1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,930 ROBERT COSTA: Individual one. President Trump emerges as a subject of interest in the 2 00:00:05,930 --> 00:00:10,060 Mueller probe. I'm Robert Costa. Welcome to Washington Week. 3 00:00:10,060 --> 00:00:14,430 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) He is a weak person and what he's trying to do is 4 00:00:14,430 --> 00:00:19,940 get a reduced sentence. So he's lying about a project that everybody knew about. 5 00:00:19,940 --> 00:00:24,150 ROBERT COSTA: President Trump battles his former personal attorney and defends his 6 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:27,290 business with Russians during the 2016 campaign. 7 00:00:27,290 --> 00:00:30,910 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) We were very open with it. We were thinking about 8 00:00:30,910 --> 00:00:34,090 building a building. I decided ultimately not to do it. 9 00:00:34,090 --> 00:00:36,630 There would have been nothing wrong if I did do it. 10 00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:40,590 ROBERT COSTA: But those talks for a Trump Tower in Moscow are now under intense 11 00:00:40,590 --> 00:00:46,650 scrutiny, as Cohen admits he lied to Congress and the president continues his political 12 00:00:46,650 --> 00:00:52,130 war with Robert Mueller after the special counsel withdrew a plea deal with former Trump 13 00:00:52,130 --> 00:00:57,790 campaign chairman Paul Manafort. All this as the president is abroad in Argentina along 14 00:00:57,790 --> 00:01:03,420 with Russian President Vladimir Putin. The latest reporting, next. 15 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:15,090 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 16 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:20,890 ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. The Russia probe that has long gripped the Trump presidency 17 00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:25,990 was jolted this week by Michael Cohen, the president's former lawyer, who admitted he 18 00:01:25,990 --> 00:01:30,300 lied to Congress about what was called the Moscow project. 19 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:35,990 Cohen had testified that talks about building a Trump Tower in Russia had fizzled by 20 00:01:35,990 --> 00:01:42,300 early 2016, but in a Manhattan courtroom on Thursday Cohen said that discussions about 21 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:48,420 the project actually went into the summer of 2016, deep into the presidential campaign. 22 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:55,780 This development raises new questions: Did the president's business pursuits with Russia 23 00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:59,510 shape his campaign or his message? 24 00:01:59,510 --> 00:02:04,400 And what does it reveal about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation? 25 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,370 Joining me tonight to discuss all of this are three seasoned reporters on this 26 00:02:08,370 --> 00:02:13,880 fast-moving beat: Michael Schmidt, a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning national security 27 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,310 reporter with The New York Times; Susan Glasser, staff writer for The New Yorker and 28 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:24,390 author of the weekly Letter From Trump's Washington column; and Rosalind Helderman, 29 00:02:24,390 --> 00:02:29,340 political enterprise and investigations reporter for The Washington Post, who won a 30 00:02:29,340 --> 00:02:34,310 Pulitzer Prize this year. Michael great to have you here on Washington Week. 31 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:39,470 You've been reporting on Mueller for so long. There are so many pieces to this puzzle. 32 00:02:39,470 --> 00:02:44,440 What does this piece - the Cohen piece, the development this week, his cooperation - tell 33 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,320 us about where Bob Mueller's going with his entire investigation? 34 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,690 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: Well, it shows, obviously, that he continues to go deeper and deeper 35 00:02:51,690 --> 00:02:57,120 inside that inner circle of the president's in really trying to figure out what was going 36 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,340 on during the campaign. 37 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:03,620 But I think more importantly he's continuing to tell the story of the different pieces of 38 00:03:03,620 --> 00:03:09,200 the pie of what was going on in the summer of 2016 - the Russians were reaching out to 39 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,870 try and meet with his son, they were starting to do things on social media to undermine 40 00:03:14,870 --> 00:03:20,470 our democracy, and they were also trying to do business with the president - and trying 41 00:03:20,470 --> 00:03:25,200 to lay out for the average person in this country through these documents the history and 42 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,590 the story of this to give us a greater understanding of it. 43 00:03:28,590 --> 00:03:31,920 ROBERT COSTA: The president's defending his conduct, all these different conversations. 44 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:36,370 He began the day with a series of tweets mocking the Mueller probe and defending his 45 00:03:36,370 --> 00:03:39,340 pursuit of the real estate project in Moscow. 46 00:03:39,340 --> 00:03:44,390 He wrote in part: "I decide to run for President & continue to run my business-very legal 47 00:03:44,390 --> 00:03:49,690 & very cool, talked about it on the campaign trail." But most Democrats have sounded the 48 00:03:49,690 --> 00:03:54,440 alarm, including House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Adam Schiff of California. 