1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,130 ROBERT COSTA: Hello. I'm Robert Costa. And this is the Washington Week Extra. 2 00:00:04,130 --> 00:00:09,570 There may be another power struggle underway between the White House and the Pentagon. 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:14,520 Secretary of Defense James Mattis is reportedly appalled by the president's decision to 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,290 ban transgender people from serving in the military. 5 00:00:18,290 --> 00:00:22,770 The unexpected announcement is also getting pushback from some Republican lawmakers. 6 00:00:22,770 --> 00:00:27,310 Arizona Senator John McCain, who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, criticized 7 00:00:27,310 --> 00:00:31,810 the president for announcing the new policy, as he does, on Twitter. 8 00:00:31,810 --> 00:00:37,750 Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, a 20-year military veteran, also spoke out, saying "Americans 9 00:00:37,750 --> 00:00:43,080 who are qualified and can meet the standards to serve in the military should be afforded 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,600 that opportunity." The chairman of the Joint Chiefs has told his officers to stand down 11 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,710 until the secretary of defense receives the president's directive. 12 00:00:52,710 --> 00:00:57,970 Chairman General Joseph Dunford told his staff "...we will continue to treat all of our 13 00:00:57,970 --> 00:01:04,050 personnel with respect." Secretary Mattis had just begun a six-month review of how 14 00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:09,430 transgender people affect military readiness. The question on everybody's mind, 15 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:14,300 Geoff, is why did the president get ahead of Secretary Mattis. 16 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,490 GEOFF BENNETT: There's some reporting out there that this decision was entirely a 17 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:22,210 political one, that the advisors to the president wanted Democrats in Rust Belt states to 18 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:25,140 really have to own this in the next election. 19 00:01:25,140 --> 00:01:29,920 And I think the fact - the process, I think, actually bears out a lot of that reporting. 20 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,620 And I was speaking with a military veterans advocate who says if you go back and look at 21 00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:39,080 that note that Dunford sent to his military chiefs, there's not a single line of support 22 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,870 in that - in that guidance for the president's ban. 23 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:46,190 And I'm told that was intentional, that everything that comes from the Joint Chiefs 24 00:01:46,190 --> 00:01:51,060 office is vetted, and for good reason. And so there are issues there. 25 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:54,630 There are issues also with the process, that the military doesn't ever like to be in a 26 00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:57,270 position of having to scramble, of having to play catch-up. 27 00:01:57,270 --> 00:02:00,760 And from what we know, they were completely caught off-guard as it relates to this 28 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,790 guidance, that came by way of Twitter of all things. 29 00:02:03,790 --> 00:02:07,500 NANCY CORDES: You know, this issue had been percolating because of this Hartzler 30 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:11,700 amendment in the House that had gone down a couple weeks earlier by a very narrow margin, 31 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:16,510 a Republican amendment to prevent transgender troops from getting taxpayer money for 32 00:02:16,510 --> 00:02:22,500 gender reassignment surgery, so this was something that Republicans on the Hill had 33 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:26,970 talked about with the White House. But the most interesting take that I saw this 34 00:02:26,970 --> 00:02:30,180 week - I can't claim credit for it - came from Rick Tyler, a Republican 35 00:02:30,180 --> 00:02:36,500 strategist, who said that President Trump is obsessed with President Obama's legacy. 36 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:42,410 And the Republican Party has been engaged in a six-month process to try to roll back his 37 00:02:42,410 --> 00:02:46,600 signature achievement, Obamacare, and they haven't been able to do it. 38 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,450 And in the absence of that, he argued that perhaps Donald Trump was striking out at 39 00:02:52,450 --> 00:02:58,340 another piece of President Obama's legacy, which was allowing transgender troops in the 40 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:03,990 military, because it really did come out of nowhere. This is not something that anyone 41 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:11,250 was clamoring for. So it's hard to figure out where this - where the instinct for this 42 00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:17,620 came from exactly. And the question now is, you know, what happens to these troops who 43 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:22,540 were told a year ago, you know, you are welcome in this military? 44 00:03:22,540 --> 00:03:25,470 Do you now kick them out? That's the question. 