1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,490 ROBERT COSTA: A legendary reporter shines a light on the Trump presidency. 2 00:00:05,490 --> 00:00:10,800 I'm Robert Costa. Tonight we welcome Bob Woodward to Washington Week. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:16,910 A new book by Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Bob Woodward depicts chaos inside the 4 00:00:16,910 --> 00:00:22,390 White House. Why are so many officials questioning President Trump's decisions 5 00:00:22,390 --> 00:00:27,540 on trade, national security, and the showdown with the special counsel? 6 00:00:27,540 --> 00:00:31,930 Is the Trump administration on the brink of a nervous breakdown? 7 00:00:31,930 --> 00:00:37,410 We discuss the stakes for the president and the country, next. 8 00:00:37,410 --> 00:01:18,820 ANNOUNCER: This is Washington Week. Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa. 9 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:25,170 ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. Tonight, a special edition of our program: Bob Woodward, 10 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:30,570 the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter for The Washington Post, joins us for a conversation 11 00:01:30,570 --> 00:01:36,790 about his new book, Fear: Trump in the White House. Bob traces Donald Trump's journey 12 00:01:36,790 --> 00:01:43,020 from the campaign trail to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Bob, so glad to have you here. 13 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:44,850 BOB WOODWARD: Thank you. 14 00:01:44,850 --> 00:01:47,880 ROBERT COSTA: Speaking of Pennsylvania Avenue, I think back to our conversation with 15 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,390 then-candidate Trump in March of - 16 00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:53,530 BOB WOODWARD: Two-and-a-half years ago. ROBERT COSTA: Two-and-a-half years ago. 17 00:01:53,530 --> 00:01:57,200 BOB WOODWARD: Yeah. And we sat in that little restaurant after - before 18 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,800 going to his hotel, which was then undergoing renovation. 19 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,090 ROBERT COSTA: And do you remember what he told us? You told me then, Bob, that we 20 00:02:05,090 --> 00:02:11,180 need to find out how President Trump sees power. You said that's the core of a 21 00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:15,640 presidency, how they use power. So what have you learned? 22 00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:22,020 BOB WOODWARD: Yes, so much. But to go back to that moment, we're talking about power. 23 00:02:22,020 --> 00:02:28,150 And what we did - Obama, of course, was the incumbent, so you and I went back and looked 24 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:34,730 at some Obama statements, his first inaugural. He said, oh, it's - you know, being 25 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:42,470 president is about restraint and humility, and real power is not having to use violence. 26 00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:48,530 So we asked Trump, you know, what about power? And that's when he said, real power 27 00:02:48,530 --> 00:02:56,240 is - I don't even like to use the word - "fear." And it was this moment - I kind of 28 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,510 jumped in my chair; I think you did, too - that this is the clue. 29 00:03:01,510 --> 00:03:04,460 ROBERT COSTA: So how does he use that power? 30 00:03:04,460 --> 00:03:09,710 Is there an ideology that's driving this, or is it all about transactional politics? 31 00:03:09,710 --> 00:03:16,530 BOB WOODWARD: It's all about pragmatic moments, the application of ideas that he's had 32 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:24,160 going back often 30 years ago about national security, about the presidency, about trade, 33 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:30,230 I mean, you name - about North Korea, about the North American Free Trade Agreement, 34 00:03:30,230 --> 00:03:36,710 about Europe. And what I've tried to do is say, OK, well, what does he do in each of 35 00:03:36,710 --> 00:03:45,940 these cases? But there's a line between our discussion before going to see Trump and 36 00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:57,060 then talking to Trump. And the presidency is also about an obligation to the people 37 00:03:57,060 --> 00:04:01,090 who put you there, but not just the ones who elected you. 38 00:04:01,090 --> 00:04:06,690 And I always think the job of the president is to establish the next stage of good for a 39 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:12,040 majority of people in the country - not a base, not one party, not interest groups. 40 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,660 And this is one of the things he has not done. 41 00:04:16,660 --> 00:04:21,360 ROBERT COSTA: What drives those views, though? You talk about 30 years, and in the 42 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,660 book President Trump tells Gary Cohn, his former top economic advisor, I've had these 43 00:04:25,660 --> 00:04:29,290 views for 30 years. But why does he have those views? 44 00:04:29,290 --> 00:04:33,100 BOB WOODWARD: He doesn't answer. He just, that's the way it is, and if you disagree 45 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:40,130 with me - this is Trump saying this - you're wrong. And so you can't - we all have to 46 00:04:40,130 --> 00:04:50,720 grow. Presidents have to grow. And the ability to listen and change or modify, shift 47 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:59,990 it a little bit, is the core of surviving in the presidency. And there is, as I said, 48 00:04:59,990 --> 00:05:08,040 this nervous breakdown, and I think it manifests itself in everything. 