1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,380 ROBERT COSTA: Raucous rallies, defiant tweets, and a looming showdown with the special 2 00:00:05,380 --> 00:00:11,790 counsel. I'm Robert Costa. August is anything but quiet, tonight on Washington Week. 3 00:00:11,790 --> 00:00:21,170 Just hours before President Trump hosted a rally in Pennsylvania, his national security 4 00:00:21,170 --> 00:00:25,440 chiefs were sounding the alarm. 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,040 HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: (From video.) Our democracy itself is in 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,990 the crosshairs. Free and fair elections are the cornerstone of our democracy, and it 7 00:00:32,990 --> 00:00:36,010 has become clear that they are the target of our adversaries. 8 00:00:36,010 --> 00:00:40,500 ROBERT COSTA: A stark warning from the White House: Russia used and continues to use 9 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:44,050 cyber weapons to interfere in American campaigns. 10 00:00:44,050 --> 00:00:47,360 DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DAN COATS: (From video.) The intelligence community 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,080 continues to be concerned about the threats of upcoming U.S. 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,390 elections, both the midterms and the presidential elections of 2020. 13 00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:58,830 FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY: (From video.) Make no mistake: the scope of this foreign 14 00:00:58,830 --> 00:01:01,820 influence threat is both broad and deep. 15 00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:05,810 ROBERT COSTA: But the messages on Russia were not in lockstep. At the Pennsylvania 16 00:01:05,810 --> 00:01:10,700 rally, Mr. Trump maintained that he wants a better relationship with Vladimir Putin. 17 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:13,930 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I had a great meeting with Putin. 18 00:01:13,930 --> 00:01:16,670 We discussed everything. I had a great meeting. (Cheers, applause.) 19 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:21,010 By the way, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. That's a really good thing. 20 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:25,030 ROBERT COSTA: It was the latest example of the president's singular approach. 21 00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:29,770 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I have great confidence in my intelligence people, 22 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:36,510 but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. 23 00:01:36,510 --> 00:01:40,960 ROBERT COSTA: And the presidential shattering of norms extended to Special Counsel 24 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:43,990 Robert Mueller and his Russia investigation. 25 00:01:43,990 --> 00:01:47,050 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) Now, we're being hindered by the Russian hoax. 26 00:01:47,050 --> 00:01:49,420 It's a hoax, OK? 27 00:01:49,420 --> 00:01:53,440 ROBERT COSTA: It all comes as his former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, goes to trial 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,300 for federal tax and bank fraud charges. We cover it all next. 29 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:09,410 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 30 00:02:09,410 --> 00:02:15,620 ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. The week has been revealing, showing the tensions inside 31 00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:20,910 the Trump administration over Russia in the scenes that played out at the White House 32 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:25,320 and on the campaign trail. Thursday was a microcosm. 33 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,560 That morning top intelligence officials, including FBI Director Christopher Wray and 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,020 Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, appeared at the White House, and they said 35 00:02:35,020 --> 00:02:39,200 the upcoming midterm elections remain a target for Russia. 36 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,540 DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DAN COATS: (From video.) We acknowledge the threat. 37 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:47,380 It is real, it is continuing, and we're doing everything we can to have a legitimate 38 00:02:47,380 --> 00:02:52,450 election that the American people can have trust in. In addition to that, it goes 39 00:02:52,450 --> 00:02:56,750 beyond the elections. It goes to Russia's intent to undermine our democratic 40 00:02:56,750 --> 00:03:02,080 values, drive a wedge between our allies, and do a number of other nefarious things. 41 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,740 FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY: (From video.) This threat is not going away. 42 00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:10,240 As I have said consistently, Russia attempted to interfere with the last election and 43 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,050 continues to engage in malign influence operations to this day. 44 00:03:15,050 --> 00:03:20,470 ROBERT COSTA: The president did not appear alongside them, but later Thursday rallied 45 00:03:20,470 --> 00:03:25,480 his core voters in Pennsylvania. Instead, he had a great meeting - his words - with 46 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:31,100 Vladimir Putin in Helsinki and, quote, "got along really well" with the Russian president. 47 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:39,280 And he sharply criticized the Russia probe. What's next and what matters? 