45 00:03:25,470 --> 00:03:29,930 ROBERT COSTA: Alexis, what's your read on what drove President Trump to make this 46 00:03:29,930 --> 00:03:33,700 decision? Was it because of House conservatives saying they needed to have this 47 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:39,830 kind of policy to pass a budget, or was it because the president wanted to reenter 48 00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:42,600 or enter the culture wars? 49 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,720 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, I think there's probably a little bit of all of that in there. 50 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,160 But I do think that one of the things that we've seen with the president is he did react 51 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:55,010 almost more robustly about this idea that the question that the Pentagon was really 52 00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:59,670 wrestling with had to do with the finances, the actual expenditures, as Nancy is 53 00:03:59,670 --> 00:04:05,130 suggesting, to support medical care, and the Pentagon's concern that at the - if they 54 00:04:05,130 --> 00:04:08,760 kept this policy in place they were going to need some safeguards because they didn't 55 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,680 want to become a magnet for recruits or those who might want to sign up in order to have 56 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:20,740 this very expensive medical care provided to them. The president may have overreacted 57 00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:25,380 in some way to that idea that this was something that they needed to do entirely. 58 00:04:25,380 --> 00:04:30,180 But President Trump also does things where he then retreats and says we're going to study 59 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:34,700 this, and I would not be surprised if this ends up in a Pentagon study that goes on for 60 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:38,980 some additional period of time. The president has done that in the past, and we've seen 61 00:04:38,980 --> 00:04:43,360 the Pentagon immediately say there is no change in policy, we're going to study it. 62 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,420 GEOFF BENNETT: But as he sort of does walk back into the culture wars, it strikes me as 63 00:04:47,420 --> 00:04:51,030 a misread of cultural policies, you know, where we are in the moment and where we're 64 00:04:51,030 --> 00:04:56,790 headed, because the core - Trump's core supporters weren't really, you know, won over by 65 00:04:56,790 --> 00:05:01,970 sort of the traditional Christian conservative culture war. They bought into things like 66 00:05:01,970 --> 00:05:06,450 his stances on immigration, his support for the police, manufacturing, jobs, that sort 67 00:05:06,450 --> 00:05:11,150 of thing. So then to sort of use this as the issue to sort of get people behind him, 68 00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:13,540 I think, doesn't necessarily work. 69 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:18,770 ROBERT COSTA: He did in his convention speech speak to the LGBT community and try to, in 70 00:05:18,770 --> 00:05:21,770 a sense then, it seemed, make an overture to them. 71 00:05:21,770 --> 00:05:25,770 NANCY CORDES: Yeah. And, you know, when you've got someone like Orrin Hatch, a 72 00:05:25,770 --> 00:05:32,330 conservative Republican senator from Utah in his 80s, saying this is wrong, we need to 73 00:05:32,330 --> 00:05:38,450 allow everyone in the military, you know, regardless of their gender identity, you 74 00:05:38,450 --> 00:05:42,880 know, it's proof that this issue is - you know, does not come down neatly along the 75 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,560 same lines that it might have 10 or 15 years ago. 76 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,210 I think there could be an even simpler explanation for the origin of all of this, which 77 00:05:51,210 --> 00:05:57,420 is just that this is a president who delights in creating shock and surprise. 78 00:05:57,420 --> 00:06:04,620 And almost on a daily basis, he does something or says something which seems aimed purely 79 00:06:04,620 --> 00:06:09,700 at getting a rise out of everyone, whether it's positive or negative. 80 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:15,890 And it's quite possible that that was just what he felt like shocking us with on Tuesday 81 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:20,780 or Wednesday or whatever it was, and he has now moved on to something else. 82 00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:25,070 ROBERT COSTA: You say the shocks happen day by day. Sometimes it feels hour by hour. 83 00:06:25,070 --> 00:06:27,830 NANCY CORDES: Not the best way to make policy, of course, but - 84 00:06:27,830 --> 00:06:31,180 ROBERT COSTA: Well, we'll have to see how it all plays out. For sure, this will be 85 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:36,350 a challenge on the plate of the new chief of staff, John Kelly, who came in Friday. 86 00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:41,970 Let's stay with Capitol Hill because both houses of Congress voted nearly unanimously to 87 00:06:41,970 --> 00:06:46,560 impose new sanctions on Russia, Iran and North Korea. The Republican-controlled Congress 88 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,070 also voted to severely limit President Trump's ability to lift the sanctions, which he 89 00:06:51,070 --> 00:06:56,430 has opposed. The move triggered Russia to seize two American diplomatic properties and 90 00:06:56,430 --> 00:07:01,440 order the U.S. to cut its diplomatic staff in Russia. The president hasn't signed the 91 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,100 sanctions into law. And, Alexis, what's the holdup over at the White House? 