1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520 ROBERT COSTA: Fallout over foreign intelligence. I'm Robert Costa. Welcome to Washington 2 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:13,500 Week. Tensions between the United States and Iran following explosions on two oil tankers. 3 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,970 SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO: (From video.) Iran should meet diplomacy with diplomacy, 4 00:00:16,970 --> 00:00:19,840 not with terror, bloodshed, and extortion. 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,870 ROBERT COSTA: Backtrack. President Trump now says he would alert the FBI if a 6 00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:30,760 foreign power offered him political dirt one day after he scoffed at the idea. 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:36,140 All this as Speaker Pelosi holds the line on impeachment. 8 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:38,930 HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): (From video.) I don't think there's anything more 9 00:00:38,930 --> 00:00:41,920 divisive we can do than to impeach a president of the United States. 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,060 And so you have to handle it with great care. 11 00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:48,100 ROBERT COSTA: We cover it all, next. 12 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:58,840 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,960 ROBERT COSTA: President Trump insisted on Friday that Iran was responsible for the 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,840 recent explosions on two tankers, bringing the United States and Iran closer to a 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,780 confrontation. On Thursday two petrochemical tankers were crippled in the Gulf of Oman, 16 00:01:14,780 --> 00:01:19,890 an area that is key for global energy supplies. U.S. military leaders released photos 17 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:25,790 and this video, which they claim show Iranian special forces removing an unexploded mine. 18 00:01:25,790 --> 00:01:29,780 Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called it a crisis moment. 19 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:33,800 SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO: (From video.) Taken as a whole, these unprovoked attacks 20 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,280 present a clear threat to international peace and security, a blatant assault on the 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:44,290 freedom of navigation, and an unacceptable campaign of escalating tension by Iran. 22 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:48,290 ROBERT COSTA: But Iran has denied involvement and accused the Trump administration of 23 00:01:48,290 --> 00:01:51,360 stoking talk of war. 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,490 Joining me tonight are four of the sharpest reporters who cover this president: Peter 25 00:01:55,490 --> 00:02:00,880 Baker, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times; Yamiche Alcindor, White 26 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:06,450 House correspondent for the PBS NewsHour; Ashley Parker, White House reporter for The 27 00:02:06,450 --> 00:02:12,550 Washington Post; and Eamon Javers, Washington correspondent for CNBC. 28 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:17,590 Peter, when you look at all of the facts and all of the different cues from this 29 00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:22,550 administration, is President Trump leaning toward military intervention? 30 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:26,020 PETER BAKER: That's a great question. He was very straightforward today in saying that 31 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:29,960 Iran is responsible, didn't hedge it. He said it's got, essentially, Iran written all 32 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,770 over it. And yet, if you listen to what he was saying, he was not threatening action. 33 00:02:33,770 --> 00:02:38,330 He didn't actually use the more bombastic terminology that he often does, and he even 34 00:02:38,330 --> 00:02:41,960 said, for instance, that he was still open to talks if the Iranians wanted to have it - 35 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,890 I'm ready when they are, he said; I'm not in a rush. And I think he was trying to 36 00:02:45,890 --> 00:02:48,910 be more measured - more measured, perhaps, than his more hawkish advisors - 37 00:02:48,910 --> 00:02:53,870 Mike Pompeo, John Bolton, who are more forward-leaning, I think, on Iran. 38 00:02:53,870 --> 00:02:58,920 This is a president who for all of his, you know, bellicose language, is actually not 39 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:03,040 somebody who's eager to get into war overseas. So I think he's holding back at the moment. 40 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,240 ROBERT COSTA: Is that what your reporting tells you? 41 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Is the president still this non-interventionist at heart, but he's surrounded by hawks 42 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,930 like National Security Adviser John Bolton? 43 00:03:11,930 --> 00:03:16,140 ASHLEY PARKER: Well, he is until he isn't. On the whole he is an anti-interventionalist. 44 00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:21,790 There's a couple core values he holds despite being not particularly ideological, and 45 00:03:21,790 --> 00:03:27,130 that is one of them. And especially he was pretty forward - not always - but against 46 00:03:27,130 --> 00:03:31,950 the Iraq War, and so it's sort of the same region, the same concerns you have rising up. 47 00:03:31,950 --> 00:03:34,560 Is it Iran? He said very forcefully it was. 48 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,160 But there was some talk that no one has actually provided the evidence and there would 49 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,540 be some hesitancy to getting into a war in that region with no evidence. But again, in 50 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:46,630 addition to being surrounded by these hardline hawks, the president is also someone who 51 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:51,880 can be provoked. Everything is about him and his ego, and he doesn't like to be diminished. 