WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:01.000 cc 00:01.000 --> 00:02.000 >> Kevin Check: Good afternoon 00:02.000 --> 00:03.000 and welcome to today's 00:03.000 --> 00:04.000 Global Hot Spots lecture. 00:04.000 --> 00:06.000 My name is Kevin Check. 00:06.000 --> 00:07.000 I'm Senior Director of School 00:07.000 --> 00:09.000 and College Relations at the 00:09.000 --> 00:11.000 Wisconsin Alumni Association. 00:11.000 --> 00:13.000 We're very pleased to continue 00:13.000 --> 00:14.000 to bring this great programming 00:14.000 --> 00:16.000 to you in partnership with the 00:16.000 --> 00:18.000 Division of International 00:18.000 --> 00:19.000 Studies and PLATO 00:19.000 --> 00:21.000 and Continuing Studies. 00:21.000 --> 00:22.000 Today we welcome as our speaker 00:22.000 --> 00:24.000 Jeremy Weber who graciously 00:24.000 --> 00:26.000 agreed to step in for our 00:26.000 --> 00:27.000 originally scheduled speaker, 00:27.000 --> 00:29.000 Brad Barham, a professor of Ag 00:29.000 --> 00:31.000 and Applied Economics who 00:31.000 --> 00:32.000 happens to be starting a new 00:32.000 --> 00:34.000 project in Bolivia. 00:34.000 --> 00:35.000 And Jeremy tells me that he was 00:35.000 --> 00:36.000 communicating with him 00:36.000 --> 00:39.000 this morning in Bolivia. 00:39.000 --> 00:41.000 Jeremy is a PhD candidate 00:41.000 --> 00:42.000 in the Agricultural and 00:42.000 --> 00:43.000 Applied Economics Department 00:43.000 --> 00:45.000 here at UW Madison. 00:45.000 --> 00:47.000 His research covers development 00:47.000 --> 00:49.000 and conservation themes and has 00:49.000 --> 00:50.000 involved projects in Mexico, 00:50.000 --> 00:52.000 Brazil and Peru. 00:52.000 --> 00:54.000 He began studying fair trade 00:54.000 --> 00:56.000 organic coffee arrangements with 00:56.000 --> 00:58.000 a Fulbright grant in Peru in 00:58.000 --> 01:00.000 2005, and has since continued to 01:00.000 --> 01:02.000 explore economics issues 01:02.000 --> 01:03.000 surrounding coffee growing 01:03.000 --> 01:05.000 households. 01:05.000 --> 01:07.000 His dissertation studies the 01:07.000 --> 01:08.000 uneven diffusion of an 01:08.000 --> 01:10.000 innovative pruning practice 01:10.000 --> 01:11.000 among coffee growers in central 01:11.000 --> 01:13.000 Peru. 01:13.000 --> 01:14.000 Please join me in welcoming 01:14.000 --> 01:15.000 Jeremy Weber as he presents 01:15.000 --> 01:17.000 "Is Organic Fair Trade 01:17.000 --> 01:18.000 Agriculture Sustainable? 01:18.000 --> 01:19.000 Observations of Coffee Growing 01:19.000 --> 01:22.000 in Mexico and Peru." 01:22.000 --> 01:25.000 (applause) 01:30.000 --> 01:31.000 >> Jeremy Weber: Thank you, 01:31.000 --> 01:32.000 Kevin, and thank you all 01:32.000 --> 01:34.000 for coming out. 01:34.000 --> 01:36.000 What I'm going to present draws 01:36.000 --> 01:38.000 on several different projects 01:38.000 --> 01:40.000 that have involved a number of 01:40.000 --> 01:42.000 people. 01:42.000 --> 01:44.000 And those projects have been 01:44.000 --> 01:46.000 more narrowly focused. 01:46.000 --> 01:48.000 Brad and I and some others have 01:48.000 --> 01:50.000 looked at schooling outcomes in 01:50.000 --> 01:52.000 coffee growing households in 01:52.000 --> 01:53.000 southern Mexico. 01:53.000 --> 01:55.000 I'm looking at technology in 01:55.000 --> 01:56.000 Peru. 01:56.000 --> 01:58.000 But Brad's a big picture guy, 01:58.000 --> 02:00.000 and he said why don't we take 02:00.000 --> 02:03.000 this opportunity to take a step 02:03.000 --> 02:05.000 back from our narrow focus and 02:05.000 --> 02:06.000 look at some of the broader 02:06.000 --> 02:07.000 themes, some of the comparative 02:07.000 --> 02:09.000 differences between the areas 02:09.000 --> 02:11.000 that we're working and try to 02:11.000 --> 02:13.000 draw some conclusions and 02:13.000 --> 02:15.000 comment on those differences. 02:15.000 --> 02:16.000 So that's the fruit of this 02:16.000 --> 02:20.000 lecture. 02:20.000 --> 02:24.000 The topic of economic scarcity 02:24.000 --> 02:28.000 and economic growth and its 02:28.000 --> 02:30.000 relationship to the environment 02:30.000 --> 02:33.000 is certainly a relevant one 02:33.000 --> 02:35.000 today and that's, I think, 02:35.000 --> 02:37.000 brought out by this quote that 02:37.000 --> 02:38.000 Bill Gates made a couple weeks 02:38.000 --> 02:41.000 ago at the World Food Symposium. 02:41.000 --> 02:43.000 He says, "Environmentalists are 02:43.000 --> 02:44.000 standing in the way of feeding 02:44.000 --> 02:46.000 humanity through their 02:46.000 --> 02:48.000 opposition to biotechnology, 02:48.000 --> 02:49.000 farm chemicals and nitrogen 02:49.000 --> 02:52.000 fertilizer." 02:52.000 --> 02:54.000 I think what this quote really 02:54.000 --> 02:58.000 says or what it shows is the 02:58.000 --> 03:00.000 status of the debate surrounding 03:00.000 --> 03:03.000 economics and the environment. 03:03.000 --> 03:05.000 And I think that the structure 03:05.000 --> 03:07.000 of that debate is one where you 03:07.000 --> 03:10.000 have two poles, one where people 03:10.000 --> 03:13.000 have significant faith in the 03:13.000 --> 03:15.000 ability of technology to resolve 03:15.000 --> 03:18.000 problems of scarcity and also 03:18.000 --> 03:19.000 environmental problems as they 03:19.000 --> 03:22.000 may arise, and then at the other 03:22.000 --> 03:25.000 pole, a group of people that are 03:25.000 --> 03:28.000 very wary of technology and are 03:28.000 --> 03:30.000 environmental purists in 03:30.000 --> 03:32.000 thinking that there's really 03:32.000 --> 03:34.000 only one platform or one way of 03:34.000 --> 03:35.000 producing that's compatible with 03:35.000 --> 03:38.000 environmental sustainability. 03:38.000 --> 03:41.000 And what I'm going to talk about 03:41.000 --> 03:42.000 today and the information that 03:42.000 --> 03:44.000 I'm going to bring to bare on 03:44.000 --> 03:46.000 this argument I think presents a 03:46.000 --> 03:48.000 much more nuanced perspective 03:48.000 --> 03:51.000 and says both of those camps 03:51.000 --> 03:52.000 probably don't have it quite 03:52.000 --> 03:56.000 right and that the details of 03:56.000 --> 03:58.000 these problems that we're 03:58.000 --> 04:02.000 talking about are going to show 04:02.000 --> 04:04.000 why those two ways probably 04:04.000 --> 04:05.000 are not a good way of thinking 04:05.000 --> 04:09.000 about this problem. 04:09.000 --> 04:11.000 Coffee is a great product to 04:11.000 --> 04:13.000 look at when thinking about 04:13.000 --> 04:15.000 issues of the environment and 04:15.000 --> 04:18.000 issues of economics and welfare 04:18.000 --> 04:20.000 and livelihoods. 04:20.000 --> 04:23.000 Latin America, in particular, 04:23.000 --> 04:24.000 has many households, rural 04:24.000 --> 04:26.000 households, that depend upon 04:26.000 --> 04:27.000 growing coffee for their 04:27.000 --> 04:30.000 livelihoods. 04:30.000 --> 04:31.000 And those coffee farms are 04:31.000 --> 04:34.000 located in areas that often are 04:34.000 --> 04:36.000 biodiversity hot spots. 