1 00:00:02,366 --> 00:00:04,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: President Biden still lags in the polls, but the news is generally good for 2 00:00:04,433 --> 00:00:09,433 Democrats. Ballot measures protecting abortion win big this week in red and purple states. 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,900 SEAN HANNITY, Host, Fox News: Democrats are trying to scare women into thinking 4 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:16,266 Republicans still want abortion legal under any circumstances. 5 00:00:16,266 --> 00:00:18,300 REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): We were told that 6 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:22,300 Republicans would get tired of all the winning. Howús that working out? 7 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:24,533 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But a surprising announcement from a key Democrat 8 00:00:24,533 --> 00:00:27,033 throws the future of the Senate into question. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,500 SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I will not be running for re-election to the United States Senate. 10 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:31,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Next. 11 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,500 Itús been a busy week here and thereús much to discuss starting with Joe Manchinús 12 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:42,366 announcement and the possibility that he might run for president as an independent. 13 00:01:42,366 --> 00:01:45,566 Joining me to discuss this weekús developments are Eugene Daniels, 14 00:01:45,566 --> 00:01:50,100 a White House correspondent for Politico, and the co-author of Politicoús playbook, 15 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:55,066 Asma Khalid is a White House correspondent for NPR, Ed OúKeefe is the senior White House 16 00:01:57,066 --> 00:02:00,300 correspondent and a political correspondent for CBS News, and David Brooks is a columnist 17 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:04,300 for The New York Times, a contributing writer at The Atlantic, and the author of 18 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:09,133 How to Know a Person. So, thank you all for being here. David, welcome to the big time. 19 00:02:10,566 --> 00:02:11,800 DAVID BROOKS, Columnist, The New York Times: Thank you. 20 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,900 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: This is your -- yes. I mean, 21 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:16,733 after years of trying out on the news hour, you finally made it. I hope youúre not too nervous. 22 00:02:16,733 --> 00:02:19,400 DAVID BROOKS: I am a Washington Week virgin. So -- 23 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You are. By the way, this is the latest youúve ever stayed up. So, congratulations. 24 00:02:22,666 --> 00:02:24,700 DAVID BROOKS: Thank you for lowering your standards. 25 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:26,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thank you for being here. And weúre going to talk about How 26 00:02:26,733 --> 00:02:31,433 to Know a Person tonight. And weúre going to start by asking David, how to know Joe 27 00:02:31,433 --> 00:02:36,200 Manchin. How do we know Joe Manchin? David, why donút you start us off on this question? 28 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,600 DAVID BROOKS: Well, you tear deeply into his heart. 29 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,233 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, and his soul, right? 30 00:02:39,233 --> 00:02:42,100 DAVID BROOKS: And what you see is a guy looking at the White House. 31 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:46,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, tell us, and I want to bring everybody into this conversation, 32 00:02:46,133 --> 00:02:48,933 obviously, but tell us what it means, Joe Manchinús announcement. 33 00:02:48,933 --> 00:02:51,366 DAVID BROOKS: Yes, it means heús really interested in running for president. And 34 00:02:51,366 --> 00:02:55,033 to run for president, youúve got to get on the ballot. And thereús an organization, 35 00:02:55,033 --> 00:02:58,966 No Labels, thatús getting on the ballot. And so No Labels hasnút 36 00:02:58,966 --> 00:03:03,433 decided. Larry Hogan has said that No Labels probably wants a Republican and not him, 37 00:03:03,433 --> 00:03:08,433 if they go ahead. But I think Joe Manchin sees a window and heús going for it. 38 00:03:10,266 --> 00:03:13,633 And so, you know, what interests me is the potential end of the two-party duopoly in 39 00:03:13,633 --> 00:03:18,400 presidential races. You could have a Manchin or Hogan in No Labels. You have Cornell West. 40 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,700 You have Jill Stein. You have Robert F. Kennedy. So we could have five candidates. 41 00:03:21,700 --> 00:03:26,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, the three you just named are not exactly juggernauts. Manchin, 42 00:03:26,666 --> 00:03:29,733 theoretically, could do something. But, you know, 43 00:03:29,733 --> 00:03:32,766 weúve seen this. I mean, Asma, weúve seen this before. 44 00:03:32,766 --> 00:03:35,233 ASMA KHALID, White House Correspondent, NPR: Yes, Youúve seen this in many elections. I think the 45 00:03:35,233 --> 00:03:39,300 challenge for Joe Biden, though, is that in, I guess, recent cycles, right, if we think of 2016, 46 00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:44,133 where Donald Trump did defeat Hillary Clinton, many, you know, political analysts would say, 47 00:03:44,133 --> 00:03:49,066 many of us who covered the election, that part of that loss was due to third party candidacies. 