WEBVTT 00:03.903 --> 00:06.306 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Good evening, I'm Sylvia Bugg, 00:06.306 --> 00:10.443 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% chief programming executive and general manager at PBS. 00:10.443 --> 00:13.813 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you for joining us for tonight's conversation 00:13.813 --> 00:17.384 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% on the Holocaust and authoritarianism 00:17.384 --> 00:20.086 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% part of a series of events leading up 00:20.086 --> 00:23.757 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the broadcast of the US and the Holocaust. 00:23.757 --> 00:28.762 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The new film by Ken Burns, Lynn Novick and Sarah Botstein. 00:29.896 --> 00:31.798 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The series will air starting September 18th 00:31.798 --> 00:36.536 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then resume with episode two on Tuesday, September 20th 00:36.536 --> 00:40.974 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and episode three on Wednesday, September 21st, 00:40.974 --> 00:44.611 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the three episodes will stream on all PBS platforms 00:44.611 --> 00:46.846 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% time to the premier. 00:46.846 --> 00:49.182 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The film examines the rise of Hitler, 00:49.182 --> 00:52.519 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Nazi-ism in Germany in the context of global 00:52.519 --> 00:54.587 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% antisemitism and racism, 00:54.587 --> 00:57.123 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the eugenics movement and the United States 00:57.123 --> 00:59.959 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and race laws in the American south. 00:59.959 --> 01:02.629 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The series written by Jeffrey Ward 01:02.629 --> 01:04.798 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% shed's light on what the US government 01:04.798 --> 01:07.901 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and American people knew and did 01:07.901 --> 01:11.671 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as the catastrophe unfolded in Europe, 01:11.671 --> 01:15.608 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% including the rise of authoritarian governments in Europe, 01:15.608 --> 01:17.243 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and how Americans thought about 01:17.243 --> 01:20.046 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and responded to them. 01:20.046 --> 01:22.482 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Tonight, Ken Burns and Lynn Novick 01:22.482 --> 01:24.651 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% will join Michael Abramowitz, 01:24.651 --> 01:27.854 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% president of freedom house in a conversation 01:27.854 --> 01:31.391 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% moderated by Julia Loffe of Puck. 01:31.391 --> 01:33.960 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Tonight's conversation along with the one 01:33.960 --> 01:36.329 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we had on September 8th on refugees 01:36.329 --> 01:41.334 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the Holocaust will be archived at pbs.org/kenburns. 01:43.603 --> 01:47.407 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We will begin with a clip that examines Hitler's rise 01:47.407 --> 01:48.608 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to power. 01:48.608 --> 01:50.810 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You'll then be joined by the panel. 01:54.314 --> 01:56.883 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (upbeat music) 02:00.353 --> 02:02.722 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (soft music) 02:03.957 --> 02:06.526 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Host] There are some events so tragic, 02:06.526 --> 02:08.528 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We think we'll never forget, 02:08.528 --> 02:10.663 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% days pass lives pass, 02:10.663 --> 02:13.867 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the lessons we vow to learn pass away with them. 02:13.867 --> 02:16.436 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It takes work to keep stories alive, 02:16.436 --> 02:18.505 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to paint a picture of the past 02:18.505 --> 02:21.741 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and help the next generation move forward together. 02:21.741 --> 02:23.443 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% So we never forget. 02:23.443 --> 02:25.845 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% (soft music) 02:36.689 --> 02:38.224 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] The city of Hildesheim 02:38.224 --> 02:40.460 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in Northern Germany was home to some 02:40.460 --> 02:42.929 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% 1000 Jewish families. 02:42.929 --> 02:45.465 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Julia Stern owned a small shop. 02:45.465 --> 02:49.302 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% His wife Hedwig was the daughter of a well to do merchant. 02:49.302 --> 02:51.671 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They had three children. 02:51.671 --> 02:55.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Their oldest was Gunther born in 1922. 02:57.076 --> 03:00.880 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Gunther] My mother was a absolute luminous woman 03:00.880 --> 03:02.649 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and she could write 03:02.649 --> 03:05.985 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% German verses for all occasions 03:05.985 --> 03:10.990 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and was praised as a poet laureate of our family. 03:12.425 --> 03:16.196 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I had a neighbor boy who was my best friend on the slim 03:16.196 --> 03:19.432 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% basis that both of our names were Gunther. 03:19.432 --> 03:24.437 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% His family was not all that conservative as Protestants. 03:25.605 --> 03:28.508 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we were not that observant as Jews. 03:30.610 --> 03:33.580 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] But to Hitler, all Jews were clanish, 03:33.580 --> 03:36.015 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% stateless, subhuman leeches, 03:36.015 --> 03:38.851 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who drained the strength of every country in which 03:38.851 --> 03:40.353 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% they lived. 03:40.353 --> 03:43.056 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% From his cell he promised to one day make Germany 03:43.056 --> 03:44.257 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% free of them. 03:44.257 --> 03:47.660 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And by so doing restore Germany's greatness. 03:48.928 --> 03:50.930 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Victory in that struggle, he said, 03:50.930 --> 03:55.935 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% demanded military might, Aryan fertility and racial purity. 03:57.403 --> 03:59.672 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He would seek to destroy the power of what he believed 03:59.672 --> 04:02.408 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% was a worldwide conspiracy. 04:02.408 --> 04:03.977 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% International jewelry. 04:05.311 --> 04:06.546 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% At the same time, 04:06.546 --> 04:09.549 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he dreamed of reclaiming German territories 04:09.549 --> 04:12.252 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and waging a war against the Soviet union 04:12.252 --> 04:14.687 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that would simultaneously destroy 04:14.687 --> 04:18.858 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what he called Jewish bolshevism and win for Germany 04:18.858 --> 04:21.127 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the layman's realm, living space, 04:21.127 --> 04:23.997 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to which he believed it was entitled. 04:25.932 --> 04:27.867 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Peter] Hitler saw the expansion of Germany 04:27.867 --> 04:29.402 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% into Eastern Europe 04:29.402 --> 04:33.306 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as foreshadowed by what we had done in North America. 04:34.741 --> 04:36.976 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The expansion of the white people of the United States 04:36.976 --> 04:40.046 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% across the continent from east to west, 04:40.046 --> 04:43.616 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% rushing aside, the people who were already here 04:43.616 --> 04:46.919 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and confining them to reservations. 04:48.855 --> 04:50.490 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] The immense inner strength 04:50.490 --> 04:51.724 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the United States 04:51.724 --> 04:54.193 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Hitler said came from the ruthless, 04:54.193 --> 04:58.197 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but necessary act of murdering native people 04:58.197 --> 05:00.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and hurting the rest into cages. 05:02.168 --> 05:04.203 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Timothy] He saw us as a way that 05:04.203 --> 05:07.540 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% racial superiority is supposed to work. 05:07.540 --> 05:10.576 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The higher races conquer the territory. 05:10.576 --> 05:11.778 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So if anything, 05:11.778 --> 05:14.147 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the attitude before the war was an attitude 05:14.147 --> 05:15.548 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of a certain admiration. 05:16.883 --> 05:18.017 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Announcer] Hitler hoped 05:18.017 --> 05:19.652 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that just as the Americans had conquered 05:19.652 --> 05:21.287 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the wild west, 05:21.287 --> 05:24.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% his Countryman would conquer the wild east, 05:24.524 --> 05:27.360 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Eastern Europe and the Soviet union. 05:27.360 --> 05:30.630 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Our Mississippi, he said must be the vulgar. 05:32.165 --> 05:34.967 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Germans would sweep aside those who inconveniently, 05:34.967 --> 05:39.172 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% occupied those lands polls and other sluvs 05:39.172 --> 05:41.307 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% as well as Jews. 05:41.307 --> 05:44.410 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Much as native Americans had been swept aside. 05:48.214 --> 05:52.518 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% When Hitler was released from prison in December of 1924, 05:52.518 --> 05:55.722 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the fledgling Vima Republic that had been born at the end of 05:55.722 --> 05:59.425 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the great war was finally coming into its own. 06:00.660 --> 06:04.163 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Berlin, its capital and largest city home 06:04.163 --> 06:06.265 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to one third of Germany's Jews 06:06.265 --> 06:10.503 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% had become the intellectual and creative center of Europe. 06:11.871 --> 06:16.542 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Expressionism on canvas and on the movie screen, 06:16.542 --> 06:20.646 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Bowhouse architecture and American jazz , 06:21.814 --> 06:25.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% scientific advancement, and avant-garde music, 06:25.685 --> 06:29.455 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% sexual freedom and leftist politics. 06:31.791 --> 06:35.762 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Berlin represented everything Hitler hated, 06:35.762 --> 06:37.497 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and hoped to destroy. 06:39.432 --> 06:41.768 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Thank you so much to everybody for joining us. 06:41.768 --> 06:45.138 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Thank you so much to Lynn and Ken and Sarah 06:45.138 --> 06:47.206 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for making an absolutely extraordinary 06:47.206 --> 06:50.443 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and riveting film and a very timely one. 06:50.443 --> 06:54.414 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you to Andrew as well for joining and provide, 06:54.414 --> 06:58.084 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% oh, sorry, Michael, for providing expertise. 06:58.084 --> 07:01.020 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I wanted to start with Lynn and Ken. 07:01.020 --> 07:03.356 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I've watched so many of your films 07:03.356 --> 07:08.361 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they always tackle an event from history, 07:09.562 --> 07:13.232 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Vietnam war, prohibition that seem very far away, 07:13.232 --> 07:18.237 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but they very subtly get at comparisons to the present. 07:20.306 --> 07:24.310 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I wanted to ask you why this and why now? 07:24.310 --> 07:27.547 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Why the Holocaust, which is a pretty well tried topic. 07:27.547 --> 07:30.450 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% How did this film come about? 07:30.450 --> 07:34.153 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why was this the idea and why now? 07:34.153 --> 07:35.788 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Well, let me first address 07:35.788 --> 07:38.090 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the first part of your question. 07:38.090 --> 07:39.992 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I'll let Lynn do the second half. 07:39.992 --> 07:42.795 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% First of all, thank you, Julia, for hosting this, 07:42.795 --> 07:44.363 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we are huge fans of yours 07:44.363 --> 07:46.065 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and are very excited to be 07:46.065 --> 07:49.669 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% involved in this conversation this evening. 07:49.669 --> 07:52.305 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, we've, every film we've made has, 07:52.305 --> 07:55.808 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in some ways resonated in the present moment, 07:55.808 --> 07:57.944 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% human nature doesn't change. 07:57.944 --> 08:00.246 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Mark Twain is supposed to have said 08:00.246 --> 08:02.448 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. 08:02.448 --> 08:05.718 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And our discipline is filmmakers is to make sure 08:05.718 --> 08:08.554 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we just attend to telling our story in the past, 08:08.554 --> 08:11.891 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% trusting that those rhymes will be self-evident 08:11.891 --> 08:14.060 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we don't need to sort of isolate them 08:14.060 --> 08:17.697 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and put neon signs or big arrows pointing to look 08:17.697 --> 08:19.899 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% isn't this so much like today, 08:19.899 --> 08:23.069 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but almost everything that takes place is very much like 08:23.069 --> 08:26.205 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% today human behavior remains the same in all, 08:26.205 --> 08:27.807 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% its good in all its bad ways. 08:27.807 --> 08:29.642 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so with this film in particular, 08:29.642 --> 08:33.079 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think we were stunned over the course of making it 08:33.079 --> 08:36.282 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% at just the extent to which it was resonating 08:36.282 --> 08:37.817 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with the present. 08:37.817 --> 08:42.054 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think nowhere than in the rise of antisemitism 08:42.054 --> 08:47.059 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and racism, xenophobia and nativism around the world, 08:48.528 --> 08:52.632 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but also a kind of flirtation 08:52.632 --> 08:56.269 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with or direct interest in authoritarianism. 08:56.269 --> 08:57.970 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so I think that brings us 08:57.970 --> 08:58.905 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to this moment. 08:58.905 --> 09:00.439 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% As for the film itself, 09:00.439 --> 09:02.408 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% let me yield to Lynn 09:02.408 --> 09:05.044 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to talk a little bit about its early history 09:05.044 --> 09:08.447 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because Mike is a large part of that too. 09:08.447 --> 09:11.417 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So the Genesis of this project really is that, 09:11.417 --> 09:12.885 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% you know, 09:12.885 --> 09:14.687 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for Ken and for Jeffrey Ward and for Sarah Botstein 09:14.687 --> 09:17.056 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and myself, we've been interested in American history. 