1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,110 ROBERT COSTA: The investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election gets 2 00:00:05,110 --> 00:00:10,630 turned inside out. I'm Robert Costa, and we'll have the latest on the federal probes. 3 00:00:10,630 --> 00:00:16,200 Plus, why President Trump has declared war on leaders of hardline conservatives, tonight 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:22,970 on Washington Week. President Trump's fired national security adviser, Michael Flynn, 5 00:00:22,970 --> 00:00:29,320 wants to make a deal. The retired three-star general is offering to testify about 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,980 alleged Russian meddling in last year's election, but only if he gets immunity. 7 00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:40,690 Flynn had a different view of immunity last year, when Secretary Hillary Clinton's aides 8 00:00:40,690 --> 00:00:43,830 were questioned about her email server. 9 00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:46,700 GENERAL MICHAEL FLYNN: (From video.) When you are given immunity, that means that you've 10 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:48,660 probably committed a crime. 11 00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:50,790 ROBERT COSTA: Ditto for then-candidate Donald Trump. 12 00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:55,740 DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) And if you're not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for, right? 13 00:00:55,740 --> 00:01:00,090 ROBERT COSTA: But today President Trump supported the idea of immunity for Flynn, 14 00:01:00,090 --> 00:01:04,910 calling the congressional inquiry a "witch hunt." Meanwhile, the Senate Intelligence 15 00:01:04,910 --> 00:01:10,600 Committee held an eye-opening hearing into Russia's interference in American democracy. 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,620 CLINTON WATTS (Foreign Policy Research Institute): (From video.) Follow the trail of 17 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:16,950 dead Russians. There's been more dead Russians in the past three months that are tied 18 00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:20,840 to this investigation who have assets in banks all over the world. 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,340 They are dropping dead even in Western countries. 20 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:28,120 ROBERT COSTA: And we learned that White House staffers secretly provided House 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,700 Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes with information to support the president's 22 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:38,610 claim that he was wiretapped by former President Obama. We cover it all with 23 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:45,270 Dan Balz of The Washington Post, Kelly O'Donnell of NBC News, Alexis Simendinger of 24 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:51,420 Real Clear Politics, and Ed O'Keefe of The Washington Post and CBS News. 25 00:01:51,420 --> 00:01:57,700 ANNOUNCER: Celebrating 50 years, this is Washington Week. 26 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:02,800 Once again, from Washington, Robert Costa of The Washington Post. 27 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,610 ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. The investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 28 00:02:07,610 --> 00:02:11,430 election continue to plague the Trump administration. 29 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:16,310 House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes is under scrutiny for reportedly 30 00:02:16,310 --> 00:02:20,890 receiving top secret surveillance reports from White House officials. 31 00:02:20,890 --> 00:02:25,390 President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, is looking for legal 32 00:02:25,390 --> 00:02:31,170 protection from prosecution in exchange for his testimony about any possible collusion 33 00:02:31,170 --> 00:02:36,580 between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. And three former Trump aides - former 34 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:41,650 campaign chairman Paul Manafort, former advisor Roger Stone, and former policy advisor 35 00:02:41,650 --> 00:02:46,930 Carter Page - have agreed to testify without the promise of immunity. 36 00:02:46,930 --> 00:02:51,480 An immunity deal, of course, is not a sign of guilt, but it would make it all but 37 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,810 impossible for the Justice Department to prosecute Flynn. Lots to unpack here, and 38 00:02:56,810 --> 00:03:01,850 let's begin with Flynn, who President Trump fired last month because he misled Vice 39 00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:06,640 President Pence about his contact with Russia's ambassador to the U.S. during the 40 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:12,370 transition. Kelly, what is the response on Capitol Hill amid all this controversy? 41 00:03:12,370 --> 00:03:15,920 KELLY O'DONNELL: Well, on the issue of immunity, there's a bit of surprise because I'm 42 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:20,590 told that the attorney for General Flynn did not expressly ask for immunity in his 43 00:03:20,590 --> 00:03:24,870 letters, but did so in a public statement. So, like so much of what we've seen in 44 00:03:24,870 --> 00:03:29,290 this, there is kind of the real track and then there's the theatrical track. And so 45 00:03:29,290 --> 00:03:33,210 there's resistance to the idea. Early in the investigation, people aren't sure yet 46 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:37,700 what the right questions are, and would General Flynn be able to bring something to 47 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:42,510 this investigation. Also, concerns about getting in the way of what the FBI may be doing. 