1 00:00:01,433 --> 00:00:03,100 YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR: Bombshell Supreme Court leak. 2 00:00:05,133 --> 00:00:08,133 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This completely ignores the reality of womenús lives. Itús devastating. 3 00:00:08,133 --> 00:00:11,600 ALCINDOR (voice-over): A leaked draft Supreme Court opinion signals 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,900 justices are poised to overturn Roe v. Wade. 5 00:00:17,433 --> 00:00:19,900 Setting off an emotional debate over abortion. 6 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:22,933 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoping more babies will be saved, thatús what Iúm looking for. 7 00:00:22,933 --> 00:00:25,733 ALCINDOR: As some conservatives celebrate the news, 8 00:00:25,733 --> 00:00:28,933 Republican lawmakers focused on the source of the leak. 9 00:00:28,933 --> 00:00:32,233 SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): The Republicans have been working toward this day 10 00:00:34,233 --> 00:00:37,800 for decades, so they could have a majority of the bench who would accomplish something 11 00:00:39,533 --> 00:00:41,933 that the majority of Americans do not want. 12 00:00:41,933 --> 00:00:46,900 ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, outraged Democrats look for ways to protect abortion rights 13 00:00:48,133 --> 00:00:50,233 and rally voters ahead of the midterms, next. 14 00:00:50,733 --> 00:00:55,400 (BREAK) 15 00:01:33,166 --> 00:01:36,633 ANNOUNCER: Once again from Washington, moderator Yamiche Alcindor. 16 00:01:36,633 --> 00:01:41,066 ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week". 17 00:01:41,066 --> 00:01:46,033 This week, a leaked draft Supreme Court decision sent shockwaves across the nation. The bombshell 18 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,433 scoop by "Politico" revealed five Supreme Court justices support overturning Roe v. Wade. 19 00:01:54,466 --> 00:01:58,333 Since 1973, the landmark case has federally protected a womanús right to an abortion. 20 00:02:00,466 --> 00:02:03,933 In the document, Justice Samuel Alito wrote: Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. It is time 21 00:02:06,066 --> 00:02:10,200 to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the peopleús elected representatives. 22 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,800 Chief Justice John Roberts confirmed the authenticity of the text, but said 23 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,500 it is not final. He also announced an investigation into the leak. 24 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:24,000 If Roe is overturned, about half of the states in our country would likely ban 25 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,466 abortion or heavily restrict it. Opponents of abortion rights applauded the news. 26 00:02:30,466 --> 00:02:32,533 WESTON SCHINN, ANTI-ABORTION RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Ultimately, you are murdering a child when 27 00:02:32,533 --> 00:02:37,533 you make that choice to abort. And we donút believe that murdering a human is a choice. 28 00:02:39,466 --> 00:02:42,233 ALCINDOR: President Biden had this to say about the draft 29 00:02:42,233 --> 00:02:44,466 decision and the conservatives who support it. 30 00:02:47,066 --> 00:02:48,466 JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What are the next things that are going to be attacked? 31 00:02:49,966 --> 00:02:53,233 Because this MAGA crowd is the most extreme political 32 00:02:53,233 --> 00:02:55,600 organization that existed in American history. 33 00:02:58,166 --> 00:03:01,033 ALCINDOR: Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, Julia Ainsley, a justice correspondent for 34 00:03:01,033 --> 00:03:06,033 NBC News; Josh Gerstein, senior legal affairs reporter for "Politico". He is 35 00:03:07,866 --> 00:03:10,866 one of the reporters who broke the SCOTUS story and upended the week for all of us, 36 00:03:10,866 --> 00:03:15,733 of course. And joining me here in studio, Jonathan Martin, national political correspondent for the 37 00:03:15,733 --> 00:03:20,133 New York Times and co-author of the new book "This Will Not Pass: Trump, 38 00:03:20,133 --> 00:03:23,900 Biden and the Battle for Americaús Future." I should tell you that book has also been 39 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:27,833 moving us around this week in Washington. And Abby Phillip, of course, a good friend, 40 00:03:27,833 --> 00:03:32,133 anchor of "Inside Politics Sunday" and senior political correspondent for CNN. 41 00:03:32,133 --> 00:03:35,900 Thank you all of you for joining. This, of course, has been a busy, busy week. 42 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:40,000 And, Josh, we have you to thank for that. So, Iúm going to start with you. Talk a bit about 43 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,000 what the significance of this decision would mean to women across this country and to our nation. 