49 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,140 REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): (From video.) It means that when the president was 50 00:03:58,140 --> 00:04:02,850 representing during the campaign that he had no business interests in Russia, that that wasn't true. 51 00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:05,730 ROBERT COSTA: I just want to follow up on something you said, Mike. It raises questions 52 00:04:05,730 --> 00:04:10,260 about what President Trump was doing during the 2016 campaign, about the timeline. 53 00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:13,780 He just submitted questions, written answers to Robert Mueller. 54 00:04:13,780 --> 00:04:17,270 Is there a perjury question now for President Trump and his legal team? 55 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:21,750 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: As soon as we saw the plea deal with Cohen, the thought that we had was 56 00:04:21,750 --> 00:04:26,430 what's in the answers, because we knew from reporting earlier this year that Mueller 57 00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:30,550 wanted to ask him about this deal. He wanted to know who he spoke to. 58 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:34,470 And if you're trying to understand the criminal exposure, the political exposure that the 59 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:37,500 president has, you have to find out what that answer was. 60 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:42,030 So we went - we pushed on the president's lawyers to get that, and what they say is that 61 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:46,770 what the president put in those answers lines up with what Cohen said, and that he's fine 62 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:52,590 there. Now, in a Trumpian twist, the president came out from the White House after 63 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:58,230 Cohen pled and said he was lying that day. He called him a liar and said he was lying 64 00:04:58,230 --> 00:05:04,450 to reduce his sentence. Well, if Cohen is lying, then what - it doesn't line up with what 65 00:05:04,450 --> 00:05:09,560 the president was saying in his answers. So, you know, sort of classic Trump there. 66 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,620 ROBERT COSTA: Maybe Mueller comes back for more questions for the president about all of 67 00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:14,800 this at some point. 68 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,780 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: I find it very hard to believe that Bob Mueller will be simply 69 00:05:17,780 --> 00:05:21,890 satisfied with written responses from Donald Trump on a small sliver of the investigation. 70 00:05:21,890 --> 00:05:25,210 ROBERT COSTA: Ros, also great to have you here at the table. You've been following 71 00:05:25,210 --> 00:05:28,980 Michael Cohen for so long. We've been questioning for a long time at the Post and 72 00:05:28,980 --> 00:05:33,240 elsewhere how valuable he really is to Robert Mueller's investigation. 73 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,450 What does your reporting tell you about that question? 74 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:40,130 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: Well, we know it was revealed yesterday that he sat down with Bob 75 00:05:40,130 --> 00:05:45,010 Mueller's team I believe seven separate times just in the last few months, so there's a 76 00:05:45,010 --> 00:05:49,400 lot of information. I mean, this is a guy who was really Donald Trump's sort of 77 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,880 right-hand man within the Trump Organization, had a lot of involvement with basically 78 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,670 all of the sort of dirtiest secrets of the Trump Organization. 79 00:05:58,670 --> 00:06:03,470 Obviously, we've seen, involved deeply with the payments to women prior to the election 80 00:06:03,470 --> 00:06:08,650 to silence them, but also just a lot of Donald Trump's overseas international business 81 00:06:08,650 --> 00:06:14,310 expansion. So he's a guy with a wealth of knowledge. The problem is he's also a guy, 82 00:06:14,310 --> 00:06:19,490 like so many people in Trump world, who has a tendency to exaggerate and to lie. 83 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:24,230 And so you can be sure that Bob Mueller is gathering every piece of paper he can to try 84 00:06:24,230 --> 00:06:28,240 to get corroboration for anything he's being told by Michael Cohen. 85 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,020 ROBERT COSTA: But this development this week, does this tell us that Mueller sees Cohen 86 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:34,240 as pretty credible, at least? 87 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,610 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: It certainly shows that he believes that Cohen has important 88 00:06:37,610 --> 00:06:42,880 information to share, and certainly that he has a lot of additional evidence to back up 89 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,390 anything he plans to use. 90 00:06:45,390 --> 00:06:49,910 ROBERT COSTA: Susan, you've lived in Moscow. You've written a book about Vladimir Putin. 91 00:06:49,910 --> 00:06:53,710 You know this country. The timing here really matters. 92 00:06:53,710 --> 00:07:00,510 It comes just as Russia is mounting its interference campaign in 2016, then-candidate 93 00:07:00,510 --> 00:07:05,370 Trump engaging with Russians at the same time. What does it tell us about Russia 94 00:07:05,370 --> 00:07:08,730 and Putin that they were doing both of these things simultaneously? 