48 00:03:49,066 --> 00:03:54,066 And so I do think all of these potentials pose challenges to Joe Biden in major part, 49 00:03:56,166 --> 00:03:59,100 because if you look at polling, there are some challenges he faces from a group of key voters, 50 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:03,800 you know, key parts of his coalition, whether that is young voters, black voters. You see 51 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,800 different parts of his base that seem to have lackluster enthusiasm for his candidacy. 52 00:04:10,766 --> 00:04:13,433 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And talk a little bit about, if you want to push back on David -- I mean, 53 00:04:13,433 --> 00:04:18,100 itús his first time, so we would sort of mandatory to push back on him. But 54 00:04:19,533 --> 00:04:22,666 do you think that Joe Manchin could actually become president? 55 00:04:22,666 --> 00:04:27,666 ED OúKEEFE, Senior White House Correspondent, CBS: Well, the answer to this question is show 56 00:04:29,533 --> 00:04:33,066 us how you get on the enough ballots to win 270 electoral votes. And unless or 57 00:04:35,033 --> 00:04:38,833 until No Labels or some other entity hires enough lawyers and signature gatherers in 58 00:04:38,833 --> 00:04:43,200 enough states to do this, itús just worthy of a conversation like this. 59 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,666 And I think part of what you have to remember with Joe Manchin is, yes, he, 60 00:04:46,666 --> 00:04:51,000 like most of the Senate, has designs on the White House, but he also is perfectly happy 61 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,200 having all of us just talk about him on Friday night because what he craves is 62 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,233 the attention that gives him the political capital to get things done in the Senate. 63 00:04:59,233 --> 00:05:01,700 And if all he has left now is a year, well, 64 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:05,400 thereús still things that are going to need to get done. And, yes, he will travel the country, 65 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,533 talking to people who are eager to hear about how there is a middle out there 66 00:05:09,533 --> 00:05:13,333 thatús thoughts and prayers are not being addressed here in Washington. 67 00:05:13,333 --> 00:05:18,333 But heús not actively engaged in the process of getting signatures and getting ballot 68 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:23,133 access. And unless or until No Labels can demonstrate that, Iúm told by his people, 69 00:05:23,133 --> 00:05:27,900 heús not terribly interested in doing this. Heús also said recently to his team, 70 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:30,800 if they think Larry Hogan is going to be the presidential candidate and Iúm going 71 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,600 to be the vice presidential candidate, they got another thing coming, Iúm not interested. 72 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. I mean, maybe this is just about the fact that he 73 00:05:37,666 --> 00:05:42,666 probably canút win his seat again in very, very, very red West Virginia. 74 00:05:44,633 --> 00:05:46,700 EUGENE DANIELS, White House Correspondent, Politico: That was very clear whoús going 75 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:48,200 to have an uphill battle. Thereús no other Democrat that could win in West 76 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:49,833 Virginia. And it was already clear he was going to have -- 77 00:05:49,833 --> 00:05:52,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thatús literally true. Thereús literally not one 78 00:05:52,933 --> 00:05:55,100 Democrat in West Virginia who could win. 79 00:05:55,100 --> 00:06:00,166 EUGENE DANIELS: And the White House tried to get him to stay in the Senate race. Now, 80 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:06,500 thatús partly because they wanted him to try to do as much as he can so they could try to 81 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:11,000 keep that Senate seat, but also because they know that he -- they didnút want him out there 82 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,700 mucking it up for them as some kind of third party candidate either with No Labels or without them. 83 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:20,066 And I will say one thing I found interesting about his video that he released is that he 84 00:06:20,066 --> 00:06:24,500 talked about creating a movement. And thatús not really how movements are made. Movements 85 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:29,500 have to come from the ground up, right? Thereús not actually the center of political universe 86 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,300 thatús coming around and saying, whereús my Joe Manchin, whereús my Larry Hogan? Thatús 87 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:38,766 not whatús happening, right? Like that is not what happened. The centrist is -- 88 00:06:38,766 --> 00:06:41,066 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Trump created a movement. There was no MAGA before 89 00:06:41,066 --> 00:06:43,900 Donald Trump. But thereús only one Donald Trump. 90 00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:48,466 EUGENE DANIELS: Like Obama created a movement as well, 91 00:06:48,466 --> 00:06:51,733 but it comes from the people have to say, I like this person. 92 00:06:51,733 --> 00:06:54,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me ask you, what else did you notice about the -- 93 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,766 EUGENE DANIELS: New haircut? 