1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:04,133 AMNA NAWAZ: Battle lines drawn in the debt ceiling debate. 2 00:00:04,133 --> 00:00:09,133 JOE BIDEN, U.S. President: I will protect social security and Medicare, guaranteed. 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,933 AMNA NAWAZ: President Biden unveils his proposed budget, 4 00:00:12,933 --> 00:00:15,433 a likely preview of his re-election priorities. 5 00:00:15,433 --> 00:00:17,400 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to shrink Washington and 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,833 grow America. His budget would do the opposite. 7 00:00:19,833 --> 00:00:22,300 AMNA NAWAZ: As a powerful wing of the House GOP 8 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:25,733 issues its new demands ahead of the debt ceiling deadline. 9 00:00:25,733 --> 00:00:27,733 Plus -- 10 00:00:27,733 --> 00:00:30,500 GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We will never ever surrender to the woke mob. 11 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,033 AMNA NAWAZ: -- top Republican presidential contenders make 12 00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:35,933 their pitches in a critical state, next. 13 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,500 Good evening and welcome to Washington Week. I'm Amna Nawaz. 14 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:39,500 Early battle lines are emerging between Democrats and Republicans as the deadline to raise the debt 15 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,733 ceiling looms. In a speech in Philadelphia, President Biden unveiled his proposed spending 16 00:01:48,333 --> 00:01:50,766 plan for the next fiscal year while previewing his priorities heading into the 2024 election cycle. 17 00:01:52,666 --> 00:01:57,200 $6.8 trillion budget would increase military spending and a wide range of 18 00:01:59,233 --> 00:02:02,933 new social programs. It also aims to reduce future budget deficits by nearly $3 trillion 19 00:02:04,966 --> 00:02:08,566 over the next decade through savings and tax increases on corporations and the very 20 00:02:08,566 --> 00:02:13,566 wealthiest Americans. And it funds Medicare by taxing households earning over $400,000. 21 00:02:15,233 --> 00:02:19,100 The president issued this challenge to Speaker Kevin McCarthy. 22 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:23,566 JOE BIDEN: I am ready to meet with the speaker any time, tomorrow if he has his 23 00:02:23,566 --> 00:02:27,166 budget. Lay it down, tell me what you want to do. I'll show you what I want to do, 24 00:02:27,166 --> 00:02:30,533 see where we can agree on or we don't agree on. Let's see what we vote on. 25 00:02:30,533 --> 00:02:35,533 AMNA NAWAZ: But the House Freedom Caucus, a critical voting bloc Speaker McCarthy needs, 26 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,366 announced what they are argue are necessary rollbacks to government spending. 27 00:02:40,366 --> 00:02:45,366 REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): The only thing is responsible is for government to actually its 28 00:02:47,333 --> 00:02:50,933 belt tighten. Inflation is caused by massive overspending by the federal government. 29 00:02:52,366 --> 00:02:56,833 The only way for America to grow is for Washington to shrink. 30 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,866 AMNA NAWAZ: Among their demands, ending the president's student loan forgiveness program, 31 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:05,300 tougher work requirements for welfare recipients, 32 00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:10,266 taking back billions in unspent COVID-19 funds, money for IRS for tax enforcement 33 00:03:12,333 --> 00:03:15,966 and from climate change spending, and a near freeze on discretionary spending for ten years. 34 00:03:17,933 --> 00:03:22,333 Joining me to discuss this and more, Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for 35 00:03:24,733 --> 00:03:27,700 The New York Times, Laura Barron-Lopez, White House Correspondent for the PBS Newshour, 36 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:32,700 and Leigh Ann Caldwell, co-Author of The Washington Post Early 202 and Anchor for 37 00:03:34,166 --> 00:03:36,766 Washington Post Live. Welcome to you all. Thanks for being here. 38 00:03:36,766 --> 00:03:41,600 So, let's just start with this fact, Laura, that a budget is a statement of values. It is a wish 39 00:03:43,566 --> 00:03:46,833 list, right? But what does this particular budget from President Biden tell us about 40 00:03:46,833 --> 00:03:51,533 his priorities and also how the White House sees their position, their leverage right now? 41 00:03:51,533 --> 