>> Renee: THERE IS A GROWING

WAVE OF AGREEMENT THAT THE

GROWING NUMBER OF WOMEN BEHIND

BARS NEEDS DESPERATE ATTENTION.

WHILE THE DRAMA WEB SERIES

"ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK" HAS

ENRAPTURED VIEWERS, THE PROBLEMS

OF FEMALE PRISONERS AND THE

REASONS THEY'RE LOCKED UP IN THE

FIRST PLACE SOME BELIEVE SHOULD

TAKE A MORE PROMINENT PLACE IN

DEBATES ABOUT MASSIVE

INCARCERATION AND CRIMINAL

JUSTICE REFORM.

KENTUCKIAN HOLLY HARRIS WITH THE

JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK IS TRYING

TO ELEVATE THAT CONVERSATION AND

SHE TELLS US ALL ABOUT IT NOW ON

"CONNECTIONS."

THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR "

CONNECTIONS" TODAY.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

IN 1970 FEWER THAN 8,000 WOMEN

WERE IN JAIL.

TODAY, OVER 100,000 ARE BEHIND

BARS.

MANY OF THOSE WOMEN HAVE A

SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS AND MOST

HAVE A HISTORY OF DRUG OR

ALCOHOL ABUSE.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IS THE

PASSION OF TODAY'S GUEST WHO IS

THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE

U.S. JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK THAT

IS THE FIRST ORGANIZATION OF ITS

KIND TO BRING TOGETHER PROGRESS

IVE AND CONSERVATIVE

POLICY MAKERS AND PARTNERS TO

REFORM THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE

SYSTEM.

WE WANT TO SAY WELCOME HOME,

HOLLY HARRIS.

>> INGS THAT.

LIKE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN.

>> Renee: YOU SHOULD BE A

FAMILIAR FACE TO MANY WHO YOU

SAID IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO ALMOST

WHEN YOU USED TO BE ON THE TV

AIR WAVES IN LEXINGTON ON THE

CBS AFFILIATE THEN YOU WENT ON

AND I USED TO SEE YOU IN THE

CAPITOL HALLS, GENERAL COUNSEL

FOR THE SENATE PRESIDENT.

YOU HAVE DONE LOTS OF

INTERESTING THINGS IN YOUR LIFE.

>> WHEN I'M UP IN D.C., I GET

ASKED ALL THE TIME, IS IT A

DIFFERENT TRANSITION FOR YOU TO

BE IN THIS ACIDIC POLITICAL

ENVIRONMENT.

I SAY I'M FROM KENTUCKY.

I WAS WELL PREPARED.

I FEEL LIKE YOU AND BILL AND

EVERYBODY HERE AT KET, I MEAN

EVERYBODY HERE ALL PROS AND SO,

D.C. WAS NOTHING FOR ME.

>> Renee: WE PREPARED YOU WELL.

WE'LL TAKE SOME CREDIT.

I DID IT ALL ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT

ANY HELP FROM US.

TELL US HOW YOU REALLY GOT

INVOLVED WITH CRIMINAL JUSTICE

REFORM AND THE JUSTICE ACTION

NETWORK WHAT DREW TO YOU THIS

LINE OF WORK AND TELL US ABOUT

THE ORGANIZATION IN AND OF

ITSELF?

>> I STARTED MY LEGAL CAREER AS

A LAWYER FOR THE JUSTICE CABINET

I ACTUALLY WROTE THE BRIEF

DEFENDING THE LETHAL INJECTION

PROTOCOL.

WHEN YOU ARE YOUNG, THE WORLD IS

VERY BLACK AND WHITE AND THERE

IS RIGHT AND WRONG AND AS YOU

GET OLDER AND MAKE SOME MISTAKES

YOURSELF WHICH I'VE MADE A FEW,

YOU BECOME FAR MORE TOLERANT AND

, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY A

PROPONENT OF SECOND CHANCES.

I'VE CERTAINLY BENEFITED FROM

SECOND CHANCES AND SO, YOU KNOW,

I'VE GROWN IN THAT REGARD, BUT

YOU KNOW, I CAME OUT, AS YOU

KNOW, OF A VERY DIFFICULT

GOVERNOR'S RACE AND WAS REALLY

LOOKING FOR A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE

AND I REALLY WANTED TO DO

SOMETHING WHERE I COULD FEEL

LIKE I WAS IMPACTING PEOPLE IN A

POSSIBLE-- POSITIVE WAY.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM WAS RIS

ING UP AS THE NEXT BIG ISSUE

WHERE WE COULD FIND SOLUTIONS IN

THIS COUNTRY AND WE'VE HAD A

GREAT RUN AT THE JUSTICE ACTION

NETWORK THE LAST TWO YEARS.

I FEEL REALLY LUCKY TO WORK IN

THIS BASE.

>> YOU ARE WORKING WITH PROGRESS

IVE AND CONSERVATIVE

VOICES.

WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK IT.

NEWT NEWT, RAND PAUL HAS COME

OUT ON SOME THINGS LIKE THE

MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE HO HAVE FOUND

POLITICAL COMMON GROUND.

EVERYTHING GETS TAINTED BY

POLITICS, DO YOU THINK THIS

POLITICAL ISSUE IS FREER OF SOME

OF THE OTHER POLITICAL

IMPERATIVES WHERE POLITICIANS

MIGHT FALL OUT.