52 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,510 And so there is a world in which, if Iran - there's a tweet that provokes him or goes too 53 00:03:56,510 --> 00:04:01,370 far, or a statement, he could change his position on a dime and then, frankly, change back again. 54 00:04:01,370 --> 00:04:05,130 ROBERT COSTA: It all comes down to this video that we saw from Secretary of State Pompeo. 55 00:04:05,130 --> 00:04:10,020 The Japanese shipping company involved has contested the U.S.'s conclusion that it was 56 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:14,370 definitely Iran. Is the U.S. going to stand by this video? 57 00:04:14,370 --> 00:04:17,400 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: It seems as though the U.S. is going to stand by this video. 58 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,660 I, in some ways, share Ashley's idea of the fact that people can change their mind, 59 00:04:21,660 --> 00:04:25,860 including the president being the key person who is obviously always changing his mind. 60 00:04:25,860 --> 00:04:29,690 I've talked to some sources that are part of the national security apparatus and are 61 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:33,590 White House advisors, and they've been really stressing the idea that Iran is this 62 00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:38,120 corrupt nation in the U.S.'s eyes, that they are someone who has corrupted the national 63 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,950 banks in their country, they're someone who's really a bad actor in that region. 64 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:46,220 But I think it's - so in some ways I think the president has been clear about the fact 65 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:51,420 that he thinks this is Iran because of that - those background ideas. That being said, 66 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:56,470 who knows where this goes? Because I think the president, as both Peter and Ashley said, 67 00:04:56,470 --> 00:05:00,410 he was someone who got into this race understanding that war was not what his 68 00:05:00,410 --> 00:05:03,830 supporters wanted. And I remember thinking - talking to this woman in Pennsylvania 69 00:05:03,830 --> 00:05:06,960 who was very concerned about the Iran nuclear deal. 70 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,930 So these are people, I think, that sometimes are talked about as working-class 71 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:14,840 people who are interested in the economy and other things; as a reporter, I was taken 72 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,500 aback by the fact that she was really focused on the Iran nuclear deal. 73 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:19,870 She was really focused on not getting into more wars. 74 00:05:19,870 --> 00:05:22,450 ROBERT COSTA: But people are focused on the economy. When you're over at CNBC and you're 75 00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:26,340 talking to investors, what do they think this whole standoff means for the global economy? 76 00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:28,740 EAMON JAVERS: Well, look, the oil market is looking right at this. 77 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:33,490 And as we were covering the Mike Pompeo statement yesterday, one of the, I think, real 78 00:05:33,490 --> 00:05:37,180 tells there was Pompeo emphasized that this is - there's going to be a diplomatic and 79 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:41,110 economic response here. You know, he kept all the options on the table, as they 80 00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:45,300 always do, but he was really emphasizing diplomacy and economic response. 81 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:48,660 So I think that sends a signal to the market that this is a government in the United 82 00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:52,040 States that doesn't want to get into a shooting war in the Gulf, doesn't want to be in a 83 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,850 shooting war with Iran, and will do what it can to keep out of that. 84 00:05:55,850 --> 00:05:58,900 So I think that sent a message of reassurance to global markets, but that's - 85 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,100 ROBERT COSTA: Could it affect gas prices this summer? 86 00:06:01,100 --> 00:06:03,630 EAMON JAVERS: Absolutely it could, yeah. Absolutely it could. 87 00:06:03,630 --> 00:06:07,040 I mean, that is - it is - if you look at the map, the Gulf there is such a tiny little 88 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,530 space, and so much of the world's oil goes through there, and there are so many hostile 89 00:06:10,530 --> 00:06:14,920 countries and military forces right there that it's just a real bottleneck. 90 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,400 ROBERT COSTA: Coming back to the foreign policy challenge here, what kind of test is this for 91 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,990 President Trump? He's faced a lot, but this is a particular bringing him close to the brink. 92 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:27,540 PETER BAKER: Well, it is a test. It's a test on two levels. One, it's a test in terms 93 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:35,870 of his handling of Iran, right? How do you exercise a tough policy, which is what he wants, 94 00:06:35,870 --> 00:06:40,510 short of getting into a shooting war - through sanctions, through diplomacy, what have you? 95 00:06:40,510 --> 00:06:44,180 Right now he's trying to convince the Europeans that he's right about these tankers - 96 00:06:44,180 --> 00:06:47,170 there's some skepticism there - and that's the second test. The second test is this 97 00:06:47,170 --> 00:06:50,450 is not a president whose relationship with the truth has been particularly close. 