
back for a second to talk
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about him and the
executive producer as well,
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he was a, Jeff was one of
the producers on "Cosmos",
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the Carl Sagan series,
which made sense to people
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about science who didn't
necessarily understand science.
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That's a good league to be in,
03:56.936 --> 03:59.239 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
a good conversation to
be in for both of you.
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- Yes, he had made
and made a number
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of documentaries since
then, and his partner,
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Erna Akuginow also has worked
with him for many years,
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and they're both prize winners,
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and I knew that he was a
very distinguished director.
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- Now again, straighten
me out where I'm wrong.
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It seems to me that
you were, as a viewer,
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that you were not
necessarily trying to answer
04:29.636 --> 04:32.438 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
all the questions, but
you were trying to get us
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to ask ourselves
questions as we watch it.
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- Yes, that's right,
I've always thought
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that the most profound
questions don't have answers,
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that they provoke us and
stimulate our thought,
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and that's what
we're trying to do
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with the series is
make people think
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about some of
these big questions
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like what is our
place in the cosmos?
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Or how do our material
neurons produce
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the incredible
experiences that we have?
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- Now, you come at
this as a scientist,
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that you require proof
of what you believe.
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You talk about and
with very well-known,
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very well-respected
scientists in this series.
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What is it that you're
trying to get us to see
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through their eyes, in
terms of what they're seeing
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in terms of science?
05:33.566 --> 05:37.236 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
- Well, I think the most
important thing is
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their passion for what they do.
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The scientists that I talk to,
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they're not doing it
to make a lot of money.
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They're not doing it to
make a faster sports car
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or a better washing machine.
05:51.150 --> 05:56.155 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
They're doing it because
they're passionate
05:57.290 --> 05:59.926 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
about learning
about the universe
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and learning about us,
human beings on Earth,
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so that's the most
important thing.
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Of course, each one of the
scientists I talk to has
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their own discipline.
06:12.038 --> 06:14.674 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
There's a biologist
who's trying to create
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a living cell from scratch.
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There's a physicist
who's detecting
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gravitational waves emitted
by colliding black holes
06:25.184 --> 06:26.919 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
a billion light years away.
06:28.020 --> 06:31.257 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
But they're all trying
to find out more
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about the strange
universe that we live in,
06:34.560 --> 06:39.232 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
and I find that very refreshing
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that there are people
who are just interested
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in pure knowledge.
06:43.669 --> 06:46.339 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
They're not interested in
advancing their careers.
06:47.540 --> 06:50.009 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
They don't have a
political agenda.
06:50.009 --> 06:53.813 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
They're just trying to
learn about the universe.
06:53.813 --> 06:57.383 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- Is that the life you've
lived as a scientist?
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- That is the life that
I've lived as a scientist.
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I was interested in the
arts from a young age,
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and of course, the arts,
their fuel is ambiguity.
07:10.530 --> 07:13.699 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
You don't have definite
answers in the arts.
07:13.699 --> 07:16.769 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
You ask questions that
don't have definite answers.
07:16.769 --> 07:20.706 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
So I had that kind of
duality from a young age
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of being interested both
in questions with answers
07:24.110 --> 07:27.547 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
and questions without answers,
and I was lucky enough
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to have been able
to pursue a career
07:31.417 --> 07:34.020 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
in which I was both a
scientist and a writer.
07:34.887 --> 07:36.389 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
- I've read that you said,
07:36.389 --> 07:39.659 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
"I believe the universe
is atoms and nothing more,
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but how could I
feel what I feel?"
07:42.995 --> 07:46.365 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
Now, that again going back
to the night in the boat,
07:46.365 --> 07:48.901 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
talk to me about that.
07:48.901 --> 07:52.772 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
- Well, I have to say that
at the end of the day,
07:52.772 --> 07:54.941 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
I'm still a materialist.