48 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,510 All this president and his advisors face mounting challenges. 49 00:03:44,510 --> 00:03:48,720 Joining me for tonight's conversation, Paula Reid, White House and Justice correspondent 50 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,390 for CBS News; Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times; Andrea 51 00:03:53,390 --> 00:03:58,060 Mitchell, chief foreign affairs correspondent for NBC News; and Molly Ball, national 52 00:03:58,060 --> 00:04:01,470 political reporter for TIME Magazine. 53 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:05,630 Peter, when you think about a company, when it has its executive vice presidents come 54 00:04:05,630 --> 00:04:09,620 out and say a statement, the market pays attention to what the CEO says. 55 00:04:09,620 --> 00:04:14,600 Why does it matter if President Trump's deputies come out to the White House lectern and 56 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,940 have a different message, a starker message, on Russia than him? 57 00:04:17,940 --> 00:04:21,860 PETER BAKER: Right. Not just the markets. People pay attention also in the Kremlin in 58 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:26,560 this case. And the message that they're hearing is, of course, this two-pronged approach. 59 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,930 And what matters of about this, among other things, is Vladimir Putin puts great stock in 60 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:35,920 what the leader says, what the number-one person says. That's the way he runs his country. 61 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,620 That's the way he presumes other people run their country. And that's the way, in fact, 62 00:04:39,620 --> 00:04:43,950 Donald Trump likes to run his country. So I was in Moscow for four years. I remember 63 00:04:43,950 --> 00:04:47,930 interviewing him. And when we would bring up to him criticisms of him that had been 64 00:04:47,930 --> 00:04:50,970 issued by American officials underneath the president, he would just brush it off 65 00:04:50,970 --> 00:04:54,540 saying: That's not what my friend George says. At the time, George W. Bush. 66 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:58,120 So he places great stock in what the president says, not on what Dan Coats says, not on 67 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,780 what Chris Wray says. What those people are talking to is a different audience. 68 00:05:01,780 --> 00:05:05,060 They're talking to us. They're talking to people who actually cover this issue or 69 00:05:05,060 --> 00:05:09,690 care about democracy issues and are worried about Russia. They're trying to say: We 70 00:05:09,690 --> 00:05:13,170 actually do take this seriously. Don't pay attention to the president. But that's an 71 00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:16,470 extraordinary thing for a government in which you had this bifurcated policy. 72 00:05:16,470 --> 00:05:18,800 ANDREA MITCHELL: There's another issue as well. 73 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,470 You correctly point out - you know better than anyone how Putin sees this. But the 74 00:05:22,470 --> 00:05:26,250 rest of government - bureaucracies don't move unless there's leadership from the top. 75 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:31,610 The fact is that they had their one and only meeting at the, you know, presidential level 76 00:05:31,610 --> 00:05:36,560 last Friday, just a week ago, and it was less than an hour devoted to the whole issue of 77 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,560 Russia and its attack on the election, and its continuing attack. 78 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,400 And that was two to three weeks after Dan Coats had warned publicly at the Hudson 79 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,560 Institute that the red lights were blinking and it was the, you know, most important, 80 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:57,520 urgent warning since the 9/11 pre-warnings about terror, in the area of cyberspace. 81 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:02,400 We've been told that the Senate Intelligence Committee has been told that in fact they 82 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,440 are - the Russians are into our electric grid, they're into our infrastructure, to say 83 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:11,690 nothing of the propaganda, the false and malign information that was outlined, at least 84 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:17,510 alleged, in the Mueller indictments. So the fact that the president has not led a 85 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:21,790 meeting or signaled the importance of this - and keeps denying it out on the campaign 86 00:06:21,790 --> 00:06:25,730 trail and contradicting them - is sending a signal it doesn't matter. 87 00:06:25,730 --> 00:06:29,660 And until he shows that it matters to him, it's not going to get fixed. 88 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:31,810 ROBERT COSTA: It wasn't just the president there, Paula. 89 00:06:31,810 --> 00:06:34,210 Where was Attorney General Jeff Sessions? 90 00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:37,430 PAULA REID: That's a great question. And under the previous administrations, the 91 00:06:37,430 --> 00:06:40,280 National Security Division at the Justice Department would be actively involved in this. 92 00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:43,580 But from the outset, from the time Attorney General Sessions took over - I had asked 93 00:06:43,580 --> 00:06:47,720 sources within the National Security Division and it was clear - Russia was not a 94 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,860 priority. Then, he had to, of course, recuse himself from the ongoing Russia probe. 