1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,900 ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week." 2 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:08,533 Russia's invasion of Ukraine is now in its 10th week, and overnight, 3 00:00:08,533 --> 00:00:13,533 missiles hit the capital city of Kyiv as the U.N. secretary general was visiting. Russia claims it 4 00:00:16,033 --> 00:00:19,800 destroyed arms factory, but Ukrainian officials say a residential building was hit. That comes 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,800 as growing fears are really expanding because the war could expand beyond Ukraine's borders. 6 00:00:28,300 --> 00:00:32,700 On Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin warned the West that any outside 7 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:36,900 interference in the conflict could be met with a lightning fast response. 8 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:38,333 (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 9 00:00:38,333 --> 00:00:40,333 VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): 10 00:00:40,333 --> 00:00:44,266 If someone intervenes in events, they should know that our response to counter strikes 11 00:00:44,266 --> 00:00:48,666 will be immediate, quick. We have all the instruments that no one could brag about. 12 00:00:48,666 --> 00:00:50,633 (END VIDEO CLIP) 13 00:00:50,633 --> 00:00:53,133 ALCINDOR: And on Thursday, President Biden requested an additional 14 00:00:53,133 --> 00:00:57,866 $33 billion from Congress to help Ukraine. 15 00:00:57,866 --> 00:00:58,833 (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 16 00:00:58,833 --> 00:00:59,600 BIDEN: The cost of this fight 17 00:01:01,733 --> 00:01:05,700 is not cheap but caving to aggression is going to be more costly if we allow it to happen. As 18 00:01:08,133 --> 00:01:11,466 long as the assault and atrocities continue, we're going to continue to provide military assistance. 19 00:01:12,066 --> 00:01:14,133 (END VIDEO CLIP) 20 00:01:14,133 --> 00:01:16,700 ALCINDOR: Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, Michael Shear, White House 21 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:21,666 correspondent for "The New York Times," and here with me in studio, Nikole Killion, 22 00:01:23,666 --> 00:01:27,400 congressional correspondent for CBS News, and Hans Nichols, political reporter for "Axios". 23 00:01:28,833 --> 00:01:30,733 Thank you so much all for being with me on what is 24 00:01:30,733 --> 00:01:32,933 a busy night in Washington. You are all partying with us at this table. 25 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:38,700 Michael, I want to start with you. Overnight, there was news that broke that Russia 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,266 had sent a missile -- hit a missile to Kyiv, of course, the capital city of Ukraine. 27 00:01:46,833 --> 00:01:49,700 That came as the United Nations secretary general was visiting, as we noted. That also came after 28 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:54,666 the U.N. secretary-general was meeting face to face with Putin just a couple of days before. 29 00:01:56,666 --> 00:01:58,433 I wonder what you make of the significance of this attack happening and the timing of it. 30 00:01:58,433 --> 00:02:01,100 MICHAEL SHEAR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: 31 00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:05,233 Well, look, I think it underscores what has been pretty true for the last several weeks, at least 32 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:12,700 in the United States in Washington, but in capitals across Europe and elsewhere, which 33 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:17,700 is that this war is not ending any time soon. To the extent that Vladimir Putin pulled out of the 34 00:02:24,066 --> 00:02:29,066 areas around Kyiv and is focusing his attention on the south and east of the country of Ukraine, 35 00:02:32,133 --> 00:02:37,133 that was really a reflection of how poorly his forces had done in its attempt to capture 36 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:43,300 the entire country, but if by no means, I think, signifies that this is about to end. 37 00:02:45,266 --> 00:02:48,666 And, you know, I think one of the things Putin is particularly good at is sending reminders 38 00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:55,866 that this is not over, that he's not done. That he -- you know, for all of the poor performance 39 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,633 of his military, that they still have lots of capabilities to inflict pain. You know, perhaps 40 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:09,200 they will be able to seize a good chunk of Ukraine on the east, 41 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,200 but even if they are not able to do that, their weaponry allows them to inflict damage 42 00:03:16,733 --> 00:03:21,133 as far as they want across the country, if its in the north, in Kyiv, in the west, or in the east. 43 00:03:23,666 --> 00:03:26,900 So, you know, I just think it's -- it underscores that reality and, you know, helps to explain why 44 00:03:31,033 --> 00:03:36,033 the allies, the United States and others, are bracing and requesting and finding more and 45 00:03:38,033 --> 00:03:42,300 more resources to supply to Kyiv and to Ukraine because they know it is not about to end soon. 46 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:46,466 ALCINDOR: Certainly. And when you