WEBVTT 00:01.933 --> 00:03.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR, WASHINGTON WEEK: Biden's presidency tested 00:03.200 --> 00:05.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Trump's inner circle questioned. 00:07.766 --> 00:11.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: Mass shootings have become our weekly - - yes, weekly American tradition. 00:13.300 --> 00:17.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was horrible. I went back, there were people shot on the ground, 00:18.633 --> 00:22.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a little boy in somebody's -- one of the police officer's arm. 00:24.133 --> 00:28.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR (voice-over): Another mass shooting. This time in a Chicago suburb. 00:30.300 --> 00:32.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And with Roe v. Wade struck down. 00:32.300 --> 00:33.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For God's sake, 00:33.866 --> 00:38.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there is an election November. Vote, vote, vote. 00:38.100 --> 00:39.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Consider the challenge accepted, court. 00:41.400 --> 00:44.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But in the meantime, I'm signing this important executive order. 00:44.433 --> 00:48.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% ALCINDOR: The president takes action to try and protect abortion rights. 00:48.733 --> 00:53.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But some Democrats are demanding more fight from him in these turbulent political times. 00:55.466 --> 00:59.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% President Trump's White House counsel speaks to the January 6 committee. 01:01.933 --> 01:06.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What he saw, what he knew, and what this means for the former president, next. 01:07.100 --> 01:12.100 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (BREAK) 02:01.066 --> 02:06.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ANNOUNCER: Once again from Washington, moderator Yamiche Alcindor. 02:07.466 --> 02:09.733 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week". 02:09.733 --> 02:14.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% This week started with yet another high-profile mass shooting. In Highland Park, Illinois, 02:16.200 --> 02:19.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a man shot seven people to death at a July 4 parade. 02:19.433 --> 02:22.933 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And according to the Gun Violence Archive, over the holiday weekend, 02:22.933 --> 02:27.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% there were at least 11 mass shootings. That comes as the challenges facing the nation 02:30.400 --> 02:33.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% continue to mount. There's a debate over gun laws, abortion politics, and historic inflation. 02:34.533 --> 02:38.066 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And this week, President Biden faced a rash of bad headlines, 02:38.066 --> 02:41.500 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% with Democrats questioning whether he is meeting the moment. 02:41.500 --> 02:46.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% As an example, following the parade shooting, critics pointed to the president's response as 02:46.233 --> 02:51.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% not forceful enough in contrast to Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker's open frustration. 02:52.933 --> 02:55.700 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% BIDEN: We got a lot more work to do. We've got to get this under control. 02:55.700 --> 03:00.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% PRITZKER: If you're angry today, I'm here to tell you be angry. I'm furious that yet more 03:03.200 --> 03:06.033 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% innocent lives were taken by gun violence. 03:06.033 --> 03:10.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, Republicans continue to focus on mental health issues 03:10.866 --> 03:12.866 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% rather than access to guns. 03:12.866 --> 03:15.366 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Joining me tonight to discuss this - 03:15.366 --> 03:19.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think yesterday's shooting is an example of what the problem is. The 03:22.000 --> 03:27.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% problem is mental health, and these young men who seem to be inspired to commit these atrocities. 03:33.233 --> 03:38.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALCINDOR: Joining me to discuss this and more, Michael Shear, White House correspondent for "The 03:40.333 --> 03:43.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% New York Times", Jeff Zeleny, chief national affairs correspondent for CNN. And joining 03:43.833 --> 03:48.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% me here in studio, Laura Barron-Lopez, White House correspondent for "The PBS NewsHour", 03:51.266 --> 03:53.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% and Josh Dawsey, political enterprise and investigations reporter for "The Washington Post". 03:53.333 --> 03:56.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, Laura, thank you for being here. Congratulations on the new gig. 03:56.333 --> 03:58.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWS HOUR: Thank you. 03:58.300 --> 04:01.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: This was, of course, a surreal start to the week. I can't even imagine 04:01.666 --> 04:05.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% people went to a July 4 parade and ended up running for their lives. Of course, 04:05.733 --> 04:09.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% though, the politics on this continue to be challenging. What do you hear from the White 04:09.500 --> 04:13.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% House and lawmakers about the shooting at other shootings that have happened 04:13.733 --> 04:17.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% recently that might lead to a renewed effort for even more gun legislation? 04:17.200 --> 04:22.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% BARRON-LOPEZ: It is difficult to see anything the president is calling for 04:22.133 --> 04:27.