WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.590 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Fires in the Amazon rainforest to the receding white ice of the Arctic. 00:04.590 --> 00:11.250 align:start Climate change confronts global leaders. This is the Washington Week Extra. 00:11.250 --> 00:18.280 align:start Hello. I'm Robert Costa. Tonight we discuss the increasingly urgent intersection of 00:18.280 --> 00:25.790 align:start politics and the environment. It was a week of promises, acrimony, and environmental upheaval. 00:25.790 --> 00:31.020 align:start G-7 countries pledged 20 million (dollars) to help fight record fires raging in the 00:31.020 --> 00:37.340 align:start world's largest rainforest, the Amazon, but President Bolsonaro of Brazil initially 00:37.340 --> 00:43.160 align:start rejected the offer. Meanwhile, President Trump skipped the G-7's climate meeting. 00:43.160 --> 00:49.790 align:start It was the latest act of defiance by President Trump. In 2017 the president pulled the U.S. 00:49.790 --> 00:55.070 align:start out of the Paris Climate Accord, and has made rolling back environmental regulations a 00:55.070 --> 01:01.320 align:start priority. He opened the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska to oil exploration, and The 01:01.320 --> 01:06.510 align:start Washington Post reported this week the administration will open 17 million acres of 01:06.510 --> 01:11.380 align:start Alaska's Tongass National Forest to logging and mining projects. 01:11.380 --> 01:16.920 align:start And that news comes as Alaska is facing its hottest summer on record with very little 01:16.920 --> 01:22.300 align:start rainfall and over 600 forest fires consuming millions of acres. 01:22.300 --> 01:27.750 align:start Joining me tonight, Vivian Salama, White House reporter for The Wall Street Journal; 01:27.750 --> 01:32.750 align:start from Anchorage, Nathaniel Herz, environment and politics reporter for Alaska Public 01:32.750 --> 01:38.420 align:start Media; and from New York, Henry Fountain, climate reporter for The New York Times. 01:38.420 --> 01:43.440 align:start Thanks so much for being with us today. Vivian, really appreciate having you here; and 01:43.440 --> 01:47.650 align:start Nat; and Henry, it's excellent to have you at the table as well. 01:47.650 --> 01:51.610 align:start Nat, you're up in Anchorage dealing with some real difficult issues. 01:51.610 --> 01:56.310 align:start How are the forest fires up there, and how is it affecting Alaska? 01:56.310 --> 02:02.340 align:start NATHANIEL HERZ: Well, you can see - you don't have to look very far; you can just look 02:02.340 --> 02:07.820 align:start over my shoulder and see the wildfire smoke that's infiltrated the city. 02:07.820 --> 02:13.580 align:start Normally you'd be able to look out and see, you know, pretty spectacular mountains just 02:13.580 --> 02:17.160 align:start outside of town, but right now we're pretty socked in. 02:17.160 --> 02:24.150 align:start You know, the wildfires have burnt a few dozen homes north of the city in the Mat-Su, and 02:24.150 --> 02:28.430 align:start then south of the city we have another wildfire that's really gigantic burning in the 02:28.430 --> 02:33.700 align:start Kenai National Wildlife Refuge that's been burning all summer. Both of those 02:33.700 --> 02:39.370 align:start wildfires have basically snarled traffic on two of the state's major highways. 02:39.370 --> 02:45.580 align:start We've had major impacts on tourism - you know, tourists getting stranded, cruise ships 02:45.580 --> 02:51.320 align:start almost having to make detours to go pick up stranded passengers, and then even things 02:51.320 --> 02:58.520 align:start like groceries and shipments of freight getting blocked at various points. 02:58.520 --> 03:04.880 align:start So it's definitely been a pretty disrupted summer here by the wildfires. 03:04.880 --> 03:10.710 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Beyond the fires, how is Alaska feeling the effect of climate change? 