WEBVTT 00:01.433 --> 00:03.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR: Bombshell Supreme Court leak. 00:05.133 --> 00:08.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This completely ignores the reality of womenús lives. Itús devastating. 00:08.133 --> 00:11.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ALCINDOR (voice-over): A leaked draft Supreme Court opinion signals 00:11.600 --> 00:15.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% justices are poised to overturn Roe v. Wade. 00:17.433 --> 00:19.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Setting off an emotional debate over abortion. 00:19.900 --> 00:22.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoping more babies will be saved, thatús what Iúm looking for. 00:22.933 --> 00:25.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: As some conservatives celebrate the news, 00:25.733 --> 00:28.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Republican lawmakers focused on the source of the leak. 00:28.933 --> 00:32.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): The Republicans have been working toward this day 00:34.233 --> 00:37.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% for decades, so they could have a majority of the bench who would accomplish something 00:39.533 --> 00:41.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the majority of Americans do not want. 00:41.933 --> 00:46.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, outraged Democrats look for ways to protect abortion rights 00:48.133 --> 00:50.233 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and rally voters ahead of the midterms, next. 00:50.733 --> 00:55.400 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (BREAK) 01:33.166 --> 01:36.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANNOUNCER: Once again from Washington, moderator Yamiche Alcindor. 01:36.633 --> 01:41.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week". 01:41.066 --> 01:46.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% This week, a leaked draft Supreme Court decision sent shockwaves across the nation. The bombshell 01:48.000 --> 01:52.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% scoop by "Politico" revealed five Supreme Court justices support overturning Roe v. Wade. 01:54.466 --> 01:58.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Since 1973, the landmark case has federally protected a womanús right to an abortion. 02:00.466 --> 02:03.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% In the document, Justice Samuel Alito wrote: Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. It is time 02:06.066 --> 02:10.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the peopleús elected representatives. 02:12.200 --> 02:14.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Chief Justice John Roberts confirmed the authenticity of the text, but said 02:14.800 --> 02:19.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it is not final. He also announced an investigation into the leak. 02:19.500 --> 02:24.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% If Roe is overturned, about half of the states in our country would likely ban 02:24.000 --> 02:28.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% abortion or heavily restrict it. Opponents of abortion rights applauded the news. 02:30.466 --> 02:32.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% WESTON SCHINN, ANTI-ABORTION RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Ultimately, you are murdering a child when 02:32.533 --> 02:37.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% you make that choice to abort. And we donút believe that murdering a human is a choice. 02:39.466 --> 02:42.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: President Biden had this to say about the draft 02:42.233 --> 02:44.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% decision and the conservatives who support it. 02:47.066 --> 02:48.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What are the next things that are going to be attacked? 02:49.966 --> 02:53.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Because this MAGA crowd is the most extreme political 02:53.233 --> 02:55.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% organization that existed in American history. 02:58.166 --> 03:01.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALCINDOR: Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, Julia Ainsley, a justice correspondent for 03:01.033 --> 03:06.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% NBC News; Josh Gerstein, senior legal affairs reporter for "Politico". He is 03:07.866 --> 03:10.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% one of the reporters who broke the SCOTUS story and upended the week for all of us, 03:10.866 --> 03:15.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% of course. And joining me here in studio, Jonathan Martin, national political correspondent for the 03:15.733 --> 03:20.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% New York Times and co-author of the new book "This Will Not Pass: Trump, 03:20.133 --> 03:23.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Biden and the Battle for Americaús Future." I should tell you that book has also been 03:23.900 --> 03:27.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% moving us around this week in Washington. And Abby Phillip, of course, a good friend, 03:27.833 --> 03:32.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% anchor of "Inside Politics Sunday" and senior political correspondent for CNN. 03:32.133 --> 03:35.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Thank you all of you for joining. This, of course, has been a busy, busy week. 03:35.900 --> 03:40.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, Josh, we have you to thank for that. So, Iúm going to start with you. Talk a bit about 03:40.000 --> 03:45.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what the significance of this decision would mean to women across this country and to our nation. 03:47.100 --> 03:49.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% JOSH GERSTEIN, SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER, POLITICO: Well, it would basically end a federal 03:49.833 --> 03:54.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% constitutional right that has been recognized for almost half a century. Since Roe versus Wade 03:56.233 --> 04:00.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% became law of the land in 1973, there has been a guarantee 04:00.333 --> 04:04.