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% in addition to what was passed, you know, which was more expanded background checks, 04:28.866 --> 04:32.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% red flag laws. But what the president has called for 04:32.000 --> 04:37.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are an assault weapons ban, you know, as well a ban on high-capacity magazines. 04:39.433 --> 04:43.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Those things don't really have any Republican support in Congress. So, that's why a lot of 04:45.233 --> 04:49.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% activists and Democrats in his own party are pushing them to do more executive actions. 04:51.133 --> 04:54.400 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Now, right now, the White House is very focused on 04:54.400 --> 04:59.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% getting there nominee to Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency confirmed. That's their 05:01.033 --> 05:03.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% top priority right now. That's where they are putting their focus. 05:03.900 --> 05:08.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, it's really -- I don't see the White House doing any more executive actions anytime soon. 05:10.766 --> 05:14.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And that's, of course, a sort of stark reality given what's going on. 05:14.400 --> 05:18.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Michael, I want to come to you because you did a deep dive, a really deep dive 05:18.466 --> 05:22.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% into Democrats wanting to see more fight out of President Biden. I wonder, 05:22.400 --> 05:27.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% can you talk about the main concerns when you talked to Democrats and allies of the president 05:29.966 --> 05:32.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% about what they want to see from President Biden and how the White House is navigating all of this? 05:32.000 --> 05:33.166 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% MICHAEL SHEAR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: 05:33.166 --> 05:35.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Yeah, thanks for having me on, Yamiche. 05:35.733 --> 05:39.800 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I think when you talk to Democrats, complaints divide into two broad categories. One is actual 05:41.766 --> 05:46.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% policy, more policy engagement. They want the president to do more to confront inflation, 05:49.133 --> 05:53.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% guns, the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And they have a lot of suggestions, none of which -- and 05:56.233 --> 06:00.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% this is the source of the frustration, that the administration is taking them up on. 06:00.133 --> 06:05.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, for example, on Roe v. Wade, there are suggestions for them to allow abortions to be done 06:08.233 --> 06:12.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% on federal land. The administration says that's not practical. There are some problems with that. 06:14.400 --> 06:18.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% The other broad category, though, is a performative piece, right? Part of the presidency 06:20.900 --> 06:24.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% is just seeming engaged and being in the moment that the rest of the country is in. I think this 06:26.733 --> 06:29.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% week was a sort of example of how the president to a lot of Democrats seemed really out of touch. 06:33.100 --> 06:38.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% You know, you have all of these big issues hitting the country at once. And the president 06:40.133 --> 06:43.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was in Cleveland talking about pension plans and he spent much of the time this week, you know, 06:46.233 --> 06:50.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% conferring the metal of honor and Medal of Freedom on a whole bunch of very well deserving people. 06:50.933 --> 06:52.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But to a lot of Democrats, I think it 06:52.866 --> 06:57.733 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% felt like his heart is not in confronting some of these big issues. 06:57.733 --> 07:01.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: There are so many big issues. And you -- I want to stick with you, 07:01.833 --> 07:04.000 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% Michael, because you wrote in this piece, and I want to read it, 07:04.000 --> 07:09.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% other Democratic politicians are jumping into what they see as a void of leadership. That 07:10.866 --> 07:14.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% line really caught my eye. So, I wonder who is really jumping in to sort of fill that 07:14.066 --> 07:18.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% void that they see, and why they are standing out in the way that President Biden isn't? 07:18.900 --> 07:23.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% SHEAR: Well, the two examples I think given the piece, were J.B. Pritzker, 07:23.833 --> 07:28.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% who you mentioned, the governor of Illinois who I think just caught a lot of attention among the 07:31.600 --> 07:34.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% run-of-the-mill Democrats and activists for his passion 07:36.666 --> 07:40.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and his rising to the moment, in terms of his anger after the shooting in Highland Park. 07:43.433 --> 07:46.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The other is Gavin Newsom in California, the governor who 07:48.100 --> 07:51.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think raised some eyebrows by not necessarily campaigning and 07:53.100 --> 07:57.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% running ads in California, but rather Florida, directly challenging Ron DeSantis. 07:59.033 --> 08:03.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% There are a lot of Democrats who say, gee, you know, why isn't our president 08:05.100 --> 08:08.