YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR:
Bombshell Supreme Court leak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:
This completely ignores
the reality of womenús
lives. Itús devastating.
ALCINDOR (voice-over):
A leaked draft Supreme
Court opinion signals
justices are poised to
overturn Roe v. Wade.
Setting off an emotional
debate over abortion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoping
more babies will be saved,
thatús what Iúm looking for.
ALCINDOR: As some conservatives
celebrate the news,
Republican lawmakers focused
on the source of the leak.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA):
The Republicans have been
working toward this day
for decades, so they could
have a majority of the bench
who would accomplish something
that the majority of
Americans do not want.
ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, outraged
Democrats look for ways
to protect abortion rights
and rally voters ahead
of the midterms, next.
(BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Once again
from Washington, moderator
Yamiche Alcindor.
ALCINDOR: Good evening and
welcome to "Washington Week".
This week, a leaked draft
Supreme Court decision
sent shockwaves across
the nation. The bombshell
scoop by "Politico" revealed
five Supreme Court justices
support overturning Roe v. Wade.
Since 1973, the landmark case
has federally protected a
womanús right to an abortion.
In the document, Justice Samuel
Alito wrote: Roe was egregiously
wrong from the start. It is time
to heed the Constitution
and return the issue of
abortion to the peopleús
elected representatives.
Chief Justice John Roberts
confirmed the authenticity
of the text, but said
it is not final. He
also announced an
investigation into the leak.
If Roe is overturned, about
half of the states in our
country would likely ban
abortion or heavily restrict
it. Opponents of abortion
rights applauded the news.
WESTON SCHINN, ANTI-ABORTION
RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Ultimately,
you are murdering a child when
you make that choice to abort.
And we donút believe that
murdering a human is a choice.
ALCINDOR: President Biden had
this to say about the draft
decision and the
conservatives who support it.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES: What
are the next things that
are going to be attacked?
Because this MAGA crowd is
the most extreme political
organization that existed
in American history.
ALCINDOR: Joining me
tonight to discuss this
and more, Julia Ainsley, a
justice correspondent for
NBC News; Josh Gerstein,
senior legal affairs reporter
for "Politico". He is
one of the reporters who
broke the SCOTUS story and
upended the week for all of us,
of course. And joining me
here in studio, Jonathan
Martin, national political
correspondent for the
New York Times and co-author
of the new book "This
Will Not Pass: Trump,
Biden and the Battle for
Americaús Future." I should tell
you that book has also been
moving us around this week in
Washington. And Abby Phillip,
of course, a good friend,
anchor of "Inside Politics
Sunday" and senior political
correspondent for CNN.
Thank you all of you for
joining. This, of course,
has been a busy, busy week.
And, Josh, we have you to thank
for that. So, Iúm going to
start with you. Talk a bit about
what the significance
of this decision would
mean to women across this
country and to our nation.
JOSH GERSTEIN, SENIOR
LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER,
POLITICO: Well, it would
basically end a federal
constitutional right that has
been recognized for almost half
a century. Since Roe versus Wade
became law of the land in 1973,
there has been a guarantee
that someone seeking an
abortion had the right to do
so. There could be certain
limits on that. Over the
years, the limits on that
have gotten stricter,
but there was still a federal
constitutional right in
every state in this country.
And if Justice Alitoús
draft opinion that we
reported and made public
on Monday becomes the
Supreme Courtús final word on
this issue, youúd have really a
situation of abortion haves and
have-nots across the country,
where you would have many states
where abortion was relatively
available and probably
about 26 states where
abortion is banned or very,
very sharply restricted. You
would then have women trying
to get medication abortions in
those states or possibly travel
through what might develop as
a kind of Underground Railroad
to get them out of those states
and into other states where
they could get legal abortions.
It would be a pretty dramatic
change in the availability of
abortion across the country.
ALCINDOR: It would be
a dramatic and really
generational change. I want to
also ask about other
reporting, that Chief Justice
John Roberts said there
will be an investigation.
You told our reporters
it is easier to say
there is an investigation
than to carry one out.
Talk about how vigorous
you think the court
will look into this. How
worried are you about being
targeted? This is your reporting
they will be looking into.