03:10.710 --> 03:16.110 align:start NATHANIEL HERZ: Well, you know, I've traveled sort of from one end of the state to the 03:16.110 --> 03:21.150 align:start other this summer. You know, I started, I was in Kaktovik, which is inside the 03:21.150 --> 03:25.670 align:start Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, earlier this summer, and they've got, you know, 03:25.670 --> 03:29.870 align:start increased polar bears coming into town because there's less sea ice. 03:29.870 --> 03:35.980 align:start Out in the Bering Sea they're seeing unprecedented warming and diminished sea ice, that 03:35.980 --> 03:40.430 align:start people are worried that - there are really huge commercial fisheries in the Bering Sea. 03:40.430 --> 03:44.810 align:start Like, if you go to McDonald's and buy a Filet-O-Fish sandwich, that fish is probably 03:44.810 --> 03:49.460 align:start coming out of the Bering Sea; it's pollack, and they're worried that those fish are 03:49.460 --> 03:52.530 align:start basically starting to swim north to cooler waters. 03:52.530 --> 03:56.210 align:start And then you go to the southern end of the state and they're in a drought. 03:56.210 --> 04:01.530 align:start And you know, I was paddling a river earlier this summer and there's a glacial lake that 04:01.530 --> 04:06.270 align:start used to be blocked by icebergs that now they're able to run motorboats into because that 04:06.270 --> 04:11.340 align:start ice has diminished. So really from one end of the state to the other it's kind of hard 04:11.340 --> 04:16.210 align:start to find a place that isn't seeing pretty dramatic impacts, especially this summer. 04:16.210 --> 04:21.190 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Henry, you've reported on ANWR - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge - and 04:21.190 --> 04:23.460 align:start the Trump administration's exploration there. 04:23.460 --> 04:28.620 align:start What would the environmental impact of more exploration be in that area? 04:28.620 --> 04:33.690 align:start HENRY FOUNTAIN: Well, the initial exploration would be things like seismic studies, 04:33.690 --> 04:40.280 align:start perhaps some exploratory wells, and that would all require infrastructure - roads, drill 04:40.280 --> 04:48.030 align:start pads, room for crews, et cetera, et cetera. So the big fear is even a little bit 04:48.030 --> 04:52.940 align:start of exploration activity could cause long-lasting damage, for instance damaging the 04:52.940 --> 04:58.020 align:start tundra, leaving scars on the tundra that would last for decades. 04:58.020 --> 05:02.420 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And when you think about the Trump administration more broadly, you're 05:02.420 --> 05:06.300 align:start seeing an administration that's not focused on climate change. 05:06.300 --> 05:10.870 align:start Beyond Alaska, how is that illustrated, in your eyes? 05:10.870 --> 05:17.680 align:start HENRY FOUNTAIN: Well, as you mentioned, Mr. Trump pulling the United States out of 05:17.680 --> 05:24.110 align:start the Paris Accord, not showing up to the meeting last week, all those - all those acts 05:24.110 --> 05:27.550 align:start that sort of demonstrate that he's just not interested in the subject. 05:27.550 --> 05:32.150 align:start It's interesting, when the subject of climate change comes up he tends to talk about - 05:32.150 --> 05:38.350 align:start not about actual warming of the Earth, but about the quality of water and pollution - 05:38.350 --> 05:42.220 align:start water pollution and air pollution in the United States, which are really not the same 05:42.220 --> 05:47.470 align:start thing as climate change. So it starts at the top. He is not interested in the subject, 05:47.470 --> 05:52.440 align:start he's called it a hoax, and it's trickled down throughout the administration. 05:52.440 --> 05:58.830 align:start Obviously, we have reported - all of the news organizations report about all the rollback 05:58.830 --> 06:03.480 align:start of policies and regulations, and that's a big part of it as well. 06:03.480 --> 06:07.540 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Vivian, you've reported on the Trump administration's rollbacks of these 06:07.540 --> 06:10.950 align:start regulations. What's driving it inside the White House? 06:10.950 --> 06:15.760 align:start Is it an ideology, is it an affiliation, an affinity for business? 06:15.760 --> 06:18.290 align:start VIVIAN SALAMA: Both, actually. 