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% doing that? Why isn't our president taking the fight to the governors of Florida, of Texas, 08:10.600 --> 08:15.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% of some of these Republican states? You know, why isn't President Biden 08:17.066 --> 08:21.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% more aggressive in that way? And the fact that he's not is an opening for other folks. 08:24.200 --> 08:27.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Jeff, another headline that caught my eye, or another story that caught my eye, is 08:29.633 --> 08:32.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% out of "Politico", they say Biden isn't running out of ideas, Dems fear, he's running out of time. 08:34.100 --> 08:36.566 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% What is your sense talking to the different sources you are talking to 08:36.566 --> 08:41.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% about the pressure President Biden is facing when the midterms are just four months away? 08:43.900 --> 08:45.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And how does that sort of connect with what other presidents before him have had to deal with? 08:45.900 --> 08:48.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the summer before a midterm 08:48.500 --> 08:53.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% election is always an uncomfortable position in the White House. President Biden certainly joins 08:55.066 --> 08:59.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the ranks of many presidents who are likely to lose seats in their own party in midterm 08:59.266 --> 09:04.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% elections. President Biden has been there to see this firsthand when he was vice president. The 09:04.133 --> 09:09.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% summer before President Obama's midterm election drubbing in 2010, it was a difficult time. 09:11.600 --> 09:16.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% But the difference I think for President Biden is one of himself. He is not traveling nearly 09:19.266 --> 09:24.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as much as other presidents. He's not front-and-center as much as some other 09:26.300 --> 09:30.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% presidents. Part of it is his age. Part of it is the sheer fact of who he is as a politician. 09:32.200 --> 09:36.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He was not elected to go after the governor of Florida. He was not elected to necessarily be 09:38.933 --> 09:43.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the loudest voice in the room. So, now, of course, some Democrats, the frustration is boiling over. 09:45.600 --> 09:47.266 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But as he said the other week, 09:49.133 --> 09:52.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I'm the president who you have. I mean, he is the president in the moment here. So, 09:52.466 --> 09:57.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% there is nothing he can perhaps do to satisfy all of the anxieties and frustrations. 09:58.900 --> 10:02.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But there's more he likely could do. He's frustrated, I'm told. 10:04.833 --> 10:08.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% He has said many times, he told me at the beginning of the year in a press conference 10:08.300 --> 10:11.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that he planned to leave Washington more, he planned to be out in the country more. 10:11.666 --> 10:15.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Well, that just hasn't happened all that much. He did travel to Cleveland this week, 10:15.433 --> 10:20.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it was his first domestic trip in quite some time. 10:22.833 --> 10:25.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Presidents are busy. His schedule is busy with foreign trips, et cetera. So, the reality of 10:28.133 --> 10:31.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what he can do, he's never likely to meet the moment of some other progressives. But I'm not 10:33.400 --> 10:36.733 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sure that we want our president necessarily to be going after individual governors. 10:36.733 --> 10:41.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, of course, Governor Pritzker was fired up because it happened in his own state. 10:43.733 --> 10:45.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We have seen passion from President Biden. What I think some other leaders 10:47.366 --> 10:52.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% are really looking for is more of a direction, more than just this optimistic speech he 10:54.133 --> 10:58.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% sometimes gives. It's really taking things by the reins. That is what he really has not done. 11:00.433 --> 11:03.900 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So, you know, the challenge is getting through the summer 11:03.900 --> 11:06.700 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and into the midterm elections. He is in a tough spot. 11:06.700 --> 11:09.300 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALCINDOR: Definitely a tough spot. 11:09.300 --> 11:11.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ZELENY: Presidents have been in tough spot before him. We will see if he digs himself out of it. 11:12.766 --> 11:12.900 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% ALCINDOR: Definitely a tough spot. 11:14.933 --> 11:18.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And, Josh, what Jeff is talking about is the frustration boiling over. I read something I think 11:20.233 --> 11:23.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% if you asked the Biden campaign whether it would be true in the future, they would, of course, 11:23.500 --> 11:28.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% say no. But in several polls, Joe Biden's approval rating is lower than the former president, 11:30.433 --> 11:32.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Donald Trump. It's a stark thing given that the fact that we covered Trump together. 11:32.700 --> 11:36.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% I wonder what you see is the significance of that, given that President Biden is trying to 11:38.466 --> 11:41.533 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% put up a fight? I was in Cleveland hearing him talk to union workers. 