44 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:49,833 JOSH GERSTEIN, SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER, POLITICO: Well, it would basically end a federal 45 00:03:49,833 --> 00:03:54,833 constitutional right that has been recognized for almost half a century. Since Roe versus Wade 46 00:03:56,233 --> 00:04:00,333 became law of the land in 1973, there has been a guarantee 47 00:04:00,333 --> 00:04:04,866 that someone seeking an abortion had the right to do so. There could be certain 48 00:04:04,866 --> 00:04:09,500 limits on that. Over the years, the limits on that have gotten stricter, 49 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:13,600 but there was still a federal constitutional right in every state in this country. 50 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,600 And if Justice Alitoús draft opinion that we reported and made public on Monday becomes the 51 00:04:21,033 --> 00:04:26,033 Supreme Courtús final word on this issue, youúd have really a situation of abortion haves and 52 00:04:28,033 --> 00:04:31,800 have-nots across the country, where you would have many states where abortion was relatively 53 00:04:33,666 --> 00:04:37,800 available and probably about 26 states where abortion is banned or very, 54 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,300 very sharply restricted. You would then have women trying to get medication abortions in 55 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:49,200 those states or possibly travel through what might develop as a kind of Underground Railroad 56 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,900 to get them out of those states and into other states where they could get legal abortions. 57 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:58,066 It would be a pretty dramatic change in the availability of abortion across the country. 58 00:04:58,066 --> 00:05:02,233 ALCINDOR: It would be a dramatic and really generational change. I want to 59 00:05:02,233 --> 00:05:07,233 also ask about other reporting, that Chief Justice John Roberts said there will be an investigation. 60 00:05:09,666 --> 00:05:12,633 You told our reporters it is easier to say there is an investigation than to carry one out. 61 00:05:12,633 --> 00:05:17,633 Talk about how vigorous you think the court will look into this. How 62 00:05:19,533 --> 00:05:23,466 worried are you about being targeted? This is your reporting they will be looking into. 63 00:05:25,433 --> 00:05:28,533 GERSTEIN: Well, Yamiche, the reason I say it is difficult is leak investigations are always 64 00:05:30,433 --> 00:05:34,000 difficult in any type of situation. They are the kind of things that most people in law 65 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,000 enforcement donút like to carry out. Itús a lot of work and often times they end unsuccessfully. 66 00:05:40,866 --> 00:05:43,900 The Supreme Court I think is in a particularly awkward position to 67 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:48,866 do this because they donút really have an investigative branch internally. Thereús no 68 00:05:48,866 --> 00:05:53,866 inspector general of the Supreme Court. Itús not clear that there is any legal violation here, 69 00:05:55,833 --> 00:05:59,933 any criminal violation. Itús not clear whether the Justice Department or FBI are interested 70 00:06:01,166 --> 00:06:03,200 in getting involved in this investigation. 71 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,866 And so, the mechanics of how the court will go about carrying this out are entirely unclear. 72 00:06:09,866 --> 00:06:14,600 They do have a relatively small police force, but they basically patrol the grounds and keep 73 00:06:16,533 --> 00:06:18,800 order in the court during arguments. So, we donút really know how it will play out. 74 00:06:20,833 --> 00:06:24,433 As far as "Politico" itself, we are committed to defending the story and the anonymity of 75 00:06:26,466 --> 00:06:30,200 the person familiar with the proceedings here that provided us a copy of this Alito draft 76 00:06:31,666 --> 00:06:33,833 opinion, and weúll just have to see how things play out. 77 00:06:33,833 --> 00:06:35,900 ALCINDOR: And, Julia, you are, of course, 78 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:40,400 a justice correspondent as well. I wonder what youúve heard about this investigation, but also 79 00:06:42,366 --> 00:06:44,866 the standing of Justice Roberts, who is the one, of course, pushing for this investigation. 