00:03:53,566 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, White House Correspondent, PBS Newshour: So, as you said, Amna, this is a 42 00:03:53,566 --> 00:03:58,000 big wish list from the president. He is trying to show to the American public 43 00:04:00,533 --> 00:04:03,666 what he wants to get done if they re-elect him and if they potentially re-elect Democrats to 44 00:04:05,666 --> 00:04:08,700 majorities in the House and keep them in the majority in the Senate. And so that 45 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:13,700 includes a big ask that he had already made in the first two years about universal pre-K, 46 00:04:15,666 --> 00:04:19,866 free college tuition, also trying to extend the child tax credit again. 47 00:04:21,833 --> 00:04:25,933 And he is also, though, doing some things on-- more spending on defense, 48 00:04:27,933 --> 00:04:30,000 more spending at the border. They asked for more on that too, because, of course, 49 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,300 he is trying to protect himself against attacks from GOP on those two issues. 50 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:39,300 But all of that being said, the president right now is trying to show the public that 51 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:46,133 this is what he wants to do if he is re-elected and he thinks Democrats can 52 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:49,833 run on all of these issues and that the public sentiment is on his side. 53 00:04:49,833 --> 00:04:53,700 AMNA NAWAZ: Peter, that message on deficit reduction in particular, 54 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:57,100 that was the headline coming out of the White House, that struck me because that has been a 55 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:01,666 core Republican message. Why is the White House leaning into that so much right now? 56 00:05:01,666 --> 00:05:04,200 PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Yes. I think they're trying 57 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,300 to basically outflank the Republicans, right? Because, remember, didn't care too much about 58 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:11,300 deficit spending when Trump was in office and rolling up $7 trillion worth of new debt, 59 00:05:13,233 --> 00:05:15,166 but they care about it when a Democrat is in the White House. And it's a good 60 00:05:15,166 --> 00:05:17,800 issue for them because it goes to their core constituency and it kind of unites 61 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,933 them at a time where they're divided, right, between the Trumpers and the non-Trumpers. 62 00:05:20,933 --> 00:05:25,833 But what President Biden is trying to do here is, fine, okay, I will meet you there. I'll do some 63 00:05:25,833 --> 00:05:30,233 deficit. Let me do it my way by taxing the rich. And, in effect, he is trying to kind of reclaim in 64 00:05:30,233 --> 00:05:35,233 a way his more centrist persona, I think, where he's speaking to the values of middle Americans 65 00:05:37,666 --> 00:05:40,800 rather than necessarily just the progressives, by talking about the deficits, and in recent weeks, 66 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,600 talk about the D.C. crime bill, which he said was too extreme for him to soften penalties, 67 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,366 and immigration at the border, talking about how to toughen enforcement down there. 68 00:05:49,366 --> 00:05:53,033 AMNA NAWAZ: Leigh Ann, when you look at the proposals from that House Freedom Caucus, 69 00:05:53,033 --> 00:05:56,800 that is a wing of the party that almost cost Kevin McCarthy his 70 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,000 speakership. Have we heard from him on what he thinks of these proposals? 71 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,066 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, Early 202 Co-Author, The Washington Post: Well, it's actually 72 00:06:03,066 --> 00:06:06,100 really interesting that the Freedom Caucus came out with their proposals today. And the 73 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:10,666 reason is because they are the first ones to come out with something concrete among House 74 00:06:10,666 --> 00:06:15,666 Republicans. And so they are laying their stakes of where they stand and what they 75 00:06:17,633 --> 00:06:20,200 want earlier than anyone else, trying to move the conversation and the debate toward them. 76 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:25,000 Meanwhile, what's also simultaneously happening and has been happening for a few 77 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000 weeks