11:41.533 --> 11:45.133 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% But also President Trump still has his grip on the Republican Party. 11:45.133 --> 11:47.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% JOSH DAWSEY, POLITICAL ENTEPRISE AND INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER: He does, 11:47.233 --> 11:51.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and he would be the nominee if it was an election for the 2024 nomination tomorrow. And he's, 11:53.933 --> 11:58.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% by a lot of accounts, thinking about announcing soon to be the nominee, 11:58.666 --> 12:01.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or try to be the nominee for the Republican Party. 12:01.233 --> 12:03.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% I think for former President Biden, you have a lot of confluence of factors that are really 12:03.900 --> 12:08.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% quite challenging. I mean, as long as inflation is quite high, as long as gas prices are five 12:08.700 --> 12:13.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% dollars a gallon, as long as there is this type of concern, and it is hard to put a finger on it. 12:17.266 --> 12:19.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I mean, I talked to Democratic strategists and others about it. 12:19.600 --> 12:23.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% But people just kind of feel unsettled, whether it's COVID, whether it's the economy, whether 12:23.600 --> 12:27.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it's just a sense things are not heading in the right direction. I mean, there's always kind of 12:27.666 --> 12:31.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the barometer in politics is do people think things are heading in the right direction 12:31.500 --> 12:35.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% or the wrong direction, and you can somewhat link to whether someone is reelected or not. 12:35.333 --> 12:38.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% And here, there's a lot of the country thinking things happening in the wrong direction. 12:40.333 --> 12:43.333 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% If you have his numbers, you have a Republican Party that's chomping at 12:43.333 --> 12:47.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the bit to try and defeat him and think they have a quite good chance to do it. 12:47.200 --> 12:52.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALCINDOR: And talking about things being unsettled, President Biden signed an executive 12:54.133 --> 12:58.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% order aimed at protecting access to abortion and medication at emergency contraception. 12:59.533 --> 13:03.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But the reality is, there is no action the president can take to 13:03.033 --> 13:06.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% restore the nationwide right to an abortion in the wake of the Supreme Courts ruling. 13:06.800 --> 13:09.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Laura, so I want to, of course, come to you, because you've been doing a lot of 13:09.600 --> 13:12.933 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% great reporting on this. How much is this executive order? 13:14.333 --> 13:16.366 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What does the impact the White House think it might have? 13:16.366 --> 13:20.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% BARRON-LOPEZ: So, this executive action is essentially steps that President Biden directed 13:20.533 --> 13:25.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% all these agencies to do right after the decision came down. This is just a formalization of that. 13:27.166 --> 13:29.266 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And, so, ultimately, I was talking to a lawyer about it today who said 13:31.766 --> 13:34.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% it is an enforcement of laws to try to direct agencies to protect people who may try to travel, 13:37.433 --> 13:42.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% doctors and patients who may try to travel to get an abortion, 13:42.133 --> 13:47.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to enforce privacy for health data. But it is a lot of using the current laws on the books. 13:49.100 --> 13:54.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And what the Democrats want to see the president do is go bigger and be more creative. So, 13:56.066 --> 14:00.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a lot of executive actions they want are clearly not part of what happened today. 14:00.266 --> 14:05.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% They are looking for him to use Medicaid to fund travel for abortions, not the actual procedure, 14:07.833 --> 14:12.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% because under law, the government can fund the procedure. And also to expand through 14:15.100 --> 14:18.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% the FDA more access to medication abortion, taking away final restrictions on pharmacies. 14:20.633 --> 14:24.466 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% The president may be really cautious about all that, simply because 14:24.466 --> 14:26.933 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the legal challenges that are likely to come. 14:26.933 --> 14:31.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ALCINDOR: And, Michael, what's your sense of how Democrats or sort of seeing what President Biden 14:34.366 --> 14:37.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% talks about the bright spots here? Because Laura is talking about sort of what he's trying to do 14:37.266 --> 14:41.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% with limitations. There was, of course, President Biden, as you mentioned, going to Cleveland, 14:41.033 --> 14:44.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% wanting to talk about the economy, wanting to talk about some of the good things that are happening. 14:44.933 --> 14:46.966 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There are a jobs report today 14:46.966 --> 14:51.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that they wanted to take a victory lap on. But knowledge that Americans, 14:51.200 --> 14:55.