>> I FEEL LIKE IT'S THE LAST

SACRED SPACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE

STILL REACH AGO CROSS THE AISLE.

WE HAD AN EVENT IN WASHINGTON

D.C. CALLED WOMEN UNSHACKLED

WHERE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE

ISSUES YOU WERE DISCUSSES.

AS YOU MENTIONED, COREY BOOKER

WHO TOOK THE STAGE.

CONGRESSMAN DOUG COLLINS FROM

GEORGIA STAUNCH CONSERVATIVE,

YOU KNOW, PROGRESSIVE FORMER

ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM CALIFORNIA

, SO AND WE DID THIS

BY DESIGN, YOU KNOW.

WE WENT RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT

, RIGHT BECAUSE CRIMINAL

JUSTICE REFORM IS AN ISSUE THAT

IS, IT'S NOT A PROGRESSIVE OR

CONSERVATIVE ISSUE.

IT'S AN AMERICAN ISSUE.

WE FIND OURSELVES IN THIS

COUNTRY, WE ARE NOW IN A PLACE

WHERE ONE IN THREE AMERICAN

ADULTS HAS A CRIMINAL RECORD.

ONE IN THREE.

I SAY GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAY,

LOOK TOE YOUR LEFT, TO YOUR

RIGHT, ODDS ARE ONE OF THEM HAVE

HAD A BRUSH WITH THE LAW.

I GO TO PROM PROMINENT

PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CHURCH AND

PEOPLE COME UP TO ME, MOST OF

THEM FELON, BECAUSE THEY GET KET

AND THEY'RE REALLY TRYING 2K0

THE RIGHT THING.

SO WHEN YOU INTERACT WITH FELONS

WHICH YOU KNOW HAS BEEN A CURSE

WORD, YOU REALLY SEE THE

HUMANITY OF THIS PERSON

REGARDLESS OF PERHAPS WHAT THEY

DID WAS WRONG AND I'M NOT

EXCUSING THAT BUT YOU SEE THE

HUMANITY OF WHO THEY ARE.

>> AND I BRING SOME GOOD NEWS.

I'VE BEEN ON SEVERAL CALLS

RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, WE HELPED TO

FUND A LOT OF THE GROUPS OUT

THERE THAT ARE WORKING IN THIS

SPACE BOTH ON THE RIGHT AND ON

THE LEFT AND IT'S REALLY

INTERESTING.

EVERYBODY IS WANTING TO WORK IN

KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW.

>> Renee: KENTUCKY IS DOING IT

BIG WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE?

>> WE REALLY HAVE DONE A

PHENOMENAL JOB HERE.

LOUISIANA JUST PASSED A TON OF

REFORMS.

GEORGIA IS ACCOMPLISHED IN THE

THIS SPACE BUT IT'S GREAT TO SEE

KENTUCKY AS EMERGING AS ONE OF

THE STATES THAT REALLY FORWARD

THINKING WITH RESPECT TO

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM POLICIES

SO I'M PROUD OF THAT.

>> Renee: I GUESS MANY PEOPLE

WOULD WONDER WHEN DID THE SHIFT

COME?

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE HEAR ABOUT

VERY MUCH LAW AND ORDER STATES.

WE THINK OF TEXAS, SOME STOP AND

FRISK POLICIES THAT NEW YORK HAD

IMPLEMENTED.

SO WE THINK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE

POLICIES THAT HAPPENED IN THESE

OTHER STATES BUT YET THERE SEEMS

TO BE STATES LIKE KENTUCKY,

LOUISIANA, ALL THESE OTHER

STATES THAT ARE TAKING A TURN

FROM LAW AND ORDER OR IS THERE A

BALANCE BECAUSE THERE IS SOME

FEAR AS YOU'VE HEARD FROM SOME

OF OUR OWN KENTUCKY SENATORS, WE

DON'T WANT TO GIVE TOO MANY

SYMPATHY TO THOSE WHO COMMIT

CRIMES THAT SOMEHOW WE ARE

VICTIMIZING THE CRIMINALS.

SO WHERE IS THE TURN IN THINKING

ABOUT WHY CRIMINAL JUSTICE

REFORM MAKES SENSE?

>> I THINK IT'S TWO ISSUES.

THE FIRST IS THAT THESE REFORMS

ACTUALLY PROMOTE PUBLIC SAFETY.

IF YOU WERE IN FAVOR OF LAW AND

ORDER, CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM

IS WHERE YOU SHOULD BE.

THESE REFORMS HAVE PROVEN...

>> Renee: IT'S NOT ANTITHETICAL

TO LAW AND ORDER.

>> OF COURSE NOT.

TO ME WHAT LAW AND ORDER SHOULD

MEAN IS LOWERING CRIME RATES,

LOWERING RECIDIVIST VISM RATES

AND ENSURING THAT WE ARE PROMOT

ING PUBLIC SAFETY IN OUR

COMMUNITIES WHICH IS WHAT THESE

REFORMS HAVE PROVEN DO.

