WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.380 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Raucous rallies, defiant tweets, and a looming showdown with the special 00:05.380 --> 00:11.790 align:start counsel. I'm Robert Costa. August is anything but quiet, tonight on Washington Week. 00:11.790 --> 00:21.170 align:start Just hours before President Trump hosted a rally in Pennsylvania, his national security 00:21.170 --> 00:25.440 align:start chiefs were sounding the alarm. 00:25.440 --> 00:29.040 align:start HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: (From video.) Our democracy itself is in 00:29.040 --> 00:32.990 align:start the crosshairs. Free and fair elections are the cornerstone of our democracy, and it 00:32.990 --> 00:36.010 align:start has become clear that they are the target of our adversaries. 00:36.010 --> 00:40.500 align:start ROBERT COSTA: A stark warning from the White House: Russia used and continues to use 00:40.500 --> 00:44.050 align:start cyber weapons to interfere in American campaigns. 00:44.050 --> 00:47.360 align:start DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DAN COATS: (From video.) The intelligence community 00:47.360 --> 00:51.080 align:start continues to be concerned about the threats of upcoming U.S. 00:51.080 --> 00:55.390 align:start elections, both the midterms and the presidential elections of 2020. 00:55.390 --> 00:58.830 align:start FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY: (From video.) Make no mistake: the scope of this foreign 00:58.830 --> 01:01.820 align:start influence threat is both broad and deep. 01:01.820 --> 01:05.810 align:start ROBERT COSTA: But the messages on Russia were not in lockstep. At the Pennsylvania 01:05.810 --> 01:10.700 align:start rally, Mr. Trump maintained that he wants a better relationship with Vladimir Putin. 01:10.700 --> 01:13.930 align:start PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I had a great meeting with Putin. 01:13.930 --> 01:16.670 align:start We discussed everything. I had a great meeting. (Cheers, applause.) 01:16.670 --> 01:21.010 align:start By the way, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. That's a really good thing. 01:21.010 --> 01:25.030 align:start ROBERT COSTA: It was the latest example of the president's singular approach. 01:25.030 --> 01:29.770 align:start PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I have great confidence in my intelligence people, 01:29.770 --> 01:36.510 align:start but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. 01:36.510 --> 01:40.960 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And the presidential shattering of norms extended to Special Counsel 01:40.960 --> 01:43.990 align:start Robert Mueller and his Russia investigation. 01:43.990 --> 01:47.050 align:start PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) Now, we're being hindered by the Russian hoax. 01:47.050 --> 01:49.420 align:start It's a hoax, OK? 01:49.420 --> 01:53.440 align:start ROBERT COSTA: It all comes as his former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, goes to trial 01:53.440 --> 01:58.300 align:start for federal tax and bank fraud charges. We cover it all next. 01:58.300 --> 02:09.410 align:start ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 02:09.410 --> 02:15.620 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. The week has been revealing, showing the tensions inside 02:15.620 --> 02:20.910 align:start the Trump administration over Russia in the scenes that played out at the White House 02:20.910 --> 02:25.320 align:start and on the campaign trail. Thursday was a microcosm. 02:25.320 --> 02:30.560 align:start That morning top intelligence officials, including FBI Director Christopher Wray and 02:30.560 --> 02:35.020 align:start Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, appeared at the White House, and they said 02:35.020 --> 02:39.200 align:start the upcoming midterm elections remain a target for Russia. 02:39.200 --> 02:42.540 align:start DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DAN COATS: (From video.) We acknowledge the threat. 02:42.540 --> 02:47.380 align:start It is real, it is continuing, and we're doing everything we can to have a legitimate 02:47.380 --> 02:52.450 align:start election that the American people can have trust in. In addition to that, it goes 02:52.450 --> 02:56.750 align:start beyond the elections. It goes to Russia's intent to undermine our democratic 02:56.750 --> 03:02.080 align:start values, drive a wedge between our allies, and do a number of other nefarious things. 03:02.080 --> 03:05.740 align:start FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY: (From video.) This threat is not going away. 03:05.740 --> 03:10.240 align:start As I have said consistently, Russia attempted to interfere with the last election and 03:10.240 --> 03:15.050 align:start continues to engage in malign influence operations to this day. 03:15.050 --> 03:20.470 align:start ROBERT COSTA: The president did not appear alongside them, but later Thursday rallied 03:20.470 --> 03:25.480 align:start his core voters in Pennsylvania. Instead, he had a great meeting - his words - with 03:25.480 --> 03:31.100 align:start Vladimir Putin in Helsinki and, quote, "got along really well" with the Russian president. 