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% as Josh said, just are feeling unsettled and not really that great about where things are. 14:55.233 --> 14:59.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% SHEAR: Yeah, exactly right, Yamiche. I mean, they sort of are stuck. Today was a good example. Today 14:59.900 --> 15:03.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% was a good example. As you said, the jobs report was strong enough 15:03.900 --> 15:08.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that under normal circumstances, the White House would be yelling it from the rooftops. 15:10.866 --> 15:15.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But the problem is they are very afraid if the president was overly optimistic, 15:18.233 --> 15:23.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% if the White House is seen as somehow ignoring peoples pain, and he would come across as detached 15:25.766 --> 15:30.100 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% from the way people are experiencing the economy. And, you know, ultimately, the way people vote 15:32.300 --> 15:37.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is not based on some statistic or a percentage the president can point to on a chart, but it 15:39.266 --> 15:43.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is how they feel on how their lives are going and how they feel about their pocketbooks and 15:46.533 --> 15:50.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% the resources to do the thing for themselves and their families that they want to do. 15:52.733 --> 15:56.666 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as I think Josh said, like, you know, the polls suggest people are not feeling great 15:58.633 --> 16:03.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% about those kinds of things. The president risks a lot if he doesn't 16:06.200 --> 16:11.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% seem to acknowledge that. But the flipside is by acknowledgment all of the pain, you can sometimes 16:13.833 --> 16:18.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% can sound like a Debbie downer and not be touting your own success either. So, 16:21.233 --> 16:23.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% it's a real -- its a real problem for the administration, especially in this election year. 16:23.433 --> 16:27.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: Yeah, it's a lot to balance and while President Biden and the White House 16:27.433 --> 16:32.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% challenging that, there were new developments for the investigation into the Capitol attack. Today, 16:34.333 --> 16:38.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% former White House counsel Pat Cipollone testified behind closed doors before the 16:38.800 --> 16:43.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% January 6 committee. And Tuesday, a grand jury in Georgia issued subpoenas to top Trump allies, 16:46.266 --> 16:50.200 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% including his former Attorney Rudy Giuliani and Senator Lindsey Graham. Officials want to know 16:52.333 --> 16:55.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% more about their roles in trying to overturn Georgia's presidential election results. So, 16:55.500 --> 17:00.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Josh, I want to come back to you. What do we know about the significance of Pat Cipollone 17:02.366 --> 17:06.100 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% coming in? There is information about what he said and how long he was there today. 17:07.966 --> 17:10.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% DAWSEY: So, Pat Cipollone, former President Trump's counsel was there for about eight 17:10.133 --> 17:14.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% hours with a few breaks. And you see some lawmakers came out and said they 17:14.700 --> 17:17.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% learned significant new information, that they were pleased with the testimony. 17:19.833 --> 17:23.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% We knew that Pat Cipollone was Cheney's bigger fish. She really wanted him to come in. 17:25.400 --> 17:29.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Wanted to see testimony from other folks of what former President Trump was doing 17:29.500 --> 17:32.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% leading up to the election, how he was pressing these false claims, 17:32.700 --> 17:37.600 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the planning of January 6. And you heard a lot about Pat Cipollone. 17:37.600 --> 17:42.533 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But heretofore, he had been unwilling to come in and to talk to the committee directly. 17:44.400 --> 17:47.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% He had done one informal interview, he had cited privilege, and when the committee 17:47.200 --> 17:50.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% took a pretty risky step, and subpoenaed him, and it was unclear what he would do, 17:53.733 --> 17:58.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% what you saw from getting him today is you have a number of figures in the former president's 18:01.133 --> 18:03.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% inner circle who have given the community -- committee videotaped testimony, under oath, that 18:03.500 --> 18:08.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% have given a deeper knowledge of what happened that day and former president's role in it. 18:08.300 --> 18:11.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And Pat Cipollone is particularly interesting, because he was involved in 18:11.500 --> 18:16.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% discussions about seizing voting machines. He was involved in discussions about 18:16.066 --> 18:21.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% some of the more spurious claims, he was in the White House on election night. He 18:23.100 --> 18:27.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% was around the days before and after January 6. He allegedly warned a lot of aides about 18:28.866 --> 18:33.033 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the crimes people would face if they went to the Capitol 18:33.033 --> 18:37.