06:18.290 --> 06:21.520 align:start The Trump administration, one of its first orders of business was to withdraw from the 06:21.520 --> 06:25.210 align:start Paris Climate Accord, President Trump describing it usually as a bad deal. 06:25.210 --> 06:30.460 align:start But also he believed that it was impairing the rights of a lot of businesses, and we just 06:30.460 --> 06:36.640 align:start saw this week where he decided to withdraw from an Obama-era rule that essentially curbed 06:36.640 --> 06:42.100 align:start emission of methane and he said again it was something that was impairing oil and gas 06:42.100 --> 06:44.730 align:start industry from being able to thrive. 06:44.730 --> 06:49.580 align:start And so a lot of it is driven by business, but also there is - there is an ideology behind 06:49.580 --> 06:55.630 align:start it in his mind where he has questioned whether or not global warming is real or a hoax. 06:55.630 --> 07:00.910 align:start He has repeated - but then again he'll come out like this week at the press conference at 07:00.910 --> 07:04.550 align:start the G-7 and say I'm an environmentalist, a lot of people don't know that. 07:04.550 --> 07:08.850 align:start And so his view of what environmentalism is is really sort of different from a lot of 07:08.850 --> 07:13.430 align:start people, but he insists that he's doing this with the environment in mind, essentially, at 07:13.430 --> 07:15.870 align:start the end of the day. 07:15.870 --> 07:19.290 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And Nat, we're looking at Alaska having a heatwave, one of the hottest 07:19.290 --> 07:25.690 align:start summers on record. Is that part of a trend throughout the world, and how is it affecting Alaska? 07:25.690 --> 07:34.010 align:start NATHANIEL HERZ: Yeah, I mean, I think we've seen - we've seen record temperatures like 07:34.010 --> 07:39.670 align:start this - earlier this summer we set a record high temperature for Anchorage; the previous 07:39.670 --> 07:46.290 align:start high ever recorded in Anchorage was 85 degrees and this summer we hit 90 degrees. 07:46.290 --> 07:52.360 align:start You know, this month has been, I think, the driest August on record. So you know, I 07:52.360 --> 07:57.250 align:start think it's really - we want to be careful about sort of saying that any particular 07:57.250 --> 08:03.930 align:start moment in time or sort of short-term period of weather is reflective of climate change. 08:03.930 --> 08:10.120 align:start But certainly the long-term projections are calling for things like we're seeing here in 08:10.120 --> 08:17.180 align:start Alaska this summer. And, you know, I think we've had - we've had efforts by the government 08:17.180 --> 08:21.280 align:start here to - the state government - to, you know, sort of prepare for climate change, set 08:21.280 --> 08:26.060 align:start climate policy. That was under the previous governor's administration. 08:26.060 --> 08:32.050 align:start In the past year, that's actually been reversed by the Republican governor who's come in 08:32.050 --> 08:35.790 align:start and disbanded a state climate commission. 08:35.790 --> 08:40.190 align:start And right now there's actually no state-level climate policy, but there are any number of 08:40.190 --> 08:45.690 align:start local efforts working to adapt to climate impacts and figure out, you know, how are we 08:45.690 --> 08:51.310 align:start going to deal with some of the major effects that we're seeing around the state. 08:51.310 --> 08:56.080 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Henry, when you look at the Amazon and how President Bolsonaro of Brazil 08:56.080 --> 09:01.600 align:start is handling this crisis, what's your big take-away? What matters, as a reporter? 09:01.600 --> 09:07.120 align:start HENRY FOUNTAIN: Well, what matters is what's going to come in the future. 09:07.120 --> 09:11.160 align:start I think, you know, the Amazon's gotten a lot of attention in the last couple of weeks. 09:11.160 --> 09:17.150 align:start A lot of the activity, the clearing of land through fire, has been going on for a long, 09:17.150 --> 09:23.520 align:start long time. And in some ways the number of fires, it's much worse than last year. 09:23.520 --> 09:28.120 align:start It's not necessarily much worse than a couple years ago. But the big concern, and as a 09:28.120 --> 09:33.760 align:start reporter what I am interested in is, what's going to happen in the years ahead? 09:33.760 --> 09:39.130 align:start And obviously Bolsonaro, he's made it clear that he wants to develop the Amazon. 