03:31.100 --> 03:39.280 align:start And he sharply criticized the Russia probe. What's next and what matters? 03:39.280 --> 03:44.510 align:start All this president and his advisors face mounting challenges. 03:44.510 --> 03:48.720 align:start Joining me for tonight's conversation, Paula Reid, White House and Justice correspondent 03:48.720 --> 03:53.390 align:start for CBS News; Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times; Andrea 03:53.390 --> 03:58.060 align:start Mitchell, chief foreign affairs correspondent for NBC News; and Molly Ball, national 03:58.060 --> 04:01.470 align:start political reporter for TIME Magazine. 04:01.470 --> 04:05.630 align:start Peter, when you think about a company, when it has its executive vice presidents come 04:05.630 --> 04:09.620 align:start out and say a statement, the market pays attention to what the CEO says. 04:09.620 --> 04:14.600 align:start Why does it matter if President Trump's deputies come out to the White House lectern and 04:14.600 --> 04:17.940 align:start have a different message, a starker message, on Russia than him? 04:17.940 --> 04:21.860 align:start PETER BAKER: Right. Not just the markets. People pay attention also in the Kremlin in 04:21.860 --> 04:26.560 align:start this case. And the message that they're hearing is, of course, this two-pronged approach. 04:26.560 --> 04:31.930 align:start And what matters of about this, among other things, is Vladimir Putin puts great stock in 04:31.930 --> 04:35.920 align:start what the leader says, what the number-one person says. That's the way he runs his country. 04:35.920 --> 04:39.620 align:start That's the way he presumes other people run their country. And that's the way, in fact, 04:39.620 --> 04:43.950 align:start Donald Trump likes to run his country. So I was in Moscow for four years. I remember 04:43.950 --> 04:47.930 align:start interviewing him. And when we would bring up to him criticisms of him that had been 04:47.930 --> 04:50.970 align:start issued by American officials underneath the president, he would just brush it off 04:50.970 --> 04:54.540 align:start saying: That's not what my friend George says. At the time, George W. Bush. 04:54.540 --> 04:58.120 align:start So he places great stock in what the president says, not on what Dan Coats says, not on 04:58.120 --> 05:01.780 align:start what Chris Wray says. What those people are talking to is a different audience. 05:01.780 --> 05:05.060 align:start They're talking to us. They're talking to people who actually cover this issue or 05:05.060 --> 05:09.690 align:start care about democracy issues and are worried about Russia. They're trying to say: We 05:09.690 --> 05:13.170 align:start actually do take this seriously. Don't pay attention to the president. But that's an 05:13.170 --> 05:16.470 align:start extraordinary thing for a government in which you had this bifurcated policy. 05:16.470 --> 05:18.800 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: There's another issue as well. 05:18.800 --> 05:22.470 align:start You correctly point out - you know better than anyone how Putin sees this. But the 05:22.470 --> 05:26.250 align:start rest of government - bureaucracies don't move unless there's leadership from the top. 05:26.250 --> 05:31.610 align:start The fact is that they had their one and only meeting at the, you know, presidential level 05:31.610 --> 05:36.560 align:start last Friday, just a week ago, and it was less than an hour devoted to the whole issue of 05:36.560 --> 05:40.560 align:start Russia and its attack on the election, and its continuing attack. 05:40.560 --> 05:46.400 align:start And that was two to three weeks after Dan Coats had warned publicly at the Hudson 05:46.400 --> 05:51.560 align:start Institute that the red lights were blinking and it was the, you know, most important, 05:51.560 --> 05:57.520 align:start urgent warning since the 9/11 pre-warnings about terror, in the area of cyberspace. 05:57.520 --> 06:02.400 align:start We've been told that the Senate Intelligence Committee has been told that in fact they 06:02.400 --> 06:06.440 align:start are - the Russians are into our electric grid, they're into our infrastructure, to say 06:06.440 --> 06:11.690 align:start nothing of the propaganda, the false and malign information that was outlined, at least 06:11.690 --> 06:17.510 align:start alleged, in the Mueller indictments. So the fact that the president has not led a 06:17.510 --> 06:21.790 align:start meeting or signaled the importance of this - and keeps denying it out on the campaign 06:21.790 --> 06:25.730 align:start trail and contradicting them - is sending a signal it doesn't matter. 06:25.730 --> 06:29.660 align:start And until he shows that it matters to him, it's not going to get fixed. 06:29.660 --> 06:31.810 align:start ROBERT COSTA: It wasn't just the president there, Paula. 06:31.810 --> 06:34.210 align:start Where was Attorney General Jeff Sessions? 