80 00:06:44,866 --> 00:06:46,233 JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESONDENT: Yeah, 81 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,700 I was standing outside the Supreme Court in the throes of that crowd 82 00:06:52,633 --> 00:06:56,433 Tuesday when we heard from the chief justice, saying indeed what Josh had reported, 83 00:06:58,433 --> 00:07:01,633 what he posted on "Politico" was authentic, although as you say, clarifying it was not final. 84 00:07:03,633 --> 00:07:06,466 And, you know, but I think these calls into account is what is the chief justices power now? 85 00:07:06,466 --> 00:07:11,266 And it shows that itús waning, right? So, not only does, as Josh pointed out, the Supreme 86 00:07:11,266 --> 00:07:16,266 Court not have the ability like other agencies would to investigate and prosecute someone, 87 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:22,400 but also his ability to control the court is definitely waning. 88 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:27,400 With this leak, unprecedented in the history of the court, we have seen leaks of opinions before, 89 00:07:29,366 --> 00:07:34,100 but never leaks of drafts like this, which gets inside the court and really disrupts 90 00:07:36,066 --> 00:07:39,266 their deliberative process. But thatús what the Supreme Court prides itself on. It is why 91 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,000 we have not been able to get cameras in the Supreme Court because they 92 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,300 want to keep this a sacred space where they can continue 93 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:53,300 to have their own internal deliberation and not issue an order until its final. 94 00:07:55,266 --> 00:07:58,500 And as far as Chief Justice Roberts Power, it is beginning to change. You saw it was 95 00:08:00,433 --> 00:08:04,866 Alito who wrote this majority opinion, as he was asked to do by Justice Thomas. 96 00:08:07,333 --> 00:08:11,933 You really see the you really see the influence at all of Justice Roberts in this because the 97 00:08:13,933 --> 00:08:18,433 bench has changed with the loss of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and gain of Amy Coney Barrett, he is 98 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,933 no longer the swing vote in the middle. He is in the left of now what is a majority right court. 99 00:08:25,933 --> 00:08:30,833 ALCINDOR: And, Abby, Julia just talked about the Supreme Court being sort of a sacred place. 100 00:08:33,266 --> 00:08:36,100 But what does this leak decision, especially with John Roberts calling it a breach of trust 101 00:08:38,166 --> 00:08:41,033 of the court, signal about the overall health of the Supreme Court and where things stand? 102 00:08:41,033 --> 00:08:43,100 ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, the Supreme Court, 103 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:47,600 like a lot of this country, is driven by a lot of political divides. I think there is no 104 00:08:49,033 --> 00:08:52,633 going away from that at this point. The court has been 105 00:08:52,633 --> 00:08:57,633 tainted by a political process involving putting the justices on the court in the first place. 106 00:09:00,233 --> 00:09:03,266 And now I think what we are seeing with the leak, though we donút know about where the leak came 107 00:09:03,266 --> 00:09:08,266 from, is that someone within the court, which is known for its secrecy and the way that it 108 00:09:10,766 --> 00:09:13,400 guards its process, is trying to influence that process by leaking. I think that tells us a lot 109 00:09:16,533 --> 00:09:21,533 about how the court sees itself and the role that it plays in American society. No matter which side 110 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,200 it came from, there was an attempt to, as Julia put it, to disrupt the deliberative process. 111 00:09:30,533 --> 00:09:35,200 That disruption was intentional. Iúm not sure whoever did this, 112 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,833 the outcome may be as they expected, because when things come public like this, 113 00:09:41,266 --> 00:09:43,833 the political consequences are a little bit more unpredictable 114 00:09:43,833 --> 00:09:46,400 and I think thatús what weúre going to be living through over the next few months. 