>> Renee: THERE IS A GROWING
WAVE OF AGREEMENT THAT THE
GROWING NUMBER OF WOMEN BEHIND
BARS NEEDS DESPERATE ATTENTION.
WHILE THE DRAMA WEB SERIES
"ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK" HAS
ENRAPTURED VIEWERS, THE PROBLEMS
OF FEMALE PRISONERS AND THE
REASONS THEY'RE LOCKED UP IN THE
FIRST PLACE SOME BELIEVE SHOULD
TAKE A MORE PROMINENT PLACE IN
DEBATES ABOUT MASSIVE
INCARCERATION AND CRIMINAL
JUSTICE REFORM.
KENTUCKIAN HOLLY HARRIS WITH THE
JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK IS TRYING
TO ELEVATE THAT CONVERSATION AND
SHE TELLS US ALL ABOUT IT NOW ON
"CONNECTIONS."
THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR "
CONNECTIONS" TODAY.
I'M RENEE SHAW.
IN 1970 FEWER THAN 8,000 WOMEN
WERE IN JAIL.
TODAY, OVER 100,000 ARE BEHIND
BARS.
MANY OF THOSE WOMEN HAVE A
SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS AND MOST
HAVE A HISTORY OF DRUG OR
ALCOHOL ABUSE.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IS THE
PASSION OF TODAY'S GUEST WHO IS
THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE
U.S. JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK THAT
IS THE FIRST ORGANIZATION OF ITS
KIND TO BRING TOGETHER PROGRESS
IVE AND CONSERVATIVE
POLICY MAKERS AND PARTNERS TO
REFORM THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM.
WE WANT TO SAY WELCOME HOME,
HOLLY HARRIS.
>> INGS THAT.
LIKE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN.
>> Renee: YOU SHOULD BE A
FAMILIAR FACE TO MANY WHO YOU
SAID IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO ALMOST
WHEN YOU USED TO BE ON THE TV
AIR WAVES IN LEXINGTON ON THE
CBS AFFILIATE THEN YOU WENT ON
AND I USED TO SEE YOU IN THE
CAPITOL HALLS, GENERAL COUNSEL
FOR THE SENATE PRESIDENT.
YOU HAVE DONE LOTS OF
INTERESTING THINGS IN YOUR LIFE.
>> WHEN I'M UP IN D.C., I GET
ASKED ALL THE TIME, IS IT A
DIFFERENT TRANSITION FOR YOU TO
BE IN THIS ACIDIC POLITICAL
ENVIRONMENT.
I SAY I'M FROM KENTUCKY.
I WAS WELL PREPARED.
I FEEL LIKE YOU AND BILL AND
EVERYBODY HERE AT KET, I MEAN
EVERYBODY HERE ALL PROS AND SO,
D.C. WAS NOTHING FOR ME.
>> Renee: WE PREPARED YOU WELL.
WE'LL TAKE SOME CREDIT.
I DID IT ALL ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT
ANY HELP FROM US.
TELL US HOW YOU REALLY GOT
INVOLVED WITH CRIMINAL JUSTICE
REFORM AND THE JUSTICE ACTION
NETWORK WHAT DREW TO YOU THIS
LINE OF WORK AND TELL US ABOUT
THE ORGANIZATION IN AND OF
ITSELF?
>> I STARTED MY LEGAL CAREER AS
A LAWYER FOR THE JUSTICE CABINET
I ACTUALLY WROTE THE BRIEF
DEFENDING THE LETHAL INJECTION
PROTOCOL.
WHEN YOU ARE YOUNG, THE WORLD IS
VERY BLACK AND WHITE AND THERE
IS RIGHT AND WRONG AND AS YOU
GET OLDER AND MAKE SOME MISTAKES
YOURSELF WHICH I'VE MADE A FEW,
YOU BECOME FAR MORE TOLERANT AND
, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY A
PROPONENT OF SECOND CHANCES.
I'VE CERTAINLY BENEFITED FROM
SECOND CHANCES AND SO, YOU KNOW,
I'VE GROWN IN THAT REGARD, BUT
YOU KNOW, I CAME OUT, AS YOU
KNOW, OF A VERY DIFFICULT
GOVERNOR'S RACE AND WAS REALLY
LOOKING FOR A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE
AND I REALLY WANTED TO DO
SOMETHING WHERE I COULD FEEL
LIKE I WAS IMPACTING PEOPLE IN A
POSSIBLE-- POSITIVE WAY.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM WAS RIS
ING UP AS THE NEXT BIG ISSUE
WHERE WE COULD FIND SOLUTIONS IN
THIS COUNTRY AND WE'VE HAD A
GREAT RUN AT THE JUSTICE ACTION
NETWORK THE LAST TWO YEARS.
I FEEL REALLY LUCKY TO WORK IN
THIS BASE.
>> YOU ARE WORKING WITH PROGRESS
IVE AND CONSERVATIVE
VOICES.
WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK IT.
NEWT NEWT, RAND PAUL HAS COME
OUT ON SOME THINGS LIKE THE
MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES.
YOU HAVE PEOPLE HO HAVE FOUND
POLITICAL COMMON GROUND.
EVERYTHING GETS TAINTED BY
POLITICS, DO YOU THINK THIS
POLITICAL ISSUE IS FREER OF SOME
OF THE OTHER POLITICAL
IMPERATIVES WHERE POLITICIANS
MIGHT FALL OUT.