06:34.210 --> 06:37.430 align:start PAULA REID: That's a great question. And under the previous administrations, the 06:37.430 --> 06:40.280 align:start National Security Division at the Justice Department would be actively involved in this. 06:40.280 --> 06:43.580 align:start But from the outset, from the time Attorney General Sessions took over - I had asked 06:43.580 --> 06:47.720 align:start sources within the National Security Division and it was clear - Russia was not a 06:47.720 --> 06:51.860 align:start priority. Then, he had to, of course, recuse himself from the ongoing Russia probe. 06:51.860 --> 06:54.810 align:start Then Rod Rosenstein handed it off to the special counsel. 06:54.810 --> 06:58.210 align:start So right now, it really seems like a lot of the leadership is either Mueller 06:58.210 --> 07:01.950 align:start investigating, and handing it off to Rod Rosenstein to sort of prosecute anything that 07:01.950 --> 07:06.000 align:start they find, or the FBI. That's why you saw the FBI chief there. But, yeah, Attorney 07:06.000 --> 07:09.410 align:start General Jeff Sessions, I have not seen any leadership on his part on this issue. 07:09.410 --> 07:12.910 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So, wait, where is the FBI in looking at what's happening with Russian 07:12.910 --> 07:15.830 align:start interference this year, in the next few months? 07:15.830 --> 07:19.860 align:start PAULA REID: Well, the FBI director came out and he talked specifically about these two - 07:19.860 --> 07:23.000 align:start these sort of two different levels, that we all kind of know about. This was nothing 07:23.000 --> 07:26.300 align:start new, right? There's the disinformation campaign, and then there are the physical 07:26.300 --> 07:29.620 align:start intrusions - the attempt to either break into voting machines or, more likely, 07:29.620 --> 07:33.570 align:start voter databases. He said, we're looking at that. But also, interestingly, he also 07:33.570 --> 07:38.220 align:start said that they are investigating possible campaign finance violations. And that's 07:38.220 --> 07:41.400 align:start something new and I think something - definitely a thread we want to keep pulling on. 07:41.400 --> 07:44.260 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Is this the traditional Republican Party who's inside of this 07:44.260 --> 07:48.360 align:start administration, like Senator Coats, who's now Director Coats, just rearing its head 07:48.360 --> 07:51.510 align:start inside and saying: Well, the president may have one different view, but we're just going 07:51.510 --> 07:54.100 align:start to continue to articulate our own? 07:54.100 --> 07:57.500 align:start MOLLY BALL: In a way, that is what it is, or some might even call it the deep state. 07:57.500 --> 08:02.290 align:start Or the - but, you know, the moderate Republican Party really was built on the Cold War 08:02.290 --> 08:08.900 align:start and opposition to the Soviet empire. And so there is very deep antagonism to Russia and 08:08.900 --> 08:14.560 align:start to this foreign - long-time foreign adversary within the Russia hawks of the Republican 08:14.560 --> 08:18.940 align:start Party. People like John Bolton. But also, you know, people like Dan Coats, others in 08:18.940 --> 08:22.600 align:start the intelligence and national security apparatus. It's not ideological. 08:22.600 --> 08:25.890 align:start It's based on what's actually happening. It's based on what they're seeing happen. 08:25.890 --> 08:29.860 align:start And what I think this week brought into such sharp relief is up till now I think we have 08:29.860 --> 08:35.320 align:start tended to think of the Russia probe as a mostly retrospective affair, looking back on 08:35.320 --> 08:38.280 align:start 2016, looking back on what was already done. 08:38.280 --> 08:43.180 align:start This is something - this week really showed that this is - how intensely ongoing this is, 08:43.180 --> 08:48.420 align:start with also the Facebook announcement that they are actively investigating this. 08:48.420 --> 08:52.380 align:start And it was also telling that it was Facebook that was self-policing on that. 08:52.380 --> 08:56.590 align:start It wasn't the authorities that were coming forward in the first place to say: Here is 08:56.590 --> 09:00.530 align:start what we're finding, this disinformation that's coming out right now. 09:00.530 --> 09:06.480 align:start So I think, you know, if what Trump - if Trump's strategy has been to cozy up to Putin 09:06.480 --> 09:11.540 align:start to defuse the antagonism between the United States and Russia, I think what this shows is 09:11.540 --> 09:16.080 align:start that it has not at all called off the dogs, and Russia's attacks are continuing. 09:16.080 --> 09:19.270 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: And there was one really important signal in that briefing. 09:19.270 --> 09:24.410 align:start General Nakasone, who heads the Cyber Command and also the National Security Agency, he 09:24.410 --> 09:30.700 align:start suggested that they are ready to go on offense against Russia, against any adversaries. 09:30.700 --> 09:34.250 align:start And there are some signals that that may - that order, which has to come from the 09:34.250 --> 09:38.960 align:start president and hadn't been done yet, we're told - that might be coming. 09:38.960 --> 09:42.840 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Is this a strategy, Peter, from the president? Or is it an emotional 09:42.840 --> 09:47.320 align:start response, when he takes this different tack than his own - his own administration? 