115 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,433 ALCINDOR: Certainly. 116 00:09:48,433 --> 00:09:52,200 And, Jonathan, you told our producers it is sort of a myth that the Supreme Court is above 117 00:09:54,666 --> 00:09:58,200 politics. Talk about where this leaves the court given how partisan the issue of abortion is. 118 00:10:00,166 --> 00:10:02,933 JONATHAN MARTIN, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah. I think if you look at the recent history of the 119 00:10:02,933 --> 00:10:07,933 country. This notion has taken hold that these are these apolitical figures who don a black robe 120 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,000 and become totally above the political fray and donút even think about politics. 121 00:10:16,966 --> 00:10:20,133 Obviously, thatús not true. I mean, they - - you look at who appoints them and 122 00:10:21,966 --> 00:10:26,266 their voting records, they tend to fall on fairly partisan lines. Itús also fairly 123 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,033 factually inaccurate that the court has been apolitical. 124 00:10:33,033 --> 00:10:36,966 The history of the court is filled with politicians. We had a former president 125 00:10:36,966 --> 00:10:41,933 who served on the Supreme Court, William Howard Taft. We had figures -- Earl Warren 126 00:10:41,933 --> 00:10:46,233 was the governor of California who became a chief justice of the court. 127 00:10:48,033 --> 00:10:50,733 We have long had a political influence on the court. 128 00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:55,466 The appointees of the court have been shaped by political calculations of the president at 129 00:10:55,466 --> 00:11:00,466 the time. I think it is unsettling to have this gesture that this is not a political institution. 130 00:11:03,033 --> 00:11:07,933 Of course, it is. It is part of the government, so it is political. But I do think, Yamiche, that 131 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:14,400 if the decision does come in June and is basically what we read here, 132 00:11:16,266 --> 00:11:20,266 that is going to offer Democrats something they have lacked this year, which is 133 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,300 a lever to energize the voters who have shown very little interest so far in this midterm, 134 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,933 and the voters that have faded from Joe Biden, too. Joe Biden won the election in 135 00:11:33,866 --> 00:11:37,233 part because younger voters, especially, were appalled by Donald Trump and rallied to him. 136 00:11:39,633 --> 00:11:42,733 But without the Trump comparison, younger voters have not been terribly enamored with Joe 137 00:11:45,333 --> 00:11:47,866 Biden for the last year. This could be a way for Democrats to get younger voters back to the polls, 138 00:11:49,833 --> 00:11:53,466 back more engaged in Democratic politics in a way that has not happened in the last year. 139 00:11:53,466 --> 00:11:55,000 ALCINDOR: And the midterm issues of this 140 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,366 is definitely something where youúre going to jump ending it. 141 00:11:57,366 --> 00:12:00,333 So, I do want to ask Josh, though, because Friday night, 142 00:12:00,333 --> 00:12:03,900 Justice Clarence Thomas said the court, quote, cannot be bullied. 143 00:12:05,466 --> 00:12:09,466 Talk about the politics of that given what this justice is saying. 144 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:14,000 GERSTEIN: Well, you know, Chief Justice Roberts said something similar a day 145 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,000 earlier. He said that -- he called the leak absolutely appalling, but he said it would 146 00:12:20,866 --> 00:12:22,800 not affect their deliberations or their schedule or anything along those lines. 147 00:12:25,266 --> 00:12:28,600 With due respect to the justices, the notion that this wonút affect the process completely possible 148 00:12:30,566 --> 00:12:34,300 to me, even if it does not sway any votes. Justice Alito now has to confront the fact 149 00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:39,100 that any change he has to make to his opinion from here on out, we are going to know. People 150 00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:44,100 can put these documents up side-by-side when the decision comes out, probably at the end of June, 151 00:12:46,166 --> 00:12:49,600 and see what was changed and which justices agreed or did not agree with that portion, 152 00:12:52,166 --> 00:12:54,966 even down to the footnotes people will