95 00:07:08,730 --> 00:07:11,280 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, you know, I think that's an excellent question because that's the 96 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,750 thing that immediately occurred to me. 97 00:07:13,750 --> 00:07:18,830 When you look at what Cohen is testifying to and what was included in this agreement that 98 00:07:18,830 --> 00:07:24,860 Mueller brought to court the other day, it includes the information that multiple times 99 00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:30,690 Michael Cohen reached out to and interacted with Vladimir Putin's office through his 100 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:35,230 spokesman - through the office of his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, who I know - who's been 101 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:38,850 Putin's spokesman, by the way, since the very beginning of his term. He's one of Putin's 102 00:07:38,850 --> 00:07:42,920 closest advisors. So he's not just like a press secretary; he's been with Putin since 103 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,110 Putin became president in the year 2000, so 18 years, right, and is reputed to have 104 00:07:48,110 --> 00:07:53,110 grown very wealthy at the side of Vladimir Putin. And so it's not just some random 105 00:07:53,110 --> 00:07:57,300 official that they're interacting with. But think about this. Think about this: 106 00:07:57,300 --> 00:08:02,400 weaponizing information - "kompromat" they call it in Russian - is, you know, a 107 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:09,400 trademark of this new Russian power elite in the post-Soviet era. And what does it mean? 108 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:15,680 Potentially, it means that Donald Trump and his advisor Michael Cohen have offered Putin 109 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:21,680 an enormous amount of potentially compromising information on him to use in the middle of 110 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,420 a political campaign. As you pointed out, Putin's government, according to U.S. 111 00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:31,720 intelligence, was already mobilizing to support Donald Trump in the election using 112 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,370 influence methods. But separately, he's seeking - he's offering him more information. 113 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:41,620 ROBERT COSTA: You had this marvelous profile of Adam Schiff, the ranking member, who's 114 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:45,240 going to be the new chair of the Intelligence Committee when House Democrats take over in 115 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,970 January. As House Democrats process all of this, as Schiff watches 116 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:50,410 all of this, what can we expect from them? 117 00:08:50,410 --> 00:08:53,870 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, first of all, this is the first charge from the Mueller case to 118 00:08:53,870 --> 00:08:56,480 result from lying to Congress. 119 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,210 And so what happened is that Michael Cohen is actually pleading guilty to having lied to 120 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:05,360 Capitol Hill when he was called to testify in their earlier investigation. 121 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,070 As you know, there was a very partisan report that was put out by the House Republicans 122 00:09:10,070 --> 00:09:14,560 on the Intelligence Committee, who then shut down their investigation. 123 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:19,270 Democrats, under Congressman Schiff, have vowed to reopen an investigation. 124 00:09:19,270 --> 00:09:24,290 The first thing they want to do is release transcripts of the many interviews that they 125 00:09:24,290 --> 00:09:29,360 took with people. They say there are other people who likely committed perjury and 126 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,220 that may now be charged by Mueller's investigative team as a result. 127 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:37,970 For example, Congressman Schiff specifically named Roger Stone as one of those who he 128 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:40,820 believed was not truthful with their committee. 129 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:43,590 ROBERT COSTA: What about at the Department of Justice? You've been following the 130 00:09:43,590 --> 00:09:46,610 obstruction side of this for so long, Mike. You have an acting attorney general, 131 00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:49,720 Matt Whitaker. How does he respond to this? How are they handling this? 132 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,810 Are they on edge that the president could try to disrupt Mueller? 133 00:09:52,810 --> 00:09:56,540 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: Well, it seemed from what sort of we've learned in the past few days 134 00:09:56,540 --> 00:10:00,350 that Whitaker has not been very involved in the Russia matter and that it has stayed 135 00:10:00,350 --> 00:10:04,920 underneath Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general. There does not appear to have 136 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:10,160 been any real interest by Whitaker so far in getting involved in the Mueller investigation. 