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and if they went through with some of these more grandiose plans the former president had. 18:39.900 --> 18:42.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So he doesn't have a close relationship with the former president anymore. I mean, 18:42.300 --> 18:47.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they had a tense relationship at times. I don't think they are necessarily simpatico in almost 18:49.600 --> 18:54.600 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% anyway. That said, he had been very strident about trying to respect privilege in his mind 18:56.600 --> 19:00.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and not wanting to discuss the conversations he directly had with the former president. 19:00.266 --> 19:05.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And so, the fact he went in today, we don't know what he said. I think we will be trying 19:07.200 --> 19:09.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% to learn that in the next few days. It is significant development for the community. 19:09.200 --> 19:13.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: It certainly is significant development, Jeff, and you told our producers 19:13.333 --> 19:18.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% it is not a stretch to say that Pat Cipollone might be the most important witness that came 19:18.000 --> 19:22.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% before this committee. Explain your thinking there, given the fact that Pat Cipollone might 19:22.933 --> 19:27.266 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% change the direction of this investigation, or at least add significant information to it? 19:27.266 --> 19:32.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ZELENY: Look, I mean, as josh was saying, there was no one who was really involved from the inside 19:34.366 --> 19:38.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% of the White House at that level of position, that level of experience and knowledge of the law 19:39.533 --> 19:42.533 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% more than Pat Cipollone. So, we don't know he will be the most 19:42.533 --> 19:46.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% important witness at this point. As Josh said, we don't know exactly what he said. 19:46.233 --> 19:50.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But there was no one who had the window into really everything that was going on 19:50.933 --> 19:55.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% and potentially, you know, he tried to stop from going on. I mean, he sounded the alarm 19:58.000 --> 20:01.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% about the involvement in the president going to the Capitol on January 6. He knew a lot of the 20:05.900 --> 20:10.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% things that -- the outside legal teams, Rudy Giuliani and others who were trying to 20:10.400 --> 20:14.133 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% cook up. And it seemed like he was trying to throw his body in front of all of that. 20:14.133 --> 20:19.133 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% So, I thought, you know, sitting down for eight hours is a very long time. They have a lot to talk 20:21.600 --> 20:24.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% about. I mean, just the days leading up to January 6, never mind from Election Day forward here. So, 20:26.266 --> 20:28.233 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's certainly as an indication he did not spend 20:28.233 --> 20:31.500 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% time pleading the Fifth. We know he answered questions. 20:31.500 --> 20:36.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And as Zoe Lofgren said the congresswoman from California, she said he did not contradict 20:38.500 --> 20:41.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson. Of course, 20:42.833 --> 20:46.833 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% the top advisor to the White House chief of staff Mark Meadows. 20:46.833 --> 20:51.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, look, I think we are going to see since the video -- since the deposition was videotaped, 20:54.333 --> 20:57.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% my guess is, since we have seen how this committee works, they like to play those videotapes. My 20:59.500 --> 21:02.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% guess is in the coming days, likely next week, we will see some of Pat Cipollone's testimony. 21:02.233 --> 21:07.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But certainly he has more knowledge than virtually anyone else in a deep level, you know, 21:09.666 --> 21:13.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% mixing that with the experience in Washington and the legal knowledge, he has a lot to say. 21:13.900 --> 21:16.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: And you talk about the hearings coming up. 21:16.133 --> 21:20.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% How much based on your reporting are the hearings making an impact 21:20.000 --> 21:24.866 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% with the American public that have been tuning in at least some time by the millions, but also among 21:24.866 --> 21:29.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Republicans who are rethinking their thoughts on former President Trump? 21:29.833 --> 21:34.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% ZELENY: Look, there's no doubt that not everyone is watching for every moment of these hearings, 21:34.000 --> 21:38.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% particularly independents and even Republican voters are not. But it is impossible to not, 21:41.033 --> 21:44.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% you know, have some of this information sipping down, you know, through editorials in "The Wall 21:44.033 --> 21:49.000 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Street Journal", other places. You know, what it has learned is a huge breath of information. 21:51.366 --> 21:56.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% But I think, more interestingly, it certainly has shattered this myth that there was widespread 21:58.433 --> 22:02.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% election fraud. It has shattered it in the eyes of many Republicans and others that there was 22:04.800 --> 22:07.100 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% some big fraud going on. But I think more interestingly, 22:08.533 --> 22:12.