95 00:06:51,860 --> 00:06:54,810 Then Rod Rosenstein handed it off to the special counsel. 96 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:58,210 So right now, it really seems like a lot of the leadership is either Mueller 97 00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:01,950 investigating, and handing it off to Rod Rosenstein to sort of prosecute anything that 98 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:06,000 they find, or the FBI. That's why you saw the FBI chief there. But, yeah, Attorney 99 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,410 General Jeff Sessions, I have not seen any leadership on his part on this issue. 100 00:07:09,410 --> 00:07:12,910 ROBERT COSTA: So, wait, where is the FBI in looking at what's happening with Russian 101 00:07:12,910 --> 00:07:15,830 interference this year, in the next few months? 102 00:07:15,830 --> 00:07:19,860 PAULA REID: Well, the FBI director came out and he talked specifically about these two - 103 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:23,000 these sort of two different levels, that we all kind of know about. This was nothing 104 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,300 new, right? There's the disinformation campaign, and then there are the physical 105 00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:29,620 intrusions - the attempt to either break into voting machines or, more likely, 106 00:07:29,620 --> 00:07:33,570 voter databases. He said, we're looking at that. But also, interestingly, he also 107 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:38,220 said that they are investigating possible campaign finance violations. And that's 108 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:41,400 something new and I think something - definitely a thread we want to keep pulling on. 109 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,260 ROBERT COSTA: Is this the traditional Republican Party who's inside of this 110 00:07:44,260 --> 00:07:48,360 administration, like Senator Coats, who's now Director Coats, just rearing its head 111 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,510 inside and saying: Well, the president may have one different view, but we're just going 112 00:07:51,510 --> 00:07:54,100 to continue to articulate our own? 113 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,500 MOLLY BALL: In a way, that is what it is, or some might even call it the deep state. 114 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:02,290 Or the - but, you know, the moderate Republican Party really was built on the Cold War 115 00:08:02,290 --> 00:08:08,900 and opposition to the Soviet empire. And so there is very deep antagonism to Russia and 116 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:14,560 to this foreign - long-time foreign adversary within the Russia hawks of the Republican 117 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,940 Party. People like John Bolton. But also, you know, people like Dan Coats, others in 118 00:08:18,940 --> 00:08:22,600 the intelligence and national security apparatus. It's not ideological. 119 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,890 It's based on what's actually happening. It's based on what they're seeing happen. 120 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:29,860 And what I think this week brought into such sharp relief is up till now I think we have 121 00:08:29,860 --> 00:08:35,320 tended to think of the Russia probe as a mostly retrospective affair, looking back on 122 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,280 2016, looking back on what was already done. 123 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,180 This is something - this week really showed that this is - how intensely ongoing this is, 124 00:08:43,180 --> 00:08:48,420 with also the Facebook announcement that they are actively investigating this. 125 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:52,380 And it was also telling that it was Facebook that was self-policing on that. 126 00:08:52,380 --> 00:08:56,590 It wasn't the authorities that were coming forward in the first place to say: Here is 127 00:08:56,590 --> 00:09:00,530 what we're finding, this disinformation that's coming out right now. 128 00:09:00,530 --> 00:09:06,480 So I think, you know, if what Trump - if Trump's strategy has been to cozy up to Putin 129 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,540 to defuse the antagonism between the United States and Russia, I think what this shows is 130 00:09:11,540 --> 00:09:16,080 that it has not at all called off the dogs, and Russia's attacks are continuing. 131 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,270 ANDREA MITCHELL: And there was one really important signal in that briefing. 132 00:09:19,270 --> 00:09:24,410 General Nakasone, who heads the Cyber Command and also the National Security Agency, he 133 00:09:24,410 --> 00:09:30,700 suggested that they are ready to go on offense against Russia, against any adversaries. 134 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:34,250 And there are some signals that that may - that order, which has to come from the 135 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:38,960 president and hadn't been done yet, we're told - that might be coming. 136 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,840 ROBERT COSTA: Is this a strategy, Peter, from the president? Or is it an emotional 137 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,320 response, when he takes this different tack than his own - his own administration? 138 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,250 PETER BAKER: You know, or a year and a half now we've been asking that question on so 139 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:53,960 many topics when it comes to this president: Is it a strategy or is it, like, impulse 140 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,060 control issues? And it's really hard to actually pin it down. 141 00:09:57,060 --> 00:10:01,500 I think we tend to look for strategy - (laughs) - more often than perhaps it might exist. 