04:36.000 --> 04:38.000 Think of cloud forests, think of 04:38.000 --> 04:41.000 this is the transition zone from 04:41.000 --> 04:43.000 the highlands of the Andes 04:43.000 --> 04:45.000 Mountains into the lowland 04:45.000 --> 04:48.000 tropical area. 04:48.000 --> 04:50.000 In between is this area called, 04:50.000 --> 04:52.000 in some regions, the brow of the 04:52.000 --> 04:54.000 jungle. 04:54.000 --> 04:56.000 This is elevations about 1,000 04:56.000 --> 04:58.000 to 2,000-meters above sea level. 04:58.000 --> 05:00.000 Because slight changes in 05:00.000 --> 05:03.000 elevations are associated with 05:03.000 --> 05:05.000 different microclimates, 05:05.000 --> 05:07.000 different plants and animals. 05:07.000 --> 05:08.000 And this is where coffee is 05:08.000 --> 05:11.000 being grown. 05:11.000 --> 05:13.000 I'm going to start out focusing 05:13.000 --> 05:14.000 on Peru and looking at two 05:14.000 --> 05:16.000 different platforms for growing 05:16.000 --> 05:18.000 coffee both of which have 05:18.000 --> 05:19.000 environmental concerns 05:19.000 --> 05:22.000 integrated into them. 05:22.000 --> 05:23.000 And this is going to be a 05:23.000 --> 05:25.000 broader picture of two different 05:25.000 --> 05:28.000 approaches to growing 05:28.000 --> 05:30.000 sustainable coffee, and then I'm 05:30.000 --> 05:31.000 going to focus in on the 05:31.000 --> 05:33.000 economic side of it. 05:33.000 --> 05:36.000 That is, the economics driving 05:36.000 --> 05:38.000 the livelihoods that households 05:38.000 --> 05:42.000 are able to earn by growing 05:42.000 --> 05:44.000 coffee and I'm going to first 05:44.000 --> 05:46.000 look at southern Mexico and, in 05:46.000 --> 05:47.000 particular, fair trade and 05:47.000 --> 05:50.000 organic growers there, 05:50.000 --> 05:53.000 and then go back into Peru. 05:58.000 --> 06:00.000 The organic certification, and 06:00.000 --> 06:01.000 here I'm just going to focus in 06:01.000 --> 06:06.000 on organic and not fair trade, 06:06.000 --> 06:08.000 but the organic certification is 06:08.000 --> 06:10.000 one where I think many consumers 06:10.000 --> 06:12.000 associate it with, if you want 06:12.000 --> 06:13.000 to be environmentally 06:13.000 --> 06:16.000 responsible, you buy a product 06:16.000 --> 06:18.000 that has an organic label. 06:18.000 --> 06:20.000 Other things are maybe not going 06:20.000 --> 06:22.000 to get the job done. 06:22.000 --> 06:23.000 There's a lot of faith placed on 06:23.000 --> 06:25.000 organic being the best way to 06:25.000 --> 06:27.000 maintain the integrity of the 06:27.000 --> 06:30.000 ecosystems where the product is 06:30.000 --> 06:33.000 being produced. 06:33.000 --> 06:34.000 But there are a number of 06:34.000 --> 06:35.000 competing certifications out 06:35.000 --> 06:37.000 there, especially in the case of 06:37.000 --> 06:39.000 coffee, and some of these 06:39.000 --> 06:41.000 certification may be 06:41.000 --> 06:43.000 complementary to each other and 06:43.000 --> 06:44.000 others may be competing in a 06:44.000 --> 06:45.000 sense that they're offering a 06:45.000 --> 06:47.000 different way, a different set 06:47.000 --> 06:49.000 of standards to ensure the same 06:49.000 --> 06:53.000 outcomes. 06:53.000 --> 06:55.000 So we have the fair trade 06:55.000 --> 06:56.000 certification which is a little 06:56.000 --> 06:59.000 more socially oriented and 06:59.000 --> 07:00.000 that's paired recently with the 07:00.000 --> 07:03.000 organic and in the market now 07:03.000 --> 07:04.000 you see a lot of fair trade 07:04.000 --> 07:07.000 organic labeled coffee. 07:07.000 --> 07:08.000 But they are separate 07:08.000 --> 07:09.000 certifications with different 07:09.000 --> 07:12.000 standards and norms. 07:12.000 --> 07:13.000 But then we have the Rainforest 07:13.000 --> 07:15.000 Alliance is a group that has 07:15.000 --> 07:17.000 created the sustainable 07:17.000 --> 07:19.000 agricultural certification, and 07:19.000 --> 07:20.000 you can see this in your 07:20.000 --> 07:22.000 supermarkets oftentimes, 07:22.000 --> 07:24.000 especially in the coffee aisle, 07:24.000 --> 07:26.000 when a bag that has a label with 07:26.000 --> 07:27.000 a little green frog on the 07:27.000 --> 07:33.000 label. 07:33.000 --> 07:34.000 And then Utz Kapeh, which 07:34.000 --> 07:36.000 I think is good coffee in Mayan, 07:36.000 --> 07:38.000 is again another approach, 07:38.000 --> 07:39.000 another certification out there 07:39.000 --> 07:42.000 that says these norms are 07:42.000 --> 07:43.000 consistent with environmental 07:43.000 --> 07:44.000 sustainability. 07:44.000 --> 07:47.000 The Smithsonian Institute 07:47.000 --> 07:48.000 oversees a bird-friendly 07:48.000 --> 07:51.000 certification, and then there's 07:51.000 --> 07:53.000 an industry set of practices 07:53.000 --> 07:55.000 known as cafe practices that's 07:55.000 --> 07:56.000 another label that's thrown on 07:56.000 --> 07:57.000 coffee. 07:57.000 --> 07:59.000 So a natural question is are 07:59.000 --> 08:02.000 these labels all doing the same 08:02.000 --> 08:04.000 thing? 08:04.000 --> 08:06.000 Does organic, is that really the 08:06.000 --> 08:08.000 only way to go to maintain the 08:08.000 --> 08:10.000 integrity of ecosystems in 08:10.000 --> 08:14.000 coffee growing communities? 08:14.000 --> 08:16.000 To answer this question or to 08:16.000 --> 08:17.000 discuss it a little more 08:17.000 --> 08:19.000 thoroughly, I'm going to look at 08:19.000 --> 08:21.000 a case of certified growing in 08:21.000 --> 08:24.000 central Peru, we're in the 08:24.000 --> 08:25.000 department of Junin. 08:25.000 --> 08:26.000 "Department," maybe I should 08:26.000 --> 08:28.000 have translated that, 08:28.000 --> 08:30.000 and just put state. 08:30.000 --> 08:31.000 But department is equivalent 08:31.000 --> 08:32.000 to a state. 08:32.000 --> 08:34.000 So in the state of Junin. 08:34.000 --> 08:38.000 This is in central Peru. 08:38.000 --> 08:41.000 If you can see on the coast of 08:41.000 --> 08:44.000 Peru, here we've got this 08:44.000 --> 08:47.000 different colored, this 08:47.000 --> 08:49.000 geographic map here that shows 08:49.000 --> 08:51.000 the Andes Mountains and then 08:51.000 --> 08:53.000 coming down into the eastern 08:53.000 --> 08:55.000 side of the Andes Mountains in 08:55.000 --> 08:57.000 this lighter green area is where 08:57.000 --> 08:59.000 that brow of the jungle, that 08:59.000 --> 09:01.000 cloud forest area, and that's 09:01.000 --> 09:02.000 where most of coffee is produced 09:02.000 --> 09:04.000 in Peru. 09:04.000 --> 09:06.000 And this specific region of 09:06.000 --> 09:08.000 central Peru is the coffee 09:08.000 --> 09:11.000 growing region, the capital, the 09:11.000 --> 09:14.000 coffee capital of Peru. 09:14.000 --> 09:15.000 Coffee is also grown in the 09:15.000 --> 09:19.000 south coming down from Cusco, 09:19.000 --> 09:21.000 it's also grown in the north. 09:21.000 --> 09:23.000 But the industry is the best 09:23.000 --> 09:24.000 organized and the strongest and 09:24.000 --> 09:26.000 there's most production from 09:26.000 --> 09:27.000 central Peru and specifically 09:27.000 --> 09:30.000 this region. 09:30.000 --> 09:31.000 It's a beautiful region. 