WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.110 align:start ROBERT COSTA: The investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election gets 00:05.110 --> 00:10.630 align:start turned inside out. I'm Robert Costa, and we'll have the latest on the federal probes. 00:10.630 --> 00:16.200 align:start Plus, why President Trump has declared war on leaders of hardline conservatives, tonight 00:16.200 --> 00:22.970 align:start on Washington Week. President Trump's fired national security adviser, Michael Flynn, 00:22.970 --> 00:29.320 align:start wants to make a deal. The retired three-star general is offering to testify about 00:29.320 --> 00:34.980 align:start alleged Russian meddling in last year's election, but only if he gets immunity. 00:34.980 --> 00:40.690 align:start Flynn had a different view of immunity last year, when Secretary Hillary Clinton's aides 00:40.690 --> 00:43.830 align:start were questioned about her email server. 00:43.830 --> 00:46.700 align:start GENERAL MICHAEL FLYNN: (From video.) When you are given immunity, that means that you've 00:46.700 --> 00:48.660 align:start probably committed a crime. 00:48.660 --> 00:50.790 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Ditto for then-candidate Donald Trump. 00:50.790 --> 00:55.740 align:start DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) And if you're not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for, right? 00:55.740 --> 01:00.090 align:start ROBERT COSTA: But today President Trump supported the idea of immunity for Flynn, 01:00.090 --> 01:04.910 align:start calling the congressional inquiry a "witch hunt." Meanwhile, the Senate Intelligence 01:04.910 --> 01:10.600 align:start Committee held an eye-opening hearing into Russia's interference in American democracy. 01:10.600 --> 01:13.620 align:start CLINTON WATTS (Foreign Policy Research Institute): (From video.) Follow the trail of 01:13.620 --> 01:16.950 align:start dead Russians. There's been more dead Russians in the past three months that are tied 01:16.950 --> 01:20.840 align:start to this investigation who have assets in banks all over the world. 01:20.840 --> 01:24.340 align:start They are dropping dead even in Western countries. 01:24.340 --> 01:28.120 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And we learned that White House staffers secretly provided House 01:28.120 --> 01:32.700 align:start Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes with information to support the president's 01:32.700 --> 01:38.610 align:start claim that he was wiretapped by former President Obama. We cover it all with 01:38.610 --> 01:45.270 align:start Dan Balz of The Washington Post, Kelly O'Donnell of NBC News, Alexis Simendinger of 01:45.270 --> 01:51.420 align:start Real Clear Politics, and Ed O'Keefe of The Washington Post and CBS News. 01:51.420 --> 01:57.700 align:start ANNOUNCER: Celebrating 50 years, this is Washington Week. 01:57.700 --> 02:02.800 align:start Once again, from Washington, Robert Costa of The Washington Post. 02:02.800 --> 02:07.610 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. The investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 02:07.610 --> 02:11.430 align:start election continue to plague the Trump administration. 02:11.430 --> 02:16.310 align:start House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes is under scrutiny for reportedly 02:16.310 --> 02:20.890 align:start receiving top secret surveillance reports from White House officials. 02:20.890 --> 02:25.390 align:start President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, is looking for legal 02:25.390 --> 02:31.170 align:start protection from prosecution in exchange for his testimony about any possible collusion 02:31.170 --> 02:36.580 align:start between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. And three former Trump aides - former 02:36.580 --> 02:41.650 align:start campaign chairman Paul Manafort, former advisor Roger Stone, and former policy advisor 02:41.650 --> 02:46.930 align:start Carter Page - have agreed to testify without the promise of immunity. 02:46.930 --> 02:51.480 align:start An immunity deal, of course, is not a sign of guilt, but it would make it all but 02:51.480 --> 02:56.810 align:start impossible for the Justice Department to prosecute Flynn. Lots to unpack here, and 02:56.810 --> 03:01.850 align:start let's begin with Flynn, who President Trump fired last month because he misled Vice 03:01.850 --> 03:06.640 align:start President Pence about his contact with Russia's ambassador to the U.S. during the 03:06.640 --> 03:12.370 align:start transition. Kelly, what is the response on Capitol Hill amid all this controversy? 