>> I FEEL LIKE IT'S THE LAST
SACRED SPACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE
STILL REACH AGO CROSS THE AISLE.
WE HAD AN EVENT IN WASHINGTON
D.C. CALLED WOMEN UNSHACKLED
WHERE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE
ISSUES YOU WERE DISCUSSES.
AS YOU MENTIONED, COREY BOOKER
WHO TOOK THE STAGE.
CONGRESSMAN DOUG COLLINS FROM
GEORGIA STAUNCH CONSERVATIVE,
YOU KNOW, PROGRESSIVE FORMER
ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM CALIFORNIA
, SO AND WE DID THIS
BY DESIGN, YOU KNOW.
WE WENT RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT
, RIGHT BECAUSE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE REFORM IS AN ISSUE THAT
IS, IT'S NOT A PROGRESSIVE OR
CONSERVATIVE ISSUE.
IT'S AN AMERICAN ISSUE.
WE FIND OURSELVES IN THIS
COUNTRY, WE ARE NOW IN A PLACE
WHERE ONE IN THREE AMERICAN
ADULTS HAS A CRIMINAL RECORD.
ONE IN THREE.
I SAY GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAY,
LOOK TOE YOUR LEFT, TO YOUR
RIGHT, ODDS ARE ONE OF THEM HAVE
HAD A BRUSH WITH THE LAW.
I GO TO PROM PROMINENT
PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CHURCH AND
PEOPLE COME UP TO ME, MOST OF
THEM FELON, BECAUSE THEY GET KET
AND THEY'RE REALLY TRYING 2K0
THE RIGHT THING.
SO WHEN YOU INTERACT WITH FELONS
WHICH YOU KNOW HAS BEEN A CURSE
WORD, YOU REALLY SEE THE
HUMANITY OF THIS PERSON
REGARDLESS OF PERHAPS WHAT THEY
DID WAS WRONG AND I'M NOT
EXCUSING THAT BUT YOU SEE THE
HUMANITY OF WHO THEY ARE.
>> AND I BRING SOME GOOD NEWS.
I'VE BEEN ON SEVERAL CALLS
RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, WE HELPED TO
FUND A LOT OF THE GROUPS OUT
THERE THAT ARE WORKING IN THIS
SPACE BOTH ON THE RIGHT AND ON
THE LEFT AND IT'S REALLY
INTERESTING.
EVERYBODY IS WANTING TO WORK IN
KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW.
>> Renee: KENTUCKY IS DOING IT
BIG WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE?
>> WE REALLY HAVE DONE A
PHENOMENAL JOB HERE.
LOUISIANA JUST PASSED A TON OF
REFORMS.
GEORGIA IS ACCOMPLISHED IN THE
THIS SPACE BUT IT'S GREAT TO SEE
KENTUCKY AS EMERGING AS ONE OF
THE STATES THAT REALLY FORWARD
THINKING WITH RESPECT TO
CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM POLICIES
SO I'M PROUD OF THAT.
>> Renee: I GUESS MANY PEOPLE
WOULD WONDER WHEN DID THE SHIFT
COME?
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE HEAR ABOUT
VERY MUCH LAW AND ORDER STATES.
WE THINK OF TEXAS, SOME STOP AND
FRISK POLICIES THAT NEW YORK HAD
IMPLEMENTED.
SO WE THINK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE
POLICIES THAT HAPPENED IN THESE
OTHER STATES BUT YET THERE SEEMS
TO BE STATES LIKE KENTUCKY,
LOUISIANA, ALL THESE OTHER
STATES THAT ARE TAKING A TURN
FROM LAW AND ORDER OR IS THERE A
BALANCE BECAUSE THERE IS SOME
FEAR AS YOU'VE HEARD FROM SOME
OF OUR OWN KENTUCKY SENATORS, WE
DON'T WANT TO GIVE TOO MANY
SYMPATHY TO THOSE WHO COMMIT
CRIMES THAT SOMEHOW WE ARE
VICTIMIZING THE CRIMINALS.
SO WHERE IS THE TURN IN THINKING
ABOUT WHY CRIMINAL JUSTICE
REFORM MAKES SENSE?
>> I THINK IT'S TWO ISSUES.
THE FIRST IS THAT THESE REFORMS
ACTUALLY PROMOTE PUBLIC SAFETY.
IF YOU WERE IN FAVOR OF LAW AND
ORDER, CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM
IS WHERE YOU SHOULD BE.
THESE REFORMS HAVE PROVEN...
>> Renee: IT'S NOT ANTITHETICAL
TO LAW AND ORDER.
>> OF COURSE NOT.
TO ME WHAT LAW AND ORDER SHOULD
MEAN IS LOWERING CRIME RATES,
LOWERING RECIDIVIST VISM RATES
AND ENSURING THAT WE ARE PROMOT
ING PUBLIC SAFETY IN OUR
COMMUNITIES WHICH IS WHAT THESE
REFORMS HAVE PROVEN DO.