09:31.000 --> 09:33.000 In fact, Brad took this photo 09:33.000 --> 09:36.000 this summer as we were kind of 09:36.000 --> 09:38.000 wandering through the area 09:38.000 --> 09:39.000 visiting these different 09:39.000 --> 09:42.000 growers. 09:44.000 --> 09:46.000 In this area, two privates 09:46.000 --> 09:47.000 companies got together and 09:47.000 --> 09:49.000 decided to fund a coffee 09:49.000 --> 09:51.000 development project. 09:51.000 --> 09:53.000 The two companies were Lavazza, 09:53.000 --> 09:54.000 which is a large Italian 09:54.000 --> 09:56.000 roaster, and Volcafe, which is a 09:56.000 --> 09:58.000 coffee and trading company, and 09:58.000 --> 10:00.000 they had the goal of, a very 10:00.000 --> 10:01.000 broad goal, of improving the 10:01.000 --> 10:03.000 economic and environmental 10:03.000 --> 10:04.000 sustainability of these 10:04.000 --> 10:06.000 communities of small scale 10:06.000 --> 10:07.000 coffee growers in several 10:07.000 --> 10:12.000 communities in Junin. 10:12.000 --> 10:13.000 One of the components of the 10:13.000 --> 10:15.000 project focused on certifying 10:15.000 --> 10:17.000 growers and integrating them 10:17.000 --> 10:20.000 into markets, export markets, 10:20.000 --> 10:21.000 that would pay premiums for that 10:21.000 --> 10:24.000 certification. 10:24.000 --> 10:26.000 And the main certification that 10:26.000 --> 10:27.000 they've been working with is the 10:27.000 --> 10:28.000 Rainforest Alliance sustainable 10:28.000 --> 10:30.000 certification, but they've also 10:30.000 --> 10:32.000 worked with the organic norms 10:32.000 --> 10:35.000 and with Utz Kapeh, and so it 10:35.000 --> 10:37.000 provides a good case study of 10:37.000 --> 10:40.000 comparing these different 10:40.000 --> 10:44.000 platforms for growing coffee. 10:44.000 --> 10:46.000 Now when we go to compare these 10:46.000 --> 10:49.000 different certifications, 10:49.000 --> 10:51.000 it's a bit tricky because 10:51.000 --> 10:57.000 if you go, say, to the website 10:57.000 --> 11:01.000 of one organic certifier, 11:01.000 --> 11:03.000 there are several, 11:03.000 --> 11:05.000 many certifiers, 11:05.000 --> 11:06.000 and you look well what are the 11:06.000 --> 11:08.000 norms that I would have to abide 11:08.000 --> 11:10.000 by to be certified, and you 11:10.000 --> 11:12.000 would find a document that would 11:12.000 --> 11:15.000 look like something that a 11:15.000 --> 11:18.000 lawyer wrote for other lawyers. 11:18.000 --> 11:21.000 Very complicated language, 11:21.000 --> 11:24.000 large document, many pages, and 11:24.000 --> 11:27.000 growers don't read these 11:27.000 --> 11:29.000 documents when they go to enter 11:29.000 --> 11:32.000 certification programs. 11:32.000 --> 11:34.000 There are extension agents, 11:34.000 --> 11:36.000 either as part of a coffee 11:36.000 --> 11:39.000 cooperative or in this case an 11:39.000 --> 11:42.000 NGO, that try to translate these 11:42.000 --> 11:45.000 norms into activities that 11:45.000 --> 11:47.000 they're going to promote among 11:47.000 --> 11:49.000 farmers, and they're going to 11:49.000 --> 11:52.000 say after kind of reading this 11:52.000 --> 11:53.000 document and talking with this 11:53.000 --> 11:55.000 certifier these are basically 11:55.000 --> 11:56.000 the things that you need to do 11:56.000 --> 11:58.000 in order to receive this 11:58.000 --> 12:01.000 certification. 12:01.000 --> 12:02.000 And that's a little bit 12:02.000 --> 12:03.000 different from kind of taking 12:03.000 --> 12:05.000 the document and analyzing it 12:05.000 --> 12:07.000 from a legal perspective as 12:07.000 --> 12:09.000 could you get away with this or 12:09.000 --> 12:10.000 not. 12:10.000 --> 12:13.000 And this comparison is based on 12:13.000 --> 12:14.000 not going to the document but 12:14.000 --> 12:16.000 going to the extension agents 12:16.000 --> 12:18.000 who work with the growers and 12:18.000 --> 12:19.000 say what are the main 12:19.000 --> 12:21.000 differences when you're 12:21.000 --> 12:23.000 implementing the sustainable or 12:23.000 --> 12:27.000 organic program. 12:27.000 --> 12:28.000 I'll start first with the 12:28.000 --> 12:29.000 sustainable. 12:29.000 --> 12:31.000 The norms are very much applied 12:31.000 --> 12:34.000 to the entire property. 12:34.000 --> 12:35.000 So if you've only got coffee on 12:35.000 --> 12:38.000 a corner and on a far other 12:38.000 --> 12:39.000 corner you've got something else 12:39.000 --> 12:41.000 going on, it doesn't matter, all 12:41.000 --> 12:44.000 of that falls into the norms. 12:44.000 --> 12:47.000 And there is equal focus on all 12:47.000 --> 12:49.000 of those areas. 12:49.000 --> 12:51.000 It's not that we look at your 12:51.000 --> 12:53.000 coffee and we kind of pay 12:53.000 --> 12:54.000 attention to the rest, but not 12:54.000 --> 12:56.000 really. 12:56.000 --> 12:58.000 In the case of sustainable, it's 12:58.000 --> 12:59.000 very important, the entire 12:59.000 --> 13:02.000 property. 13:02.000 --> 13:05.000 No forbidden agrochemicals. 13:05.000 --> 13:06.000 So some agrochemicals are 13:06.000 --> 13:08.000 permitted. 13:08.000 --> 13:10.000 There's a green colored band of 13:10.000 --> 13:13.000 products that Rainforest had 13:13.000 --> 13:14.000 said that these, when used 13:14.000 --> 13:16.000 right, have no environmental 13:16.000 --> 13:20.000 negative effects. 13:20.000 --> 13:21.000 So of course a key word is used 13:21.000 --> 13:25.000 right, so there's significant 13:25.000 --> 13:27.000 standards that deal with how 13:27.000 --> 13:29.000 those chemicals are applied, 13:29.000 --> 13:31.000 where they're stored, do the 13:31.000 --> 13:32.000 people applying them know how to 13:32.000 --> 13:35.000 apply them. 13:35.000 --> 13:38.000 And then socially Rainforest 13:38.000 --> 13:41.000 is pretty robust. 13:41.000 --> 13:42.000 They want to make sure that the 13:42.000 --> 13:43.000 coffee growing household has a 13:43.000 --> 13:46.000 working latrine. 13:46.000 --> 13:47.000 They want to make sure that 13:47.000 --> 13:48.000 workers who come to work on that 13:48.000 --> 13:51.000 farm also have access to a 13:51.000 --> 13:55.000 latrine. 13:55.000 --> 13:57.000 For women in the household that 13:57.000 --> 13:59.000 are working in the kitchen also 13:59.000 --> 14:01.000 cooking over wood, there needs 14:01.000 --> 14:04.000 to be a chimney. 14:04.000 --> 14:05.000 There needs to be good 14:05.000 --> 14:07.000 ventilation within the kitchen 14:07.000 --> 14:09.000 so that the health of women is 14:09.000 --> 14:12.000 not being affected. 14:12.000 --> 14:14.000 Clean water, the household needs 14:14.000 --> 14:16.000 to be getting potable water 14:16.000 --> 14:20.000 into it. 14:20.000 --> 14:21.000 Workers, if they're hiring in 14:21.000 --> 14:23.000 workers, there needs to be wage 14:23.000 --> 14:25.000 policies and what to do if 14:25.000 --> 14:28.000 somebody gets sick. 14:28.000 --> 14:29.000 There needs to be a formal 14:29.000 --> 14:30.000 policy of what to do in 14:30.000 --> 14:33.000 different situations. 14:33.000 --> 14:36.000 Waste water is a big deal and 14:36.000 --> 14:39.000 improper treatment of it is a 14:39.000 --> 14:40.000 sure way to not get the 14:40.000 --> 14:42.000 certification. 