07:54.941 --> 07:59.946 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
I still believe that the world
is made of atoms and molecules,
08:02.148 --> 08:04.584 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5%
but the special arrangement
08:04.584 --> 08:08.921 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
of those atoms and molecules
in our brains allows us
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these extraordinary experiences,
08:12.492 --> 08:15.862 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
like feeling part of
the stars in the sky,
08:15.862 --> 08:19.899 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
or communing with nature,
or falling in love.
08:19.899 --> 08:22.735 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
And we don't really
understand how you get
08:22.735 --> 08:25.771 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
from the material
neurons of the brain
08:25.771 --> 08:29.208 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
to these complex
human experiences.
08:29.208 --> 08:30.910 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
Even though I do believe
08:30.910 --> 08:33.613 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
that all of our
experiences are rooted
08:33.613 --> 08:35.081 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
in the material brain,
08:36.482 --> 08:38.484 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
neuroscientists still
have not been able to fill
08:38.484 --> 08:42.321 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
in all the blanks to get
from those material neurons
08:42.321 --> 08:46.025 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
to consciousness,
or falling in love,
08:46.025 --> 08:48.995 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
or all of the other
amazing experiences
08:48.995 --> 08:51.197 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
that our human brains
are capable of.
08:51.197 --> 08:54.567 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65%
So I'm a materialist,
08:54.567 --> 08:58.037 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
but I call myself a
spiritual materialist,
08:58.037 --> 09:00.706 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
because I have these
spiritual experiences
09:00.706 --> 09:02.942 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
like everybody else does.
09:02.942 --> 09:05.144 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
The lying in the boat
looking up at the stars
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and feeling part of them
was an example of one.
09:07.713 --> 09:09.348 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
We all have these kinds
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of spiritual
transcendent experiences,
09:13.219 --> 09:16.722 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and so I acknowledge
those experiences,
09:16.722 --> 09:21.727 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
I embrace them,
I'm honored by them,
09:23.296 --> 09:25.698 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
but I do believe that
ultimately, everything
09:25.698 --> 09:28.301 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
is rooted in the material brain.
09:29.802 --> 09:32.638 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- Spiritual experiences,
now, this may sound odd,
09:32.638 --> 09:35.408 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
but there's a scene where
you're on your knees
09:35.408 --> 09:38.411 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5%
in the backyard with a
magnifying glass in your hand,
09:38.411 --> 09:40.446 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80%
looking at the smaller universe.
09:42.448 --> 09:45.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
It made me think we're
walking right past this.
09:45.685 --> 09:48.120 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5%
You walk right past
this in everyday life,
09:48.120 --> 09:51.223 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
a universe in fact,
that is at our feet.
09:51.223 --> 09:52.658 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
- Yes, that's right,
09:52.658 --> 09:56.362 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5%
every square inch of the
ground has a whole world in it
09:56.362 --> 09:59.966 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60%
of little animals
walking around,
09:59.966 --> 10:01.434 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
going about their business,
10:02.602 --> 10:06.205 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
that we pay no attention to.
10:06.205 --> 10:11.243 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
And one of the ways
of viewing the world
10:12.678 --> 10:16.349 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
that I have partly adopted
in recent years is Buddhism,
10:17.817 --> 10:21.053 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
which says that we should
be present in the moment,
10:21.053 --> 10:23.889 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
pay attention to
what's around us.
10:23.889 --> 10:24.991 align:left position:32.5% line:83% size:57.5%
I think it's-
- Mindfulness.
10:24.991 --> 10:26.258 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
- Mindfulness.
- As people talk about.
10:26.258 --> 10:28.127 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
- Mindfulness, yes,
and I think that
10:28.127 --> 10:32.031 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
that's a very good way
of going through life.
10:32.031 --> 10:36.836 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
- Now, if your granddaughter
asks you about atoms,
10:36.836 --> 10:39.872 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
or if a child of
five asks you about,
10:39.872 --> 10:43.743 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
they read the word and they
say atoms, where do you begin?