SO YOU KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN
DOING IN THE PAST IS WE'VE JUST
BEEN THROWING A LOT OF LOW LEVEL
NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS, MANY OF
WHOM WHO HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES,
MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, MANY
INDIVIDUALS HAVE SUFFERED SEVERE
TRAUMA AND HAVE BEEN SELF
MEDICATING AND THAT LITTLE HOW
THEY GET INVOLVED WITH ADDICTION
WHICH LEADS THEM TO THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND WE THROW THEM BEHIND
BARS WITH SOME BAD PEOPLE, YOU
KNOW.
I MEAN I SHOULD MENTION THAT,
THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN THIS
WORLD WHO DESERVE TO BE BEHIND
BARS AND SEGREGATED FROM SOCIETY
BUT WHEN YOU PUT THESE GROUPS
TOGETHER, AND THEN WE ARE NOT
PROVIDING JOB TRAINING, WE ARE
NOT GIVING THESE INDIVIDUALS
COUNSELING OR TREATMENT, WE ARE
NOT ADDRESSING THE CORE ISSUES
THAT LED THEM TO THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM TO BEGIN WITH SO WHAT
HAPPENS?
THEY GET OUT.
THEY CAN'T FIND JOBS, THEY CAN'T
FIND ADEQUATE HOUSING, THEY
CAN'T IMPROVE THEIR EDUCATION.
SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
RETURN TO CRIME, RETURN TO
PRISON.
WE ARE IN SAFER.
WE ARE THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER
BAD AND THAT'S THE CYCLE OF
FAILURE.
>> SO WOULD IT BE THAT THE
MONETARY IMPERATIVE TOOK
PRECEDENCE THAT SPENDING, IT
USED TO BE IN KENTUCKY THE
FIGURE WAS $22,000 AN INMATE.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S HIGHER.
>> THAT'S CONSERVATIVE.
>> Renee: PROBABLY MUCH MORE
THAN THAT NOW.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BUDGETARY
LINE OF WHAT THE CORRECTIONS
BUDGET, HOW MUCH IT CONSUMES IN
THE STATE BUDGET HERE OR
ANYWHERE ELSE, WAS THAT THE KIND
OF GIETDING POSTIN' GUIDING POST
BECAUSE WE HAVE DO SOMETHING
BECAUSE IT'S TAKING TOO MUCH OF
OUR DOLLARS FROM EDUCATION AND
OTHER SYSTEMS THAT WOULD KEEP
THEM FROM BEING INTO THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
>> THE PUBLIC SAFETY IMPACT, THE
BOTTOM LINE, I MEAN WE FIND
OURSELVES REALLY, I MEAN IN
KENTUCKY, THE TERRIBLE PENSION
CRISIS.
WE ARE LOOKING TO DO TAX REFORM,
LOOKING FOR WAYS TO, YOU KNOW,
SHORE UP SOME MORE REVENUE AND
TRY TO, YOU KNOW, PAY DOWN THIS
TERRIBLE DEBT AND ONE OF THE WAY
S WE CERTAINLY COULD BE DOING
THAT IS BY SAFELY REDUCING THE
JAIL AND PRISON POPULATION.
AND HERE IS A STATISTIC.
THIS ALWAYS SHOCKS PEOPLE WHEN I
MENTION THIS.
BUT RIGHT NOW IN KENTUCKY, WE
HAVE ROUGHLY 37,000 INDIVIDUALS,
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS
WHO ARE ACCUSED OF LOW LEVEL
NON-VIOLENT CRIMES WHO SIT
BEHIND BARS FOR AN AVERAGE OF
107 DAYS AT A COST TO THE
TAXPAYERS OF $30 A DAY SO
ROUGHLY $127 MILLION A YEAR AND
THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE BEHIND
BARS, THEY'VE NOT BEEN CONVICTED
THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE BEHIND
BARS IS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MAKE
THEIR BAIL.
MEANWHILE, LAST YEAR IN KENTUCKY
, JUST OVER 800 VIOLENT
ON TBENDERS, INDIVIDUALS ACCUSED
OF VIOLENT CRIMES DID MAKE BAIL.
THEY'RE OUT AND THE LOW LEVEL
NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS ARE
SITTING BEHIND BARS, LOSING
THEIR JOBS, NO ONE IS CARING FOR
THEIR CHILDREN.
WE NEED TO MAKE FUNDAMENTAL
CHANGES.
>> SENATE BILL 120 THAT IS LAW,
THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM BILL
THAT PASSED IN 2017 DIDN'T
ADDRESS THE ISSUE YOU RAISED.
THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
CAME OFF THE TABLE.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> AND SO WHY WAS THAT?
I MEAN AND IS THERE SOME
MOVEMENT INTO TO CHANGE THAT
THINKING, WHAT IS THE TERM, NO
BAIL OR WHATEVER?
IS THERE A CHANGING THINKING
ABOUT THAT?
>> I THINK WE NEED NEEDED TO DO
MORE EDUCATION AND WE NEEDED TO
ENSURE THAT MEMBERS OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT WERE AT THE TABLE AT
THE END OF SESSION.
WE WERE WORKING SO CLOSELY WITH
THE SHERIFFS AND THE JAILERS.
IT IS REALLY A LOT OF THE LOCAL
ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT HAVE SO
MUCH POWER AT THE LEGISLATURE.
YOU KNOW THIS, IF YOU GET A CALL
FROM YOUR JAILER OR YOUR SHERIFF
, YOU ARE GOING TO PAY
ATTENTION TO THAT.