think about it, you're talking about this idea that the war 47 00:03:47,866 --> 00:03:49,966 is certainly not going to be over any time soon. 48 00:03:49,966 --> 00:03:52,866 And in some ways, Hans, I want to come to you because the defense secretary raised 49 00:03:52,866 --> 00:03:56,733 some eyebrows or really raised my eyebrows when he said that the U.S.'s goal here, 50 00:03:56,733 --> 00:04:00,633 what it wants to see is Russia's military capabilities weaken. I 51 00:04:00,633 --> 00:04:04,100 wonder what your reporting reveals of sort of the proxy war that's going on right now. 52 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:06,933 HANS NICHOLS, POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, it's very clear that the administration is being 53 00:04:06,933 --> 00:04:11,933 very deliberative about talking about Russia's battlefield losses and what is actually happening 54 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:17,200 on the ground. There's almost a cadence to what is happening where we have the nightly briefing from 55 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,200 Zelenskyy in Ukraine and every other day, you get a deep Pentagon debrief on just narrating 56 00:04:24,333 --> 00:04:27,800 what's happening in the war and narrating it in a way that does not cast Russia in a great light. 57 00:04:29,766 --> 00:04:33,400 It seems as though this is sort of the one-to punch in terms of the internal bolstering the 58 00:04:35,866 --> 00:04:38,433 people from Zelenskyy and externally what you're getting from the U.S., the warnings to Putin, 59 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,533 the messaging to Putin, but it does seem strong, and it does seem unique. And as Michael is noting, 60 00:04:45,466 --> 00:04:48,066 the Russians still have some cards to play. They have a lot of capabilities, 61 00:04:48,066 --> 00:04:50,800 and as we all know, there are some scary capabilities out there. 62 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,700 ALCINDOR: And there are some who are wondering whether or not this -- if all 63 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:58,633 that is happening at the administration might be moving closer to direct conflict 64 00:04:58,633 --> 00:05:00,933 with Russia. What's your reporting reveal about that? 65 00:05:00,933 --> 00:05:05,333 NICHOLS: There is still a red line there of actual direct conflict, but let's just 66 00:05:05,333 --> 00:05:09,266 look at where it shifted, right? I mean, remember the debate in the Obama administration, 67 00:05:09,266 --> 00:05:12,866 no lethal weapons. Well, that seems like it was decades ago, right? 68 00:05:12,866 --> 00:05:16,866 Five, six years ago, now, we're all onboard with actual lethal weapons. 69 00:05:16,866 --> 00:05:18,800 The president of the United States, a Democratic president, 70 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,200 is going to a defense contractor Lockheed Martin, 71 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,200 to watch Javelins coming off the assembly line, or where they build Javelins, right? That is a 72 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,033 little bit stronger than just plain rhetoric. Think of the images and backdrop of that. 73 00:05:33,033 --> 00:05:37,200 And this is a White House that wants to -- as you just heard the president talk of that, they want 74 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,200 to spend money, they're prepared to spend whatever it takes. In this context, guys, $33 billion is 75 00:05:44,766 --> 00:05:47,833 a lot of money. That -- I mean, you look at four military sales to Israel, I think it's the highest 76 00:05:47,833 --> 00:05:52,833 out there, it's about $3 billion a year. This is 10 times that and maybe even more compressed 77 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,933 timeframe. So, a lot of money and a clear signal of intent they want to be in this for a long haul. 78 00:05:59,966 --> 00:06:03,300 ALCINDOR: Yeah. Nikole, Hans described $33 billion is a lot of money. It is, 79 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,000 of course, a lot of money. What's Congress and lawmakers there -- how 80 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,833 do they see this request from the White House? Is there support there? 81 00:06:11,833 --> 00:06:13,933 NIKOLE KILLION, CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Well, at this point, it seems there 82 00:06:13,933 --> 00:06:18,833 will be bipartisan support from both Democrats and Republicans. You know, I did have a chance 83 00:06:20,833 --> 00:06:23,900 to talk to Congressman Michael McCaul, who sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, 84 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:27,200 a ranking member, and asked him, is this figure eye-popping to you, 85 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,866 because that's what some Senate Republicans have said, and he said, look, you know, we got to go 86 00:06:30,866 --> 00:06:35,866 through this package, but he feels strongly that Ukraine needs all the military might it can get. 87 00:06:37,833 --> 00:06:41,200 And, of course, Democrats, too, want to move forward with this package as soon as possible. 88 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,400 Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says he plans to make it a priority. 