WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.920 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Hello. I'm Robert Costa. And this is the Washington Week Extra. 00:03.920 --> 00:08.090 align:start Joining me tonight, Paula Reid, White House correspondent for CBS News; Philip Rucker, 00:08.090 --> 00:12.130 align:start White House bureau chief for The Washington Post; Kimberly Atkins, senior Washington 00:12.130 --> 00:17.800 align:start correspondent for WBUR, Boston's NPR News Station; and Jerry Seib, executive Washington 00:17.800 --> 00:22.400 align:start editor for The Wall Street Journal. Sir Kim Darroch stepped down as British ambassador 00:22.400 --> 00:25.850 align:start to the United Nations (sic; States) this week after cables surfaced in which he criticized 00:25.850 --> 00:30.730 align:start President Trump. President Trump had this to say about the ambassador on Sunday. 00:30.730 --> 00:34.260 align:start PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) The ambassador has not served the U.K. 00:34.260 --> 00:39.010 align:start well, I can tell you that. We're not - we're not big fans of that man, and 00:39.010 --> 00:42.160 align:start he has not served the U.K. well. 00:42.160 --> 00:45.820 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And then the ambassador resigned and the president said this. 00:45.820 --> 00:49.880 align:start PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I wish the British ambassador well, but they've 00:49.880 --> 00:54.990 align:start got to stop their leaking problems there just like they have to stop them in our country. 00:54.990 --> 00:58.890 align:start ROBERT COSTA: His exit comes just weeks after President Trump was feted with a state 00:58.890 --> 01:02.950 align:start visit to Britain. What does this mean for the future of the special relationship between 01:02.950 --> 01:08.510 align:start the U.S. and the U.K.? Phil, you've been to the British embassy. 01:08.510 --> 01:14.730 align:start You know Sir Kim Darroch, a longtime diplomat in the - in Britain. 01:14.730 --> 01:19.720 align:start He was the national security adviser for David Cameron as a nonpartisan national security 01:19.720 --> 01:25.030 align:start adviser, well-respected in Washington. Was his situation in those cables unique or is it 01:25.030 --> 01:30.140 align:start reflective of many ambassadors in Washington struggling to understand President Trump? 01:30.140 --> 01:33.600 align:start PHILIP RUCKER: It's reflective, Bob, of I think pretty much every ambassador in 01:33.600 --> 01:38.680 align:start Washington, and those cables could have come from any embassy, and in fact they read 01:38.680 --> 01:42.440 align:start almost like the news stories that we were all writing at the time. 01:42.440 --> 01:47.480 align:start These were not particularly racy cables, but Trump obviously seized on the press coverage 01:47.480 --> 01:51.260 align:start of the cables and formed an opinion about the ambassador. 01:51.260 --> 01:54.260 align:start But we should make a couple of corrections from what Trump said. 01:54.260 --> 01:58.090 align:start His administration actually really respected Kim Darroch. They liked him. 01:58.090 --> 02:02.070 align:start They would go to the embassy - to his residence for breakfast, for dinner, for meetings. 02:02.070 --> 02:06.320 align:start Kellyanne Conway, for example, the presidential counselor, was a frequent guest at his 02:06.320 --> 02:11.410 align:start parties. So this is not somebody that the administration never liked from the beginning. 02:11.410 --> 02:14.990 align:start GERALD SEIB: And I think the story here is the - is the leak more than the cables. 02:14.990 --> 02:17.810 align:start As you said, the cables just kind of reflected conventional wisdom in Washington at the 02:17.810 --> 02:21.680 align:start time. Who in the British government wanted to leak those cables to embarrass the 02:21.680 --> 02:24.160 align:start ambassador and push him out? 02:24.160 --> 02:27.640 align:start And you've got to believe this had to do with a big fight between the pro-Brexit and 02:27.640 --> 02:32.770 align:start anti-Brexit forces in the British government, and the ambassador was roadkill, basically. 02:32.770 --> 02:35.110 align:start KIMBERLY ATKINS: And it could have complications, right? 02:35.110 --> 02:39.190 align:start I mean, assuming that Brexit actually happens at some point, that means that the United 02:39.190 --> 02:44.490 align:start States is going to have to negotiate a trade deal with Britain, and this could complicate 02:44.490 --> 02:48.710 align:start that. That's one reason why the red carpet was rolled out to President Trump when he 02:48.710 --> 02:51.370 align:start went there on that visit. 02:51.370 --> 02:55.070 align:start President Trump said afterwards that while he wasn't a fan of Theresa May, that he very 02:55.070 --> 02:59.450 align:start much appreciated what the queen did, so maybe that - (laughs) - bodes well for 02:59.450 --> 03:04.530 align:start U.S.-British relations. But there could be some real consequences of this. 03:04.530 --> 03:07.230 align:start PAULA REID: Yeah, he absolutely values that special relationship, and how do you 03:07.230 --> 03:10.160 align:start maintain a special relationship when you won't even speak to the ambassador? 