GERSTEIN: Well, Yamiche, the
reason I say it is difficult is
leak investigations are always
difficult in any type of
situation. They are the kind of
things that most people in law
enforcement donút like
to carry out. Itús a lot
of work and often times
they end unsuccessfully.
The Supreme Court I think
is in a particularly
awkward position to
do this because they donút
really have an investigative
branch internally. Thereús no
inspector general of the Supreme
Court. Itús not clear that there
is any legal violation here,
any criminal violation. Itús
not clear whether the Justice
Department or FBI are interested
in getting involved
in this investigation.
And so, the mechanics of how
the court will go about carrying
this out are entirely unclear.
They do have a relatively small
police force, but they basically
patrol the grounds and keep
order in the court during
arguments. So, we donút really
know how it will play out.
As far as "Politico" itself,
we are committed to defending
the story and the anonymity of
the person familiar with the
proceedings here that provided
us a copy of this Alito draft
opinion, and weúll just have
to see how things play out.
ALCINDOR: And, Julia,
you are, of course,
a justice correspondent as well.
I wonder what youúve heard about
this investigation, but also
the standing of Justice Roberts,
who is the one, of course,
pushing for this investigation.
JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS
JUSTICE CORRESONDENT: Yeah,
I was standing outside
the Supreme Court in
the throes of that crowd
Tuesday when we heard from
the chief justice, saying
indeed what Josh had reported,
what he posted on "Politico" was
authentic, although as you say,
clarifying it was not final.
And, you know, but I think these
calls into account is what is
the chief justices power now?
And it shows that itús waning,
right? So, not only does, as
Josh pointed out, the Supreme
Court not have the ability
like other agencies
would to investigate
and prosecute someone,
but also his ability to control
the court is definitely waning.
With this leak, unprecedented
in the history of the
court, we have seen
leaks of opinions before,
but never leaks of drafts
like this, which gets inside
the court and really disrupts
their deliberative process. But
thatús what the Supreme Court
prides itself on. It is why
we have not been able
to get cameras in the
Supreme Court because they
want to keep this a sacred
space where they can continue
to have their own internal
deliberation and not issue
an order until its final.
And as far as Chief Justice
Roberts Power, it is beginning
to change. You saw it was
Alito who wrote this majority
opinion, as he was asked
to do by Justice Thomas.
You really see the you
really see the influence
at all of Justice Roberts
in this because the
bench has changed with the loss
of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and gain
of Amy Coney Barrett, he is
no longer the swing vote in the
middle. He is in the left of now
what is a majority right court.
ALCINDOR: And, Abby, Julia just
talked about the Supreme Court
being sort of a sacred place.
But what does this leak
decision, especially
with John Roberts calling
it a breach of trust
of the court, signal about the
overall health of the Supreme
Court and where things stand?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR
POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah,
I mean, the Supreme Court,
like a lot of this country, is
driven by a lot of political
divides. I think there is no
going away from that at this
point. The court has been
tainted by a political process
involving putting the justices
on the court in the first place.
And now I think what we
are seeing with the leak,
though we donút know
about where the leak came
from, is that someone within
the court, which is known for
its secrecy and the way that it
guards its process, is
trying to influence that
process by leaking. I
think that tells us a lot
about how the court sees
itself and the role that it
plays in American society.
No matter which side
it came from, there was
an attempt to, as Julia
put it, to disrupt the
deliberative process.
That disruption was intentional.
Iúm not sure whoever did this,
the outcome may be as they
expected, because when
things come public like this,
the political consequences are
a little bit more unpredictable
and I think thatús what weúre
going to be living through
over the next few months.
ALCINDOR: Certainly.
And, Jonathan, you told our
producers it is sort of a myth
that the Supreme Court is above
politics. Talk about
where this leaves the
court given how partisan
the issue of abortion is.
JONATHAN MARTIN, THE NEW YORK
TIMES: Yeah. I think if you look
at the recent history of the
country. This notion has
taken hold that these are
these apolitical figures
who don a black robe
and become totally above
the political fray and donút
even think about politics.
Obviously, thatús not true.
I mean, they - - you look
at who appoints them and
their voting records, they
tend to fall on fairly partisan
lines. Itús also fairly
factually inaccurate that the
court has been apolitical.
