1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,260 ROBERT COSTA: Isolated in his own party, at odds with advisors and, as ever, defiant. 2 00:00:08,260 --> 00:00:14,290 President Trump ignites a political firestorm over Russia. I'm Robert Costa. 3 00:00:14,290 --> 00:00:20,260 We dig into the latest reporting on the Trump administration tonight, on Washington Week. 4 00:00:20,260 --> 00:00:22,910 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I let him know we can't have this, we're not 5 00:00:22,910 --> 00:00:26,520 going to have it, and that's the way it's going to be. 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,120 ROBERT COSTA: Under pressure from some Republicans and Democrats, President Trump 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:37,470 insists he did confront Russian President Vladimir Putin about election interference. 8 00:00:37,470 --> 00:00:41,760 But earlier in the week, he mostly accepted Putin's view. 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,760 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I have great confidence in my intelligence 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:52,140 people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his 11 00:00:52,140 --> 00:00:55,890 denial today. He just said it's not Russia. 12 00:00:55,890 --> 00:01:00,910 ROBERT COSTA: Those statements led to confusion and concern on Capitol Hill and raised 13 00:01:00,910 --> 00:01:05,380 new questions about the president's handling of foreign policy. 14 00:01:05,380 --> 00:01:10,050 Does he trust his own administration's intelligence on Russia? 15 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:12,470 DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DAN COATS: (From video.) I think anybody who thinks 16 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:17,490 Vladimir Putin doesn't have his stamp on everything that happens in Russia is misinformed. 17 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:23,370 ROBERT COSTA: Now the president is planning another summit with Putin, this time at the White House. 18 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:26,870 DIRECTOR DAN COATS: (From video.) That's going to be special. (Laughter.) 19 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:31,110 ROBERT COSTA: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says Putin will not be invited to 20 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:37,820 Congress. We go inside the story next. 21 00:01:37,820 --> 00:01:47,370 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 22 00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:52,630 ROBERT COSTA: Good evening and welcome back to Washington Week. And welcome to our new home. 23 00:01:52,630 --> 00:01:57,930 You can be assured that even with a fresh look and feel, our commitment to in-depth 24 00:01:57,930 --> 00:02:01,180 conversations remains the same. Now, to the news. 25 00:02:01,180 --> 00:02:05,420 The fallout from President Trump's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin has 26 00:02:05,420 --> 00:02:11,930 only fueled Mr. Trump's resolve. And he invited Putin to the White House this fall. 27 00:02:11,930 --> 00:02:15,390 But that wasn't the only flashpoint this week. 28 00:02:15,390 --> 00:02:19,160 Dan Coats, the president's Director of National Intelligence, gave a candid and 29 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,730 revealing interview during a security summit in Aspen Colorado. 30 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:27,030 When asked about the Trump-Putin summit, he had little to say. 31 00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:30,980 DIRECTOR DAN COATS: (From video.) I don't know what happened in that meeting. 32 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:34,420 I think as time goes by, and the president has already mentioned some things that 33 00:02:34,420 --> 00:02:39,850 happened in that meeting, I think we will learn more. But that is the president's prerogative. 34 00:02:39,850 --> 00:02:44,350 ROBERT COSTA: And he was surprised to learn a second summit was in the works. 35 00:02:44,350 --> 00:02:47,730 ANDREA MITCHELL: (From video.) That Vladimir Putin is coming to the White House in the fall. 36 00:02:47,730 --> 00:02:53,000 DIRECTOR DAN COATS: (From video.) Say that again. (Laughter, applause.) 37 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,930 ANDREA MITCHELL: (From video.) You -- Vladimir Putin coming to the -- 38 00:02:55,930 --> 00:02:57,820 DIRECTOR DAN COATS: (From video.) Did I hear you -- yeah. 39 00:02:57,820 --> 00:03:00,870 ROBERT COSTA: The interview made instant headlines, with White House aides wondering if 40 00:03:00,870 --> 00:03:07,240 Coats was going rogue and national security officials alarmed that the DNI was out of the loop. 41 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,750 Still, a new poll shows Republican support for the president's performance in Helsinki 42 00:03:12,750 --> 00:03:18,120 is sky high. Seventy-nine percent approve, and 18 percent disapprove. 43 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,180 Some Republicans, however, are not cheering. 44 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:26,850 In an op-ed in The New York Times, Republican Congressman Will Hurd of Texas wrote this, 45 00:03:26,850 --> 00:03:31,940 Over the course of my career as an undercover officer in the CIA, I saw Russian 46 00:03:31,940 --> 00:03:36,930 intelligence manipulate many people. I never thought I would see the day when an 47 00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:42,310 American president would be one of them. Quite a week. 48 00:03:42,310 --> 00:03:46,820 And joining me around the table this evening, Margaret Brennan, moderator of CBS' Face 49 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:50,790 the Nation, Yamiche Alcindor of the PBS NewsHour, 50 00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:56,650 Jonathan Swan of Axios, and Dan Balz of The Washington Post. 51 00:03:56,650 --> 00:04:01,640 Let's go back to Director Coats and the question that has gripped Washington this week: 52 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:08,440 What is going on at the highest levels of the government with the people around the president? 