48 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:47,110 Tonight I'm told that Adam Schiff, the Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, 49 00:03:47,110 --> 00:03:51,120 spent about 10 minutes with the president - imagine being a fly on the wall for that 50 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,580 conversation - just after he, too, saw the same information that Devin Nunes, the 51 00:03:56,580 --> 00:04:01,050 Republican chair, was able to see. A lot of tension on that committee. That's one of 52 00:04:01,050 --> 00:04:05,270 the problems in the Flynn investigation. That tension has made it hard to move forward. 53 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:09,430 I'm told they want to get back on track next week. What did they talk about? 54 00:04:09,430 --> 00:04:14,210 I'm told it was more about infrastructure and legislative things, and not so much about 55 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:18,350 Russia - which would be appropriate, given the fact that Adam Schiff's been talking a lot 56 00:04:18,350 --> 00:04:21,740 about trying to keep separate from the White House that investigation. 57 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:25,050 ROBERT COSTA: Is that possible, though, Dan? Can they - can the White House escape the 58 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:29,810 shadow? Flynn came out of nowhere on Thursday night with this statement that he's seeking immunity. 59 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:33,330 DAN BALZ: I don't see any way that they can escape it. I mean, they're in it for the 60 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:37,130 long haul whether they want to be or not. I mean, the House investigation, we'll have 61 00:04:37,130 --> 00:04:41,020 to see what happens on that. I mean, that's been badly compromised by what Chairman 62 00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:44,700 Nunes did in going to the White House and looking at these documents without sharing 63 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:47,350 them with the members of his committee. 64 00:04:47,350 --> 00:04:50,430 The Senate investigation, as we know, is in the opening stages. 65 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:54,580 I mean, the hearing they had this week was quite interesting and provocative, but it 66 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:58,630 wasn't anywhere really close to the meat of what they are trying to get to the bottom of. 67 00:04:58,630 --> 00:05:03,260 And they - both the chair and the ranking Democrat on the committee have made clear that 68 00:05:03,260 --> 00:05:07,630 they recognize that one of the questions they have to try to get an answer to is whether 69 00:05:07,630 --> 00:05:12,220 there was, in fact, collusion or cooperation between the Trump campaign or Trump 70 00:05:12,220 --> 00:05:16,520 associates and the Russians. So there's all of that, and then you have the FBI. 71 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,330 I mean, we are - we are months and months and months away from it. And the White House 72 00:05:20,330 --> 00:05:26,000 has compounded the problem by now their handling of what they did with Devin Nunes. 73 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,460 I mean, they have now opened a new front on the investigation, which is what did White 74 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:34,020 House officials do, why did they do it, who else knew about it. 75 00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:37,390 All of that still remains to be figured out. 76 00:05:37,390 --> 00:05:41,600 ROBERT COSTA: Ed, when we look at the congressional sphere, it's complicated. 77 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,650 You have Devin Nunes, who has all of these questions over him about his relationship with 78 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,260 the White House. But then you have Senator Burr from North Carolina working with the 79 00:05:50,260 --> 00:05:54,200 Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. They seem to be taking a different kind of 80 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,890 approach than the House Intelligence Committee when it comes to all of these questions. 81 00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:01,580 ED O'KEEFE: After they had their news conference this week, the word I kept seeing was 82 00:06:01,580 --> 00:06:05,520 adults - finally, there are adults in charge. They were reminding people that there 83 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:11,530 are adults leading an investigation on the Hill. And it is by all accounts a much more 84 00:06:11,530 --> 00:06:16,430 serious, substantive, and secretive investigation. These senators are not talking. Marco 85 00:06:16,430 --> 00:06:20,070 Rubio, who's a member of the committee, says he spends eight hours a week on this stuff. 