98 00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:54,610 And we've seen this now for three presidents, right? Ever since George W. Bush 99 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:59,700 and the Iraq War went south with the failure to find WMD, the public at large, the 100 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:03,680 world at large has been skeptical of Americans saying, hey, look at something bad that 101 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,250 somebody has done. That happened to Barack Obama when he was accusing Syria of 102 00:07:07,250 --> 00:07:11,410 gassing its own people. This is a president whose own credibility is much more 103 00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:14,940 questioned than either of those presidents, and I think that's a challenge for him. 104 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:18,230 ASHLEY PARKER: And this is also a president, when you talk about needing to - if they 105 00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:21,270 were going to take actions, ideally he would be able to bring allies and the rest of the 106 00:07:21,270 --> 00:07:25,130 globe onboard. And these are people who, for the reasons Peter stated but also because 107 00:07:25,130 --> 00:07:31,090 of the way the president has behaved - which is that he pulls out of treaties; he alienates, 108 00:07:31,090 --> 00:07:37,220 you know, our neighbors to the north and to the south; he has threatened to destroy NATO. 109 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:40,290 And you know, I've been on a lot of trips, actually, with the vice president, who is 110 00:07:40,290 --> 00:07:43,270 always sort of coming in behind him and saying that thing the president said, don't 111 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:45,760 worry, it's not quite as bad as you think. 112 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,270 So he's now in a position where he has to convince allies who he's alienated in a lot of 113 00:07:49,270 --> 00:07:54,070 ways to come onboard and do something that they may sort of agree with in theory, but not 114 00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:58,740 in policy and tactics and in practice, and it's a(n) uphill battle. 115 00:07:58,740 --> 00:08:01,100 ROBERT COSTA: We're going to be keeping an eye on - you wanted - 116 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:04,280 EAMON JAVERS: I was just going to say one last thought is the hawks are a little bit in 117 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,210 retreat in this administration after the Venezuela episode, you know, where the United 118 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:10,000 States was backing a challenge to the incumbent government in Venezuela. 119 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,940 It seemed like we were sort of on the verge of something there, and then on the verge of 120 00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:16,650 potentially changing the governments; that didn't work out. 121 00:08:16,650 --> 00:08:19,600 I think the hawks took some of the blame for that internally inside the White House, and 122 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,950 so that means that they're a little bit on the back foot right now. 123 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:25,820 ROBERT COSTA: And so much you wonder is this hard line from the president and his 124 00:08:25,820 --> 00:08:29,600 advisors right now about pushing Iran to come to the negotiating table since the 125 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,320 administration walked out of the Iran nuclear deal. We'll be keeping an eye on it. 126 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,270 But let's turn to the firestorm President Trump ignited this week when he told ABC News 127 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:42,010 that he did not see anything wrong with receiving information on political rivals from a 128 00:08:42,010 --> 00:08:46,630 foreign actor. On Friday he then told Fox News that "of course" - his words - he would 129 00:08:46,630 --> 00:08:51,850 alert the FBI after reviewing the material. The president's remarks outraged Democrats in 130 00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:57,040 Congress, and some said as they have been saying it's time to begin the impeachment process. 131 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,900 REPRESENTATIVE ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): (From video.) It seems as though we're 132 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:03,300 kind of sitting on our hands. So if now isn't the time, then I think 133 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:06,370 a lot of folks would like to know, when is the time? 134 00:09:06,370 --> 00:09:09,010 ROBERT COSTA: Speaker Pelosi, facing a lot of that pressure. 135 00:09:09,010 --> 00:09:11,810 We've been talking about it for weeks, about the impeachment question. 136 00:09:11,810 --> 00:09:15,750 But the president's comments about foreign intelligence, what message does that send to 137 00:09:15,750 --> 00:09:19,550 the intelligence community? People like FBI Director Chris Wray? 138 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:23,020 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: It says that the president is going to openly criticize you, and the 139 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:28,060 president's going to do that really with his own political success in the back of his mind. 140 00:09:28,060 --> 00:09:32,030 So I think when we think about all that this president has said, all the scandals, all 141 00:09:32,030 --> 00:09:36,790 the controversies, something like this will stand out, I think, in time and in history. 142 00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:40,930 Because what we had was the president essentially saying in 2020 I'm open again 143 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:45,130 to talking to foreign countries about dirt on my political opponents. 144 00:09:45,130 --> 00:09:51,750 And I think Nancy Pelosi is in a space where AOC and other freshmen on Capitol Hill, they 145 00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:57,460 want fast movement. They want some reaction. Nancy Pelosi, though, this week was very cautious. 