AND I THINK ONCE WE, YOU KNOW,
WHY ABLE TO COORDINATE AND SMART
ON CRIME COALITION CAME TOGETHER
, THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
PAC THAT THE ORGANIZATION, THE
POLICY ASSESSMENT COUNCIL THAT
THE GOVERNOR PUT TOGETHER, WHEN
ALL OF THOSE GROUPS WERE
COORDINATING AND WORKING
TOGETHER I I THINK THINGS START
ED WORKING BEAUTIFULLY BUT
IN THE BEGINNING WHEN YOU ARE
TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER THE
REFORMS, I THINK THERE IS A
LEARNING CURVE AND I THINK IT
WAS REALLY HELPFUL TO START TALK
ING ABOUT WHAT HAD WORKED IN
STATES LIKE TEXAS, GEORGIA,
SOUTH CAROLINA, AND WHEN YOU,
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU START TALKING
ABOUT HOW THESE REFORMS HAVE
LOWERED CRIME RATES, RECIDIVISM
RATES AND SAVED HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, THAT'S
COMPELLING.
>> Renee: ONE OF THE THINGS WE
CONSTANTLY HEARD DURING THE
COMMITTEE TESTIMONY OR PRESS
CONFERENCE, THE GOVERNOR SAID IT
HIMSELF, 95% OF THOSE WHO ARE IN
JAIL ARE GOING TO COME OUT.
THEY'RE GOING TO GET OUT.
SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM DO WHEN
THEY GET OUT?
YOU WANT THEM TO HAVE GOOD JOB
SKILLS THEY LEARN BEHIND BARS
THEY CAN PLY WHEN THEY GET ON
THE.
LIFT SOME OF THE ARBITRARY
LICENSING BARRIERS WHERE THEY
COULDN'T GET PROFESSIONAL
CERTIFICATIONS AND OTHER THINGS
TO HELP THEM FIND EMPLOYMENT.
THERE IS A LOT OF BARRIER LIFT
ING THAT SENATE BILL 120 DID
TO HELP FELONS SUCCESSFULLY RE
ENTER INTO SOCIETY.
NOT ABOUT BEING SOFT ON CRIME
BUT ABOUT BEING RIGHT OR SMART
ON CRIME.
>> SURE, IT'S ALSO ABOUT PROMOT
ING FAMILIES.
YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE
EPIDEMIC OF INCARCERATED WOMEN.
OVER THE PAST FEW DECADES,
POPULATION OF INCARS INCARCERAT
ED WOMEN HAS INCREASED
744%, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE
INDIVIDUALS ARE MOTHERS.
DO YOU KNOW KENTUCKY HAS THE
HIGHEST RATE OF CHILDREN WHO
HAVE HAD AN INCARCERATED PARENT
IN THE ENTIRE NATION.
I MEAN THAT'S HEART BREAKING.
AND SO I THINK WHEN YOU START
TALKING ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF
LIKE HOW IT IMPACTS THE FAMILY
AND, YOU KNOW, HOW IT DEVASTATES
, YOU KNOW, THE
CHILDREN OF INCARCERATED PARENTS
, THOSE CHILDREN ARE FIVE
TIMES MORE LIKELY TO ENTER THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM THEMSELVES THAN
OTHER CHILDREN.
SO WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT
IT IN TERMS OF LIKE HOW IT
IMPACTS THE FAMILY, AND YOU
MARRY THAT TO THE POSITIVE
PUBLIC SAFETY IMPACT AND THE
COST SAVINGS, YOU KNOW, IT'S
REALLY HARD TO COUNTER THOSE
ARGUMENT.
>> Renee: AND HOW THERE IS A LOT
OF INTERSECTIONALITY BETWEEN THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, SOCIAL
SERVICES SYSTEM, THE WEIGHT THAT
WE PUT ON THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM
IN SCHOOLS TO HELP SUPPORT THESE
KIDS, ALL OF IT IS CONNECTED,
YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ONE THING
ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE IN PUBLIC
POLICY, YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE
OF BEING ABLE TO CONNECT THE DOT
S.
THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT IT,
NOTHING IS JUST AN ISLAND.
IT ALL HAPPENS.
AND I WANT TO GET TO YOUR POINT
ABOUT, INCARCERATED WOMEN, MORE
THAN 60% OF WOMEN IN JAIL OR
PRISON HAVE A CHILD UNDER THE
AGE OF 18.
MANY OF THEM SINGLE SUPPOSER, A
LOT OF THEM MAY HAVE HAD
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ISSUES IN
THEIR PAST, MENTAL ILLNESS, SO
THE QUESTION IS THOUGH, PEOPLE
WOULD SAY EVERYBODY'S GOT
SOMETHING.
RIGHT, ARE WE EXCUSING THE FACT
THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES
BEHAVIOR DOES START WITH A
CHOICE.
AND THAT MANY PEEP COME FROM
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MAY HAVE
THOSE DUAL DIAGNOSIS OF MENTAL
ILLNESS AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE BUT
THEY DON'T COMMIT CRIME.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> I'M SO GLAD YOU RAISED THIS
BECAUSE I WAS GETTING PUSH BACK
FROM OTHER FOLKS.
WHY WOULD WE TREAT WOMEN
DIFFERENTLY FROM MEN?
AND THAT'S REALLY NOT THE POINT
OF OF HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.