09:17.056 --> 09:18.891 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We've studied the second world war. 09:18.891 --> 09:21.561 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Ken and Jeff made a beautiful film about the Rosevelts. 09:21.561 --> 09:23.362 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Certainly the Holocaust as an event 09:23.362 --> 09:25.064 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the history of the 20th century, 09:25.064 --> 09:28.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% something we've been extremely interested in 09:28.100 --> 09:29.268 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and studied on our own. 09:29.268 --> 09:31.203 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And as part of the projects we've worked on 09:31.203 --> 09:35.575 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and in 2015, Michael Abramowitz who's here tonight, 09:35.575 --> 09:38.177 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who was then with the Holocaust museum in Washington, 09:38.177 --> 09:39.845 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% approached us because they were developing 09:39.845 --> 09:43.282 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% an initiative to study Americans in the Holocaust 09:43.282 --> 09:45.384 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and to try to connect the dots 09:45.384 --> 09:47.286 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% between what happened overseas 09:47.286 --> 09:49.088 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and what was America's response. 09:49.088 --> 09:51.891 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They were gonna do an exhibition and a whole big educational 09:51.891 --> 09:53.693 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% initiative that would last many years. 09:53.693 --> 09:54.694 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And they wanted to know, 09:54.694 --> 09:56.062 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we would consider making a film 09:56.062 --> 09:58.564 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that would tackle those same questions. 09:58.564 --> 10:00.733 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we absolutely jumped at the chance 10:00.733 --> 10:04.070 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to work with the museum and with Mike and the team there, 10:04.070 --> 10:06.739 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the curators and the researchers, the archivists, 10:06.739 --> 10:08.507 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to learn from what they had learned 10:08.507 --> 10:10.076 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to share what we had learned 10:10.076 --> 10:12.111 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they went ahead on their process 10:12.111 --> 10:13.179 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we went ahead on ours. 10:13.179 --> 10:14.413 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Their exhibition is, 10:14.413 --> 10:16.015 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has already been up for several years. 10:16.015 --> 10:19.251 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I urge anyone here to go to Washington and see it. 10:19.251 --> 10:20.586 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It's remarkable. 10:20.586 --> 10:22.088 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And we, you know, 10:22.088 --> 10:23.923 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% just took the ball and tried to run with it and to explore 10:23.923 --> 10:26.325 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the questions of what did the American people know, 10:26.325 --> 10:28.294 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% when did they know it? 10:28.294 --> 10:29.829 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% How did they know it? 10:29.829 --> 10:31.330 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And what did they do about it? 10:31.330 --> 10:33.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% What was their response from the top to the bottom 10:33.633 --> 10:35.001 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of our society? 10:35.001 --> 10:36.902 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And really for our conversation tonight, 10:36.902 --> 10:39.739 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this question of what was it like to be living 10:39.739 --> 10:42.408 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a time when authoritarianism was on the rise, 10:42.408 --> 10:45.911 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% fascism was gaining strength in Europe, 10:45.911 --> 10:48.948 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% certainly, and also here as a threat. 10:48.948 --> 10:50.516 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And so, you know, 10:50.516 --> 10:53.486 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% looking at that story while the world was changing around us 10:53.486 --> 10:55.655 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was quite a profound and life changing experience. 10:55.655 --> 10:58.824 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we're very grateful to Mike for bringing us 10:58.824 --> 11:01.794 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to this project in such a direct and fantastic way. 11:01.794 --> 11:02.728 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So thank you. 11:02.728 --> 11:03.562 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - The matchmaker. 11:03.562 --> 11:04.930 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 11:04.930 --> 11:06.432 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Can I just follow up though? 11:06.432 --> 11:08.601 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Can I ask, what were the years when you were working on it? 11:08.601 --> 11:09.435 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% When did you get started? 11:09.435 --> 11:10.670 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% What were the years? 11:10.670 --> 11:12.138 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Yes, I should have said. 11:12.138 --> 11:14.373 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we first started talking with the museum in 2015. 11:14.373 --> 11:17.910 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So Barack Obama was president, 11:17.910 --> 11:19.779 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% their exhibition opened in 2018 11:19.779 --> 11:22.248 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we were working on it, you know, since 2015, 11:22.248 --> 11:25.351 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but we really began sort of more full time 11:25.351 --> 11:28.254 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% all the time working on it for the last four years. 11:29.622 --> 11:34.126 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - So I noticed Tim Snyder appears many times 11:34.126 --> 11:36.962 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the film and he like many of us 11:36.962 --> 11:41.567 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who have reported on and studied authoritarian regimes, 11:41.567 --> 11:45.071 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% both past and present, you know, 11:45.071 --> 11:49.008 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% sounded the alarm many times over the last few years, 11:49.008 --> 11:53.212 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% since 2015 with the rise of Donald Trump in the U.S. 11:53.212 --> 11:55.681 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I'm wondering in the course of making this film, 11:55.681 --> 11:58.551 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and again, there were so many parallels to today. 11:58.551 --> 12:01.087 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The rise of, or the reemergence, 12:01.087 --> 12:02.521 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'cause it's not the rise, right? 12:02.521 --> 12:04.557 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% As you point out, it was always there. 12:04.557 --> 12:05.691 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It says, as you say in the film, 12:05.691 --> 12:07.827 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it's says American is apple pie, 12:07.827 --> 12:09.295 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the reemergence of native, 12:09.295 --> 12:13.199 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the reemergence of the white replacement theory, 12:13.199 --> 12:15.134 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which you nod to very clearly, 12:16.702 --> 12:19.271 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% all these things that were always there, kind of reemerging. 12:19.271 --> 12:23.709 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So clearly, so unabashedly in American life. 12:23.709 --> 12:26.245 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Were there moments while you were making this film 12:26.245 --> 12:28.280 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% during the past seven years 12:28.280 --> 12:30.883 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where you just had to pinch yourself 12:30.883 --> 12:35.421 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and kind of, I don't know. 12:35.421 --> 12:39.024 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And you know, wonder how this was all happening again. 12:39.024 --> 12:39.859 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 12:39.859 --> 12:40.826 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Oh most definitely. 12:40.826 --> 12:42.962 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think that, as I said before, 12:42.962 --> 12:45.397 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that there hasn't been a film that we've worked on where we 12:45.397 --> 12:47.500 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% haven't been aware of that connection, 12:47.500 --> 12:50.402 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the kind of echoes from the present moment 12:50.402 --> 12:52.438 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% back to the past or vice versa, 12:52.438 --> 12:55.207 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% however you would like to see or feel that. 12:55.207 --> 12:57.343 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And we've always assiduously. 12:57.343 --> 12:59.111 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And in this case as well, 12:59.111 --> 13:01.313 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% focused on mastering our story, you know, 13:01.313 --> 13:03.749 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% our six and a half hours has, you know, 13:03.749 --> 13:05.951 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% maybe 30 times that much material 13:05.951 --> 13:08.821 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we've had to sift through and deal with and understand, 13:08.821 --> 13:13.359 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but there became a very uncomfortable urgency 13:13.359 --> 13:14.593 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% about this film. 13:14.593 --> 13:16.929 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In fact, it was due to come out next year 13:16.929 --> 13:18.430 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and we accelerated 13:18.430 --> 13:23.235 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the process after the one six invasion of the capital, 13:24.837 --> 13:26.338 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the insurrection, 13:26.338 --> 13:30.276 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and just felt that we needed to join the conversation. 13:30.276 --> 13:31.577 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There's a moment in the film 13:31.577 --> 13:33.546 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% where the great Holocaust historian 13:33.546 --> 13:35.748 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and scholar Deborah Lipstadt 13:35.748 --> 13:38.751 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% says the time to stop a genocide is 13:38.751 --> 13:42.254 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% before it happens to which I've added 13:42.254 --> 13:44.990 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the idea that the time to save a democracy 13:44.990 --> 13:46.992 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is before it's lost. 13:46.992 --> 13:51.630 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we can see the fragility of our democratic systems here, 13:51.630 --> 13:54.834 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% things that, you know, Benjamin Franklins that are Republic, 13:54.834 --> 13:55.768 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% if you can keep it. 13:55.768 --> 13:58.070 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And for 245 years, 13:58.070 --> 14:00.539 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we've done a pretty darn good job of keeping it, 14:00.539 --> 14:03.876 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% even in the midst of great stressful crises, 14:03.876 --> 14:05.678 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% like the civil war, the great depression, 14:05.678 --> 14:07.613 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which overlaps with this story. 14:07.613 --> 14:10.683 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And of course the second world war, which overlaps as well. 14:10.683 --> 14:13.018 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But right now we find just the things 14:13.018 --> 14:14.453 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% we've taken for granted, 14:14.453 --> 14:17.056 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the oxygen we've breathed as American citizens 14:17.056 --> 14:20.826 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% about free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer 14:20.826 --> 14:23.462 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of power and the independence of the judiciary 14:23.462 --> 14:25.998 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and sort of the bedrock institutions 14:25.998 --> 14:27.600 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that have formed who we are, 14:27.600 --> 14:29.702 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% are now under complete assault. 14:29.702 --> 14:32.771 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And it, they are... 14:32.771 --> 14:36.175 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was so worrisome that we felt that we were obligated 14:36.175 --> 14:37.343 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in a way. 14:37.343 --> 14:38.844 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I hope Lynn I'm speaking for you too, 14:38.844 --> 14:42.281 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that we were obligated to join in this discussion 14:42.281 --> 14:44.850 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as early as we could be to sort of say, 14:44.850 --> 14:46.518 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're seeing a lot of smoke, 14:46.518 --> 14:48.120 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we're pulling the fire alarm. 14:48.120 --> 14:49.321 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It isn't yet fire. 14:49.321 --> 14:51.156 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're not equating this with the Holocaust. 14:51.156 --> 14:53.592 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We are just saying that within the context 14:53.592 --> 14:55.361 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of a study of authoritarianism, 14:55.361 --> 15:00.332 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in the context of how great nations fail we are at peril, 15:02.268 --> 15:05.504 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it is important for us to do what we do best, 15:05.504 --> 15:07.907 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is tell stories about the American past 15:07.907 --> 15:11.176 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to share our concerns about this present 15:11.176 --> 15:13.479 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and to show what are in some ways, 15:13.479 --> 15:16.548 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% startling in eerie as you're alluding to 15:16.548 --> 15:20.286 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% not coincidences, but rhymes, 15:20.286 --> 15:23.255 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Mark Twain would say from the story of the rise of 15:23.255 --> 15:25.291 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Adolf Hitler, and, 15:25.291 --> 15:27.693 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% what's been going on in this country and indeed around 15:27.693 --> 15:30.663 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the world, this is not uniquely American phenomenon. 15:30.663 --> 15:32.698 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Of course and so we're, we're thinking 15:32.698 --> 15:35.100 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in larger global terms about it, but that's 15:35.100 --> 15:39.138 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it was a heartbreaking story of course, 15:39.138 --> 15:41.106 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to try to get to the bottom of, 15:41.106 --> 15:44.076 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also terrifying in many ways as well. 15:46.445 --> 15:48.547 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I actually thought... 15:48.547 --> 15:51.216 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So this is a question for Lynn. 15:51.216 --> 15:53.686 align:left position:30% line:83% size:60% I thought it was interesting that 15:53.686 --> 15:56.989 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in a film that was about the Holocaust, 15:56.989 --> 16:01.160 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which is a very Jewish story, it is a Jewish story. 16:01.160 --> 16:05.164 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You brought in a lot of historians who were not Jewish, 16:05.164 --> 16:08.167 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who were black, who were Asian, who were Irish, 16:08.167 --> 16:11.971 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% who tied all of this in 16:11.971 --> 16:16.709 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the virulent antisemitism in America at the time 16:16.709 --> 16:20.646 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the racism at the time in America, 16:20.646 --> 16:23.248 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% with the genocide of native Americans at the time, 16:23.248 --> 16:26.218 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% it seemed like a very modern, 16:26.218 --> 16:27.786 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for lack of a better term, 16:27.786 --> 16:30.155 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a very modern documentary in the sense that 16:30.155 --> 16:33.125 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it wasn't just Jewish voices telling this story. 