03:10.160 --> 03:14.310 align:start But it was so fascinating, too, I was there to watch his interactions with the queen. 03:14.310 --> 03:19.090 align:start It seemed it was a rare instance when he felt that a foreign dignitary was giving him the 03:19.090 --> 03:24.650 align:start respect, the pomp and circumstance that he believes he deserves and that he ultimately craves. 03:24.650 --> 03:29.700 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Do you feel like Britain went to the brink trying to appeal to President 03:29.700 --> 03:32.170 align:start Trump, if you were on that visit? 03:32.170 --> 03:35.230 align:start PAULA REID: It certainly appeared that way, yeah. Every night was another dinner. 03:35.230 --> 03:38.840 align:start They brought everyone, all the players except for maybe one American princess who was on 03:38.840 --> 03:43.210 align:start maternity leave. But otherwise, everybody came to the table, and again, they put on what 03:43.210 --> 03:48.510 align:start they do best, a big show to celebrate him and to honor him, and for him that's rare. 03:48.510 --> 03:52.960 align:start GERALD SEIB: Well, you know, substantively, you have to keep in mind that the British do 03:52.960 --> 03:57.260 align:start still conduct policy closer to the U.S. than any of our other European allies. 03:57.260 --> 04:02.560 align:start I mean, just this week the British basically stopped a tanker that was carrying Iranian 04:02.560 --> 04:06.070 align:start oil near the Straits of Gibraltar, and the other Europeans are sidling away from a 04:06.070 --> 04:10.220 align:start confrontation with Iran and the Brits went right into it this week. So there is still 04:10.220 --> 04:13.730 align:start something special about this relationship and it ought not to be put at risk. 04:13.730 --> 04:17.550 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Does it continue, Phil - when you think about Boris Johnson, he may be the 04:17.550 --> 04:21.120 align:start next prime minister, a Tory, to replace Theresa May. 04:21.120 --> 04:25.710 align:start When you talk to people at the White House, what is their impression of Boris Johnson? 04:25.710 --> 04:30.630 align:start Could there be a special relationship there between President Trump and him? 04:30.630 --> 04:33.570 align:start PHILIP RUCKER: There is certainly potential for there to be a warmer relationship 04:33.570 --> 04:38.130 align:start between Trump and a Prime Minister Johnson than with Prime Minister May. For example, 04:38.130 --> 04:43.830 align:start Trump and Johnson like each other. They've connected at sort of a human/personal level. 04:43.830 --> 04:49.070 align:start But they're also more in sync politically, and there's a feeling that Boris Johnson could 04:49.070 --> 04:51.450 align:start be very good for President Trump. 04:51.450 --> 04:54.980 align:start It's noteworthy, by the way, in this past week, with the British ambassador, that Theresa 04:54.980 --> 04:59.980 align:start May came out and defended him very forcefully but Boris Johnson did not and was keeping 04:59.980 --> 05:04.710 align:start his powder dry, which I think was a signal to Ambassador Darroch that he would not be 05:04.710 --> 05:07.480 align:start welcome to serve in a Johnson administration. 05:07.480 --> 05:10.820 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And it comes to your point, Kim, maybe Boris Johnson looking ahead to 05:10.820 --> 05:14.750 align:start Downing Street is saying I need to have President Trump on my side if I want to get that 05:14.750 --> 05:17.260 align:start U.S.-U.K. trade deal. 05:17.260 --> 05:19.750 align:start KIMBERLY ATKINS: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, and I think that might have been 05:19.750 --> 05:23.820 align:start one thing that helped embolden President Trump to take as verbal, vocal a stance in 05:23.820 --> 05:27.340 align:start reaction to this leaked cable as he did. 05:27.340 --> 05:31.220 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Just one other thing tonight. We said goodbye this week to Ross Perot, 05:31.220 --> 05:35.810 align:start the Texas billionaire who ran for president twice as a third-party candidate. In 1992 he 05:35.810 --> 05:40.200 align:start faced President George H.W. Bush and then-Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, and his renegade, 05:40.200 --> 05:46.590 align:start folksy approach, populist approach, got him 19 percent of the popular vote in that year. 05:46.590 --> 05:50.990 align:start His self-financed campaign used television infomercials to broadcast his message. 05:50.990 --> 05:55.100 align:start Perot was 89. You covered Ross Perot. 05:55.100 --> 06:00.140 align:start GERALD SEIB: He was an amazing, fun guy to cover, but you know, kind of crazy at the same time. 06:00.140 --> 06:05.700 align:start But Ross Perot brought to the table everything Donald Trump capitalized on a generation later. 