now is the Republican whip, Tom Emmer, the number in the House of Representatives, 78 00:06:31,933 --> 00:06:35,033 he obviously has to count the votes, get the votes of whatever comes through. He has been 79 00:06:37,066 --> 00:06:40,500 holding listening sessions with Republicans in small groups to find out what they need not only 80 00:06:43,033 --> 00:06:46,200 in the budget but on the debt limit as well. And so while he is holding these listening sessions, 81 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,400 trying to see what they can compromise on, the freedom caucus has come out with their 82 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,400 demands. And so it just shows how difficult and tricky this is going to be for Speaker McCarthy. 83 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,066 AMNA NAWAZ: Is this -- we talk about whether Republicans and Democrats can 84 00:07:00,066 --> 00:07:03,633 come together on some kind of compromise on the budget. Is there a bigger challenge 85 00:07:03,633 --> 00:07:07,400 on whether just Republicans can come together on their own proposed budget? 86 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,233 PETER BAKER: Yes, I think that is exactly right, they're not united. As Leigh Ann just talked, 87 00:07:10,233 --> 00:07:15,233 I mean, they do not have a single core belief here. And the problem with what McCarthy has laid 88 00:07:17,766 --> 00:07:21,233 in terms of what he wants to do to balance the budget ten years without touching social security, 89 00:07:21,233 --> 00:07:25,366 without touching Medicare, without defense spending, that is really hard to do. You 90 00:07:25,366 --> 00:07:30,166 really can't get there. People just don't remember how much of our budget is spent, how much of our 91 00:07:30,166 --> 00:07:34,000 money is spent on those three core things and on interest debts, where you cannot reduce. 92 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,633 So, what are you going to do? You cut -- our analysts looked at it. So, 93 00:07:36,633 --> 00:07:39,266 you have to cut 70 percent of everything else, right? 94 00:07:39,266 --> 00:07:41,566 AMNA NAWAZ: 70% of what's left from discretion? 95 00:07:41,566 --> 00:07:44,100 PETER BAKER: Everything else, veterans care, transportation, 96 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:47,133 education. All the other things the government does would have to 97 00:07:47,133 --> 00:07:50,200 be scaled back dramatically and they have not explained how they want to do that. 98 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,233 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: And one other thing, 99 00:07:52,233 --> 00:07:55,166 the thing that McCarthy did say, because I didn't answer your question, is -- 100 00:07:55,166 --> 00:07:56,866 AMNA NAWAZ: Thanks for coming back to that, by the way. 101 00:07:58,866 --> 00:08:02,033 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: The Republican budget was supposed to be out April 15th. That is what 102 00:08:02,033 --> 00:08:05,800 leadership told me several weeks ago. And McCarthy now says that that's going to be 103 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,800 delayed probably a few weeks into May. And that is a challenge for them not only for timing but 104 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,733 also it's going to be delayed in large part because they need to come to an agreement. 105 00:08:15,733 --> 00:08:20,733 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And that gives the president essentially ammunition to go after them, 106 00:08:22,733 --> 00:08:24,800 by saying, look, I've put out my budget, I've put out my priorities. Just today, 107 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,800 we heard Shalanda Young, the head of the Office of Management and Budget, out there talking to 108 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,800 reporters saying, we are waiting for them to say what they are going to prioritize, 109 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:38,833 how they are going to effectively issue these cuts. If they are going to stick to their promise, 110 00:08:41,166 --> 00:08:44,233 which McCarthy has said, we are not going to touch social security and Medicare, and then after that, 111 00:08:46,133 --> 00:08:48,233 they will start having conversations and see where they can go from there. 