49 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:15,260 Now, you live in Trump world, covering it. What surprised you the most in this book? 50 00:05:15,260 --> 00:05:19,050 ROBERT COSTA: What surprised me was the effort that's being made by so many people around 51 00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:23,440 him to bring him back into the mainstream, back towards certain norms. 52 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,420 You see that in the scene you detail at the Pentagon, in the so-called Tank at the 53 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:32,090 Pentagon, where they try to explain to him the traditional alliances of U.S. 54 00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:35,490 foreign policy. He's pretty dismissive about it all. 55 00:05:35,490 --> 00:05:38,460 BOB WOODWARD: He's insulting to people. 56 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:44,290 And I mean, here you have Mattis, the secretary of defense, saying to him - puts up on 57 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:53,500 the wall these maps of kind of the pillars of the old order: trade agreements; security 58 00:05:53,500 --> 00:06:01,140 agreements like NATO; and then the very sensitive, secret, top-secret, special access 59 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:10,520 program intelligence partnerships - and Trump doesn't buy into any of this. And they're 60 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:16,630 all discouraged on the economic side. Mnuchin tries to - Trump went, oh, we've got to 61 00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:22,540 declare China a currency manipulator. And he tells him, Mr. President, look, they used 62 00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:29,470 to, but they don't now, and the law is very clear you can't do it unless the - you can't 63 00:06:29,470 --> 00:06:36,060 file and take action unless they're doing it now. And Trump is just, declare it. 64 00:06:36,060 --> 00:06:41,630 You know, that - as if you can rule beyond the law. 65 00:06:41,630 --> 00:06:46,320 ROBERT COSTA: That style in terms of foreign policy has a real cost. You write about 66 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:52,110 how the U.S. came to the brink of a real dramatic situation with North Korea. 67 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:56,730 The president was pulled back on tweeting about removing dependents from South Korea. 68 00:06:56,730 --> 00:07:05,000 BOB WOODWARD: And this could - and just at the time the top North Korean leader had sent 69 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,670 a message through intermediaries to H.R. McMaster, the national security adviser, on 70 00:07:10,670 --> 00:07:18,720 December 4th of last year saying if you start withdrawing dependents, we will take that 71 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:25,320 as a signal that war is imminent. Now, you have a volatile leader, Kim Jong-un. 72 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:34,120 He's got these nuclear weapons and there's no predictable path for understanding how he 73 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:39,950 might respond. And the Pentagon leadership went nuts about this and just said, you - and 74 00:07:39,950 --> 00:07:47,770 the tweet never went out, but had it, you know, God knows. And this is the problem. 75 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:57,880 You are crisis managing - that's what the presidency is about - and you got to have a 76 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:03,380 team. You've got to have agreement on fundamentals. And they don't have it. 77 00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:07,830 ROBERT COSTA: Do the people around him who are taking documents off of his desk, 78 00:08:07,830 --> 00:08:11,720 different trade agreements the president's trying to rip up, do they see themselves, when 79 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,730 you talk to them, as heroes? Or do they know they are, in a sense, mounting, 80 00:08:15,730 --> 00:08:19,310 as you call it, an administrative coup d'etat? 81 00:08:19,310 --> 00:08:26,180 BOB WOODWARD: There is lots of conscience in this, and the connection between trade and 82 00:08:26,180 --> 00:08:32,650 the military and the intelligence operations are very, very secret, but they are 83 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:42,040 interwoven. And people who did this are saying to each other, got to save the country, 84 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:50,440 one of them saying a third of my time is spent keeping bad things from happening. 85 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:56,200 And so alarm bells are going off all the time. 86 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,450 ROBERT COSTA: Steve Bannon, the former chief strategist to the president, has called it 87 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:04,920 an in-your-face state, this group of people around the president who are trying to corral 88 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,130 him in a different direction, not necessarily a deep state. How do you see that whole effort? 