142 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:04,000 ROBERT COSTA: Well, what would the strategy be, if there was one here? 143 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,090 PETER BAKER: Well, look, you know, it's not - it wouldn't be the first president who 144 00:10:07,090 --> 00:10:10,040 tried to keep things at a reasonable level, leader to leader, while you allow your 145 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,930 government to take actions to counter an adversary. I mean, certainly George W. 146 00:10:13,930 --> 00:10:17,990 Bush and Barack Obama weren't wagging their fingers in Putin's face. 147 00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:21,980 They - and particularly Bush early on when he had great hope for making Putin more of an 148 00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:26,040 ally - they would state their differences, but they would say it politely and they 149 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,010 wouldn't - you know, they weren't openly confrontational, per se. That's changed over 150 00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:35,380 time, as Putin has become clearer and clearer as an adversary. So that's not 151 00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:41,050 necessarily new. What's different is that Trump doesn't go just politely to Putin. 152 00:10:41,050 --> 00:10:45,030 He seems to be catering toward him. He seems to be kowtowing at times to him. 153 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:48,610 That's certainly what a lot of Republicans think, anyway. And that seems, to a lot 154 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:52,060 of people, to be curious. Why is that? Why would you go so over the top in 155 00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:56,970 flattering a guy who's clearly out to, you know, sabotage American democracy? 156 00:10:56,970 --> 00:11:00,690 ROBERT COSTA: So one of the reasons this all happened, Molly, is because the president 157 00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:04,640 has his cloud, he calls it, the cloud of the Russia investigation hanging over him. 158 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,790 And he took some new steps this week. He tweeted earlier - a few days ago. 159 00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:13,020 This is, quote, "a terrible situation and Attorney General Jeff Sessions should stop this 160 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:18,160 Rigged Witch Hunt right now, before it continues to stain our country any further." Yet, 161 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,780 as the president tweets, his lawyers, such as former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, are 162 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:27,530 engaged in negotiations with Special Counsel Robert Mueller about a presidential sit-down. 163 00:11:27,530 --> 00:11:31,220 RUDY GIULIANI (attorney for President Trump): (From video.) I'm not going to give you a 164 00:11:31,220 --> 00:11:34,810 lot of hope it's going to happen, but we're still negotiating. 165 00:11:34,810 --> 00:11:38,530 ROBERT COSTA: We've been here for weeks now, with Giuliani pushing the deadline up on 166 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:42,850 this decision about an interview. But you think about the president right now. He's facing 167 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:46,530 this question over an interview. He's facing all these different challenges on the 168 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:49,600 Russia probe. How is that influencing what's happening on Russia? 169 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,930 MOLLY BALL: Well, I think it's always been obvious that the crux of this, for the 170 00:11:52,930 --> 00:11:57,970 president, is his own feeling of victimization, and the idea that this is, as he calls 171 00:11:57,970 --> 00:12:01,810 it, a rigged witch hunt. But it is all directed at him. The investigation isn't 172 00:12:01,810 --> 00:12:06,210 actually of him. It is an investigation of Russian meddling in the 2016 election. 173 00:12:06,210 --> 00:12:10,860 Whether or not that comes to involve him - and as his defenders always point out it has 174 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:15,380 not yet directly implicated him. And yet, he takes everything personally. 175 00:12:15,380 --> 00:12:19,200 This is one of his chief personality characteristics, I think you should - you could say. 176 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,660 And so he sees everything through the prism of himself being targeted. 177 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:30,980 I think there is - suppose it is the case that Trump is completely innocent of 178 00:12:30,980 --> 00:12:37,020 absolutely anything having to do with anything Russia, anything in 2016, and this - and 179 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:42,340 when he refers to a cloud, he's just saying these suspicions, these unfounded suspicions, 180 00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:47,720 have made it difficult for him to operate as president, to do his job, to govern, to 181 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,580 create normal relations with all kinds of different countries, because of this suspicion. 