86 00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:24,230 That's a significant amount of time for a senator to be devoting to anything, other than 87 00:06:24,230 --> 00:06:28,530 fundraising maybe. (Laughter.) You know, and the fact that they signaled that they have 88 00:06:28,530 --> 00:06:32,700 seven investigators on this when they only had three investigating the Benghazi situation 89 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:37,970 a few years ago, plus that those investigators now have clearance to see the most sensitive 90 00:06:37,970 --> 00:06:41,740 information that anyone in the government ever sees, shows you how seriously they're 91 00:06:41,740 --> 00:06:47,770 taking it. And if that investigation can be maintained and can remain free of partisanship, 92 00:06:47,770 --> 00:06:52,090 it probably will emerge as the most significant one next to the FBI investigation. 93 00:06:52,090 --> 00:06:55,840 ROBERT COSTA: Alexis, I saw you sitting up there in the White House Briefing Room asking 94 00:06:55,840 --> 00:07:00,410 tough questions of Sean Spicer, the press secretary, and it seemed like every question 95 00:07:00,410 --> 00:07:06,070 today was about Russia, was about General Flynn and his immunity request. 96 00:07:06,070 --> 00:07:09,850 How is the White House handling this? What's their strategy? 97 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:14,610 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, as Dan foreshadowed, not well. And why I say that is because 98 00:07:14,610 --> 00:07:18,100 the White House has had two narratives going at the same time. 99 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:23,090 One is there's nothing to see here about Russia and collusion, and the other part of it 100 00:07:23,090 --> 00:07:28,260 is let's all look over here at this distraction, which is supposedly not about Russia at 101 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:33,610 all, and directing us to the president's team's own investigations. 102 00:07:33,610 --> 00:07:38,690 So today what was interesting to me, listening to this agonized discussion about what 103 00:07:38,690 --> 00:07:43,950 Chairman Nunes has, who gave it to him, what Schiff was going to see, and the fact that 104 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:49,170 that is in essence a distraction, is where do they think this is going to go if the 105 00:07:49,170 --> 00:07:53,910 president day after day from the podium, his spokesperson, is showing that the president 106 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:58,410 wants to be the prosecutor, he wants to be the judge, he wants to be the investigator? 107 00:07:58,410 --> 00:08:04,510 And that, as Dan was suggesting, keeps it alive beyond what any attorney, White House 108 00:08:04,510 --> 00:08:07,480 staff would have ever advised a president to do. 109 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,960 KELLY O'DONNELL: We've all covered presidents who would stay so far away - 110 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,890 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: So far away. 111 00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:15,510 KELLY O'DONNELL: - from any kind of investigation, and this president uses such 112 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:18,640 evocative words. "Witch hunt" is such a strong word. 113 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:24,060 "Immunity," that sounded so great today on Twitter, was the absolute last thing that you 114 00:08:24,060 --> 00:08:29,660 could ever request when he was a candidate. Not understanding how potent that is now, 115 00:08:29,660 --> 00:08:33,640 and maybe not caring - that he is of the moment, and he's trying to drive a narrative 116 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,740 about this, seems to still be protective of Flynn in some way. 117 00:08:37,740 --> 00:08:41,320 ROBERT COSTA: Is there a political cost for the president's response? During the 118 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,100 campaign, he railed against Secretary Clinton and her associates for their immunity in 119 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:50,650 that investigation with the FBI, but now he seems to be embracing the concept, Dan. 120 00:08:50,650 --> 00:08:54,610 DAN BALZ: Well, I think he's already paid a political price for it. I mean, if you 121 00:08:54,610 --> 00:08:58,300 look at his approval ratings, which - they started out low, lower than any incoming 122 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:01,920 president. They're lower now than they were when he came into office. Now, that could 123 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,400 be for a variety of reasons, because there have been other missteps along the way. 124 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,710 But there's no doubt that when he has done what he did, particularly the accusation that 125 00:09:09,710 --> 00:09:15,410 former President Obama illegally in essence wiretapped Trump Tower, or ordered an illegal 126 00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:19,840 wiretap of Trump Tower - I was talking to a Democratic pollster this week who said that 127 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,570 broke through. There was a lot of this that hasn't really broken through with the 128 00:09:23,570 --> 00:09:27,190 general public. That broke through. And it has caused them no end of grief. 129 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:32,130 I mean, they - because of that tweet, they have gone to great lengths to try to prove 130 00:09:32,130 --> 00:09:36,720 what apparently cannot be proved. And they have gotten themselves into this problem 131 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,860 with Devin Nunes now and the other problems in the White House. So the president is 132 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:45,100 creating - is inflicting this wound on himself and his administration. 