137 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:15,360 He knows that everyone is closely looking at him, whether he does anything towards this 138 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,880 and whether that is part of a continued obstruction. The problem is is that the 139 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,630 president put him there because he felt comfortable with him. He knew what he had said 140 00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:29,290 about the Russia investigation. He knew that Whitaker had been very skeptical of it. 141 00:10:29,290 --> 00:10:33,540 Whitaker had spent a lot of time with the president, had built a real rapport with him 142 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:37,750 and Whitaker was someone that no one at the senior levels of the Justice Department 143 00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:41,690 thought really deserved the job. So there's this sort of weird dynamic there where the 144 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:46,790 president has someone, there is this ongoing investigation, it's still being run by Rosenstein. 145 00:10:46,790 --> 00:10:49,910 ROBERT COSTA: If that's the dynamic, why aren't Senate Republicans trying to protect 146 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:52,030 Mueller with legislation? 147 00:10:52,030 --> 00:10:54,760 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: Well, that legislation, it looked like it died again this week. 148 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,120 I mean, it seems like it's died a few times, but more recently died this week. 149 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,090 And, you know, for whatever reason, they don't feel the need to do this. 150 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:06,880 And I'm not sure why. I mean, they seem very attuned to public opinion on this, 151 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,220 maybe the Republicans really don't care about it. Will it take something else 152 00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:14,750 of the president doing to get them to do that? I'm not sure. 153 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:18,490 ROBERT COSTA: The other issue, Ros, of this whole thing brought up this week was 154 00:11:18,490 --> 00:11:21,960 President Trump kept telling us in the campaign he had nothing to do with Russia, no 155 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,150 money involved with Russia. 156 00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:28,580 But this week, we learned that the Moscow project, thanks in part to your reporting, 157 00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:32,200 wasn't the first attempt by President Trump to expand his brand into Russia. 158 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,080 You wrote in your story, quote, "It was a dream born in the 1980s, a gleaming Trump Tower 159 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,560 in the heart of Soviet Moscow. For Donald Trump, that vision never died, even as he 160 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:48,530 launched a presidential campaign." What explains this decades-long effort with Russia? 161 00:11:48,530 --> 00:11:53,490 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: I think Trump wanted to do a thing he had set out to do years ago 162 00:11:53,490 --> 00:11:58,080 and he hadn't succeeded. I think you have to look at Cohen's activities during the 163 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,870 campaign against that backdrop. I mean, Cohen was a guy who wanted to please the boss. 164 00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:09,180 That was sort of his self-image was being Donald Trump's man. And so he understood, 165 00:12:09,180 --> 00:12:14,340 if he could finally get the Trump Tower deal in Moscow done, he would really get in 166 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:20,950 good with the boss. And you have this history. Trump goes in 1987, he goes in 1996, 167 00:12:20,950 --> 00:12:27,000 in 2005 he signed a deal actually with this same guy, Felix Sater's company, to try 168 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,390 to build. He's back in 2013. He's trying again and again. And you see the Trump 169 00:12:32,390 --> 00:12:37,400 Organization putting its name on buildings in various other countries of the world. 170 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,720 Russia was a place he wanted to be. It was a place where his brand, Russians liked his 171 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,080 brand, they were buying all over the world in his buildings and he wanted a building there. 172 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,760 ROBERT COSTA: What does this mean for the president, as he's watching all of this from 173 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,180 Argentina, for U.S. foreign policy, for U.S.-Russian relations, U.S. relations with our own allies? 174 00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:59,190 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, you know, as you know, it's been an incredibly divisive issue, 175 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:03,800 among many, between the United States and its European allies from the very beginning of 176 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,050 Trump's presidency when, you know, he came into office, even potentially talking about 177 00:13:09,050 --> 00:13:11,340 lifting sanctions on Russia. 