10:43.743 --> 10:45.311 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
Not that you can explain it
10:45.311 --> 10:47.813 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
that a child can understand
it, but where do you start?
10:47.813 --> 10:49.148 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
I mean, you've
raised two daughters,
10:49.148 --> 10:50.750 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
you've got grandchildren.
10:50.750 --> 10:53.152 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
- Well, I would say
that I would start
10:53.152 --> 10:57.556 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
with what you can see, and then
you take a magnifying glass
10:57.556 --> 11:01.394 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and you can see even smaller
things, and if you got more
11:01.394 --> 11:04.263 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
and more and more powerful
magnifying glasses
11:04.263 --> 11:06.565 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
and could see even smaller
and smaller things,
11:06.565 --> 11:09.068 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
eventually, you would
come down to these very,
11:09.068 --> 11:13.773 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
very tiny things which
the naked eye can't see,
11:13.773 --> 11:18.110 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
which we call atoms,
and the world is made
11:18.110 --> 11:21.313 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
out of these atoms, and there
are different kinds of atoms.
11:22.448 --> 11:24.417 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
There are atoms
that make up oxygen,
11:24.417 --> 11:26.085 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and there are atoms
that make up carbon,
11:26.085 --> 11:28.220 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
and all of the different
materials in the world,
11:28.220 --> 11:30.389 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
there are different
kinds of atoms
11:30.389 --> 11:32.058 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
that make up these things.
11:32.058 --> 11:35.795 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
So I would try to explain
it with what you can see.
11:35.795 --> 11:39.965 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
I would start with what we can
see, and go down from there,
11:39.965 --> 11:41.701 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and I think that
most kids have looked
11:41.701 --> 11:44.804 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
through a magnifying glass,
so they have some sense
11:44.804 --> 11:48.607 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
of having technology,
in this case,
11:48.607 --> 11:51.644 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
a magnifying glass
allowing us to do things
11:51.644 --> 11:54.113 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
that our human senses can't do.
11:54.113 --> 11:55.681 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
- And most kids are curious.
11:55.681 --> 11:57.216 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
- Most kids are curious.
11:57.216 --> 11:58.984 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
- They'll explore on their
own if you prompt them.
11:58.984 --> 12:00.219 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5%
- Yeah.
12:00.219 --> 12:02.121 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
- Let's talk about
the quest for meaning,
12:02.121 --> 12:03.956 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
our quest for meaning.
12:05.458 --> 12:07.693 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
You've asked Rebecca Goldstein,
12:07.693 --> 12:10.629 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
who's one of the people that
you interviewed in this series,
12:10.629 --> 12:14.834 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
would we not be happier if
we weren't constantly beating
12:14.834 --> 12:17.803 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
our breasts searching
for meaning?
12:19.772 --> 12:22.308 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
Why do we beat our
breasts constantly?
12:24.543 --> 12:28.047 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- Well, I think it's part
of the human condition
12:29.381 --> 12:30.916 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
to want to understand.
12:30.916 --> 12:35.154 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
It's a byproduct of having
a very intelligent brain.
12:36.122 --> 12:38.157 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
I think a lot of our traits are,
12:41.560 --> 12:44.396 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
although they didn't have
direct survival benefit,
12:44.396 --> 12:49.401 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
they're byproducts of traits
that had survival benefit.
12:50.369 --> 12:53.072 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
Like the ability
to write poetry,
12:53.072 --> 12:56.142 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
well, that probably didn't have
any direct survival benefit,
12:56.142 --> 12:58.077 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
but the sensitivity to sounds
12:58.077 --> 13:01.147 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and rhythms certainly
had survival benefit.
13:01.147 --> 13:05.618 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
And I think that a
very advanced brain had
13:06.752 --> 13:09.255 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
direct survival benefit
in being to outwit
13:09.255 --> 13:12.057 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
the tiger that's chasing you,
13:12.057 --> 13:16.162 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and do it by your intellect
rather than your sharp teeth.