89 00:09:10,130 --> 00:09:16,520 BOB WOODWARD: Well, it's - Trump will just do what he wants; and he'll listen up to a 90 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,670 point, then he will dismiss, like steel tariffs. 91 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:26,800 Now, if you took a thousand economists and say do steel tariffs make sense - and I quote 92 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:33,630 a document in the book where experts on the left, the right, the economists, Nobel Prize 93 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:44,270 winners, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, leading Democratic and Republican economists, send 94 00:09:44,270 --> 00:09:53,060 him a letter saying don't do this; this will not work. And, of course, he does it and 95 00:09:53,060 --> 00:10:01,240 calls in the steel executives. Even John Kelly, the national - I'm sorry, the chief of 96 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,500 staff, didn't know that there was going to be this meeting, and Trump just does it. 97 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:12,500 Under the law, he has that authority. Some people think he may be stretching it. 98 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:20,150 But now we are in the world of these trade wars, which he says he thinks he can win. 99 00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:30,270 Wow. Danger, danger. I mean, the fright that people feel about, you know - and there's 100 00:10:30,270 --> 00:10:39,040 one point where he - Tom Bossert, who's his cybersecurity chief - I mean, no one has 101 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:46,410 talked about this - but he goes to see Trump. He's going to go on television, on a Sunday show. 102 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:54,230 And Trump says, tell them I'm putting tariffs on, up to 500 billion (dollars) on China. 103 00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:59,790 Now, this was four or five months ago, and of course that's exactly where he's heading. 104 00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:09,070 And the president's so pumped up about this he says, you know, boy, it's too bad it's a 105 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:14,950 Sunday show because if it were Monday and the markets were open you'd tank the markets. 106 00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:23,800 The president's job is not to tank the markets; it's to stabilize the markets. I was really 107 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:31,510 surprised by that, that he would - because, you know, he spent all this time in New 108 00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:39,220 York, understands finance in a way; in a way he does not. But to speak proudly of tanking 109 00:11:39,220 --> 00:11:46,120 the markets, potentially, I mean, what did you think? You cover - you live Trump day to day. 110 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,050 ROBERT COSTA: And you've had the opportunity to spend so much time talking to these key 111 00:11:50,050 --> 00:11:54,940 players inside, talking to you on deep background, revealing what really is happening. 112 00:11:54,940 --> 00:11:58,290 And what have you learned, though, about President Trump as a person? 113 00:11:58,290 --> 00:12:02,710 You say he knows the markets. What else does he know beyond the tweets? 114 00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:05,630 BOB WOODWARD: But he doesn't. I mean, he knows some of the markets. He knows they're 115 00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:10,480 out there. But he thinks things like, oh, let's just print money, run the presses. 116 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,100 And, you know, they're telling him, no, you can't do that; you'll run up the deficit. 117 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:21,220 And as you know, economists on the left and the right, Republicans and Democrats, are 118 00:12:21,220 --> 00:12:27,270 really worried about the deficit spending. But it's just, you know, let's do it; let's print money. 119 00:12:27,270 --> 00:12:31,810 ROBERT COSTA: Secretary Jim Mattis in the Defense Department, Chief of Staff John Kelly, 120 00:12:31,810 --> 00:12:36,350 are they getting too much credit for keeping President Trump in line? 121 00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:40,380 Because he still seems to be going his own way on every front. 122 00:12:40,380 --> 00:12:44,700 BOB WOODWARD: That's a really interesting question. I mean, where is the credit? 123 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:50,740 I think it happens at lots of levels. There are some people who have read the book 124 00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:56,090 now who say, well, you know, he hasn't started a war, which is quite true. He's talked 125 00:12:56,090 --> 00:13:03,890 about, you know, let's assassinate or let's go after - let's kill the Syrian leader, Assad. 126 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:13,170 He has - someone was telling me today - Hugh Hewitt, who's a smart watcher most of the 127 00:13:13,170 --> 00:13:19,320 time on these things, said he wants to airdrop copies of the book to every embassy in 128 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:28,080 Washington, because this will tell you how he's working. It tells you a lot that's new. 129 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:34,240 But there is the mystery of the Trump personality which persists, don't you think? 