53 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,800 Margaret, you've spent much of your career covering the State Department, talking to top 54 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,750 national security officials. What is the reality of what's happening around this president? 55 00:04:18,750 --> 00:04:22,970 MARGARET BRENNAN: The reality is that there is one Trump administration policy on 56 00:04:22,970 --> 00:04:27,460 paper, and then there is one that the president carries out. And they don't always match up. 57 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:32,020 And no one on the national security team can actually honestly tell you with certainty 58 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:35,330 that when the president walks into the room that he will stick to the principles they've 59 00:04:35,330 --> 00:04:38,390 laid out. The president celebrates this as flexibility. 60 00:04:38,390 --> 00:04:43,300 He says this has been an asset when he's been negotiating real estate deals. 61 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:46,850 Obviously the risk level is much higher when we're talking about national security 62 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:50,730 objectives. And so this is where it creates this tension. 63 00:04:50,730 --> 00:04:56,480 You heard that from the DNI Dan Coats, and looking gob-smacked on stage, almost making 64 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:03,170 light of this idea that he, even though he oversees 17 intelligence agencies, didn't know 65 00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:07,730 that at one time the Russian ambassador and the foreign minister were going into the Oval Office. 66 00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:10,660 And he didn't know that Vladimir Putin was about to be warmly welcomed around the time 67 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:13,960 of the upcoming congressional races. That's not a good look. 68 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:21,950 But at the same time, the DNI I think was showing here that this was some space between 69 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:26,210 him and the president because he wants to stand with the people in the intelligence 70 00:05:26,210 --> 00:05:29,350 community whose work he was defending on that stage. 71 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:33,670 ROBERT COSTA: Jonathan, what's the view inside of the West Wing as they are watching all of that? 72 00:05:33,670 --> 00:05:37,570 JONATHAN SWAN: Well, I got two phone calls in pretty quick succession. 73 00:05:37,570 --> 00:05:41,870 One -- the first one was literally while it was still going, going are you seeing this? 74 00:05:41,870 --> 00:05:46,630 Have you seen this? Did you know about this? I didn't know about this. Did you know about this? 75 00:05:46,630 --> 00:05:51,680 And the second one was pretty shortly after that, was a senior White House official who 76 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:58,410 was already speculating about Trump firing Coats. This is not having yet spoken to the president about it. 77 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:02,550 They're all completely blindsided by this interview. 78 00:06:02,550 --> 00:06:06,120 My understanding is John Kelly didn't know about -- the first he learned about it was 79 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:12,370 when he saw it and sort of went, oh, OK. So that's not atypical in this administration. 80 00:06:12,370 --> 00:06:16,960 They are -- if you talk to anyone at the moment in the West Wing, you can get pockets of 81 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,300 information in a particular siloed area based on what they spoke to the president -- you 82 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:25,220 know, the last time they spoke to the president two days ago. 83 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:29,210 But no one feels confident in giving you -- imparting information. 84 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:34,630 Like, people aren't even really pretending to -- you know, eight months ago everyone was 85 00:06:34,630 --> 00:06:39,900 giving you these great theories of how, oh, actually he's really playing 4-D chess and 86 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:45,880 deep insight into how the president thinks. Now they just sort of go -- it's a big shrug. 87 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,570 They really don't even pretend to interpret the president anymore or pretend that they 88 00:06:50,570 --> 00:06:53,660 know what's coming next. 89 00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:56,310 ROBERT COSTA: Yamiche, Jonathan used the word silo. 90 00:06:56,310 --> 00:06:59,040 Is the president isolated as he makes foreign policy? 91 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,110 And if Director Coats didn't know about the invitation to Putin, who's driving that 92 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:06,450 second invitation to Putin inside of this administration? 93 00:07:06,450 --> 00:07:09,890 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: I think President Trump is absolutely driving everything. 