13:16.162 --> 13:17.663 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
But I think a byproduct
13:17.663 --> 13:19.331 align:left position:25% line:89% size:65%
of high intelligence
13:20.533 --> 13:23.969 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60%
is the curiosity,
13:25.771 --> 13:30.176 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
the search for understanding,
the search for meaning,
13:30.176 --> 13:33.579 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
so that's how I think
that that arose.
13:33.579 --> 13:36.916 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- You talk about and you
mentioned these things
13:36.916 --> 13:39.785 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
more than once, you talk
about how we are moved
13:39.785 --> 13:42.922 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
by the symphony, we
are moved by art,
13:42.922 --> 13:47.026 align:left position:12.5% line:5% size:77.5%
or we are moved by the written
word, as you said, in poetry.
13:49.061 --> 13:54.033 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
Is there a jump between
consciousness and art,
13:55.534 --> 13:58.804 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
and that capacity to create art?
13:58.804 --> 14:00.206 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- Well, I think
consciousness, of course,
14:00.206 --> 14:03.175 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
is the fundamental
mental sensation,
14:03.175 --> 14:05.144 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
so everything starts
with consciousness,
14:05.144 --> 14:07.313 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5%
and I think, of course,
consciousness
14:07.313 --> 14:08.814 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5%
is a graded phenomena.
14:08.814 --> 14:12.651 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
I think that dolphins and
crows and dogs have some level
14:12.651 --> 14:15.721 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
of consciousness,
not at our level.
14:17.723 --> 14:19.558 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
So you start with consciousness,
14:19.558 --> 14:22.228 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
the fundamental
mental sensation,
14:23.662 --> 14:27.166 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
and then I think that the
appreciation of beauty,
14:27.166 --> 14:32.137 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
the desire to make art,
again, that's a byproduct
14:33.606 --> 14:37.243 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
of other traits that
had survival benefit.
14:37.243 --> 14:41.914 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
Both Darwin and Freud
believed that our appreciation
14:41.914 --> 14:45.484 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
of beauty is a byproduct
14:45.484 --> 14:48.821 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
of the urge for reproduction.
14:51.023 --> 14:54.660 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
You're attracted to a
mate that's healthy,
14:54.660 --> 14:56.195 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
that has good coloring,
14:58.497 --> 15:01.734 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
some of the aspects we
associate with beauty,
15:01.734 --> 15:05.571 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
and then as a byproduct of
that, you have an appreciation
15:05.571 --> 15:09.808 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
for beauty in general,
the beauty of a sunset,
15:09.808 --> 15:14.813 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
or the beauty of a snowflake,
so I think that's an example,
15:15.681 --> 15:17.182 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
and I think that the desire
15:17.182 --> 15:21.687 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
to create art also is a
byproduct of other traits
15:22.855 --> 15:24.390 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
that had direct
survival benefit.
15:24.390 --> 15:26.225 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
I mean, we're
expressing ourselves
15:26.225 --> 15:28.327 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- Yeah.
- When we create art.
15:28.327 --> 15:31.931 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
It's part of our urge to
understand the universe,
15:31.931 --> 15:33.565 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
I think, the creation of art.
15:33.565 --> 15:35.601 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
It's a way of exploration,
15:35.601 --> 15:38.938 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
both inner exploration
and outer exploration.
15:40.072 --> 15:43.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- In another of your
books, "Screening Room",
15:43.542 --> 15:46.445 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
you talk about a group of
people who are your friends
15:46.445 --> 15:48.847 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
that you meet with
from time to time,
15:48.847 --> 15:52.518 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and that you say you were
surprised that, as you said,
15:52.518 --> 15:55.354 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
"What continues to astonish
me is the frequency
15:55.354 --> 15:56.855 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
"in which religion slips
15:56.855 --> 15:59.358 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
into the room unbidden
and persistent."
15:59.358 --> 16:01.694 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
When we're talking about
consciousness, and many people,
16:01.694 --> 16:04.964 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
I think, associate
consciousness with their faith.