03:12.370 --> 03:15.920 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: Well, on the issue of immunity, there's a bit of surprise because I'm 03:15.920 --> 03:20.590 align:start told that the attorney for General Flynn did not expressly ask for immunity in his 03:20.590 --> 03:24.870 align:start letters, but did so in a public statement. So, like so much of what we've seen in 03:24.870 --> 03:29.290 align:start this, there is kind of the real track and then there's the theatrical track. And so 03:29.290 --> 03:33.210 align:start there's resistance to the idea. Early in the investigation, people aren't sure yet 03:33.210 --> 03:37.700 align:start what the right questions are, and would General Flynn be able to bring something to 03:37.700 --> 03:42.510 align:start this investigation. Also, concerns about getting in the way of what the FBI may be doing. 03:42.510 --> 03:47.110 align:start Tonight I'm told that Adam Schiff, the Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, 03:47.110 --> 03:51.120 align:start spent about 10 minutes with the president - imagine being a fly on the wall for that 03:51.120 --> 03:56.580 align:start conversation - just after he, too, saw the same information that Devin Nunes, the 03:56.580 --> 04:01.050 align:start Republican chair, was able to see. A lot of tension on that committee. That's one of 04:01.050 --> 04:05.270 align:start the problems in the Flynn investigation. That tension has made it hard to move forward. 04:05.270 --> 04:09.430 align:start I'm told they want to get back on track next week. What did they talk about? 04:09.430 --> 04:14.210 align:start I'm told it was more about infrastructure and legislative things, and not so much about 04:14.210 --> 04:18.350 align:start Russia - which would be appropriate, given the fact that Adam Schiff's been talking a lot 04:18.350 --> 04:21.740 align:start about trying to keep separate from the White House that investigation. 04:21.740 --> 04:25.050 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Is that possible, though, Dan? Can they - can the White House escape the 04:25.050 --> 04:29.810 align:start shadow? Flynn came out of nowhere on Thursday night with this statement that he's seeking immunity. 04:29.810 --> 04:33.330 align:start DAN BALZ: I don't see any way that they can escape it. I mean, they're in it for the 04:33.330 --> 04:37.130 align:start long haul whether they want to be or not. I mean, the House investigation, we'll have 04:37.130 --> 04:41.020 align:start to see what happens on that. I mean, that's been badly compromised by what Chairman 04:41.020 --> 04:44.700 align:start Nunes did in going to the White House and looking at these documents without sharing 04:44.700 --> 04:47.350 align:start them with the members of his committee. 04:47.350 --> 04:50.430 align:start The Senate investigation, as we know, is in the opening stages. 04:50.430 --> 04:54.580 align:start I mean, the hearing they had this week was quite interesting and provocative, but it 04:54.580 --> 04:58.630 align:start wasn't anywhere really close to the meat of what they are trying to get to the bottom of. 04:58.630 --> 05:03.260 align:start And they - both the chair and the ranking Democrat on the committee have made clear that 05:03.260 --> 05:07.630 align:start they recognize that one of the questions they have to try to get an answer to is whether 05:07.630 --> 05:12.220 align:start there was, in fact, collusion or cooperation between the Trump campaign or Trump 05:12.220 --> 05:16.520 align:start associates and the Russians. So there's all of that, and then you have the FBI. 05:16.520 --> 05:20.330 align:start I mean, we are - we are months and months and months away from it. And the White House 05:20.330 --> 05:26.000 align:start has compounded the problem by now their handling of what they did with Devin Nunes. 05:26.000 --> 05:30.460 align:start I mean, they have now opened a new front on the investigation, which is what did White 05:30.460 --> 05:34.020 align:start House officials do, why did they do it, who else knew about it. 05:34.020 --> 05:37.390 align:start All of that still remains to be figured out. 05:37.390 --> 05:41.600 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Ed, when we look at the congressional sphere, it's complicated. 05:41.600 --> 05:46.650 align:start You have Devin Nunes, who has all of these questions over him about his relationship with 05:46.650 --> 05:50.260 align:start the White House. But then you have Senator Burr from North Carolina working with the 05:50.260 --> 05:54.200 align:start Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. They seem to be taking a different kind of 05:54.200 --> 05:57.890 align:start approach than the House Intelligence Committee when it comes to all of these questions. 05:57.890 --> 06:01.580 align:start ED O'KEEFE: After they had their news conference this week, the word I kept seeing was 06:01.580 --> 06:05.520 align:start adults - finally, there are adults in charge. They were reminding people that there 06:05.520 --> 06:11.530 align:start are adults leading an investigation on the Hill. And it is by all accounts a much more 06:11.530 --> 06:16.430 align:start serious, substantive, and secretive investigation. These senators are not talking. Marco 06:16.430 --> 06:20.070 align:start Rubio, who's a member of the committee, says he spends eight hours a week on this stuff. 