be examining them. 153 00:12:54,966 --> 00:12:59,933 So, itús sort of an observer effect kind of situation. Simply bringing your eyes 154 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:05,133 onto the process alters the process. Maybe it doesnút change the outcome, 155 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:09,900 but there is no question the deliberations the justices have on this case from here on out 156 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:12,533 simply have to be affected whether they want to admit it or not. 157 00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:15,100 ALCINDOR: And talking about sort of effect of this, 158 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:17,333 we have been talking about the politics of it. But this week, 159 00:13:17,333 --> 00:13:21,733 I was in Mississippi and Louisiana talking to Americans about the draft decision. 160 00:13:21,733 --> 00:13:25,733 Shannon Brewer is the director of the only abortion clinic in Mississippi. It is, 161 00:13:25,733 --> 00:13:28,133 of course, the one at the center of this case. 162 00:13:30,066 --> 00:13:32,100 SHANNON BREWER, DIRECTOR OF JACKSON WOMENúS HEALTH ORGANIZATION: I donút have any hope 163 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:35,800 with anything to our judicial system. I have no hope in Congress right now 164 00:13:38,366 --> 00:13:43,066 because this should never be. It should never have been. We should never have gotten to this point. 165 00:13:45,333 --> 00:13:49,433 ALCINDOR: And in Louisiana, I talked to a 32-year-old Lillian Newton. Sheús had 166 00:13:49,433 --> 00:13:54,433 three abortions and had since become a worker at the clinic that provided her her care. 167 00:13:55,933 --> 00:13:57,733 LILLIAN NEWTON, PATIENT AND CLINIC WORKER: Had I not had 168 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,533 abortion access when I was at the age of 24, 25, debating my life path, I would have been 169 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,000 completely lost. I donút know how I would have made it through an unplanned pregnancy. 170 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,500 ALCINDOR: I also talked to opponents of abortion rights, who told me 171 00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:19,600 they want to provide more resources for women to deal with unwanted pregnancies. 172 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,233 Abby, I want to come to you. Whatús your sense of whoús going to be most impacted 173 00:14:24,233 --> 00:14:26,300 if Roe v. Wade is overturned? 174 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:30,833 PHILLIP: Well, thereús no question that the women who are in a position to 175 00:14:32,766 --> 00:14:35,433 want an abortion in the first place are going to be affected. We have already seen 176 00:14:35,433 --> 00:14:40,433 the effects of that in -- most recently in the state of Texas, where they passed 177 00:14:42,366 --> 00:14:46,100 a restrictive abortion law. It resulted in women leaving Texas and going to other states. 178 00:14:48,066 --> 00:14:52,200 There is a practical impact of it, whether you support abortion rights or whether you donút, 179 00:14:54,133 --> 00:14:57,700 there is no question that women are caught in the middle here. And I think a lot -- there 180 00:14:59,733 --> 00:15:04,733 was kind of a debate happening among some conservatives about whether overturning Roe 181 00:15:06,766 --> 00:15:10,433 would have a significant effect or not. Some argue there are not that many abortions happening 182 00:15:12,933 --> 00:15:17,933 in this country anyway, so rolling back Roe is not going to make a difference. 183 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:23,000 But there is a reason this debate has dominated American politics for 50-plus years. 184 00:15:24,933 --> 00:15:28,600 And itús because there is a sort of -- I mean, thereús an impact to this that 185 00:15:30,866 --> 00:15:35,866 deals with women and people on both sides care incredibly deeply about. 186 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,000 I donút think it is true that the effect of rolling back Roe would be nonexistent. 187 00:15:43,466 --> 00:15:46,100 There are, you know, over a dozen states where they have laws already on the books that would 188 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:51,700 completely outlaw abortion, and then many more that would be able to pass those laws. 189 00:15:53,133 --> 00:15:55,200 So, the effect would be pretty sweeping and pretty significant. 