94 00:06:56,766 --> 00:07:01,766 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Presidential. Thereús our proof, very presidential haircut. 95 00:07:03,433 --> 00:07:04,966 EUGENE DANIELS: All you need, thatús a factorial choice, is all you need. 96 00:07:04,966 --> 00:07:07,066 ED OúKEEFE: And apparently youúve paint the Oval Office red. 97 00:07:07,066 --> 00:07:11,100 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: David, talk about what this means for the Senate. And youúve 98 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,266 been writing for years about centrist senators, not just Democrats, but the 99 00:07:18,633 --> 00:07:22,433 vanishing breed of moderate Republican centrist Democrats. What does this mean for the Senate? 100 00:07:23,866 --> 00:07:26,033 DAVID BROOKS: Well, they keep vanishing. So, thereús one less. 101 00:07:26,033 --> 00:07:30,266 And so, you know, one of the things -- Iúve been defending Joe Manchin, because the Biden 102 00:07:30,266 --> 00:07:34,300 administration wanted a $4 trillion spending bill, and Manchin said, no, itús a $1 trillion spending 103 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:39,300 bill. And if they had spent $4 trillion, inflation would have been through the roof. And so I think 104 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:44,833 he actually played a vital role for the Democrats, even though most Democrats really dislike the guy. 105 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,500 But you are seeing a loss of voice after voice after voice in Kyrsten Sinema and some of the 106 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:54,500 other remaining moderates have been seem genuinely in mourning that theyúre losing a teammate. 107 00:07:55,233 --> 00:07:57,266 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. 108 00:07:57,266 --> 00:07:59,333 ASMA KHALID: Youúre seeing the same though on the Republican side. I mean, 109 00:07:59,333 --> 00:08:01,433 isnút that just indicative of the way that politics is in this moment in this country, 110 00:08:01,433 --> 00:08:06,133 that thereús really very little appetite for allegedly a centrist moderate movement? 111 00:08:08,066 --> 00:08:10,066 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, letús talk about the two other senators, Brown and Tester, 112 00:08:10,066 --> 00:08:15,066 who are running for -- Democrats, who are running for re-election in red states, 113 00:08:16,666 --> 00:08:20,266 one very red state and one pretty red state. What are their chances? 114 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:23,566 ED OúKEEFE: So, you thought it was Sherrod Brown of Ohio and Jon Tester of Montana? 115 00:08:23,566 --> 00:08:25,566 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Tester of Montana. 116 00:08:25,566 --> 00:08:27,566 ED OúKEEFE: Sherrod Brown after this week is probably thinking why couldnút 117 00:08:27,566 --> 00:08:30,600 we hold that abortion referendum next year, because that might have helped him. But John 118 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,300 Tester wisely sent out a fundraising note just minutes after Manchinús announcement saying, 119 00:08:34,300 --> 00:08:39,100 well, now all the money and the attention is coming to me, you need to help me out. And, 120 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:42,700 yes, both of them now become mission critical for Democrats. 121 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:47,066 But theyúre also now, youúre going to hear conversation about, well, could we make a 122 00:08:47,066 --> 00:08:52,066 play for Texas? Colin Allred, whoús the leading Democratic contender, has raised a lot of money, 123 00:08:54,133 --> 00:08:56,200 is pretty popular in that state. Ted Cruz is on the ballot, or do you go down 124 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,933 to Florida and hope that Rick Scott somehow stumbles and maybe you get a pick up there. 125 00:08:59,933 --> 00:09:03,533 There are still ways for Democrats to hold, or at least get to 50-50, 126 00:09:03,533 --> 00:09:06,700 and then if they win the White House, have that vote, 127 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:10,600 which will challenge the vice presidentús future ambitions, if thatús where weúre headed. 128 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,600 But all is not necessarily lost and you still have the potential to pick up or hold, essentially, 129 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:23,700 you would hold a seat in Arizona. Races in Nevada are always competitive, but Democrats usually eek 130 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:28,700 it out. So, it will be close. But, certainly, those two moderates are now the ones to watch. 131 00:09:30,733 --> 00:09:34,066 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. I want to come to the abortion issue for the Democrats, a huge issue, 132 00:09:34,066 --> 00:09:39,066 but stay on the subject of these third-party candidates. I mean, Joe Manchin is a serious 133 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:45,300 player in American politics. RFK Jr. gets a lot of attention. Jill Stein gets less 134 00:09:47,233 --> 00:09:50,600 attention. Cornell West gets attention in a very limited segment of the Democratic left. 135 00:09:53,133 --> 00:09:56,300 But are Democrats right to be worried, mainstream party Democrats, Joe Biden re-elect Democrats? 