06:20.070 --> 06:24.230 align:start That's a significant amount of time for a senator to be devoting to anything, other than 06:24.230 --> 06:28.530 align:start fundraising maybe. (Laughter.) You know, and the fact that they signaled that they have 06:28.530 --> 06:32.700 align:start seven investigators on this when they only had three investigating the Benghazi situation 06:32.700 --> 06:37.970 align:start a few years ago, plus that those investigators now have clearance to see the most sensitive 06:37.970 --> 06:41.740 align:start information that anyone in the government ever sees, shows you how seriously they're 06:41.740 --> 06:47.770 align:start taking it. And if that investigation can be maintained and can remain free of partisanship, 06:47.770 --> 06:52.090 align:start it probably will emerge as the most significant one next to the FBI investigation. 06:52.090 --> 06:55.840 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Alexis, I saw you sitting up there in the White House Briefing Room asking 06:55.840 --> 07:00.410 align:start tough questions of Sean Spicer, the press secretary, and it seemed like every question 07:00.410 --> 07:06.070 align:start today was about Russia, was about General Flynn and his immunity request. 07:06.070 --> 07:09.850 align:start How is the White House handling this? What's their strategy? 07:09.850 --> 07:14.610 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, as Dan foreshadowed, not well. And why I say that is because 07:14.610 --> 07:18.100 align:start the White House has had two narratives going at the same time. 07:18.100 --> 07:23.090 align:start One is there's nothing to see here about Russia and collusion, and the other part of it 07:23.090 --> 07:28.260 align:start is let's all look over here at this distraction, which is supposedly not about Russia at 07:28.260 --> 07:33.610 align:start all, and directing us to the president's team's own investigations. 07:33.610 --> 07:38.690 align:start So today what was interesting to me, listening to this agonized discussion about what 07:38.690 --> 07:43.950 align:start Chairman Nunes has, who gave it to him, what Schiff was going to see, and the fact that 07:43.950 --> 07:49.170 align:start that is in essence a distraction, is where do they think this is going to go if the 07:49.170 --> 07:53.910 align:start president day after day from the podium, his spokesperson, is showing that the president 07:53.910 --> 07:58.410 align:start wants to be the prosecutor, he wants to be the judge, he wants to be the investigator? 07:58.410 --> 08:04.510 align:start And that, as Dan was suggesting, keeps it alive beyond what any attorney, White House 08:04.510 --> 08:07.480 align:start staff would have ever advised a president to do. 08:07.480 --> 08:09.960 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: We've all covered presidents who would stay so far away - 08:09.960 --> 08:11.890 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: So far away. 08:11.890 --> 08:15.510 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: - from any kind of investigation, and this president uses such 08:15.510 --> 08:18.640 align:start evocative words. "Witch hunt" is such a strong word. 08:18.640 --> 08:24.060 align:start "Immunity," that sounded so great today on Twitter, was the absolute last thing that you 08:24.060 --> 08:29.660 align:start could ever request when he was a candidate. Not understanding how potent that is now, 08:29.660 --> 08:33.640 align:start and maybe not caring - that he is of the moment, and he's trying to drive a narrative 08:33.640 --> 08:37.740 align:start about this, seems to still be protective of Flynn in some way. 08:37.740 --> 08:41.320 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Is there a political cost for the president's response? During the 08:41.320 --> 08:46.100 align:start campaign, he railed against Secretary Clinton and her associates for their immunity in 08:46.100 --> 08:50.650 align:start that investigation with the FBI, but now he seems to be embracing the concept, Dan. 08:50.650 --> 08:54.610 align:start DAN BALZ: Well, I think he's already paid a political price for it. I mean, if you 08:54.610 --> 08:58.300 align:start look at his approval ratings, which - they started out low, lower than any incoming 08:58.300 --> 09:01.920 align:start president. They're lower now than they were when he came into office. Now, that could 09:01.920 --> 09:05.400 align:start be for a variety of reasons, because there have been other missteps along the way. 09:05.400 --> 09:09.710 align:start But there's no doubt that when he has done what he did, particularly the accusation that 09:09.710 --> 09:15.410 align:start former President Obama illegally in essence wiretapped Trump Tower, or ordered an illegal 09:15.410 --> 09:19.840 align:start wiretap of Trump Tower - I was talking to a Democratic pollster this week who said that 09:19.840 --> 09:23.570 align:start broke through. There was a lot of this that hasn't really broken through with the 09:23.570 --> 09:27.190 align:start general public. That broke through. And it has caused them no end of grief. 