133 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:49,470 ED O'KEEFE: And it is a bacteria, Bob, that has spread across the Capitol as Congress 134 00:09:49,470 --> 00:09:54,500 tries to do anything else but this. It overshadowed the confirmation hearings for 135 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:58,950 Neil Gorsuch. It played out while Republicans stumbled on health care last week. It is 136 00:09:58,950 --> 00:10:04,050 tying up the ability to get a spending bill done by the end of April, because this festers. 137 00:10:04,050 --> 00:10:08,650 And we go a few days with nothing, and then suddenly Devin Nunes or Adam Schiff run to a 138 00:10:08,650 --> 00:10:12,630 microphone and announce some new surprise that we didn't know about that totally upends 139 00:10:12,630 --> 00:10:18,500 things yet again. And I call it a bacteria and not a virus because a virus takes time 140 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:22,890 to cure itself. A bacteria can be cured very quickly with medicine. 141 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:26,930 And I think there are so many Republicans I've talked to privately up there who say: If 142 00:10:26,930 --> 00:10:32,660 only they would shut up and get out of the way or get everything out there and let the 143 00:10:32,660 --> 00:10:37,580 investigators deal with it and move on, then, you know, maybe we'd be able to move on 144 00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:40,560 and focus more substantively on legislation. 145 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,770 ROBERT COSTA: The challenge for the Republican Party - and when I was at the Capitol 146 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:46,860 this week I encountered the same challenges and reservations among many Republicans. 147 00:10:46,860 --> 00:10:50,620 They said: You have the controversy with Devin Nunes, the Intel chairman in the House. 148 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:52,980 You have the Flynn immunity situation. 149 00:10:52,980 --> 00:10:56,420 But you also have this broader Russia question and interference. 150 00:10:56,420 --> 00:10:58,810 KELLY O'DONNELL: A serious and enduring problem, right? 151 00:10:58,810 --> 00:11:01,950 ROBERT COSTA: It's enduring. And let's remember, the Senate Intelligence Committee 152 00:11:01,950 --> 00:11:05,470 held their first public hearing into Russia. And we learned Secretary Clinton was 153 00:11:05,470 --> 00:11:09,030 just one of the people they targeted with misinformation. 154 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:13,870 Florida Senator Marco Rubio said his presidential campaign staff was targeted twice. 155 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:16,560 The testimony we heard was alarming. 156 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:21,090 We learned about the size, the scope, and the sophistication of Russia's cyberwarfare 157 00:11:21,090 --> 00:11:26,770 operation, that is believed to have employed 15,000 hackers and cyber specialists who 158 00:11:26,770 --> 00:11:31,070 disseminated disinformation during the 2016 campaign. 159 00:11:31,070 --> 00:11:35,150 CLINTON WATTS: (From video.) They were in full swing during both the Republican and 160 00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:38,630 Democratic primary season - and may have helped sink the hopes of candidates more hostile 161 00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:41,920 to Russian interests long before the field narrowed. 162 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,580 ROBERT COSTA: Ed, you paid close attention to the Senate hearing. 163 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:48,970 What did we learn, and how is this Russia question of interference going to continue to 164 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:52,430 hover long after, perhaps, some of the these political dramas pass? 165 00:11:52,430 --> 00:11:54,760 ED O'KEEFE: Well, this explains why Jeb Bush lost. 166 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,970 Now we know, because he was targeted by the Russians. No. 167 00:11:56,970 --> 00:11:58,880 ROBERT COSTA: Explain what you mean by that. 168 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,880 ED O'KEEFE: Well, no, because the experts said that Bush, Rubio and other candidates, 169 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,650 plus Clinton of course, were in one way or another hacked or attacked, in essence, by 170 00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:13,960 these Russian hackers. And what I found most interesting with the Rubio situation is it 171 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:19,950 now perhaps explains why last summer he was urging caution among Republicans to sort of 172 00:12:19,950 --> 00:12:23,730 say, hey, if the shoe were on the other foot you would feel much differently about this. 173 00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:27,570 And this suggests now that maybe he knew as an Intelligence Committee member last summer 174 00:12:27,570 --> 00:12:31,340 that this had gone on, and was aware that his own campaign had been targeted. 175 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:35,750 But it was quite revealing, and I think is the beginning of now really starting to put 176 00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:40,290 together the pieces of what Russia has been doing, is still doing, and could do in the 177 00:12:40,290 --> 00:12:47,010 future. And I think sort of helped snap this back into a little more serious focus for 178 00:12:47,010 --> 00:12:50,930 lawmakers, especially, who had been obsessed with what Nunes had been doing. 