SO YOU KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN

DOING IN THE PAST IS WE'VE JUST

BEEN THROWING A LOT OF LOW LEVEL

NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS, MANY OF

WHOM WHO HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES,

MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, MANY

INDIVIDUALS HAVE SUFFERED SEVERE

TRAUMA AND HAVE BEEN SELF

MEDICATING AND THAT LITTLE HOW

THEY GET INVOLVED WITH ADDICTION

WHICH LEADS THEM TO THE JUSTICE

SYSTEM AND WE THROW THEM BEHIND

BARS WITH SOME BAD PEOPLE, YOU

KNOW.

I MEAN I SHOULD MENTION THAT,

THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN THIS

WORLD WHO DESERVE TO BE BEHIND

BARS AND SEGREGATED FROM SOCIETY

BUT WHEN YOU PUT THESE GROUPS

TOGETHER, AND THEN WE ARE NOT

PROVIDING JOB TRAINING, WE ARE

NOT GIVING THESE INDIVIDUALS

COUNSELING OR TREATMENT, WE ARE

NOT ADDRESSING THE CORE ISSUES

THAT LED THEM TO THE JUSTICE

SYSTEM TO BEGIN WITH SO WHAT

HAPPENS?

THEY GET OUT.

THEY CAN'T FIND JOBS, THEY CAN'T

FIND ADEQUATE HOUSING, THEY

CAN'T IMPROVE THEIR EDUCATION.

SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

RETURN TO CRIME, RETURN TO

PRISON.

WE ARE IN SAFER.

WE ARE THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER

BAD AND THAT'S THE CYCLE OF

FAILURE.

>> SO WOULD IT BE THAT THE

MONETARY IMPERATIVE TOOK

PRECEDENCE THAT SPENDING, IT

USED TO BE IN KENTUCKY THE

FIGURE WAS $22,000 AN INMATE.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S HIGHER.

>> THAT'S CONSERVATIVE.

>> Renee: PROBABLY MUCH MORE

THAN THAT NOW.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BUDGETARY

LINE OF WHAT THE CORRECTIONS

BUDGET, HOW MUCH IT CONSUMES IN

THE STATE BUDGET HERE OR

ANYWHERE ELSE, WAS THAT THE KIND

OF GIETDING POSTIN' GUIDING POST

BECAUSE WE HAVE DO SOMETHING

BECAUSE IT'S TAKING TOO MUCH OF

OUR DOLLARS FROM EDUCATION AND

OTHER SYSTEMS THAT WOULD KEEP

THEM FROM BEING INTO THE

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

>> THE PUBLIC SAFETY IMPACT, THE

BOTTOM LINE, I MEAN WE FIND

OURSELVES REALLY, I MEAN IN

KENTUCKY, THE TERRIBLE PENSION

CRISIS.

WE ARE LOOKING TO DO TAX REFORM,

LOOKING FOR WAYS TO, YOU KNOW,

SHORE UP SOME MORE REVENUE AND

TRY TO, YOU KNOW, PAY DOWN THIS

TERRIBLE DEBT AND ONE OF THE WAY

S WE CERTAINLY COULD BE DOING

THAT IS BY SAFELY REDUCING THE

JAIL AND PRISON POPULATION.

AND HERE IS A STATISTIC.

THIS ALWAYS SHOCKS PEOPLE WHEN I

MENTION THIS.

BUT RIGHT NOW IN KENTUCKY, WE

HAVE ROUGHLY 37,000 INDIVIDUALS,

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS

WHO ARE ACCUSED OF LOW LEVEL

NON-VIOLENT CRIMES WHO SIT

BEHIND BARS FOR AN AVERAGE OF

107 DAYS AT A COST TO THE

TAXPAYERS OF $30 A DAY SO

ROUGHLY $127 MILLION A YEAR AND

THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE BEHIND

BARS, THEY'VE NOT BEEN CONVICTED

THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE BEHIND

BARS IS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MAKE

THEIR BAIL.

MEANWHILE, LAST YEAR IN KENTUCKY

, JUST OVER 800 VIOLENT

ON TBENDERS, INDIVIDUALS ACCUSED

OF VIOLENT CRIMES DID MAKE BAIL.

THEY'RE OUT AND THE LOW LEVEL

NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS ARE

SITTING BEHIND BARS, LOSING

THEIR JOBS, NO ONE IS CARING FOR

THEIR CHILDREN.

WE NEED TO MAKE FUNDAMENTAL

CHANGES.

>> SENATE BILL 120 THAT IS LAW,

THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM BILL

THAT PASSED IN 2017 DIDN'T

ADDRESS THE ISSUE YOU RAISED.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT

CAME OFF THE TABLE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AND SO WHY WAS THAT?

I MEAN AND IS THERE SOME

MOVEMENT INTO TO CHANGE THAT

THINKING, WHAT IS THE TERM, NO

BAIL OR WHATEVER?

IS THERE A CHANGING THINKING

ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK WE NEED NEEDED TO DO

MORE EDUCATION AND WE NEEDED TO

ENSURE THAT MEMBERS OF LAW

ENFORCEMENT WERE AT THE TABLE AT

THE END OF SESSION.

WE WERE WORKING SO CLOSELY WITH

THE SHERIFFS AND THE JAILERS.

IT IS REALLY A LOT OF THE LOCAL

ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT HAVE SO

MUCH POWER AT THE LEGISLATURE.

YOU KNOW THIS, IF YOU GET A CALL

FROM YOUR JAILER OR YOUR SHERIFF

, YOU ARE GOING TO PAY

ATTENTION TO THAT.

