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(gentle music)

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- Good evening and welcome 
to the Washington Week Extra.

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I'm Yamiche Alcindor.

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Last week, 22-year-old Amir 
Locke was shot and killed

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by a Minneapolis police 
officer executing

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a no-knock search warrant.

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A body cam video released by 
the city shows police barging

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into the apartment where 
Locke appears to be sleeping

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on a couch and 
starting to get up.

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Police say they 
announced themselves 
and that Locke was shot

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after he pointed a loaded gun 
in the direction of officers.

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It's not clear from the 
video if the gun was pointed

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at officers or if anyone 
ordered him to drop it

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before he was shot.

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In an interview with CNN,

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Locke's family said he was 
legally owning that gun,

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and they described his death

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as a failure of law enforcement.

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- Do you blame the 
officer or the system

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that put this officer in this 
position in the first place?

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- I believe that the 
no-knock warrant is

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what caused Amir's death.

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- The whole system, everybody.

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He wasn't killed, he wasn't 
murdered, he was executed.

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- They are also 
calling for the city

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to make substantial 
changes to their policies.

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- Nothing that they can 
do can bring our son back,

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but the best thing that 
they can do at this point

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with no-knock warrants and 
prosecuting the officer

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who decided to play God.

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What they can do is 
fire him, prosecute him,

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and just tell the truth.

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"We messed up."

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- This comes after the murder 
of George Floyd in Minneapolis

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which led to widespread protests 
during the summer of 2020,

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and no-knock warrants have 
long been a standing issue

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that extends beyond Minneapolis.

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Two years ago in 
Louisville, Kentucky,

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26-year-old Breonna 
Taylor was shot and killed

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after police officers 
entered her home

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with a no-knock warrant.

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The backlash from her 
death eventually led

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to Breonna's Law, a total ban

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on these warrants in Louisville.

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Joining me to discuss policing 
and politics, Omar Jimenez,

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national correspondent for CNN.

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He as you saw on video,

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he recently interviewed 
the Locke family.

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Errin Haines, editor 
at large for The 19th,

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a nonprofit news site focused 
on gender and politics.

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And Philip Rucker, 
deputy national editor

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for the Washington Post.

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Thank you all for being here.

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Omar, I wanna start with you.

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Talk about the discrepancy

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between what the police 
are saying happened,

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and what Amir Locke's 
family is saying.

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And where do things 
stand now with the case

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and with the officers involved.

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- Yeah, so this is 
a discrepancy we see

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in a lot of these cases, 
kind of the initial account

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by police and then what we 
later learn as documents

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and as body camera 
video come out.

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In this particular 
case, the person

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that the police encountered 
initially as they described it,

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they described him as a suspect.

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Well, as we learned later 
on, Amir Locke was not named

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in any of the search warrants.

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As you mentioned before, 
you were coming to me,

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police have said that 
this gun was pointed

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in the direction of 
the shooting officer,

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but based on what 
they've released so far,

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there's no way for us to 
verify that at this point.

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So that discrepancy while it 
is bad, it's not quite as bad

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as what we saw in 
George Floyd's case

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where it was initially described

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as a man who had a 
medical emergency

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with no mention of any 
sort of police restraint,

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which as we later learned was 
incredibly far from the truth.

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Where things stand right now,

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the case is under investigation 
by state authorities

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as they typically do in these 
police-involved shootings.

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The officer is placed on 
routine administrative leave,

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but in the meantime, the family

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and their attorneys are urging 
not just state lawmakers

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but even called on President 
Biden to institute a ban

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on no-knock warrants.

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President Biden, they 
want him to do it

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at the federal level for 
federal law enforcement,

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and then at the state 
level there is a push

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by some lawmakers to at least 
further restrict the use

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of them, but we haven't seen

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that legislation materialize 
word for word just yet.

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- Yeah, and as you talk 
about no-knock warrants,

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the warrant for Amir's case,

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for Amir Locke's case was 
released this week on Thursday.