92 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:10,010 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, one of the deliberations is - and I've seen this with previous 93 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:13,720 presidents - when you have the White House in the same party that the - where you're 94 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,160 getting rebuked in legislation, you have to decide, do I really want to see an override 95 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,890 of my veto? Because that is what lawmakers are saying would happen. 96 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:25,870 And in this particular case, after a string of disappointments and you could say 97 00:07:25,870 --> 00:07:30,900 failures, is that really where the president wants to go on this particular issue, right? 98 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:35,930 And it's so sensitive. And it's just another example of what we saw on the Hill, where 99 00:07:35,930 --> 00:07:42,950 Republicans were ready to try to ward off the Trump be Trump inclinations on Russia. 100 00:07:42,950 --> 00:07:48,200 I mean, this was a(n) almost unanimous description of Congress rising up as the 101 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,200 legislative branch and saying, Mr. President, we're going to check you. 102 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,390 GEOFF BENNETT: And giving themselves an unprecedented role in oversight as it relates to 103 00:07:54,390 --> 00:07:57,220 these sanctions. I mean, Republicans on the Hill by and large, and important 104 00:07:57,220 --> 00:08:01,600 Republicans too, wanted to show publicly that they at least care about Russia's 105 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,170 role in the 2016 elections, and making the Kremlin pay for it. 106 00:08:06,170 --> 00:08:10,310 NANCY CORDES: I mean, this was as much a message to the president, as Geoff and Alexis 107 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:15,370 have both pointed out, as it was to Russia. It passed 98 to 2 in the Senate. 108 00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:21,480 I think it was 417 to 3 in the House. When do you ever see that kind of near unanimity? 109 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,630 And so, you know, the - it's almost a moot point whether the president tries - decides to 110 00:08:26,630 --> 00:08:34,730 sign it or veto it, because they have, you know, well more than a veto-proof majority to 111 00:08:34,730 --> 00:08:37,800 override anything that he tries to do. 112 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,520 ROBERT COSTA: Anthony Scaramucci, the new communications director, said in an interview 113 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,660 that the president may decide to avoid putting his signature on this legislation, because 114 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:50,280 he may push for his own, tougher sanctions. Does the White House really - are they 115 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,480 ready over there to pay the political cost of not signing this bill? 116 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,870 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, let me just first address the question, does the 117 00:08:57,870 --> 00:09:02,110 communications director know a lot about legislating? The answer is no. 118 00:09:02,110 --> 00:09:06,660 And so when I heard that, I didn't think he really understood exactly where Congress had 119 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:10,440 already gotten on this legislation and what the president's options were. So putting 120 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,440 that aside, are they ready to go into battle? I think the president is willing to 121 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:21,010 battle on anything. But is he going to get advice from his new chief of staff or 122 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:25,690 anyone else who's involved in this and the White House counsel? He's got a new counsel 123 00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:29,300 coming in, as Ty Cobb is supposed to be the new special counsel coming into the White 124 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:33,280 House. And we haven't seen him start yet. 125 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,200 And I can, you know, tell you that a lot of people are going to listening to see what 126 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,930 kind of advice the president is getting from his outside team and his inside team. 127 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:44,360 GEOFF BENNETT: Coming, of course, with the backdrop of these active Russia 128 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,500 investigations happening in the House and the Senate and the special counsel probe, so 129 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:52,580 clearly there's a lot of dynamics here at play, you know, as the president makes up his 130 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:55,140 mind about what he's going to do about these sanctions. 131 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:58,190 ROBERT COSTA: Let's stay on the topic of Russia, because Congress is continuing its 132 00:09:58,190 --> 00:10:00,910 investigation into meddling in last year's presidential election. 