The history of the court
is filled with politicians.
We had a former president
who served on the Supreme
Court, William Howard Taft.
We had figures -- Earl Warren
was the governor of
California who became a
chief justice of the court.
We have long had a political
influence on the court.
The appointees of the court
have been shaped by political
calculations of the president at
the time. I think it is
unsettling to have this
gesture that this is not
a political institution.
Of course, it is. It is
part of the government,
so it is political. But
I do think, Yamiche, that
if the decision does come
in June and is basically
what we read here,
that is going to offer
Democrats something they have
lacked this year, which is
a lever to energize the voters
who have shown very little
interest so far in this midterm,
and the voters that have
faded from Joe Biden, too.
Joe Biden won the election in
part because younger voters,
especially, were appalled by
Donald Trump and rallied to him.
But without the Trump
comparison, younger
voters have not been
terribly enamored with Joe
Biden for the last year.
This could be a way for
Democrats to get younger
voters back to the polls,
back more engaged in Democratic
politics in a way that has
not happened in the last year.
ALCINDOR: And the
midterm issues of this
is definitely something where
youúre going to jump ending it.
So, I do want to ask Josh,
though, because Friday night,
Justice Clarence Thomas said the
court, quote, cannot be bullied.
Talk about the politics
of that given what
this justice is saying.
GERSTEIN: Well, you know,
Chief Justice Roberts said
something similar a day
earlier. He said that -- he
called the leak absolutely
appalling, but he said it would
not affect their deliberations
or their schedule or
anything along those lines.
With due respect to the
justices, the notion that
this wonút affect the
process completely possible
to me, even if it does not
sway any votes. Justice Alito
now has to confront the fact
that any change he has to make
to his opinion from here on out,
we are going to know. People
can put these documents
up side-by-side when
the decision comes out,
probably at the end of June,
and see what was changed and
which justices agreed or did
not agree with that portion,
even down to the footnotes
people will be examining them.
So, itús sort of an observer
effect kind of situation.
Simply bringing your eyes
onto the process alters
the process. Maybe it
doesnút change the outcome,
but there is no question the
deliberations the justices have
on this case from here on out
simply have to be
affected whether they
want to admit it or not.
ALCINDOR: And talking about
sort of effect of this,
we have been talking about the
politics of it. But this week,
I was in Mississippi and
Louisiana talking to Americans
about the draft decision.
Shannon Brewer is the director
of the only abortion clinic
in Mississippi. It is,
of course, the one at
the center of this case.
SHANNON BREWER, DIRECTOR
OF JACKSON WOMENúS
HEALTH ORGANIZATION:
I donút have any hope
with anything to our
judicial system. I have no
hope in Congress right now
because this should never
be. It should never have
been. We should never
have gotten to this point.
ALCINDOR: And in Louisiana,
I talked to a 32-year-old
Lillian Newton. Sheús had
three abortions and had since
become a worker at the clinic
that provided her her care.
LILLIAN NEWTON, PATIENT AND
CLINIC WORKER: Had I not had
abortion access when I was at
the age of 24, 25, debating my
life path, I would have been
completely lost. I donút
know how I would have made it
through an unplanned pregnancy.
ALCINDOR: I also talked
to opponents of abortion
rights, who told me
they want to provide more
resources for women to deal
with unwanted pregnancies.
Abby, I want to come to you.
Whatús your sense of whoús
going to be most impacted
if Roe v. Wade is overturned?
PHILLIP: Well, thereús no
question that the women
who are in a position to
want an abortion in the
first place are going to be
affected. We have already seen
the effects of that in --
most recently in the state
of Texas, where they passed
a restrictive abortion law.
It resulted in women leaving
Texas and going to other states.
There is a practical impact of
it, whether you support abortion
rights or whether you donút,
there is no question that women
are caught in the middle here.
And I think a lot -- there
was kind of a debate happening
among some conservatives
about whether overturning Roe
would have a significant effect
or not. Some argue there are not
that many abortions happening
in this country anyway,
so rolling back Roe is not
going to make a difference.
But there is a reason this
debate has dominated American
politics for 50-plus years.
And itús because there is a
sort of -- I mean, thereús
an impact to this that
deals with women and
people on both sides care
incredibly deeply about.