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the biggest outcome in terms of the 2024 presidential race. 22:14.833 --> 22:17.833 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% It has given other potential Republican rivals for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and others 22:17.833 --> 22:22.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% a window into the thinking of the former president. Yes, at this point, he still is 22:23.900 --> 22:25.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% controlling the Republican Party, 22:27.900 --> 22:31.300 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% but certainly, you know, with the iron grip it has seen several months ago. So, that is something -- 22:33.300 --> 22:35.366 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And it's such a great point that you make about the sort of the grip that he has. 22:35.366 --> 22:39.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Michael, I want to come to you, because Georgia also had all these developments. The DA there 22:39.900 --> 22:43.933 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% saying she might subpoena more people. What is the significance of what is going on there? 22:43.933 --> 22:48.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70% SHEAR: Well, I think in some ways, it's adding to the narrative that the January 6 committee 22:50.933 --> 22:55.800 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% is laying out for the public doing what Jeff said, which is to seeping into the 22:57.800 --> 23:00.900 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% American consciousness. And the investigation - - I thought it was interesting. The people 23:02.633 --> 23:07.633 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% that the investigators in Georgia were seeking to talk to some of the 23:09.666 --> 23:13.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% obvious ones, Rudy Giuliani and the like, but I thought it was interesting they wanted to talk 23:16.166 --> 23:18.900 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% to Senator Lindsey Graham, who had been one of the people who made phone calls to Georgia officials. 23:21.500 --> 23:26.500 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% And I do think -- I think Jeff is right. But I think the big question is how much is this 23:28.500 --> 23:31.433 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% really going to matter. How much at the end of the day are Americans going to shrug off 23:33.466 --> 23:38.033 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% all of this as a story that they already knew, that they already felt somewhere deep down that 23:40.066 --> 23:44.200 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% they understood it had happened? And how much of it is -- or on the other side, how much do they 23:46.700 --> 23:51.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% suddenly wake up and say we thought we knew what had happened here on January sixth and the days 23:53.233 --> 23:56.333 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% leading up to it, but this is worse, this is different, and we will make different decisions. 23:56.333 --> 23:59.766 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% ALCINDOR: And it's a critical question to ask, like how much is this going to matter? 23:59.766 --> 24:02.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% Laura and Josh, 30 seconds to go to both of you. What are you looking for 24:04.833 --> 24:06.700 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% next week as we think about these hearings and what lawmakers are saying? 24:06.700 --> 24:09.300 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% First to you, Laura. 24:09.300 --> 24:12.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% BARRON-LOPEZ: One of the first hearings is going to be a lot about the violence and what occurred 24:12.400 --> 24:17.400 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% that day, what the president and his inner circle new, how concerned were they with these 24:19.400 --> 24:22.633 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% groups like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers? I'm going to be keeping an eye on that. 24:22.633 --> 24:24.100 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% ALCINDOR: Josh? 24:24.100 --> 24:26.866 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% DAWSEY: Yeah, that's exactly right. And also the committee is 24:26.866 --> 24:31.866 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% expected to delve into what the former president was doing in that 187-minute period 24:33.433 --> 24:35.900 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% as the Capitol was under attack in the future, as soon as Thursday. 24:35.900 --> 24:39.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% One of the things my colleague, Jackie Alemany, reported today is that they 24:39.300 --> 24:44.300 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% had got more witnesses coming forward, they could expand it into August. It may not be 24:45.766 --> 24:47.200 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the last of the hearing. So, I don't think the story is over. 24:47.200 --> 24:50.000 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ALCINDOR: Definitely, definitely not a story that is over. 24:50.000 --> 24:54.233 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% So, thank you all for joining us, all of our panelists, and for sharing your reporting. 24:54.233 --> 24:59.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% Laura, Jeff and I will continue the conversation on "The Washington Week Extra". This week's topic, 25:01.233 --> 25:04.066 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% startling headlines from abroad, including the latest on basketball Brittney Griner, 25:04.066 --> 25:08.466 align:left position:10% line:77% size:80% who remains in a prison in Russia. Find it on our website, Facebook, and YouTube. 25:08.466 --> 25:13.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80% And Saturday's "PBS News Weekend", a look at how inaccurate and misleading information about 25:14.866 --> 25:17.333 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% abortion is affecting policy and public opinion. 25:17.333 --> 25:19.600 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you for joining us. Good night from Washington.