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that someone seeking an abortion had the right to do so. There could be certain 04:04.866 --> 04:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% limits on that. Over the years, the limits on that have gotten stricter, 04:09.500 --> 04:13.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but there was still a federal constitutional right in every state in this country. 04:13.600 --> 04:18.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And if Justice Alitoús draft opinion that we reported and made public on Monday becomes the 04:21.033 --> 04:26.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Supreme Courtús final word on this issue, youúd have really a situation of abortion haves and 04:28.033 --> 04:31.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have-nots across the country, where you would have many states where abortion was relatively 04:33.666 --> 04:37.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% available and probably about 26 states where abortion is banned or very, 04:39.800 --> 04:43.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% very sharply restricted. You would then have women trying to get medication abortions in 04:45.300 --> 04:49.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% those states or possibly travel through what might develop as a kind of Underground Railroad 04:49.200 --> 04:53.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to get them out of those states and into other states where they could get legal abortions. 04:53.900 --> 04:58.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It would be a pretty dramatic change in the availability of abortion across the country. 04:58.066 --> 05:02.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: It would be a dramatic and really generational change. I want to 05:02.233 --> 05:07.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% also ask about other reporting, that Chief Justice John Roberts said there will be an investigation. 05:09.666 --> 05:12.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% You told our reporters it is easier to say there is an investigation than to carry one out. 05:12.633 --> 05:17.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Talk about how vigorous you think the court will look into this. How 05:19.533 --> 05:23.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% worried are you about being targeted? This is your reporting they will be looking into. 05:25.433 --> 05:28.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% GERSTEIN: Well, Yamiche, the reason I say it is difficult is leak investigations are always 05:30.433 --> 05:34.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% difficult in any type of situation. They are the kind of things that most people in law 05:34.000 --> 05:39.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% enforcement donút like to carry out. Itús a lot of work and often times they end unsuccessfully. 05:40.866 --> 05:43.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The Supreme Court I think is in a particularly awkward position to 05:43.900 --> 05:48.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% do this because they donút really have an investigative branch internally. Thereús no 05:48.866 --> 05:53.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% inspector general of the Supreme Court. Itús not clear that there is any legal violation here, 05:55.833 --> 05:59.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% any criminal violation. Itús not clear whether the Justice Department or FBI are interested 06:01.166 --> 06:03.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in getting involved in this investigation. 06:03.200 --> 06:07.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, the mechanics of how the court will go about carrying this out are entirely unclear. 06:09.866 --> 06:14.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% They do have a relatively small police force, but they basically patrol the grounds and keep 06:16.533 --> 06:18.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% order in the court during arguments. So, we donút really know how it will play out. 06:20.833 --> 06:24.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% As far as "Politico" itself, we are committed to defending the story and the anonymity of 06:26.466 --> 06:30.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the person familiar with the proceedings here that provided us a copy of this Alito draft 06:31.666 --> 06:33.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% opinion, and weúll just have to see how things play out. 06:33.833 --> 06:35.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALCINDOR: And, Julia, you are, of course, 06:35.900 --> 06:40.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a justice correspondent as well. I wonder what youúve heard about this investigation, but also 06:42.366 --> 06:44.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the standing of Justice Roberts, who is the one, of course, pushing for this investigation. 06:44.866 --> 06:46.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESONDENT: Yeah, 06:47.800 --> 06:50.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% I was standing outside the Supreme Court in the throes of that crowd 06:52.633 --> 06:56.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Tuesday when we heard from the chief justice, saying indeed what Josh had reported, 06:58.433 --> 07:01.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% what he posted on "Politico" was authentic, although as you say, clarifying it was not final. 07:03.633 --> 07:06.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, you know, but I think these calls into account is what is the chief justices power now? 07:06.466 --> 07:11.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And it shows that itús waning, right? So, not only does, as Josh pointed out, the Supreme 07:11.266 --> 07:16.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Court not have the ability like other agencies would to investigate and prosecute someone, 07:17.900 --> 07:22.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but also his ability to control the court is definitely waning. 07:22.400 --> 07:27.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% With this leak, unprecedented in the history of the court, we have seen leaks of opinions before, 07:29.366 --> 07:34.