09:27.190 --> 09:32.130 align:start I mean, they - because of that tweet, they have gone to great lengths to try to prove 09:32.130 --> 09:36.720 align:start what apparently cannot be proved. And they have gotten themselves into this problem 09:36.720 --> 09:40.860 align:start with Devin Nunes now and the other problems in the White House. So the president is 09:40.860 --> 09:45.100 align:start creating - is inflicting this wound on himself and his administration. 09:45.100 --> 09:49.470 align:start ED O'KEEFE: And it is a bacteria, Bob, that has spread across the Capitol as Congress 09:49.470 --> 09:54.500 align:start tries to do anything else but this. It overshadowed the confirmation hearings for 09:54.500 --> 09:58.950 align:start Neil Gorsuch. It played out while Republicans stumbled on health care last week. It is 09:58.950 --> 10:04.050 align:start tying up the ability to get a spending bill done by the end of April, because this festers. 10:04.050 --> 10:08.650 align:start And we go a few days with nothing, and then suddenly Devin Nunes or Adam Schiff run to a 10:08.650 --> 10:12.630 align:start microphone and announce some new surprise that we didn't know about that totally upends 10:12.630 --> 10:18.500 align:start things yet again. And I call it a bacteria and not a virus because a virus takes time 10:18.500 --> 10:22.890 align:start to cure itself. A bacteria can be cured very quickly with medicine. 10:22.890 --> 10:26.930 align:start And I think there are so many Republicans I've talked to privately up there who say: If 10:26.930 --> 10:32.660 align:start only they would shut up and get out of the way or get everything out there and let the 10:32.660 --> 10:37.580 align:start investigators deal with it and move on, then, you know, maybe we'd be able to move on 10:37.580 --> 10:40.560 align:start and focus more substantively on legislation. 10:40.560 --> 10:43.770 align:start ROBERT COSTA: The challenge for the Republican Party - and when I was at the Capitol 10:43.770 --> 10:46.860 align:start this week I encountered the same challenges and reservations among many Republicans. 10:46.860 --> 10:50.620 align:start They said: You have the controversy with Devin Nunes, the Intel chairman in the House. 10:50.620 --> 10:52.980 align:start You have the Flynn immunity situation. 10:52.980 --> 10:56.420 align:start But you also have this broader Russia question and interference. 10:56.420 --> 10:58.810 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: A serious and enduring problem, right? 10:58.810 --> 11:01.950 align:start ROBERT COSTA: It's enduring. And let's remember, the Senate Intelligence Committee 11:01.950 --> 11:05.470 align:start held their first public hearing into Russia. And we learned Secretary Clinton was 11:05.470 --> 11:09.030 align:start just one of the people they targeted with misinformation. 11:09.030 --> 11:13.870 align:start Florida Senator Marco Rubio said his presidential campaign staff was targeted twice. 11:13.870 --> 11:16.560 align:start The testimony we heard was alarming. 11:16.560 --> 11:21.090 align:start We learned about the size, the scope, and the sophistication of Russia's cyberwarfare 11:21.090 --> 11:26.770 align:start operation, that is believed to have employed 15,000 hackers and cyber specialists who 11:26.770 --> 11:31.070 align:start disseminated disinformation during the 2016 campaign. 11:31.070 --> 11:35.150 align:start CLINTON WATTS: (From video.) They were in full swing during both the Republican and 11:35.150 --> 11:38.630 align:start Democratic primary season - and may have helped sink the hopes of candidates more hostile 11:38.630 --> 11:41.920 align:start to Russian interests long before the field narrowed. 11:41.920 --> 11:45.580 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Ed, you paid close attention to the Senate hearing. 11:45.580 --> 11:48.970 align:start What did we learn, and how is this Russia question of interference going to continue to 11:48.970 --> 11:52.430 align:start hover long after, perhaps, some of the these political dramas pass? 11:52.430 --> 11:54.760 align:start ED O'KEEFE: Well, this explains why Jeb Bush lost. 11:54.760 --> 11:56.970 align:start Now we know, because he was targeted by the Russians. No. 11:56.970 --> 11:58.880 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Explain what you mean by that. 11:58.880 --> 12:02.880 align:start ED O'KEEFE: Well, no, because the experts said that Bush, Rubio and other candidates, 12:02.880 --> 12:08.650 align:start plus Clinton of course, were in one way or another hacked or attacked, in essence, by 12:08.650 --> 12:13.960 align:start these Russian hackers. And what I found most interesting with the Rubio situation is it 12:13.960 --> 12:19.950 align:start now perhaps explains why last summer he was urging caution among Republicans to sort of 12:19.950 --> 12:23.730 align:start say, hey, if the shoe were on the other foot you would feel much differently about this. 12:23.730 --> 12:27.570 align:start And this suggests now that maybe he knew as an Intelligence Committee member last summer 12:27.570 --> 12:31.340 align:start that this had gone on, and was aware that his own campaign had been targeted. 