09:47.320 --> 09:50.250 align:start PETER BAKER: You know, or a year and a half now we've been asking that question on so 09:50.250 --> 09:53.960 align:start many topics when it comes to this president: Is it a strategy or is it, like, impulse 09:53.960 --> 09:57.060 align:start control issues? And it's really hard to actually pin it down. 09:57.060 --> 10:01.500 align:start I think we tend to look for strategy - (laughs) - more often than perhaps it might exist. 10:01.500 --> 10:04.000 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Well, what would the strategy be, if there was one here? 10:04.000 --> 10:07.090 align:start PETER BAKER: Well, look, you know, it's not - it wouldn't be the first president who 10:07.090 --> 10:10.040 align:start tried to keep things at a reasonable level, leader to leader, while you allow your 10:10.040 --> 10:13.930 align:start government to take actions to counter an adversary. I mean, certainly George W. 10:13.930 --> 10:17.990 align:start Bush and Barack Obama weren't wagging their fingers in Putin's face. 10:17.990 --> 10:21.980 align:start They - and particularly Bush early on when he had great hope for making Putin more of an 10:21.980 --> 10:26.040 align:start ally - they would state their differences, but they would say it politely and they 10:26.040 --> 10:31.010 align:start wouldn't - you know, they weren't openly confrontational, per se. That's changed over 10:31.010 --> 10:35.380 align:start time, as Putin has become clearer and clearer as an adversary. So that's not 10:35.380 --> 10:41.050 align:start necessarily new. What's different is that Trump doesn't go just politely to Putin. 10:41.050 --> 10:45.030 align:start He seems to be catering toward him. He seems to be kowtowing at times to him. 10:45.030 --> 10:48.610 align:start That's certainly what a lot of Republicans think, anyway. And that seems, to a lot 10:48.610 --> 10:52.060 align:start of people, to be curious. Why is that? Why would you go so over the top in 10:52.060 --> 10:56.970 align:start flattering a guy who's clearly out to, you know, sabotage American democracy? 10:56.970 --> 11:00.690 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So one of the reasons this all happened, Molly, is because the president 11:00.690 --> 11:04.640 align:start has his cloud, he calls it, the cloud of the Russia investigation hanging over him. 11:04.640 --> 11:08.790 align:start And he took some new steps this week. He tweeted earlier - a few days ago. 11:08.790 --> 11:13.020 align:start This is, quote, "a terrible situation and Attorney General Jeff Sessions should stop this 11:13.020 --> 11:18.160 align:start Rigged Witch Hunt right now, before it continues to stain our country any further." Yet, 11:18.160 --> 11:21.780 align:start as the president tweets, his lawyers, such as former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, are 11:21.780 --> 11:27.530 align:start engaged in negotiations with Special Counsel Robert Mueller about a presidential sit-down. 11:27.530 --> 11:31.220 align:start RUDY GIULIANI (attorney for President Trump): (From video.) I'm not going to give you a 11:31.220 --> 11:34.810 align:start lot of hope it's going to happen, but we're still negotiating. 11:34.810 --> 11:38.530 align:start ROBERT COSTA: We've been here for weeks now, with Giuliani pushing the deadline up on 11:38.530 --> 11:42.850 align:start this decision about an interview. But you think about the president right now. He's facing 11:42.850 --> 11:46.530 align:start this question over an interview. He's facing all these different challenges on the 11:46.530 --> 11:49.600 align:start Russia probe. How is that influencing what's happening on Russia? 11:49.600 --> 11:52.930 align:start MOLLY BALL: Well, I think it's always been obvious that the crux of this, for the 11:52.930 --> 11:57.970 align:start president, is his own feeling of victimization, and the idea that this is, as he calls 11:57.970 --> 12:01.810 align:start it, a rigged witch hunt. But it is all directed at him. The investigation isn't 12:01.810 --> 12:06.210 align:start actually of him. It is an investigation of Russian meddling in the 2016 election. 12:06.210 --> 12:10.860 align:start Whether or not that comes to involve him - and as his defenders always point out it has 12:10.860 --> 12:15.380 align:start not yet directly implicated him. And yet, he takes everything personally. 12:15.380 --> 12:19.200 align:start This is one of his chief personality characteristics, I think you should - you could say. 12:19.200 --> 12:23.660 align:start And so he sees everything through the prism of himself being targeted. 12:23.660 --> 12:30.980 align:start I think there is - suppose it is the case that Trump is completely innocent of 12:30.980 --> 12:37.020 align:start absolutely anything having to do with anything Russia, anything in 2016, and this - and 12:37.020 --> 12:42.340 align:start when he refers to a cloud, he's just saying these suspicions, these unfounded suspicions, 12:42.340 --> 12:47.720 align:start have made it difficult for him to operate as president, to do his job, to govern, to 12:47.720 --> 12:52.580 align:start create normal relations with all kinds of different countries, because of this suspicion. 