136 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:02,700 EUGENE DANIELS: Absolutely they should be worried, because it only takes a sliver, 137 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:07,700 that sliver of the left that Cornell West can pull from in a couple of these states. And 138 00:10:09,633 --> 00:10:12,700 thatús a rap for Joe Biden, right? You can -- as you were talking about 2016, 139 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:16,666 a lot of Hillary Clinton supporters and folks that worked on her campaign, 140 00:10:16,666 --> 00:10:21,666 when Jill Stein announced, they were on Twitter, or X, excuse me, talking about how she would -- 141 00:10:22,833 --> 00:10:24,833 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We can call it Twitter here. 142 00:10:24,833 --> 00:10:27,500 EUGENE DANIELS: Letús say Space -- talking about how she is the reason that Hillary 143 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,500 Clinton lost Michigan, or Wisconsin picked one of those blue wall states, 144 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:34,033 right? And I think that is something this White House and this campaign, theyúre not 145 00:10:36,033 --> 00:10:39,366 saying it out loud, but they are worried about it. Theyúre concerned about it. 146 00:10:39,366 --> 00:10:42,500 DAVID BROOKS: I think the political world is just radically more unstable than it was even 147 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:46,766 four years ago. People are just really annoyed. Theyúre furious at the state of the country, 148 00:10:46,766 --> 00:10:50,033 their fears of the direction, and itús right for some sort of disruption that 149 00:10:50,033 --> 00:10:55,000 we canút even see. And they want a younger guy like Joe Manchin whoús 76. 150 00:10:57,066 --> 00:10:59,700 ASMA KHALID: I agree with the sense that I do think you just need a sliver, 151 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:03,833 and I think it depends on certain votes, right? I mean, Iúve heard a lot from voters and folks just 152 00:11:05,933 --> 00:11:08,000 within the party system about Michigan, right, because of whatús going on with Israel and Gaza, 153 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,100 youúve heard that some of the Arab-American community is upset there. Michigan is a state 154 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:17,100 that Hillary Clinton lost by 10,000 votes. You know, these are slivers or tiny percentages, 155 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,033 but Democrats really canút afford to lose a state like Michigan. 156 00:11:22,033 --> 00:11:24,500 And you get the sense that they are aware of that. Theyúre trying 157 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:27,500 to reach out to some of the younger, more progressive voters. But, again, 158 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:30,866 some of those younger, more progressive voters arenút really aligned with Biden 159 00:11:30,866 --> 00:11:34,066 on a host of other issues. Theyúre frustrated about student loan debt, some other issues. 160 00:11:34,066 --> 00:11:36,033 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But what are the chances - - letús stay on that for one second. What 161 00:11:36,033 --> 00:11:41,000 are the chances that significant number of Arab-American voters in Michigan go to Trump? 162 00:11:43,566 --> 00:11:45,700 ASMA KHALID: I donút think a significant number would go to Trump. What I hear is that they would 163 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:50,266 sit it out. And I had met folks who sat it out in 2016. I, in fact, went to go to a reporting 164 00:11:52,266 --> 00:11:55,800 trip ahead of the 2020 election, specifically met young black voters and young Arab-American 165 00:11:58,333 --> 00:12:01,000 voters who sat it out in 2016. They just didnút like Hillary Clinton. They gave Biden a chance. 166 00:12:03,333 --> 00:12:05,766 Thatús the danger, is losing some of those folks to sit it out or potentially go third party. 167 00:12:05,766 --> 00:12:10,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right. Speaking of reporting trips, you recently went to Arizona, 168 00:12:10,133 --> 00:12:13,900 among other places. You were in South Carolina today actually with the vice 169 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:18,900 president. Thank you for taking a nap or Red Bull or whatever got you here. But you 170 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:26,033 were there talking a lot about abortion. I want to sort of focus in on that issue. 171 00:12:26,033 --> 00:12:31,033 How regretful are some Republican strategists that the Supreme Court ruled in their favor? 172 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,733 ASMA KHALID: I mean, so what I hear from Republicans, 173 00:12:35,733 --> 00:12:39,800 as well as Democrats in the state of Arizona, is they see that if abortion is on the ballot, 174 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,100 which it very well could be in the state of Arizona in 2024, that poses a real challenge 175 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:48,533 for Republicans. Because much like what you saw in Ohio, Arizona is currently there gathering 176 00:12:48,533 --> 00:12:53,500 signatures to put this ballot referendum on, to put a constitutional right for abortion in 2024. 177 00:12:55,366 --> 00:12:58,366 I was out just tag-teaming, watching people do these ballot signatures, 178 00:12:58,366 --> 00:13:01,900 voter after voter, afterwards Iúd interview them. And they would say, you know, Iúm not 179 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:05,300 really aligned with the Democratic Party. Some of them, Republicans, some of them, 180 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:10,300 like, I donút like anybody, but they were out there to sign this ballot referendum. 