16:04.964 --> 16:09.601 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
Where does faith, if it does,
fit into this conversation?
16:10.569 --> 16:14.006 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
- Well, first of all, I
wanna say that we all have
16:14.006 --> 16:17.676 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
different views of the
universe, and ourselves,
16:17.676 --> 16:22.114 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and how we got here,
and our purpose,
16:22.114 --> 16:27.119 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and I respect all
the different views.
16:28.454 --> 16:31.056 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
I respect all of the different
religious traditions.
16:31.056 --> 16:33.625 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
We're all trying to understand.
16:33.625 --> 16:35.327 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
We're all searching for meaning.
16:37.830 --> 16:40.699 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
I think scientists
have faith as well.
16:43.068 --> 16:44.937 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
The faith that
scientists have is
16:44.937 --> 16:46.572 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
that the universe is orderly,
16:47.706 --> 16:51.243 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
that it obeys laws,
it obeys order,
16:51.243 --> 16:55.748 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
and there are laws that we
human beings can discover.
16:55.748 --> 17:00.686 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
So I have faith in the
orderliness of the universe.
17:03.355 --> 17:07.693 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
So that's my faith, and
other people have faith
17:07.693 --> 17:09.328 align:left position:15% line:89% size:75%
that there's an intelligent,
17:09.328 --> 17:11.630 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
purposeful being that
created the universe.
17:11.630 --> 17:13.132 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
I totally respect that.
17:15.267 --> 17:18.437 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
I think that the
universe came about
17:19.605 --> 17:23.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
from the laws of
physics, but I know that
17:23.308 --> 17:26.845 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
there are other perspectives
on that, which I respect.
17:28.213 --> 17:31.583 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
Science will never
be able to disprove
17:31.583 --> 17:35.287 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
the existence of God, and
religion will never be able
17:35.287 --> 17:38.991 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
to prove the existence of
God, so we're all operating
17:38.991 --> 17:41.827 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
on our belief systems
and our faith.
17:43.028 --> 17:46.031 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- You write that we
are all going about,
17:46.031 --> 17:47.466 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
or we are in the process
17:47.466 --> 17:51.637 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
of modifying our
evolution by our own hand.
17:51.637 --> 17:54.173 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
And two of the most
profound things that I got
17:54.173 --> 17:56.341 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
from this series
were a conversation
17:56.341 --> 17:58.744 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
with a fellow who is
paralyzed from the neck down,
17:58.744 --> 18:01.447 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
who had the capacity
through science,
18:01.447 --> 18:03.048 align:left position:22.5% line:5% size:67.5%
through the
application of science,
18:03.048 --> 18:07.586 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
to be able to move a robotic
arm with his thought.
18:07.586 --> 18:12.591 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
And then also the
conversation with the robot,
18:14.059 --> 18:17.329 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5%
which had been created in
the image of a man's wife.
18:17.329 --> 18:19.198 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
If you'd talk about
those two things,
18:19.198 --> 18:22.267 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and what not just about
what they are in particular,
18:22.267 --> 18:27.206 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
but what they are in terms
of how we are evolving
18:27.206 --> 18:29.475 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
whether we want
to evolve or not.
18:29.475 --> 18:32.478 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
- Yes, well, as everybody knows,
18:32.478 --> 18:35.814 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
technology has been advancing
at an exponential rate.
18:35.814 --> 18:39.551 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
You can just look at our
smartphones to see that.
18:39.551 --> 18:44.556 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
So the man that I talked
to who is paralyzed
18:45.724 --> 18:48.560 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
from the neck down, he
had electrodes implanted
18:48.560 --> 18:53.432 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
in his brain that
allowed him, as you said,
18:53.432 --> 18:56.535 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
to control a robotic
arm by pure thought,
18:57.669 --> 19:01.240 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
and he's really part
human and part machine.
19:01.240 --> 19:03.709 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
And I think that it's
possible that in the future
19:03.709 --> 19:07.412 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
we will have computer chips
implanted in our brains
19:07.412 --> 19:10.115 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
that will connect us
directly to the internet.