146 00:09:57,460 --> 00:10:01,080 And she said, look, I'm not going to be pushed into any one thing being the thing that's 147 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,300 going to push me into trying to get impeachment proceedings. And I think what she 148 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:09,230 wants at the end of this, whenever she - if she ever does end up going for impeachment 149 00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:12,620 proceedings, is to say: Look, I held out as long as I possibly could. 150 00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:15,710 This is now about patriotism. This is now about the country. 151 00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:20,380 And I think when we see her weathering all these scandals and not going knee-jerk 152 00:10:20,380 --> 00:10:24,000 reaction into impeachment talk, that might give her more credibility. 153 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,880 EAMON JAVERS: Look, I mean, one of the things you have to think about here is how 154 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,000 vulnerable is this president, right? I mean, he views the idea of getting intelligence 155 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,380 from a foreign power for his campaign as a potential strength for his campaign. 156 00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:37,930 But the same thing could happen on the other side, right? 157 00:10:37,930 --> 00:10:41,240 The Chinese could go out and get his tax returns from an American computer, steal those, 158 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,590 put them onto WikiLeaks, or the equivalent thereof, and put that out there. 159 00:10:44,590 --> 00:10:48,680 Or, you know, the next Stormy Daniels set of documents, whatever the president's 160 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:51,560 vulnerabilities might be. Those are hackable. 161 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:55,100 So if the president is sending a signal here to foreign intelligence services, look, you 162 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:58,900 know, it's OK for Americans to take a look at whatever you guys produce, you're going 163 00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:02,770 to have a lot of hostile foreign intelligence services playing in the 2020 elections. 164 00:11:02,770 --> 00:11:05,550 ROBERT COSTA: It is illegal, though. I mean, you look at what FEC Chair Ellen Weintraub 165 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:10,330 said this week, she said - she had to issue a tweet saying: I would not have 166 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:13,660 thought I needed to say this. She said, it is illegal to accept a campaign contribution 167 00:11:13,660 --> 00:11:16,880 or information from a foreign national. You have to report it to the FBI. 168 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,530 PETER BAKER: Yeah, there's - I mean, there's a legal debate here as to whether, you 169 00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:23,720 know, derogatory information about Hillary Clinton would constitute a thing of value 170 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,900 under the law, right? We haven't tested that in a court, I think, before. 171 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:29,700 You could make the argument it is. But - 172 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:31,630 EAMON JAVERS: Mueller shied away from saying that. 173 00:11:31,630 --> 00:11:35,060 PETER BAKER: But Mueller shied away from that. Nobody accused any - made a legal assertion 174 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:40,020 in that regard. The more interesting thing, in some ways, is how a president who had 175 00:11:40,020 --> 00:11:45,410 basically kind of moved on past the Russia thing, and the conversation now was about 176 00:11:45,410 --> 00:11:49,070 obstruction of justice and this subpoena fight, could be impeached for things that 177 00:11:49,070 --> 00:11:52,400 were actually not about Russia specifically, and now he's put Russia back on the table. 178 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,510 ROBERT COSTA: But why can't he move on? 179 00:11:54,510 --> 00:11:56,940 PETER BAKER: Well - I mean, Ashley probably has a better sense of it. 180 00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:59,130 She wrote a good piece on impeachment this week. 181 00:11:59,130 --> 00:12:02,260 But I think he's just absolutely obsessed about this and he just wants to, you know, 182 00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:07,120 prove he's right, and undercut anybody who's questioning his legitimacy. 183 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,590 ASHLEY PARKER: Well, one reason is - first, I think what he said, that he was open, 184 00:12:10,590 --> 00:12:13,760 again, to foreign intelligence, you have to take him at his word. That's what he said 185 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,610 in a public interview. But something people close to him have said is this also comes 186 00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:21,260 down to what a lot of things with him come down to, which is his legitimacy. 187 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:26,980 And so when he went out there in that interview and said this, part of it was him sort of 188 00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:30,930 trying to say: I did nothing wrong the first time. That whole thing you were attacking 189 00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:34,930 me for, that witch hunt, what I've called it, there was nothing wrong with it. 190 00:12:34,930 --> 00:12:38,350 And therefore, I would do it again. So they sort of stress, it's not so much that he 191 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:42,490 would do it again, he was trying to defend what he had done before. And also, frankly, 192 00:12:42,490 --> 00:12:47,750 defend his son - his namesake eldest son - who did take that meeting. And so he's in this 193 00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:52,220 tough place where it felt almost deeply personal, rather than the info he really wanted. 194 00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:54,730 PETER BAKER: Was on Capitol Hill that same day testifying. ASHLEY PARKER: Yeah, exactly. 