94 00:07:09,890 --> 00:07:12,950 And the fact that he spent two hours when he was supposed to spend 90 minutes with 95 00:07:12,950 --> 00:07:17,420 President Putin alone in a room with only translators -- he didn't take the people that 96 00:07:17,420 --> 00:07:21,270 are close to him, he didn't take at least Secretary of State Mike Pompeo or John Bolton. 97 00:07:21,270 --> 00:07:24,960 He didn't say, I need to have at least my super top aides with me in this room. 98 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,550 He said, no, I'm going to go at this alone. 99 00:07:27,550 --> 00:07:32,950 And the fact that the DNI Dan Coats is saying that, well, we'll figure out what was said 100 00:07:32,950 --> 00:07:36,280 at some point, at some point things will kind of leak out to us, it's almost like they're 101 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,710 waiting for journalist like me, you, and Jonathan, and others to tell them what happened. 102 00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:45,380 I think that as much as we as reporters think that we're wondering, OK, how do we kind 103 00:07:45,380 --> 00:07:48,660 of get at the information, the people that are in the West Wing, as well as the people 104 00:07:48,660 --> 00:07:53,030 who are working for the president are themselves kind of searching for information. 105 00:07:53,030 --> 00:07:55,370 And I think President Trump likes this. 106 00:07:55,370 --> 00:07:59,800 There's this idea that he feels as though he knows what's best for his administration. 107 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,790 I think at the very beginning there was some idea that, you know, he was young, and he 108 00:08:03,790 --> 00:08:08,770 was -- or, not young, but he was not someone who was very experienced at being president 109 00:08:08,770 --> 00:08:11,290 or in politics, so he needed to have people around him that 110 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:14,710 would kind of usher in and kind of guide him. 111 00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:17,180 And now he's saying, look, I've been doing this job for more than a year and a half. 112 00:08:17,180 --> 00:08:19,890 I know what's best, and this is what I'm going to do. 113 00:08:19,890 --> 00:08:24,060 ROBERT COSTA: Dan, you're writing your Sunday column about Coats and President Trump. 114 00:08:24,060 --> 00:08:28,370 What's grabbling your attention as you sit down to write that and you talk to your sources? 115 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:32,130 DAN BALZ: Well, I mean, the first thing that grabs all of us is what we just saw again 116 00:08:32,130 --> 00:08:37,440 with that reaction by Dan Coats. That is an extraordinary moment, to see 117 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:44,040 the director of national intelligence caught by surprise about a meeting with the Russian president. 118 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,940 We've never seen anything like that. And you walk this week back to Helsinki, 119 00:08:48,940 --> 00:08:54,710 and everything that has happened has been out of the ordinary and different than what you would expect. 120 00:08:54,710 --> 00:08:57,520 I talked to a person today who had been in a previous 121 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,390 administration in a senior national security position. 122 00:09:02,390 --> 00:09:09,180 And he made this observation, which was a decision to bring the Russian president -- 123 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:15,160 particularly this Russian president -- to the White House in prior administrations would 124 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,440 have been done only after national security meeting, principals meeting. 125 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:26,350 He said, there seems to be no process in this White House to make these kinds of decisions. 126 00:09:26,350 --> 00:09:32,470 Similarly, he said there seems to be no process for assessing what happened in Helsinki. 127 00:09:32,470 --> 00:09:36,470 And Dan Coats was in the dark about what happened in 128 00:09:36,470 --> 00:09:40,490 those two hours between the president and Putin. 129 00:09:40,490 --> 00:09:46,430 So, you know, as Margaret said, we have a situation in which you have a president and 130 00:09:46,430 --> 00:09:52,240 his national security operation going in separate tracks, and a White House staff trying 131 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,660 to constrain a president who's determined to make his own rules. 132 00:09:56,660 --> 00:10:00,160 ROBERT COSTA: And we all remain in the dark a little bit about what actually was 133 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,050 discussed at that meeting between President Trump and President Putin. 134 00:10:03,050 --> 00:10:06,760 Based on your reporting, what have we learned about what has actually been agreed to or 135 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,060 may be agreed to between these two countries? 136 00:10:10,060 --> 00:10:12,970 MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, because only the interpreters were in the room, the top 137 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:16,800 advisors are relying on what the president is retelling. 138 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,600 And from what I'm told from my sources, the president was insistent that he held a firm 139 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:26,100 line specifically on the conflict in Syria, saying that he wouldn't be drawing down the 140 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:30,680 2,000 or so U.S. troops there until Iran withdraws its forces. 141 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:35,460 That's a pretty indefinite timeline. Iran is firmly entrenched there. 