12:52.580 --> 12:58.960 align:start And so that is the case that his defenders would make. Nonetheless, the continued - I 12:58.960 --> 13:03.440 align:start think any lawyer would tell their client in this situation: Don't keep talking about the 13:03.440 --> 13:08.330 align:start investigation. Don't keep - especially when you are, you know, the boss of these people, 13:08.330 --> 13:11.610 align:start don't put pressure on them like this. Even if you don't actually mean that 13:11.610 --> 13:15.160 align:start as a directive to stop the investigation, it looks that way. 13:15.160 --> 13:19.310 align:start PETER BAKER: Well, if - and we saw recently reports that Mueller is looking at previous 13:19.310 --> 13:23.550 align:start tweets and statements as perhaps adding up to a pattern that could amount to obstruction 13:23.550 --> 13:27.610 align:start of justice. President Trump just handed him one more piece of evidence. If that's in fact 13:27.610 --> 13:31.030 align:start a case he's building, he's building it with one more brick thanks to the president this week. 13:31.030 --> 13:34.260 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Paula, you've studied his depositions - the president's depositions when 13:34.260 --> 13:38.760 align:start he was a businessman. Does he change his style from the President Trump we know 13:38.760 --> 13:41.630 align:start when he actually sits down for these sorts of interviews? 13:41.630 --> 13:44.420 align:start PAULA REID: Absolutely. He is the consummate executive. He's been through this a lot. 13:44.420 --> 13:48.540 align:start It is interesting to read his depositions or listen to them because he understood the 13:48.540 --> 13:52.100 align:start game. He deferred to his attorneys, his answers were very tight, he demonstrated a 13:52.100 --> 13:56.640 align:start very nuanced understanding of his business, and there wasn't a lot of emotion. 13:56.640 --> 13:58.890 align:start So you watch this back and forth between him and his lawyers. 13:58.890 --> 14:01.690 align:start He says I would love to testify; his lawyers go, oh, I don't know if that's such a good 14:01.690 --> 14:03.990 align:start idea for you to sit down for an interview. 14:03.990 --> 14:06.130 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So maybe he will testify at this point. 14:06.130 --> 14:08.970 align:start PAULA REID: Maybe he will. But if he truly believes in sort of a very expansive 14:08.970 --> 14:12.210 align:start definition of executive power and he truly believes that he did nothing wrong and 14:12.210 --> 14:15.340 align:start he will stick to the truth, there may not be as much risk as his attorneys believe. 14:15.340 --> 14:18.780 align:start But he is exposed on obstruction of justice and potentially lying, as anyone would be. 14:18.780 --> 14:22.760 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: And the exposure also, the meeting in Trump Tower with him just one 14:22.760 --> 14:28.510 align:start floor away, the proximity with his son Don Jr., just all of the patterns of behavior, the 14:28.510 --> 14:35.040 align:start memo that he was involved in authoring, and all of the other witnesses that have been collected, 14:35.040 --> 14:39.990 align:start you have to believe that Mueller has been collecting a lot of evidence to that matter. 14:39.990 --> 14:42.720 align:start ROBERT COSTA: When are we going to hear - when are we going to hear more about it, 14:42.720 --> 14:44.950 align:start Andrea? When is this report going to be issued? 14:44.950 --> 14:47.370 align:start It is going to be - come before the election or after the election? 14:47.370 --> 14:49.650 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: Well, I think it has to come, something. 14:49.650 --> 14:54.030 align:start There's a lot of pressure for Mueller to deliver this month, in fact, or shortly after 14:54.030 --> 14:59.280 align:start Labor Day, because there's a lot of practice - and certainly it was reinforced by the 14:59.280 --> 15:03.360 align:start inspector general report against what Comey did to Hillary Clinton - that there should be 15:03.360 --> 15:09.140 align:start a blackout period of anything involving election cases. And so he would be reporting to 15:09.140 --> 15:13.900 align:start Rod Rosenstein, the deputy AG, who would then be deciding what to release and what not. 15:13.900 --> 15:19.670 align:start There could be an unindicted co-conspirator. There could be, you know, any manner of 15:19.670 --> 15:24.310 align:start reports that come out of this, but something. And it could be a partial report. 15:24.310 --> 15:28.750 align:start PAULA REID: I would be surprised if we get a report this month because the special 15:28.750 --> 15:32.250 align:start counsel's office continues to exist through any prosecution, and we know Manafort has 15:32.250 --> 15:36.810 align:start trial number two in September. You take that through any appeals. It would be surprising 15:36.810 --> 15:41.230 align:start to me if he releases a report. I don't know that he necessarily feels the pressure about 15:41.230 --> 15:46.100 align:start the midterms. And then Rosenstein has this decision to make. 15:46.100 --> 15:50.520 align:start He has to decide: Do I make this public and fall into the exact same situation that Comey 15:50.520 --> 15:55.470 align:start fell into, or do I hand it off to Congress, let them decide, or do I put it in a drawer? 