130 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,450 ROBERT COSTA: And the mystery of the Republican Party persists. You have all these 131 00:13:37,450 --> 00:13:41,370 advisors and officials in the book trying to bring President Trump in a different 132 00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:46,450 direction. But where are the Republican leaders - Speaker Ryan, Majority Leader McConnell? 133 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:51,800 They seem to barely figure in this effort to keep Trump moving toward the center. 134 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:57,330 BOB WOODWARD: That's exactly right. And of course, this is - a lot of people have 135 00:13:57,330 --> 00:14:03,290 compared this to the Nixon case and Watergate, which I spent years of my life on. 136 00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:10,400 And at a certain point it tipped, and the Republicans said - as Barry Goldwater, the 137 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:19,300 former late senator from Arizona finally went and said: Too many lies, too many crimes. 138 00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:26,070 And Nixon resigned the next day. Where that tipping point is with Trump, if there is 139 00:14:26,070 --> 00:14:32,290 one, we don't know. Somebody who knows him well after the book came out said: He's 140 00:14:32,290 --> 00:14:39,750 going to lash out at you. Which he's done. He is a master at changing the conversation, 141 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:46,060 as you know. And so you - we're going to see efforts to change the conversation, 142 00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:55,520 which is fine. But it's - the core thought I have, there's a war on truth. 143 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:02,290 And the book ends with John Dowd, his lawyer for eight months in the Mueller 144 00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:08,260 investigation - he won't tell him this, because it's too insulting - but he said: You're 145 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:20,680 an effing liar. That's the summation. And you can't run this complex country on untruth. 146 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,430 ROBERT COSTA: How much is that Mueller investigation, the special counsel looking into 147 00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:29,480 Russian interference in the 2016, hovering over this presidency, fueling the anger? 148 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,240 BOB WOODWARD: Immensely so. 149 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:39,800 More so than I thought in - there were a couple of scenes where Trump asks Dowd to go to 150 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,470 Mueller and say: You know, the president wants you to know that the Egyptian President 151 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:55,570 el-Sisi - a real tyrant - called and negotiated with Trump about getting some charity 152 00:15:55,570 --> 00:16:03,380 worker released from Egypt, which happened. And then Trump recounts what el-Sisi said. 153 00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:10,420 Said - you know, and Trump's telling Dowd, this guy, el-Sisi, is a killer. 154 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:17,660 He's a real killer. He'll make you sweat on the phone. And then he - Trump assumes 155 00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:24,310 the gravelly voice of el-Sisi and says: Donald what about this investigation? 156 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:31,390 What's going on here? Will you still be around? Suppose I need a favor? 157 00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:35,260 ROBERT COSTA: So he feels that kind of burden in operating foreign policy. 158 00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:39,240 He can't escape it. Can't escape the Russia probe, day in, day out. 159 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,500 BOB WOODWARD: That's right. And when he - the day after Mueller was appointed in 160 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:49,630 May of last year, there is a long, extended scene in the Oval Office, in the dining 161 00:16:49,630 --> 00:16:54,190 room, where Trump is just beside himself. Doesn't really sit down. 162 00:16:54,190 --> 00:17:01,270 Is just on his feet, back and forth, TiVo-ing all the cable news and looking at some of 163 00:17:01,270 --> 00:17:06,750 it and just saying, you know, how has this happened? He realized the calamity of having 164 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:15,140 a special counsel. And he said: They'll get - Mueller is going to go into every phase of my life. 165 00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:26,130 I am - I am - I mean, he feels and sounds like he's been tied up by this, right at the outset. 166 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:29,360 ROBERT COSTA: I mean, rightfully. If you think about what happened on 167 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,100 Friday - earlier today, Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, decides to 168 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:39,030 plead guilty to money laundering, cooperating with Mueller's investigation. It doesn't stop. 169 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:43,440 BOB WOODWARD: It doesn't, but I mean, you would know more about this. Would 170 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,850 Manafort know much? I think he was just brought in to manage the campaign for a short 171 00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:54,020 period of time for the Republican National Convention. Do you think he knows much about - 172 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:57,350 ROBERT COSTA: Well, he just - he's connected to the Trump - he was the chairman of the 173 00:17:57,350 --> 00:18:02,000 Trump campaign. My point is, is that every day President Trump, whether it's in a conversation 174 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,710 with a world leader or with his staff, he haunted in a sense by this Russia investigation. 