142 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:40,130 But what that does is that's relief to Israel perhaps. 143 00:10:40,130 --> 00:10:44,060 It's a relief to the president's own national security team who had been told at one 144 00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:47,030 point by the president himself: I want them out within the next six months. 145 00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:50,100 So that's a huge reversal from the president. 146 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:54,150 But it also was a sigh of relief to many because they feared this was a chip that the 147 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:58,730 president might bargain away with Vladimir Putin when he got into the room, and that that 148 00:10:58,730 --> 00:11:03,080 would hurt U.S. leverage in the region. 149 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,090 But on everything else, the main message I'm hearing is the message was the agreement -- 150 00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:12,320 the meeting was the agreement, I should say, the next one. 151 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,530 There was no major national security objective that was achieved in Ukraine, in Syria. 152 00:11:17,530 --> 00:11:19,860 There were proposals floated. The White House shot down, 153 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:22,820 pretty forcefully, one of them today, saying that they 154 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:26,580 weren't going to accept Vladimir's Putin's idea of holding a referendum that would 155 00:11:26,580 --> 00:11:29,660 essentially allow Russia to annex more territory in eastern Ukraine. 156 00:11:29,660 --> 00:11:33,450 So a pushback pretty hard from the national security community to some of the proposals 157 00:11:33,450 --> 00:11:36,620 that the president said he was actually going to take time to think about. 158 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:40,250 ROBERT COSTA: What about the confusion in the briefing room this week when you were 159 00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:44,120 there, Yamiche, about whether the administration would send over former U.S. 160 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,290 officials, like former ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul, to talk to Russian 161 00:11:47,290 --> 00:11:51,900 intelligence officers? The White House seemed to consider that, then swatted away the idea. 162 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:56,600 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, the idea that -- the fact is, the president first called that 163 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,970 an incredible offer. I was in Helsinki at the 164 00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:01,950 press conference when he said: Well, Putin has really 165 00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:04,770 interesting ideas about how we can get at this election interference stuff and has 166 00:12:04,770 --> 00:12:07,310 interesting ideas about how we can work together. 167 00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:10,180 And of course, all the reporters in the room are thinking, well, what is that interesting idea? 168 00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:14,350 Fast forward, we learn that Putin was essentially saying: If you allow us to interview 169 00:12:14,350 --> 00:12:17,720 and talk to and interrogate Americans, including the former U.S. 170 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,430 ambassador to Russia, we'll invite Mueller to come over here and he can talk to some of 171 00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:25,030 those Russian officials that he thinks interfered in your election. 172 00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:29,810 Sarah Sanders said -- when asked about this very bluntly, she said: Well, we have to 173 00:12:29,810 --> 00:12:33,070 think about it. We're going to get back to you on that. 174 00:12:33,070 --> 00:12:37,200 A couple of hours later, the State Department said, that's absurd. That would never happen. 175 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,200 So what you had was two messages, kind of like two messages coming from the intel 176 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,040 community and President Trump. You had two messages 177 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,790 coming from the State Department and Sarah Sanders. 178 00:12:45,790 --> 00:12:49,100 And finally, about 24 hours later, Sarah Sanders cleaned it up and said: 179 00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:52,560 No, President Trump does not agree with that. He's not going to do that. 180 00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,760 But the fact that they were entertaining it in the White House briefing and that State 181 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,320 Department knew very quickly to say it was absurd, tells you that, again, this is an 182 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,730 administration that's not on the same page. 183 00:13:01,730 --> 00:13:04,540 ROBERT COSTA: Where is Defense Secretary Jim Mattis? 184 00:13:04,540 --> 00:13:07,670 Where's Chief of Staff Kelly? Where is Secretary of State Pompeo? 185 00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:10,230 I mean, we keep hearing that they're the guardrails in this administration, 186 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:12,800 but they've been pretty quiet this week. 187 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,880 JONATHAN SWAN: Well, it's funny -- it's funny you say that, Bob. 188 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,750 Like, when -- I was on the trip as well. And when -- I was in Brussels for the NATO summit. 