178 00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:14,700 Those have stayed in place largely because Congress has made it absolutely clear that 179 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:19,720 even the Republican-controlled Congress would have acted very decisively if he moved in 180 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,090 the direction he wanted to. Enormous outcry even from Republicans when he had that 181 00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:28,380 meeting in Helsinki with Vladimir Putin, which we all remember. So flash forward to 182 00:13:28,380 --> 00:13:32,520 this week at the G-20. President Trump has been looking forward to meeting President 183 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,840 Putin again ever since that Helsinki meeting. And in fact, John Bolton, his national 184 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,540 security adviser, said in the lead-up to Buenos Aires that the agenda of the meeting 185 00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:47,270 between Putin and Trump was simply to continue their excellent discussion from Helsinki. 186 00:13:47,270 --> 00:13:52,010 And, you know, now Trump is saying, well, I canceled it because of Russian aggression 187 00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:55,130 toward Ukraine over the last weekend. 188 00:13:55,130 --> 00:13:58,030 ROBERT COSTA: Is it - is it more - there's more to that story, though, perhaps. 189 00:13:58,030 --> 00:14:00,800 It's not just about Russia's hostility in the Ukraine. 190 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,230 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, you know, it's an excellent question. 191 00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:06,340 Obviously, we don't know yet the real story here. 192 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:10,330 But it's fair to say that the United States was very sluggish in its response to this 193 00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:15,930 incident involving the Kerch Strait and Ukrainian naval ships that were boarded and 194 00:14:15,930 --> 00:14:23,170 seized by Russia. Other countries, NATO, the EU issued statements both far more quickly 195 00:14:23,170 --> 00:14:27,620 and far stronger than those of the U.S. government. President Trump at one point 196 00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:30,670 seemed to say, well, you know, there's a problem on both sides. 197 00:14:30,670 --> 00:14:34,360 He later came out and said, well, I don't like this aggression, I don't like it at all, 198 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,240 but it was much after the fact and it certainly didn't seem to be an issue that would 199 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,230 have motivated him to cancel a meeting with Putin days later. 200 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:46,440 When he got on the plane yesterday to go to Buenos Aires, he said he was going to have 201 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,110 the meeting. One hour later, in the midst of the Cohen deal, it was canceled. 202 00:14:50,110 --> 00:14:52,470 ROBERT COSTA: Russia haunts him at home and abroad. 203 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:55,920 Mike, when you think about the president, when you went to - reporters used to go visit 204 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,850 him at Trump Tower on the 26th floor, you'd see his children there, Don Jr., Eric, 205 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,950 Ivanka, working with him on business, working with him on the campaign. You read about 206 00:15:03,950 --> 00:15:10,630 Cohen, his work with Mueller, does the family have exposure here, legally and politically? 207 00:15:10,630 --> 00:15:15,120 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: Well, I think in the president's mind they do and that is probably the 208 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,960 most important thing. We don't know what Mueller has, we don't know what he's doing. 209 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,930 But certainly, the president, you know, he has these different red lines that he's made 210 00:15:22,930 --> 00:15:28,630 up. I think a true, real one is the family. And they do think that there's something 211 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:33,260 afoot here and that they are looking at Don Jr. That's what the president thinks. 212 00:15:33,260 --> 00:15:39,220 And that has guided some of his anger. You know, in the past month, it has built. 213 00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:43,560 He didn't like the way that they - that Mueller was treating Paul Manafort, his former 214 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,490 campaign chairman. He didn't like the way that they were trying to enter into a plea 215 00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:51,980 deal with this person who was in touch with WikiLeaks. And he didn't like the way that 216 00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:56,310 the government unsealed these documents about Julian Assange that showed they charged him. 217 00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:59,300 And he thinks something larger is going on here. 218 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:03,490 He sees the Cohen thing happen right as he's leaving for a meeting. 219 00:16:03,490 --> 00:16:08,140 He knew that Mueller had filed charges before he went to Helsinki, the last time when he 220 00:16:08,140 --> 00:16:12,700 went to meet with - meet with Putin. He does - he thinks that there is a conspiracy. 221 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,240 ROBERT COSTA: Well, he's right, there - well, there's not - there is a lot going on. 222 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,020 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: He thinks there's a conspiracy. 