14:42.000 --> 14:43.000 And that's waste water that's 14:43.000 --> 14:45.000 coming from processing coffee 14:45.000 --> 14:47.000 but also waste water that's 14:47.000 --> 14:50.000 coming from the house. 14:50.000 --> 14:52.000 Reforesting is a big issue. 14:52.000 --> 14:53.000 If coffee on one corner and on 14:53.000 --> 14:56.000 the far other corner, you've 14:56.000 --> 14:57.000 clear cut that a couple years 14:57.000 --> 14:59.000 ago and it's degraded, the 14:59.000 --> 15:01.000 certifier's going to say we need 15:01.000 --> 15:03.000 to come up with a reforestation 15:03.000 --> 15:05.000 plan to recuperate or recover 15:05.000 --> 15:09.000 that degraded area. 15:09.000 --> 15:11.000 And water sources, this is a big 15:11.000 --> 15:16.000 deal, as coffee growing 15:16.000 --> 15:17.000 households or coffee farms are 15:17.000 --> 15:19.000 oftentimes located in the higher 15:19.000 --> 15:22.000 reaches of watersheds, 15:22.000 --> 15:24.000 Rainforest certifiers pay much 15:24.000 --> 15:27.000 attention to nearby creeks and 15:27.000 --> 15:28.000 is there erosion that's 15:28.000 --> 15:31.000 happening, is there proper 15:31.000 --> 15:34.000 buffers to protect against 15:34.000 --> 15:37.000 kind of heavy rains, 15:37.000 --> 15:39.000 or anything like that. 15:39.000 --> 15:41.000 Now moving over to the organic 15:41.000 --> 15:43.000 side, and again right now 15:43.000 --> 15:44.000 I'm only talking about organic, 15:44.000 --> 15:46.000 not the joint organic fair trade 15:46.000 --> 15:48.000 arrangement that is common 15:48.000 --> 15:51.000 to see. 15:51.000 --> 15:54.000 The norms are primarily focused 15:54.000 --> 15:55.000 on the crop that's being 15:55.000 --> 15:56.000 certified. 15:56.000 --> 15:58.000 The other crops also fall into, 15:58.000 --> 16:00.000 the norms apply to the other 16:00.000 --> 16:03.000 crops. 16:03.000 --> 16:06.000 But it varies a bit. 16:06.000 --> 16:07.000 You can have a conventional 16:07.000 --> 16:09.000 field nearby and you have plans 16:09.000 --> 16:11.000 to eventually convert it to 16:11.000 --> 16:12.000 organic and that needs to be 16:12.000 --> 16:17.000 explicit, but the focus is on 16:17.000 --> 16:19.000 if we're going to certify your 16:19.000 --> 16:21.000 coffee this year, that this 16:21.000 --> 16:26.000 coffee is free of agrochemicals 16:26.000 --> 16:30.000 which is the second issue here. 16:30.000 --> 16:32.000 And then the third issue, and 16:32.000 --> 16:34.000 this is really, I think, a core 16:34.000 --> 16:35.000 aspect of the organic 16:35.000 --> 16:37.000 certification, and that is 16:37.000 --> 16:40.000 contamination of foreign 16:40.000 --> 16:42.000 materials either from other 16:42.000 --> 16:44.000 activities on the farm or from 16:44.000 --> 16:48.000 neighboring farms. 16:48.000 --> 16:50.000 There's a transition period 16:50.000 --> 16:52.000 between when I enter an organic 16:52.000 --> 16:53.000 program and when I can start 16:53.000 --> 16:55.000 selling my coffee as certified 16:55.000 --> 16:56.000 organic. 16:56.000 --> 16:59.000 Again this is dealing with the 16:59.000 --> 17:00.000 idea that if you've applied 17:00.000 --> 17:02.000 agrochemicals in the past, 17:02.000 --> 17:03.000 we want to give time for them 17:03.000 --> 17:07.000 to be processed through the soil 17:07.000 --> 17:09.000 and to disappear before we're 17:09.000 --> 17:10.000 going to allow you 17:10.000 --> 17:13.000 to sell your coffee as organic. 17:13.000 --> 17:14.000 Traceability is also a big 17:14.000 --> 17:16.000 issue. 17:16.000 --> 17:17.000 When the coffee leaves your 17:17.000 --> 17:20.000 field, where is it being stored 17:20.000 --> 17:22.000 when it's harvested, 17:22.000 --> 17:23.000 and on the farm. 17:23.000 --> 17:25.000 Is that a clean environment? 17:25.000 --> 17:27.000 When it goes to a processing 17:27.000 --> 17:29.000 plant, what treatment is it 17:29.000 --> 17:33.000 getting there? 17:33.000 --> 17:36.000 So I think it comes out clear 17:36.000 --> 17:37.000 that a big focus is kind of 17:37.000 --> 17:40.000 keeping coffee clean, keeping it 17:40.000 --> 17:42.000 from being contaminated by other 17:42.000 --> 17:44.000 sources. 17:44.000 --> 17:46.000 Whereas with the sustainable, 17:46.000 --> 17:48.000 it's a much broader set of goals 17:48.000 --> 17:50.000 and standards. 17:50.000 --> 17:51.000 The entire property, 17:51.000 --> 17:53.000 reforesting. 17:53.000 --> 17:54.000 And it's not that the organic 17:54.000 --> 17:56.000 and the norms doesn't mention 17:56.000 --> 17:59.000 not cutting down forests and 17:59.000 --> 18:01.000 these other issues, but again, 18:01.000 --> 18:04.000 this is coming from people who 18:04.000 --> 18:05.000 work with, translate those 18:05.000 --> 18:07.000 complicated documents into 18:07.000 --> 18:09.000 advice, recommendations for the 18:09.000 --> 18:11.000 farmers what want to get 18:11.000 --> 18:12.000 certified. 18:12.000 --> 18:14.000 What is it that you most need to 18:14.000 --> 18:15.000 pay attention to for the 18:15.000 --> 18:17.000 certifier at the end of the day 18:17.000 --> 18:19.000 to say okay, looks good enough 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 or it fulfills the most critical 18:21.000 --> 18:24.000 requirements for certification. 18:29.000 --> 18:31.000 Because the sustainable norms 18:31.000 --> 18:34.000 are much broader, they can serve 18:34.000 --> 18:35.000 as a base for then launching 18:35.000 --> 18:37.000 into an organic program, with 18:37.000 --> 18:39.000 the only exception being that if 18:39.000 --> 18:41.000 you're applying the permitted 18:41.000 --> 18:43.000 agrochemicals under the 18:43.000 --> 18:45.000 sustainable, you would have to 18:45.000 --> 18:47.000 change that to go organic. 18:47.000 --> 18:49.000 It would be much more difficult 18:49.000 --> 18:51.000 to be certified organic and then 18:51.000 --> 18:52.000 expect that you would just need 18:52.000 --> 18:54.000 to do some paper work to get the 18:54.000 --> 18:56.000 sustainable certification. 18:56.000 --> 18:58.000 Most likely you wouldn't be 18:58.000 --> 18:59.000 treating the waste water from, 18:59.000 --> 19:02.000 or in the case of this group of 19:02.000 --> 19:03.000 growers in central Peru, you 19:03.000 --> 19:05.000 wouldn't be treating the waste 19:05.000 --> 19:06.000 water from the house. 19:06.000 --> 19:08.000 You wouldn't have a chimney. 19:08.000 --> 19:10.000 May or may not have 19:10.000 --> 19:14.000 an acceptable latrine. 19:14.000 --> 19:15.000 So there would be a lot of 19:15.000 --> 19:16.000 things that you would need to do 19:16.000 --> 19:17.000 to go from organic to 19:17.000 --> 19:20.000 sustainable. 19:20.000 --> 19:21.000 But not so much the other way 19:21.000 --> 19:26.000 around. 19:26.000 --> 19:28.000 What are some of the possible 19:28.000 --> 19:31.000 issues that extension agents and 19:31.000 --> 19:33.000 people working on the ground and 19:33.000 --> 19:35.000 agronomists have noticed with 19:35.000 --> 19:39.000 the organic norms? 19:39.000 --> 19:42.000 One concern is that the amount 19:42.000 --> 19:44.000 of organic fertilizer that's 19:44.000 --> 19:47.000 available at any given time or 19:47.000 --> 19:49.000 when the farmers need it, 19:49.000 --> 19:51.000 is oftentimes very limited 19:51.000 --> 19:52.000 or costly. 