16:33.125 --> 16:34.960 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought that was a really interesting choice. 16:34.960 --> 16:36.996 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Can you talk about that a little bit? 16:36.996 --> 16:38.430 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Yes. I just... 16:38.430 --> 16:40.032 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I wanna give a huge amount of credit for that 16:40.032 --> 16:41.467 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to Sarah Botstein, our partner, 16:41.467 --> 16:44.470 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that was something she championed very specifically 16:44.470 --> 16:46.205 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in our, on our team. 16:46.205 --> 16:48.941 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we completely agree that it was the right thing to do. 16:48.941 --> 16:50.509 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is a human story. 16:50.509 --> 16:54.046 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is the victims of the Holocaust are 16:54.046 --> 16:57.316 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Jewish population of Europe that was eliminated 16:57.316 --> 16:58.751 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% ally and horribly. 16:58.751 --> 17:01.286 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But as human beings, we need to understand it. 17:01.286 --> 17:05.257 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And as Americans, we wanted to understand how our own ideas, 17:05.257 --> 17:08.160 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% our own culture, our own ideology, 17:08.160 --> 17:11.764 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% our own hierarchies, all these things, 17:11.764 --> 17:16.769 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% are part of the mix of ideas, influencing Hitler, 17:17.903 --> 17:19.271 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which we saw in the clip, you know, 17:19.271 --> 17:21.540 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what he admired about us and what he, 17:21.540 --> 17:23.742 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% what lessons he took from our history. 17:23.742 --> 17:26.979 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And also to understand that when, you know, 17:26.979 --> 17:29.214 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the time came for the United States to criticize 17:29.214 --> 17:30.516 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Nazi Germany, 17:30.516 --> 17:33.185 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we didn't have such a great leg to stand on 17:33.185 --> 17:34.686 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% given our own history. 17:34.686 --> 17:37.256 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so the Germans could look to us and say, well, 17:37.256 --> 17:39.992 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you treat a whole group of people in your society 17:39.992 --> 17:40.959 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as second class citizens, 17:40.959 --> 17:42.061 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that's what we're doing. 17:42.061 --> 17:43.462 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And we even, you know, 17:43.462 --> 17:45.097 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% came there and studied exactly how you do it in terms 17:45.097 --> 17:46.565 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of our Jim Crow laws. 17:46.565 --> 17:49.034 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So, you know, there's just a context here 17:49.034 --> 17:50.736 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and there's a dynamic and it's fluid. 17:50.736 --> 17:52.771 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so it's not so simple to say, 17:52.771 --> 17:55.407 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we're over here and we're the good guys and we're perfect 17:55.407 --> 17:56.341 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and we're exceptional. 17:56.341 --> 17:58.043 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And we never do anything to be, 17:58.043 --> 17:59.411 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, criticized for and over. 17:59.411 --> 18:01.213 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% There are the evil monsters. 18:01.213 --> 18:03.549 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And, you know, it's just... 18:03.549 --> 18:06.251 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There's a lot more nuance and complexity here when we want 18:06.251 --> 18:08.153 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to have as many different voices as possible, 18:08.153 --> 18:09.388 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% help us unpack all of that. 18:09.388 --> 18:12.291 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And fueling this authoritarian debate, 18:12.291 --> 18:14.293 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of course, in the United States, 18:14.293 --> 18:17.963 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is this seduction of eugenics, 18:17.963 --> 18:22.968 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% which is this simple pseudoscience that is trying to create 18:24.336 --> 18:26.839 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a hierarchy of race and nationalities and ethnicities, 18:26.839 --> 18:29.141 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is a complete and utter fiction, 18:29.141 --> 18:31.110 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but people buy into it. 18:31.110 --> 18:33.278 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it's part of the authoritarian playbook 18:33.278 --> 18:35.981 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to speak to the otherness of people. 18:35.981 --> 18:38.684 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% That's the central thing that you do is you create 18:38.684 --> 18:42.488 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a them so that the us can be angry. 18:42.488 --> 18:46.925 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And what I think is clear and why the film is populated 18:46.925 --> 18:51.930 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and also made by not just Jews, but Gentiles as well. 18:52.798 --> 18:54.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It's populated, as you said, 18:54.133 --> 18:55.667 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% with a variety of people is 18:55.667 --> 18:58.537 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'cause there's only one race and that's the human race. 18:58.537 --> 19:01.039 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this story is all of our stories. 19:01.039 --> 19:04.443 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it's super important to sort of cohere together 19:04.443 --> 19:08.680 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in a unified stand against these impulses of othering 19:08.680 --> 19:12.084 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of telling people that the real threat, 19:12.084 --> 19:16.188 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the reason why we lost the first world war that Hitler said 19:16.188 --> 19:21.026 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was because people inside the Jews, you know, sabotaged us. 19:21.026 --> 19:24.496 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And this is the beginning of the a, you know, 19:24.496 --> 19:27.566 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the dehumanization of the other. 19:27.566 --> 19:30.202 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I wanna ask one quick question before we get to our next 19:30.202 --> 19:33.071 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% clip, that will, I think, lead us into it. 19:33.071 --> 19:36.275 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But I wanted to talk about 19:36.275 --> 19:40.379 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this idea of American exceptionalism 19:40.379 --> 19:42.281 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that you get at in the film. 19:42.281 --> 19:44.349 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in the very beginning of the film, 19:44.349 --> 19:46.185 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you kind of lead in with this site, 19:46.185 --> 19:49.054 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this idea of taking a hard look at our history 19:49.054 --> 19:51.523 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and which again, 19:51.523 --> 19:53.659 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% feeds right into the discourse 19:53.659 --> 19:55.561 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we've been having in our country 19:55.561 --> 19:58.163 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for the last few years of are we strong enough to 19:58.163 --> 20:00.699 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% speak honestly about our history 20:00.699 --> 20:04.203 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and do we have to continue whitewashing it 20:04.203 --> 20:06.538 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and patting ourselves on the back and telling us 20:06.538 --> 20:08.407 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're the anneloid good guys, 20:08.407 --> 20:09.841 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and that we're always 20:09.841 --> 20:14.846 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% on the right side of history to cohere as a nation. 20:16.515 --> 20:19.585 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That's generally so far, you know, in the US, 20:19.585 --> 20:22.421 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and this discourse has been a story about the native 20:22.421 --> 20:24.122 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% American genocide about slavery 20:24.122 --> 20:26.825 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and segregation and so forth. 20:26.825 --> 20:31.263 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was interesting that you took that discussion Lynn, 20:31.263 --> 20:33.832 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as you said, and made it an international one that, 20:33.832 --> 20:36.168 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, the US hasn't always been 20:36.168 --> 20:37.769 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% on the right side of history. 20:39.871 --> 20:42.074 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I mean, we, you know, 20:42.074 --> 20:45.110 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think we wanna celebrate the things that we can celebrate. 20:45.110 --> 20:46.945 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we wanna look honestly at the past 20:46.945 --> 20:48.747 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and tell the truth to ourselves 20:48.747 --> 20:50.515 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about things that have happened so we can move 20:50.515 --> 20:53.552 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% forward in a healthy and productive way. 20:53.552 --> 20:58.257 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think we all believe America's capable of that, 20:58.257 --> 21:01.159 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we can do that and that we need to do that. 21:01.159 --> 21:03.061 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And that if we are stuck in this 21:05.631 --> 21:09.001 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% alternative reality that you just described, 21:09.001 --> 21:12.471 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I don't see how we can understand our present 21:12.471 --> 21:16.008 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or our past it's, you know, that's the mythologizing 21:16.008 --> 21:18.310 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of history, the whitewash and sanitizing simplifying 21:18.310 --> 21:20.112 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% all those kind of words. 21:20.112 --> 21:21.046 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right? 21:21.046 --> 21:22.648 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'Cause in world war II, right? 21:24.049 --> 21:26.184 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The US was the anneloid good guy versus the bad guys. 21:26.184 --> 21:27.953 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this is a much more complicated story. 21:27.953 --> 21:29.354 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Sorry Ken. 21:29.354 --> 21:30.822 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - No, it's no, that's exactly what I was gonna say. 21:30.822 --> 21:33.492 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, we call the second world war the good war. 21:33.492 --> 21:35.327 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It is the worst war ever. 21:35.327 --> 21:36.795 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Our chapter, 21:36.795 --> 21:40.132 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the first chapter of our film Lynn and my film on this, 21:40.132 --> 21:43.268 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we called it unnecessary war is one of the pilots that we 21:43.268 --> 21:44.836 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% interviewed described it. 21:44.836 --> 21:46.004 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% It wasn't... 21:46.004 --> 21:47.506 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There wasn't anything good about it. 21:47.506 --> 21:49.975 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It was in fact the worst war, the most number of deaths, 21:49.975 --> 21:52.311 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the greatest cataclysm in human history. 21:52.311 --> 21:55.547 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think as we're enjoining this, you know, 21:55.547 --> 21:59.117 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% too often, we find ourselves indivicive postures 21:59.117 --> 22:00.886 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we are making arguments to each other 22:00.886 --> 22:02.688 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the arguments don't do anything. 22:02.688 --> 22:06.191 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The only thing that can do that is to overcome them. 22:06.191 --> 22:07.759 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The novelist Richard Power says 22:07.759 --> 22:11.930 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is to tell a good story and a complicated one and a nuanced 22:11.930 --> 22:14.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% one that is able to engage all of these things. 22:14.666 --> 22:17.102 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The tendency is to be kind of binary. 22:17.102 --> 22:20.305 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Well, if you're saying that we're not exceptional, 22:20.305 --> 22:21.540 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that we must be bad. 22:21.540 --> 22:22.474 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So you're saying we're bad. 22:22.474 --> 22:23.975 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We're saying no, these things, 22:23.975 --> 22:25.510 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% we are a nation of immigrants. 22:25.510 --> 22:27.979 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We have been a nation that has welcomed people. 22:27.979 --> 22:30.048 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there are times when we are not that. 22:30.048 --> 22:34.219 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And it is important in storytelling to be able to accept 22:34.219 --> 22:35.887 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and do that. 22:35.887 --> 22:38.357 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I mean, I.F Stone, 22:38.357 --> 22:40.659 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the progressive political writer, 22:40.659 --> 22:44.663 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I.F Stone was asked by an accolade how we could possibly 22:44.663 --> 22:48.133 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% admire Thomas Jefferson, right? 22:48.133 --> 22:49.701 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% For all the kinds of arguments 22:49.701 --> 22:51.570 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and discussions we're having today. 22:51.570 --> 22:52.971 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And Stone said to him, 22:52.971 --> 22:57.709 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because history is not melodrama, it's tragedy, right? 22:58.910 --> 23:01.546 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In melodrama, it seems to me that all villains 23:01.546 --> 23:02.914 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% are perfectly villainous 23:02.914 --> 23:05.984 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and all heroes are perfectly, you know, virtuous. 23:05.984 --> 23:07.452 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's not the way it works. 23:07.452 --> 23:10.389 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so you end up with a country founded on the ideal 23:10.389 --> 23:12.023 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that all men are created equal, 23:12.023 --> 23:13.759 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% a second sentence of a declaration 23:13.759 --> 23:17.496 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% written by a man who owned hundreds of human beings, 23:17.496 --> 23:20.298 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that's tragedy and that's human life. 23:20.298 --> 23:22.768 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And you cannot proceed forward. 23:22.768 --> 23:26.138 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You cannot even assume any mantle of exceptionalism 23:26.138 --> 23:28.840 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unless you're willing to tolerate those 23:28.840 --> 23:29.975 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% kinds of contradictions, 23:29.975 --> 23:31.410 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that kind of undertow. 23:31.410 --> 23:34.946 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Otherwise it's just a melodrama and it's fiction. 