15:55.470 --> 15:59.740 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Talking about the pressure of the midterms, when you think about what Bob 15:59.740 --> 16:03.290 align:start Mueller's facing right now, he has - he has the timing issue, but so does President Trump 16:03.290 --> 16:07.710 align:start have the pressure of the midterms on his shoulders. Is that the reason the president 16:07.710 --> 16:12.200 align:start hasn't actually pulled the trigger and fired Mueller or fired Rosenstein, because he's 16:12.200 --> 16:16.520 align:start hearing from his own party that it would be a political disaster for the GOP if it 16:16.520 --> 16:20.910 align:start actually went over the line - that they're OK with his tweets to a point? 16:20.910 --> 16:26.700 align:start MOLLY BALL: That may be part of it. I think he does heed the warnings that it would 16:26.700 --> 16:30.970 align:start be a political disaster for him personally. I think he is less concerned, frankly, 16:30.970 --> 16:35.720 align:start about the fortunes of other politicians. He's mostly concerned about himself. 16:35.720 --> 16:39.300 align:start And even with the midterms, what we've heard from our reporting is he's concerned with 16:39.300 --> 16:44.320 align:start Republicans losing the House and Senate only to the extent that it may impede his agenda, 16:44.320 --> 16:50.660 align:start his ability to get things done, or his ability to not be buried in investigations by a 16:50.660 --> 16:52.970 align:start Democratic Congress. 16:52.970 --> 16:58.370 align:start So he's concerned primarily, I think, with his own room to maneuver, but he has heard 16:58.370 --> 17:02.810 align:start from a lot of people - and I think it's true - that firing Mueller would be a red line 17:02.810 --> 17:08.940 align:start that a lot of Republicans, especially in the Senate, would actually get up and do 17:08.940 --> 17:13.200 align:start something about. Now, they haven't yet, and they've had plenty of opportunities. Who knows? 17:13.200 --> 17:15.420 align:start ROBERT COSTA: They certainly have not yet. 17:15.420 --> 17:18.810 align:start But inside the White House, Peter, quick, is John Kelly, who just announced on Monday 17:18.810 --> 17:22.660 align:start he's going to stay through 2020 - we'll see if that happens, but he says he will - is he 17:22.660 --> 17:26.050 align:start the one pulling the president back from going after Rosenstein or Mueller? 17:26.050 --> 17:28.490 align:start PETER BAKER: No, I think actually - I think Molly's right about this. 17:28.490 --> 17:32.260 align:start I think, you know, he has crossed every line that other presidents would have respected 17:32.260 --> 17:35.170 align:start when it comes to this kind of thing, when it comes to the independence of the law 17:35.170 --> 17:39.160 align:start enforcement apparatus, but that is one line he has stayed on the wrong - this side of 17:39.160 --> 17:43.340 align:start because he does see it as potentially dangerous to himself, because he does see that as 17:43.340 --> 17:47.470 align:start being a backlash that he has been told that would be even worse after he fired Jim Comey. 17:47.470 --> 17:51.260 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Let's turn to the Manafort trial, which began at a federal courthouse in 17:51.260 --> 17:55.660 align:start Alexandria, Virginia, this week. Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman and 17:55.660 --> 18:01.130 align:start longtime lobbyist, is facing tax and bank fraud charges. His international wire 18:01.130 --> 18:05.030 align:start transfers are being scrutinized by prosecutors. Paula has been in the courtroom all 18:05.030 --> 18:10.320 align:start week, where they don't allow cameras or computers, just notebooks - old school. 18:10.320 --> 18:13.310 align:start Where is the prosecution going right now with this? 18:13.310 --> 18:16.600 align:start PAULA REID: Their theory of the case is that Manafort made tens of millions of dollars 18:16.600 --> 18:20.710 align:start lobbying on behalf of Ukrainian officials, but instead of having his paycheck sent to one 18:20.710 --> 18:25.210 align:start of his six or seven homes they went to offshore accounts. And then, the prosecutors 18:25.210 --> 18:29.620 align:start allege, that he got that money into the U.S. by laundering it through these luxury 18:29.620 --> 18:34.940 align:start purchases - expensive cars, homes, and this now-infamous ostrich coat. (Laughter.) 18:34.940 --> 18:39.120 align:start And that's their theory of the case. That's how he was trying to avoid tax reporting 18:39.120 --> 18:43.040 align:start requirements. So they've put - they've put on the stand vendors and they asked them, 18:43.040 --> 18:46.960 align:start is it - is it common for someone to pay for their ostrich coat through a wire transfer 18:46.960 --> 18:51.260 align:start from Cyprus. Of course, the answer is no. And then they put on his accountants, 18:51.260 --> 18:54.240 align:start who talked about how they didn't know about these offshore accounts. 