12:31.340 --> 12:35.750 align:start But it was quite revealing, and I think is the beginning of now really starting to put 12:35.750 --> 12:40.290 align:start together the pieces of what Russia has been doing, is still doing, and could do in the 12:40.290 --> 12:47.010 align:start future. And I think sort of helped snap this back into a little more serious focus for 12:47.010 --> 12:50.930 align:start lawmakers, especially, who had been obsessed with what Nunes had been doing. 12:50.930 --> 12:53.260 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Let's get - let's talk about Nunes for a second. 12:53.260 --> 12:55.870 align:start This is someone who just seems to be on television every second. 12:55.870 --> 12:59.120 align:start And he has become a top ally of President Trump. 12:59.120 --> 13:03.560 align:start But is he hobbled in any way by the way this has all unfolded, with his visit to the 13:03.560 --> 13:07.310 align:start White House to meet with these officials about intelligence information, Kelly? 13:07.310 --> 13:11.050 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: Well, I'm told that House Speaker Paul Ryan is still fully confident in 13:11.050 --> 13:17.730 align:start Nunes in this role. At the same time, there are questions from others in the conference 13:17.730 --> 13:22.610 align:start about how he had handled this. He's an affable person who will answer your questions in 13:22.610 --> 13:26.910 align:start the hallways. That maybe should be a red flag right there because - not that he's giving 13:26.910 --> 13:31.170 align:start away secrets, but he's willing to engage. And sometimes that can be treacherous. 13:31.170 --> 13:34.940 align:start Today he gave an interview back in his home district where he talked about the fact that 13:34.940 --> 13:39.200 align:start some of the names that have been circulated of National Security Council staffers may not 13:39.200 --> 13:44.210 align:start have been his source, but might have been someone who was aware of his presence on the 13:44.210 --> 13:48.620 align:start White House grounds. That's adding a big more oxygen, which is maybe not the thing that 13:48.620 --> 13:54.090 align:start he should be doing. While he might be trying to explain or answer, he opens a new pathway. 13:54.090 --> 13:58.230 align:start And so I think there is frustration among other Republicans. But we know that to topple 13:58.230 --> 14:02.090 align:start a committee chairman would be so significant. So we're not there yet. 14:02.090 --> 14:04.710 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: One of the interesting things about the congressman, when he came to 14:04.710 --> 14:10.210 align:start the White House, was how quick he was to, again, repeat that there is no evidence that 14:10.210 --> 14:14.500 align:start Barack Obama or the Obama team had wiretapped Trump Tower. 14:14.500 --> 14:19.560 align:start But then he wandered into this discussion with great preparation in terms of what he 14:19.560 --> 14:23.770 align:start intended to do, not preparation in terms of what he was saying, that he was concerned 14:23.770 --> 14:27.880 align:start about this idea that there was surveillance that the United States is doing and is 14:27.880 --> 14:34.850 align:start incidentally picking up innocent Americans in this context. And this was the - really 14:34.850 --> 14:39.100 align:start the meat of the concern. The White House is also trying to say: This is what people 14:39.100 --> 14:43.900 align:start should be up in arms about. The leaking, not what Russia is doing in our democracy. 14:43.900 --> 14:49.130 align:start And if you listen at the White House, and we're repeatedly asking what is the president 14:49.130 --> 14:53.770 align:start of the United States doing to respond to Director Comey's evidence, testimony that this 14:53.770 --> 14:58.230 align:start is continuing now and that it is continuing not only in the United States but in Europe 14:58.230 --> 15:02.240 align:start by Russia. And you just get kind of silenced. 15:02.240 --> 15:06.750 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Because Nunes, Alexis, shares the president's view, according to all of 15:06.750 --> 15:11.110 align:start their advisors and associates, that there's a so-called Deep State. And Nunes articulates 15:11.110 --> 15:15.300 align:start this a lot, that there's this Deep State of current intelligence officials and former 15:15.300 --> 15:19.470 align:start officials, in their view, who are leaking against the White House. And this perhaps 15:19.470 --> 15:24.110 align:start explains the "witch hunt" tweet by the president and the whole response by the White House. 15:24.110 --> 15:27.530 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: But remember, one of the things that we have to not forget is on 15:27.530 --> 15:32.140 align:start March 4th the tweet about the wiretapping is what set off an entire government looking 15:32.140 --> 15:35.380 align:start for the evidence to support the tweet. 