23:36.381 --> 23:38.250 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And, you know, to bring it to our topic for tonight, 23:38.250 --> 23:41.019 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it seems like that's how we get into authoritarianism. 23:41.019 --> 23:43.455 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'd be curious what Michael has to say about that 23:43.455 --> 23:45.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because it's just that kind of, you know, 23:45.524 --> 23:48.727 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% lies and propaganda basically mythologizing 23:48.727 --> 23:51.696 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that is so dangerous. 23:51.696 --> 23:53.632 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, if I just may interject one thing 23:53.632 --> 23:54.933 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and thanks for having me, 23:54.933 --> 23:58.403 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Ken and Lynn and Julia. 23:58.403 --> 23:59.738 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% What was going through my head 23:59.738 --> 24:01.039 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about American exceptionalism 24:01.039 --> 24:02.541 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when you ask that question Julia 24:02.541 --> 24:05.777 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is the link between what's happening in our country 24:05.777 --> 24:07.679 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and what's happening around the world. 24:07.679 --> 24:10.449 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% 'Cause I do profoundly think that there's a link. 24:10.449 --> 24:14.586 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I think as Ken has done in many of its films, you know, 24:14.586 --> 24:17.622 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% America has these incredible founding ideals 24:17.622 --> 24:19.891 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the story of American history is our struggle 24:19.891 --> 24:22.327 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to live up to those ideals. 24:22.327 --> 24:23.929 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, the part of this movie, 24:23.929 --> 24:26.465 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which is so brilliantly told is about our struggle 24:26.465 --> 24:30.235 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to live up to those ideals in a perfect, in, 24:30.235 --> 24:32.103 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a certain period of time. 24:32.103 --> 24:34.873 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But what I find important to just emphasize is that 24:34.873 --> 24:37.542 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for all the mistakes we've made, 24:37.542 --> 24:40.846 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and there have been many catalog in many of the films that 24:40.846 --> 24:43.748 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% these do have worked on, including the Vietnam story, 24:43.748 --> 24:46.384 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, people do look to America, 24:46.384 --> 24:48.887 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% immigrants want to come to America, 24:48.887 --> 24:50.355 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% not to other countries. 24:50.355 --> 24:54.125 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% People expect when America is up to those ideals, 24:54.125 --> 24:57.629 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that is the best thing that we can do for the cause of 24:57.629 --> 24:58.864 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% global democracy. 24:58.864 --> 25:00.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And honestly, I know this may sound corny, 25:00.966 --> 25:03.568 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but if America does not live up to those ideals, 25:03.568 --> 25:06.438 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the cause of global democracy is gonna really be set back. 25:06.438 --> 25:07.706 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And I worry about that. 25:07.706 --> 25:09.908 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So there's a direct link between the two 25:09.908 --> 25:11.376 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that we need to be reminded of. 25:11.376 --> 25:13.678 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that I think is really brought forward in this film. 25:13.678 --> 25:14.546 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Amen. 25:14.546 --> 25:15.814 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - All right. 25:15.814 --> 25:17.582 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Let's put a pin in that and go to our next clip. 25:17.582 --> 25:19.117 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Yeah. Yeah. 25:19.117 --> 25:20.352 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Let me tell you, just set it up a little bit Julia. 25:20.352 --> 25:23.655 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Hitler that we met in the last, 25:23.655 --> 25:26.725 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the opening clip is a Hitler who is dreaming 25:26.725 --> 25:28.493 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the future of, 25:28.493 --> 25:30.729 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Germany and what it would mean from a jail cell, 25:30.729 --> 25:33.698 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because he's been involved in a kind of coup attempt 25:33.698 --> 25:38.703 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and insurrection, I guess, and he's, you know, 25:39.571 --> 25:41.973 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% plotting this vision of Germany. 25:41.973 --> 25:44.676 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Now things have moved ahead 25:44.676 --> 25:47.779 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and we're in a position to sort of catch up with him 25:47.779 --> 25:49.781 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a little bit later in our story. 25:49.781 --> 25:51.383 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So that's the second clip. 25:54.452 --> 25:57.355 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (indistinct music) 26:00.926 --> 26:03.228 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] The great depression spread relentlessly 26:03.228 --> 26:04.896 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% around the world. 26:04.896 --> 26:06.398 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% In Germany, 26:06.398 --> 26:09.935 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% more than a third of the adult population was without work. 26:11.369 --> 26:15.373 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Parliamentary democracy seemed powerless to improve things. 26:15.373 --> 26:17.876 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The Weimar Republic was teetering. 26:17.876 --> 26:19.611 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Governments came and went. 26:20.645 --> 26:23.381 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The search for scapegoats intensified. 26:25.183 --> 26:28.520 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% In the chaos, Hitler saw his chance. 26:30.121 --> 26:34.125 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% (speaking in foreign language) 26:43.134 --> 26:48.139 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In 1928 the Nazi share of the vote had been less than 3%. 26:49.541 --> 26:53.011 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% By 1932 theirs was the largest party in Germany, 26:53.011 --> 26:55.513 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but still not large enough to form a government. 26:56.715 --> 26:58.650 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% To appeal, to moderates 26:58.650 --> 27:00.986 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Nazis downplayed their antisemitism, 27:00.986 --> 27:04.889 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and they stepped up street warfare against socialists 27:04.889 --> 27:07.058 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and communists to convince voters 27:07.058 --> 27:09.527 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that civil war was imminent. 27:11.196 --> 27:14.332 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Then a small group of elite conservatives stepped in 27:14.332 --> 27:18.403 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and on January 30th, 1933 saw to it 27:18.403 --> 27:21.206 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that Hitler was appointed chancellor, 27:21.206 --> 27:24.075 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% confident that they could control him. 27:24.075 --> 27:25.243 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We have hired him 27:25.243 --> 27:27.445 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% one of them told a friend in a few months, 27:27.445 --> 27:29.614 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we will have pushed him so far into the corner 27:29.614 --> 27:31.583 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that he will squeak. 27:32.851 --> 27:34.219 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% They had misjudged him. 27:35.387 --> 27:36.688 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Timothy] The people who brought Hitler 27:36.688 --> 27:38.590 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to power didn't necessarily 27:38.590 --> 27:40.025 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% share all of his ideas. 27:40.025 --> 27:41.526 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% In fact, they didn't. 27:41.526 --> 27:44.562 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But what they did believe was that we can't have democracy 27:44.562 --> 27:46.898 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% anymore because if we have democracy, 27:46.898 --> 27:49.334 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% then the left and the labor unions, 27:49.334 --> 27:51.336 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they're gonna take all of the power. 27:52.737 --> 27:55.640 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the people who brought Hitler to power were conscious 27:55.640 --> 27:59.477 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and aware, and desires of doing away with democracy. 28:02.347 --> 28:04.749 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Within two months with the ruthlessness 28:04.749 --> 28:07.385 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that stunned supporters and opponents alike, 28:07.385 --> 28:09.688 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Hitler bullied the parliament, 28:09.688 --> 28:12.257 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Rike Stag into granting him the powers 28:12.257 --> 28:14.225 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of an absolute dictator. 28:17.595 --> 28:20.398 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The morning after Hitler took power, local Nazis, 28:20.398 --> 28:25.403 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% staged victory marches throughout the country in Hilda sign, 28:26.871 --> 28:30.442 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Stern family's apartment overlooked the parade route. 28:31.443 --> 28:32.977 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - [Gunther] We stayed home. 28:32.977 --> 28:37.315 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And my parents said, don't even look out the window. 28:39.451 --> 28:44.456 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And at the very tail end of that parade for my classmates, 28:46.024 --> 28:51.029 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% my father called my brother into our, 28:51.896 --> 28:53.965 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% what was called the gutashtuba, 28:53.965 --> 28:57.001 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which was the best room in the apartment. 28:57.001 --> 29:00.305 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he said to us, sit down, boys, 29:00.305 --> 29:01.706 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I have something to tell you. 29:02.841 --> 29:07.378 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And what he said was don't stick out. 29:07.378 --> 29:10.448 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He who sticks out, gets stuck. 29:11.583 --> 29:14.419 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We took him seriously. 29:14.419 --> 29:18.256 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He said, be like invisible ink. 29:18.256 --> 29:23.061 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% In other words, what you are will someday come out again. 29:23.061 --> 29:27.398 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But at this time fade into the crowd. 29:34.172 --> 29:38.009 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Franklin] I Franklin Delano Roosevelt do solemnly swear 29:38.009 --> 29:41.379 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that I will faithfully execute the office of 29:41.379 --> 29:43.314 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% president of the United States. 29:43.314 --> 29:45.583 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] The United States had a new leader 29:45.583 --> 29:46.718 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that winter too. 29:48.153 --> 29:52.357 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Franklin Delano Roosevelt was sworn in as the 32nd 29:52.357 --> 29:54.392 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% president on March 4th. 29:56.227 --> 30:00.865 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The economic situation had steadily worsened since 1929. 30:00.865 --> 30:03.902 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So steadily that some Americans on both sides 30:03.902 --> 30:06.671 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the aisle urged the new president also 30:06.671 --> 30:09.574 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to assume dictatorial powers. 30:11.509 --> 30:13.044 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% In his inaugural address, 30:13.044 --> 30:16.381 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he assured Americans that the only thing we have to fear is 30:16.381 --> 30:21.386 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% fear itself, but he also warned that if all else failed. 30:22.520 --> 30:23.922 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Franklin] I shall ask the Congress 30:23.922 --> 30:27.025 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for the one remaining instrument to meet the crisis 30:27.025 --> 30:31.596 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% fraud, executive power, 30:31.596 --> 30:34.365 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to wage a war against the emergency 30:34.365 --> 30:38.703 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as take as the power that would be given to me, 30:38.703 --> 30:43.208 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% if we were in fact invaded by a foreign quo. 30:43.208 --> 30:45.276 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% (audience cheering) 30:45.276 --> 30:48.179 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] His wife Eleanor remembered that she'd found 30:48.179 --> 30:51.049 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the crowd's enthusiastic reaction to that line 30:51.049 --> 30:53.017 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a little terrifying. 30:57.322 --> 31:00.124 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So I too found that a little terrifying, 31:00.124 --> 31:02.026 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but also predictable. 31:02.026 --> 31:06.431 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It made me think of January 6th, 31:06.431 --> 31:09.267 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% as you Ken mentioned, 31:09.267 --> 31:12.136 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and all of the commentary that day, which was, 31:12.136 --> 31:13.504 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% this is America. 31:13.504 --> 31:15.039 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% This is not who we are. 31:15.039 --> 31:18.776 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I'm used to seeing this in Russia or in be Burkina Faso. 31:18.776 --> 31:20.478 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% This doesn't happen in America. 31:20.478 --> 31:22.547 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Well, you know, it happened. 31:22.547 --> 31:25.783 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there was inter I'm actually looking at it right now. 31:25.783 --> 31:28.987 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There was a poll that was just published by Axios 31:28.987 --> 31:30.488 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% the other day, 31:30.488 --> 31:34.025 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that one third of Americans say today that they prefer 31:34.025 --> 31:36.060 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% having a strong unelected leader 31:36.060 --> 31:38.897 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% than to having a weak elected leader. 31:38.897 --> 31:43.902 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the extent to which democracy is almost unnatural, 31:45.336 --> 31:48.806 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% hard work and authoritarianism is a kind of easy default 31:48.806 --> 31:51.943 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% into which people can slide. 31:51.943 --> 31:56.915 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The way in which your film kind of addresses this kind of, 31:58.349 --> 32:02.620 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and I would say knocks down this idea of American 32:02.620 --> 32:05.390 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% exceptionalism that we just have democracy in our blood 32:05.390 --> 32:09.160 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that we just always default toward democracy. 32:09.160 --> 32:13.264 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought that was a really interesting thing to show. 32:13.264 --> 32:15.400 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - I couldn't agree with you more. 32:15.400 --> 32:19.704 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It's so frightening that statistic of 30% sounds awful. 32:19.704 --> 32:20.972 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - 33. 