182 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:58,960 And so that is the case that his defenders would make. Nonetheless, the continued - I 183 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,440 think any lawyer would tell their client in this situation: Don't keep talking about the 184 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,330 investigation. Don't keep - especially when you are, you know, the boss of these people, 185 00:13:08,330 --> 00:13:11,610 don't put pressure on them like this. Even if you don't actually mean that 186 00:13:11,610 --> 00:13:15,160 as a directive to stop the investigation, it looks that way. 187 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,310 PETER BAKER: Well, if - and we saw recently reports that Mueller is looking at previous 188 00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:23,550 tweets and statements as perhaps adding up to a pattern that could amount to obstruction 189 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:27,610 of justice. President Trump just handed him one more piece of evidence. If that's in fact 190 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:31,030 a case he's building, he's building it with one more brick thanks to the president this week. 191 00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:34,260 ROBERT COSTA: Paula, you've studied his depositions - the president's depositions when 192 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:38,760 he was a businessman. Does he change his style from the President Trump we know 193 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,630 when he actually sits down for these sorts of interviews? 194 00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:44,420 PAULA REID: Absolutely. He is the consummate executive. He's been through this a lot. 195 00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:48,540 It is interesting to read his depositions or listen to them because he understood the 196 00:13:48,540 --> 00:13:52,100 game. He deferred to his attorneys, his answers were very tight, he demonstrated a 197 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:56,640 very nuanced understanding of his business, and there wasn't a lot of emotion. 198 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,890 So you watch this back and forth between him and his lawyers. 199 00:13:58,890 --> 00:14:01,690 He says I would love to testify; his lawyers go, oh, I don't know if that's such a good 200 00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:03,990 idea for you to sit down for an interview. 201 00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:06,130 ROBERT COSTA: So maybe he will testify at this point. 202 00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:08,970 PAULA REID: Maybe he will. But if he truly believes in sort of a very expansive 203 00:14:08,970 --> 00:14:12,210 definition of executive power and he truly believes that he did nothing wrong and 204 00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:15,340 he will stick to the truth, there may not be as much risk as his attorneys believe. 205 00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:18,780 But he is exposed on obstruction of justice and potentially lying, as anyone would be. 206 00:14:18,780 --> 00:14:22,760 ANDREA MITCHELL: And the exposure also, the meeting in Trump Tower with him just one 207 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:28,510 floor away, the proximity with his son Don Jr., just all of the patterns of behavior, the 208 00:14:28,510 --> 00:14:35,040 memo that he was involved in authoring, and all of the other witnesses that have been collected, 209 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,990 you have to believe that Mueller has been collecting a lot of evidence to that matter. 210 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:42,720 ROBERT COSTA: When are we going to hear - when are we going to hear more about it, 211 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,950 Andrea? When is this report going to be issued? 212 00:14:44,950 --> 00:14:47,370 It is going to be - come before the election or after the election? 213 00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:49,650 ANDREA MITCHELL: Well, I think it has to come, something. 214 00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:54,030 There's a lot of pressure for Mueller to deliver this month, in fact, or shortly after 215 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:59,280 Labor Day, because there's a lot of practice - and certainly it was reinforced by the 216 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,360 inspector general report against what Comey did to Hillary Clinton - that there should be 217 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:09,140 a blackout period of anything involving election cases. And so he would be reporting to 218 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:13,900 Rod Rosenstein, the deputy AG, who would then be deciding what to release and what not. 219 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:19,670 There could be an unindicted co-conspirator. There could be, you know, any manner of 220 00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:24,310 reports that come out of this, but something. And it could be a partial report. 221 00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:28,750 PAULA REID: I would be surprised if we get a report this month because the special 222 00:15:28,750 --> 00:15:32,250 counsel's office continues to exist through any prosecution, and we know Manafort has 223 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:36,810 trial number two in September. You take that through any appeals. It would be surprising 224 00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:41,230 to me if he releases a report. I don't know that he necessarily feels the pressure about 225 00:15:41,230 --> 00:15:46,100 the midterms. And then Rosenstein has this decision to make. 226 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:50,520 He has to decide: Do I make this public and fall into the exact same situation that Comey 227 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,470 fell into, or do I hand it off to Congress, let them decide, or do I put it in a drawer? 