133 00:10:00,910 --> 00:10:05,530 And this week two really high-ranking White House advisors were answering questions on 134 00:10:05,530 --> 00:10:08,950 Capitol Hill about their meetings last June with a Russian attorney. 135 00:10:08,950 --> 00:10:11,730 What did investigators learn? 136 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:14,500 GEOFF BENNETT: Well, we don't know exactly what they talked about. 137 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,440 But we know for sure they wanted to learn a lot more about that now-infamous 2016 meeting 138 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,360 that you mentioned, with a Russian attorney in Trump Tower. 139 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,450 So Paul Manafort, the president's one-time campaign chairman, and Jared Kushner, his 140 00:10:25,450 --> 00:10:30,760 son-in-law and key advisor, met privately with the Senate Intelligence Committee. 141 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,160 And Kushner also met for hours in private with the House Intelligence Committee. 142 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:40,050 And of course, there was also this bit of drama with the Senate Judiciary panel issuing 143 00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:43,630 a subpoena for Manafort to come testify publicly. 144 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:47,190 We learned later that that was really just their way of getting him to agree to come back 145 00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:51,160 to the negotiating table to speak with them privately, because there's this sort of turf 146 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,220 war happening here with these several congressional committees trying to, you know, flex 147 00:10:55,220 --> 00:10:59,100 their muscle and show that they're also relevant in this overall investigation. 148 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:01,160 ROBERT COSTA: And I said there were two White House advisors. 149 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,540 One former campaign advisor, Paul Manafort, one current advisor, Jared Kushner, the 150 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:08,820 senior advisor. Nancy, what was - what was Kushner's impact when he came to 151 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:13,020 Capitol Hill? He said he never colluded. He talked privately with the committee. 152 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:16,470 NANCY CORDES: Right. You know, he - I think that they felt that he was forthcoming. 153 00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:20,570 He obviously sort of laid out all the facts for them. Obviously, they're going to 154 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:25,310 check his facts with the information that they have already gathered. 155 00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:31,200 There's really two things that they're looking at as relates to Kushner and these four 156 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:37,350 Russia meetings that he has now acknowledged having with either Russian officials or 157 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:41,450 Russian - in one case a Russian lawyer, in one case a Russian banker. 158 00:11:41,450 --> 00:11:46,490 One is what they discussed, whether there was anything that crossed the line. 159 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:50,390 Certainly it raises some eyebrows when Kushner says I asked the Russian ambassador if we 160 00:11:50,390 --> 00:11:55,870 could set up a secure - go use the secure line at his embassy so that the Russian 161 00:11:55,870 --> 00:12:01,720 government could give us information before the president had even taken office. 162 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,500 To which the Russians had to say, no, we can't do that. That crosses a line for us. 163 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:09,490 GEOFF BENNETT: That's a bridge too far. 164 00:12:09,490 --> 00:12:12,540 NANCY CORDES: When the Russians are saying no, we can't - we can't do that, then, you 165 00:12:12,540 --> 00:12:15,980 know, that's - you know, that's a sign that perhaps that's not that appropriate. 166 00:12:15,980 --> 00:12:21,260 But beyond that, I think the question that they're trying to answer is, why was it that 167 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:26,980 he and other people in the president's orbit were so solicitous to the Russians in the 168 00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:32,270 first place, above and beyond foreign dignitaries from any other country, from our 169 00:12:32,270 --> 00:12:39,420 allies, especially after the intelligence community had just determined that Russia 170 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:48,850 massively interfered with our election, you know, using, you know, cyber and fake news 171 00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:55,590 and all the rest. Why was it that - you know, that Kushner was willing to talk to 172 00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:58,680 this Russian banker at the ambassador's request? 173 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:02,360 Why wasn't he meeting with - you know, with officials from other countries? 174 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,960 He did, but it certainly seems like Russia got special attention. 