189 00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:21,830 And when you talk to European officials, they will -- and I'm sure Margaret has had many 190 00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:25,290 of these same conversations -- they have these perfectly normal conversations with Jim 191 00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:30,520 Mattis where he -- it's like everything's normal. It's like we're dealing with a normal administration. 192 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,290 And actually, in many senses, they are doing normal things. 193 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:38,880 Trump has actually invested more military resources in Europe than Obama did. 194 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,840 So they're quite happy with some of the substantive things. And Mattis is a very reassuring presence. 195 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,740 But they've all come -- they've all come to the conclusion that this line that has been 196 00:13:48,740 --> 00:13:52,920 sort of fed to them of 12 months of, don't listen to the tweets, ignore the tweets, pay 197 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:59,630 attention to what we do -- that's kind of reaching the end of its use-by date, that line, 198 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:05,420 because the rhetoric actually matters in lots of different ways. 199 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:08,780 And they know -- these European officials and other officials know that when they talk 200 00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:14,360 to James Mattis, he is not speaking for the president of the United States -- not even remotely. 201 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,110 ROBERT COSTA: Well, if that's the case, Dan, then why do they stay? 202 00:14:18,110 --> 00:14:22,210 If you're in this Cabinet or you're National Security Advisor John Bolton, why do you 203 00:14:22,210 --> 00:14:25,680 stay? You've studied administrations for years. 204 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,930 DAN BALZ: Well, Bob, I would say there's a high-minded reason and a not so high-minded 205 00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:32,360 reason. The high-minded reason is a belief that they are serving their country. 206 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,520 I mean, somebody like Secretary Mattis, you know, lifetime career in the military -- 207 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,730 duty, honor, country. They believe in what they're doing. 208 00:14:39,730 --> 00:14:43,860 They believe that when the president asks them to serve, they should serve. 209 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:47,970 I think they suspect, or they believe, that they are, in fact, providing at least some 210 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:55,380 guiderails, that they are in some way or another being able to reassure allies that there 211 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:59,850 is -- you know, that there is a government that can function effectively. 212 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,900 I think the less high-minded reason is that some people are attracted to power, and it 213 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:07,330 is very hard to give it up when you have it. 214 00:15:07,330 --> 00:15:10,690 And once you get to those positions -- and I'm not ascribing that to any particular 215 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:15,540 individual but just to human nature -- that that makes it difficult to step aside. 216 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,350 ROBERT COSTA: You've spent some time interview National Security Advisor John Bolton in 217 00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:25,010 the past month. And he seemed to try to navigate that, sometimes uneasily, with you. 218 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:29,010 MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it's interesting, because this is where we get into the policy on paper. 219 00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:32,120 When you say from -- the national security advisor often says, well, that is not the 220 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,450 policy of the U.S. government, but leaves the door open to that policy -- 221 00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:38,860 JONATHAN SWAN: A wonderful line. A wonderful line. 222 00:15:38,860 --> 00:15:40,780 MARGARET BRENNAN: It's a wonderful line. And you say -- 223 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:42,770 JONATHAN SWAN: He said it to you, like, three times. (Laughter.) 224 00:15:42,770 --> 00:15:44,510 MARGARET BRENNAN: Exactly. And you're like, well, yes, this is why I'm 225 00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:46,800 asking you why the president is saying otherwise. 226 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,010 Why is the president saying things that aren't the policy of the U.S. government? 227 00:15:49,010 --> 00:15:51,940 Because it's very, very confusing to the European friends and allies that you were just 228 00:15:51,940 --> 00:15:56,190 mentioning there. And the reason that the rhetoric matter 229 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:59,980 is not -- this is a president who was elected as a disruptor. 230 00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:05,140 And that's not necessarily what the outcry on these national security matters is about. 