CERTAIN WILL I WE NEED TO
UNDERSTAND THE DRIVERS OF FEMALE
INCARCERATION.
WHEN YOU HAVE A POPULATION THAT
IS EXPLODED 744% OVER THE LAST
FEW DECADES AND NO ONE IS
TALKING ABOUT IT, WE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS HAPPENING
AND WE HAVE IS TO START BEING
PROACTIVE ABOUT WHAT WEEK DO TO
HELP SOME OF THESE WOMEN.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN
INCARCERATED ARE MOTHERS.
MANY OF THEM, MOST OF THEM
RATHER HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES OR
A MENTAL ILLNESS.
THE OTHER ISSUE THAT YOU DON'T
SEE AS MUCH IN MEN IS THAT MANY
OF THESE WOMEN HAVE BEEN VICTIMS
OF A SEVERE TRAUMA, SEXUAL ABUSE
, EMOTIONAL ABUSE, MENTAL
ABUSE.
MANY OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE BEHIND
BARS FOR VIOLENT OFFENSES
ACTUALLY COMMITTED VIOLENCE
AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD
BEEN VIOLENT TOWARDS THEM.
THESE ARE NOT THE SAME ISSUES AS
WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH THE
MALE INCARCERATION INCARCERATED
POPULATION.
SO WHAT WOULD I SAY IS THAT
SHOULD YOU TREAT MEN AND WOMEN
DIFFERENTLY, YES.
MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT AND
CERTAINLY WITH RESPECT TO THE
PROGRAMMING THAT WE ARE PROVID
ING IN PRISON AND THE
COUNSELING AND THE TREATMENT AND
HOW WE WOULD ADDRESS WOMEN WHO
HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF SEXUAL
ABUSE, WHO THEN TURN TO
ADDICTION TO HELP SELF MEDICATE
TO DEAL WITH THAT TRAUMA, AND
THEN, YOU KNOW, THOSE
INDIVIDUALS, THAT'S WHAT LEADS
THEM TO THESE BAD DECISIONS THAT
LEADS THEM TO THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
CERTAINLY I THINK WE SHOULD BE
PROVIDING COUNSELING, TREATMENT,
REHABILITATIVE SERVICES TO THESE
INDIVIDUALS BECAUSE AGAIN IF WE
DON'T TREAT THEIR CORE ISSUES,
THEY'RE JUST GOING TO GET OUT,
RECIDIVATE AND GO BACK TO PRISON
>> Renee: AND AS YOU MENTIONED
FROM DEMOCRATIC SENATORS CAMILLA
HARRIS, REPUBLICAN MIA LOVE,
UTAH GOVERNOR, MARY FALLON,
THERE IS BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT
ABOUT THE ISSUE.
WE HAVE DONE A FEW PROGRAMS
ABOUT ADVERSE CHILDHOOD
EXPERIENCES, TRAUMA THAT AFFECTS
DECISION MAKING THAT IS ON THIS
SIDE OF THE FREEDOM OF THE BARS
OR ELSEWHERE.
SO LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW,
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND
PARTICULARLY THE PIECE ABOUT,
YOU KNOW, THERE IS A BILL, YOU
KNOW VERY WELL, DIGNITY FOR
INCARCERATED WOMEN ACT, COREY
BOOKER, ELIZABETH WARREN,
RICHARD DURBIN, THIS ADDRESSES
THE FACT THAT WOMEN WOULD BE
SHACKLED DURING PREGNANCY, AFTER
PREGNANCY.
>> DURING LABOR.
THERE ARE MANY STATES FOR THE
SHACKLING OF PREGNANT WOMEN AS
THEY'RE DELIVERING A BABY.
NOW AS SOMEONE WHO HAS IN FACT
BEEN THROUGH LABOR, I CAN'T
IMAGINE HOW YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO
ESCAPE WHILE GIVING BIRTH TO A
CHILD, YOU KNOW, AND CERTAINLY
WE FEEL LIKE THAT'S UNNECESSARY,
YOU KNOW.
AND SO THE CONFERENCE THAT WE
JUST HAD IN WASHINGTON D.C.
ADDRESSED THAT ISSUE IN
PARTICULAR BUT THEN ALSO A LOT
OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT WOMEN
HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
I MEAN AGAIN, WOMEN HAVE
DIFFERENT HEALTH NEEDS THAN MEN.
DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE IN FOUR
WOMEN INTERESTERRING-- ENTERING
OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM IS EITHER
PREGNANT OR THE MOTHER OF A
CHILD UNDER THE AGE OF ONE.
25% OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE ENTER
ING OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.
I MOON IF THAT-- I MEAN IF THAT
DOESN'T CONCERN YOU, THERE IS A
REAL PROBLEM THERE.
AND...
>> Renee: DO WE KNOW IF THE
SENTENCES IS THERE A DISPARITY
IN SENTENCING BETWEEN WOMEN AND
MEN.
IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED BETWEEN
AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE MARKET
POPULATION WHEN IT CAME TO DRUG
OFFENSES, CRACK COCAINE VS.
POWDER.
DO WE SEE THAT HAPPENING WITH
GENDER?
>> I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT RESEARCH.
BUT CERTAINLY WE HAVE SEEN A LOT
OF UNDULY HARSH SENTENCES FOR
WOMEN WHO HAVE COMMITTED LOW
LEVEL NON-VIOLENT CRIMES
PARTICULARLY DRUG CRIMES.