I donút think it is true that
the effect of rolling back
Roe would be nonexistent.
There are, you know,
over a dozen states where
they have laws already
on the books that would
completely outlaw abortion,
and then many more that would
be able to pass those laws.
So, the effect would be pretty
sweeping and pretty significant.
MARTIN: And, Yamiche, if I
could -- I think it would add
to the red versus blue dynamic
we have been living
with in this country for
really the last 15 years,
which President Trump
accelerated, this patchwork
of not just laws, but
really culture and values
between red and blue America,
and in some cases, even
within states themselves.
We have a book of this week,
we talk about in the book what
this country has become and
how the two parties have pulled
further apart. They are talking
in opposite directions. I think
this will be a vivid example
of a country in which he would
have entire regions where
abortion is illegal and people
would obviously have to sort of
on a plane for abortion access.
That really captures two
Americas dynamic that
all have been covered
for the last ten years.
PHILLIP: To be clear that is not
how the country operates right
now because most Americans have
some access to abortion
and most Americans
are in the ideological
middle on this issue.
ALCINDOR: I want to ask a
quick follow-up, Abby, which
is the director of the only
abortion clinic in Mississippi
who she says overwhelmingly
serves women of color, women
low the poverty line, she said
she has no faith in Congress,
no faith in Washington.
I wonder what you make of that
given that Jonathan is talking
about this red and blue America,
and this woman says
while politics are not
going to help us at all.
PHILLIP: I mean, she is not
wrong. In the 49 years Roe
has been the law of the land,
neither side has been able to
codify a federal law that either
restricts abortion or codifies
the tenets of Roe. Why is that
even though we have gone through
periods of super majorities
in the House and in the
Senate and the presidency
being held by one party?
It is because they have
not been able to come to a
consensus on this issue, even
within the political parties.
So, she is not wrong that the
political process has been
very broken on this issue
and roe has deferred the country
dealing with that for 49 years.
ALCINDOR: And, Julia, you were
outside the Supreme Court. You
saw the energy on both sides.
I wonder what you make
of sort of the ability to
sustain that energy both on
the Republican side or on
the Democrat side given
what you saw this week.
AINSLEY: This is a foreshadowing
of what is to come, whether
it is in June or when we get
this opinion, when its
finally final. What I saw
was a deep division. I
saw people getting in each
others faces. I stood there as
the police, the Capitol police,
at the request of the Supreme
Court police put up
barriers, which split
the two sides. They asked
everyone who was for abortion
access on one side and the
pro-life, the antiabortion
activists, on the other side.
They felt they had to
separate this crowd that is
so indicative of what Jonathan
is saying, not only on this
issue, but the president
is trying to rally
voters, saying that even
if abortion is not going
to get you to the polls,
the way this leaked opinion
was drafted shows that this
could happen to other issues.
Basically if you have
the Supreme Court going
back on long-established
precedent on things like
gay marriage, for example,
although that could be up
in the air. It could be
left to the states. The
president is hoping that will
get people to the polls. But I
will say that if you look at how
the draft opinion was
structured, they do say, Alito
says, that this is a specific
issue and that there is no
right other than abortion that
they think it is time to roll
back precedent on, that they see
this as a specific topic that
there is a right to do that.
But there is a lot in play
here. I think it really
could continue to galvanize
voters and bring them
to the polls. We also have
to remember, there are
a lot of other issues.
There is the economy,
thereús the ongoing war
with no end in sight,
thereús inflation, thereús
so much that can bring
voters to the polls.
And as we heard this week,
I think Lindsey Graham
comment on the fact there
are actually very few
single issue voters out there.
But this could certainly that
energizes people. And I think
the Biden administration
is hoping as a result of
this that midterms will
not such a referendum
on President Biden, but
would really be a matter of,
you know, blue versus red
values and what values voters
will hold and that will drive
them to the polls rather.
ALCINDOR: And, Josh, as Julia is
talking about the midterms, this
week, we saw former President
Trumpús grip on the GOP
was in full display in
Ohio and Indiana. Most
candidates, he endorsed won
key primary races, chief
among them J.D. Vance,
of course, was an author
and venture capitalist.