223 00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:20,380 ROBERT COSTA: He thinks there's a conspiracy; it's an investigation. You mentioned 224 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:24,010 Paul Manafort. There was news this week, of course, that Michael Cohen is cooperating 225 00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:28,540 with Mueller's probe and that's significant, but so is the fact that the Trump campaign's 226 00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:32,780 former chairman, Paul Manafort, his plea deal with Mueller collapsed this week. 227 00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:39,750 Manafort, his deal falling apart. Does that mean he's going to break at some point, 228 00:16:39,750 --> 00:16:43,390 Ros, and be a cooperative witness like a Michael Cohen? 229 00:16:43,390 --> 00:16:48,140 Or does this mean he's going to face another trial and more legal trouble down the road? 230 00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:51,240 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: Well, there was a hearing just today in that matter. 231 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,670 And the special counsel's office told a judge that they have not yet decided whether to 232 00:16:55,670 --> 00:17:00,220 pursue further charges against him for his new lies, what they - what they said in a 233 00:17:00,220 --> 00:17:03,430 court filing were his crimes and lies. 234 00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:07,860 It does seem like the ship has sailed for him to be a cooperating witness. 235 00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:13,570 This is not a development that a prosecutor would want, to have a cooperator sort of 236 00:17:13,570 --> 00:17:18,010 breach their plea agreement, so I think he's unlikely to come around. 237 00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:22,940 But interestingly, we're going to see a really important development a week from today 238 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:28,430 when the special counsel's office goes into court and actually details for the judge all 239 00:17:28,430 --> 00:17:31,610 of his lies, all of the ways in which they feel - 240 00:17:31,610 --> 00:17:33,860 ROBERT COSTA: Why do they have to detail those things? 241 00:17:33,860 --> 00:17:36,930 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: It's part of arguing to the judge that his plea agreement has been - 242 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:41,600 has been breached and he will not be worth - he's not deserving of leniency for having 243 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,960 assisted in the - in the investigation. 244 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,710 Otherwise, he would be in a position of getting a break on his sentence. 245 00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:52,230 So they're going to file this report and they're going to talk about all the things they 246 00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:58,480 were asking him about in this time period where they felt like he was not honest, and 247 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,760 they're going to have to say why they know he wasn't honest, which allows them to lay out 248 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,140 some evidence. You know, we're all talking about this report that might be issued. 249 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:12,400 Well, we might see some of the information we might have expected to see in a report in 250 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,660 sort of stages entered into court, starting next week. 251 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:18,970 ROBERT COSTA: So you're saying we may not even see that report, but we can get a little 252 00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:21,820 gleaning of what's going to come from the court? 253 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:24,910 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: We could get a singular report maybe in the - in the new year. 254 00:18:24,910 --> 00:18:27,480 But before then, we're going to have a lot of new information. 255 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,030 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: There's no guarantee we'll get a report, so Mueller has to speak when 256 00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:35,800 he can speak, and he does that in his public filings. So he always knows he will be 257 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,370 able to do the things in public. He will not really be able to control where the 258 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:44,190 report goes. That is a decision that will be made above him at the Justice Department. 259 00:18:44,190 --> 00:18:47,680 But to your point about Manafort, the thing to understand about Manafort is there's 260 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,530 really just two people who basically control the fate of perhaps the rest of his life. 261 00:18:51,530 --> 00:18:54,640 He's 69 years old. He's looking at many years in prison. 262 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,830 Either it was going to be Bob Mueller who was going to go to a judge and say give this 263 00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:03,640 man leniency, or it's Donald Trump who is going to pardon him. There's really no one 264 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,590 else who can - has any other important, you know, way to impact the rest of his life. 265 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:13,730 ROBERT COSTA: Is he searching for a pardon, Susan, when you look at Paul Manafort? 266 00:19:13,730 --> 00:19:19,350 You've followed his career a long time, international political strategist. Unlike Cohen, 267 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:23,590 does he perhaps see there's a window here for him to get a pardon from President Trump? 