06:05.700 --> 06:10.060 align:start He was a billionaire businessman, self-financed political candidate, a populist; said the 06:10.060 --> 06:13.900 align:start system in Washington is broken, it's in the hands of corrupt special interests that are 06:13.900 --> 06:17.790 align:start hurting you, the average voter; and oh, by the way, these trade deals are terrible, 06:17.790 --> 06:21.210 align:start they're sucking jobs away from the U.S. Well, where did we hear that? 06:21.210 --> 06:24.680 align:start We heard that from Donald Trump all through 2016. Well, I heard it first from Ross Perot 06:24.680 --> 06:30.060 align:start in 1992 and 1996, and he was at the end of the day the most successful independent or 06:30.060 --> 06:33.770 align:start third-party candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, and he had a huge impact. 06:33.770 --> 06:36.840 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Maybe he doesn't get enough credit for being the precursor to Trump. 06:36.840 --> 06:39.260 align:start PHILIP RUCKER: He doesn't. 06:39.260 --> 06:43.790 align:start You know, the conventional wisdom about Trump is that the precursor was in the Tea Party 06:43.790 --> 06:49.850 align:start movement, Sarah Palin and all of the conservative Republicans in that 2010 cycle. 06:49.850 --> 06:54.520 align:start But Jerry's exactly right, it dates back to Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan as well. 06:54.520 --> 06:57.970 align:start GERALD SEIB: And the other thing he did was he - by doing that, he shook loose a kind of 06:57.970 --> 07:02.270 align:start a radical center bloc of voters in the political system who were not that attached to 07:02.270 --> 07:06.480 align:start either party, and after Perot were never attached to either political party. And every 07:06.480 --> 07:10.800 align:start campaign since then has been an attempt by both parties to get at those exact same voters. 07:10.800 --> 07:14.650 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Phil brought up Pat Buchanan. That's interesting, because in 1992 Pat 07:14.650 --> 07:19.430 align:start Buchanan also ran - ran as a Republican against George H.W. Bush; anti-immigration 07:19.430 --> 07:24.920 align:start message, populist message. We saw Ross Perot, businessman, outsider, but maybe that 07:24.920 --> 07:29.040 align:start wasn't enough if you're President Trump thinking about a political profile. You also need 07:29.040 --> 07:35.500 align:start that Pat Buchanan streak, anti-immigrant, coupled together, pretty potent, decades later. 07:35.500 --> 07:38.270 align:start KIMBERLY ATKINS: You do, you need all of those components. 07:38.270 --> 07:42.740 align:start You also need a major party to get behind you, which I think is - which makes Ross Perot 07:42.740 --> 07:47.660 align:start an interesting figure but one reason why, despite getting tens of millions of votes, he 07:47.660 --> 07:52.430 align:start still wasn't able to get anywhere. But it just shows that this populist streak is 07:52.430 --> 07:58.580 align:start something that is still a part of the American political landscape, and it's 07:58.580 --> 08:02.510 align:start something that both sides are continuing to look for as they become more divided. 08:02.510 --> 08:07.690 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And Ross Perot also showed how a person can go on television - he would go 08:07.690 --> 08:12.480 align:start on Larry King Live on CNN all the time to promote his national campaign. 08:12.480 --> 08:15.740 align:start He was really the beginning of someone - and we saw it with President Trump. 08:15.740 --> 08:20.150 align:start Did President Trump, you think, look at Ross Perot as a model, perhaps, just using TV as 08:20.150 --> 08:24.150 align:start a way to get elected rather than having some kind of huge campaign or political party? 08:24.150 --> 08:27.320 align:start PAULA REID: And now you have not only TV, you also have social media and Twitter. 08:27.320 --> 08:31.340 align:start You know, one thing we have to admit about President Trump is the product is exactly as 08:31.340 --> 08:37.660 align:start advertised. If the campaign was an infomercial, what you bought is exactly what you saw 08:37.660 --> 08:41.180 align:start and what you were sold. So absolutely, it's a very effective medium. 08:41.180 --> 08:45.360 align:start Really now the president has other, similar, even more powerful mediums at his disposal. 08:45.360 --> 08:47.340 align:start GERALD SEIB: Ross Perot would have been great on Twitter. (Laughter.) 08:47.340 --> 08:49.120 align:start ROBERT COSTA: He would have been great on Twitter. 08:49.120 --> 08:52.480 align:start PHILIP RUCKER: But you got to wonder if Ross Perot had a little bit more of the charisma 08:52.480 --> 08:55.890 align:start and sort of celebrity appeal that Trump had, could he have gotten more than 19 percent? Probably. 08:55.890 --> 08:59.100 align:start GERALD SEIB: Well, I'll tell you, the difference is that Perot tried to do it by going 08:59.100 --> 09:02.460 align:start around the two parties and Trump did it by going right through the heart of the Republican 09:02.460 --> 09:06.070 align:start Party and taking it over. And in a two-party system, that's how you have to do it. 09:06.070 --> 09:09.360 align:start ROBERT COSTA: That's it for this edition of the Washington Week Extra. 09:09.360 --> 09:13.460 align:start You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on the Washington Week website. 09:13.460 --> 09:16.910 align:start While you're online, check out the Washington Week-ly News Quiz. 09:16.910 --> 09:31.230 align:start I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.