112 00:08:48,233 --> 00:08:50,866 AMNA NAWAZ: I mean, this is a tough question, but the president has said over and over again, 113 00:08:50,866 --> 00:08:55,733 I am ready to meet with Speaker McCarthy when they have a budget. Given where we are now, seeing the 114 00:08:57,733 --> 00:09:00,433 president's budget, seeing the opening volley from the House Freedom Caucus, which certainly 115 00:09:00,433 --> 00:09:04,400 tie Speaker McCarthy's hands in some way, what is that first conversation going to look like? 116 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,666 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, they have had somewhat of that conversation already, 117 00:09:07,666 --> 00:09:11,866 right? But it's going to be difficult because I'm sure that President Biden is going to be 118 00:09:11,866 --> 00:09:16,200 asking over and over again, well, do you have the votes? If you ultimately agree 119 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,100 to something with me, is he rest of your conference going to vote for it? 120 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:26,100 And, ultimately, Democrats may have to come over and provide the remaining votes because when we 121 00:09:28,166 --> 00:09:31,066 get to the debt ceiling conversation, which is what this is ultimately all about, and whether 122 00:09:31,066 --> 00:09:35,800 or not the country goes over the fiscal cliff and defaults on its debts, there are a number of 123 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,800 Republicans that do not want to vote for anything, whether it's a clean debt ceiling increase or 124 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:46,200 anything to fund the government. So, that's going to be for McCarthy to get those votes. 125 00:09:48,133 --> 00:09:50,266 AMNA NAWAZ: Leigh Ann, when you look at the timeline, I mean, looking ahead to the debt 126 00:09:50,266 --> 00:09:55,066 ceiling debate, we know there is a hard date coming in summer when they are going to have two 127 00:09:55,066 --> 00:10:00,033 raise that debt ceiling. I will tell you, senior Republicans insist to me over and over again, we 128 00:10:00,033 --> 00:10:03,933 are not going to go over that fiscal cliff. They will avoid that. Is that what you are hearing? 129 00:10:03,933 --> 00:10:08,100 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Yes. That is what Republicans say. That's what McCarthy has said. That is what 130 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:13,100 most Republicans say, I should say. But how they get there is the hard part, and that is 131 00:10:15,666 --> 00:10:19,400 what's going to be most difficult. It's going to come -- I mean, President Biden wants to separate 132 00:10:21,933 --> 00:10:25,366 these two issues of the debt limit and government funding. House Republicans do not. And that is 133 00:10:25,366 --> 00:10:30,366 where the challenge is. If you can't even agree what you're going to vote on or the contours of 134 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,100 it, it makes it very, very difficult. And then, of course, you have the Senate too. 135 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:40,700 I will say, though, there is a little bit of a realization among some in the more far-right 136 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,033 faction of the party who is realizing that they are not going to get everything that they want, 137 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,400 but that is not all of them. And it's going to take a lot of education 138 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,700 and a lot of work from Republican leadership to get people on board. 139 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:59,066 AMNA NAWAZ: It's really something we are going to follow very closely in the weeks ahead. 140 00:10:59,066 --> 00:11:04,033 Meanwhile, we should say, Republican 2024 hopefuls this week set their sights on the 141 00:11:05,966 --> 00:11:08,500 key state of Iowa. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has yet to officially 142 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:12,800 enter the race but he did make his first stop to Iowa to test-run his message. 143 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,100 RON DESANTIS: We say very clearly in the state of Florida we will 144 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:22,100 never ever surrender to the woke mob. Our state is where woke goes to die. 145 00:11:23,966 --> 00:11:27,633 AMNA NAWAZ: Former President Donald Trump will visit Iowa on Monday where 146 00:11:27,633 --> 00:11:32,633 his support has lagged. A new Des Moines Register/Mediacom Iowa poll today shows 147 00:11:34,533 --> 00:11:36,700 percentage of Iowa Republicans who say they would definitely vote for 148 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:41,700 Trump if he were the nominee has plummeted more than 20 points since June of 2021. 