181 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,766 And thatús the thinking Democrats have, and that is the fear Republicans have, is that 182 00:13:14,766 --> 00:13:18,666 voters will turn out for this abortion issue. And while theyúre there, hey, just vote for the -- 183 00:13:18,666 --> 00:13:20,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: They might just vote for it. 184 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:24,033 ED OúKEEFE: And it may happen in Florida as well. So, you could see, if not the Senate race, 185 00:13:24,033 --> 00:13:29,033 House candidates benefit from this in Florida. New York is going to have one of these ballot 186 00:13:30,966 --> 00:13:33,466 issues next year. And you think to yourself, well, blue New York. But the more Democrats 187 00:13:33,466 --> 00:13:38,133 show up in suburban New York City, in the five or six House districts that could flip 188 00:13:38,133 --> 00:13:43,133 from red to blue, and then youúd have Speaker Hakeem Jeffries, this is why Democrats want it. 189 00:13:44,666 --> 00:13:46,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Quick reporting question for you. You were just 190 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:50,333 in Florida this week at a Trump rally. Did he talk about abortion? 191 00:13:52,333 --> 00:13:55,566 ED OúKEEFE: No, didnút come up nearly as much as it did at the debate ten miles away, 192 00:13:55,566 --> 00:14:00,566 and the way it comes up now with Democrats. I mean, he takes credit for putting judges on the 193 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,333 bench who have ruled in favor of more restrictive abortion rights or of ending Roe versus Wade, 194 00:14:07,333 --> 00:14:11,666 because he understands in a Republican primary, you have to do that. But, ultimately, if he makes 195 00:14:11,666 --> 00:14:15,266 it to the general, and said one reason why there are a lot of Republicans who believe he wonút win, 196 00:14:15,266 --> 00:14:19,333 because Democrats will remind everyone he put the judges on the court that made this happen. 197 00:14:19,333 --> 00:14:23,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thereús something interesting about -- Trump seems to not 198 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,800 be heard as much by this abortion backlash, or maybe Iúm maybe Iúm over-reading events 199 00:14:30,433 --> 00:14:33,600 right now. But could this actually hurt him or is it a down ballot 200 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,000 kind of problem for Republicans next year? EUGENE DANIELS: I think it could hurt every 201 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,500 single Republican, right? I mean, if heús the nominee, that is something thatús going to be 202 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:45,233 on the minds of voters when they head into the ballot box, right, when they head to go vote. 203 00:14:45,233 --> 00:14:50,233 I think all of us have been surprised by the saliency of abortion, right? Like, I think, 204 00:14:50,233 --> 00:14:54,533 you know, people thought the midterms shore, some of these special elections that happened 205 00:14:54,533 --> 00:14:59,533 in 2022 shore, but weúre in November of 2023 and voters are still voting on 206 00:15:01,633 --> 00:15:04,266 the side of abortion access because, like those voters that you talk to in Arizona, 207 00:15:04,266 --> 00:15:08,666 when you talk to people, they donút -- Americans do not like things taken away from them, right? 208 00:15:08,666 --> 00:15:12,300 They do not like, that is something that we feel very strongly about. Once we have 209 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:14,900 something, we donút want to take it away from us, 210 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:19,033 you know? And so that is what the Republican Party is learning the hard way at this point. 211 00:15:19,033 --> 00:15:22,633 And itús not an issue of messaging because thereús a lot of Republicans in Virginia, 212 00:15:22,633 --> 00:15:25,433 for example, Glenn Youngkin, the governor there, was saying, well, 213 00:15:25,433 --> 00:15:29,200 if we just talk about it a little differently and say 15 weeks instead of 6 weeks, 214 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,066 thatús going to be the thing. Itús not an issue of messaging, exactly. Itús 215 00:15:32,066 --> 00:15:37,066 not messaging. It is a policy issue that they have with a lot of the voters in this country. 216 00:15:39,066 --> 00:15:41,700 DAVID BROOKS: Yes. And the broader lesson of the election is itús not only on abortion, 217 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:45,133 but all sorts of cultural wars had lost saliency. And so if thereús anything we learned that Glenn 218 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,166 Youngkinús not personal defeat, but the Republican Partyús defeat in Virginia, 219 00:15:49,166 --> 00:15:54,100 itús no longer when Glenn Youngkin got elected. And Andy Beshearús victory in Kentucky, 220 00:15:56,066 --> 00:15:59,033 the governor got re-elected. And he was running like bread and butter practicalities. 221 00:15:59,033 --> 00:16:03,500 And so I think the lesson for Joe Biden is, A, run -- as David Axelrod has been saying, 222 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:08,133 run a comparison campaign. And I would add run a prosaic campaign. Donút make it about who 223 00:16:08,133 --> 00:16:12,933 do you like less. Make it about Iúm giving your student debt, Iúm giving you prescription drugs, 224 00:16:12,933 --> 00:16:16,866 just concrete products. And I think if Joe Biden makes the campaign against about himself, 225 00:16:16,866 --> 00:16:20,933 thatús probably bad idea. But if he can make it about the products he can deliver, infrastructure 226 00:16:20,933 --> 00:16:24,700 spending, all that kind of stuff, and itús off him and itús here is concrete benefits. 