228 00:15:55,470 --> 00:15:59,740 ROBERT COSTA: Talking about the pressure of the midterms, when you think about what Bob 229 00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:03,290 Mueller's facing right now, he has - he has the timing issue, but so does President Trump 230 00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:07,710 have the pressure of the midterms on his shoulders. Is that the reason the president 231 00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:12,200 hasn't actually pulled the trigger and fired Mueller or fired Rosenstein, because he's 232 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,520 hearing from his own party that it would be a political disaster for the GOP if it 233 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,910 actually went over the line - that they're OK with his tweets to a point? 234 00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:26,700 MOLLY BALL: That may be part of it. I think he does heed the warnings that it would 235 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:30,970 be a political disaster for him personally. I think he is less concerned, frankly, 236 00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:35,720 about the fortunes of other politicians. He's mostly concerned about himself. 237 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,300 And even with the midterms, what we've heard from our reporting is he's concerned with 238 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:44,320 Republicans losing the House and Senate only to the extent that it may impede his agenda, 239 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:50,660 his ability to get things done, or his ability to not be buried in investigations by a 240 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:52,970 Democratic Congress. 241 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:58,370 So he's concerned primarily, I think, with his own room to maneuver, but he has heard 242 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:02,810 from a lot of people - and I think it's true - that firing Mueller would be a red line 243 00:17:02,810 --> 00:17:08,940 that a lot of Republicans, especially in the Senate, would actually get up and do 244 00:17:08,940 --> 00:17:13,200 something about. Now, they haven't yet, and they've had plenty of opportunities. Who knows? 245 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,420 ROBERT COSTA: They certainly have not yet. 246 00:17:15,420 --> 00:17:18,810 But inside the White House, Peter, quick, is John Kelly, who just announced on Monday 247 00:17:18,810 --> 00:17:22,660 he's going to stay through 2020 - we'll see if that happens, but he says he will - is he 248 00:17:22,660 --> 00:17:26,050 the one pulling the president back from going after Rosenstein or Mueller? 249 00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:28,490 PETER BAKER: No, I think actually - I think Molly's right about this. 250 00:17:28,490 --> 00:17:32,260 I think, you know, he has crossed every line that other presidents would have respected 251 00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:35,170 when it comes to this kind of thing, when it comes to the independence of the law 252 00:17:35,170 --> 00:17:39,160 enforcement apparatus, but that is one line he has stayed on the wrong - this side of 253 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,340 because he does see it as potentially dangerous to himself, because he does see that as 254 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:47,470 being a backlash that he has been told that would be even worse after he fired Jim Comey. 255 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:51,260 ROBERT COSTA: Let's turn to the Manafort trial, which began at a federal courthouse in 256 00:17:51,260 --> 00:17:55,660 Alexandria, Virginia, this week. Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman and 257 00:17:55,660 --> 00:18:01,130 longtime lobbyist, is facing tax and bank fraud charges. His international wire 258 00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:05,030 transfers are being scrutinized by prosecutors. Paula has been in the courtroom all 259 00:18:05,030 --> 00:18:10,320 week, where they don't allow cameras or computers, just notebooks - old school. 260 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,310 Where is the prosecution going right now with this? 261 00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:16,600 PAULA REID: Their theory of the case is that Manafort made tens of millions of dollars 262 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,710 lobbying on behalf of Ukrainian officials, but instead of having his paycheck sent to one 263 00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:25,210 of his six or seven homes they went to offshore accounts. And then, the prosecutors 264 00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:29,620 allege, that he got that money into the U.S. by laundering it through these luxury 265 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:34,940 purchases - expensive cars, homes, and this now-infamous ostrich coat. (Laughter.) 266 00:18:34,940 --> 00:18:39,120 And that's their theory of the case. That's how he was trying to avoid tax reporting 267 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,040 requirements. So they've put - they've put on the stand vendors and they asked them, 268 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,960 is it - is it common for someone to pay for their ostrich coat through a wire transfer 269 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,260 from Cyprus. Of course, the answer is no. And then they put on his accountants, 270 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:54,240 who talked about how they didn't know about these offshore accounts. 271 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,780 ROBERT COSTA: So we're learning a lot about Paul Manafort, his finances, but is this really 272 00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:04,830 about getting Manafort to flip and talk about President Trump, talk about the Trump campaign? 