149 00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:47,233 Peter, those numbers, when you look at them, it was 69 percent of Iowa Republicans, 150 00:11:47,233 --> 00:11:52,200 in June 2021, now it is 47 percent of Iowa Republicans. It's still pretty strong, 151 00:11:54,166 --> 00:11:56,300 right? But what does that number say to you at this stage of the game? 152 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:58,333 PETER BAKER: Well, it says that there is a weakness there, and he knows that, 153 00:11:58,333 --> 00:12:00,833 right? That is why he is getting out there now. He has not done very much since he 154 00:12:00,833 --> 00:12:05,566 announced his candidacy for a second term, and he is watching DeSantis breathing down 155 00:12:05,566 --> 00:12:09,633 his neck. DeSantis hasn't announced a thing and he's already a pretty strong competitor. 156 00:12:09,633 --> 00:12:14,633 Now, Donald Trump has the advantage of numbers, right? He doesn't need 50 percent if there are 157 00:12:16,733 --> 00:12:20,200 eight, nine, ten other candidates out there. We saw that in 2016. He had 16 other candidates. He 158 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,566 won with the plurality of the votes in these early primaries. That is all you need. So, 159 00:12:23,566 --> 00:12:26,933 he is counting on people getting in. In fact, he said that, the more the merrier, 160 00:12:26,933 --> 00:12:29,966 because he's trying to them (INAUDIBLE), because he knows the ceiling, right? There 161 00:12:29,966 --> 00:12:32,333 are a certain number of Republicans who are just not going to vote for him and are 162 00:12:32,333 --> 00:12:35,633 really tired of looking for somebody else, and that's a real problem for them. And, 163 00:12:35,633 --> 00:12:39,833 of course, you add the risk of indictment, which now seems to be looming from multiple 164 00:12:39,833 --> 00:12:44,300 sources who know that's going to affect things. So, it is a pretty volatile moment. 165 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:47,300 AMNA NAWAZ: And when you look at those numbers, you dig down into the latest poll there, 166 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:52,266 they have favorability ratings for many of the candidates, Leigh Ann. Trump's favorability is 167 00:12:54,833 --> 00:12:56,966 still among the highest among Republicans there. He is on par with Ron DeSantis. He is way ahead 168 00:12:56,966 --> 00:13:00,900 of Nikki Haley and Mike Pence. How do you look at the field right now? What are you hearing? 169 00:13:03,466 --> 00:13:06,500 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: The field seems to be Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis of that lane of the party, 170 00:13:08,866 --> 00:13:12,133 kind of the Trump far-right, the MAGA Republican, which Ron DeSantis is trying to peel off that 171 00:13:14,633 --> 00:13:19,000 base. And then you kind of have everyone else who is going to be fighting for votes. 172 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,200 But I will say, it is really, really early. Every single election cycle, there is always 173 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:28,200 a frontrunner very early on and then that frontrunner very rarely becomes the nominee. 174 00:13:30,166 --> 00:13:33,733 PETER BAKER: President Scott Walker, right, or Rand Paul, or any of them. 175 00:13:35,733 --> 00:13:38,566 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Right. Walker jumped in the race in 2015. I had a baby. I came 176 00:13:38,566 --> 00:13:42,500 off from maternity leave, and he was gone out of the race. So, that's how. 177 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:43,700 AMNA NAWAZ: That's how we marked (INAUDIBLE). 178 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:44,433 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Right, exactly. 179 00:13:46,466 --> 00:13:50,033 So, I just think that it is the base that you need to win a primary. And if any of 180 00:13:52,433 --> 00:13:54,966 these other candidates, Nikki Haley or the other ones that are going to jump in, 181 00:13:54,966 --> 00:13:59,666 if they can cut into that, there is - - the concern among some Republicans, 182 00:13:59,666 --> 00:14:04,633 which we've talked about before is that too many candidates will dilute the field. 183 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,766 AMNA NAWAZ: We hear this again and again, Laura, right? Everyone -- well, not everyone. There 184 00:14:09,766 --> 00:14:14,766 are a number of Republicans who maybe want to run themselves who say, you know what, 185 00:14:17,333 --> 00:14:21,133 a crowded field is going to hurt us again, it will clear the way for Mr. Trump to win the plurality 186 00:14:23,666 --> 00:14:26,700 instead of a majority. That is why Larry Hogan decided not to run. It was his stated reason. But, 187 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:31,700 I guess, at this stage, when you look at where folks are -- there was the never Trump wing, 188 00:14:34,133 --> 00:14:36,966 right? There is now the kind of thank you, next wing. But is there an organized anti-Trump effort 189 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,933 of any kind for people who don't believe he should be the Republican nominee? 