227 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:26,433 ASMA KHALID: And theyúve struggled to get that message out. I mean, 228 00:16:26,433 --> 00:16:31,000 I go on trips with them where the $35 insulin fee right now, 229 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,533 that gets a rip roaring applause. But it is something that hasnút managed to translate. And 230 00:16:35,533 --> 00:16:39,866 I came back and I told my editor Iúm so shocked insulin is like a huge applause line, but it is. 231 00:16:39,866 --> 00:16:44,833 ED OúKEEFE: And the vice president talked about it today in South Carolina in a crowd 232 00:16:44,833 --> 00:16:48,100 full of black voters. I mean, they know. Thatús the base. Youúve got to 233 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:52,133 remind them of that. And when you remind the one person there, they go remind their kids, 234 00:16:52,133 --> 00:16:56,133 their neighbors, and thatús why you got to go vote. Theyúre very formulaic about it. 235 00:16:56,133 --> 00:16:58,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to go to this. You use the word comparison, 236 00:16:58,933 --> 00:17:03,933 a comparison election. Weúve been talking a lot on this show everywhere in Washington about age, 237 00:17:06,266 --> 00:17:09,833 specifically Bidenús age and cognitive abilities. There are a lot of people on 238 00:17:09,833 --> 00:17:14,233 the right who say that heús lost much of his cognitive ability. 239 00:17:15,666 --> 00:17:17,833 I want to play a couple of clips from this week to 240 00:17:17,833 --> 00:17:22,833 show you -- to complicate that narrative a little bit. Iúm going to roll those. 241 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:30,700 JOE BIDEN, U.S. President: You okay? I want the press to know that wasnút me. 242 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,633 DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. President: The press hates when I say theyúre smart. He 243 00:17:36,633 --> 00:17:41,633 said they were smart. Well, what am I supposed to say? Theyúre stupid people? 244 00:17:43,533 --> 00:17:46,866 Kim Jong-un leads 1.4 billion people and thereús no doubt about who the boss is. 245 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,400 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Now, you know whatús interesting about 246 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,800 that latter clip? I mean, the first one is interesting because Biden seems pretty sharp, 247 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,100 funny, right, maybe not the fastest moving guy in the world, but sharper. 248 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:06,100 The second part, if Joe Biden came out and said that North Korea has 1.4 billion people, 249 00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:12,066 weúd all be all over that. Oh my god, the president of the United 250 00:18:12,066 --> 00:18:15,300 States doesnút know that heús talking about China, not North Korea, right? 251 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:19,233 With Trump, maybe itús all baked in to peopleús assumptions about 252 00:18:19,233 --> 00:18:21,266 what he knows and what he doesnút know. 253 00:18:21,266 --> 00:18:24,133 ED OúKEEFE: But this is different. He didnút used to do this. And this is the 254 00:18:24,133 --> 00:18:29,133 one change weúve seen in him in the last few years, and even in the last just few months, 255 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:33,133 that heús confusing names and places. He did with Turkey and Hungary a few weeks ago. 256 00:18:33,133 --> 00:18:37,733 And, yes, theyúll look at us and say, you guys are nitpicking in the details. But when 257 00:18:37,733 --> 00:18:41,933 you take it all collectively, it signals something has changed in their behavior. 258 00:18:41,933 --> 00:18:43,733 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, weúre all supposed to be -- as voters, 259 00:18:43,733 --> 00:18:47,066 weúre all supposed to be judging the abilities in preparation of a -- 260 00:18:47,066 --> 00:18:50,400 ED OúKEEFE: And that was a good event for the president. It was a labor union event. It was 261 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,733 a victory for him and for labor unions. He, of course, calls himself the most pro-labor 262 00:18:54,733 --> 00:18:59,333 president in modern times. They havenút all been like that though recently. And the thing 263 00:18:59,333 --> 00:19:04,333 is heús going to need a lot more days, like that event in Illinois, to start turning that around. 264 00:19:06,833 --> 00:19:08,966 ASMA KHALID: I think some of this is somebody who covers the White House is part of itús about 265 00:19:08,966 --> 00:19:13,100 access, right? I mean, I do think that Trump, weúve all seen him, heús readily been available, 266 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,833 even during his days in the White House. And one of the things that you -- I think we both could 267 00:19:17,833 --> 00:19:20,833 agree and come in the White House, is President Biden has not been readily available to the press. 268 00:19:20,833 --> 00:19:25,833 And the more, say, missteps you make, the less they become a news story, 269 00:19:27,266 --> 00:19:29,100 because people just get more comfortable seeing -- 270 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,200 ED OúKEEFE: Remember the crazy Uncle Joe? We knew that when he was in the 271 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,000 Senate. We knew that when he was in the vice presidency. 272 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: He would just say anything. 273 00:19:35,666 --> 00:19:37,666 ED OúKEEFE: Because heúd say anything and people said, oh, whatever. 