268 00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:27,500 SUSAN GLASSER: Well, look, a lot of people have suggested that that seems to be what 269 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:33,390 he's doing for here, and that it's such an audacious play, in fact, to challenge someone 270 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:38,270 who is as tough-minded as Bob Mueller; by breaching your agreement, that you must have in 271 00:19:38,270 --> 00:19:42,610 mind that this is your only lifeline, your signal to President Trump, who's made it very 272 00:19:42,610 --> 00:19:48,740 clear what he thinks about cooperators. He's gone - over and over made the point that 273 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:53,270 they're rats, that they're not trustworthy, that they're bad people. So it seems to me 274 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:58,270 that he needed to restore in some way credibility with Trump in order to make his case 275 00:19:58,270 --> 00:20:02,480 for a plea. But I would just say that there are potentially some other people who 276 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,510 could affect Paul Manafort's life. 277 00:20:04,510 --> 00:20:09,070 For example, he spent years getting millions - tens of millions of dollars from Ukraine's 278 00:20:09,070 --> 00:20:14,520 corrupt, deposed former President Viktor Yanukovych, Russia-supported. He has enormous 279 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,590 relationships with Russian oligarchs such as Oleg Deripaska, who figure in this Trump 280 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:23,870 story. They have information, too, that could affect both Paul Manafort and Donald Trump. 281 00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:27,780 ROBERT COSTA: Or what about, Ros, Roger Stone, a longtime Manafort associate? 282 00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:30,480 What is his future right now legally? 283 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,390 ROSALIND HELDERMAN: Well, we don't yet know. What we do know is that the special counsel 284 00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:41,340 has spent an enormous amount of time on the Roger Stone piece of his case in recent months. 285 00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:47,590 He's brought in, I think at last count, maybe a dozen friends/associates of Roger Stone 286 00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:51,740 to be interviewed by prosecutors or in front of the grand jury. 287 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:57,230 We know that Roger Stone said things prior to the election that sure sounded like he had 288 00:20:57,230 --> 00:21:00,090 advance knowledge of what WikiLeaks has planned. 289 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:04,900 Now, he has over and over and over again now denied that fact, but there is clearly 290 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:10,650 something about Roger Stone and what he knew that Bob Mueller is very, very interested in. 291 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:15,510 ROBERT COSTA: Final thought, Mike. The talk about a pardon, President Trump's, his 292 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:20,650 signaling on that front; the conversations between Manafort's lawyers and the Trump lawyers; 293 00:21:20,650 --> 00:21:25,020 is there an obstruction issue at all facing Manafort in these kind of conversations? 294 00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:27,870 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: I guess it depends on what's really going on. 295 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:32,380 If there was some sort of backroom deal between Manafort's lawyers and the president's 296 00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:36,580 about giving them information in exchange for a pardon to interfere with the 297 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:39,880 investigation, highly, highly problematic. 298 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,840 If it was simply Manafort's lawyers passing information back to Trump's, you know, to, 299 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,950 you know, just kind of be a free flow of information, less so. Not really clear. 300 00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:53,990 What we do know is that the issues of pardons have been looked at. Mueller - 301 00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:56,210 ROBERT COSTA: You reported John Dowd once. 302 00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:58,050 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: Correct. John Dowd, you know - 303 00:21:58,050 --> 00:21:59,720 ROBERT COSTA: The president's former lawyer. 304 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,740 MICHAEL SCHMIDT: - last year having discussions with Manafort and Flynn's lawyers. 305 00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:05,530 ROBERT COSTA: We're going to have to leave it there. We've a live show, but we're 306 00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:08,420 going to continue that on the podcast. I appreciate everyone coming out tonight on 307 00:22:08,420 --> 00:22:12,160 a Friday night. We will continue this conversation on the Washington Week Podcast. 308 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,710 You can find that on our website Fridays after 10 p.m. and also on your favorite 309 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:19,680 podcast app. I promise we'll get there, Mike. 310 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:33,680 I'm Robert Costa. Have a great weekend, and thanks for joining us.