WOMEN ACT AS MULES FOR MANY OF
THEIR BOYFRIENDS WHO ARE MORE
THE DEALERS AND TRAFFICKERS.
THEY GET CAUGHT UP AND, YOU KNOW
, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, THEY
HAVE TO PLEAD OUT AND MANY OF
THEM ARE SERVING LONGER SENTENCE
S THAN THEIR MALE
COUNTERPARTS WHO HAD DEEPER
INVOLVEMENT IN THE DRUG SCEEP.
AND WE SEE THAT A LOT.
>> AND I GUESS IT'S IMPORTANT TO
COMMUNICATE.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NON-VIOLENT
LOW LEVEL OFFENDERS HERE.
AND SO THERE IS NOT A MOVEMENT
TO SAY THAT WE SHOULD ADDRESS
HOW WE DEAL WITH VIOLENT OFFEND
ERS.
THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR
ORGANIZATION IS TAKING UP.
>> BUT WE GET PUSHBACK SOMETIMES
ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER DRUG
CRIMES ARE VIOLENT CRIMES
BECAUSE DRUG TRADE IS INHERENTLY
VIOLENT AND WOULD I SUBMIT TO
YOU, EVEN IF, YOU KNOW, YOU
ACCEPT THAT ARGUMENT, THE
RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THE LONGER
SENTENCES ARE ACTUALLY HARMFUL
TO PUBLIC SAFETY BECAUSE WHAT
HAPPENS IS THE LONGER THAT THESE
INDIVIDUALS ARE ISOLATED FROM
SOCIETY, THE LESS LIKELY THEY
ARE TO SUCCESSFULLY REENTER, AND
AS YOU MENTIONED BEFORE,
GOVERNOR BEVIN SAYS ALL THE TIME
, 95% OF THESE INDIVIDUALS
ARE GETTING OUT SOME DAY.
SO IF YOU'VE GOT A MANDATORY 10
-YEAR MANDATORY MINIMUM FOR AN
INDIVIDUAL WHO IS BUSTED FOR,
YOU KNOW, A FIRST TIME FELONY
DRUG CRIME, THAT'S AN AWFUL LOT
OF TIME TO BE SEGREGATED FROM
SOCIETY AND ESPECIALLY IF THAT
INDIVIDUAL ISN'T GETTING JOB
TRAINING, TREATMENT,
REHABILITATION, I'M DEEPLY
CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THAT PERSON
IS GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN HE OR
SHE REENTERS SOCIETY.
>> Renee: WHAT IS THE NEXT LEG,
IN KENTUCKY.
LET'S GO BACK TO KENTUCKY.
KENTUCKY, YOU KNOW, NOW LAW SB
120, DOINTD KNOW-- I DON'T KNOW
THE EXACT TITLE OF THE ACT BUT
THAT'S NOW LAW.
ARE THERE CONVERSATIONS NOW
HAPPENING ABOUT THE THINGS THAT
DIDN'T MAKE IT IN INT 120 FOR A
BUDGETARY SESSION AND ALL THE
OTHER THINGS THAT COULD BE
HAPPENING IN 2018.
>> THAT'S THE PERFECT TIME TO
HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT
CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, YOU
KNOW, DURING A TIME WHEN
EVERYBODY IS SCRAPPING FOR EVERY
DOLLAR, YOU KNOW, EDUCATION,
INFRASTRUCTURE IMPROVEMENTS,
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, NOW IS THE
TIME TO TALK ABOUT SAFELY
REDUCING THE PRISON AND JAIL
POPULATION IN KENTUCKY JAILS
ESPECIALLY OR SERIOUS OVERCROWD
ING ISSUES IS REALLY A
PUBLIC SAFETY CONCERN BUT I
THINK BAIL REFORM IS THE NEXT
STEP.
AS I MENTIONED YOU HAVE ALL OF
THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE
ACCUSED, NOT CONVICTED, ACCUSED
OF LOW LEVEL NON-VIOLENT CRIMES
WHO ARE SITTING BEHIND BARS
MERELY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY
THEIR BAIL, MEANWHILE VIOLENT
OFFENDERS WHO CAN POST BAIL ARE
GETTING OUT.
I MEAN TO ME THAT'S NOT PROMOT
ING PUBLIC SAFETY.
THAT'S JUST ALL ABOUT WHOEVER
HAS THE MONEY GETS THE JUSTICE.
AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY OUR
ORGANIZATION PROGRESSIVE AND
CONSERVATIVES INVOLVED WITH IT
FEEL THE JUSTICE SYSTEM SHOULD
BE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.
>> Renee: HOUSE BILL 333 THAT
WAS PASSED HAS BECOME LAW THAT
WOULD CRIMINALIZE TRAFFICKING
ANY AMOUNT OF HEROIN, FENTANYL,
MANY PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED THAT
WAS A RETREAT FROM DRUG CODE
REFORM 2011-2013.
ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE
IMPACT THAT COULD HAVE FROM
WHERE YOU SIT THAT PERHAPS, YOU
KNOW, WE, THE CONVENTIONAL THINK
ING HAS BEEN ABOUT THE
ADDICTS GET INTO PEDDLING TO
FEED THEIR HABIT, RIGHT?