32:20.972 --> 32:23.908 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - 33% sounds like awful lot, like the Nazi share 32:23.908 --> 32:25.810 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% of the vote. 32:25.810 --> 32:28.813 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then you see what kinds of things you do. 32:28.813 --> 32:30.848 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% The sort of creating of big lies, 32:30.848 --> 32:32.617 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the blaming of others, 32:32.617 --> 32:34.686 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the stepping up street warfare, 32:34.686 --> 32:37.588 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% convincing people you're on the verge of a civil war, 32:37.588 --> 32:40.825 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is therefore require a strong leader. 32:40.825 --> 32:45.797 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, it's so interesting that I have Stone's friend 32:45.797 --> 32:49.834 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thomas Jefferson also in the declaration really writes 32:49.834 --> 32:51.436 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% rarely clearly that mankind 32:51.436 --> 32:55.974 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% is inclined to suffer tyranny. 32:57.675 --> 33:00.578 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is the hard effort as you're suggesting 33:00.578 --> 33:05.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to make the hard work of democracy work 33:06.918 --> 33:11.089 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that the seducing tones of getting the trains 33:12.957 --> 33:17.428 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to run on time is sort of built into us. 33:17.428 --> 33:21.599 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that democracy becomes a kind of conscious effort 33:21.599 --> 33:26.504 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to outgrow what is often a default human position. 33:26.504 --> 33:30.308 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so I think this is why this story 33:30.308 --> 33:32.677 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that we're trying to tell is so critical 33:32.677 --> 33:35.580 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% for the heartbreaking tragedy at the heart of it, 33:35.580 --> 33:37.949 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but also for all of these ingredients 33:37.949 --> 33:42.553 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that suggest how incredibly fragile things are right now 33:42.553 --> 33:46.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in the United States, which I cannot believe. 33:46.524 --> 33:49.027 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I just said what I said. 33:49.027 --> 33:49.861 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 33:49.861 --> 33:51.095 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It made me think again, 33:51.095 --> 33:52.797 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% watching this film made me think again, 33:52.797 --> 33:55.666 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of your film prohibition, which I watched, 33:55.666 --> 33:58.936 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% unfortunately in 2017, 33:58.936 --> 34:01.572 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I remember it being so shocking because it had some 34:01.572 --> 34:06.577 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the same themes about the rural conservative white, 34:07.445 --> 34:10.248 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% religious minority against 34:10.248 --> 34:14.318 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the urban heavily immigrant majority. 34:14.318 --> 34:18.589 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that this minority was able to push through 34:18.589 --> 34:21.092 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% a constitutional amendment. 34:21.092 --> 34:22.627 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% That's really hard to do. 34:22.627 --> 34:24.796 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I remember watching that in 2017 and thinking they're 34:24.796 --> 34:25.763 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% gonna do this again. 34:25.763 --> 34:27.365 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I thought about that when, 34:27.365 --> 34:31.169 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, they overturned Roe V Wade with a six, 34:31.169 --> 34:33.504 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% three majority, even though it's clearly a minority. 34:33.504 --> 34:34.939 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well just look at the conservatives 34:34.939 --> 34:36.607 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who support Hitler, right? 34:36.607 --> 34:38.543 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Not only do they think they're gonna control them, 34:38.543 --> 34:39.777 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% does that sound familiar? 34:39.777 --> 34:42.246 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're and he, and he, you know, 34:42.246 --> 34:43.548 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% humiliates all of them, 34:43.548 --> 34:47.752 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but there is a sense that they are perceiving 34:47.752 --> 34:49.654 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that they're about to lose power, 34:49.654 --> 34:51.422 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that there is going to be a dominant, 34:51.422 --> 34:54.258 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% as we would say today, progressive majority. 34:54.258 --> 34:58.396 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And that the only way to maintain power is to 34:58.396 --> 35:01.866 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% subvert the processes of majority rule, 35:01.866 --> 35:04.869 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which we are seeing in all the attempts to steal 35:04.869 --> 35:06.337 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the election and all of the, 35:06.337 --> 35:10.007 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% undermining of the institutions and all of these things. 35:10.007 --> 35:15.012 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% This is just, you know, as the song says the same old story. 35:15.480 --> 35:16.948 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 35:16.948 --> 35:18.483 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Julia, if I may say one thing about that clip, 35:18.483 --> 35:21.586 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, it's interesting to me that both Roosevelt 35:21.586 --> 35:25.623 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Hitler took power about the same time, 35:25.623 --> 35:30.128 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and that's kind of captured in the clip. 35:30.128 --> 35:31.629 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% At the time, you know, 35:31.629 --> 35:34.365 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% democracy was really not the default position in the world. 35:34.365 --> 35:36.934 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There were maybe a handful of democracies, you know, 35:36.934 --> 35:39.704 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% today we have more than a hundred democracies. 35:39.704 --> 35:41.339 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And, you know, we, 35:41.339 --> 35:43.341 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we're now in a position of wanting to fight, 35:43.341 --> 35:45.843 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to keep what we have as opposed to trying to gain it. 35:45.843 --> 35:50.748 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But what's interesting to me is that both America and Nazi 35:50.748 --> 35:53.584 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and Germany were in the early thirties 35:53.584 --> 35:57.088 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% among the most advanced democracies in the world. 35:57.088 --> 36:00.191 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Germany turned dark. 36:00.191 --> 36:03.161 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% You know, Hitler basically became a dictator 36:03.161 --> 36:04.362 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% within several months. 36:04.362 --> 36:08.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% You know, quickly dismantled the apparatus 36:08.666 --> 36:10.301 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the VMar Republic, 36:10.301 --> 36:11.969 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% which had come before him. 36:11.969 --> 36:12.904 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% On the other hand, 36:12.904 --> 36:15.139 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% America was under great stress. 36:15.139 --> 36:18.442 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% America was faced in the greatest economic calamity 36:18.442 --> 36:20.945 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of its really its history. 36:20.945 --> 36:25.082 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It flirted with radical ideologies 36:25.082 --> 36:27.285 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% like communism and fascism. 36:27.285 --> 36:31.289 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And yet the institutions held Roosevelt 36:31.289 --> 36:33.758 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% did not try to seize that power that he had kind of 36:33.758 --> 36:36.360 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% so tantalizingly held out that he might seek 36:36.360 --> 36:39.430 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in that speech he gave. 36:39.430 --> 36:42.300 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so I think that's a really important point that that 36:42.300 --> 36:45.703 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% democracy is fragile and that it has to be fought for 36:45.703 --> 36:48.506 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that the institutions have to hold. 36:48.506 --> 36:50.708 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think one thing that's very heartening about what happened 36:50.708 --> 36:53.911 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in 2020 is that despite everything bad 36:53.911 --> 36:56.180 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and there's a lot to bad that happened, 36:56.180 --> 36:58.049 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the institution's held. 36:58.049 --> 36:59.584 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 36:59.584 --> 37:00.885 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - The question for us today is whether the institutions will 37:00.885 --> 37:01.819 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% continue to hold. 37:01.819 --> 37:03.354 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - That's right. 37:03.354 --> 37:06.791 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - I have a question later for you about institutions 37:06.791 --> 37:07.725 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and the role they play. 37:07.725 --> 37:09.393 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% 'Cause I feel like in this film, 37:09.393 --> 37:13.998 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they play quite an inciduous role and in the US 37:15.299 --> 37:16.767 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% you're seeing, 37:16.767 --> 37:19.770 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think the latest statistic was that in November 60% 37:19.770 --> 37:23.274 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of Americans will see an election denier on their ballot. 37:23.274 --> 37:25.343 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That also says something about institutions 37:25.343 --> 37:26.711 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and the extent to which they can be 37:26.711 --> 37:28.512 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% infiltrated and controlled. 37:28.512 --> 37:30.047 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% But let's put that aside. 37:30.047 --> 37:31.282 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I have a feeling, 37:31.282 --> 37:33.718 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this question is for Michael and for Lynn. 37:35.553 --> 37:37.922 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So far, the audience has seen Gunther 37:37.922 --> 37:39.690 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who is an unbelievable character. 37:39.690 --> 37:44.695 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He is so heartwarming and tragic at the same time, 37:46.097 --> 37:48.633 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but he's not the only survivor you interview in the film. 37:48.633 --> 37:53.104 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it was striking to see at this late date when so many 37:53.104 --> 37:55.539 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% survivors have left us already, 37:55.539 --> 37:58.042 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when the memory of the Holocaust is fading in part, 37:58.042 --> 38:00.778 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% because they're mostly gone. 38:02.346 --> 38:04.548 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Where did you find these survivors? 38:04.548 --> 38:06.951 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And is this a function of how early 38:06.951 --> 38:09.620 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and how far back you started the filming this? 38:09.620 --> 38:10.888 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 38:10.888 --> 38:11.889 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Well, whenever we started a project, 38:11.889 --> 38:13.424 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's gonna deal with something 38:13.424 --> 38:15.092 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that happened some years ago. 38:15.092 --> 38:17.795 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The first thing that we do and say about Sinai and I spend 38:17.795 --> 38:20.231 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% an enormous amount of time on this with our producing team 38:20.231 --> 38:23.467 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is finding people whose stories we can, you know, collect. 38:23.467 --> 38:25.236 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And the Holocaust museum was 38:25.236 --> 38:28.873 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% extremely helpful as well as some of our scholars. 38:28.873 --> 38:30.408 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And you know, 38:30.408 --> 38:32.076 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we look for people who could help us understand different 38:32.076 --> 38:35.746 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% aspects of the way that the story of the Holocaust and the 38:35.746 --> 38:37.948 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% story of America were intertwined. 38:37.948 --> 38:39.450 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so in the case of Gunther, 38:39.450 --> 38:44.221 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we wanted to find somebody who escaped from Europe 38:44.221 --> 38:46.691 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and came to the US a man, 38:46.691 --> 38:50.594 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and then went back to fight in the American military 38:50.594 --> 38:52.096 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% against the Germans. 38:52.096 --> 38:54.598 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there's number of people who experienced that. 38:54.598 --> 38:56.133 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But as you said, 38:56.133 --> 38:58.069 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not so many are alive because you had to be of military age 38:58.069 --> 39:02.206 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% during the war Gunther Stern was 98 when we interviewed him. 39:02.206 --> 39:03.641 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 39:03.641 --> 39:04.575 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And he's now 100. So- 39:04.575 --> 39:06.210 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Still Alive? 39:06.210 --> 39:07.144 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 39:07.144 --> 39:08.245 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - Everyone is still alive. 39:08.245 --> 39:09.647 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Wow. 39:09.647 --> 39:13.250 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - And that was, we interviewed him in March of 2020, 39:13.250 --> 39:14.952 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% right before, 39:14.952 --> 39:17.822 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% literally days before the entire world shut down. 39:17.822 --> 39:19.990 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we're so grateful that he was willing to come to New York 39:19.990 --> 39:23.294 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and do that interview for us and share his story. 39:23.294 --> 39:25.296 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it is an epic and tragic arc 39:25.296 --> 39:27.832 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and also full of life and hope. 39:27.832 --> 39:32.136 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that he's still here and bearing witness to the things 39:32.136 --> 39:35.139 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he saw and experienced and what happened to his family. 39:35.139 --> 39:36.474 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And so, and then we, you know, 39:36.474 --> 39:38.075 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we look for other people who could represent 39:38.075 --> 39:39.310 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% other aspects of this. 39:39.310 --> 39:41.712 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Family separation is a huge theme in this, 39:41.712 --> 39:43.180 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% from this time period. 39:43.180 --> 39:45.416 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And we met a brother and sister 39:45.416 --> 39:47.451 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who were separated from their parents. 39:47.451 --> 39:49.220 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Parents were in Germany, they got their children, 39:49.220 --> 39:52.356 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% two of their children out with a smuggler to France, 39:52.356 --> 39:54.525 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% not knowing that they'd ever be reunited. 39:54.525 --> 39:58.396 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And then the war came and a lot of chaos and upheaval 39:58.396 --> 39:59.964 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and trauma for the family. 