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but never leaks of drafts like this, which gets inside the court and really disrupts 07:36.066 --> 07:39.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% their deliberative process. But thatús what the Supreme Court prides itself on. It is why 07:41.200 --> 07:44.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we have not been able to get cameras in the Supreme Court because they 07:44.000 --> 07:48.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% want to keep this a sacred space where they can continue 07:48.300 --> 07:53.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to have their own internal deliberation and not issue an order until its final. 07:55.266 --> 07:58.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as far as Chief Justice Roberts Power, it is beginning to change. You saw it was 08:00.433 --> 08:04.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Alito who wrote this majority opinion, as he was asked to do by Justice Thomas. 08:07.333 --> 08:11.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% You really see the you really see the influence at all of Justice Roberts in this because the 08:13.933 --> 08:18.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% bench has changed with the loss of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and gain of Amy Coney Barrett, he is 08:20.500 --> 08:23.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% no longer the swing vote in the middle. He is in the left of now what is a majority right court. 08:25.933 --> 08:30.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Abby, Julia just talked about the Supreme Court being sort of a sacred place. 08:33.266 --> 08:36.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But what does this leak decision, especially with John Roberts calling it a breach of trust 08:38.166 --> 08:41.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of the court, signal about the overall health of the Supreme Court and where things stand? 08:41.033 --> 08:43.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, the Supreme Court, 08:43.100 --> 08:47.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% like a lot of this country, is driven by a lot of political divides. I think there is no 08:49.033 --> 08:52.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% going away from that at this point. The court has been 08:52.633 --> 08:57.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% tainted by a political process involving putting the justices on the court in the first place. 09:00.233 --> 09:03.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And now I think what we are seeing with the leak, though we donút know about where the leak came 09:03.266 --> 09:08.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% from, is that someone within the court, which is known for its secrecy and the way that it 09:10.766 --> 09:13.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% guards its process, is trying to influence that process by leaking. I think that tells us a lot 09:16.533 --> 09:21.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% about how the court sees itself and the role that it plays in American society. No matter which side 09:23.600 --> 09:28.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% it came from, there was an attempt to, as Julia put it, to disrupt the deliberative process. 09:30.533 --> 09:35.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That disruption was intentional. Iúm not sure whoever did this, 09:35.200 --> 09:39.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the outcome may be as they expected, because when things come public like this, 09:41.266 --> 09:43.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the political consequences are a little bit more unpredictable 09:43.833 --> 09:46.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and I think thatús what weúre going to be living through over the next few months. 09:46.400 --> 09:48.433 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% ALCINDOR: Certainly. 09:48.433 --> 09:52.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, Jonathan, you told our producers it is sort of a myth that the Supreme Court is above 09:54.666 --> 09:58.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% politics. Talk about where this leaves the court given how partisan the issue of abortion is. 10:00.166 --> 10:02.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JONATHAN MARTIN, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah. I think if you look at the recent history of the 10:02.933 --> 10:07.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% country. This notion has taken hold that these are these apolitical figures who don a black robe 10:10.000 --> 10:15.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and become totally above the political fray and donút even think about politics. 10:16.966 --> 10:20.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Obviously, thatús not true. I mean, they - - you look at who appoints them and 10:21.966 --> 10:26.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% their voting records, they tend to fall on fairly partisan lines. Itús also fairly 10:30.300 --> 10:33.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% factually inaccurate that the court has been apolitical. 10:33.033 --> 10:36.966 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The history of the court is filled with politicians. We had a former president 10:36.966 --> 10:41.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who served on the Supreme Court, William Howard Taft. We had figures -- Earl Warren 10:41.933 --> 10:46.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was the governor of California who became a chief justice of the court. 10:48.033 --> 10:50.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have long had a political influence on the court. 10:50.733 --> 10:55.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The appointees of the court have been shaped by political calculations of the president at 10:55.466 --> 11:00.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the time. I think it is unsettling to have this gesture that this is not a political institution. 11:03.033 --> 11:07.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Of course, it is. It is part of the government, so it is political. But I do think, Yamiche, that 11:10.300 --> 11:14.