274 00:19:37,666 --> 00:19:39,800 DAVID BROOKS: Iúve been interviewing the guy for 30 years, not to play the old guy 275 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,533 card here, but sorry. And I interviewed him several times in the White House, 276 00:19:46,533 --> 00:19:49,766 and he is basically with it. Heús like a pitcher who used to throw 80, 85. 277 00:19:49,766 --> 00:19:52,166 ASMA KHALID: He can answer questions under the plane, under the wing, no problem. 278 00:19:52,166 --> 00:19:54,800 DAVID BROOKS: And so, in some ways, heús a little better than what it used to interview him, 279 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,733 because he used to try to pack every fact in the known universe into every answer. And now heús got 280 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:05,000 some message to discipline. But people think heús a doddering old grandpa. Itús not true. 281 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,266 ASMA KHALID: But why not make him more available? 282 00:20:08,266 --> 00:20:11,333 ED OúKEEFE: Thatús what it is. And hereús what happens. This is happening again this week. Bad 283 00:20:11,333 --> 00:20:15,466 polls come out. He comes and starts talking to us again for a few days. And we go, oh look, 284 00:20:15,466 --> 00:20:20,133 heús accessible. Bad news happens and he stops talking to us. And thatús exactly what happened. 285 00:20:20,133 --> 00:20:23,400 He spent two times talking to you guys, or to the reporters going to 286 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,500 Illinois. Then Joe Manchin drops out and suddenly we donút see him again, 287 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:29,100 because the bad news happened. Last time it was something with his son. 288 00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:33,466 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, President Biden, youúre invited to this show. Anytime weúll 289 00:20:33,466 --> 00:20:37,466 get this group together. Itús going to -- we could talk for as long as you like. No, 290 00:20:37,466 --> 00:20:41,333 no, no, I mean youúre probably -- youúre probably on to something. I mean, it always 291 00:20:41,333 --> 00:20:46,300 is a bit self-serving when we say, oh, just talk more to us. But thereús something to be said for 292 00:20:48,866 --> 00:20:52,866 like lowering the mystery or removing that shroud of mystery around his health or his cognitive. 293 00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:56,866 I mean, weúre also comparing apples and oranges, because Donald Trump 294 00:20:56,866 --> 00:21:01,833 has a whole set of other issues related to his behavior, his relationship to reality, 295 00:21:04,033 --> 00:21:07,800 relationship to the truth. Iúm trying to like say this as diplomatically as 296 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,400 possible and hoping that David brooks comes in and rescues him from his cul-de-sac. 297 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,700 DAVID BROOKS: The cavalry is here. 298 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:14,933 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Thank you. 299 00:21:14,933 --> 00:21:16,966 DAVID BROOKS: You know, I think -- 300 00:21:16,966 --> 00:21:18,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Heús not a traditional politician the way Joe Biden is. 301 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,400 DAVID BROOKS: The big question for this presidential election for me is, 302 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,800 I have a feeling and itús only an instinct, but based on a lot of reality, that itús going to be 303 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,800 a foreign policy election. The world is getting a lot more dangerous. The Middle East has blown up, 304 00:21:31,766 --> 00:21:34,200 Ukraine has blown up, weúre ripe for something in Asia. And how will the 305 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,433 country react? Who do they think is the safe repair of hands when the worldús on 306 00:21:38,433 --> 00:21:42,733 fire? And itús not really clear to me what the answer to that question is. 307 00:21:42,733 --> 00:21:45,333 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Wait, itús not clear to you the answer to the question or the answer to -- 308 00:21:45,333 --> 00:21:48,133 DAVID BROOKS: About whether they think -- I mean, I think Biden is well positioned for 309 00:21:48,133 --> 00:21:51,466 a foreign policy election because thatús what heús been doing his whole life. And he actually 310 00:21:51,466 --> 00:21:56,433 has a cohesive theory about the world fighting authoritarianism and Donald Trump has no theory. 311 00:21:58,533 --> 00:22:02,433 And in Ukraine, heús clearly, in my view, on the wrong side, but he doesnút want to get involved. 312 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,133 In the Middle East, you guys are no better than I, but what Iúve heard Trump say about 313 00:22:06,133 --> 00:22:10,633 the Middle East is some random word salad. I see no policy there at all. 314 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:15,633 EUGENE DANIELS: I mean, I think youúre right. I think President Biden is attempting to make it 315 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,700 a foreign policy election. I donút know if thatús actually going to work. Voters tend 316 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:23,833 to only care about foreign policy when itús American boots or American lives. 