190 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,933 MARTIN: And, Yamiche, if I could -- I think it would add to the red versus blue dynamic 191 00:15:58,933 --> 00:16:02,233 we have been living with in this country for really the last 15 years, 192 00:16:02,233 --> 00:16:07,233 which President Trump accelerated, this patchwork of not just laws, but really culture and values 193 00:16:09,733 --> 00:16:14,466 between red and blue America, and in some cases, even within states themselves. 194 00:16:14,466 --> 00:16:19,466 We have a book of this week, we talk about in the book what this country has become and 195 00:16:21,533 --> 00:16:26,200 how the two parties have pulled further apart. They are talking in opposite directions. I think 196 00:16:28,166 --> 00:16:32,600 this will be a vivid example of a country in which he would have entire regions where 197 00:16:34,633 --> 00:16:39,400 abortion is illegal and people would obviously have to sort of on a plane for abortion access. 198 00:16:41,466 --> 00:16:46,033 That really captures two Americas dynamic that all have been covered for the last ten years. 199 00:16:48,066 --> 00:16:51,133 PHILLIP: To be clear that is not how the country operates right now because most Americans have 200 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:57,400 some access to abortion and most Americans are in the ideological middle on this issue. 201 00:16:59,433 --> 00:17:02,400 ALCINDOR: I want to ask a quick follow-up, Abby, which is the director of the only 202 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,866 abortion clinic in Mississippi who she says overwhelmingly serves women of color, women 203 00:17:08,833 --> 00:17:12,500 low the poverty line, she said she has no faith in Congress, no faith in Washington. 204 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:16,300 I wonder what you make of that given that Jonathan is talking about this red and blue America, 205 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:21,266 and this woman says while politics are not going to help us at all. 206 00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:26,266 PHILLIP: I mean, she is not wrong. In the 49 years Roe has been the law of the land, 207 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,400 neither side has been able to codify a federal law that either restricts abortion or codifies 208 00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:41,300 the tenets of Roe. Why is that even though we have gone through periods of super majorities 209 00:17:43,866 --> 00:17:46,900 in the House and in the Senate and the presidency being held by one party? It is because they have 210 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:52,933 not been able to come to a consensus on this issue, even within the political parties. 211 00:17:52,933 --> 00:17:57,900 So, she is not wrong that the political process has been very broken on this issue 212 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:02,700 and roe has deferred the country dealing with that for 49 years. 213 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:07,433 ALCINDOR: And, Julia, you were outside the Supreme Court. You saw the energy on both sides. 214 00:18:07,433 --> 00:18:11,666 I wonder what you make of sort of the ability to sustain that energy both on 215 00:18:11,666 --> 00:18:15,500 the Republican side or on the Democrat side given what you saw this week. 216 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:20,500 AINSLEY: This is a foreshadowing of what is to come, whether it is in June or when we get 217 00:18:23,033 --> 00:18:26,900 this opinion, when its finally final. What I saw was a deep division. I saw people getting in each 218 00:18:30,933 --> 00:18:35,933 others faces. I stood there as the police, the Capitol police, at the request of the Supreme 219 00:18:38,233 --> 00:18:41,400 Court police put up barriers, which split the two sides. They asked everyone who was for abortion 220 00:18:43,333 --> 00:18:47,066 access on one side and the pro-life, the antiabortion activists, on the other side. 221 00:18:48,433 --> 00:18:49,500 They felt they had to separate this crowd that is 222 00:18:51,433 --> 00:18:55,533 so indicative of what Jonathan is saying, not only on this issue, but the president 223 00:18:57,566 --> 00:19:01,133 is trying to rally voters, saying that even if abortion is not going to get you to the polls, 224 00:19:03,133 --> 00:19:07,700 the way this leaked opinion was drafted shows that this could happen to other issues. 