19:52.000 --> 19:55.000 And so farmers, oftentimes, are 19:55.000 --> 19:57.000 not appropriately or providing 19:57.000 --> 19:59.000 enough fertilizer to replace the 19:59.000 --> 20:01.000 nutrients that are being taken 20:01.000 --> 20:02.000 out from the plant. 20:02.000 --> 20:04.000 And so you have this what's been 20:04.000 --> 20:06.000 known as soil mining where over 20:06.000 --> 20:08.000 time, the rate at which 20:08.000 --> 20:09.000 nutrients are being taken out 20:09.000 --> 20:12.000 is exceeding the rate 20:12.000 --> 20:14.000 at which those nutrients 20:14.000 --> 20:16.000 are being replaced. 20:16.000 --> 20:18.000 And one reason is that organic 20:18.000 --> 20:21.000 fertilizer, for example, the 20:21.000 --> 20:23.000 pulp that comes from processing 20:23.000 --> 20:26.000 the coffee cherries, that's used 20:26.000 --> 20:28.000 as an organic fertilizer, that's 20:28.000 --> 20:30.000 not the same as getting a 20:30.000 --> 20:32.000 synthetic pellet that has just 20:32.000 --> 20:34.000 the right mix of nitrogen, 20:34.000 --> 20:37.000 phosphorous and potassium. 20:37.000 --> 20:39.000 This is a much more specific 20:39.000 --> 20:43.000 targeted input. 20:43.000 --> 20:44.000 Whereas with the pulp, there's 20:44.000 --> 20:46.000 organic material there and 20:46.000 --> 20:47.000 there's some nitrogen, but is it 20:47.000 --> 20:49.000 enough, is it in the right mixes 20:49.000 --> 20:50.000 so that it's going to be 20:50.000 --> 20:51.000 efficiently utilized by the 20:51.000 --> 20:53.000 plant? 20:53.000 --> 20:55.000 Probably not. 20:55.000 --> 20:57.000 And then this issue, 20:57.000 --> 20:59.000 substituting herbicides with 20:59.000 --> 21:01.000 other capital inputs, came up 21:01.000 --> 21:04.000 when I was visiting a farmer in 21:04.000 --> 21:07.000 Peru this summer and he had 21:07.000 --> 21:09.000 bought a weed whacker to deal 21:09.000 --> 21:10.000 with the weeds that would grow 21:10.000 --> 21:12.000 up, and this is a major task for 21:12.000 --> 21:14.000 coffee growers to keep their 21:14.000 --> 21:17.000 fields clean. 21:17.000 --> 21:18.000 And so instead of applying a 21:18.000 --> 21:20.000 herbicide, which would break 21:20.000 --> 21:21.000 down in the soil and which would 21:21.000 --> 21:24.000 keep the ground free of weeds, 21:24.000 --> 21:26.000 he was going through with his 21:26.000 --> 21:29.000 weed whacker every now and then. 21:29.000 --> 21:31.000 And I'm thinking well I'm not 21:31.000 --> 21:34.000 convinced that we've come out 21:34.000 --> 21:37.000 ahead with this, because that 21:37.000 --> 21:39.000 weed whacker is using, it's not 21:39.000 --> 21:41.000 very clean, there's certainly 21:41.000 --> 21:44.000 noise pollution associated with 21:44.000 --> 21:46.000 it. 21:46.000 --> 21:48.000 It doesn't do as good a job 21:48.000 --> 21:50.000 as the herbicide would. 21:50.000 --> 21:51.000 So are we better off 21:51.000 --> 21:54.000 environmentally? 21:54.000 --> 21:55.000 And that's a question I want to 21:55.000 --> 21:56.000 leave you with and that's a 21:56.000 --> 21:57.000 question that needs a lot of 21:57.000 --> 22:00.000 research that has not been done 22:00.000 --> 22:03.000 in a thorough, rigorous way. 22:03.000 --> 22:06.000 And that is, given these 22:06.000 --> 22:09.000 different norms, what type of 22:09.000 --> 22:10.000 environmental outcomes 22:10.000 --> 22:12.000 are we seeing? 22:12.000 --> 22:15.000 And this is a point that I want 22:15.000 --> 22:16.000 to hit on more in the 22:16.000 --> 22:18.000 conclusion, and that is, 22:18.000 --> 22:20.000 it's not enough just to say 22:20.000 --> 22:22.000 we've certified growers, we've 22:22.000 --> 22:23.000 certified so many growers in the 22:23.000 --> 22:25.000 head waters of the Amazon so 22:25.000 --> 22:28.000 we're protecting the ecosystem. 22:28.000 --> 22:29.000 Well, I want to know, 22:29.000 --> 22:31.000 well what's changed? 22:31.000 --> 22:32.000 If before they weren't certified 22:32.000 --> 22:36.000 and now they are, does that mean 22:36.000 --> 22:37.000 that we could go and see that 22:37.000 --> 22:38.000 the quality of the water that's 22:38.000 --> 22:40.000 coming out of those watersheds 22:40.000 --> 22:41.000 is better? 22:41.000 --> 22:42.000 Does that mean that there's more 22:42.000 --> 22:44.000 bird species because of the 22:44.000 --> 22:46.000 shade cover? 22:46.000 --> 22:48.000 I want to see some quantitative 22:48.000 --> 22:50.000 evidence that there's 22:50.000 --> 22:52.000 improvements as opposed to just 22:52.000 --> 22:54.000 saying, well, they're certified 22:54.000 --> 23:01.000 so we know everything's okay. 23:01.000 --> 23:03.000 This is a picture that I think 23:03.000 --> 23:04.000 this is the only time Brad's 23:04.000 --> 23:05.000 going to appear in this 23:05.000 --> 23:07.000 presentation. 23:07.000 --> 23:08.000 Here he is, we're meeting with a 23:08.000 --> 23:10.000 grower that is under the 23:10.000 --> 23:12.000 sustainable group or working 23:12.000 --> 23:13.000 with the sustainable 23:13.000 --> 23:14.000 certification in Peru. 23:14.000 --> 23:16.000 And this is a what it says here 23:16.000 --> 23:18.000 in Spanish is a biological 23:18.000 --> 23:20.000 micro-corridor conservation of a 23:20.000 --> 23:24.000 water resource. 23:24.000 --> 23:26.000 Now this is a creek that runs 23:26.000 --> 23:27.000 along the side of this 23:27.000 --> 23:29.000 gentleman's property, and you 23:29.000 --> 23:31.000 can see that there's quite a bit 23:31.000 --> 23:34.000 of vegetation here. 23:34.000 --> 23:35.000 And that wasn't the case a 23:35.000 --> 23:36.000 couple of years ago. 23:36.000 --> 23:37.000 And this is a change that's been 23:37.000 --> 23:39.000 brought about because the 23:39.000 --> 23:41.000 certifier says you have a 23:41.000 --> 23:43.000 waterway over there, we need to 23:43.000 --> 23:45.000 see that that buffer zone around 23:45.000 --> 23:50.000 it is there and is protecting. 23:50.000 --> 23:52.000 And also, for example, the steps 23:52.000 --> 23:54.000 going up from across the creek 23:54.000 --> 23:56.000 and then up over the hill are 23:56.000 --> 23:58.000 terraced. 23:58.000 --> 24:02.000 Before, without those there, you 24:02.000 --> 24:04.000 get a heavy rain and that water 24:04.000 --> 24:05.000 has nothing to slow it down and 24:05.000 --> 24:08.000 it's going to carve a big ravine 24:08.000 --> 24:10.000 right down into the creek. 24:10.000 --> 24:12.000 So that would be something else 24:12.000 --> 24:14.000 that he would probably do 24:14.000 --> 24:16.000 as part of fulfilling 24:16.000 --> 24:19.000 the sustainable norms. 24:19.000 --> 24:21.000 Uh-oh, I'm cut off 24:21.000 --> 24:23.000 up at the top. 24:23.000 --> 24:26.000 Anyway, so that's a very broad 24:26.000 --> 24:30.000 brush picture of the organic, 24:30.000 --> 24:32.000 sustainable or other 24:32.000 --> 24:34.000 certifications issued. 24:34.000 --> 24:37.000 And I think the thing to keep in 24:37.000 --> 24:39.000 mind is that it's not clear that 24:39.000 --> 24:42.000 organic is promoting 24:42.000 --> 24:45.000 environmental sustainability 24:45.000 --> 24:46.000 better than alternative 24:46.000 --> 24:48.000 programs. 