195 00:12:54,730 --> 00:12:56,820 PETER BAKER: So it was on the top of his - ASHLEY PARKER: Yeah. 196 00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:59,790 ROBERT COSTA: Let's stay with this legitimacy point, because it's so important to 197 00:12:59,790 --> 00:13:02,860 understand, if you're asking why doesn't Leader McConnell in the Senate move on this 198 00:13:02,860 --> 00:13:06,410 legislation about reporting on the FBI if you get foreign information, is that because, 199 00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:11,930 Ashley, you have Republicans wary of angering this president, knowing he's so sensitive 200 00:13:11,930 --> 00:13:15,430 about the legitimacy of what happened in 2016? They don't want to pursue 201 00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:19,040 these kind of things in the Senate because of that underlying issue. 202 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,290 ASHLEY PARKER: Well, they don't want to - they've shown a deep unwillingness to cross 203 00:13:22,290 --> 00:13:26,580 him on any number of issues. And there's certain case studies where you do, if you look 204 00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:30,420 at Justin Amash, who's now going to get a primary, where they just don't want to go there. 205 00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:34,720 But they are aware of the legitimacy issue, that that is what drove everything. 206 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,430 When they talk about the Mueller probe, they sort of say the whole obstruction bucket 207 00:13:38,430 --> 00:13:42,390 would not have even happened, but for the fact because of what the president felt was a 208 00:13:42,390 --> 00:13:46,670 threat on his legitimacy, he basically - we watched him self-sabotage and self-destruct 209 00:13:46,670 --> 00:13:49,070 in real time for two years. 210 00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:52,010 EAMON JAVERS: Now, imagine if you're the U.S. intelligence community watching all this 211 00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:55,470 this week. Earlier in the week we had the president say, when it was revealed that 212 00:13:55,470 --> 00:14:00,100 Kim Jong-un's half-brother, or family member, had been a source of information for the 213 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,780 CIA. The president said, well, that wouldn't happen under my watch. 214 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:07,430 So you're in effect suggesting to the CIA that they shouldn't gather intelligence on 215 00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:12,270 hostile governments from useful sources. And then they see this. 216 00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:15,770 Their heads must be spinning at Langley trying to figure out how do they gather 217 00:14:15,770 --> 00:14:19,340 intelligence in a world where the president's saying: We are not going to - or, we're 218 00:14:19,340 --> 00:14:23,350 going to put a slowdown on spying on the North Koreans, and we're also sending signals 219 00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:27,820 that says that the United States election in 2020 is open for foreign interference? 220 00:14:27,820 --> 00:14:30,870 ROBERT COSTA: And this issue is not some issue that's way out there in left field. 221 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:34,220 There was a hearing this week on deep fake videos, all the different social 222 00:14:34,220 --> 00:14:37,660 disinformation campaigns that are going to be expected in 2020. 223 00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:40,690 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, one of the most remarkable things - and Ashley's talked about it 224 00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:44,510 - this idea that he's worried about his presidency not being seen as legitimate. 225 00:14:44,510 --> 00:14:48,790 But it's also about his ego, and this idea that he can sell to the American people that 226 00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:53,760 this is just the way that things work. I think enveloped in his conversation was this 227 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,650 idea that, oh, if you look at lawmakers, who wouldn't want this information? 228 00:14:57,650 --> 00:15:01,230 Who would call the FBI? What kind of person calls the FBI? It's almost like saying: 229 00:15:01,230 --> 00:15:05,730 No snitches. And this idea that this is the president of the United States talking sort 230 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:11,900 of like a mobster. And I think that that is part of the president's ego, part of his personality. 231 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:16,070 He thinks that, I think, as a result, he can - he can ride this wave and be politically 232 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:20,640 successful, regardless. You know, when Eamon was talking about this idea that, you know, 233 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,950 people could hack and his tax returns, or get the next Stormy Daniels. But I was thinking 234 00:15:24,950 --> 00:15:28,070 to myself, he's already weathered those things. He's already weathered Stormy Daniels. 235 00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:30,980 He's already weathered people knowing that he was a millionaire at eight years old. 236 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:33,020 So in some ways, in his mind, he might - 237 00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:34,880 EAMON JAVERS: Maybe he's invincible. 238 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,990 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Yeah, I'm invincible. Go ahead and try to hack me. 239 00:15:36,990 --> 00:15:38,900 ROBERT COSTA: Ashley? 240 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,670 ASHLEY PARKER: Yeah. I mean, this gets to a sort of different point, but one thing I 241 00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:44,650 think we're going to see the Democrats struggle with is sort of what I think of as 242 00:15:44,650 --> 00:15:48,170 asymmetrical warfare, which is that the same rules of engagement, for whatever reason, 243 00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:52,500 don't apply to the president. So that could be hacking a different candidate's tax 244 00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:55,670 returns, if they choose not to release them, could be devastating for his Democratic 245 00:15:55,670 --> 00:16:00,710 rival. But for him, there's absolutely no problem. Same thing with lies or mistruths. 