15:35.380 --> 15:40.760 align:start And there has been nothing that I have seen or heard to suggest that this effort inside 15:40.760 --> 15:45.280 align:start the White House to search through intelligence is anything other than that. 15:45.280 --> 15:50.310 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: Perhaps just the Michael Flynn quotes that unsealed his conversations 15:50.310 --> 15:54.670 align:start with the Russian ambassador is a bit mixed in there as well. But you do get the sense 15:54.670 --> 15:58.670 align:start that there is a search mission to find something that would support the tweet. 15:58.670 --> 16:01.630 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Everyone wants to learn more about what General Flynn has said. 16:01.630 --> 16:04.820 align:start I love the line from the lawyer's statement for General Flynn, saying: He has a 16:04.820 --> 16:09.080 align:start compelling story, quite the story to tell. We'll see if he's able to tell it. 16:09.080 --> 16:13.410 align:start But the cloud of Russian intrigue isn't the only thing distracting the White House. 16:13.410 --> 16:17.990 align:start The failure of the GOP's replacement health care plan last Friday has left the president 16:17.990 --> 16:23.630 align:start frustrated, especially with the House Freedom Caucus. He put them on notice, as he does, 16:23.630 --> 16:29.200 align:start on Twitter. Trump wrote, "The Freedom Caucus will hurt the entire Republican agenda if 16:29.200 --> 16:35.570 align:start they don't get on the team, & fast. We must fight them, & Dems, in 2018!" Ed, members of 16:35.570 --> 16:39.940 align:start the Freedom Caucus fired right back, saying they're doing the will of their constituents. 16:39.940 --> 16:43.240 align:start ED O'KEEFE: They did. I brought some of these quotes, because I think it's illustrative 16:43.240 --> 16:47.060 align:start of what they were doing. Scott DesJarlais from Tennessee, very conservative guy, told 16:47.060 --> 16:49.840 align:start Roll Call, "In my district, we're very conservative. 16:49.840 --> 16:53.840 align:start So if he gets me out of office, he's going to get someone more conservative than me." 16:53.840 --> 16:57.570 align:start Trent Franks from Arizona, one of the most ardent conservatives in the House, said, "If 16:57.570 --> 17:02.580 align:start somebody can get to the right of me in the primary, God bless them." And that's the 17:02.580 --> 17:06.750 align:start problem that the president is potentially setting himself up for, that if you think these 17:06.750 --> 17:10.580 align:start guys are inflexible just wait till you see the alternative. 17:10.580 --> 17:13.550 align:start ROBERT COSTA: But I'll tell you, the White House is defiant. I spoke to one official 17:13.550 --> 17:17.890 align:start who had this quote that they're going to send Air Force One, Dan, down to the districts 17:17.890 --> 17:23.360 align:start of the Freedom Caucus. And they said nothing's more clarifying than the smell of jet fuel. (Laughter.) 17:23.360 --> 17:28.840 align:start DAN BALZ: I talked to a couple of Republicans right after the bill fell a week ago. 17:28.840 --> 17:33.150 align:start And these are people who used to be in the House, but no longer are. 17:33.150 --> 17:39.110 align:start Their view was that the president would be smart to literally target one or two of them 17:39.110 --> 17:43.860 align:start and, you know, give them a lesson in what presidential power could be. 17:43.860 --> 17:49.580 align:start So there's some view that there ought to be a price paid for defying a president in his 17:49.580 --> 17:56.980 align:start first, what was it then, 65 days, or whatever it was. But I mean, the reaction of them 17:56.980 --> 18:03.410 align:start is indicative of what's happening. He drives them together. He makes them more resistant. 18:03.410 --> 18:08.700 align:start He hasn't found a way to appeal to them. And he couldn't cajole them on the health care 18:08.700 --> 18:12.670 align:start bill. And now it's not clear he's going to be able to threaten them to come his way. 18:12.670 --> 18:16.020 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: One theory I heard was that while he's naming some of these members, 18:16.020 --> 18:20.080 align:start the prominent ones, that perhaps the tweet message is really intended for some of the 18:20.080 --> 18:25.170 align:start noes who are less well-known, that not wanting to incur the wrath of the president. 18:25.170 --> 18:29.620 align:start I also heard the Air Force One strategy, touch down in the district when the member's not 18:29.620 --> 18:32.770 align:start there. But they are showing themselves to be the fearless caucus more than the Freedom 18:32.770 --> 18:36.470 align:start Caucus. They are impervious to the president's threats. 18:36.470 --> 18:39.660 align:start But what we don't yet know is what will happen when they go home. 18:39.660 --> 18:42.510 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Yeah. Is the health care coming back, Alexis? 