24:48.000 --> 24:49.000 And that's really something that 24:49.000 --> 24:51.000 needs to be researched better. 24:51.000 --> 24:52.000 Because there certainly are 24:52.000 --> 24:54.000 alternatives that may be doing a 24:54.000 --> 24:57.000 better job. 24:57.000 --> 25:01.000 We're not sure. 25:01.000 --> 25:05.000 Moving on to the economic side. 25:05.000 --> 25:06.000 What do growers get out of 25:06.000 --> 25:08.000 participating in these certified 25:08.000 --> 25:10.000 programs? 25:10.000 --> 25:12.000 So you have to not use 25:12.000 --> 25:14.000 agrochemicals or maybe you have 25:14.000 --> 25:16.000 to put a chimney in, or do 25:16.000 --> 25:18.000 any number of things, how is 25:18.000 --> 25:21.000 that fitting in to your overall 25:21.000 --> 25:26.000 economic well-being? 25:26.000 --> 25:27.000 To look at this for the case of 25:27.000 --> 25:30.000 fair trade organic markets, 25:30.000 --> 25:32.000 we're going to southern Mexico. 25:32.000 --> 25:34.000 Southern Mexico is a region 25:34.000 --> 25:37.000 that's been at the forefront of 25:37.000 --> 25:39.000 the growth and fair trade and 25:39.000 --> 25:40.000 organic markets from the 25:40.000 --> 25:42.000 beginning. 25:42.000 --> 25:43.000 We're using information from a 25:43.000 --> 25:45.000 survey of 845 coffee growing 25:45.000 --> 25:48.000 households randomly selected 25:48.000 --> 25:50.000 from Oaxaca and Chiapas, these 25:50.000 --> 25:51.000 are two states in southern 25:51.000 --> 25:53.000 Mexico. 25:53.000 --> 25:54.000 The data collection was 25:54.000 --> 25:55.000 supported by the Rockefeller 25:55.000 --> 25:58.000 Foundation. 25:58.000 --> 26:00.000 In this data set, if you're 26:00.000 --> 26:02.000 participating in fair trade, you 26:02.000 --> 26:04.000 generally are also participating 26:04.000 --> 26:06.000 in organic markets and you are 26:06.000 --> 26:09.000 also a member of a cooperative. 26:09.000 --> 26:12.000 So these three kind of concepts 26:12.000 --> 26:15.000 are merged together in the case 26:15.000 --> 26:16.000 of southern Mexico. 26:16.000 --> 26:18.000 We have in the sample 26:18.000 --> 26:21.000 357 conventional growers. 26:21.000 --> 26:22.000 These are growers who are 26:22.000 --> 26:24.000 generally not a part of a 26:24.000 --> 26:25.000 cooperative, they're not a part 26:25.000 --> 26:27.000 of fair trade organic. 26:27.000 --> 26:31.000 And then within fair trade, 26:31.000 --> 26:34.000 we have 417 organic, this is 26:34.000 --> 26:35.000 they've passed that transition 26:35.000 --> 26:38.000 period, generally three years, 26:38.000 --> 26:39.000 and now can sell their coffee 26:39.000 --> 26:41.000 as certified organic. 26:41.000 --> 26:43.000 And then there's 71 growers who 26:43.000 --> 26:44.000 are in transition to receiving 26:44.000 --> 26:47.000 organic certification. 26:47.000 --> 26:49.000 And again, both of these groups 26:49.000 --> 26:51.000 would be working under the fair 26:51.000 --> 26:53.000 trade, working with fair trade 26:53.000 --> 26:57.000 arrangements. 26:57.000 --> 26:59.000 To give you a sense of 26:59.000 --> 27:01.000 the economic contents of these 27:01.000 --> 27:03.000 households, the percents on the 27:03.000 --> 27:06.000 outside of the circle represent 27:06.000 --> 27:07.000 the number of households that 27:07.000 --> 27:08.000 are deriving some income from 27:08.000 --> 27:10.000 that income source. 27:10.000 --> 27:13.000 For example, 96% of households 27:13.000 --> 27:15.000 have some positive income from 27:15.000 --> 27:16.000 coffee. 27:16.000 --> 27:18.000 Which isn't surprising because 27:18.000 --> 27:19.000 we're sampling coffee growing 27:19.000 --> 27:21.000 households. 27:21.000 --> 27:23.000 About a third of households are 27:23.000 --> 27:25.000 having remittances. 27:25.000 --> 27:26.000 They're participating in this 27:26.000 --> 27:29.000 exodus of labor northwards, 27:29.000 --> 27:31.000 sending a family member there 27:31.000 --> 27:32.000 and getting remittances in 27:32.000 --> 27:34.000 return. 27:34.000 --> 27:37.000 Subsidies are also something 27:37.000 --> 27:38.000 that's prevalent for many 27:38.000 --> 27:40.000 households, as well as 27:40.000 --> 27:42.000 nonagricultural activities. 27:42.000 --> 27:43.000 This would be working for a wage 27:43.000 --> 27:46.000 in a local job. 27:46.000 --> 27:48.000 Now the inside percents 27:48.000 --> 27:52.000 in the distribution of the pie 27:52.000 --> 27:54.000 represents how important, 27:54.000 --> 27:55.000 for the average household, 27:55.000 --> 27:57.000 is that income source. 27:57.000 --> 28:00.000 So we see here remittances are 28:00.000 --> 28:02.000 by far what dominate the incomes 28:02.000 --> 28:05.000 for these households. 28:05.000 --> 28:06.000 Which is interesting because 28:06.000 --> 28:07.000 there are only 35% of the 28:07.000 --> 28:09.000 households that are getting any 28:09.000 --> 28:11.000 remittance. 28:11.000 --> 28:12.000 So that means those households 28:12.000 --> 28:14.000 that are getting remittances 28:14.000 --> 28:17.000 are getting quite a bit. 28:17.000 --> 28:20.000 And then next we have subsidies, 28:20.000 --> 28:22.000 these would be several kind of 28:22.000 --> 28:25.000 support programs for coffee 28:25.000 --> 28:27.000 growers that the Mexican 28:27.000 --> 28:29.000 government has and that's on par 28:29.000 --> 28:31.000 with the amount of actual income 28:31.000 --> 28:33.000 that coffee growers make 28:33.000 --> 28:35.000 by growing and selling coffee. 28:35.000 --> 28:36.000 And then just behind is 28:36.000 --> 28:38.000 nonagricultural activities. 28:38.000 --> 28:40.000 So a point that I want to drive 28:40.000 --> 28:42.000 home is that these households 28:42.000 --> 28:44.000 have a lot going on. 28:44.000 --> 28:45.000 They're participating in 28:45.000 --> 28:46.000 migration networks, they're 28:46.000 --> 28:47.000 participating in government 28:47.000 --> 28:49.000 programs, they're participating 28:49.000 --> 28:52.000 in the non-coffee local economy. 28:52.000 --> 28:53.000 And I'm going to later contrast 28:53.000 --> 28:55.000 this with the case of central 28:55.000 --> 28:57.000 Peru. 28:57.000 --> 28:59.000 How much are these growers 28:59.000 --> 29:03.000 earning from coffee? 29:03.000 --> 29:04.000 So if we look at what's the 29:04.000 --> 29:07.000 average net revenue, this is 29:07.000 --> 29:10.000 their total sales of coffee 29:10.000 --> 29:12.000 minus their cash costs, that 29:12.000 --> 29:14.000 would be either for hired labor 29:14.000 --> 29:17.000 or for any purchased inputs. 29:17.000 --> 29:20.000 If we break that down by 29:20.000 --> 29:22.000 certification status, we see 29:22.000 --> 29:24.000 that these conventional growers, 29:24.000 --> 29:26.000 things are not going well 29:26.000 --> 29:27.000 for them. 29:27.000 --> 29:28.000 Certainly in comparison to the 29:28.000 --> 29:30.000 transition growers who have more 29:30.000 --> 29:32.000 than double the net revenue of 29:32.000 --> 29:33.000 conventional growers per 29:33.000 --> 29:34.000 hectare. 