39:59.964 --> 40:02.133 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And ultimately they were reunited, 40:02.133 --> 40:05.636 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but it's not a simple happy ending there either. 40:05.636 --> 40:08.139 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And then we, the story of the St. Louis 40:08.139 --> 40:11.742 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is extremely important iconics story of the Holocaust 40:11.742 --> 40:14.779 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and it's connection to the United States as well 40:14.779 --> 40:16.814 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because the ship full of refugees came very close 40:16.814 --> 40:18.048 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% to our shores. 40:18.048 --> 40:19.216 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Having been turned away from Cuba, 40:19.216 --> 40:20.951 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% where they were trying to go. 40:20.951 --> 40:23.320 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And even though they didn't have visas to come to America, 40:23.320 --> 40:25.222 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they tried to get into the United States 40:25.222 --> 40:26.857 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% and were turned away. 40:26.857 --> 40:30.895 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And that became quite a cause for many Jewish people 40:30.895 --> 40:33.130 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% around the world as representing America's 40:33.130 --> 40:35.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% turning its back on refugees. 40:35.466 --> 40:38.335 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And we found a man who was a child on that boat. 40:38.335 --> 40:39.804 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's not very many survivors left 40:39.804 --> 40:42.773 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the St. Louis saw messenger, who now lives in Buffalo. 40:42.773 --> 40:44.275 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He shared a story with us. 40:44.275 --> 40:47.077 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we were trying to fill in particular aspects. 40:47.077 --> 40:49.513 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there's another one I could speak about too. 40:49.513 --> 40:51.515 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But anyway, each person had to kind of fulfill 40:51.515 --> 40:53.217 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% a certain role in a way 40:53.217 --> 40:56.520 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in telling the story, but not to say we knew what to expect. 40:56.520 --> 40:59.223 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We just were looking for people who could sort of put us at 40:59.223 --> 41:01.425 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% different points of the compass if you will. 41:01.425 --> 41:02.893 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 41:02.893 --> 41:05.629 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But to be able to find the people who filled those roles 41:05.629 --> 41:09.433 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at such a late date, who were still alive is incredible. 41:09.433 --> 41:11.202 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - And let me say Julia. 41:11.202 --> 41:14.071 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I think that's the interviews with the survivors to me are 41:14.071 --> 41:17.541 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the most powerful parts of the film, you know, and sadly, 41:17.541 --> 41:20.644 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you know, this is not gonna be possible 41:20.644 --> 41:21.912 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in 10 to 15 years. 41:21.912 --> 41:23.814 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think it's an important point here 41:23.814 --> 41:27.585 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because there's already people who question the Holocaust. 41:27.585 --> 41:30.187 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There's people who question every genocide, 41:30.187 --> 41:31.722 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that's what you learn. 41:31.722 --> 41:34.358 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, you know, Eisenhower was actually so concerned 41:34.358 --> 41:35.860 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% about it. 41:35.860 --> 41:38.295 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there's a clip of this in the movie that he, you know, 41:38.295 --> 41:39.597 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% orders his top brass 41:39.597 --> 41:43.000 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and to come see the degradations 41:43.000 --> 41:46.770 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% at the concentration camps because he foresaw a time 41:46.770 --> 41:49.073 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% when people would question 41:49.073 --> 41:51.242 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that this event actually happened. 41:51.242 --> 41:54.678 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And so that's why it's so important to capture these voices 41:54.678 --> 41:58.549 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% right now, because believe me in 50, 100 years, 41:58.549 --> 42:02.086 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% there's gonna be an effort to deny that this happened, 42:02.086 --> 42:03.354 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% there already is. 42:03.354 --> 42:04.555 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think that's what's so powerful 42:04.555 --> 42:06.423 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% about those voices in this movie. 42:06.423 --> 42:07.658 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yeah. 42:07.658 --> 42:09.159 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there has been for decades, unfortunately, 42:09.159 --> 42:11.462 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and I think it will only grow. 42:11.462 --> 42:14.064 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So I think we should go to our third clip. 42:14.064 --> 42:15.466 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Do you wanna set that up? 42:15.466 --> 42:16.934 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Sure. 42:16.934 --> 42:19.270 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So we spent most of the first two clips with Hitler 42:19.270 --> 42:22.106 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% and Germany and the transformation of Germany briefly 42:22.106 --> 42:23.541 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% coming back to the United States 42:23.541 --> 42:25.242 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for the inauguration of Franklin Roosevelt. 42:25.242 --> 42:27.811 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And as Michael said, you know, 42:27.811 --> 42:30.414 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% this is takes work to maintain a democracy. 42:30.414 --> 42:31.715 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And in the United States, 42:31.715 --> 42:33.417 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they're not without stressors 42:33.417 --> 42:36.153 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and divisions and competing ideologies. 42:36.153 --> 42:41.158 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So the third clip is really just about an America, you know, 42:42.626 --> 42:46.163 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% torn on the bias in much the same way we are right now, 42:46.163 --> 42:50.467 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% divided in opinions about how we should be conducting 42:50.467 --> 42:54.471 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% ourself with regard to the international situation, 42:54.471 --> 42:59.043 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is epitomized by the developing peril, 42:59.043 --> 43:00.844 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% towards the Jews in Germany 43:00.844 --> 43:02.746 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and indeed in the increasingly, 43:02.746 --> 43:04.949 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the ever increasing third strike. 43:09.887 --> 43:12.623 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Charles] I speak tonight to those people in the 43:12.623 --> 43:15.926 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% United States of America who feel that the destiny 43:15.926 --> 43:18.862 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of this country does not call for our involvement 43:18.862 --> 43:21.465 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in European wars. 43:21.465 --> 43:22.933 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% We must- 43:22.933 --> 43:24.868 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] There was another voice on the radio now too. 43:24.868 --> 43:27.972 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The voice of the only American whose fame approached 43:27.972 --> 43:32.977 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Roosevelts, a celebrated aviator, Charles, A.Lindberg. 43:33.844 --> 43:36.180 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% His message was very different. 43:37.381 --> 43:39.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Charles] These wars in Europe are not wars 43:39.550 --> 43:40.985 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in which our civilization 43:40.985 --> 43:43.821 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% is defending itself against some Asiatic intruder. 43:44.989 --> 43:47.524 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This is not a question of banding together 43:47.524 --> 43:50.361 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to defend the white race against foreign invasion. 43:52.396 --> 43:54.999 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We must not permit our sentiment, our pity, 43:54.999 --> 43:57.001 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% or our personal feelings of sympathy 43:57.001 --> 44:01.005 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to obscure the issue, to affect our children's lives. 44:01.005 --> 44:04.208 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% We must be as impersonal as a surgeon with his knife. 44:05.643 --> 44:09.647 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Announcer] Lindbergh had first visited Germany in 1936, 44:09.647 --> 44:12.549 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that the invitation of the American military 44:12.549 --> 44:14.118 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% at TACHE in Berlin, 44:14.118 --> 44:16.887 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who was eager to glean information 44:16.887 --> 44:19.690 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about the fast growing Luswafa. 44:19.690 --> 44:22.126 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% He returned two more times. 44:23.994 --> 44:27.031 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The Nazis did everything they could to impress him, 44:27.031 --> 44:30.801 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% awarding him the service cross of the German Eagle 44:32.169 --> 44:35.172 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Lindbergh was impressed. 44:35.172 --> 44:39.777 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% He admired the regime's virility and emphasis on order. 44:39.777 --> 44:40.978 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% His wife, Anne 44:40.978 --> 44:44.314 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% thought Hitler a very great man maligned 44:44.314 --> 44:47.184 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by what she called Jewish propaganda. 44:48.585 --> 44:51.555 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% The couple had even considered moving to the leafy Berlin 44:51.555 --> 44:56.560 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% suburb of Vanse until Christal knocked, made them rethink. 44:57.961 --> 45:01.198 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% My admiration for the Germans is constantly being dashed 45:01.198 --> 45:05.602 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% against some such rock as this Lindbergh wrote privately. 45:05.602 --> 45:08.038 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I do not understand these riots. 45:08.038 --> 45:11.508 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% It seems contrary to their sense of order and intelligence. 45:11.508 --> 45:15.012 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They have undoubtedly had a difficult Jewish problem, 45:15.012 --> 45:19.750 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but why is it necessary to handle it so unreasonably? 45:21.285 --> 45:23.954 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% On his voyage home from Europe in 1938, 45:23.954 --> 45:27.424 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Lindbergh had been irritated by the number of Jewish 45:27.424 --> 45:30.360 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% refugees among his fellow passengers. 45:30.360 --> 45:33.831 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Imagine the United States taking these Jews 45:33.831 --> 45:35.399 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% in addition to those, 45:35.399 --> 45:38.769 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we already have he'd written in his diary. 45:38.769 --> 45:41.672 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There are too many places like New York, already, 45:41.672 --> 45:45.709 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a few Jews add strength and character to a country, 45:45.709 --> 45:49.279 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but too many create chaos. 45:49.279 --> 45:50.981 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And we are getting too many. 45:52.516 --> 45:55.986 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This present immigration will have its reaction. 45:57.755 --> 46:00.390 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - [Charles] Our bond with Europe is a bond of race 46:00.390 --> 46:02.526 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and not of political ideology. 46:03.660 --> 46:05.896 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is the European race we must preserve, 46:05.896 --> 46:08.665 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% political progress will follow, 46:08.665 --> 46:10.200 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% racial strength is vital. 46:10.200 --> 46:11.869 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Politics are luxury. 46:13.270 --> 46:15.305 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If the white race is ever seriously threatened, 46:15.305 --> 46:19.042 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it may then be time for us to take our part in its 46:19.042 --> 46:23.747 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% protection to fight side by side with English, French, 46:23.747 --> 46:27.284 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and Germans, but not with one against the other, 46:27.284 --> 46:29.086 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for our mutual destruction. 46:31.121 --> 46:32.990 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - [Announcer] If I should die tomorrow, 46:32.990 --> 46:34.358 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I want you to know this. 46:34.358 --> 46:36.026 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% The president told a friend, 46:36.026 --> 46:40.264 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I am absolutely convinced that Lindbergh is a Nazi. 46:42.266 --> 46:44.168 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% For the next 27 months, 46:44.168 --> 46:47.704 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Franklin Roosevelt and Charles Lindbergh would engage in a 46:47.704 --> 46:50.674 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% bitter struggle over whose vision of the country 46:50.674 --> 46:51.708 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% would prevail. 46:53.110 --> 46:56.713 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And about the future of Western civilization itself. 47:09.893 --> 47:11.662 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You know, this is not the first time 47:11.662 --> 47:15.132 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I'm seeing these scenes in it. 47:15.132 --> 47:16.266 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I'm still... 47:16.266 --> 47:17.901 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They still shake me to my core. 47:17.901 --> 47:19.736 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I see you, Ken and Lynn, 47:20.838 --> 47:22.139 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and I see you shaking your heads too. 47:22.139 --> 47:24.775 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They're still incredibly hard to watch. 47:26.710 --> 47:29.646 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And I wanted to ask about this. 47:29.646 --> 47:33.317 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% This film seemed to me a searing indictment 47:33.317 --> 47:38.322 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of American isolationism, which we're seeing. 47:39.189 --> 47:43.060 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We see reemerge periodically, 47:43.060 --> 47:45.729 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and we are seeing it emerge again now. 47:45.729 --> 47:48.365 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we're seeing people question whether the US 47:48.365 --> 47:51.034 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% should provide military aid or any kind of aid 47:51.034 --> 47:52.569 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to the Ukrainians. 47:52.569 --> 47:57.574 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% For example, in fighting Russia, we saw it in, you know, 47:58.442 --> 47:59.710 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% whether we should help Syrians, 47:59.710 --> 48:02.846 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% whether we should take in these people who are, 48:02.846 --> 48:04.281 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% who look different than us, 48:04.281 --> 48:06.917 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who have a funny religion that we don't like, 48:06.917 --> 48:10.287 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you addressed it in your film, Vietnam, right? 