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Talk a bit first for people 
maybe who aren't familiar

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about what exactly 
no-knock warrants are.

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And then talk a bit about 
why police say they needed

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to use it in this case.

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- Yeah, so a no-knock warrant.

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I guess the best way to 
put it is the difference

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between a standard search 
warrant and a no-knock warrant.

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Standard is sort of 
what you would call

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a knock-and-announce.

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You knock, "Police," you 
give it a second for them

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to potentially interpret the 
fact that there are police

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at the door, and then you go in.

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A no-knock warrant is 
when you don't do that,

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or you announce after 
you've crossed the threshold

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of an actual residence 
or apartment.

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And then in this particular 
case why the officers felt

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like they needed to do 
it, they were searching

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for property tied 
to a homicide case

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out of nearby St. 
Paul, Minnesota.

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This was a Minneapolis apartment 
that they were going into.

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And part of their reasoning 
was they felt it was safer

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for them to go in, in 
a no-knock warrant.

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They were worried about the 
destruction of property tied

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to this particular 
homicide case.

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And so they used that as 
reasoning to then push in

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as we saw in the body camera 
video that was released.

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The only issue was it happened 
as Amir Locke was asleep.

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He was startled or appeared 
to wake up as they came in,

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and as his family has argued,

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he had no idea 
what was going on.

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No one could have known 
what was going on,

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and to quote one of 
their attorneys, he said,

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"No law abiding gun 
owner could have survived

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that situation."

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And that of course 
becomes the main crux

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of the issue for 
no-knock warrants.

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How safe are they really when 
even law abiding citizens

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are put in these 
particular situations?

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- Well, as you said, 
safety, and one more to Omar

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before I brought it out.

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You talk about that 
issue of safety here.

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What is the argument 
against no-knock warrants?

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What have activists been saying?

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Those who have been successful, 
those who are still fighting

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about the safety 
of these warrants?

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- Well, because you look at 
cases that have happened.

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You mentioned Breonna 
Taylor coming to me,

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the outcome there 
where you're going

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and you're executing a 
no-knock warrant at off hours,

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early morning, in the middle 
of the night where someone

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on the inside, if you don't 
have that knock, "Hi, police,"

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might assume it's just an 
intruder and treat it as such.

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While police are then 
met with more force

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than they might have meant 
on the other side of things.

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So the critics say it's 
not safe for either side

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of the door, makes things 
more dangerous for police

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because now these people are 
more willing to use force back,

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and then vice versa.

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And with Breonna Taylor's 
situation, of course

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that translated into policy 
in Louisville, Breonna's Law.

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And we've seen some states 
take that approach as well.

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Oregon, Florida, Virginia 
became the latest in late 2020.

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The state of Kentucky didn't, 
but Minnesota is trying to

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at least make it harder to 
obtain no-knock warrants.

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At least that's what we've 
been hearing initially

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from some state lawmakers.

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And Minneapolis itself 
tried to restrict these

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in the aftermath of what 
happened to Breonna Taylor

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to basically reserve them 
for high-risk situations only

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to be approved by supervisors.

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But that was the policy 
in place prior to this.

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So it remains to be seen 
whether Minneapolis mayor,

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Jacob Frey says and 
uses this moment

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to take that even further.

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- Yeah.

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And Errin, you've written 
about Breonna Taylor,

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you wrote about George Floyd.

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People thought in this country.

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I think a lot of people 
thought George Floyd

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was the tipping point, 
but now here we are

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almost two years 
later back talking

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about the Minneapolis police,

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back talking about an 
African-American man

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who has been shot, who 
has been killed by police.

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Talk a little bit 
about the frustration

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that you hear when you talk 
to civil rights activists,

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when you talk to people who are 
impacted by these shootings,

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and where things stand in 
terms of people's minds

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when you see something like 
this happen again and again.

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- Yeah, and listen, 
Yamiche, here we are.

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I mean, this shooting happened

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at the beginning of 
Black History Month.

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It happened in a month that 
marks the 10 year anniversary

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of really the emergence of the 
Black Lives Matter movement.