AND I THINK ONCE WE, YOU KNOW,

WHY ABLE TO COORDINATE AND SMART

ON CRIME COALITION CAME TOGETHER

, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE

PAC THAT THE ORGANIZATION, THE

POLICY ASSESSMENT COUNCIL THAT

THE GOVERNOR PUT TOGETHER, WHEN

ALL OF THOSE GROUPS WERE

COORDINATING AND WORKING

TOGETHER I I THINK THINGS START

ED WORKING BEAUTIFULLY BUT

IN THE BEGINNING WHEN YOU ARE

TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER THE

REFORMS, I THINK THERE IS A

LEARNING CURVE AND I THINK IT

WAS REALLY HELPFUL TO START TALK

ING ABOUT WHAT HAD WORKED IN

STATES LIKE TEXAS, GEORGIA,

SOUTH CAROLINA, AND WHEN YOU,

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU START TALKING

ABOUT HOW THESE REFORMS HAVE

LOWERED CRIME RATES, RECIDIVISM

RATES AND SAVED HUNDREDS OF

MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, THAT'S

COMPELLING.

>> Renee: ONE OF THE THINGS WE

CONSTANTLY HEARD DURING THE

COMMITTEE TESTIMONY OR PRESS

CONFERENCE, THE GOVERNOR SAID IT

HIMSELF, 95% OF THOSE WHO ARE IN

JAIL ARE GOING TO COME OUT.

THEY'RE GOING TO GET OUT.

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM DO WHEN

THEY GET OUT?

YOU WANT THEM TO HAVE GOOD JOB

SKILLS THEY LEARN BEHIND BARS

THEY CAN PLY WHEN THEY GET ON

THE.

LIFT SOME OF THE ARBITRARY

LICENSING BARRIERS WHERE THEY

COULDN'T GET PROFESSIONAL

CERTIFICATIONS AND OTHER THINGS

TO HELP THEM FIND EMPLOYMENT.

THERE IS A LOT OF BARRIER LIFT

ING THAT SENATE BILL 120 DID

TO HELP FELONS SUCCESSFULLY RE

ENTER INTO SOCIETY.

NOT ABOUT BEING SOFT ON CRIME

BUT ABOUT BEING RIGHT OR SMART

ON CRIME.

>> SURE, IT'S ALSO ABOUT PROMOT

ING FAMILIES.

YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE

EPIDEMIC OF INCARCERATED WOMEN.

OVER THE PAST FEW DECADES,

POPULATION OF INCARS INCARCERAT

ED WOMEN HAS INCREASED

744%, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE

INDIVIDUALS ARE MOTHERS.

DO YOU KNOW KENTUCKY HAS THE

HIGHEST RATE OF CHILDREN WHO

HAVE HAD AN INCARCERATED PARENT

IN THE ENTIRE NATION.

I MEAN THAT'S HEART BREAKING.

AND SO I THINK WHEN YOU START

TALKING ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF

LIKE HOW IT IMPACTS THE FAMILY

AND, YOU KNOW, HOW IT DEVASTATES

, YOU KNOW, THE

CHILDREN OF INCARCERATED PARENTS

, THOSE CHILDREN ARE FIVE

TIMES MORE LIKELY TO ENTER THE

JUSTICE SYSTEM THEMSELVES THAN

OTHER CHILDREN.

SO WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT

IT IN TERMS OF LIKE HOW IT

IMPACTS THE FAMILY, AND YOU

MARRY THAT TO THE POSITIVE

PUBLIC SAFETY IMPACT AND THE

COST SAVINGS, YOU KNOW, IT'S

REALLY HARD TO COUNTER THOSE

ARGUMENT.

>> Renee: AND HOW THERE IS A LOT

OF INTERSECTIONALITY BETWEEN THE

CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, SOCIAL

SERVICES SYSTEM, THE WEIGHT THAT

WE PUT ON THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM

IN SCHOOLS TO HELP SUPPORT THESE

KIDS, ALL OF IT IS CONNECTED,

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ONE THING

ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE IN PUBLIC

POLICY, YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE

OF BEING ABLE TO CONNECT THE DOT

S.

THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT IT,

NOTHING IS JUST AN ISLAND.

IT ALL HAPPENS.

AND I WANT TO GET TO YOUR POINT

ABOUT, INCARCERATED WOMEN, MORE

THAN 60% OF WOMEN IN JAIL OR

PRISON HAVE A CHILD UNDER THE

AGE OF 18.

MANY OF THEM SINGLE SUPPOSER, A

LOT OF THEM MAY HAVE HAD

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ISSUES IN

THEIR PAST, MENTAL ILLNESS, SO

THE QUESTION IS THOUGH, PEOPLE

WOULD SAY EVERYBODY'S GOT

SOMETHING.

RIGHT, ARE WE EXCUSING THE FACT

THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES

BEHAVIOR DOES START WITH A

CHOICE.

AND THAT MANY PEEP COME FROM

CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MAY HAVE

THOSE DUAL DIAGNOSIS OF MENTAL

ILLNESS AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE BUT

THEY DON'T COMMIT CRIME.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU RAISED THIS

BECAUSE I WAS GETTING PUSH BACK

FROM OTHER FOLKS.

WHY WOULD WE TREAT WOMEN

DIFFERENTLY FROM MEN?