29:34.000 --> 29:36.000 And then organic growers are 29:36.000 --> 29:38.000 slightly behind the transition 29:38.000 --> 29:39.000 growers. 29:39.000 --> 29:41.000 What's driving these 29:41.000 --> 29:42.000 differences? 29:42.000 --> 29:45.000 This is a big question because 29:45.000 --> 29:46.000 if we think about why are some 29:46.000 --> 29:48.000 coffee growing households poor, 29:48.000 --> 29:51.000 and some less poor, 29:51.000 --> 29:54.000 or maybe doing all right, 29:54.000 --> 29:55.000 we've got to understand 29:55.000 --> 29:56.000 where these differences 29:56.000 --> 29:57.000 are coming from. 29:57.000 --> 29:59.000 Are they coming from the prices 29:59.000 --> 30:00.000 that these growers are receiving 30:00.000 --> 30:02.000 for their coffee? 30:02.000 --> 30:04.000 Or are they coming from how much 30:04.000 --> 30:06.000 coffee that household is able to 30:06.000 --> 30:08.000 produce on their given land 30:08.000 --> 30:10.000 with their given plants? 30:10.000 --> 30:13.000 If we look at prices received 30:13.000 --> 30:14.000 we see, as we would expect, that 30:14.000 --> 30:16.000 the conventional are getting 30:16.000 --> 30:18.000 slightly lower prices than the 30:18.000 --> 30:19.000 transition who have access to 30:19.000 --> 30:21.000 the fair trade but cannot yet 30:21.000 --> 30:25.000 sell their coffee as organic. 30:25.000 --> 30:27.000 And they're not doing as well 30:27.000 --> 30:29.000 as the organic, which can sell 30:29.000 --> 30:30.000 their coffee with fair trade 30:30.000 --> 30:31.000 certification and with the 30:31.000 --> 30:34.000 organic certification. 30:34.000 --> 30:37.000 So the differences are about, 30:37.000 --> 30:38.000 we've got 67 cents 30:38.000 --> 30:39.000 for the conventional, 30:39.000 --> 30:41.000 about 78 cents, 30:41.000 --> 30:42.000 and then about 83 cents 30:42.000 --> 30:47.000 for the organic growers. 30:47.000 --> 30:48.000 Productivity. 30:48.000 --> 30:51.000 This is how many kilograms of 30:51.000 --> 30:53.000 coffee these growers are getting 30:53.000 --> 30:56.000 out of their land. 30:56.000 --> 30:58.000 The conventional growers 30:58.000 --> 31:00.000 are lagging far behind. 31:00.000 --> 31:01.000 They're only about 175 kilos 31:01.000 --> 31:03.000 per hectare. 31:03.000 --> 31:05.000 And the transition growers have 31:05.000 --> 31:07.000 about twice that and then the 31:07.000 --> 31:08.000 organics again are a little bit 31:08.000 --> 31:11.000 behind that. 31:11.000 --> 31:12.000 A key question, as I mentioned 31:12.000 --> 31:14.000 before, what is causing these 31:14.000 --> 31:17.000 productivity differences? 31:17.000 --> 31:19.000 Is this because the organic 31:19.000 --> 31:21.000 norms, there's something about 31:21.000 --> 31:22.000 them that raises the 31:22.000 --> 31:27.000 productivity of coffee growers? 31:27.000 --> 31:30.000 Or perhaps, the type of growers 31:30.000 --> 31:31.000 who decide to go organic and 31:31.000 --> 31:33.000 participate in cooperatives, 31:33.000 --> 31:34.000 they had higher productivity 31:34.000 --> 31:36.000 beforehand, that's the type of 31:36.000 --> 31:38.000 growers, and so then higher 31:38.000 --> 31:40.000 productivity growers are the 31:40.000 --> 31:43.000 ones who select into the organic 31:43.000 --> 31:46.000 and fair trade markets. 31:46.000 --> 31:47.000 So in other words, the organic 31:47.000 --> 31:48.000 and fair trade markets are 31:48.000 --> 31:50.000 drawing in the more progressive, 31:50.000 --> 31:52.000 more productive farmers. 31:52.000 --> 31:54.000 We're not sure. 31:54.000 --> 31:55.000 In other words, we can't say 31:55.000 --> 31:57.000 that participating in a 31:57.000 --> 31:59.000 cooperative or participating in 31:59.000 --> 32:01.000 organic fair trade causes 32:01.000 --> 32:04.000 increases in productivity. 32:04.000 --> 32:06.000 All we can really say is that 32:06.000 --> 32:08.000 this productivity difference 32:08.000 --> 32:11.000 exists, and the point that this 32:11.000 --> 32:13.000 next slide makes, it's what's 32:13.000 --> 32:15.000 causing differences, most of the 32:15.000 --> 32:18.000 differences, in income among 32:18.000 --> 32:22.000 groups of growers. 32:22.000 --> 32:23.000 This is a thought experiment to 32:23.000 --> 32:26.000 help drive that point home. 32:26.000 --> 32:27.000 Conventional coffee grower 32:27.000 --> 32:29.000 net revenue on average 32:29.000 --> 32:32.000 is about $203. 32:32.000 --> 32:34.000 If we keep everything else the 32:34.000 --> 32:35.000 same and we just say 32:35.000 --> 32:36.000 conventional grower we're going 32:36.000 --> 32:38.000 to give you the price that a 32:38.000 --> 32:40.000 transitional grower receives, 32:40.000 --> 32:41.000 how much will your net revenue 32:41.000 --> 32:44.000 per hectare increase? 32:44.000 --> 32:45.000 And it's going to increase 32:45.000 --> 32:48.000 to $247. 32:48.000 --> 32:49.000 So yes, there's an income 32:49.000 --> 32:51.000 increase associated with selling 32:51.000 --> 32:53.000 to fair trade. 32:53.000 --> 32:55.000 That's clear. 32:55.000 --> 32:58.000 But let's say now we give you 32:58.000 --> 33:00.000 the conventional market price, 33:00.000 --> 33:02.000 you as a conventional grower, 33:02.000 --> 33:04.000 but we're going to give you the 33:04.000 --> 33:05.000 productivity of a transition 33:05.000 --> 33:08.000 grower. 33:08.000 --> 33:09.000 Suddenly, still getting the 33:09.000 --> 33:11.000 conventional price but getting 33:11.000 --> 33:13.000 the productivity of a transition 33:13.000 --> 33:16.000 grower, the income goes up 33:16.000 --> 33:20.000 by up to $398. 33:20.000 --> 33:24.000 Basically doubles their income. 33:24.000 --> 33:25.000 Whereas it's only increasing it 33:25.000 --> 33:27.000 by about 20% in the case of the 33:27.000 --> 33:28.000 prices. 33:28.000 --> 33:29.000 And then this is the actual 33:29.000 --> 33:32.000 transition net revenue. 33:32.000 --> 33:33.000 So if we just gave them the same 33:33.000 --> 33:35.000 productivity as the transition 33:35.000 --> 33:38.000 group we would bring them pretty 33:38.000 --> 33:40.000 close to making about the same 33:40.000 --> 33:41.000 amount of money as the 33:41.000 --> 33:44.000 transition growers. 33:49.000 --> 33:50.000 If we go back to this question 33:50.000 --> 33:52.000 of fair trade organic, 33:52.000 --> 33:53.000 is this improving livelihoods 33:53.000 --> 33:56.000 in southern Mexico? 33:56.000 --> 33:57.000 It's difficult to say because 33:57.000 --> 33:59.000 we're not sure if that's the 33:59.000 --> 34:01.000 cause of these productivity 34:01.000 --> 34:03.000 differences. 34:03.000 --> 34:04.000 But what we can say is that 34:04.000 --> 34:06.000 coffee is really just one 34:06.000 --> 34:07.000 activity in the mix of several 34:07.000 --> 34:09.000 that these households are 34:09.000 --> 34:11.000 pursuing. 34:11.000 --> 34:14.000 Including migration networks and 34:14.000 --> 34:16.000 getting remittances, subsidies 34:16.000 --> 34:20.000 and non-ag income. 