175 00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:14,340 BOB WOODWARD: He definitely is. And here's the interesting question for our business, 176 00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:20,970 the media. How do we cover him aggressively but fairly? Because there are lots of 177 00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:27,180 people, his supporters, who think we've adopted a tone of snideness. 178 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:30,270 And, you know, how do you get that? I mean, I - 179 00:18:30,270 --> 00:18:33,910 ROBERT COSTA: How do you do it? BOB WOODWARD: How do you do it? 180 00:18:33,910 --> 00:18:36,660 ROBERT COSTA: Well, I'm just - you think about the Trump voter. 181 00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:39,900 Whenever you go meet them on the campaign trail they say the economy's strong, they like 182 00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:44,500 the nominees for the Supreme Court. They think President Trump's doing fine. 183 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,780 So there's a disconnect in the country - parts of the country - those who 184 00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:52,230 are alarmed by President Trump and those who say he's doing just fine. 185 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:58,350 BOB WOODWARD: Well, I think the answer, as always, as you and I have talked over the 186 00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:04,200 last couple of years, more reporting. What really happened? What did they say? 187 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,480 What was the final resolution of some of these things? 188 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,370 Or at least, the temporary resolution because often there isn't a final one. 189 00:19:13,370 --> 00:19:17,990 ROBERT COSTA: How does the president see race? There's this episode in this book 190 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:22,800 about Charlottesville in 2017. He calls his speech where he apologizes for his initial 191 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,900 remarks or backtracks them, "the worst mistake of his presidency." What does that tell us? 192 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:33,300 BOB WOODWARD: I mean, this is so - he says about Charlottesville, oh, both sides are 193 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:41,810 responsible. And there is an eruption of, wait a minute, you're saying Nazis are fine? 194 00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:51,070 And so then Rob Porter, the staff secretary, and Sarah Sanders work with him on a speech 195 00:19:51,070 --> 00:19:59,210 which he gives, which is a healing speech, on Sunday. And - but if you look at that, 196 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:04,400 if you ran it, you would see it's kind of like a hostage tape. He's saying things he 197 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:11,460 doesn't necessarily believe. But he said them. And then he watches a little Fox News 198 00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:17,800 and people are saying it's a course correction. And he blows up and says: That's the 199 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,040 worst effing speech I ever gave. How could I do that? Who talked me into it? 200 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:31,440 And then the next Monday he reverts to his original position in a very stark way. 201 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,410 ROBERT COSTA: Does that tell us about how he sees race? 202 00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:38,180 Or does that just tell us how President Trump never wants to be on the defensive? 203 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:42,530 BOB WOODWARD: That's a - I can't answer that question. All I can do is show it. 204 00:20:42,530 --> 00:20:49,860 And you see the reaction to people. And what it suggests to a number is that it means 205 00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:57,900 the war, the race war in this country, will never end unless you have a president who's 206 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:07,110 going to take steps to heal. And I was really shocked at that. I thought for a few 207 00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:17,250 words you create such nervousness that you throw fuel on this racial discord in the 208 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:28,750 country. And it's out of the mainstream. And I think you have to look at every day - 209 00:21:28,750 --> 00:21:34,700 like this is the way the people in the White House look at it - which is who knows 210 00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:40,030 what's going to happen. The tweets - I mean, they start the day, you know this, 211 00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:43,150 reading the tweets because no one knows what's going to come. 212 00:21:43,150 --> 00:21:46,750 ROBERT COSTA: Because he's upstairs alone in the executive residence of the White House 213 00:21:46,750 --> 00:21:50,100 tweeting by himself. When you think about all the challenges you've laid out 214 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:55,320 here Bob - in the book, in your reporting - are the challenges surrounding 215 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,910 President Trump different - in a different class than the challenges that 216 00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:02,830 you've encountered with the nine other presidents you've observed? 