179 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:53,260 ROBERT COSTA: Let's get - let's talk about Nunes for a second. 180 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:55,870 This is someone who just seems to be on television every second. 181 00:12:55,870 --> 00:12:59,120 And he has become a top ally of President Trump. 182 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,560 But is he hobbled in any way by the way this has all unfolded, with his visit to the 183 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:07,310 White House to meet with these officials about intelligence information, Kelly? 184 00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:11,050 KELLY O'DONNELL: Well, I'm told that House Speaker Paul Ryan is still fully confident in 185 00:13:11,050 --> 00:13:17,730 Nunes in this role. At the same time, there are questions from others in the conference 186 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:22,610 about how he had handled this. He's an affable person who will answer your questions in 187 00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:26,910 the hallways. That maybe should be a red flag right there because - not that he's giving 188 00:13:26,910 --> 00:13:31,170 away secrets, but he's willing to engage. And sometimes that can be treacherous. 189 00:13:31,170 --> 00:13:34,940 Today he gave an interview back in his home district where he talked about the fact that 190 00:13:34,940 --> 00:13:39,200 some of the names that have been circulated of National Security Council staffers may not 191 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,210 have been his source, but might have been someone who was aware of his presence on the 192 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:48,620 White House grounds. That's adding a big more oxygen, which is maybe not the thing that 193 00:13:48,620 --> 00:13:54,090 he should be doing. While he might be trying to explain or answer, he opens a new pathway. 194 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:58,230 And so I think there is frustration among other Republicans. But we know that to topple 195 00:13:58,230 --> 00:14:02,090 a committee chairman would be so significant. So we're not there yet. 196 00:14:02,090 --> 00:14:04,710 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: One of the interesting things about the congressman, when he came to 197 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:10,210 the White House, was how quick he was to, again, repeat that there is no evidence that 198 00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:14,500 Barack Obama or the Obama team had wiretapped Trump Tower. 199 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:19,560 But then he wandered into this discussion with great preparation in terms of what he 200 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,770 intended to do, not preparation in terms of what he was saying, that he was concerned 201 00:14:23,770 --> 00:14:27,880 about this idea that there was surveillance that the United States is doing and is 202 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:34,850 incidentally picking up innocent Americans in this context. And this was the - really 203 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:39,100 the meat of the concern. The White House is also trying to say: This is what people 204 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:43,900 should be up in arms about. The leaking, not what Russia is doing in our democracy. 205 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:49,130 And if you listen at the White House, and we're repeatedly asking what is the president 206 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:53,770 of the United States doing to respond to Director Comey's evidence, testimony that this 207 00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:58,230 is continuing now and that it is continuing not only in the United States but in Europe 208 00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:02,240 by Russia. And you just get kind of silenced. 209 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,750 ROBERT COSTA: Because Nunes, Alexis, shares the president's view, according to all of 210 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:11,110 their advisors and associates, that there's a so-called Deep State. And Nunes articulates 211 00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:15,300 this a lot, that there's this Deep State of current intelligence officials and former 212 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:19,470 officials, in their view, who are leaking against the White House. And this perhaps 213 00:15:19,470 --> 00:15:24,110 explains the "witch hunt" tweet by the president and the whole response by the White House. 214 00:15:24,110 --> 00:15:27,530 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: But remember, one of the things that we have to not forget is on 215 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:32,140 March 4th the tweet about the wiretapping is what set off an entire government looking 216 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:35,380 for the evidence to support the tweet. 217 00:15:35,380 --> 00:15:40,760 And there has been nothing that I have seen or heard to suggest that this effort inside 218 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,280 the White House to search through intelligence is anything other than that. 219 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,310 KELLY O'DONNELL: Perhaps just the Michael Flynn quotes that unsealed his conversations 220 00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:54,670 with the Russian ambassador is a bit mixed in there as well. But you do get the sense 221 00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:58,670 that there is a search mission to find something that would support the tweet. 