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% if the decision does come in June and is basically what we read here, 11:16.266 --> 11:20.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that is going to offer Democrats something they have lacked this year, which is 11:22.200 --> 11:25.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a lever to energize the voters who have shown very little interest so far in this midterm, 11:27.200 --> 11:31.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and the voters that have faded from Joe Biden, too. Joe Biden won the election in 11:33.866 --> 11:37.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% part because younger voters, especially, were appalled by Donald Trump and rallied to him. 11:39.633 --> 11:42.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But without the Trump comparison, younger voters have not been terribly enamored with Joe 11:45.333 --> 11:47.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Biden for the last year. This could be a way for Democrats to get younger voters back to the polls, 11:49.833 --> 11:53.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% back more engaged in Democratic politics in a way that has not happened in the last year. 11:53.466 --> 11:55.000 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALCINDOR: And the midterm issues of this 11:55.000 --> 11:57.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is definitely something where youúre going to jump ending it. 11:57.366 --> 12:00.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, I do want to ask Josh, though, because Friday night, 12:00.333 --> 12:03.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Justice Clarence Thomas said the court, quote, cannot be bullied. 12:05.466 --> 12:09.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Talk about the politics of that given what this justice is saying. 12:11.500 --> 12:14.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% GERSTEIN: Well, you know, Chief Justice Roberts said something similar a day 12:14.000 --> 12:19.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% earlier. He said that -- he called the leak absolutely appalling, but he said it would 12:20.866 --> 12:22.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not affect their deliberations or their schedule or anything along those lines. 12:25.266 --> 12:28.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% With due respect to the justices, the notion that this wonút affect the process completely possible 12:30.566 --> 12:34.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to me, even if it does not sway any votes. Justice Alito now has to confront the fact 12:34.300 --> 12:39.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that any change he has to make to his opinion from here on out, we are going to know. People 12:39.100 --> 12:44.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% can put these documents up side-by-side when the decision comes out, probably at the end of June, 12:46.166 --> 12:49.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and see what was changed and which justices agreed or did not agree with that portion, 12:52.166 --> 12:54.966 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% even down to the footnotes people will be examining them. 12:54.966 --> 12:59.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, itús sort of an observer effect kind of situation. Simply bringing your eyes 13:01.900 --> 13:05.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% onto the process alters the process. Maybe it doesnút change the outcome, 13:07.100 --> 13:09.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% but there is no question the deliberations the justices have on this case from here on out 13:09.900 --> 13:12.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% simply have to be affected whether they want to admit it or not. 13:12.533 --> 13:15.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: And talking about sort of effect of this, 13:15.100 --> 13:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we have been talking about the politics of it. But this week, 13:17.333 --> 13:21.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I was in Mississippi and Louisiana talking to Americans about the draft decision. 13:21.733 --> 13:25.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Shannon Brewer is the director of the only abortion clinic in Mississippi. It is, 13:25.733 --> 13:28.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of course, the one at the center of this case. 13:30.066 --> 13:32.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% SHANNON BREWER, DIRECTOR OF JACKSON WOMENúS HEALTH ORGANIZATION: I donút have any hope 13:32.100 --> 13:35.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% with anything to our judicial system. I have no hope in Congress right now 13:38.366 --> 13:43.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% because this should never be. It should never have been. We should never have gotten to this point. 13:45.333 --> 13:49.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And in Louisiana, I talked to a 32-year-old Lillian Newton. Sheús had 13:49.433 --> 13:54.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% three abortions and had since become a worker at the clinic that provided her her care. 13:55.933 --> 13:57.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% LILLIAN NEWTON, PATIENT AND CLINIC WORKER: Had I not had 13:59.800 --> 14:03.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% abortion access when I was at the age of 24, 25, debating my life path, I would have been 14:06.000 --> 14:11.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% completely lost. I donút know how I would have made it through an unplanned pregnancy. 14:12.600 --> 14:15.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ALCINDOR: I also talked to opponents of abortion rights, who told me 14:15.500 --> 14:19.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they want to provide more resources for women to deal with unwanted pregnancies. 14:19.600 --> 14:24.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Abby, I want to come to you. Whatús your sense of whoús going to be most impacted 14:24.233 --> 14:26.300 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% if Roe v. Wade is overturned? 14:26.300 --> 14:30.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PHILLIP: Well, thereús no question that the women who are in a position to 14:32.766 --> 14:35.