09:39.130 --> 09:47.830 align:start He wants mining companies, farmers to have more or less free hand to do economic activity 09:47.830 --> 09:52.500 align:start there. So that's really - it's not so much what's been going on in the last couple of weeks, 09:52.500 --> 09:57.430 align:start because that's pretty similar to what's been going on for the last 20 or 30 years in some 09:57.430 --> 10:00.390 align:start ways. It's what's going to happen in the future. 10:00.390 --> 10:03.500 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And, Henry, you've written about how rainforests, these tropical 10:03.500 --> 10:08.680 align:start rainforests, have been endangered long before the fires began in the Amazon. 10:08.680 --> 10:14.690 align:start HENRY FOUNTAIN: Yeah. I mean, forests disappear for a lot of reasons. In the Amazon, 10:14.690 --> 10:21.480 align:start as I said, people have been clearing land through fire for centuries, essentially. 10:21.480 --> 10:26.070 align:start They've been doing it around the world, in fact. So it's not that this is a new thing. 10:26.070 --> 10:34.010 align:start The issue is, is it going to get worse? And that's the concern with the new administration in Brazil. 10:34.010 --> 10:37.900 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Nat, I know you need to leave soon, but the Tongass National Forest in 10:37.900 --> 10:42.940 align:start Alaska. What's its future? We're talking so much about the Amazon, but the Tongass 10:42.940 --> 10:46.620 align:start is right there having its own issues. 10:46.620 --> 10:51.720 align:start NATHANIEL HERZ: Yeah. This is, I think, a really interesting story regardless of sort 10:51.720 --> 10:56.270 align:start of what side of it you're on. I mean, the Tongass, you know, just to put it in perspective 10:56.270 --> 11:01.150 align:start I believe it's slightly larger in area than the state of West Virginia. So we're talking 11:01.150 --> 11:06.670 align:start about - it's a huge archipelago of mountains and ocean. It's a spectacular area. 11:06.670 --> 11:12.660 align:start You know, in the past decades it was a really productive area for natural resource 11:12.660 --> 11:17.860 align:start extraction, especially timber. But you know, the Clinton administration in the '90s, 11:17.860 --> 11:21.320 align:start though the Roadless Rule, really clamped down on that. 11:21.320 --> 11:27.650 align:start You know, it's really debatable whether the lack - the sort of decline of the timber 11:27.650 --> 11:32.970 align:start industry in the Tongass more recently is because of regulation or because of market 11:32.970 --> 11:37.850 align:start forces, and the fact that Alaska is distant from some of the markets in Asia. 11:37.850 --> 11:43.910 align:start But in any case, there's still a lot of political pressure by the shrinking logging 11:43.910 --> 11:50.450 align:start industry to promote, you know, more loose timber regulation in the Tongass. 11:50.450 --> 11:55.470 align:start The thing that's happening at the same time is there's a really robust tourism industry 11:55.470 --> 12:02.480 align:start in southeast Alaska in the same area. And you know, you've got an exploding cruise ship 12:02.480 --> 12:08.360 align:start industry and, you know, smaller scale people coming for glacier tours, and fishing, 12:08.360 --> 12:12.780 align:start and things like that. And the owners of those businesses are saying, you know, we 12:12.780 --> 12:17.750 align:start don't want our customers coming in here and seeing clear cuts. 12:17.750 --> 12:24.190 align:start And so you know, there's a - while there's a big political effort to open the Tongass 12:24.190 --> 12:31.700 align:start more to timber, there's also been a really robust pushback on the part of this new and 12:31.700 --> 12:36.030 align:start growing industry of tourism in southeast Alaska, saying: This is our future. 12:36.030 --> 12:41.010 align:start Our future is not cutting down old growth timber, which is a finite resource. 12:41.010 --> 12:46.080 align:start I think, you know, that - the timber industry over the past couple years has definitely 12:46.080 --> 12:49.700 align:start found a more sympathetic ear in this federal administration, and in Alaska's 12:49.700 --> 12:54.520 align:start congressional delegation. But I think that battle is not decided. 12:54.520 --> 12:58.560 align:start And I think it's going to continue to rage and could very likely get reversed under a 12:58.560 --> 13:03.660 align:start Democratic administration, if the election goes a different way in 2020. 