19:12.117 --> 19:14.820 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
I can't imagine what
that world will be like,
19:14.820 --> 19:16.955 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
but the question is-
- But it'll come along
19:16.955 --> 19:19.391 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
in your time.
- I think it'll come along.
19:19.391 --> 19:23.228 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
It may, so the question
is, when we're part human
19:23.228 --> 19:26.331 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
and part machine, which
I'll call Homo techno,
19:26.331 --> 19:28.734 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
as an advance from Homo sapiens,
19:28.734 --> 19:32.237 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
what will be preserved
of our humanity?
19:32.237 --> 19:35.040 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
Will we still wonder
at the night sky,
19:35.040 --> 19:37.576 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
will we still fall
in love, and so on?
19:37.576 --> 19:38.944 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
I also had a conversation
19:38.944 --> 19:42.948 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
with a very advanced
android named Bino 48,
19:44.283 --> 19:48.620 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
and as we know from
the recent news
19:48.620 --> 19:52.658 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
about advanced AI that
everybody's talking about,
19:52.658 --> 19:55.527 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
that we are building more
19:55.527 --> 20:00.532 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and more advanced artificial
intelligence systems,
20:00.532 --> 20:03.569 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
and a big question
that I have is
20:03.569 --> 20:05.771 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
will they ever
achieve consciousness,
20:07.172 --> 20:08.907 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
whatever this
mysterious thing is
20:08.907 --> 20:11.710 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
that we call consciousness,
and if they do,
20:11.710 --> 20:14.780 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
will we have any ethical
responsibilities to them?
20:14.780 --> 20:18.283 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
For example, if we had
a very advanced android
20:18.283 --> 20:20.352 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
that we deemed to be conscious,
20:21.753 --> 20:24.556 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
would we have to ask
permission to unplug it?
20:25.891 --> 20:28.393 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
Those are the kinds of
questions that we face,
20:28.393 --> 20:30.929 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and our grandchildren
are going to face
20:30.929 --> 20:32.764 align:left position:12.5% line:89% size:77.5%
in the world that's coming up.
20:32.764 --> 20:34.900 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- We're facing things
now, I mean, in terms
20:34.900 --> 20:39.638 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5%
of what you also do, which
is to write, the notion
20:39.638 --> 20:43.609 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
that we can basically
program a computer to write,
20:43.609 --> 20:46.378 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
not just write words,
but write in a style.
20:46.378 --> 20:48.080 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
So we're looking
at, there are lots
20:48.080 --> 20:51.250 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
of ethical questions out
there right now, as you know.
20:53.218 --> 20:55.887 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
Let's talk about,
if you don't mind,
20:55.887 --> 20:57.456 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
let's talk about Memphis.
20:59.091 --> 21:01.426 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
We were talking before
about the movie theaters.
21:01.426 --> 21:03.462 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
You grew up in the
movie theaters.
21:03.462 --> 21:04.997 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5%
- Yes.
21:04.997 --> 21:06.865 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
- I read that you sometimes
watched three movies a day.
21:06.865 --> 21:09.601 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
You worked, your first job
was in a Malco theater.
21:09.601 --> 21:12.104 align:left position:10% line:5% size:80%
- Yes, I did, well, some people,
21:12.104 --> 21:16.208 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
some reviewers have said that
my writing is very cinematic
21:16.208 --> 21:19.177 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
with attention to scene
setting, and I think that
21:19.177 --> 21:21.880 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
that came from
watching movie theaters
21:21.880 --> 21:25.183 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
when I was growing up in
Memphis, watching movies,
21:25.183 --> 21:28.620 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
I'm sorry, watching movies
in movie theaters in Memphis.
21:28.620 --> 21:29.888 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- Yeah, you said that
your grandfather,
21:29.888 --> 21:32.090 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
M.A. Lightman, had
a screening room,
21:32.090 --> 21:33.592 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
hence the title of the book.