AND THAT'S REALLY NOT THE POINT

OF OF HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

CERTAIN WILL I WE NEED TO

UNDERSTAND THE DRIVERS OF FEMALE

INCARCERATION.

WHEN YOU HAVE A POPULATION THAT

IS EXPLODED 744% OVER THE LAST

FEW DECADES AND NO ONE IS

TALKING ABOUT IT, WE HAVE TO

UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS HAPPENING

AND WE HAVE IS TO START BEING

PROACTIVE ABOUT WHAT WEEK DO TO

HELP SOME OF THESE WOMEN.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN

INCARCERATED ARE MOTHERS.

MANY OF THEM, MOST OF THEM

RATHER HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES OR

A MENTAL ILLNESS.

THE OTHER ISSUE THAT YOU DON'T

SEE AS MUCH IN MEN IS THAT MANY

OF THESE WOMEN HAVE BEEN VICTIMS

OF A SEVERE TRAUMA, SEXUAL ABUSE

, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, MENTAL

ABUSE.

MANY OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE BEHIND

BARS FOR VIOLENT OFFENSES

ACTUALLY COMMITTED VIOLENCE

AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD

BEEN VIOLENT TOWARDS THEM.

THESE ARE NOT THE SAME ISSUES AS

WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH THE

MALE INCARCERATION INCARCERATED

POPULATION.

SO WHAT WOULD I SAY IS THAT

SHOULD YOU TREAT MEN AND WOMEN

DIFFERENTLY, YES.

MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT AND

CERTAINLY WITH RESPECT TO THE

PROGRAMMING THAT WE ARE PROVID

ING IN PRISON AND THE

COUNSELING AND THE TREATMENT AND

HOW WE WOULD ADDRESS WOMEN WHO

HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF SEXUAL

ABUSE, WHO THEN TURN TO

ADDICTION TO HELP SELF MEDICATE

TO DEAL WITH THAT TRAUMA, AND

THEN, YOU KNOW, THOSE

INDIVIDUALS, THAT'S WHAT LEADS

THEM TO THESE BAD DECISIONS THAT

LEADS THEM TO THE JUSTICE SYSTEM

CERTAINLY I THINK WE SHOULD BE

PROVIDING COUNSELING, TREATMENT,

REHABILITATIVE SERVICES TO THESE

INDIVIDUALS BECAUSE AGAIN IF WE

DON'T TREAT THEIR CORE ISSUES,

THEY'RE JUST GOING TO GET OUT,

RECIDIVATE AND GO BACK TO PRISON

>> Renee: AND AS YOU MENTIONED

FROM DEMOCRATIC SENATORS CAMILLA

HARRIS, REPUBLICAN MIA LOVE,

UTAH GOVERNOR, MARY FALLON,

THERE IS BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT

ABOUT THE ISSUE.

WE HAVE DONE A FEW PROGRAMS

ABOUT ADVERSE CHILDHOOD

EXPERIENCES, TRAUMA THAT AFFECTS

DECISION MAKING THAT IS ON THIS

SIDE OF THE FREEDOM OF THE BARS

OR ELSEWHERE.

SO LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW,

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND

PARTICULARLY THE PIECE ABOUT,

YOU KNOW, THERE IS A BILL, YOU

KNOW VERY WELL, DIGNITY FOR

INCARCERATED WOMEN ACT, COREY

BOOKER, ELIZABETH WARREN,

RICHARD DURBIN, THIS ADDRESSES

THE FACT THAT WOMEN WOULD BE

SHACKLED DURING PREGNANCY, AFTER

PREGNANCY.

>> DURING LABOR.

THERE ARE MANY STATES FOR THE

SHACKLING OF PREGNANT WOMEN AS

THEY'RE DELIVERING A BABY.

NOW AS SOMEONE WHO HAS IN FACT

BEEN THROUGH LABOR, I CAN'T

IMAGINE HOW YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO

ESCAPE WHILE GIVING BIRTH TO A

CHILD, YOU KNOW, AND CERTAINLY

WE FEEL LIKE THAT'S UNNECESSARY,

YOU KNOW.

AND SO THE CONFERENCE THAT WE

JUST HAD IN WASHINGTON D.C.

ADDRESSED THAT ISSUE IN

PARTICULAR BUT THEN ALSO A LOT

OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT WOMEN

HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

I MEAN AGAIN, WOMEN HAVE

DIFFERENT HEALTH NEEDS THAN MEN.

DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE IN FOUR

WOMEN INTERESTERRING-- ENTERING

OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM IS EITHER

PREGNANT OR THE MOTHER OF A

CHILD UNDER THE AGE OF ONE.

25% OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE ENTER

ING OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I MOON IF THAT-- I MEAN IF THAT

DOESN'T CONCERN YOU, THERE IS A

REAL PROBLEM THERE.

AND...

>> Renee: DO WE KNOW IF THE

SENTENCES IS THERE A DISPARITY

IN SENTENCING BETWEEN WOMEN AND

MEN.

IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED BETWEEN

AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE MARKET

POPULATION WHEN IT CAME TO DRUG

OFFENSES, CRACK COCAINE VS.

POWDER.

DO WE SEE THAT HAPPENING WITH

GENDER?

>> I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT RESEARCH.