222 00:15:58,670 --> 00:16:01,630 ROBERT COSTA: Everyone wants to learn more about what General Flynn has said. 223 00:16:01,630 --> 00:16:04,820 I love the line from the lawyer's statement for General Flynn, saying: He has a 224 00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:09,080 compelling story, quite the story to tell. We'll see if he's able to tell it. 225 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,410 But the cloud of Russian intrigue isn't the only thing distracting the White House. 226 00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:17,990 The failure of the GOP's replacement health care plan last Friday has left the president 227 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:23,630 frustrated, especially with the House Freedom Caucus. He put them on notice, as he does, 228 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:29,200 on Twitter. Trump wrote, "The Freedom Caucus will hurt the entire Republican agenda if 229 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:35,570 they don't get on the team, & fast. We must fight them, & Dems, in 2018!" Ed, members of 230 00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:39,940 the Freedom Caucus fired right back, saying they're doing the will of their constituents. 231 00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:43,240 ED O'KEEFE: They did. I brought some of these quotes, because I think it's illustrative 232 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,060 of what they were doing. Scott DesJarlais from Tennessee, very conservative guy, told 233 00:16:47,060 --> 00:16:49,840 Roll Call, "In my district, we're very conservative. 234 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,840 So if he gets me out of office, he's going to get someone more conservative than me." 235 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,570 Trent Franks from Arizona, one of the most ardent conservatives in the House, said, "If 236 00:16:57,570 --> 00:17:02,580 somebody can get to the right of me in the primary, God bless them." And that's the 237 00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:06,750 problem that the president is potentially setting himself up for, that if you think these 238 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:10,580 guys are inflexible just wait till you see the alternative. 239 00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:13,550 ROBERT COSTA: But I'll tell you, the White House is defiant. I spoke to one official 240 00:17:13,550 --> 00:17:17,890 who had this quote that they're going to send Air Force One, Dan, down to the districts 241 00:17:17,890 --> 00:17:23,360 of the Freedom Caucus. And they said nothing's more clarifying than the smell of jet fuel. (Laughter.) 242 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:28,840 DAN BALZ: I talked to a couple of Republicans right after the bill fell a week ago. 243 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,150 And these are people who used to be in the House, but no longer are. 244 00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:39,110 Their view was that the president would be smart to literally target one or two of them 245 00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:43,860 and, you know, give them a lesson in what presidential power could be. 246 00:17:43,860 --> 00:17:49,580 So there's some view that there ought to be a price paid for defying a president in his 247 00:17:49,580 --> 00:17:56,980 first, what was it then, 65 days, or whatever it was. But I mean, the reaction of them 248 00:17:56,980 --> 00:18:03,410 is indicative of what's happening. He drives them together. He makes them more resistant. 249 00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:08,700 He hasn't found a way to appeal to them. And he couldn't cajole them on the health care 250 00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,670 bill. And now it's not clear he's going to be able to threaten them to come his way. 251 00:18:12,670 --> 00:18:16,020 KELLY O'DONNELL: One theory I heard was that while he's naming some of these members, 252 00:18:16,020 --> 00:18:20,080 the prominent ones, that perhaps the tweet message is really intended for some of the 253 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,170 noes who are less well-known, that not wanting to incur the wrath of the president. 254 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:29,620 I also heard the Air Force One strategy, touch down in the district when the member's not 255 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:32,770 there. But they are showing themselves to be the fearless caucus more than the Freedom 256 00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:36,470 Caucus. They are impervious to the president's threats. 257 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:39,660 But what we don't yet know is what will happen when they go home. 258 00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:42,510 ROBERT COSTA: Yeah. Is the health care coming back, Alexis? 259 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:44,800 Is this actually going to be revived? 