190 00:14:41,933 --> 00:14:46,933 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The short answer is no. I mean, there are a number of Republicans, as Leigh 191 00:14:49,066 --> 00:14:52,266 Ann and Peter said, that are trying to say, look, it is time to move on. I mean, that is the whole 192 00:14:54,833 --> 00:14:57,966 reason that you see Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haleys of the world running. But when it comes down to 193 00:14:59,733 --> 00:15:02,200 their policies and when it comes down to their core messages, 194 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,733 they are nearly identical to the former president. 195 00:15:05,733 --> 00:15:10,533 And so there may be a conversation about are they done with the man himself, is the party 196 00:15:10,533 --> 00:15:15,533 done with the man himself, potentially, although there is no one that is forcefully trying to 197 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:21,800 distance themselves from Trump. Ron DeSantis is running on a platform of anti-transgender, 198 00:15:23,466 --> 00:15:27,066 anti-LGBTQ legislation. Florida just introduced a six-week abortion ban, 199 00:15:29,133 --> 00:15:34,133 that if a woman -- that gives an exemption for rape and incest, but the woman has to 200 00:15:36,666 --> 00:15:39,333 provide proof, official proof, documentation of that, and Ron DeSantis said that he supports it. 201 00:15:39,333 --> 00:15:43,900 I was just talking to a Republican strategist who -- in a swing state who said that, 202 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:48,100 yes, that type of messaging and platform may work in a primary, 203 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:51,900 it is not going to necessarily work in a general election in these swing states. 204 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:55,133 AMNA NAWAZ: And, Leigh Ann, I talked to both Larry Hogan and Asa Hutchinson this week, 205 00:15:55,133 --> 00:15:58,300 and Chris Sununu has said the same thing. The next nominee, they say, 206 00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:03,300 has to be someone who can broaden the appeal, right, who can broaden the Republicans' support 207 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,900 beyond that MAGA base. Is there a moderate candidate that your Republican sources say 208 00:16:10,766 --> 00:16:13,833 they would get behind eventually? Is there anyone who stands out to you? 209 00:16:13,833 --> 00:16:18,833 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: That is the challenge. What candidate can get through a Republican 210 00:16:20,733 --> 00:16:24,166 primary but also win a general election? And that is the challenge that there is 211 00:16:24,166 --> 00:16:28,500 right now. I talked to a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill. Everyone has different 212 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:33,500 ideas. I will say, a lot of people do not or want someone other than Trump. 213 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:38,500 So, official Washington is looking for something else, even though he still does 214 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:43,500 have a lot of support among the base. We analyze this. And Trump-endorsed over 160 215 00:16:45,933 --> 00:16:50,933 people in the 2022 midterms and only two dozen so far have endorsed him to-date. And so he 216 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,800 does -- people are starting to look elsewhere. Who that person, that is just the big question. 217 00:17:00,866 --> 00:17:03,000 PETER BAKER: What's amazing actually is that there's -- we always talk about Trump lane 218 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,766 and a non-Trump lane, but there's only a Trumpism lane, right? To Laura's point, 219 00:17:06,766 --> 00:17:11,133 they are all running for the same candidates. They're all running as the same candidate 220 00:17:11,133 --> 00:17:16,133 except the personality of the former president himself. I can be Trump without the baggage. 