89 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,000 NICHOLS: And there's also some economic assistance as well, 90 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,900 right? I think there number for direct military assistance in the $20 billion range, 91 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:55,833 some economic assistance, some food security. So it is not all military, but again, 92 00:06:55,833 --> 00:06:58,700 it is the broader point, and that is that they want to bolster the government 93 00:07:01,166 --> 00:07:03,733 and make sure the Ukrainian people have what they need to survive, endure, and hopefully succeed. 94 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:07,033 ALCINDOR: And, Nikole, you talk about Schumer, Senator Schumer, of course. 95 00:07:08,933 --> 00:07:11,000 There's some talk the Democrats want to tie this to COVID. We're going to get a 96 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,900 whole block on COVID, but just talk a little bit about what the challenges 97 00:07:13,900 --> 00:07:16,066 could be there and how much of a gamble it might be for Democrats. 98 00:07:16,066 --> 00:07:20,633 KILLION: Well, I was going to say, the devil is in the detail, it's not so much this package, 99 00:07:20,633 --> 00:07:25,633 but really how they get it done. We have seen, especially when Democrats try to link packages 100 00:07:27,066 --> 00:07:28,800 in the past, it has not been so successful and -- 101 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,800 ALCINDOR: Just putting it lightly, yes. 102 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,300 KILLION: Mildly. But, you know, this time potentially could be no different. Republicans 103 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,900 are certainly balking at the idea of tying the Ukraine funding to COVID funding, and really the 104 00:07:42,700 --> 00:07:45,600 premise behind this for Democrats is the administration has been clear that they 105 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,600 also want this COVID really funding passed. That this will help for future pandemic. 106 00:07:52,566 --> 00:07:54,533 It didn't succeed before the recess. So, they want to bring it up again. 107 00:07:54,533 --> 00:07:58,633 And just today, Speaker Pelosi said she does believe that they should be 108 00:07:58,633 --> 00:08:03,500 tied together. So, this is something that could potentially bug both packages down. 109 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:06,800 ALCINDOR: And, Michael, the White House has indicating that this 110 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,800 money -- this $33 billion would last five months. I think that's obviously 111 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:17,733 at the end of the fiscal year, but that's also a lot of money. What's your sense Inside 112 00:08:17,733 --> 00:08:22,633 the White House, what is your sense of what is motivating officials to make this ask to Congress? 113 00:08:24,633 --> 00:08:28,733 SHEAR: I think -- I think it's two things, right? On the substantive side, I think they 114 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,866 recognize that the war will be over soon. So, you don't want to be in a position of having 115 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:40,900 to go back to Congress over and over again with a bunch of small asks if you know or think that 116 00:08:44,466 --> 00:08:48,866 it will be a costly endeavor that is going to last a long time. 117 00:08:48,866 --> 00:08:53,833 I also think this is all playing out in a political context. It is an election year. 118 00:08:55,733 --> 00:09:00,300 You know, I think President Biden wants to be seen as solid and determined 119 00:09:03,733 --> 00:09:08,733 on an issue that does have bipartisan support. There is a lot of support across the aisle for 120 00:09:10,666 --> 00:09:14,666 Ukraine and for not letting them falter in the face of the Russian invasion. 121 00:09:16,866 --> 00:09:21,866 And, you know, I sort of second Hans' mentioning of the trip next week to the 122 00:09:24,866 --> 00:09:29,866 plant where they make these Javelin missiles. I mean, it is remarkable that that is a trip 123 00:09:31,833 --> 00:09:34,533 that this president is going to take. He never wanted to make a trip like that. 124 00:09:34,533 --> 00:09:38,633 This is a president who wanted to spend the next several months before the election focused 125 00:09:38,633 --> 00:09:43,633 on the economy, focused on job creation, on the so-called bread-and-butter issues that American 126 00:09:45,666 --> 00:09:49,533 people care about. You know, the fact that he is going and doing this photo op tells you all 127 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:55,233 you need to know about where he thinks he needs to position himself politically at this moment. 128 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,533 ALCINDOR: It's certainly going to be striking when we see President Biden next week in Alabama. 129 00:10:02,533 --> 00:10:07,100 I want to talk you, Hans, because even as the American people say they want to talk about red 130 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:12,100 and butter issues, there is the Russian foreign minister who is saying specifically that the more 131 00:10:14,133 --> 00:10:17,866 that the West they say meddles, of course, the West would say -- helps Ukraine, the more there 132 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,400 is the risk for nuclear war. Did you talk to your sources -- national security officials? 