260 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,650 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, I think that it would be impossible to imagine that happening 261 00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:54,270 right now because there was such quick eagerness on the part of all the Republicans who 262 00:18:54,270 --> 00:18:59,580 felt so stung by this to move on. Paul Ryan, the speaker, sounded that way. 263 00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:04,170 The president sounded that way. His first initial reaction to that was to move on, after 264 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,100 spending three long weeks working on it. 265 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:12,150 And it just - there doesn't - no one I have interviewed has described it as a realistic 266 00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:17,040 possibility, although what some Republicans have said is that they so - this is really 267 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,770 getting into the weeds - but they so wanted the revenues out of the health care to keep 268 00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:26,810 it going, keep it on the stove, at least to keep talking about how this is important to 269 00:19:26,810 --> 00:19:30,480 tax reform as an inducement to these arch-conservatives. 270 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,740 ED O'KEEFE: And the raw politics - the political reality is that both parties would love 271 00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:39,130 to run another midterm election next year on health care, and to some extent even 272 00:19:39,130 --> 00:19:44,300 immigration - two of the largest, most tricky - or trickiest issues domestically to deal 273 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:49,080 with. They are good in election years. If they don't do anything, at least it's out 274 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,970 there. And the president has signaled he will blame Democrats, because it is their law. 275 00:19:52,970 --> 00:19:56,480 Democrats, the Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, told me this week: We have ideas. 276 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,610 We are ready to talk to them. We will present them so long as Republicans start 277 00:20:00,610 --> 00:20:03,460 to back off this idea that this law is going to be repealed. 278 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:06,170 DAN BALZ: But realistically, the Democrats are not going to play ball with them. 279 00:20:06,170 --> 00:20:08,180 ED O'KEEFE: Probably not, right. 280 00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:11,370 DAN BALZ: I interviewed Tom Perez, the new chairman of the Democratic National Committee 281 00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:14,690 this week. And I said to him: Would you all work with the president on health care? 282 00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:18,090 And he said, I would be happy to work with the president to get a public option into the 283 00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:21,300 Affordable Care Act. (Laughter.) So those are - those are the kinds of lines - 284 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:24,140 ED O'KEEFE: They're over here. They're never going to come together, yeah. 285 00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:27,610 ROBERT COSTA: So that was a showdown. (Laughter.) There was another showdown, and 286 00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:31,390 that's brewing right now in Congress between congressional Republicans and the White 287 00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:36,810 House over a stopgap budget bill to keep the government operating after late April. 288 00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:41,690 President Trump, here's what he wants: $33 billion in new defense and border spending to 289 00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:45,700 help pay for a border wall. Eighteen billion dollars would be cut from health, 290 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:49,890 education and labor programs to offset some of that increased defense spending and pay 291 00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:54,360 for part of the wall. Democrats and Republicans, however - conservative Republicans - 292 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:00,920 are rejecting the proposal on fiscal grounds. Kelly, we're facing a potential government 293 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,790 shutdown if Republicans and Democrats can't get this appropriations package through. 294 00:21:05,790 --> 00:21:09,310 KELLY O'DONNELL: We've lived through a few of them. We know what those late nights 295 00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:12,890 are like. And what I'm being told right now is they want to turn the drama down, 296 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:16,910 especially after what happened with what was supposed to be the signature issue, the 297 00:21:16,910 --> 00:21:20,810 easier one to coalesce around. To deal with something like this, they want to just 298 00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:24,900 quiet things. I am assured - and we've heard these before - no government shutdown. 299 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:28,320 What's different now, I do think the pain of what happened with the past government 300 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,370 shutdown and these brink moments is a real pain that has been seen at the ballot box and 301 00:21:33,370 --> 00:21:38,650 drives the phone calls to Capitol Hill, which are a potent way of getting to Congress 302 00:21:38,650 --> 00:21:42,950 members. But I think that the conversations are going on about what to present. 303 00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:47,760 A lot of questions about how they can fashion a bill that will be acceptable. 