18:54.240 --> 18:58.780 align:start ROBERT COSTA: So we're learning a lot about Paul Manafort, his finances, but is this really 18:58.780 --> 19:04.830 align:start about getting Manafort to flip and talk about President Trump, talk about the Trump campaign? 19:04.830 --> 19:09.730 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: I'm not so sure because he has been resilient in refusing, especially 19:09.730 --> 19:14.390 align:start having been locked up and gone through all of the indignities and, you know, the trial 19:14.390 --> 19:20.140 align:start itself. I think this has a Russia undertone in that what they are hoping to prove is 19:20.140 --> 19:27.830 align:start that he was completely in debt by 2016, late 2015, after the Ukrainian Russian-backed 19:27.830 --> 19:32.780 align:start leader had gone into exile in Russia. He was out of money. They were broke. 19:32.780 --> 19:37.150 align:start And he was continuing this lavish lifestyle, he was in hock, yet he volunteered his 19:37.150 --> 19:41.850 align:start services to Donald Trump. So he had all these Russian connections and all these offshore 19:41.850 --> 19:47.060 align:start banks, and he was not being paid. How was he sustaining that, and why was he sustaining 19:47.060 --> 19:51.710 align:start that? And that is sort of the odor of Russia that permeates this trial as well. 19:51.710 --> 19:54.960 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Is he going to be pardoned? If you read a little bit into the 19:54.960 --> 20:00.000 align:start president's tweets this week, he's certainly showing some sympathy for Mr. Manafort. 20:00.000 --> 20:03.630 align:start PETER BAKER: No, he does, he does, and certainly it's possible Paul Manafort is counting 20:03.630 --> 20:07.280 align:start on there being a pardon and that's why he's standing strong and not flipping, not 20:07.280 --> 20:11.140 align:start offering anything to the special counsel if he has anything to offer. 20:11.140 --> 20:16.430 align:start The flipside is I'm not sure whether the pardon actually gets President Trump out of hock 20:16.430 --> 20:20.130 align:start if that's - if there is something there to be worried about, because if you give a pardon 20:20.130 --> 20:23.310 align:start to Paul Manafort - and Paula probably knows this better than I do; I'm not a lawyer - but 20:23.310 --> 20:28.500 align:start if you pardon Paul Manafort, then he has no - he has no ability to refuse to testify. 20:28.500 --> 20:32.240 align:start Then Robert Mueller can put him on the stand and say you now have to testify because 20:32.240 --> 20:36.180 align:start you've been pardoned. You can't claim the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination 20:36.180 --> 20:39.520 align:start if you don't face any criminal liability; you have to tell us about Donald Trump. 20:39.520 --> 20:42.190 align:start So that could be - that could backfire on the president. 20:42.190 --> 20:45.190 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Molly, you've been writing cover stories for TIME on Democrats this year. 20:45.190 --> 20:48.150 align:start Why aren't they bringing up Russia more and Paul Manafort more? 20:48.150 --> 20:51.030 align:start MOLLY BALL: Well, they do in the context of Capitol Hill, right? 20:51.030 --> 20:56.300 align:start Democrats have obviously been the most outspoken in the oversight role, particularly, you 20:56.300 --> 21:00.710 align:start know, Mark Warner in the Senate, Adam Schiff in the House. They are on television 21:00.710 --> 21:04.540 align:start networks all the time talking about this and they take it very seriously, as do many 21:04.540 --> 21:09.950 align:start Republicans. As a campaign issue, the conventional wisdom of both parties has been 21:09.950 --> 21:12.260 align:start that they're better off not talking about it. 21:12.260 --> 21:16.660 align:start Republicans feel that it doesn't matter to their constituents, therefore they are not 21:16.660 --> 21:21.500 align:start motivated to speak about it, positively or negatively I suppose. 21:21.500 --> 21:25.580 align:start You don't hear them defending Trump a lot on this score; they're just avoiding it. 21:25.580 --> 21:28.740 align:start And for Democrats there's a feeling that - I think it's two things. 21:28.740 --> 21:33.620 align:start I think it's, number one, that it feels like a faraway issue, not a kitchen-table matter, 21:33.620 --> 21:37.570 align:start not something that affects the lives of the people that they're campaigning in front of. 21:37.570 --> 21:43.230 align:start And, number two, that it so permeates the news that they don't have to talk about it. 21:43.230 --> 21:47.680 align:start If there are voters who care about, you know, the threat to American democracy, the 21:47.680 --> 21:54.200 align:start threat of our Russian adversary, all of the disruptive influences that are - that are 21:54.200 --> 21:58.150 align:start coming out of this case, they're hearing about it on cable news all the time. 21:58.150 --> 22:03.720 align:start Democrats who run campaigns feel that what voters might not be hearing about is any kind 22:03.720 --> 22:07.860 align:start of positive or policy message that Democrats might have to offer. That's what's struggling 22:07.860 --> 22:11.430 align:start to break through. That's what they want to be talking about on the campaign trail. 