48:10.287 --> 48:12.923 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Where we kind of tend to spend our energy on the wrong wars 48:12.923 --> 48:14.892 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and when the right ones come around, 48:14.892 --> 48:19.096 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we're suddenly very conflicted about it. 48:19.096 --> 48:24.001 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And I wanted to ask you to articulate maybe even more 48:24.001 --> 48:27.104 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% clearly what you were trying to say with this film about 48:27.104 --> 48:29.506 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% American isolationism. 48:30.707 --> 48:32.976 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I'm not sure we were trying Julia 48:32.976 --> 48:35.913 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to say something in the idea of advocating 48:35.913 --> 48:38.682 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for a certain political point of view. 48:38.682 --> 48:41.652 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm troubled by it because I think in storytelling, 48:41.652 --> 48:44.554 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you receive everything new again. 48:44.554 --> 48:46.623 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And you begin to realize that 48:46.623 --> 48:48.558 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Charles Lindbergh is imprisoned 48:48.558 --> 48:51.061 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% by the eugenics ideal, 48:51.061 --> 48:54.431 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that there is some fundamental distinction 48:54.431 --> 48:57.200 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that he wishes to make about the white race 48:57.200 --> 49:00.437 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and its superiority and everything else 49:00.437 --> 49:03.540 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is subservient to that. 49:03.540 --> 49:08.545 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And he will serve that and to its most absurd 49:09.880 --> 49:12.849 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and dangerous and consequential conclusions. 49:12.849 --> 49:14.484 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% And I think 49:16.153 --> 49:19.122 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is no accident that he will later 49:19.122 --> 49:20.824 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% become the chief spokesman, 49:20.824 --> 49:22.359 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% one of the largest anti-war, 49:22.359 --> 49:24.561 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% there's nothing wrong in being anti-war, 49:24.561 --> 49:27.864 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a movements in American history called the America first. 49:30.300 --> 49:32.302 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Just as an America first movement 49:32.302 --> 49:37.274 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has restarted with similar kinds of things. 49:37.274 --> 49:41.812 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And with similar baggage and the baggage of Lindbergh 49:41.812 --> 49:45.382 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% was this idea that Jews were at the heart 49:45.382 --> 49:49.119 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% of the manipulation of the Roosevelt administration, 49:49.119 --> 49:50.887 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% of the American media. 49:50.887 --> 49:55.892 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this attempt to draw us into a war in support 49:56.760 --> 49:58.795 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of Britain when he, you know, 49:58.795 --> 50:02.666 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% had such admiration for the Germans and, 50:02.666 --> 50:05.435 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% you know he will do this, 50:05.435 --> 50:08.405 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% for months and months and months 50:08.405 --> 50:10.574 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and have many people beside him. 50:10.574 --> 50:12.042 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It's interesting though, 50:12.042 --> 50:16.446 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% we live in an age where there seems to be shamelessness. 50:16.446 --> 50:19.850 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It's impossible now to say something that that 50:19.850 --> 50:23.920 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% is possible to arouse an opinion that will shame 50:23.920 --> 50:28.925 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the person as perhaps McCarthy was by the lawyer for 50:30.761 --> 50:33.764 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the army in the McCarthy hearings. 50:33.764 --> 50:38.368 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And by the fact that at a speech in Des Moines, Iowa 50:39.836 --> 50:43.273 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Lindbergh goes too far in his virent antisemitism 50:43.273 --> 50:47.177 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and there is uniform left and right, you know, 50:47.177 --> 50:49.246 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% condemnation of him. 50:49.246 --> 50:51.415 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And very shortly thereafter, 50:51.415 --> 50:54.084 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the United States is drawn into the second world war. 50:54.084 --> 50:55.819 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% One of the great gifts, of course, 50:55.819 --> 50:57.888 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for Franklin Roosevelt was Pearl Harbor. 50:57.888 --> 51:00.924 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And the even greater gift was a few days later 51:00.924 --> 51:03.727 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% when Nazi, Germany declared war in the United States, 51:03.727 --> 51:06.897 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because everything that he knew had to happen could now 51:06.897 --> 51:09.599 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% happen and Lindbergh disappears into 51:09.599 --> 51:13.170 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the woodwork is desperate to get a military commission to 51:13.170 --> 51:17.074 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% defend the United States and Franklin Roosevelt, 51:17.074 --> 51:19.709 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% because he told his friend that is determined 51:19.709 --> 51:21.711 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% for him not to have that commission. 51:21.711 --> 51:23.013 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And he does not have it. 51:23.013 --> 51:24.815 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% It is one of the, you know, 51:24.815 --> 51:27.918 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it's a victory for the good guys in this regard, 51:27.918 --> 51:32.823 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but the closeness that we come to this peril 51:32.823 --> 51:34.624 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and we see it all the time now, 51:34.624 --> 51:37.627 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and there's no guarantee that the game is gonna come out 51:37.627 --> 51:40.263 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with the same score as Mike has been saying. 51:40.263 --> 51:43.467 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Well, I don't, I just wanna be clarify real quick. 51:43.467 --> 51:46.736 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% There is nothing wrong with being against war 51:46.736 --> 51:47.871 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% and I'm against- 51:47.871 --> 51:49.039 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Not at all. 51:49.039 --> 51:50.574 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Right. 51:50.574 --> 51:52.642 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But what I mean is the way it's portrayed in this film 51:52.642 --> 51:55.178 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% is that it's a bit of a, 51:55.178 --> 51:58.181 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% a hardhearted isolationism that you're seeing in the, 51:58.181 --> 51:59.783 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% not just in Lindbergh, 51:59.783 --> 52:01.518 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but in the American population that 52:01.518 --> 52:03.887 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% why should we save these people? 52:03.887 --> 52:04.821 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% We don't like them. 52:04.821 --> 52:06.690 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We don't wanna take them. 52:06.690 --> 52:08.692 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the Germans are saying, look, 52:08.692 --> 52:11.061 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you don't want them either. That's what we're saying. 52:11.061 --> 52:11.895 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Nobody wants them. 52:11.895 --> 52:13.130 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So why don't we 52:13.130 --> 52:13.964 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% (beep) 52:13.964 --> 52:15.232 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Sorry. 52:15.232 --> 52:15.799 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Why don't we deal with these people? 52:15.799 --> 52:16.633 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Right? 52:16.633 --> 52:17.701 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% So, sorry. 52:17.701 --> 52:19.102 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% Right. 52:19.102 --> 52:21.705 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there's a hardheartedness to this isolationism. 52:21.705 --> 52:23.540 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - I think there's two. 52:23.540 --> 52:24.674 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% I think Mike is gonna jump in, 52:24.674 --> 52:26.443 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but there's not wanting to fight the war 52:26.443 --> 52:28.411 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and there's not wanting to let refugees in, 52:28.411 --> 52:29.880 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and they're not quite this. 52:29.880 --> 52:32.115 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% They come from similar in different places. 52:32.115 --> 52:33.783 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% So I think we might wanna 52:33.783 --> 52:38.788 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% unpack that a little bit because the resistance 52:40.157 --> 52:42.125 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to letting refugees in there was no refugee policy. 52:42.125 --> 52:46.129 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So there was just an immigration quota system and, you know, 52:46.129 --> 52:47.364 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% that was it. 52:47.364 --> 52:48.565 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And there was really no getting around it. 52:48.565 --> 52:51.668 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And the ways that that was not modified 52:51.668 --> 52:55.572 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to address the crisis is not- 52:55.572 --> 52:56.673 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Isolationism is part of it, 52:56.673 --> 52:58.175 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but it's not the only, 52:58.175 --> 52:59.242 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% there's other issues there. 52:59.242 --> 53:00.677 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% But, you know, 53:00.677 --> 53:02.312 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I'm really drawn to what Michael said at the beginning 53:02.312 --> 53:07.317 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% about how, you know, if democracy is destroyed overseas, 53:08.051 --> 53:09.653 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that can blow back here. 53:09.653 --> 53:12.355 align:left position:20% line:77% size:70% And if democracy here is threatened to blows overseas too. 53:12.355 --> 53:13.623 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And so I just would love 53:13.623 --> 53:15.525 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to hear what Michael has to say about that. 53:15.525 --> 53:17.060 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - Well, thank Lynn. 53:17.060 --> 53:18.828 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I think the point about isolationism, 53:18.828 --> 53:20.964 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which I think is actually captured by a great quote from 53:20.964 --> 53:24.167 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Deborah Lipsett in the movie is it was incredibly naive 53:24.167 --> 53:26.303 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% about the nature of Hitler 53:26.303 --> 53:30.140 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and also the threat that having an entirely 53:30.140 --> 53:35.145 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% dictatorial continent, essentially in A, 53:36.346 --> 53:37.881 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% in Europe that would opposed to America. 53:37.881 --> 53:39.282 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And this is an important history, 53:39.282 --> 53:40.417 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% especially to freedom house. 53:40.417 --> 53:42.285 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We're a pro-democracy organization. 53:42.285 --> 53:44.454 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We were founded during this period 53:44.454 --> 53:46.289 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% because a number of important people, 53:46.289 --> 53:48.425 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% including several that made a cameo appearances 53:48.425 --> 53:51.995 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% in this movie, Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Wilke, 53:51.995 --> 53:54.764 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% who ran against Eleanor's husband in 1940, 53:54.764 --> 53:57.934 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% also the brilliant journalist, Dorothy Thompson, 53:57.934 --> 54:01.338 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% they recognized about the threat 54:01.338 --> 54:03.640 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that was over there in Nazi, Germany. 54:03.640 --> 54:06.610 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they knew that if it was not confronted 54:06.610 --> 54:09.312 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that America would pay a heavy price. 54:09.312 --> 54:11.448 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Roosevelt, I think knew that, 54:11.448 --> 54:14.351 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but he was constrained by politics. 54:14.351 --> 54:17.954 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it really was really only after Pearl Harbor, 54:17.954 --> 54:19.723 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that he could really marshal the army 54:19.723 --> 54:22.592 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% that was gonna be necessary to defeat the Nazis. 54:22.592 --> 54:24.894 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But one point about isolationism, 54:24.894 --> 54:27.397 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% the Lindbergh clip really points 54:27.397 --> 54:29.966 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the antisemitic parts of things, 54:29.966 --> 54:31.034 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but there were other reasons 54:31.034 --> 54:32.569 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% for the isolationism . 54:32.569 --> 54:34.804 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Roosevelt took office in the greatest 54:34.804 --> 54:36.640 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% economic calamity facing. 54:36.640 --> 54:38.975 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% If he had like turned to dealing with what was happening 54:38.975 --> 54:40.877 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% in Nazi Germany, 54:40.877 --> 54:43.079 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% he would've been thrown out of office 54:43.079 --> 54:45.282 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and also America was deeply influenced 54:45.282 --> 54:48.918 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% by what had happened in world war I, 54:48.918 --> 54:53.356 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and that had been a terrible, terribly violent affair. 54:53.356 --> 54:54.624 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And just think again today, 54:54.624 --> 54:56.359 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the influence of things like Afghanistan 54:56.359 --> 54:58.228 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and Iraq on public opinion. 54:58.228 --> 55:00.430 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% So it's more complicated than just antisemitism, 55:00.430 --> 55:02.299 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but that played a major part, 55:02.299 --> 55:04.668 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% particularly in not allowing Jewish refugees 55:04.668 --> 55:06.670 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to come through the United States. 55:06.670 --> 55:08.738 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - So to the point about Jewish refugees, 55:08.738 --> 55:11.741 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I thought it was fascinating that the 55:11.741 --> 55:15.612 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% film started actually not with Hitler, not with FDR, 55:15.612 --> 55:18.548 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% not even with one of the survivors you interviewed, 55:18.548 --> 55:19.749 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% but with Anne Frank. 55:19.749 --> 55:21.685 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And what I didn't know about Anne Frank 55:21.685 --> 55:26.156 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% was that her father had actually applied for US visa. 55:26.156 --> 55:27.624 align:left position:40% line:89% size:50% - Yes. 55:27.624 --> 55:30.627 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% - Many years before his daughters and his wife died 55:30.627 --> 55:32.595 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% in a Nazi concentration camp. 55:32.595 --> 55:35.432 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And as we know, obviously they were not successful. 55:35.432 --> 55:39.803 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And hundreds of thousands of other European Jews 55:39.803 --> 55:41.271 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% were not successful. 