21:33.592 --> 21:37.796 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
You actually met Elvis in
the screening room 1960.
21:37.796 --> 21:42.634 align:left position:17.5% line:5% size:72.5%
- It was around 1960, yes,
he screened his own movies
21:43.802 --> 21:45.337 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
in my grandfather's
screening room,
21:45.337 --> 21:47.372 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
'cause he didn't want
to do it in public.
21:48.840 --> 21:52.411 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
And the time that I met him,
I was about 12 years old,
21:53.612 --> 21:57.582 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
and this guy walked
in with two girls,
21:57.582 --> 22:00.052 align:left position:30% line:5% size:60%
two young women,
one on each arm,
22:00.052 --> 22:02.954 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
and sat in the
couch in the front.
22:02.954 --> 22:07.125 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
And I really didn't know
anything about who Elvis was,
22:08.460 --> 22:11.196 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
certainly not his reputation,
but at the age of 12,
22:11.196 --> 22:14.433 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
boys are beginning to pay
attention to the opposite sex,
22:14.433 --> 22:17.235 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
and I was really impressed
that this one guy had
22:17.235 --> 22:18.937 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5%
two women with him.
22:18.937 --> 22:20.906 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
That's what really
impressed me about Elvis.
22:20.906 --> 22:22.207 align:left position:22.5% line:89% size:67.5%
- As a 12 year old boy.
22:24.476 --> 22:28.480 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
In the series, in a scene,
I guess it's at your desk,
22:28.480 --> 22:31.450 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
there's a photograph,
a very famous photograph
22:31.450 --> 22:33.485 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
that most people in
Memphis are aware of,
22:33.485 --> 22:35.087 align:left position:20% line:5% size:70%
taken by Ernest Withers.
22:35.087 --> 22:38.490 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
It's what's commonly known
as the "I Am a Man" picture,
22:38.490 --> 22:42.294 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
taken during the sanitation
worker strike in 1968.
22:42.294 --> 22:45.030 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
You had just left Memphis
to go back to school,
22:45.030 --> 22:48.467 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
I guess, at the time
Dr. King was assassinated,
22:48.467 --> 22:52.704 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and that was a difficult time
for you to be from Memphis.
22:52.704 --> 22:54.005 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
Talk about that, would you?
22:55.941 --> 22:57.476 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
- Well, it was a difficult time,
22:57.476 --> 23:02.247 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
because the media around the
country were trashing Memphis,
23:03.648 --> 23:06.418 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
you know, as being, you know,
an ignorant southern town
23:06.418 --> 23:09.020 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
where an assassination
like that could occur,
23:10.288 --> 23:12.958 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
and so it was
embarrassing for a while.
23:14.493 --> 23:17.396 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
And then I got over that,
23:17.396 --> 23:19.664 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
and I started coming
back to Memphis again.
23:20.532 --> 23:21.967 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
But the reason why I keep
23:21.967 --> 23:26.938 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
that famous Ernest Withers
photograph by my desk is because
23:28.340 --> 23:31.610 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
in thinking about what we human
beings will be in the future
23:31.610 --> 23:33.979 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
when we're part human
and part machine,
23:35.447 --> 23:39.985 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
I want us to preserve some
important human qualities
23:39.985 --> 23:43.455 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
that we have now, and
one of those is dignity.
23:44.656 --> 23:48.160 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
And that poster, the
"I Am a Man" poster,
23:48.160 --> 23:52.030 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
where all of these men
are holding a poster,
23:52.030 --> 23:54.166 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
the sanitation
workers, that just says
23:54.166 --> 23:57.035 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
those four words, "I am a man",
23:59.070 --> 24:02.641 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
to me that expresses dignity
more than their dignity.