246 00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:04,520 He can go up, and he's paid no price generally with his supporters. And you could see him 247 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,300 on a debate stage with someone else who fudges the facts, and they pay a tremendous price. 248 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,510 ROBERT COSTA: Peter, we're talking about the impeachment issue in the House. 249 00:16:11,510 --> 00:16:13,820 It seems like it comes up every week. 250 00:16:13,820 --> 00:16:18,190 The Democrats, Speaker Pelosi say the president has committed offenses that could be 251 00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:20,920 impeachable, but they don't really move forward on impeachment proceedings. 252 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,820 Is that because, regardless of each week's controversy - and this week it's the ABC News 253 00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:29,040 interview - Democrats are seeing polling or hearing from constituents that they'd just 254 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,620 rather not see the Democrats go in that direction? 255 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:34,760 PETER BAKER: I think a mix of things. I think - I mean, we are sort of in an 256 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,550 impeachment inquiry, we're just not calling it that, right? And their strategy is to 257 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:42,800 see if over time they get enough testimony or evidence that somehow changes that 258 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,200 dynamic. You're right, polls show Americans don't want him impeached right now. 259 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:51,390 None of them do. Like 40-45 percent have said that they might be for opening 260 00:16:51,390 --> 00:16:55,940 impeachment inquiry, but a majority doesn't. So do you overcome a democratic election 261 00:16:55,940 --> 00:17:01,800 without a mandate from the public? And it is a political process. The framers rested it 262 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,110 in the House of Representatives for a reason. That's a political body. 263 00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:10,140 And so it's not - it's not surprising that they would have an eye to what's happening 264 00:17:10,140 --> 00:17:12,580 politically if they took this risk. 265 00:17:12,580 --> 00:17:15,490 EAMON JAVERS: Look, what they're struggling with is what happens if you impeach in the 266 00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:18,590 House and then send it to a Republican Senate, right? So they can have an impeachment vote. 267 00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:22,570 They can probably get it done in Pelosi's caucus in the House. But then, you send it 268 00:17:22,570 --> 00:17:27,450 to the Senate for a trial, and it looks like, with the Republican majority, that the 269 00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:31,340 president would be acquitted. So their - at that point, Democrats have kind of run this 270 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:35,270 flag up the flagpole, then back down again. And they feel like that would be a political loser. 271 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:40,110 PETER BAKER: And you've exposed, what, 20-30 Democrats who sit in Trump districts, 272 00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:44,230 right? They may have just won their seats, who are, you know, leaning to the center or 273 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:47,620 to the right, as it is. And you've exposed them on a vote that might cost them. 274 00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:49,380 EAMON JAVERS: Right. 275 00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:52,150 ROBERT COSTA: And I was talking to a House Democrat this week who was prepared to rally 276 00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:55,590 around the impeachment idea because of what was happening in that ABC News interview. 277 00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:59,150 Then they said a torrent of new things happened. You got the president flips his 278 00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:02,980 statement on Fox News in a call-in. You got what's happening with Iran. 279 00:18:02,980 --> 00:18:07,340 That even if Democrats try to seize on something and bring it to public attention, 280 00:18:07,340 --> 00:18:11,880 there's a wave of new pieces of news that make it harder for them to make that case. 281 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,740 Finally, President Trump had nothing but praise for outgoing Press Secretary Sarah 282 00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:19,860 Huckabee Sanders, who announced she would leave the White House at the end of this month. 283 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:23,850 Sanders has been one of Mr. Trump's most loyal defenders during a tumultuous period. 284 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:27,580 The president called her, quote, "a warrior," and urged her to run for governor of her 285 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:37,200 home state of Arkansas. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, press secretary, what's her legacy? Ashley? 286 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:43,150 ASHLEY PARKER: I mean, her key legacy is that she effectively ended the White House 287 00:18:43,150 --> 00:18:48,150 briefing. I think today is the 95th day when we have not had a briefing. Does that mean 288 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:52,350 it won't be reinstated again? I don't know. It seems less likely under a Trump 289 00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:56,450 presidency. But if we're talking about her key legacy, I would argue that's it. 290 00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:59,530 ROBERT COSTA: Did that hurt the press' ability to report? 