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And so really it is a 
marker and a reminder

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of how much progress remains 
to be made on the issue

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of communities of color 
in particular feeling

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like they are safe and 
are being fairly treated

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by members of law enforcement, 
and what can be done

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to mitigate the killing 
of black people by police

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and by vigilantes.

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As you mentioned, I wrote 
the first national story

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on Breonna Taylor a 
couple of years ago.

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Her case, as Omar mentioned, 
again raised the issue

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of no-knock warrants, 
and just the idea

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that black people are unsafe, 
even in their own homes

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from law enforcement.

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Raised the issue of 
legal gun ownership,

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something that came up in 
the Philando Castile case.

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Minneapolis did put at a 
moratorium on no-knock warrants,

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but this is an issue, again, 
it still has not been addressed

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at the federal level.

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Police reform that 
was being discussed

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in Congress went 
nowhere last summer.

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It's important to point 
out as Omar did that states

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and local jurisdictions 
are attempting

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to do what Congress is not 
doing in terms of police reform

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whether you're talking about 
ending no-knock warrants

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to banning choke 
holds, expanding the 
use of body cameras,

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keeping police from being 
first responders on issues

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of mental health that can 
turn into deadly encounters.

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But listen, voters 
that I talked to headed

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into the 2020 election 
after that summer

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around the national 
reckoning of race

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that brought a diverse group 
of Americans into the streets

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by the millions.

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What they were saying was that 
this was one of the issues

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that they wanted addressed 
by this new administration.

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They wanted a federal 
response to what would be done

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to stop the really 
unrelenting killing of black

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and brown Americans by law 
enforcement and vigilantes.

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They wanted 
something to be done,

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and the government really 
should be who intervenes

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so that there was 
a uniform policy

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across this country 
rather than states

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and jurisdictions figuring 
this out on their own.

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- Yeah.

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And Phil, Errin just 
broke down the sort

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of politics of this.

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So many voters are looking 
at President Biden,

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looking at Democrats and saying,

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especially I will say 
African-American voters

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and saying policing 
reform was stalled,

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voting rights is stalled.

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What are the politics 
specifically when 
it comes to policing

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for President Biden and the 
impact that this could have

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on Democrats trying to hold 
onto control here in D.C.?

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- Well, Yamiche, those two 
agenda items have been stalled.

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And I think a lot of Democrats 
are frustrated by that,

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and demoralized by 
that, and thought that

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by electing a democratic 
president and a 
democratic majority

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in the House and the Senate 
that these agenda items

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would be front and center,

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and that these reforms 
would be passed into law.

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That there would 
be policing reform,

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that there would be voting 
protections in the form

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of voting rights 
passed by the Congress.

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And that has not happened.

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There are a lot of 
frustrations by activists,

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as well as by some 
elected Democrats

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that President Biden has 
not used the full weight

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of his office to push these 
issues on Capitol Hill.

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Remember, when he 
first came into office,

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he was prioritizing the 
pandemic, he was prioritizing

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some of the fiscal bills, 
first the stimulus bill

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for pandemic relief, 
and then spent months

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in negotiations with 
Senator Joe Manchin,

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Senator Kyrsten 
Sinema, and trying

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to win over Republican support

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for his Build Back 
Better initiative

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and for infrastructure 
at the expense,

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according to many 
democratic activists,

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of a full-throated 
push for voting rights,

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and for policing reform.

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We've in recent weeks 
heard President Biden give

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powerful speeches 
about voting rights.

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And he has talked over the 
course of his presidency

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about how much he 
values policing reform,

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but we haven't seen the 
energy and the momentum

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on Capitol Hill to 
push these forward.

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And you also haven't seen 
the democratic majorities,

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however slim, in the Congress 
actually pass these laws.

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- Yeah.

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And Omar, last question to you.

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Amir Locke's family, they're 
calling for federal legislation

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to ban no-knock warrants, 
but as Phil just pointed out,

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as Errin just pointed out, there 
hasn't been much happening,

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anything really happening 
in the last year

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as it relates to 
policing reform.