133 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,566 NICHOLS: Yeah. 134 00:10:24,566 --> 00:10:26,600 ALCINDOR: How concerned are they about it? 135 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,666 NICHOLS: It's troubling. And you -- I mean, I wish I had a better barometer for talking to 136 00:10:29,666 --> 00:10:34,666 national security officials for how concerned they are because they toss around phrases 137 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:40,266 that troubled me, if I am kind of honest about it, right? And you talk about the potential for chems, 138 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:47,633 for nukes, for tacticals, and just the ease with which officials are, especially the former side, 139 00:10:49,666 --> 00:10:54,266 they're tossing these terms around makes you think that this is quite serious, right? 140 00:10:56,333 --> 00:10:59,300 I mean, no one -- none of us know what moves Putin is going to make. We are in a difficult 141 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,533 position here, and it is troubling when anyone threatens and that's what -- let's very clear 142 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,400 what's happening. They are threatening to use weapons of mass destruction. 143 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,333 They can hide behind caveats, but they know exactly what their intent is. 144 00:11:15,333 --> 00:11:16,700 And that to me seemed significant. 145 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:18,833 ALCINDOR: That is absolutely significant. 146 00:11:18,833 --> 00:11:22,933 KILLION: I was going to say, even Senator Lindsey Graham, who is always very hawkish, 147 00:11:22,933 --> 00:11:27,933 said in an interview this week that he thinks that a nuclear strike could be a possibility or that 148 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:35,300 the Russians may be contemplating that. We do not know if there is intelligence to necessarily back 149 00:11:37,766 --> 00:11:40,733 that up, but we know there is concern among members of Congress as well, and the implications. 150 00:11:42,633 --> 00:11:45,300 ALCINDOR: And to think about something - - thinking about these concerns, 151 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:50,266 not only now as I listen to Hans sort of scare me about nuclear weapons and what could happen there. 152 00:11:52,733 --> 00:11:55,300 NICHOLS: Yeah, look, I don't -- I mean, I obviously do not have a 153 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:59,066 roadmap to Vladimir Putin's mind. I don't know what their intent. It could be some strategic 154 00:11:59,066 --> 00:12:02,800 bluffing taking place, it could be a whole host of things. There are people much smarter than I 155 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,300 at the Pentagon who have Putin's psychological profile. They have excellent intelligence. 156 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:09,333 I mean, one thing that we sort of learned about this entire process is that 157 00:12:09,333 --> 00:12:12,800 most of the intelligence, at least the predictive on what Putin was going to do 158 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,333 has been accurate. So there should be a fair - - you know, some acknowledgment of that. 159 00:12:17,333 --> 00:12:21,733 Look, I mean, you have conversations with Lindsey Graham, I mean, people are just sort 160 00:12:21,733 --> 00:12:26,733 of talking about it as though this is a real possibility, and then I don't know how quickly 161 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,500 Lindsey Graham pivoted to other issues, but it seems like a moment when you have Democrats and 162 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:36,066 Republicans on Capitol Hill even entertaining this. And I think it tells us where we are. 163 00:12:36,066 --> 00:12:38,800 I mean, I don't know what they're saying in the hall ways. You spend all your time down there, 164 00:12:40,233 --> 00:12:42,733 what you're picking and just kind of sidebar conversations. 165 00:12:42,733 --> 00:12:47,400 KILLION: I think it remains a concern, ands, you know, for all the reasons you explain. You always 166 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,200 have to be prepared for that worst-case scenario. And I think whether it's the Pentagon, whether if 167 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,033 it's the Hill, whether it's the administration, you know, you have to be prepared for the worse. 168 00:12:56,033 --> 00:12:58,666 Hopefully, it does not get to that point, but certainly, 169 00:12:58,666 --> 00:13:03,100 it's clear Russia is not done, that they could escalate things, especially with this 170 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:06,533 symbolic victory day coming up in just another week or two. 171 00:13:06,533 --> 00:13:10,700 ALCINDOR: Yeah. And, of course, now -- go ahead, Michael. 172 00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:15,700 SHEAR: Really quickly, the one thing I would caution so listeners do not get totally panicked 173 00:13:18,233 --> 00:13:23,233 is that the U.S. military, the allies, they have not changed our own nuclear posture, 174 00:13:25,333 --> 00:13:28,900 right? Which would be -- you know, you don't have the sense that any on this side have actually 175 00:13:32,866 --> 00:13:37,866 taken fundamental steps to change the military readiness vis-a-vis nuclear weapons, which 176 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,700 gives you some indication that it is not as imminent as, you know, people might think. 177 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,000 ALCINDOR: Certainly.