24:02.641 --> 24:06.278 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
They all look dignified
after this, you know,
24:06.278 --> 24:08.747 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
these terrible things
have been done to them,
24:08.747 --> 24:12.751 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
this discrimination, they
maintain their dignity,
24:12.751 --> 24:16.221 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
and I keep that
poster as a reminder
24:16.221 --> 24:18.590 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
that dignity is something
we want to keep.
24:19.891 --> 24:21.526 align:left position:27.5% line:83% size:62.5%
- I'd be remiss if
I didn't ask you
24:21.526 --> 24:23.161 align:left position:17.5% line:89% size:72.5%
about "Einstein's Dreams".
24:23.161 --> 24:26.231 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
It's 31 years since
you published it,
24:26.231 --> 24:28.967 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
bestseller in 30
languages, I believe,
24:28.967 --> 24:31.536 align:left position:27.5% line:5% size:62.5%
required reading in
a lot of colleges.
24:31.536 --> 24:36.107 align:left position:15% line:5% size:75%
It's been a stage production,
it was a musical in 2019.
24:36.107 --> 24:38.543 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
What do you think about it now?
24:38.543 --> 24:41.680 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
What do you think
about what you did now?
24:41.680 --> 24:45.684 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
- Well, first of all, I and
the publishing house were
24:45.684 --> 24:48.286 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
surprised at the
success of the book.
24:48.286 --> 24:52.691 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
What I find now is that a
lot of people know the book
24:52.691 --> 24:54.426 align:left position:27.5% line:89% size:62.5%
and don't know me,
24:56.061 --> 24:59.431 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
so the book
has achieved a recognition
24:59.431 --> 25:02.534 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
that's beyond my
personal recognition.
25:02.534 --> 25:05.637 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
And at first, I was a
little disturbed by that,
25:05.637 --> 25:09.407 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
and now I've come to
realize that's a good thing,
25:09.407 --> 25:14.412 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
that the things that we create
are more important than us,
25:15.380 --> 25:17.816 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
and of course, some
of the things we create
25:17.816 --> 25:20.785 align:left position:17.5% line:83% size:72.5%
are our children and the
children that they create,
25:20.785 --> 25:21.786 align:left position:37.5% line:89% size:52.5%
and so on.
25:22.888 --> 25:24.956 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
So I'm okay with the fact
that some of the things
25:24.956 --> 25:28.026 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
that I create are more
memorable than me.
25:29.427 --> 25:33.131 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
- You were talking once about,
or you had written rather,
25:33.131 --> 25:36.768 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80%
that you don't believe in
miracles or in the supernatural,
25:36.768 --> 25:40.772 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
but that you do believe
in the miraculous.
25:40.772 --> 25:42.407 align:left position:42.5% line:89% size:47.5%
- Yes.
25:42.407 --> 25:45.911 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- What's miraculous
to you in the world?
25:45.911 --> 25:48.113 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
- The experience that I
had lying in the boat,
25:48.113 --> 25:50.682 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
looking up at the stars
and feeling connected,
25:50.682 --> 25:53.084 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80%
the feeling of falling in love,
25:53.084 --> 25:56.288 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
the feeling of watching
my children born,
25:57.589 --> 26:00.859 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60%
to me, those are
all transcendent,
26:00.859 --> 26:04.429 align:left position:12.5% line:83% size:77.5%
miraculous experiences, and I
think that we've all had them.
26:05.864 --> 26:07.599 align:left position:15% line:83% size:75%
- Thank you, Alan Lightman,
for being here with us today.
26:07.599 --> 26:09.100 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
We've really enjoyed it.
26:09.100 --> 26:12.237 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70%
- Thank you, George, and
it's great to be on WKNO.
26:12.237 --> 26:14.739 align:left position:25% line:83% size:65%
- And thank you for
watching us on WKNO.
26:14.739 --> 26:17.242 align:left position:22.5% line:83% size:67.5%
We'll see you next time
on A Conversation With.
26:17.242 --> 26:23.381 align:left position:32.5% line:89% size:57.5%
[gentle music]
26:43.802 --> 26:45.804 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70%
[acoustic guitar chords]