225 00:19:10,466 --> 00:19:15,466 Basically if you have the Supreme Court going back on long-established precedent on things like 226 00:19:18,066 --> 00:19:21,000 gay marriage, for example, although that could be up in the air. It could be left to the states. The 227 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,666 president is hoping that will get people to the polls. But I will say that if you look at how 228 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,333 the draft opinion was structured, they do say, Alito says, that this is a specific 229 00:19:34,333 --> 00:19:39,000 issue and that there is no right other than abortion that they think it is time to roll 230 00:19:40,966 --> 00:19:44,433 back precedent on, that they see this as a specific topic that there is a right to do that. 231 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:51,233 But there is a lot in play here. I think it really could continue to galvanize voters and bring them 232 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:55,666 to the polls. We also have to remember, there are a lot of other issues. There is the economy, 233 00:19:56,833 --> 00:19:59,500 thereús the ongoing war with no end in sight, 234 00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:04,500 thereús inflation, thereús so much that can bring voters to the polls. 235 00:20:07,033 --> 00:20:09,433 And as we heard this week, I think Lindsey Graham comment on the fact there are actually very few 236 00:20:09,433 --> 00:20:13,433 single issue voters out there. But this could certainly that energizes people. And I think 237 00:20:13,433 --> 00:20:18,433 the Biden administration is hoping as a result of this that midterms will not such a referendum 238 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,000 on President Biden, but would really be a matter of, you know, blue versus red 239 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,000 values and what values voters will hold and that will drive them to the polls rather. 240 00:20:31,033 --> 00:20:33,733 ALCINDOR: And, Josh, as Julia is talking about the midterms, this week, we saw former President 241 00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:38,733 Trumpús grip on the GOP was in full display in Ohio and Indiana. Most candidates, he endorsed won 242 00:20:40,866 --> 00:20:44,733 key primary races, chief among them J.D. Vance, of course, was an author and venture capitalist. 243 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,833 What Iúm really interested in is the fact that President Trump, 244 00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:52,666 heús not taking this big victory lap. Heús sort of saying Iúm going to wait and see what happens. 245 00:20:52,666 --> 00:20:56,933 What does that say about how conservatives are approaching this as the midterms are approaching? 246 00:20:59,533 --> 00:21:02,800 GERSTEIN: Well, there is this nervousness all of a sudden on the part of Republicans. We cite, you 247 00:21:05,333 --> 00:21:08,833 know, both of you talking about Trump seeming to be a bit nervous about which races he should take 248 00:21:11,333 --> 00:21:14,100 credit for as we go to the general election. You have to wonder if political advisors are telling 249 00:21:16,366 --> 00:21:19,233 him or telling the candidates that in the general election he might be a liability. We are seeing 250 00:21:21,766 --> 00:21:25,300 this with Republicans in Washington over this potential revocation of the Roe v. Wade precedent. 251 00:21:27,233 --> 00:21:31,900 It was really fascinating that Republican lawmakers only wanted to talk about the 252 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:36,900 leak in "Politico" and whether it was illegal and that it should be investigated, and they didnút 253 00:21:39,433 --> 00:21:42,033 seem to want to talk about this historic victory that the conservative legal movement seems to be 254 00:21:43,666 --> 00:21:45,533 on the verge of, you know, turning over a 50-year-old precedent. 255 00:21:45,533 --> 00:21:47,600 And you have to wonder, 256 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,033 are they concerned that may be the poll numbers donút look back good for them? 257 00:21:50,033 --> 00:21:52,566 ALCINDOR: We have a couple of minutes left, but I want to go to you really quickly, 258 00:21:52,566 --> 00:21:56,666 30 seconds. Your reaction, especially with great reporting in this book? 259 00:21:56,666 --> 00:22:01,633 MARTIN: Well, I wanted to link Roe v. Wade and the results of the Ohio 260 00:22:03,633 --> 00:22:06,233 primary. Thereús a reason, Yamiche, we call the book "This Will Not Pass". 