231 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:09,670 It's because those guardrails are in place not only to protect the president from 232 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:12,960 himself, but to protect the country and to protect the institutions. 233 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,160 I mean, when you were talking about words mattering before NATO, the collective defense 234 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:24,040 premise is what NATO is about. You know, protecting each other. 235 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,790 If you are drawing into doubt that Montenegro or one of those members is worth 236 00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:32,100 defending, then that stops working. 237 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:35,810 It doesn't matter if you up defense spending if Vladimir Putin doubts whether or not 238 00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:39,250 you'd come in and defend any of those countries in the first place. 239 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:43,300 So that's where the words on NATO really matter, where the president is also leaving the 240 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,790 door open -- that conversation with Bolton and others on, well, maybe we can talk about 241 00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:50,320 parts of Ukraine being up for grabs. 242 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,570 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, I spoke to Douglas Lute, who is a former U.S. 243 00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:57,330 representative to NATO. And he, shortly after the Helsinki summit, told me two things. 244 00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:01,470 The first thing was, that he expects NATO allies to start crafting workarounds of the 245 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:06,550 United States, because he thinks that NATO allies are going to stop trusting President Trump. 246 00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:10,300 We saw the leader of Germany come out and say: I don't know if we can trust the U.S. 247 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:14,540 with Trump at the helm. But then he also said, things could be a lot worse. 248 00:17:14,540 --> 00:17:18,720 He didn't change the U.S.'s relationship with NATO. He didn't pull out any troops. 249 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,070 He didn't change any military exercises. There was all this 250 00:17:22,070 --> 00:17:26,020 idea coming into the NATO summit that people were very worried that 251 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:28,780 he was going to do that in his meeting with Putin, and none of that happened. 252 00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:32,360 So Douglas Lute was saying, yes, it looks kind of crazy in some ways because of all the 253 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,580 things that President Trump is saying, but that things haven't changed. 254 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:39,030 ROBERT COSTA: And they're also watching all this not only in the administration, but on 255 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:43,750 Capitol Hill. I was at the Capitol this week and you see the alarm among some Republican Senators, 256 00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:46,990 like Jeff Flake of Arizona. And then you talk to others, like 257 00:17:46,990 --> 00:17:50,520 Senator Rand Paul, and they take a much different view about the president's actions. 258 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,420 Let's hear what they have to say. 259 00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:56,540 SENATOR JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): (From video.) We have indulged myths and fabrications, 260 00:17:56,540 --> 00:18:03,030 pretended that it wasn't so bad. And our indulgence got us the capitulation in Helsinki. 261 00:18:03,030 --> 00:18:10,550 We in the Senate who have been elected to represent our constituents cannot be enablers of falsehoods. 262 00:18:10,550 --> 00:18:13,210 SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-KY): (From video.) Absolutely, I'm with the president on this. 263 00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:17,920 The intelligence community was full of biased people, including Peter Strzok, McCabe, 264 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,630 and dozens of others. I don't think anybody doubts that the Russians got involved with leaking email and 265 00:18:23,630 --> 00:18:28,200 hacking into email. But there is a question of whether or not the election was legitimate. 266 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:33,270 And all of this is a sideways way for those on the left to try to delegitimize Trump, 267 00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:36,410 and to say he didn't really win the election. 268 00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:39,850 ROBERT COSTA: Dan, we've been talking about all of the hawks around President Trump. 269 00:18:39,850 --> 00:18:43,170 But it's interesting to note that Senator Rand Paul, that Libertarian, more dovish wing 270 00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:48,290 of the Republican Party, has actually been embracing President Trump's position on Russia. 271 00:18:48,290 --> 00:18:51,880 Is President Trump almost more of a non-interventionist Libertarian on 272 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,980 foreign policy than we sometimes recognize? 273 00:18:54,980 --> 00:19:00,400 DAN BALZ: Well, he may be, Bob. His comments during the campaign were certainly contradictory. 