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% want an abortion in the first place are going to be affected. We have already seen 14:35.433 --> 14:40.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the effects of that in -- most recently in the state of Texas, where they passed 14:42.366 --> 14:46.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a restrictive abortion law. It resulted in women leaving Texas and going to other states. 14:48.066 --> 14:52.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There is a practical impact of it, whether you support abortion rights or whether you donút, 14:54.133 --> 14:57.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% there is no question that women are caught in the middle here. And I think a lot -- there 14:59.733 --> 15:04.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was kind of a debate happening among some conservatives about whether overturning Roe 15:06.766 --> 15:10.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% would have a significant effect or not. Some argue there are not that many abortions happening 15:12.933 --> 15:17.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in this country anyway, so rolling back Roe is not going to make a difference. 15:19.900 --> 15:23.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But there is a reason this debate has dominated American politics for 50-plus years. 15:24.933 --> 15:28.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And itús because there is a sort of -- I mean, thereús an impact to this that 15:30.866 --> 15:35.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% deals with women and people on both sides care incredibly deeply about. 15:37.800 --> 15:41.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I donút think it is true that the effect of rolling back Roe would be nonexistent. 15:43.466 --> 15:46.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% There are, you know, over a dozen states where they have laws already on the books that would 15:48.100 --> 15:51.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% completely outlaw abortion, and then many more that would be able to pass those laws. 15:53.133 --> 15:55.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, the effect would be pretty sweeping and pretty significant. 15:55.200 --> 15:58.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% MARTIN: And, Yamiche, if I could -- I think it would add to the red versus blue dynamic 15:58.933 --> 16:02.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% we have been living with in this country for really the last 15 years, 16:02.233 --> 16:07.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% which President Trump accelerated, this patchwork of not just laws, but really culture and values 16:09.733 --> 16:14.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% between red and blue America, and in some cases, even within states themselves. 16:14.466 --> 16:19.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have a book of this week, we talk about in the book what this country has become and 16:21.533 --> 16:26.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% how the two parties have pulled further apart. They are talking in opposite directions. I think 16:28.166 --> 16:32.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% this will be a vivid example of a country in which he would have entire regions where 16:34.633 --> 16:39.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% abortion is illegal and people would obviously have to sort of on a plane for abortion access. 16:41.466 --> 16:46.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% That really captures two Americas dynamic that all have been covered for the last ten years. 16:48.066 --> 16:51.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PHILLIP: To be clear that is not how the country operates right now because most Americans have 16:53.100 --> 16:57.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% some access to abortion and most Americans are in the ideological middle on this issue. 16:59.433 --> 17:02.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: I want to ask a quick follow-up, Abby, which is the director of the only 17:02.400 --> 17:06.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% abortion clinic in Mississippi who she says overwhelmingly serves women of color, women 17:08.833 --> 17:12.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% low the poverty line, she said she has no faith in Congress, no faith in Washington. 17:14.500 --> 17:16.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I wonder what you make of that given that Jonathan is talking about this red and blue America, 17:16.300 --> 17:21.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and this woman says while politics are not going to help us at all. 17:21.266 --> 17:26.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PHILLIP: I mean, she is not wrong. In the 49 years Roe has been the law of the land, 17:28.400 --> 17:33.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% neither side has been able to codify a federal law that either restricts abortion or codifies 17:36.300 --> 17:41.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the tenets of Roe. Why is that even though we have gone through periods of super majorities 17:43.866 --> 17:46.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% in the House and in the Senate and the presidency being held by one party? It is because they have 17:48.900 --> 17:52.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not been able to come to a consensus on this issue, even within the political parties. 17:52.933 --> 17:57.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, she is not wrong that the political process has been very broken on this issue 17:57.900 --> 18:02.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and roe has deferred the country dealing with that for 49 years. 18:02.700 --> 18:07.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Julia, you were outside the Supreme Court. You saw the energy on both sides. 18:07.433 --> 18:11.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I wonder what you make of sort of the ability to sustain that energy both on 18:11.666 --> 18:15.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the Republican side or on the Democrat side given what you saw this week. 18:15.500 --> 18:20.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% AINSLEY: This is a foreshadowing of what is to come, whether it is in June or when we get 18:23.033 --> 18:26.