221 00:17:18,166 --> 00:17:21,166 That is what DeSantis' message is, right? If you like Trump, if you like his policies, if 222 00:17:21,166 --> 00:17:26,166 you like the anti-woke culture war kind of thing, I am your guy without the indictments, right? I'm 223 00:17:28,133 --> 00:17:32,300 the guy without January 6th. I'm the guy who can move on and take this next generation. And 224 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:37,933 DeSantis gets it at age 44, I think, right? He is half the age of Biden. He can make a generational 225 00:17:39,933 --> 00:17:41,733 argument. But he's not running in a different lane than Trump. He's running in the same lane. 226 00:17:41,733 --> 00:17:44,933 AMNA NAWAZ: You don't see a ton of support from 227 00:17:44,933 --> 00:17:47,300 other senior Republicans for Ron DeSantis either, right? 228 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,633 PETER BAKER: No. But, I mean, you talked about Asa, like for instance. Asa Hutchinson, a very 229 00:17:50,633 --> 00:17:55,066 respected governor, former governor of Arkansas. He was one of the impeachment managers for Bill 230 00:17:55,066 --> 00:18:00,133 Clinton. That's when he came to fame. He's nowhere. Guys like him don't have an appeal 231 00:18:02,666 --> 00:18:04,700 because they do not have that visceral connection, right, with the core base. And the question is 232 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:08,100 for the people of the Bush wing of the party, for instance, are they willing to get behind 233 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:12,166 people like DeSantis? Very interesting to see Jeb Bush, for instance, to say that he thought 234 00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:16,700 DeSantis is doing a good job, not an endorsement, he made clear, but he said nice things about him. 235 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:20,200 LAURA BARRON LOPEZ: Yes. Another data point that just speaks to what we are talking about 236 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,200 in terms of is the Republican Party beyond Trump himself versus Trumpism is the whole 237 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,700 conversation around January 6th, and the fact that the Republican Party as a whole -- I mean, 238 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:34,400 the candidates that are potentially running do not call Trump out about January 6th, do not confront 239 00:18:36,833 --> 00:18:39,600 him about the fact that he said the Constitution should be terminated. There are Republicans beyond 240 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,400 just Marjorie Taylor Greene on the Hill that are saying, we want to take a trip to the jails 241 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,400 to see January 6th defendants and essentially revise history on January 6th. So, the party 242 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:56,100 as a whole is just essentially excusing Trump on January 6rh and trying to revise history, Amna. 243 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:00,800 AMNA NAWAZ: You've made my segue for me, which is want to -- before we go, 244 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,033 I want to ask about the fact that we have seen a revision of history unfold on Fox. Tucker Carlson, 245 00:19:07,033 --> 00:19:09,633 we know, got access to that security footage and has been kind of rewriting 246 00:19:09,633 --> 00:19:14,566 what happened on that day and claiming that it was peaceful falsely on January 6th. 247 00:19:14,566 --> 00:19:18,400 Look, we all know the role the media plays. We know the role that Fox has played in particular 248 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,966 in pushing the false claim that the 2020 election was stolen. And we know a lot 249 00:19:22,966 --> 00:19:26,933 of this is as a result of the new filings from that Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit. 250 00:19:26,933 --> 00:19:31,366 I want to share one of those text messages that was revealed as part of those filings. This is 251 00:19:31,366 --> 00:19:36,366 from Tucker Carlson on January 4th, 2021 to a colleague talking about then-President Trump, 252 00:19:39,166 --> 00:19:43,433 rather, saying, quote, we are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most 253 00:19:43,433 --> 00:19:48,433 nights. I truly can't wait. Followed by then saying, quote, I hate him passionately. 