BUT CERTAINLY WE HAVE SEEN A LOT

OF UNDULY HARSH SENTENCES FOR

WOMEN WHO HAVE COMMITTED LOW

LEVEL NON-VIOLENT CRIMES

PARTICULARLY DRUG CRIMES.

WOMEN ACT AS MULES FOR MANY OF

THEIR BOYFRIENDS WHO ARE MORE

THE DEALERS AND TRAFFICKERS.

THEY GET CAUGHT UP AND, YOU KNOW

, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, THEY

HAVE TO PLEAD OUT AND MANY OF

THEM ARE SERVING LONGER SENTENCE

S THAN THEIR MALE

COUNTERPARTS WHO HAD DEEPER

INVOLVEMENT IN THE DRUG SCEEP.

AND WE SEE THAT A LOT.

>> AND I GUESS IT'S IMPORTANT TO

COMMUNICATE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NON-VIOLENT

LOW LEVEL OFFENDERS HERE.

AND SO THERE IS NOT A MOVEMENT

TO SAY THAT WE SHOULD ADDRESS

HOW WE DEAL WITH VIOLENT OFFEND

ERS.

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR

ORGANIZATION IS TAKING UP.

>> BUT WE GET PUSHBACK SOMETIMES

ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER DRUG

CRIMES ARE VIOLENT CRIMES

BECAUSE DRUG TRADE IS INHERENTLY

VIOLENT AND WOULD I SUBMIT TO

YOU, EVEN IF, YOU KNOW, YOU

ACCEPT THAT ARGUMENT, THE

RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THE LONGER

SENTENCES ARE ACTUALLY HARMFUL

TO PUBLIC SAFETY BECAUSE WHAT

HAPPENS IS THE LONGER THAT THESE

INDIVIDUALS ARE ISOLATED FROM

SOCIETY, THE LESS LIKELY THEY

ARE TO SUCCESSFULLY REENTER, AND

AS YOU MENTIONED BEFORE,

GOVERNOR BEVIN SAYS ALL THE TIME

, 95% OF THESE INDIVIDUALS

ARE GETTING OUT SOME DAY.

SO IF YOU'VE GOT A MANDATORY 10

-YEAR MANDATORY MINIMUM FOR AN

INDIVIDUAL WHO IS BUSTED FOR,

YOU KNOW, A FIRST TIME FELONY

DRUG CRIME, THAT'S AN AWFUL LOT

OF TIME TO BE SEGREGATED FROM

SOCIETY AND ESPECIALLY IF THAT

INDIVIDUAL ISN'T GETTING JOB

TRAINING, TREATMENT,

REHABILITATION, I'M DEEPLY

CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THAT PERSON

IS GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN HE OR

SHE REENTERS SOCIETY.

>> Renee: WHAT IS THE NEXT LEG,

IN KENTUCKY.

LET'S GO BACK TO KENTUCKY.

KENTUCKY, YOU KNOW, NOW LAW SB

120, DOINTD KNOW-- I DON'T KNOW

THE EXACT TITLE OF THE ACT BUT

THAT'S NOW LAW.

ARE THERE CONVERSATIONS NOW

HAPPENING ABOUT THE THINGS THAT

DIDN'T MAKE IT IN INT 120 FOR A

BUDGETARY SESSION AND ALL THE

OTHER THINGS THAT COULD BE

HAPPENING IN 2018.

>> THAT'S THE PERFECT TIME TO

HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, YOU

KNOW, DURING A TIME WHEN

EVERYBODY IS SCRAPPING FOR EVERY

DOLLAR, YOU KNOW, EDUCATION,

INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS,

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, NOW IS THE

TIME TO TALK ABOUT SAFELY

REDUCING THE PRISON AND JAIL

POPULATION IN KENTUCKY JAILS

ESPECIALLY OR SERIOUS OVERCROWD

ING ISSUES IS REALLY A

PUBLIC SAFETY CONCERN BUT I

THINK BAIL REFORM IS THE NEXT

STEP.

AS I MENTIONED YOU HAVE ALL OF

THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE

ACCUSED, NOT CONVICTED, ACCUSED

OF LOW LEVEL NON-VIOLENT CRIMES

WHO ARE SITTING BEHIND BARS

MERELY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY

THEIR BAIL, MEANWHILE VIOLENT

OFFENDERS WHO CAN POST BAIL ARE

GETTING OUT.

I MEAN TO ME THAT'S NOT PROMOT

ING PUBLIC SAFETY.

THAT'S JUST ALL ABOUT WHOEVER

HAS THE MONEY GETS THE JUSTICE.

AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY OUR

ORGANIZATION PROGRESSIVE AND

CONSERVATIVES INVOLVED WITH IT

FEEL THE JUSTICE SYSTEM SHOULD

BE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.

>> Renee: HOUSE BILL 333 THAT

WAS PASSED HAS BECOME LAW THAT

WOULD CRIMINALIZE TRAFFICKING

ANY AMOUNT OF HEROIN, FENTANYL,

MANY PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED THAT

WAS A RETREAT FROM DRUG CODE

REFORM 2011-2013.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE

IMPACT THAT COULD HAVE FROM

WHERE YOU SIT THAT PERHAPS, YOU

KNOW, WE, THE CONVENTIONAL THINK

ING HAS BEEN ABOUT THE

ADDICTS GET INTO PEDDLING TO

FEED THEIR HABIT, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> Renee: THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO

GET THEIR OWN HIGH BECAUSE OF

THEIR ADDICTION AND DISEASE.

ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT WILL

IMPACT THE CORRECTIONS BUDGET

AND REVERSE THE POSITIVE

MOVEMENT YOU THINK YOU ARE

MAKING WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE

REFORM EFFORT?

>> WHAT CONCERNS ME IS THAT WE

ARE NOT HITTING THE MANUFACTUR

ERS AND THE IMPORTERS.

THOSE ARE THE INDIVIDUALS WHO

ARE LACING THE HEROIN WITH

FENTANYL WHICH IS INCREDIBLY

DANGEROUS.

THAT'S LIKE PLAYING RUSSIAN

ROULETTE AND SO WHILE I

UNDERSTAND LET'S HIT THE TRAFFIC

KERS.

LET'S UNDERSTAND WHAT A TRAFFIC

KER IS.

YOU KNOW, IN SOME STATES LIKE,

FOR EXAMPLE, IN OHIO, IN ORDER

TO BE A TRAFFICKER OF HEROIN YOU

ONLY HAVE TO HAVE A GRAHAM OF

HEROIN ON YOU.

WELL, YOU KNOW, THEN EVERYBODY

IS A TRAFFICKER AND SO I THINK

WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN

DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THOSE

INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SICK AND WHO

GET CAUGHT UP IN THE DRUG TRADE

BECAUSE AGAIN IT'S PART OF

FEEDING THEIR ADDICTION AND

THOSE WHO ARE TRULY TRYING TO

DRIVE THE DRUG TRADE IN THIS

COUNTRY.

AGAIN WE ARE NOT HITTING THE

IMPORTERS OR ADDRESSING THIS

THROUGH THE IMMIGRATION REFORMS

THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT

NOW AND TO ME THAT IS THE

BIGGEST ISSUE.

>> Renee: SURE, TALK ABOUT BEING

ALL CONNECTED.

SPEAKING OF THAT MEASURE THAT

PASSED, KIM MOSER, A BIG BACKER

OF THE BILL, REPRESENTATIVE KIM

MOSER FROM NORTHERN KENTUCKY

NURSE, MOTHER, GRANDMOTHER,

CONSERVATIVE.

AND SHE WROTE A VERY POIGNANT

PIECE IN THE CINCINNATI PAPER

SAYING WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT WHY

WOMEN ARE BEHIND BARS AND THE

DRIVERS FOR THEM BEING THERE AND

HAD WRITTEN THAT IN KENTUCKY IN

2015, THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN

PRISONS GREW BY 25%, FIVE TIMES

THE RATE OF MEN AND THAT

SUBSTANCE ABUSE IS THE MAIN

REASON FOR THAT.

>> I WAS INDREADBLY PROUD OF HER

I DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW HER THAT

WELL.

I MET HER DURING MY TIME 234

KENTUCKY WHEN SHE RAN FOR OFFICE

AFTER I HAD MOVED TO D.C. AND

SHE WAS INCREDIBLE.

THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT

WENT TO HER BREAKOUT SESSION

WHERE SHE SAT ON A PANEL WITH

FORMERLY INCARCERATED WOMEN AND

CLEARLY KNOWS THESE ISSUES VERY

WELL, UNDERSTANDS ADDICTION AND

WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING IN

TERMS OF TREATMENT AND

REHABILITATIVE SERVICES.

EVERYONE AROUND IS SAYING SHE IS

FROM KENTUCKY?

YES, SHE IS MY HOME STATE.

AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE

BIG THINGS OUT OF HER IN THE

FUTURE.

>> Renee: AND THE FACT THAT WELL

MAYBE, YOU KNOW, AND SHE SEEMS

TO BE EVEN THOUGH SHE IS JUST A

FRESHMAN, CERTAINLY SHE HAD RAY

BIG BILL.

>> SHE DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A

FRESHMAN.

>> Renee: SHE DOESN'T.

HOPEFULLY WE'LL HAVE HER ON VERY

SOON TO TALK ABOUT HER CAREER

AND SOME OF THE THINGS SHE IS

WORKING ON BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE

PER THAPS THIS MIGHT BE AN ISSUE

SHE MIGHT TAKE UP IN 2018.

>> I THINK SHE IS VERY INTEREST

ED IN THIS.

YOU KNOW AND AGAIN SHE IS VERY

KNOWLEDGEABLE.

SHE HAS A HEALTHCARE BACKGROUND,

AND BECAUSE OF I THINK HER

INVOLVEMENT IN THE OFFICE OF

DRUG CONTROL POLICY, SHE IS JUST

, I THINK HAS A HANDLE ON

LIKE REALLY WHAT ARE THE DRIVERS

ARE INCARCERATION, PARTICULARLY

HERE IN KENTUCKY.

YOU KNOW THIS RENEE, EVERY

SINGLE KENTUCKY FAMILY HAS

SOMEHOW BEEN BY THE DRUG

SCOURGE AND SO I DON'T THINK ANY

OF THOSE FAMILIES WOULD WANT TO

US THROW IN THE TOWEL ON THEIR

FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS SICK.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR GOVERNOR

BEVIN TALK ABOUT THIS ALL THE

TIME.

EVERYBODY CAN BE REDEEMED.