291 00:18:59,530 --> 00:19:05,030 ASHLEY PARKER: So two things. I believe that the press briefing is important. There 292 00:19:05,030 --> 00:19:09,040 was sort of lots of intellectual chatter about should reporters boycott the briefing. 293 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,970 I always believed that when you have an opportunity to show up and ask someone in a 294 00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:16,070 position of power questions and get them on the record, there is value in doing that. 295 00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:20,260 That said, a lot of what you see in the press briefing is posturing and them being 296 00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:24,170 antagonistic, us. In a lot of I think all of our reporting that we really got done, 297 00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:26,500 the reporting we're proud of, that told something new to our readers, happened 298 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:28,750 behind the scenes and not from an answer we got at the podium. 299 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:30,950 ROBERT COSTA: What about her relationship with the truth? 300 00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:34,980 You think about what she said in May of 2017, that she had all these pieces of 301 00:19:34,980 --> 00:19:39,450 information coming in from former FBI agents, FBI employees, and then she had to correct 302 00:19:39,450 --> 00:19:44,470 that when she was interviewed by Robert Mueller. Her legacy on the truth. 303 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:48,660 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: She had pretty much no credibility by the end of her job. 304 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:54,020 I hate to say that because I think she's a nice woman, but most of the information that 305 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:58,780 she shared with reporters had to be checked and rechecked because we knew that this was 306 00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:03,480 someone who was not going to be always, if not the majority of the time, telling us the truth. 307 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,900 I think on whether or not you're judging her on the president's - the way that he would 308 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:13,890 view her, she was obviously a good spokesperson for him and she definitely set out his agenda. 309 00:20:13,890 --> 00:20:20,950 But as a reporter, I was dismayed by her, frankly, not telling us the truth a lot of times. 310 00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:24,210 PETER BAKER: Yeah, look, Sarah Sanders had the title of press secretary, but she didn't 311 00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:28,020 have the job of press secretary. That job happens to be filled by Donald John Trump, 312 00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:32,620 and that's the way he wants it. And so because of that there was no briefing, right? 313 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:36,840 She was afraid that or she was - you know, she was not supposed to get out in front of 314 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:42,060 the president. That's a mistake in the sense that a press secretary can take arrows for 315 00:20:42,060 --> 00:20:47,790 a president that he or she might not want to take. But you know, on the other hand, this 316 00:20:47,790 --> 00:20:51,660 president allows us, reporters, to ask him questions in a way that his predecessors did 317 00:20:51,660 --> 00:20:55,550 not. We get much more access to him directly than we did under President Obama. 318 00:20:55,550 --> 00:20:58,400 That's absolutely sure, and definitely under President Bush as well. 319 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,750 EAMON JAVERS: That's true, but the access that we get is in these scrums out on the 320 00:21:01,750 --> 00:21:05,210 South Lawn where we are literally shoulder to shoulder and sometimes on - people are 321 00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:08,280 climbing up on top of your back, everyone shouting a question, and - 322 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,740 PETER BAKER: I keep telling you, actually, to stop doing that. (Laughter.) 323 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:12,750 EAMON JAVERS: And some of these people are vicious in that scrum. 324 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:14,460 ASHLEY PARKER: Get that extra boost. (Laughter.) 325 00:21:14,460 --> 00:21:16,920 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: And she can dodge questions that way if there are things - if there 326 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,940 are topics that the president or Sarah Sanders doesn't want to talk about - immigration, 327 00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:23,490 the fact that he was named in the New Zealand shooter's manifesto. 328 00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:27,300 These are all things that the president and Sarah Sanders could just dodge when they 329 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,210 didn't feel like talking about that. 330 00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:31,620 EAMON JAVERS: The president stands there and he hears all the questions coming at him 331 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:34,010 simultaneously, and so he can pick the ones that he wants to answer. 332 00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:36,640 PETER BAKER: And you have to ask the question in a short burst - what about Iran, sir; 333 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,510 what about this. You can't ask a predicate - Mr. President, you said this on this 334 00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:41,940 day, but on this day your Pentagon said this. And he had - 335 00:21:41,940 --> 00:21:45,090 ASHLEY PARKER: It's like word association, you just shout out the name and have him go - 336 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:47,020 EAMON JAVERS: Topic. PETER BAKER: Go, right, right. 