>> YES.
>> Renee: THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO
GET THEIR OWN HIGH BECAUSE OF
THEIR ADDICTION AND DISEASE.
ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT WILL
IMPACT THE CORRECTIONS BUDGET
AND REVERSE THE POSITIVE
MOVEMENT YOU THINK YOU ARE
MAKING WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
REFORM EFFORT?
>> WHAT CONCERNS ME IS THAT WE
ARE NOT HITTING THE MANUFACTUR
ERS AND THE IMPORTERS.
THOSE ARE THE INDIVIDUALS WHO
ARE LACING THE HEROIN WITH
FENTANYL WHICH IS INCREDIBLY
DANGEROUS.
THAT'S LIKE PLAYING RUSSIAN
ROULETTE AND SO WHILE I
UNDERSTAND LET'S HIT THE TRAFFIC
KERS.
LET'S UNDERSTAND WHAT A TRAFFIC
KER IS.
YOU KNOW, IN SOME STATES LIKE,
FOR EXAMPLE, IN OHIO, IN ORDER
TO BE A TRAFFICKER OF HEROIN YOU
ONLY HAVE TO HAVE A GRAHAM OF
HEROIN ON YOU.
WELL, YOU KNOW, THEN EVERYBODY
IS A TRAFFICKER AND SO I THINK
WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN
DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THOSE
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SICK AND WHO
GET CAUGHT UP IN THE DRUG TRADE
BECAUSE AGAIN IT'S PART OF
FEEDING THEIR ADDICTION AND
THOSE WHO ARE TRULY TRYING TO
DRIVE THE DRUG TRADE IN THIS
COUNTRY.
AGAIN WE ARE NOT HITTING THE
IMPORTERS OR ADDRESSING THIS
THROUGH THE IMMIGRATION REFORMS
THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT
NOW AND TO ME THAT IS THE
BIGGEST ISSUE.
>> Renee: SURE, TALK ABOUT BEING
ALL CONNECTED.
SPEAKING OF THAT MEASURE THAT
PASSED, KIM MOSER, A BIG BACKER
OF THE BILL, REPRESENTATIVE KIM
MOSER FROM NORTHERN KENTUCKY
NURSE, MOTHER, GRANDMOTHER,
CONSERVATIVE.
AND SHE WROTE A VERY POIGNANT
PIECE IN THE CINCINNATI PAPER
SAYING WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT WHY
WOMEN ARE BEHIND BARS AND THE
DRIVERS FOR THEM BEING THERE AND
HAD WRITTEN THAT IN KENTUCKY IN
2015, THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN
PRISONS GREW BY 25%, FIVE TIMES
THE RATE OF MEN AND THAT
SUBSTANCE ABUSE IS THE MAIN
REASON FOR THAT.
>> I WAS INDREADBLY PROUD OF HER
I DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW HER THAT
WELL.
I MET HER DURING MY TIME 234
KENTUCKY WHEN SHE RAN FOR OFFICE
AFTER I HAD MOVED TO D.C. AND
SHE WAS INCREDIBLE.
THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT
WENT TO HER BREAKOUT SESSION
WHERE SHE SAT ON A PANEL WITH
FORMERLY INCARCERATED WOMEN AND
CLEARLY KNOWS THESE ISSUES VERY
WELL, UNDERSTANDS ADDICTION AND
WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING IN
TERMS OF TREATMENT AND
REHABILITATIVE SERVICES.
EVERYONE AROUND IS SAYING SHE IS
FROM KENTUCKY?
YES, SHE IS MY HOME STATE.
AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE
BIG THINGS OUT OF HER IN THE
FUTURE.
>> Renee: AND THE FACT THAT WELL
MAYBE, YOU KNOW, AND SHE SEEMS
TO BE EVEN THOUGH SHE IS JUST A
FRESHMAN, CERTAINLY SHE HAD RAY
BIG BILL.
>> SHE DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A
FRESHMAN.
>> Renee: SHE DOESN'T.
HOPEFULLY WE'LL HAVE HER ON VERY
SOON TO TALK ABOUT HER CAREER
AND SOME OF THE THINGS SHE IS
WORKING ON BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE
PER THAPS THIS MIGHT BE AN ISSUE
SHE MIGHT TAKE UP IN 2018.
>> I THINK SHE IS VERY INTEREST
ED IN THIS.
YOU KNOW AND AGAIN SHE IS VERY
KNOWLEDGEABLE.
SHE HAS A HEALTHCARE BACKGROUND,
AND BECAUSE OF I THINK HER
INVOLVEMENT IN THE OFFICE OF
DRUG CONTROL POLICY, SHE IS JUST
, I THINK HAS A HANDLE ON
LIKE REALLY WHAT ARE THE DRIVERS
ARE INCARCERATION, PARTICULARLY
HERE IN KENTUCKY.
YOU KNOW THIS RENEE, EVERY
SINGLE KENTUCKY FAMILY HAS
SOMEHOW BEEN BY THE DRUG
SCOURGE AND SO I DON'T THINK ANY
OF THOSE FAMILIES WOULD WANT TO
US THROW IN THE TOWEL ON THEIR
FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS SICK.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR GOVERNOR
BEVIN TALK ABOUT THIS ALL THE
TIME.
EVERYBODY CAN BE REDEEMED.