22:11.430 --> 22:14.850 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Going back to the courtroom, Paula, as Peter said, we are glad to have 22:14.850 --> 22:19.140 align:start you, a lawyer - (laughter) - as well as a reporter, here at the table. 22:19.140 --> 22:21.900 align:start When you're sitting there in that courtroom, you're of course watching Manafort, you're 22:21.900 --> 22:24.730 align:start looking at the evidence, but you're also watching Mueller's investigators. 22:24.730 --> 22:28.900 align:start A lot's at stake for them. The judge, T.S. Ellis in this case, has raised some questions: 22:28.900 --> 22:34.160 align:start Is Mueller really in his lane with his mandate? What's at stake for Mueller right now? 22:34.160 --> 22:37.790 align:start PAULA REID: Well, this is ultimately a referendum on the special counsel investigation. 22:37.790 --> 22:41.300 align:start If he is convicted, that certainly bolsters the special counsel's case. 22:41.300 --> 22:44.400 align:start People will say, all right, this is what they were up to; they were building this very 22:44.400 --> 22:50.080 align:start specific forensing - accounting case and it turned out that a jury, who looks like a jury 22:50.080 --> 22:54.210 align:start that pays their taxes, convicted him. But if there's an acquittal or even a partial 22:54.210 --> 22:57.200 align:start acquittal, that will bolster the president and his allies who want to argue that, 22:57.200 --> 23:00.350 align:start look, this is politically motivated; he was investigated before, he wasn't charged 23:00.350 --> 23:03.760 align:start because there wasn't enough evidence, he was prosecuted this time for political 23:03.760 --> 23:07.250 align:start reasons. So there is a lot at stake here for the special counsel team. 23:07.250 --> 23:11.050 align:start ROBERT COSTA: And he's fighting a public war. Well, he's quietly fighting a public 23:11.050 --> 23:14.080 align:start war with the president. The president's mounting a war against Mueller with all of 23:14.080 --> 23:17.270 align:start his tweets and his words. Where does Mueller go from here? 23:17.270 --> 23:20.710 align:start Is it just in the courtroom in Alexandria where he's waging his battle? 23:20.710 --> 23:24.830 align:start ANDREA MITCHELL: And the next court - the next case, of course, would be in district court here in 23:24.830 --> 23:35.070 align:start D.C. where we are. Mueller, from all reports, is absolutely zeroed in and trying to, you know, 23:35.070 --> 23:41.590 align:start ignore all of this noise. But the president has, especially in the last week, been really ramping up. 23:41.590 --> 23:45.880 align:start That tweet that you quoted on Wednesday, in fact, was the most hostile and aggressive. 23:45.880 --> 23:50.540 align:start It's not true, of course, that Sessions could - because he's recused - actually fire 23:50.540 --> 23:54.780 align:start Mueller, but it was a very threatening tweet indeed. And so there are a number of things 23:54.780 --> 23:59.020 align:start that could be in play. This could be the result of these behind-the-scenes negotiations. 23:59.020 --> 24:04.060 align:start It could be the result of the Manafort attorneys sharing information that has been now 24:04.060 --> 24:09.640 align:start shared with them, as the defense needs to have access to, and that could be really 24:09.640 --> 24:12.430 align:start frightening him that it's closing in. 24:12.430 --> 24:15.780 align:start ROBERT COSTA: Well, where is this Peter? The president keeps saying at his rally after rally - 24:15.780 --> 24:19.660 align:start Tampa, Pennsylvania - this has nothing to do with me, speaking about Paul Manafort. And to a - 24:19.660 --> 24:22.190 align:start PETER BAKER: And yet, he keeps bringing it up, right? 24:22.190 --> 24:24.650 align:start If it has nothing to do with him, why does he keep talking about it? 24:24.650 --> 24:28.180 align:start And, in fact, we shouldn't let it go without commenting on the fact that his comments on 24:28.180 --> 24:32.500 align:start an ongoing trial are another line that other presidents would never have crossed. 24:32.500 --> 24:36.870 align:start The few times a president ever made a comment on an existing court case they got blasted 24:36.870 --> 24:40.680 align:start for it and they regretted it because it was seen as putting undue influence on the part 24:40.680 --> 24:44.150 align:start of the chief law enforcement officer, arguably, of the country. 24:44.150 --> 24:47.670 align:start So the fact that he's weighing in on it makes you wonder about that. 24:47.670 --> 24:51.270 align:start Now, it doesn't directly relate on him, but you know, he seemed to think it does. 24:51.270 --> 24:54.770 align:start ROBERT COSTA: We'll leave it there. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. 24:54.770 --> 24:59.610 align:start Our conversation will continue online, as ever, on the Washington Week Extra. 24:59.610 --> 25:04.080 align:start We will talk about the president and the press. You can find that later tonight at 25:04.080 --> 25:39.690 align:start PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us.