217 00:22:02,830 --> 00:22:10,810 BOB WOODWARD: Yeah, this is - this is unique, because it is - there's not an operating 218 00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:16,240 theory. There's not a team building. I keep going back to you've got to have a team. 219 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:21,260 It's just like here on your show. You have a team. I've met all your producers. 220 00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:23,790 I know they do all the work, not you. 221 00:22:23,790 --> 00:22:26,230 ROBERT COSTA: (Laughs.) Very true. 222 00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:30,930 BOB WOODWARD: And that at The Washington Post, you have a team. You need a team. 223 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:38,510 And collaboration is the only way you get to solutions. And a leader has to listen. 224 00:22:38,510 --> 00:22:47,050 And I think the listening skills of a leader are among the most important. And he 225 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:57,590 just doesn't want to listen. He wants to talk. And he wants to - it's a very troubling 226 00:22:57,590 --> 00:23:05,170 time. And people who want to pretend it's not troubling are kidding themselves. 227 00:23:05,170 --> 00:23:10,470 ROBERT COSTA: Well, are the institutions - Congress, the federal agencies, the norms in 228 00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:13,340 this country - are they holding? 229 00:23:13,340 --> 00:23:19,210 BOB WOODWARD: Well, it could be tested. And this is when you have - when there's a real crisis. 230 00:23:19,210 --> 00:23:26,590 How do you - (coughs) - excuse me - how does he make his decision in a way that will take 231 00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:35,280 from his disruptor instincts and the paths that these institutions that have been handed 232 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,490 him. When people say it's not normal, I kind of - of course it's not normal. 233 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:47,480 He won on not being normal. You don't have to be normal. But you have to be - you 234 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,550 can't go around - I mean, you talk to - I was talking to some of the BBC people today. 235 00:23:53,550 --> 00:23:59,100 And, my God, you know, in the - in Europe they're just saying, what is going on? 236 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:06,460 This book is the bestseller in Europe - imagine that. That just doesn't happen. 237 00:24:06,460 --> 00:24:11,040 That's because people wonder where this all ends. 238 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,560 ROBERT COSTA: Whether it's in Europe, inside of the White House, even now in 2018, 239 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,810 there's a mass effort to try to understand President Trump. 240 00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:26,150 Again and again people are asking the question: Who is he? 241 00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:32,230 BOB WOODWARD: Yes. And unfortunately, his lawyer John Dowd gets the closing 242 00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:37,970 comment in this book. And that is that he's an effing liar. 243 00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:47,280 And this theme - our newspaper, 4,200-and-so-many lies or distortions - that's important. 244 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,150 I think most important is what he does on national security. 245 00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:56,440 That's where you can make a mistake, where you have to have the secretary of defense tell 246 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,850 you: We're doing all these things to prevent World War III - job one for a president. 247 00:25:02,850 --> 00:25:11,660 And then you have the beleaguered Trump in the Mueller probe, which he just - as John 248 00:25:11,660 --> 00:25:19,550 Dowd says - you know, he's really disabled. He can't tell the truth. 249 00:25:19,550 --> 00:25:25,740 ROBERT COSTA: Bob Woodward, thank you so much for your reporting, your insights now and 250 00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:29,480 for the past four decades. Appreciate your time. Thanks for being here. 251 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,390 BOB WOODWARD: Thanks, Bob. 252 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:34,520 ROBERT COSTA: Our conversation will continue on the Washington Week Extra. 253 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,680 You can find this week's special edition right now and all weekend long at 254 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:45,400 PBS.org/WashingtonWeek. And to everyone affected by Hurricane Florence, please be safe. 255 00:25:45,400 --> 00:26:47,490 We are thinking of you. I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us.