55:41.271 --> 55:45.408 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And this gets back again to institutions and systems 55:45.408 --> 55:48.478 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and how they kind of keep a certain status quo in place. 55:48.478 --> 55:50.480 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They kept slavery in place. 55:50.480 --> 55:52.916 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% They kept this system in place. 55:55.318 --> 55:56.820 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% I just... 55:56.820 --> 56:01.024 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I thought that was incredibly interesting that this aspect 56:01.024 --> 56:02.492 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% that even Anne Frank, 56:02.492 --> 56:06.096 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the Anne Frank story kind of tied in to the US. 56:06.096 --> 56:08.198 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - Well, I think that, that's the thing 56:08.198 --> 56:10.166 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that's different about it. 56:10.166 --> 56:12.836 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% There's been new information that's emerged that have 56:12.836 --> 56:16.239 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% detailed the extent to which Otto Frank, Anne's father 56:16.239 --> 56:18.908 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% had tried to get to the United States. 56:18.908 --> 56:22.178 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And so here you take a very familiar trope of the Holocaust 56:22.178 --> 56:24.447 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% story, which is Anne Frank's diary. 56:24.447 --> 56:27.550 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It is often the point of entry for many people, 56:27.550 --> 56:30.387 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% particularly students today is through that, 56:30.387 --> 56:32.822 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that book and her diary, remarkable diary. 56:32.822 --> 56:35.692 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% But again, in America's sense of, 56:35.692 --> 56:37.227 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% well we didn't really know what was going on. 56:37.227 --> 56:40.330 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We, you know, Anne Frank is, is over there, 56:40.330 --> 56:41.998 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but we're saying, no, no, no. 56:41.998 --> 56:43.833 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% She could be living here today. 56:43.833 --> 56:46.169 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% We don't wanna be, as Lynn says, 56:46.169 --> 56:48.271 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% counterfactual about this, but you know, 56:48.271 --> 56:51.674 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% he had Otto Frank had everything going for him. 56:51.674 --> 56:54.244 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He had means he had dotted every I, 56:54.244 --> 56:55.512 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% he'd crossed every T. 56:55.512 --> 56:57.080 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% He had contacts in the United States, 56:57.080 --> 57:00.950 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% well to do context and those well to do people had contacts 57:00.950 --> 57:02.652 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% within the Roosevelt administration. 57:02.652 --> 57:05.655 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And because of this, 57:05.655 --> 57:10.660 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% you know, implacable state department filled in places 57:11.861 --> 57:13.663 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% with anti-Semites or people who certainly 57:13.663 --> 57:16.466 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% didn't want anybody coming into the country or refugees 57:16.466 --> 57:17.934 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% coming into the country, 57:17.934 --> 57:20.670 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they slow walked this thing, they changed the rules, 57:20.670 --> 57:22.172 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% they raised the bar, 57:22.172 --> 57:24.274 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% they moved the goalpost and people were not allowed in 57:24.274 --> 57:28.044 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% including the Franks until their application with 300,000 57:28.044 --> 57:32.415 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% others burned up when the Germans bombed Rotterdam 57:32.415 --> 57:36.319 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and the American consulate went up in flames and, 57:36.319 --> 57:38.755 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% they weren't allowed to get here. 57:38.755 --> 57:41.090 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we know the rest of the story, 57:41.090 --> 57:44.160 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but I think it's interesting to see that there was a 57:44.160 --> 57:46.996 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% possibility they fit perfectly within the quota system. 57:46.996 --> 57:49.799 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They had done everything that they were supposed to do, 57:49.799 --> 57:52.101 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and they were still unable to come. 57:52.101 --> 57:54.737 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And it seems to me that that at the heart 57:54.737 --> 57:58.107 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of this story is the story of refugees. 57:58.107 --> 58:00.944 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% That is to say what's happening today. 58:00.944 --> 58:05.782 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And I mean, today, when last, yesterday, 58:05.782 --> 58:10.787 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% the authoritarian in practice in short pants in Florida 58:12.155 --> 58:16.359 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% sends Venezuelan refugees to Martha's vineyard 58:17.227 --> 58:19.729 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to sort of own the Dems to just, 58:19.729 --> 58:24.133 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to make them playing politics in this cruel cynical 58:24.133 --> 58:29.138 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% completely un-Christian, which he claims to be gesture. 58:29.138 --> 58:32.342 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And in fact, it backfires, right? 58:32.342 --> 58:36.179 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Because not only do the people of Massachusetts reach out 58:36.179 --> 58:37.580 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% to Martha's vineyard, 58:37.580 --> 58:40.149 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% reach out to try to support these refugees. 58:40.149 --> 58:42.952 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But in fact, we've learned over the course of today 58:42.952 --> 58:45.221 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the white citizens councils 58:45.221 --> 58:47.624 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of many of the Southern cities, 58:47.624 --> 58:50.093 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% people who are members of the Ku Klux Klan, 58:50.093 --> 58:53.396 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% or certainly support the Ku Klux Klan used to send black 58:53.396 --> 58:57.834 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Americans by bus north many, many times in a way 58:57.834 --> 59:02.138 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of kind of taunting that and using human beings 59:02.138 --> 59:04.707 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% as sort of political fodder. 59:04.707 --> 59:08.211 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And it is that shamelessness repeats itself throughout 59:08.211 --> 59:09.512 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% our histories. 59:09.512 --> 59:11.915 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% And it's just, you know, it's, 59:11.915 --> 59:14.751 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% it requires just this eternal vigilance 59:14.751 --> 59:19.756 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and really time to call these things for what they are. 59:20.857 --> 59:22.492 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% - You know, one point if I made Julia 59:22.492 --> 59:24.928 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% that the movie while it's dark 59:25.929 --> 59:27.830 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% has points of light in there. 59:27.830 --> 59:29.832 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I mean, to me, some of the most moving 59:29.832 --> 59:31.801 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% parts of the movie were the stories 59:31.801 --> 59:36.272 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% it told of Americans who stood up in the face of this 59:36.272 --> 59:39.375 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% antisemitism and the face of this kind of apathy about what 59:39.375 --> 59:40.577 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% was happening. 59:40.577 --> 59:42.478 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And they went to Europe to try to save Jews. 59:42.478 --> 59:47.483 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Very fry rescued several thousand Jews from France, 59:48.217 --> 59:49.385 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% the war refugee board, 59:49.385 --> 59:51.854 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% which is really an untold story outside of 59:51.854 --> 59:53.089 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% few holicast you know, 59:53.089 --> 59:54.357 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% was created and, 59:54.357 --> 59:56.593 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% and helped send Raoul Wallenberg to Hungary 59:56.593 --> 59:58.828 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to save tens of thousands of Jews. 59:58.828 --> 01:00:02.899 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% So it's an important reminder that we have a capacity, 01:00:02.899 --> 01:00:06.936 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% we have agency to fight these trends. 01:00:06.936 --> 01:00:09.305 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there were Americans who stood up and they should be 01:00:09.305 --> 01:00:12.108 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% celebrated and their story should be remembered. 01:00:12.108 --> 01:00:14.043 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And we should be inspired by them. 01:00:15.011 --> 01:00:16.279 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Absolutely. 01:00:16.279 --> 01:00:18.848 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I just wanted to say, I know we have to end, 01:00:18.848 --> 01:00:22.385 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% but I wanted to mention, I thought it was, 01:00:22.385 --> 01:00:26.155 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% I was really touched to ask to moderate this panel because 01:00:26.155 --> 01:00:28.825 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I'm a huge fan of Ken and Lynn's work. 01:00:28.825 --> 01:00:33.830 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But, you know, as a Soviet Jewish refugee myself, 01:00:35.264 --> 01:00:38.635 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as Gall Beckerman laid out in his incredible book, 01:00:38.635 --> 01:00:41.237 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% when they come for us we'll be gone. 01:00:41.237 --> 01:00:44.641 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% A lot of the movement to free Soviet jewelry, 01:00:44.641 --> 01:00:49.612 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% which was run out of the US was motivated by America's Jews 01:00:51.014 --> 01:00:53.883 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and American's sense of guilt that they had abandoned 01:00:53.883 --> 01:00:56.686 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% European jewelry to their fate in world war II. 01:00:56.686 --> 01:00:59.422 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And there was a sense that we shouldn't let this happen 01:00:59.422 --> 01:01:03.826 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% to the Jews that were left in Eastern Europe. 01:01:03.826 --> 01:01:07.263 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% And so my family and I are direct beneficiaries 01:01:07.263 --> 01:01:09.699 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% of the lessons that were learned 01:01:09.699 --> 01:01:13.036 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% by the Jewish community and by Americans that story. 01:01:13.036 --> 01:01:15.638 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% But ironically on my, 01:01:15.638 --> 01:01:19.075 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% as I got off my flight today, I'm in LA right now, 01:01:19.075 --> 01:01:21.110 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% I ran into Nury Turkel, 01:01:21.110 --> 01:01:25.815 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who's a writer and an a Uighur activist 01:01:25.815 --> 01:01:28.418 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% who was arriving in LA to receive an award 01:01:28.418 --> 01:01:31.087 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% from a Jewish organization for his work, 01:01:31.087 --> 01:01:34.424 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% documenting the Uighur genocide in China. 01:01:34.424 --> 01:01:37.326 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And here's a another, 01:01:37.326 --> 01:01:41.664 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and his book parallels the kind of the comparisons between 01:01:41.664 --> 01:01:44.467 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% the Holocaust and the legal genocide. 01:01:44.467 --> 01:01:47.336 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% And, you know, and then here you have this other example 01:01:47.336 --> 01:01:50.540 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% of the world, kind of not doing all that much 01:01:50.540 --> 01:01:53.176 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% with this other genocide 01:01:53.176 --> 01:01:54.644 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% unfolding in front of us. 01:01:54.644 --> 01:01:55.845 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% And then the Rohija, 01:01:57.046 --> 01:01:57.847 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% genocide unfolding, 01:01:58.781 --> 01:01:59.582 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and us not doing all that much. 01:02:00.717 --> 01:02:01.918 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% I know Michael, your former employer 01:02:01.918 --> 01:02:03.619 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% has done a lot of work on other genocides 01:02:03.619 --> 01:02:06.756 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% that don't involve Jews all over the world, 01:02:06.756 --> 01:02:08.858 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% but it just made me think of 01:02:08.858 --> 01:02:12.228 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% how we have in some ways learned our lesson. 01:02:12.228 --> 01:02:15.298 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% But in some ways we just keep repeating the same mistakes. 01:02:15.298 --> 01:02:17.333 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% We just let, we're like, well, the rules, 01:02:17.333 --> 01:02:19.068 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% well, you have to get line, well, 01:02:19.068 --> 01:02:21.003 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% you have to fill out this paperwork. 01:02:21.003 --> 01:02:22.105 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Well, we don't have the laws. 01:02:22.105 --> 01:02:23.106 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% Well, Congress, 01:02:23.106 --> 01:02:24.340 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% well, what can we do? 01:02:25.742 --> 01:02:29.312 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% It was kind of sad to see all of that, 01:02:29.312 --> 01:02:32.081 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% to run into Nuri and to see, 01:02:32.081 --> 01:02:35.718 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% to remember that all this is still playing out, even today. 01:02:36.953 --> 01:02:39.155 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% - We're happy that you're here 01:02:39.155 --> 01:02:44.026 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% and a voice of reason and sanity in the midst of this. 01:02:44.994 --> 01:02:45.995 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% - [Julia] Thank you. 01:02:47.196 --> 01:02:50.433 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% Well, thank you for an incredible film. 01:02:50.433 --> 01:02:52.168 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% One of many that you've made, 01:02:52.168 --> 01:02:56.472 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% but this one really just was really stunning and incredibly, 01:02:56.472 --> 01:02:59.041 align:left position:20% line:83% size:70% just incredibly important and urgent. 01:02:59.041 --> 01:03:01.978 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you so much for making it and for rushing it out 01:03:01.978 --> 01:03:03.579 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% and sharing it with the world. 01:03:03.579 --> 01:03:06.382 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you for inviting me to moderate this panel. 01:03:06.382 --> 01:03:07.850 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It was really an honor. 01:03:07.850 --> 01:03:12.355 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% Thank you to everyone who tuned in and seriously 01:03:12.355 --> 01:03:13.890 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% do not miss this film. 01:03:13.890 --> 01:03:15.324 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It is three episodes. 01:03:15.324 --> 01:03:17.660 align:left position:10% line:83% size:80% They're all worth watching every single minute. 01:03:17.660 --> 01:03:20.096 align:left position:10% line:89% size:80% Seer it all into your memories. 01:03:20.096 --> 01:03:21.097 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% It is incredible. 01:03:21.097 --> 01:03:22.598 align:left position:20% line:89% size:70% Thank you so much. 01:03:23.499 --> 01:03:24.333 align:left position:30% line:89% size:60% - Thank you.