317 00:22:23,833 --> 00:22:25,500 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I was just going to say, like, 318 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:27,700 weúre not talking about Afghanistan anymore. That was the crisis that 319 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:31,600 was going to tear down this presidency. And I donút know, I mean, if the war -- 320 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,700 ASMA KHALID: Yes. I think also the Democratic Party itself. His 321 00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:37,400 coalition of voters are not unified if weúre talking about the Middle East. So, 322 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,033 I think it would behoove him or the Democratic Party to not make it a foreign policy. 323 00:22:42,033 --> 00:22:44,666 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Can I -- in the few minutes that we have remaining, 324 00:22:44,666 --> 00:22:48,733 a couple minutes we have remaining, can I talk about the fact that Trump is almost 325 00:22:48,733 --> 00:22:53,700 certainly going to be the nominee and that the debates that weúre watching seemingly 326 00:22:55,766 --> 00:22:59,133 every week are a little bit of a tryout, beauty contest for V.P. I just wanted you 327 00:23:01,066 --> 00:23:04,466 to watch one fascinating moment from the from the debate just a couple days ago. 328 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:09,566 VIVEK RAMASWAMY, Republican Presidential Candidate: In the last debate, she made 329 00:23:09,566 --> 00:23:12,900 fun of me for actually joining TikTok while her own daughter was actually using the app 330 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,066 for a long time So, you might want to take care of your family first -- 331 00:23:16,066 --> 00:23:18,500 NIKKI HALEY, Republican Presidential Candidate: Leave my daughter out of your voice. 332 00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,200 VIVEK RAMASWAMY: The next generation of Americans are using. 333 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,266 NIKKI HALEY: Youúre just scum. 334 00:23:23,266 --> 00:23:27,200 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, youúre just scum. That was a pretty exciting moment. 335 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,200 We only have a couple of minutes left, but I did want to get your quick views 336 00:23:34,066 --> 00:23:38,133 on who he might be thinking about for vice president and why that person. 337 00:23:40,766 --> 00:23:44,466 ASMA KHALID: I mean if character and temperament is what heús looking for in someone who is akin 338 00:23:44,466 --> 00:23:48,933 to him, Vivek Ramaswamy seems to be his candidate on stage. 339 00:23:48,933 --> 00:23:51,300 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Very elegantly put. 340 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,633 ED OúKEEFE: His team would tell you theyúre looking at -- theyúre 341 00:23:53,633 --> 00:23:58,633 keeping an eye on Nikki Haley and Tim Scott They bring two different sets of 342 00:24:00,666 --> 00:24:02,800 skills and backgrounds. But, obviously, her with the foreign policy experience, 343 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,700 being a woman, being a governor, thereús a certain set of experiences. Tim Scott, 344 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:11,400 African-American, a senator, affable, well liked and probably wonút go the distance. 345 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,600 EUGENE DANIELS: I think those two choices are interesting. Kristi Noem, governor 346 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,733 of South Dakota, thereús a relationship. Theyúve had a rift a little bit at times. 347 00:24:17,733 --> 00:24:19,700 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Everybody has a rift. 348 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:20,900 EUGENE DANIELS: Also this one, I think, is scary for a lot of people, 349 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:24,200 Kari Lake out of Arizona is also one that -- 350 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,833 DAVID BROOKS: I donút agree with that. I mean, Kanye West is the obvious choice, 351 00:24:26,833 --> 00:24:30,633 Sarah Huckabee Sanders, maybe Elise Stefanik. I donút know. But I would 352 00:24:30,633 --> 00:24:33,133 go to Kari Lake. I thought sheúd be my favorite. 353 00:24:33,133 --> 00:24:38,133 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, again, How to Know a Person, take it from David Brooks, 354 00:24:40,166 --> 00:24:43,666 everybody should read this book. Iúm going to gift this book to some lucky panelist. 355 00:24:43,666 --> 00:24:45,700 DAVID BROOKS: You will laugh. You will cry. 356 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:48,800 JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You will laugh. You will cry. I want everybody to read 357 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,800 wonderful book. David itús great to have you. Everybody, itús great to have you. 358 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,500 Unfortunately, we have to leave it there for now but I want to 359 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,800 thank our panelists for joining us and for sharing your reporting. 360 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,600 Tune in tomorrow to PBS News Weekend for a look at a unique new program that 361 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,066 helps military veterans with PTSD and depression. 362 00:25:06,066 --> 00:25:09,300 And before we go, we want to take a moment to remember my friend, 363 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:13,500 Gwen Ifill, ground breaking journalist and longtime moderator of this program, 364 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:18,500 who passed away seven years ago this week. We miss her voice and we miss her moral clarity. 365 00:25:20,066 --> 00:25:23,133 Iúm Jeffrey Goldberg. Good night from Washington.