304 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,990 I think the border wall money, off the table. 305 00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:54,130 ROBERT COSTA: So the Democrats don't want the border wall to be included in the package, 306 00:21:54,130 --> 00:21:57,570 Ed. And I want to get, Alexis, your take on the White House's view of all this. 307 00:21:57,570 --> 00:22:00,480 But, Ed, you spoke to Minority Leader Chuck Schumer this week. 308 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,570 Are Democrats really going to work with Republicans to keep the government open and get 309 00:22:03,570 --> 00:22:06,670 this spending package done, or is it going to all fall apart? 310 00:22:06,670 --> 00:22:09,780 ED O'KEEFE: If it doesn't have the border wall money, if there's nothing about defunding 311 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:14,980 Planned Parenthood, if they don't ask for money to hire what they call a deportation 312 00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:19,450 force at ICE, then yes, Democrats will go along with it because those are - and, you 313 00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:24,220 know, no going back to sequestration-style spending cuts and whatnot, as long as 314 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:27,770 everything's on parity - and it is. And it's because Republicans know they need 315 00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:30,980 Democrats in the Senate. They're probably going to need some of them in the House 316 00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:34,440 to offset the Freedom Caucus because of the price of all this, and they want to get 317 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,470 this done as fast as they can when they get back from Easter because, let's face it, 318 00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:40,310 they're probably going to spend two weeks getting yelled at back home and they need 319 00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:43,160 to come back quickly and demonstrate some progress. 320 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,520 ROBERT COSTA: But, Alexis, to get Democrats, you got to court Democrats. The president has 321 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,730 a trust gap with many top Democrats going back to the birther issue and so many other fronts. 322 00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:55,200 ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, one of the things that I heard this week was - because we were 323 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,000 surprised to hear President Trump. Initially his blame was the Democrats, and then 324 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,260 he came out a day later and changed his mind - maybe I should talk to Democrats, right? 325 00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:07,680 But there's some method to that, because he thinks he is going to need some Democrats on 326 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,540 some other big things, right? He's hoping to be able to court some of their support 327 00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:16,700 on some other things that he would like to accomplish. But in this particular case, 328 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:20,840 Democrats have signaled yes, they'd like to talk to him about their agenda. 329 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,610 The White House is saying we'd like to talk to them if they want to work with us on our 330 00:23:24,610 --> 00:23:29,090 agenda exactly the way we have it. And so there is still this definite clash. 331 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:33,480 ED O'KEEFE: And it is exactly that approach - here's what we're doing, get in line, 332 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,480 Democrats - that Schumer said they will not tolerate and participate in at all. 333 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,810 DAN BALZ: And it's a little difficult when he tweets let's - we have to fight both the 334 00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:45,710 Democrats and the Freedom Caucus in 2018, and the White House continues to make 335 00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:52,440 accusations about the Obama administration and what they may have done to try to increase 336 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,690 the awareness of the surveillance or what the Trump people were doing. 337 00:23:56,690 --> 00:24:02,320 Everything they're doing goes in the opposite direction of finding a way to get together. 338 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,040 ROBERT COSTA: Thanks, everybody. What a week. And welcome, Kelly, to Washington Week. 339 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,910 (Laughter.) It's great to have you here. Our conversation continues online, as ever, 340 00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:16,070 on the Washington Week Extra, where we'll talk about the shakeup at the Democratic 341 00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:20,280 National Committee, where the new chairman has asked the entire staff to resign. 342 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,850 Plus, why Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner, may be the ultimate power couple 343 00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:30,840 in Washington. You can watch that later tonight at PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. 344 00:24:30,840 --> 00:25:04,560 I'm Robert Costa. Thanks so much for watching, and enjoy your weekend.