337 00:21:47,020 --> 00:21:49,060 ASHLEY PARKER: Which is not the most effective way to do it. One - 338 00:21:49,060 --> 00:21:51,050 PETER BAKER: But he does talk to us. I mean, let's not underestimate the importance of that. 339 00:21:51,050 --> 00:21:53,020 EAMON JAVERS: Yeah, that's true. ASHLEY PARKER: Yes. 340 00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:55,890 PETER BAKER: Obama - President Obama, weeks went by without any opportunity for White 341 00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:58,470 House reporters to ask him questions. Whole controversies came and went, we never asked him 342 00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:01,940 once about it. And I think that, you know, it's not ideal; we do get more than we used to get. 343 00:22:01,940 --> 00:22:04,340 EAMON JAVERS: I was in - I was in Sarah Sanders' office yesterday just after the 344 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:06,990 announcement was made public, and she was talking to a few of us. 345 00:22:06,990 --> 00:22:12,080 And on a human level, she seemed really choked up and really emotional as she was talking 346 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,690 to us about her tenure. She was asked if she felt that - she regretted not holding 347 00:22:16,690 --> 00:22:19,500 more press briefings, and she said no, for exactly that reason. 348 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:21,590 She said the president speaks for himself. 349 00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:24,220 ASHLEY PARKER: And one brief thing that I think people don't know about Sarah Sanders, 350 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:27,010 despite all these other legacies of hers we've discussed, is I think a lot of reporters 351 00:22:27,010 --> 00:22:31,280 would say that behind the scenes often she could actually be professional, polite, 352 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,640 courteous, and frankly, helpful in moments. 353 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,980 So there was that side of her that was not as public-facing and will not be her legacy. 354 00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:42,870 EAMON JAVERS: A lot of the antagonism at the White House is for show, right? 355 00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:45,590 A lot of the stuff that you see from the White House aides that we see on camera is, you 356 00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:48,700 know, bluster and posturing, and very much for show. 357 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,260 And behind the scenes those same people are not that way all the time. 358 00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:54,460 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: She was certainly personable. 359 00:22:54,460 --> 00:22:57,160 ROBERT COSTA: But there's being personable behind the scenes, and then there is the 360 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,560 public face of the administration and how it handles the thorny questions it faces. 361 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,930 EAMON JAVERS: Yeah, absolutely. 362 00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:06,070 And look, the discipline of having the White House press briefing is that the 363 00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:09,720 administration itself has to check its facts because they have to anticipate what 364 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,590 questions are coming, go out into the bureaucracy, and get the answers, be aware of the 365 00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:17,890 information themselves. It forces that daily discipline every day of knowing what you're 366 00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:21,190 going to be criticized for or questioned about and making sure you have your facts straight. 367 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:24,350 PETER BAKER: It's accountability in a democratic system that a representative of the 368 00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:28,050 most powerful person in the planet day in, day out has to take questions, whether they 369 00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:31,320 want to or not, and if they choose not to answer fine but it's there on the record, on 370 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,910 camera for everybody to see. I think that's something that does have value, even 371 00:23:34,910 --> 00:23:37,870 though the press briefings weren't the most informative under any president. 372 00:23:37,870 --> 00:23:39,930 EAMON JAVERS: And it's not coming back in the Trump - 373 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,780 ROBERT COSTA: Her father is Mike Huckabee, the former governor of Arkansas, a populist 374 00:23:42,780 --> 00:23:45,900 conservative. Does she run for governor in 2022? 375 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:47,840 PETER BAKER: Job's not open. (Laughter.) 376 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,710 ROBERT COSTA: Who has the reporting on this? 377 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:52,400 EAMON JAVERS: She's definitely going to run. She was asked yesterday - I was sitting 378 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,080 right there - whether she was going to run. She did not say no. 379 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:56,710 She said that she did not rule anything out in this life. 380 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,520 ROBERT COSTA: She did not say no. 381 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,670 EAMON JAVERS: And then she was asked if she had permutations about it and - 382 00:24:00,670 --> 00:24:03,820 ROBERT COSTA: Sounds like a politician already - did not say no, being coy. We're going 383 00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:07,240 to leave it there. Typical politician. Thanks, everybody. Up next on the Washington 384 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,320 Week Extra we will discuss the race for the Democratic nomination and who is breaking 385 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:40,130 out of the pack. I'm Robert Costa. Have a great weekend.