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this opinion, when its finally final. What I saw was a deep division. I saw people getting in each 18:30.933 --> 18:35.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% others faces. I stood there as the police, the Capitol police, at the request of the Supreme 18:38.233 --> 18:41.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Court police put up barriers, which split the two sides. They asked everyone who was for abortion 18:43.333 --> 18:47.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% access on one side and the pro-life, the antiabortion activists, on the other side. 18:48.433 --> 18:49.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They felt they had to separate this crowd that is 18:51.433 --> 18:55.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% so indicative of what Jonathan is saying, not only on this issue, but the president 18:57.566 --> 19:01.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% is trying to rally voters, saying that even if abortion is not going to get you to the polls, 19:03.133 --> 19:07.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the way this leaked opinion was drafted shows that this could happen to other issues. 19:10.466 --> 19:15.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% Basically if you have the Supreme Court going back on long-established precedent on things like 19:18.066 --> 19:21.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% gay marriage, for example, although that could be up in the air. It could be left to the states. The 19:23.000 --> 19:26.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% president is hoping that will get people to the polls. But I will say that if you look at how 19:28.600 --> 19:32.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the draft opinion was structured, they do say, Alito says, that this is a specific 19:34.333 --> 19:39.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% issue and that there is no right other than abortion that they think it is time to roll 19:40.966 --> 19:44.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% back precedent on, that they see this as a specific topic that there is a right to do that. 19:46.900 --> 19:51.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But there is a lot in play here. I think it really could continue to galvanize voters and bring them 19:53.700 --> 19:55.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to the polls. We also have to remember, there are a lot of other issues. There is the economy, 19:56.833 --> 19:59.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thereús the ongoing war with no end in sight, 19:59.500 --> 20:04.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% thereús inflation, thereús so much that can bring voters to the polls. 20:07.033 --> 20:09.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And as we heard this week, I think Lindsey Graham comment on the fact there are actually very few 20:09.433 --> 20:13.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% single issue voters out there. But this could certainly that energizes people. And I think 20:13.433 --> 20:18.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% the Biden administration is hoping as a result of this that midterms will not such a referendum 20:20.400 --> 20:24.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% on President Biden, but would really be a matter of, you know, blue versus red 20:24.000 --> 20:29.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% values and what values voters will hold and that will drive them to the polls rather. 20:31.033 --> 20:33.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Josh, as Julia is talking about the midterms, this week, we saw former President 20:33.733 --> 20:38.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Trumpús grip on the GOP was in full display in Ohio and Indiana. Most candidates, he endorsed won 20:40.866 --> 20:44.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% key primary races, chief among them J.D. Vance, of course, was an author and venture capitalist. 20:46.200 --> 20:48.833 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What Iúm really interested in is the fact that President Trump, 20:48.833 --> 20:52.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% heús not taking this big victory lap. Heús sort of saying Iúm going to wait and see what happens. 20:52.666 --> 20:56.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% What does that say about how conservatives are approaching this as the midterms are approaching? 20:59.533 --> 21:02.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% GERSTEIN: Well, there is this nervousness all of a sudden on the part of Republicans. We cite, you 21:05.333 --> 21:08.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% know, both of you talking about Trump seeming to be a bit nervous about which races he should take 21:11.333 --> 21:14.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% credit for as we go to the general election. You have to wonder if political advisors are telling 21:16.366 --> 21:19.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% him or telling the candidates that in the general election he might be a liability. We are seeing 21:21.766 --> 21:25.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this with Republicans in Washington over this potential revocation of the Roe v. Wade precedent. 21:27.233 --> 21:31.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It was really fascinating that Republican lawmakers only wanted to talk about the 21:31.900 --> 21:36.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% leak in "Politico" and whether it was illegal and that it should be investigated, and they didnút 21:39.433 --> 21:42.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% seem to want to talk about this historic victory that the conservative legal movement seems to be 21:43.666 --> 21:45.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% on the verge of, you know, turning over a 50-year-old precedent. 21:45.533 --> 21:47.600 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And you have to wonder, 21:47.600 --> 21:50.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are they concerned that may be the poll numbers donút look back good for them? 21:50.033 --> 21:52.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: We have a couple of minutes left, but I want to go to you really quickly, 21:52.566 --> 21:56.