175 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,360 GEOFF BENNETT: And Kushner paints a picture of himself as a novice to politics at the 176 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:17,610 time, that the contacts he had with the Russians were just four among the thousands of 177 00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:21,750 contacts that he had with foreigners. The same cannot be true - or the same cannot 178 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:26,630 be said, rather, about Paul Manafort, who has a very long lobbying and consulting 179 00:13:26,630 --> 00:13:30,640 career, has well-known contacts to Russian politicians and businessmen. 180 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,000 He's a central figure in all of this. And it's one of the reasons why congressional 181 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,550 investigators have been clamoring to speak with him. The other reason why they want 182 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:41,570 to speak with him is because we know he took contemporaneous notes from that Trump Tower 183 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:45,730 meeting in 2016. And that will be crucial in understanding how all of this played out. 184 00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:49,650 ROBERT COSTA: And, Alexis, of course, the White House's main concern is not really these 185 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:52,900 congressional committees, but Robert Mueller, the special counsel. 186 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:56,270 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Right. The White House is very - as we can see from the 187 00:13:56,270 --> 00:14:02,210 president's own tweets and his own public statements, he is very animated about this, 188 00:14:02,210 --> 00:14:08,190 and just refuses to put it aside and try to wall it off, or find a nice place to park 189 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:12,690 his anxiety, and it comes out all the time. And the concern is now the president's 190 00:14:12,690 --> 00:14:17,440 heightened interest is that the special counsel is not deterred and is examining 191 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,540 the president's personal financial and his company financial affairs. 192 00:14:21,540 --> 00:14:26,840 And of course, has asked the White House to retain and preserve all information related 193 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:33,220 to the meetings in 2016. And the president is just beside himself about this idea 194 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:38,320 that the special counsel can access his tax records, can access his business records, 195 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,910 and that they may actually want to question him. I wouldn't be surprised. 196 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:44,240 I think they're preparing for that. 197 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,140 NANCY CORDES: You know, I don't think these congressional investigations will ever get 198 00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:50,610 out in front of the special counsel. You know, they are never going to uncover 199 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:53,980 something that the special counsel hasn't already found out about. 200 00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:58,460 But the problem with the congressional investigations for this White House is the optics. 201 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:03,100 When Jared Kushner goes to meet with the special counsel, if he ever does, we won't know 202 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,960 about it. We won't see it. You know, he's not going to have to walk past a phalanx 203 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,220 of reporters and cameras to do it, the way that he has to when he comes to Capitol Hill. 204 00:15:12,220 --> 00:15:17,510 You know, Don Jr. or Paul Manafort, testifying in public before a committee, you know, 205 00:15:17,510 --> 00:15:23,750 has its own PR damage that comes with it and peril. 206 00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:29,590 And the more you say publicly, if it contrasts with what you've said before or with 207 00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:33,200 what's in other documents, it creates more problems. 208 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,480 And because members of Congress like a show and they like to get attention, you know, 209 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,580 every time that there's a new shoe to drop, as John McCain would say, you know, you've 210 00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:45,810 got some member of Congress saying: Let's have a hearing. 211 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:49,040 Let's bring them forward and let's hear what they have to say. 212 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,850 ROBERT COSTA: We'll see who maybe comes up to the Hill next week, and we'll leave it 213 00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:54,470 there. That's it for this edition of the Washington Week Extra. 214 00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:58,270 While you're online, read my conversation with Bloomberg Reporter Josh Green. 215 00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:02,720 His new book, dives into the relationship between President Trump and advisor Steve 216 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,870 Bannon. Plus, be sure to take the Washington Week-ly News Quiz. 217 00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:16,030 I'm Robert Costa. See you next time.