13:03.660 --> 13:07.760 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Nathaniel Herz, environment and politics report for Alaska Public Media. 13:07.760 --> 13:13.180 align:start Really appreciate you being here. And before Henry and Vivian go, big picture, step back. 13:13.180 --> 13:18.710 align:start President Trump, 2020, Democrats running for president are talking about climate change. 13:18.710 --> 13:24.650 align:start What's next politically in this country when it comes to climate change? 13:24.650 --> 13:28.090 align:start VIVIAN SALAMA: The president has doubled down and really believes that he is helping 13:28.090 --> 13:32.080 align:start businesses, and that's the priority, and is viewing a lot of these climate policies with 13:32.080 --> 13:36.890 align:start skepticism. And so so long as he's bringing in business obviously he's going to 13:36.890 --> 13:40.750 align:start get that sector - segment of the population on his side. 13:40.750 --> 13:45.140 align:start But in the meantime, it's been a major alienating factor among our - with our allies. 13:45.140 --> 13:49.490 align:start And this is something that he's getting pushback from everywhere that you look. 13:49.490 --> 13:55.260 align:start In Europe, he was the one absent person from the climate session this week at the G-7. 13:55.260 --> 14:00.510 align:start Allies really pressing him about the issue, even with regard to taking Brazil more 14:00.510 --> 14:05.400 align:start seriously and pressing Bolsonaro. President Trump and Bolsonaro have a rapport together 14:05.400 --> 14:09.490 align:start and they really wanted him to take the lead on this issue, as the United States has 14:09.490 --> 14:13.440 align:start traditionally done. And so really down the line it's a question of is the U.S. 14:13.440 --> 14:18.770 align:start losing its position as that global leader in, you know, this effort to control climate 14:18.770 --> 14:23.910 align:start and see if we can - we can regulate policies that are damaging to the environment. 14:23.910 --> 14:27.780 align:start And President Trump has kind of stepped away and shied from that role. 14:27.780 --> 14:32.780 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Henry, final word to you. When you look beyond the U.S., is climate 14:32.780 --> 14:38.630 align:start change policy and politics taking hold in a different way in different countries? 14:38.630 --> 14:42.910 align:start HENRY FOUNTAIN: Well, a lot of other countries are really leading on the issue, whereas 14:42.910 --> 14:47.260 align:start the United States has stepped back from addressing the problem. 14:47.260 --> 14:54.070 align:start And so it's a very powerful political force in a lot of countries, particularly in Europe 14:54.070 --> 14:59.870 align:start where they're seeing a - you know, they've experienced disasters this summer with bad 14:59.870 --> 15:06.920 align:start heatwaves. So it's, I'd say, large - parts of elsewhere in the world maybe not so 15:06.920 --> 15:11.070 align:start much, but certainly in Europe it's a really front and center issue. I think in terms 15:11.070 --> 15:15.990 align:start of the United States, a lot may depend on what happens over the next year or so. 15:15.990 --> 15:20.100 align:start If there's - for instance, this hurricane, Dorian, that's approaching Florida, if that's 15:20.100 --> 15:24.100 align:start a really bad one, if there's a couple of other really bad hurricanes, if there's some bad 15:24.100 --> 15:30.280 align:start flooding, all of which is somewhat linked to climate change, I think you might see the 15:30.280 --> 15:36.760 align:start administration may have to start addressing the issue because of what the population is experiencing. 15:36.760 --> 15:40.020 align:start ROBERT COSTA: I want to thank my guests, Vivian Salama of The Wall Street Journal and 15:40.020 --> 15:43.660 align:start Henry Fountain of The New York Times, and of course Nat Herz. That's it for this 15:43.660 --> 15:47.170 align:start edition of the Washington Week Extra. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts 15:47.170 --> 15:51.040 align:start or watch on the Washington Week website. While you're online, check out the Washington 15:51.040 --> 16:08.460 align:start Week-ly News Quiz. I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us and see you next time.