18:42.510 --> 18:44.800 align:start Is this actually going to be revived? 18:44.800 --> 18:48.650 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, I think that it would be impossible to imagine that happening 18:48.650 --> 18:54.270 align:start right now because there was such quick eagerness on the part of all the Republicans who 18:54.270 --> 18:59.580 align:start felt so stung by this to move on. Paul Ryan, the speaker, sounded that way. 18:59.580 --> 19:04.170 align:start The president sounded that way. His first initial reaction to that was to move on, after 19:04.170 --> 19:07.100 align:start spending three long weeks working on it. 19:07.100 --> 19:12.150 align:start And it just - there doesn't - no one I have interviewed has described it as a realistic 19:12.150 --> 19:17.040 align:start possibility, although what some Republicans have said is that they so - this is really 19:17.040 --> 19:21.770 align:start getting into the weeds - but they so wanted the revenues out of the health care to keep 19:21.770 --> 19:26.810 align:start it going, keep it on the stove, at least to keep talking about how this is important to 19:26.810 --> 19:30.480 align:start tax reform as an inducement to these arch-conservatives. 19:30.480 --> 19:34.740 align:start ED O'KEEFE: And the raw politics - the political reality is that both parties would love 19:34.740 --> 19:39.130 align:start to run another midterm election next year on health care, and to some extent even 19:39.130 --> 19:44.300 align:start immigration - two of the largest, most tricky - or trickiest issues domestically to deal 19:44.300 --> 19:49.080 align:start with. They are good in election years. If they don't do anything, at least it's out 19:49.080 --> 19:52.970 align:start there. And the president has signaled he will blame Democrats, because it is their law. 19:52.970 --> 19:56.480 align:start Democrats, the Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, told me this week: We have ideas. 19:56.480 --> 20:00.610 align:start We are ready to talk to them. We will present them so long as Republicans start 20:00.610 --> 20:03.460 align:start to back off this idea that this law is going to be repealed. 20:03.460 --> 20:06.170 align:start DAN BALZ: But realistically, the Democrats are not going to play ball with them. 20:06.170 --> 20:08.180 align:start ED O'KEEFE: Probably not, right. 20:08.180 --> 20:11.370 align:start DAN BALZ: I interviewed Tom Perez, the new chairman of the Democratic National Committee 20:11.370 --> 20:14.690 align:start this week. And I said to him: Would you all work with the president on health care? 20:14.690 --> 20:18.090 align:start And he said, I would be happy to work with the president to get a public option into the 20:18.090 --> 20:21.300 align:start Affordable Care Act. (Laughter.) So those are - those are the kinds of lines - 20:21.300 --> 20:24.140 align:start ED O'KEEFE: They're over here. They're never going to come together, yeah. 20:24.140 --> 20:27.610 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So that was a showdown. (Laughter.) There was another showdown, and 20:27.610 --> 20:31.390 align:start that's brewing right now in Congress between congressional Republicans and the White 20:31.390 --> 20:36.810 align:start House over a stopgap budget bill to keep the government operating after late April. 20:36.810 --> 20:41.690 align:start President Trump, here's what he wants: $33 billion in new defense and border spending to 20:41.690 --> 20:45.700 align:start help pay for a border wall. Eighteen billion dollars would be cut from health, 20:45.700 --> 20:49.890 align:start education and labor programs to offset some of that increased defense spending and pay 20:49.890 --> 20:54.360 align:start for part of the wall. Democrats and Republicans, however - conservative Republicans - 20:54.360 --> 21:00.920 align:start are rejecting the proposal on fiscal grounds. Kelly, we're facing a potential government 21:00.920 --> 21:05.790 align:start shutdown if Republicans and Democrats can't get this appropriations package through. 21:05.790 --> 21:09.310 align:start KELLY O'DONNELL: We've lived through a few of them. We know what those late nights 21:09.310 --> 21:12.890 align:start are like. And what I'm being told right now is they want to turn the drama down, 21:12.890 --> 21:16.910 align:start especially after what happened with what was supposed to be the signature issue, the 21:16.910 --> 21:20.810 align:start easier one to coalesce around. To deal with something like this, they want to just 21:20.810 --> 21:24.900 align:start quiet things. I am assured - and we've heard these before - no government shutdown. 21:24.900 --> 21:28.320 align:start What's different now, I do think the pain of what happened with the past government 21:28.320 --> 21:33.370 align:start shutdown and these brink moments is a real pain that has been seen at the ballot box and 21:33.370 --> 21:38.650 align:start drives the phone calls to Capitol Hill, which are a potent way of getting to Congress 21:38.650 --> 21:42.950 align:start members. But I think that the conversations are going on about what to present. 