261 00:22:06,233 --> 00:22:10,066 I think there was this expectation among a lot of Americans, certainly on the left or center left, 262 00:22:10,066 --> 00:22:15,066 that, hey, after Trump is gone, everything is going to be okay and thatús yesterdayús news. 263 00:22:16,933 --> 00:22:20,600 And I think this potential opinion from the court and Trump being able to engineer the 264 00:22:22,566 --> 00:22:25,633 Ohio Senate primary shows that this will not pass, that Trumpism and the larger 265 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,633 forces of tribalism and polarization that are shaping our politics today 266 00:22:30,633 --> 00:22:35,200 are ongoing, the story has not ended. And thatús part of the reason we wrote this book, 267 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,000 was to sort of capture the fact that this didnút end on election day when Biden won. 268 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,533 This is not something but the sort of yesterdayús news. It is now and itús 269 00:22:44,533 --> 00:22:46,800 tomorrow. And itús the biggest story of our time. 270 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,800 ALCINDOR: And, Abby, I wanted to turn to another subject. There was history made this week apart 271 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:59,633 from the big scoop of the Supreme Court, and that is the that the White House announced that Karine 272 00:22:59,633 --> 00:23:04,600 Jean-Pierre, sheús going to be the first Black woman and first openly gay woman to be the White 273 00:23:06,633 --> 00:23:09,733 House press secretary. Politics aside, what do you make of this moment and her at the podium. 274 00:23:09,733 --> 00:23:13,600 PHILLIP: Yeah. This is a year of a lot of significant firsts for Black women 275 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,400 in particular, the Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson who will be seated 276 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,333 this year. And this is yet another moment. I mean, the spokesperson for the government of the United 277 00:23:23,333 --> 00:23:28,333 States is a Black gay woman. And itús just another step forward in that element of progress, which is 278 00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:36,900 about just having these major roles in government, in politics, in law, 279 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,733 being more representative of the whole country. 280 00:23:41,733 --> 00:23:46,733 And so, the Biden administration I think, President Biden trying to make those significant 281 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:54,100 moves, a Black vice president, Black woman vice president, Supreme Court justice and now 282 00:23:56,666 --> 00:23:59,800 press secretary, itús significant, meaningful and perhaps a nod to who he knows is a force behind 283 00:24:02,533 --> 00:24:06,466 him sitting in the White House in the first place, which is Black women, 284 00:24:06,466 --> 00:24:11,466 who, you know, as you know, Yamiche, and I know you know, J. Mart, really are the fuel behind 285 00:24:13,833 --> 00:24:17,666 a lot of the Democratic machine, especially in the South but all across the country. 286 00:24:17,666 --> 00:24:19,233 MARTIN: For Joe Biden especially. Thatús for sure. 287 00:24:19,233 --> 00:24:20,200 PHILLIP: And for Joe Biden, thatús true. 288 00:24:21,633 --> 00:24:23,666 ALCINDOR: For Joe Biden and the Democratic Party. 289 00:24:23,666 --> 00:24:25,366 Well, there was a lot of talk about and itús so -- Iúm so grateful that all of 290 00:24:25,366 --> 00:24:27,433 you were here at this table. Weúre going to be condemning to talk about 291 00:24:27,433 --> 00:24:30,866 the politics of abortion and all of the things that are going on in the midterms. 292 00:24:30,866 --> 00:24:32,933 Thank you so much to Julia, Josh, 293 00:24:32,933 --> 00:24:36,000 Jonathan and Abby for joining us and for sharing your reporting. 294 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,733 Weúll continue our conversation on "The Washington Week extra". Jonathan and his 295 00:24:39,733 --> 00:24:44,533 co-author Alex Burns talk about their newly released book "This Will Not Pass: Trump, 296 00:24:44,533 --> 00:24:49,266 Biden and the Battle for Americaús Future." You can find it on our website, Facebook and YouTube. 297 00:24:49,266 --> 00:24:54,266 And on Saturday on "PBS News Weekend", a report from on the ground in Ukraine. 298 00:24:56,233 --> 00:24:58,866 And, finally, this week marks one year since I became the moderator of "Washington Week". 299 00:24:58,866 --> 00:25:03,300 I am so way full to you, our viewers, and to the great journalists who join our program every week. 300 00:25:04,766 --> 00:25:06,633 Hereús to many more Fridays. Good night from Washington.