273 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:09,730 ANDREA MITCHELL: I'm not so sure because he has been resilient in refusing, especially 274 00:19:09,730 --> 00:19:14,390 having been locked up and gone through all of the indignities and, you know, the trial 275 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:20,140 itself. I think this has a Russia undertone in that what they are hoping to prove is 276 00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:27,830 that he was completely in debt by 2016, late 2015, after the Ukrainian Russian-backed 277 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:32,780 leader had gone into exile in Russia. He was out of money. They were broke. 278 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:37,150 And he was continuing this lavish lifestyle, he was in hock, yet he volunteered his 279 00:19:37,150 --> 00:19:41,850 services to Donald Trump. So he had all these Russian connections and all these offshore 280 00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:47,060 banks, and he was not being paid. How was he sustaining that, and why was he sustaining 281 00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:51,710 that? And that is sort of the odor of Russia that permeates this trial as well. 282 00:19:51,710 --> 00:19:54,960 ROBERT COSTA: Is he going to be pardoned? If you read a little bit into the 283 00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,000 president's tweets this week, he's certainly showing some sympathy for Mr. Manafort. 284 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,630 PETER BAKER: No, he does, he does, and certainly it's possible Paul Manafort is counting 285 00:20:03,630 --> 00:20:07,280 on there being a pardon and that's why he's standing strong and not flipping, not 286 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,140 offering anything to the special counsel if he has anything to offer. 287 00:20:11,140 --> 00:20:16,430 The flipside is I'm not sure whether the pardon actually gets President Trump out of hock 288 00:20:16,430 --> 00:20:20,130 if that's - if there is something there to be worried about, because if you give a pardon 289 00:20:20,130 --> 00:20:23,310 to Paul Manafort - and Paula probably knows this better than I do; I'm not a lawyer - but 290 00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:28,500 if you pardon Paul Manafort, then he has no - he has no ability to refuse to testify. 291 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:32,240 Then Robert Mueller can put him on the stand and say you now have to testify because 292 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,180 you've been pardoned. You can't claim the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination 293 00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:39,520 if you don't face any criminal liability; you have to tell us about Donald Trump. 294 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,190 So that could be - that could backfire on the president. 295 00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:45,190 ROBERT COSTA: Molly, you've been writing cover stories for TIME on Democrats this year. 296 00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:48,150 Why aren't they bringing up Russia more and Paul Manafort more? 297 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:51,030 MOLLY BALL: Well, they do in the context of Capitol Hill, right? 298 00:20:51,030 --> 00:20:56,300 Democrats have obviously been the most outspoken in the oversight role, particularly, you 299 00:20:56,300 --> 00:21:00,710 know, Mark Warner in the Senate, Adam Schiff in the House. They are on television 300 00:21:00,710 --> 00:21:04,540 networks all the time talking about this and they take it very seriously, as do many 301 00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:09,950 Republicans. As a campaign issue, the conventional wisdom of both parties has been 302 00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:12,260 that they're better off not talking about it. 303 00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:16,660 Republicans feel that it doesn't matter to their constituents, therefore they are not 304 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:21,500 motivated to speak about it, positively or negatively I suppose. 305 00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:25,580 You don't hear them defending Trump a lot on this score; they're just avoiding it. 306 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:28,740 And for Democrats there's a feeling that - I think it's two things. 307 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:33,620 I think it's, number one, that it feels like a faraway issue, not a kitchen-table matter, 308 00:21:33,620 --> 00:21:37,570 not something that affects the lives of the people that they're campaigning in front of. 309 00:21:37,570 --> 00:21:43,230 And, number two, that it so permeates the news that they don't have to talk about it. 310 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:47,680 If there are voters who care about, you know, the threat to American democracy, the 311 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:54,200 threat of our Russian adversary, all of the disruptive influences that are - that are 312 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,150 coming out of this case, they're hearing about it on cable news all the time. 313 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:03,720 Democrats who run campaigns feel that what voters might not be hearing about is any kind 314 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,860 of positive or policy message that Democrats might have to offer. That's what's struggling 315 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:11,430 to break through. That's what they want to be talking about on the campaign trail. 