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What's your sense after 
talking to them, after talking

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to activists on the ground 
there in Minneapolis

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about how much they see 
the federal government

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as a place where they 
can see change or whether

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or not this is gonna be 
really something focused

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on local communities because 
policing is of course so local?

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- I think it's been the 
latter, where of course,

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they've made calls 
to President Biden,

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of course they've made calls 
to the Department of Justice

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to get involved.

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And they have in some cases 
where right now in the middle

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of the federal prosecution 
for the other three officers

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in the George Floyd 
case, not Derek Chauvin,

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who's convicted at 
the state level.

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And the Minneapolis 
police department is

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under a current 
DOJ probe right now

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for their patterns 
and practices.

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So some of those appeals 
have been successful,

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but as far as concrete 
policy and action,

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it's really come down to trying

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to lobby their local officials

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and put a lot of pressure there.

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I mean, look, in Minneapolis

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in particular we saw 
a really huge movement

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to try and dismantle 
the police department

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in favor of sort 
of encompassing it

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within a wider public 
safety department

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to the point where it 
was able to get put

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on the November ballot.

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And it failed but it 
was a very close vote.

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And a lot of that energy 
wasn't so much defeated

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00:13:55,167 --> 00:13:57,803
as "Wow, we put everything 
into it and now look,

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00:13:57,803 --> 00:13:59,305
the people's spoken, it's over."

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It's more that "Look how 
many people voted for this."

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The energy to try and reform 
our police department,

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00:14:04,977 --> 00:14:07,780
our public safety approach 
is there, it's just a matter

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00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:09,281
of trying to channel it.

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And the last thing I'll say 
is there were a lot of ideals

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00:14:11,884 --> 00:14:13,652
of what policing 
should look like,

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00:14:13,652 --> 00:14:15,688
especially after George Floyd

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00:14:15,688 --> 00:14:18,824
because many people saw the 
conviction of Derek Chauvin

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00:14:18,824 --> 00:14:21,961
and the energy around that sort 
of being the tipping point.

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00:14:21,961 --> 00:14:26,365
But the ideals have taken 
a long time to catch up

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00:14:26,365 --> 00:14:27,800
with reality.

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And these practices and 
policies that are getting put

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00:14:29,969 --> 00:14:33,105
in place are taking a while 
to become common practice

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00:14:33,105 --> 00:14:35,708
for a lot of these police 
officers who have made a career

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00:14:35,708 --> 00:14:38,477
out of doing things 
a certain way.

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And I think that's sort of 
the trouble that we're running

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00:14:41,447 --> 00:14:43,716
into right now, not 
to mention the fact

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that there was a pandemic,

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00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:47,152
that last year was the deadliest 
year for law enforcement.

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00:14:47,152 --> 00:14:49,521
That was the deadliest year 
for people out in the streets

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00:14:49,521 --> 00:14:51,023
as homicide numbers spiked.

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00:14:51,023 --> 00:14:54,593
That context matters when 
you're trying to reform yourself

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00:14:54,593 --> 00:14:56,028
at the center of it all.

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00:14:57,329 --> 00:14:58,831
- Yeah, yeah.

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00:14:58,831 --> 00:15:00,399
Well, an important topic 
that we'll keep covering.

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00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:01,934
We'll have to leave 
it there tonight.

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00:15:01,934 --> 00:15:04,637
Thank you so much to 
Omar, to Errin, to Phil

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00:15:04,637 --> 00:15:06,138
for sharing your reporting.

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00:15:06,138 --> 00:15:08,574
And make sure to sign up for 
the Washington Week newsletter

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00:15:08,574 --> 00:15:09,808
on our website.

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00:15:09,808 --> 00:15:12,077
We'll give you a look at 
all things Washington.

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00:15:12,077 --> 00:15:13,679
Thank you so much 
for joining us.

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Goodnight from Washington.

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(gentle music)