AND I THINK SHE IS A FIRM

BELIEVER IN THAT AS WELL.

>> Renee: AND HE HAS MADE SOME

ACTIONS REDEEMING ACTIONS FOR

FORMER FELONS, YOU KNOW, BAN THE

STATE BOX ON THE APPLICATION.

AND FOR FELONS.

AND IT SEEMS TO BE GOING FURTHER

DO YOU THINK THAT THE NEXT STEP

FOR KENTUCKY FOR FELON REENTRY

NEXT LOGICAL STEP WOULD BE

AUTOMATIC RESTORATION OF VOTING

RIGHTS?

>> I THINK THAT IT WILL

CERTAINLY BE ON THE TABLE.

>> FOR NON VIOLENCE.

>> I'M SURE THAT'S ON THE TABLE

FOR OUR ORGANIZATION OUR BIGGEST

CONCERN IS ENSURING THESE

INDIVIDUALS HAVE JOBS.

BECAUSE A JOB IS, I THINK, YOU

KNOW, THE GREATEST WALL BETWEEN

A FORMER OFFENDER RETURNING TO A

LIFE OF CRIME AND THERE ARE A

LOT OF STATES THAT ARE DOING

SOME REALLY INTERESTING THINGS

WITH JOB TRAINING.

IT'S REAL INTERESTING.

THE KENTUCKY MANUFACTURERS

ASSOCIATION HAD BEEN LAMENTING

THE DIRTH OF SKILLED LABOR IN

KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS A LOT OF JOBS WHERE

THEY CAN'T FIND INDIVIDUALS TO

FILL THESE JOBS AND THESE ARE

GOOD WELL PAYING JOBS.

YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD BE SHOCKED

AT HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND A PIPE

FITTER SO I THINK MARRYING THE

MARKET, THE JOBS THAT ARE

AVAILABLE IN THE MARKET TO THE

JOB TRAINING THAT A LOT OF THESE

INMATES ARE RECEIVING, I THINK

IS CRITICAL.

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO GREAT TO

SEE THE CHAMBER AND A LOT OF THE

BUSINESS GROUPS VERY INVOLVED

AND YOU SEE LIKE DON BALL WITH

BALL HOMES WHO WROTE A VERY

POIGNANT OP-ED IN SUPPORT OF

SENATE BILL 120.

MAC BROWN WHO IS THE CHAIR OF

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF KENTUCKY

, BEFORE THAT, YOU KNOW,

HE WROTE AN OP-ED, I BELIEVE IT

WAS IN THE COURIER IN SUPPORT OF

THE EXPUNGEMENT BILL THAT DID

EVENTUALLY PASS.

SO YOU HAVE THESE REALLY

CONSERVATIVE BUSINESS LEADERS

WHO ARE NOW GETTING OUT THERE

AND SAYING LOOK, WE'VE GOT A

DIRTH OF SKILLED LABOR, WE COULD

HELP TO TRAIN THIS INMATE

POPULATION AND NOT ONLY WILL

THAT HELP US, YOU KNOW, IN

FINDING SKILLED LABORERS AND

BROADEN THE POOL OF SKILLED

LABORERS BUT HAVE A POSITIVE

IMPACT ON FEDERAL SAFETY.

>> ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL, ONE

MINUTE, OH PLY GOSH, WHAT IS THE

ONE MEASURE YOU WOULD WANT TO

GET THROUGH IN THE NEXT, WELL

THIS CURRENT SESSION OF CONGRESS

>> WELL THERE IS A BILL THAT WAS

RECENTLY FILED BY REPRESENTATIVE

DOUG COLLINS, THE PRISON REFORM

BILL THAT IS THE BACK REFORMS

ENSURING VOCATIONAL REHABILITAT

IVE SERVICES,

INTRODUCED IT YESTERDAY BUT

THERE IS A BILL VERY FEW PEOPLE

ARE TALKING ABOUT, THE COREY

BOOKER FILED, TURN BACK THE

CLOCK ON THE 94 CRIME BILL AND

INCENTIVIZE STATES RATHER THAN

INCENTIVIZING THEM FOR BUILDING

MORE PRISONS, BUT TO SAFELY

REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATIONS

AND THE INCENTIVES WOULD BE BAS

ED ON THOSE STATES THAT LOWER

THEIR CRIME RATES AND LOWER THE

RECIDIVISM.

A GREAT BILL.

>> Renee: YOU CAN TELL SHE HAS

DONE TV.

SHE LOOKS AT THE CLOCK AND KNOWS

SHE HAS TO STOP TALKING.

I'M VERY PROUD OF YOU AND THE

WAY YOU REPRESENT KENTUCKY AND

THE ELOQUENCE YOU BRING TO YOUR

ISSUE AND THE PASSION YOU BRING

TO IT.

SO CONGRATULATIONS AND WELCOME

HOME.

>> I THIS GREAT TEACHERS.

>> Renee: I WASN'T YOUR TEACHER

BUT GLAD TO CALL YOU FRIEND AND

GLAD YOU ARE BACK HOME AND DOING

GREAT WORK ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HOLLY HARRIS.

REMEMBER THAT NAME.

JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK WHO IS

SHE REPRESENTS, EXECUTIVE

DIRECTOR.

WE ARE GLAD SHE WAS WITH US.

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