274 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:07,130 He's somebody who on the one hand wants to project strength, muscularity, increased defense spending. 275 00:19:07,130 --> 00:19:12,140 But in other ways, as we've seen both as a candidate and his instincts as president if 276 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:14,970 not necessarily the policies, is to pull back. 277 00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:20,570 I mean, he wrestled with his advisors over what to do about Afghanistan for a very long 278 00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:27,010 time, and finally agreed with them to put some more troops in, rather than his view is 279 00:19:27,010 --> 00:19:31,160 why are we still there? We've been in there 17 years, 18 years. Let's get out of there. 280 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,590 Similarly with Syria, as Margaret just mentioned. 281 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:39,720 So the president -- the president may not know his own mind about these things. 282 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:47,560 He doesn't have a kind of fully formed sense of national security issues. He is a gut player. 283 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,320 So he responds in certain ways when he's asked about things, but he hasn't necessarily 284 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,620 thought deeply about them. And I think that creates the confusion. 285 00:19:56,620 --> 00:20:01,530 MARGARET BRENNAN: And I think it's a great point. I also think on Syria in particular, 286 00:20:01,530 --> 00:20:05,020 I was speaking with a former Obama administration official about it. 287 00:20:05,020 --> 00:20:07,990 And I said, really, tell me, what's the difference in the policy here? 288 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:10,870 Because a lot of this looks very similar. And the only thing the 289 00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:15,140 Obama administration official said to me was: At least we felt bad about it. 290 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:18,120 At least we felt bad that we weren't intervening in any humanitarian -- 291 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,000 ROBERT COSTA: So in the actual details, it's the same? 292 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,430 MARGARET BRENNAN: On the details it's the same. 293 00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:25,230 The matter of two strikes actually being followed through on, those pinpoint strikes 294 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:27,720 that were carried out by President Trump in the wake of two chemical weapons attacks. 295 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,790 But when President Trump was standing there next to Vladimir Putin, he didn't say, hey, 296 00:20:32,790 --> 00:20:37,030 by the way, why are you breaking the deal you made with me in Hamburg last year to have a 297 00:20:37,030 --> 00:20:40,740 ceasefire zone in the south of the country? 298 00:20:40,740 --> 00:20:43,900 Why aren't we talking more about the humanitarian aid corridors and things like that? 299 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:47,980 Secretary Pompeo is out there saying, we're going to talk about that. 300 00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:51,840 But President Trump was talking about saving lives with Russia in Syria, instead of 301 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,330 Russia bombing hospitals, as they continue to do. 302 00:20:55,330 --> 00:20:58,810 ROBERT COSTA: Jonathan, we saw the Axios poll, 79 percent of Republicans support the 303 00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:02,400 president's handling of Russia this week. 304 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,690 Is that why we didn't see Senator Flake's bipartisan bill with Senator Chris Coons of 305 00:21:05,690 --> 00:21:09,150 Delaware even get a vote in the Senate? 306 00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:12,150 Republicans may be handwringing over -- about his style, but at the end of the day they 307 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:15,150 still want to stand with him politically. 308 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:19,260 JONATHAN SWAN: They're terrified of crossing him, almost to a person. 309 00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:24,680 And the profiles in courage are retiring profiles in courage. And there's a reason for that. 310 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,880 And it's because they know he's vastly more popular than they are. 311 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:34,900 The polling shows it. It's -- McConnell's got a 25 percent approval and Trump's is up 80s. 312 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:38,890 Most popular Republican president at this point in his presidency. 313 00:21:38,890 --> 00:21:42,950 I think he's even passed George W. Bush after 9/11 with Republican voters. 314 00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:48,570 So, yes. And he also has the ability to -- it's almost a superpower. 315 00:21:48,570 --> 00:21:52,560 You take an issue like Russia, that it doesn't get much more orthodox than that in terms 316 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,210 of the Republican Party being tough on Russia. He has flipped that party on that issue. 317 00:21:58,210 --> 00:22:02,680 And you can go down the list. FBI, the Republican Party's view of the FBI. 318 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,180 Pick your issue. I mean, it's quite uncanny. Tariffs. Republican voters 319 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:12,210 now support tariffs. So, yeah, they're terrified. 