316 00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:14,850 ROBERT COSTA: Going back to the courtroom, Paula, as Peter said, we are glad to have 317 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:19,140 you, a lawyer - (laughter) - as well as a reporter, here at the table. 318 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:21,900 When you're sitting there in that courtroom, you're of course watching Manafort, you're 319 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,730 looking at the evidence, but you're also watching Mueller's investigators. 320 00:22:24,730 --> 00:22:28,900 A lot's at stake for them. The judge, T.S. Ellis in this case, has raised some questions: 321 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:34,160 Is Mueller really in his lane with his mandate? What's at stake for Mueller right now? 322 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,790 PAULA REID: Well, this is ultimately a referendum on the special counsel investigation. 323 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:41,300 If he is convicted, that certainly bolsters the special counsel's case. 324 00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,400 People will say, all right, this is what they were up to; they were building this very 325 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,080 specific forensing - accounting case and it turned out that a jury, who looks like a jury 326 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,210 that pays their taxes, convicted him. But if there's an acquittal or even a partial 327 00:22:54,210 --> 00:22:57,200 acquittal, that will bolster the president and his allies who want to argue that, 328 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,350 look, this is politically motivated; he was investigated before, he wasn't charged 329 00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:03,760 because there wasn't enough evidence, he was prosecuted this time for political 330 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,250 reasons. So there is a lot at stake here for the special counsel team. 331 00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:11,050 ROBERT COSTA: And he's fighting a public war. Well, he's quietly fighting a public 332 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:14,080 war with the president. The president's mounting a war against Mueller with all of 333 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,270 his tweets and his words. Where does Mueller go from here? 334 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:20,710 Is it just in the courtroom in Alexandria where he's waging his battle? 335 00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:24,830 ANDREA MITCHELL: And the next court - the next case, of course, would be in district court here in 336 00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:35,070 D.C. where we are. Mueller, from all reports, is absolutely zeroed in and trying to, you know, 337 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:41,590 ignore all of this noise. But the president has, especially in the last week, been really ramping up. 338 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:45,880 That tweet that you quoted on Wednesday, in fact, was the most hostile and aggressive. 339 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:50,540 It's not true, of course, that Sessions could - because he's recused - actually fire 340 00:23:50,540 --> 00:23:54,780 Mueller, but it was a very threatening tweet indeed. And so there are a number of things 341 00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:59,020 that could be in play. This could be the result of these behind-the-scenes negotiations. 342 00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:04,060 It could be the result of the Manafort attorneys sharing information that has been now 343 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:09,640 shared with them, as the defense needs to have access to, and that could be really 344 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,430 frightening him that it's closing in. 345 00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:15,780 ROBERT COSTA: Well, where is this Peter? The president keeps saying at his rally after rally - 346 00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:19,660 Tampa, Pennsylvania - this has nothing to do with me, speaking about Paul Manafort. And to a - 347 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:22,190 PETER BAKER: And yet, he keeps bringing it up, right? 348 00:24:22,190 --> 00:24:24,650 If it has nothing to do with him, why does he keep talking about it? 349 00:24:24,650 --> 00:24:28,180 And, in fact, we shouldn't let it go without commenting on the fact that his comments on 350 00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:32,500 an ongoing trial are another line that other presidents would never have crossed. 351 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:36,870 The few times a president ever made a comment on an existing court case they got blasted 352 00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:40,680 for it and they regretted it because it was seen as putting undue influence on the part 353 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,150 of the chief law enforcement officer, arguably, of the country. 354 00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:47,670 So the fact that he's weighing in on it makes you wonder about that. 355 00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:51,270 Now, it doesn't directly relate on him, but you know, he seemed to think it does. 356 00:24:51,270 --> 00:24:54,770 ROBERT COSTA: We'll leave it there. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. 357 00:24:54,770 --> 00:24:59,610 Our conversation will continue online, as ever, on the Washington Week Extra. 358 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:04,080 We will talk about the president and the press. You can find that later tonight at 359 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:39,690 PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us.