What Iúm really interested in is
the fact that President Trump,
heús not taking this big
victory lap. Heús sort of
saying Iúm going to wait
and see what happens.
What does that say about
how conservatives are
approaching this as the
midterms are approaching?
GERSTEIN: Well, there is
this nervousness all of
a sudden on the part of
Republicans. We cite, you
know, both of you talking
about Trump seeming to
be a bit nervous about
which races he should take
credit for as we go to the
general election. You have
to wonder if political
advisors are telling
him or telling the candidates
that in the general
election he might be a
liability. We are seeing
this with Republicans
in Washington over this
potential revocation of
the Roe v. Wade precedent.
It was really fascinating
that Republican lawmakers
only wanted to talk about the
leak in "Politico" and
whether it was illegal
and that it should be
investigated, and they didnút
seem to want to talk about
this historic victory
that the conservative
legal movement seems to be
on the verge of, you
know, turning over a
50-year-old precedent.
And you have to wonder,
are they concerned that may
be the poll numbers donút
look back good for them?
ALCINDOR: We have a couple
of minutes left, but I want
to go to you really quickly,
30 seconds. Your reaction,
especially with great
reporting in this book?
MARTIN: Well, I wanted
to link Roe v. Wade and
the results of the Ohio
primary. Thereús a reason,
Yamiche, we call the book
"This Will Not Pass".
I think there was this
expectation among a lot
of Americans, certainly on
the left or center left,
that, hey, after Trump is gone,
everything is going to be okay
and thatús yesterdayús news.
And I think this potential
opinion from the court and
Trump being able to engineer the
Ohio Senate primary shows
that this will not pass,
that Trumpism and the larger
forces of tribalism and
polarization that are
shaping our politics today
are ongoing, the story has
not ended. And thatús part of
the reason we wrote this book,
was to sort of capture the
fact that this didnút end on
election day when Biden won.
This is not something but
the sort of yesterdayús
news. It is now and itús
tomorrow. And itús the
biggest story of our time.
ALCINDOR: And, Abby, I wanted to
turn to another subject. There
was history made this week apart
from the big scoop of the
Supreme Court, and that is
the that the White House
announced that Karine
Jean-Pierre, sheús going to be
the first Black woman and first
openly gay woman to be the White
House press secretary. Politics
aside, what do you make of this
moment and her at the podium.
PHILLIP: Yeah. This is a
year of a lot of significant
firsts for Black women
in particular, the Supreme
Court Justice Ketanji Brown
Jackson who will be seated
this year. And this is yet
another moment. I mean,
the spokesperson for the
government of the United
States is a Black gay woman.
And itús just another step
forward in that element
of progress, which is
about just having these
major roles in government,
in politics, in law,
being more representative
of the whole country.
And so, the Biden administration
I think, President Biden trying
to make those significant
moves, a Black vice president,
Black woman vice president,
Supreme Court justice and now
press secretary, itús
significant, meaningful
and perhaps a nod to who
he knows is a force behind
him sitting in the White
House in the first place,
which is Black women,
who, you know, as you know,
Yamiche, and I know you know, J.
Mart, really are the fuel behind
a lot of the Democratic
machine, especially in the South
but all across the country.
MARTIN: For Joe Biden
especially. Thatús for sure.
PHILLIP: And for Joe
Biden, thatús true.
ALCINDOR: For Joe Biden
and the Democratic Party.
Well, there was a lot of
talk about and itús so --
Iúm so grateful that all of
you were here at this
table. Weúre going to be
condemning to talk about
the politics of abortion and
all of the things that are
going on in the midterms.
Thank you so much
to Julia, Josh,
Jonathan and Abby for joining us
and for sharing your reporting.
Weúll continue our conversation
on "The Washington Week
extra". Jonathan and his
co-author Alex Burns talk
about their newly released book
"This Will Not Pass: Trump,
Biden and the Battle for
Americaús Future." You can
find it on our website,
Facebook and YouTube.
And on Saturday on "PBS
News Weekend", a report from
on the ground in Ukraine.
And, finally, this week marks
one year since I became the
moderator of "Washington Week".
I am so way full to you,
our viewers, and to the
great journalists who join
our program every week.
Hereús to many more Fridays.
Good night from Washington.