AND I THINK SHE IS A FIRM
BELIEVER IN THAT AS WELL.
>> Renee: AND HE HAS MADE SOME
ACTIONS REDEEMING ACTIONS FOR
FORMER FELONS, YOU KNOW, BAN THE
STATE BOX ON THE APPLICATION.
AND FOR FELONS.
AND IT SEEMS TO BE GOING FURTHER
DO YOU THINK THAT THE NEXT STEP
FOR KENTUCKY FOR FELON REENTRY
NEXT LOGICAL STEP WOULD BE
AUTOMATIC RESTORATION OF VOTING
RIGHTS?
>> I THINK THAT IT WILL
CERTAINLY BE ON THE TABLE.
>> FOR NON VIOLENCE.
>> I'M SURE THAT'S ON THE TABLE
FOR OUR ORGANIZATION OUR BIGGEST
CONCERN IS ENSURING THESE
INDIVIDUALS HAVE JOBS.
BECAUSE A JOB IS, I THINK, YOU
KNOW, THE GREATEST WALL BETWEEN
A FORMER OFFENDER RETURNING TO A
LIFE OF CRIME AND THERE ARE A
LOT OF STATES THAT ARE DOING
SOME REALLY INTERESTING THINGS
WITH JOB TRAINING.
IT'S REAL INTERESTING.
THE KENTUCKY MANUFACTURERS
ASSOCIATION HAD BEEN LAMENTING
THE DIRTH OF SKILLED LABOR IN
KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW.
THERE IS A LOT OF JOBS WHERE
THEY CAN'T FIND INDIVIDUALS TO
FILL THESE JOBS AND THESE ARE
GOOD WELL PAYING JOBS.
YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD BE SHOCKED
AT HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND A PIPE
FITTER SO I THINK MARRYING THE
MARKET, THE JOBS THAT ARE
AVAILABLE IN THE MARKET TO THE
JOB TRAINING THAT A LOT OF THESE
INMATES ARE RECEIVING, I THINK
IS CRITICAL.
AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO GREAT TO
SEE THE CHAMBER AND A LOT OF THE
BUSINESS GROUPS VERY INVOLVED
AND YOU SEE LIKE DON BALL WITH
BALL HOMES WHO WROTE A VERY
POIGNANT OP-ED IN SUPPORT OF
SENATE BILL 120.
MAC BROWN WHO IS THE CHAIR OF
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF KENTUCKY
, BEFORE THAT, YOU KNOW,
HE WROTE AN OP-ED, I BELIEVE IT
WAS IN THE COURIER IN SUPPORT OF
THE EXPUNGEMENT BILL THAT DID
EVENTUALLY PASS.
SO YOU HAVE THESE REALLY
CONSERVATIVE BUSINESS LEADERS
WHO ARE NOW GETTING OUT THERE
AND SAYING LOOK, WE'VE GOT A
DIRTH OF SKILLED LABOR, WE COULD
HELP TO TRAIN THIS INMATE
POPULATION AND NOT ONLY WILL
THAT HELP US, YOU KNOW, IN
FINDING SKILLED LABORERS AND
BROADEN THE POOL OF SKILLED
LABORERS BUT HAVE A POSITIVE
IMPACT ON FEDERAL SAFETY.
>> ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL, ONE
MINUTE, OH PLY GOSH, WHAT IS THE
ONE MEASURE YOU WOULD WANT TO
GET THROUGH IN THE NEXT, WELL
THIS CURRENT SESSION OF CONGRESS
>> WELL THERE IS A BILL THAT WAS
RECENTLY FILED BY REPRESENTATIVE
DOUG COLLINS, THE PRISON REFORM
BILL THAT IS THE BACK REFORMS
ENSURING VOCATIONAL REHABILITAT
IVE SERVICES,
INTRODUCED IT YESTERDAY BUT
THERE IS A BILL VERY FEW PEOPLE
ARE TALKING ABOUT, THE COREY
BOOKER FILED, TURN BACK THE
CLOCK ON THE 94 CRIME BILL AND
INCENTIVIZE STATES RATHER THAN
INCENTIVIZING THEM FOR BUILDING
MORE PRISONS, BUT TO SAFELY
REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATIONS
AND THE INCENTIVES WOULD BE BAS
ED ON THOSE STATES THAT LOWER
THEIR CRIME RATES AND LOWER THE
RECIDIVISM.
A GREAT BILL.
>> Renee: YOU CAN TELL SHE HAS
DONE TV.
SHE LOOKS AT THE CLOCK AND KNOWS
SHE HAS TO STOP TALKING.
I'M VERY PROUD OF YOU AND THE
WAY YOU REPRESENT KENTUCKY AND
THE ELOQUENCE YOU BRING TO YOUR
ISSUE AND THE PASSION YOU BRING
TO IT.
SO CONGRATULATIONS AND WELCOME
HOME.
>> I THIS GREAT TEACHERS.
>> Renee: I WASN'T YOUR TEACHER
BUT GLAD TO CALL YOU FRIEND AND
GLAD YOU ARE BACK HOME AND DOING
GREAT WORK ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
HOLLY HARRIS.
REMEMBER THAT NAME.
JUSTICE ACTION NETWORK WHO IS
SHE REPRESENTS, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR.
WE ARE GLAD SHE WAS WITH US.
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