21:42.950 --> 21:47.760 align:start A lot of questions about how they can fashion a bill that will be acceptable. 21:47.760 --> 21:50.990 align:start I think the border wall money, off the table. 21:50.990 --> 21:54.130 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So the Democrats don't want the border wall to be included in the package, 21:54.130 --> 21:57.570 align:start Ed. And I want to get, Alexis, your take on the White House's view of all this. 21:57.570 --> 22:00.480 align:start But, Ed, you spoke to Minority Leader Chuck Schumer this week. 22:00.480 --> 22:03.570 align:start Are Democrats really going to work with Republicans to keep the government open and get 22:03.570 --> 22:06.670 align:start this spending package done, or is it going to all fall apart? 22:06.670 --> 22:09.780 align:start ED O'KEEFE: If it doesn't have the border wall money, if there's nothing about defunding 22:09.780 --> 22:14.980 align:start Planned Parenthood, if they don't ask for money to hire what they call a deportation 22:14.980 --> 22:19.450 align:start force at ICE, then yes, Democrats will go along with it because those are - and, you 22:19.450 --> 22:24.220 align:start know, no going back to sequestration-style spending cuts and whatnot, as long as 22:24.220 --> 22:27.770 align:start everything's on parity - and it is. And it's because Republicans know they need 22:27.770 --> 22:30.980 align:start Democrats in the Senate. They're probably going to need some of them in the House 22:30.980 --> 22:34.440 align:start to offset the Freedom Caucus because of the price of all this, and they want to get 22:34.440 --> 22:37.470 align:start this done as fast as they can when they get back from Easter because, let's face it, 22:37.470 --> 22:40.310 align:start they're probably going to spend two weeks getting yelled at back home and they need 22:40.310 --> 22:43.160 align:start to come back quickly and demonstrate some progress. 22:43.160 --> 22:46.520 align:start ROBERT COSTA: But, Alexis, to get Democrats, you got to court Democrats. The president has 22:46.520 --> 22:51.730 align:start a trust gap with many top Democrats going back to the birther issue and so many other fronts. 22:51.730 --> 22:55.200 align:start ALEXIS SIMENDINGER: Well, one of the things that I heard this week was - because we were 22:55.200 --> 22:59.000 align:start surprised to hear President Trump. Initially his blame was the Democrats, and then 22:59.000 --> 23:03.260 align:start he came out a day later and changed his mind - maybe I should talk to Democrats, right? 23:03.260 --> 23:07.680 align:start But there's some method to that, because he thinks he is going to need some Democrats on 23:07.680 --> 23:12.540 align:start some other big things, right? He's hoping to be able to court some of their support 23:12.540 --> 23:16.700 align:start on some other things that he would like to accomplish. But in this particular case, 23:16.700 --> 23:20.840 align:start Democrats have signaled yes, they'd like to talk to him about their agenda. 23:20.840 --> 23:24.610 align:start The White House is saying we'd like to talk to them if they want to work with us on our 23:24.610 --> 23:29.090 align:start agenda exactly the way we have it. And so there is still this definite clash. 23:29.090 --> 23:33.480 align:start ED O'KEEFE: And it is exactly that approach - here's what we're doing, get in line, 23:33.480 --> 23:37.480 align:start Democrats - that Schumer said they will not tolerate and participate in at all. 23:37.480 --> 23:40.810 align:start DAN BALZ: And it's a little difficult when he tweets let's - we have to fight both the 23:40.810 --> 23:45.710 align:start Democrats and the Freedom Caucus in 2018, and the White House continues to make 23:45.710 --> 23:52.440 align:start accusations about the Obama administration and what they may have done to try to increase 23:52.440 --> 23:56.690 align:start the awareness of the surveillance or what the Trump people were doing. 23:56.690 --> 24:02.320 align:start Everything they're doing goes in the opposite direction of finding a way to get together. 24:02.320 --> 24:07.040 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Thanks, everybody. What a week. And welcome, Kelly, to Washington Week. 24:07.040 --> 24:11.910 align:start (Laughter.) It's great to have you here. Our conversation continues online, as ever, 24:11.910 --> 24:16.070 align:start on the Washington Week Extra, where we'll talk about the shakeup at the Democratic 24:16.070 --> 24:20.280 align:start National Committee, where the new chairman has asked the entire staff to resign. 24:20.280 --> 24:24.850 align:start Plus, why Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner, may be the ultimate power couple 24:24.850 --> 24:30.840 align:start in Washington. You can watch that later tonight at PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. 24:30.840 --> 25:04.560 align:start I'm Robert Costa. Thanks so much for watching, and enjoy your weekend.