254 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,833 Peter, knowing what we know now about these private -- the private contempt for Mr. Trump, 255 00:19:55,733 --> 00:19:58,733 privately dismissing the election fraud claims while publicly pushing them, 256 00:19:58,733 --> 00:20:02,266 publicly supporting him, does any of this make a dent in the Fox base? 257 00:20:02,266 --> 00:20:04,233 PETER BAKER: Well, it's a good question. Because, basically, 258 00:20:04,233 --> 00:20:07,500 what we have learned from this is how much Fox is afraid of their own viewership, 259 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,966 right? And in some ways, it's the same way with Trump. Trump is almost afraid of his 260 00:20:10,966 --> 00:20:15,033 own base to some extent too. Why did he not brag about vaccines when he could have said, 261 00:20:15,033 --> 00:20:19,233 this is my biggest accomplishment? Because the base booed him at a rally. He became afraid 262 00:20:19,233 --> 00:20:24,233 of his own people. And that's where Fox is too. They don't want to alienate their own viewership. 263 00:20:25,866 --> 00:20:27,933 We got a hold at The New York Times, we got hold of an audiotape, 264 00:20:27,933 --> 00:20:32,400 this meeting that Fox executives had with some of the anchors after the Arizona call in 2020, 265 00:20:34,966 --> 00:20:37,600 in which they're all antsy about the fact that they were taking so much blowback. How can we make 266 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,733 a call in a state without getting this blowback from our viewers? That is not what journalism is 267 00:20:41,733 --> 00:20:45,800 supposed to be. But they are so captive to that. And I think that's been the big revelation. Does 268 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,700 it make a difference? I don't know. Most Fox viewers are not watching the Dominion lawsuit. 269 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:50,700 AMNA NAWAZ: Laura, how do you see it? 270 00:20:53,166 --> 00:20:55,833 LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Whether it makes a difference with the base, yes, I don't think we really know 271 00:20:55,833 --> 00:21:00,733 yet. When I was at CPAC and I asked people there about what was coming out in Dominion, they either 272 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,633 said, well, they excused it and then said I still believe Trump, I still believe the election was 273 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,533 stolen and they didn't necessarily say that they were going to stop watching Fox either. 274 00:21:17,066 --> 00:21:19,733 I think that when we look at what Fox did and what so many of these hosts did, I mean, it is very 275 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,400 clearly propaganda. That's what it is. Because they were deciding to prioritize their profit 276 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,866 and what they thought would be profitable, which was telling their viewers what they wanted to hear 277 00:21:35,866 --> 00:21:40,433 versus what the actual facts were, and they're promoting conspiracy theories. And one example 278 00:21:40,433 --> 00:21:45,433 of that was also Rupert Murdoch in those filings, we saw -- revealed that he wanted to help Jared 279 00:21:47,833 --> 00:21:51,900 Kushner. And so that was why he also revealed then-Candidate Biden's ads, ad buys, ahead of when 280 00:21:55,566 --> 00:21:59,666 they were released because he said he wanted to help his friend. That is not a news organization. 281 00:21:59,666 --> 00:22:01,200 AMNA NAWAZ: Leigh Ann, I'll give you the last word. We've 282 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,300 got 30 seconds left. What is your take on this? 283 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:07,800 LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: I mean, I just think that it really shines a light on what is 284 00:22:09,833 --> 00:22:12,900 happening behind the scenes. I think that looking at Fox, we as journalists look at 285 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,900 it much differently now. Now it was clear that they knew what the truth was but they decided 286 00:22:21,033 --> 00:22:25,966 to ignore it. And I think that they should have a huge credibility issue on their hands. 287 00:22:25,966 --> 00:22:29,100 We will see where this goes. And, ultimately, I don't know, though, 288 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:33,566 legally, it's enough for Dominion to win this lawsuit. I am not a lawyer. 289 00:22:33,566 --> 00:22:36,166 AMNA NAWAZ: We'll see where this goes. Thank you to you all. 290 00:22:36,166 --> 00:22:40,066 That is Washington week for tonight. Thank you so much to our panel for 291 00:22:40,066 --> 00:22:43,966 joining us and for sharing your reporting. Thanks to all of you for watching at home. 292 00:22:43,966 --> 00:22:48,966 And be sure to watch PBS News Weekend for the latest on the millions nationwide who 293 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:54,200 are at risk of losing their Medicaid coverage as the COVID public health emergency winds down. 294 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,200 I'm Amna Nawaz. Good night from Washington.