320 00:22:12,210 --> 00:22:16,430 But just to pick up on that point that we were talking about his foreign policy. 321 00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:21,270 I think, yes, he oscillates, but his default position is always: Why is this our 322 00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:23,930 problem? Why is this our problem? 323 00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:27,040 ROBERT COSTA: Sounds a lot like Senator Paul. 324 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,020 Yamiche, you've, beyond covering the White House, have spent a lot of time covering Democrats. 325 00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:35,600 Let's watch a clip of Margaret's interview with former Secretary of State John Kerry for a moment. 326 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,540 MARGARET BRENNAN: (From video.) What did you make of President Trump's 327 00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:41,100 news conference with Vladimir Putin? 328 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,290 FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY: (From video.) I found it shocking. I found it to be 329 00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:50,160 one of the most disgraceful, remarkable moments of kowtowing to a 330 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,220 foreign leader by an American president that anyone has ever witnessed. 331 00:22:54,220 --> 00:22:59,230 And it wasn't just that it was a kind of surrender; it's that it is dangerous. 332 00:22:59,230 --> 00:23:06,840 A president stood there and did not defend our country. He stood there and did not defend the truth. 333 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,210 ROBERT COSTA: Margaret -- then I want to get Yamiche's take on the 334 00:23:10,210 --> 00:23:13,950 Democratic Party -- Secretary Kerry -- I mean, that reflects a lot of angst 335 00:23:13,950 --> 00:23:17,480 among former Obama officials as they watch all this. 336 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,110 MARGARET BRENNAN: It does. And, you know, this is someone who spent a lot of time negotiating with Russia. 337 00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:26,590 Diplomacy with Russia is not a toxic idea to him. That wasn't his objection here. 338 00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:30,490 It was that the president standing beside Putin didn't use forceful language, didn't 339 00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:36,730 confront, and then after the fact this walk back -- it wasn't believable, given that he 340 00:23:36,730 --> 00:23:41,230 spoke at length about his belief that all of this is fundamentally a witch hunt. 341 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:44,720 And it was interesting to hear Secretary Kerry also describe being there in China when 342 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,610 President Obama confronted Vladimir Putin for the first time about meddling. 343 00:23:48,610 --> 00:23:52,050 ROBERT COSTA: Yamiche, we've heard the word treason this week from Democrats. 344 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:56,980 The Republicans are having their own debate, but Democrats appear to have their own turning point. 345 00:23:56,980 --> 00:24:00,860 YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, I think Democrats see this as one of many issues that they can 346 00:24:00,860 --> 00:24:05,200 use in the midterms to say, look, you should elect us because we're going to be tough on 347 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,190 Russia, because we're not President Trump -- even though they said that wasn't going to 348 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:11,340 be their message over and over again. So there's this idea that Democrats 349 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:15,440 just see another thing to add to this -- separated families, tariffs, trade, jobs. 350 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,180 All these things that the Democrats kind of want to argue about. 351 00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:24,440 The problem is that what Rand Paul said and the poll from Axios tell us that Republican 352 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,510 voters feel as though people think that President Trump is illegitimate. 353 00:24:28,510 --> 00:24:30,800 And because of that, that's why they're being mean to him. 354 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,840 And they see that as people being mean to him because they don't want him to be president. 355 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,190 ROBERT COSTA: Churning dynamics in both parties this week. 356 00:24:36,190 --> 00:24:39,640 We'll keep an eye on it all. Thanks so much for everyone being here. 357 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,710 And let me pause to thank the terrific crew here at WETA. 358 00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:45,540 This new set wouldn't be possible without their hard work. 359 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:49,990 And as always, our conversation continues online on the Washington Week Extra. 360 00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:53,650 We will discuss the latest reports on the President's long-time lawyer, Michael Cohen, 361 00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:58,040 and possible audio recordings of his conversations with President Trump. 362 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,350 You can find that later tonight at PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. 363 00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:38,740 I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us.