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% 30 seconds. Your reaction, especially with great reporting in this book? 21:56.666 --> 22:01.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MARTIN: Well, I wanted to link Roe v. Wade and the results of the Ohio 22:03.633 --> 22:06.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% primary. Thereús a reason, Yamiche, we call the book "This Will Not Pass". 22:06.233 --> 22:10.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I think there was this expectation among a lot of Americans, certainly on the left or center left, 22:10.066 --> 22:15.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that, hey, after Trump is gone, everything is going to be okay and thatús yesterdayús news. 22:16.933 --> 22:20.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I think this potential opinion from the court and Trump being able to engineer the 22:22.566 --> 22:25.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Ohio Senate primary shows that this will not pass, that Trumpism and the larger 22:27.600 --> 22:30.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% forces of tribalism and polarization that are shaping our politics today 22:30.633 --> 22:35.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are ongoing, the story has not ended. And thatús part of the reason we wrote this book, 22:35.200 --> 22:40.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was to sort of capture the fact that this didnút end on election day when Biden won. 22:40.000 --> 22:44.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% This is not something but the sort of yesterdayús news. It is now and itús 22:44.533 --> 22:46.800 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% tomorrow. And itús the biggest story of our time. 22:46.800 --> 22:51.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Abby, I wanted to turn to another subject. There was history made this week apart 22:54.900 --> 22:59.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% from the big scoop of the Supreme Court, and that is the that the White House announced that Karine 22:59.633 --> 23:04.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Jean-Pierre, sheús going to be the first Black woman and first openly gay woman to be the White 23:06.633 --> 23:09.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% House press secretary. Politics aside, what do you make of this moment and her at the podium. 23:09.733 --> 23:13.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PHILLIP: Yeah. This is a year of a lot of significant firsts for Black women 23:13.600 --> 23:18.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in particular, the Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson who will be seated 23:18.400 --> 23:23.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% this year. And this is yet another moment. I mean, the spokesperson for the government of the United 23:23.333 --> 23:28.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% States is a Black gay woman. And itús just another step forward in that element of progress, which is 23:31.900 --> 23:36.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about just having these major roles in government, in politics, in law, 23:38.300 --> 23:41.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% being more representative of the whole country. 23:41.733 --> 23:46.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, the Biden administration I think, President Biden trying to make those significant 23:49.100 --> 23:54.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% moves, a Black vice president, Black woman vice president, Supreme Court justice and now 23:56.666 --> 23:59.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% press secretary, itús significant, meaningful and perhaps a nod to who he knows is a force behind 24:02.533 --> 24:06.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% him sitting in the White House in the first place, which is Black women, 24:06.466 --> 24:11.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who, you know, as you know, Yamiche, and I know you know, J. Mart, really are the fuel behind 24:13.833 --> 24:17.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a lot of the Democratic machine, especially in the South but all across the country. 24:17.666 --> 24:19.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% MARTIN: For Joe Biden especially. Thatús for sure. 24:19.233 --> 24:20.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% PHILLIP: And for Joe Biden, thatús true. 24:21.633 --> 24:23.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: For Joe Biden and the Democratic Party. 24:23.666 --> 24:25.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, there was a lot of talk about and itús so -- Iúm so grateful that all of 24:25.366 --> 24:27.433 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% you were here at this table. Weúre going to be condemning to talk about 24:27.433 --> 24:30.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the politics of abortion and all of the things that are going on in the midterms. 24:30.866 --> 24:32.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you so much to Julia, Josh, 24:32.933 --> 24:36.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Jonathan and Abby for joining us and for sharing your reporting. 24:36.000 --> 24:39.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Weúll continue our conversation on "The Washington Week extra". Jonathan and his 24:39.733 --> 24:44.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% co-author Alex Burns talk about their newly released book "This Will Not Pass: Trump, 24:44.533 --> 24:49.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Biden and the Battle for Americaús Future." You can find it on our website, Facebook and YouTube. 24:49.266 --> 24:54.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And on Saturday on "PBS News Weekend", a report from on the ground in Ukraine. 24:56.233 --> 24:58.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, finally, this week marks one year since I became the moderator of "Washington Week". 24:58.866 --> 25:03.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I am so way full to you, our viewers, and to the great journalists who join our program every week. 25:04.766 --> 25:06.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Hereús to many more Fridays. Good night from Washington.