34:20.000 --> 34:21.000 We can also say that the higher 34:21.000 --> 34:22.000 prices from fair trade and 34:22.000 --> 34:24.000 organic markets, which is 34:24.000 --> 34:26.000 something you often hear about 34:26.000 --> 34:27.000 in the popular press, getting 34:27.000 --> 34:29.000 higher prices, getting a fair 34:29.000 --> 34:31.000 price through fair trade, 34:31.000 --> 34:33.000 is not having that big 34:33.000 --> 34:34.000 of an effect on income. 34:34.000 --> 34:35.000 Or at least it's not having 34:35.000 --> 34:37.000 nearly as big of an effect 34:37.000 --> 34:41.000 as productivity is having. 34:41.000 --> 34:43.000 But an important question is how 34:43.000 --> 34:45.000 generalizable are these results? 34:45.000 --> 34:47.000 Do we observe this finding 34:47.000 --> 34:50.000 that the productivity effect 34:50.000 --> 34:52.000 dominates the income effect 34:52.000 --> 34:54.000 from certification premiums? 34:54.000 --> 34:55.000 Do we see that 34:55.000 --> 34:58.000 in other countries? 34:58.000 --> 34:59.000 And to answer that question 34:59.000 --> 35:01.000 we're going to dive now, we're 35:01.000 --> 35:04.000 going to return to central Peru, 35:04.000 --> 35:05.000 where in the sample of growers 35:05.000 --> 35:07.000 that we're looking at, 35:07.000 --> 35:09.000 they had, this is pounds 35:09.000 --> 35:12.000 of coffee per hectare. 35:12.000 --> 35:14.000 So the top row is for our sample 35:14.000 --> 35:16.000 of about 200 growers, how many 35:16.000 --> 35:18.000 pounds of coffee were they 35:18.000 --> 35:20.000 producing per hectare? 35:20.000 --> 35:22.000 And this is for the state of 35:22.000 --> 35:24.000 Junin, and the two match 35:24.000 --> 35:28.000 each other pretty well. 35:28.000 --> 35:30.000 And then here, we see our sample 35:30.000 --> 35:32.000 from Oaxaca, our sample from 35:32.000 --> 35:34.000 Chiapas, and then later what are 35:34.000 --> 35:36.000 the state numbers for those 35:36.000 --> 35:39.000 areas. 35:39.000 --> 35:40.000 And it should stand out right 35:40.000 --> 35:42.000 away that both the department of 35:42.000 --> 35:44.000 Junin and the growers in our 35:44.000 --> 35:46.000 sample have doubled the 35:46.000 --> 35:49.000 productivity of growers 35:49.000 --> 35:52.000 from the Mexico sample. 35:52.000 --> 35:55.000 And the Chiapas growers are 35:55.000 --> 35:56.000 under the average for their 35:56.000 --> 35:58.000 state, whereas the growers from 35:58.000 --> 36:01.000 Oaxaca are about on par. 36:01.000 --> 36:03.000 Now if we go forward in time, 36:03.000 --> 36:05.000 that's in 2005 when the Mexico 36:05.000 --> 36:06.000 data was collected, if we go 36:06.000 --> 36:09.000 forward in time, we don't have 36:09.000 --> 36:12.000 data for 2008 from these 36:12.000 --> 36:14.000 specific growers in Mexico, 36:14.000 --> 36:17.000 but we do have from those states 36:17.000 --> 36:19.000 and we can see that Junin and 36:19.000 --> 36:22.000 the Peruvian sample is now 36:22.000 --> 36:24.000 four times, in the case of 36:24.000 --> 36:26.000 Oaxaca versus central Peru, 36:26.000 --> 36:27.000 central Peru is growing four 36:27.000 --> 36:29.000 times the amount of coffee for 36:29.000 --> 36:31.000 the same amount of land. 36:31.000 --> 36:33.000 And if we compare from 2008 to 36:33.000 --> 36:36.000 2005 in different places, 36:36.000 --> 36:39.000 the differences are striking. 36:43.000 --> 36:45.000 And those circles draw that out. 36:45.000 --> 36:47.000 So now let's take a little more 36:47.000 --> 36:49.000 detailed look at these different 36:49.000 --> 36:52.000 growers and different countries. 36:52.000 --> 36:54.000 So here in this column 36:54.000 --> 36:55.000 we're looking at 36:55.000 --> 36:57.000 just the organic growers. 36:57.000 --> 36:59.000 Now these are organic and also 36:59.000 --> 37:01.000 fair trade growers because 37:01.000 --> 37:04.000 the two are joined together 37:04.000 --> 37:05.000 in the case of southern Mexico. 37:05.000 --> 37:07.000 And then these are the 37:07.000 --> 37:08.000 sustainable growers in Peru. 37:08.000 --> 37:09.000 Sustainable growers are a little 37:09.000 --> 37:11.000 bigger, that's not super 37:11.000 --> 37:13.000 interesting. 37:13.000 --> 37:14.000 This is an interesting 37:14.000 --> 37:16.000 statistic. 37:16.000 --> 37:17.000 The coffee growers, the organic 37:17.000 --> 37:20.000 coffee growers in Mexico are 37:20.000 --> 37:21.000 only getting about a third of 37:21.000 --> 37:23.000 their income from coffee. 37:23.000 --> 37:25.000 Again, it's just one activity 37:25.000 --> 37:26.000 in the mix of many. 37:26.000 --> 37:28.000 In the case of the Peru, they're 37:28.000 --> 37:29.000 getting most of their income 37:29.000 --> 37:31.000 from coffee. 37:31.000 --> 37:34.000 Coffee is what determines what 37:34.000 --> 37:36.000 they can consume in a year. 37:36.000 --> 37:38.000 Now, let's take a look at 37:38.000 --> 37:43.000 incomes. 37:43.000 --> 37:45.000 In terms of productivity, we're 37:45.000 --> 37:48.000 seeing that growers in Mexico in 37:48.000 --> 37:50.000 2005, organic growers, have a 37:50.000 --> 37:53.000 much lower productivity than the 37:53.000 --> 37:55.000 sustainable growers in Peru. 37:55.000 --> 37:57.000 Sustainable growers in Peru have 37:57.000 --> 37:59.000 about four times that 37:59.000 --> 38:01.000 of the organic growers. 38:01.000 --> 38:05.000 Correspondingly, growers in Peru 38:05.000 --> 38:08.000 have about four times the net 38:08.000 --> 38:11.000 revenue per hectare as 38:11.000 --> 38:12.000 the organic growers in Mexico. 38:12.000 --> 38:14.000 So this is consistent with our 38:14.000 --> 38:16.000 comparisons between transition 38:16.000 --> 38:17.000 and organic growers in 38:17.000 --> 38:19.000 conventional grower incomes, and 38:19.000 --> 38:20.000 we're finding that really it's 38:20.000 --> 38:22.000 about productivity, that's 38:22.000 --> 38:24.000 what's driving differences 38:24.000 --> 38:25.000 in net revenues. 38:25.000 --> 38:27.000 And when we compare between the 38:27.000 --> 38:28.000 organic growers in Mexico 38:28.000 --> 38:30.000 and the growers in Peru 38:30.000 --> 38:32.000 we also find that. 38:32.000 --> 38:34.000 That the differences in income 38:34.000 --> 38:36.000 between these groups is 38:36.000 --> 38:37.000 an artifact of how much coffee 38:37.000 --> 38:39.000 they're able to get 38:39.000 --> 38:43.000 out of a given amount of land. 38:43.000 --> 38:44.000 How much are these growers in 38:44.000 --> 38:46.000 Peru, how much of their increase 38:46.000 --> 38:49.000 in revenue comes from getting a 38:49.000 --> 38:52.000 premium for being certified? 38:52.000 --> 38:55.000 Here we see this is the premium 38:55.000 --> 38:57.000 in US dollars per pound in 2007 38:57.000 --> 39:00.000 and 2008 for growers that sold 39:00.000 --> 39:01.000 to their cooperative in the 39:01.000 --> 39:04.000 project. 39:04.000 --> 39:06.000 It's about 7-cents in 2007 39:06.000 --> 39:08.000 and about half that in 2008. 39:08.000 --> 39:12.000 And that translated in 2007 39:12.000 --> 39:14.000 about an additional $147 39:14.000 --> 39:18.000 in income for those growers. 39:18.000 --> 39:20.000 But that additional, that 39:20.000 --> 39:22.000 increase in income from selling 39:22.000 --> 39:24.000 to a higher valued market 39:24.000 --> 39:26.000 per hectare was pretty small and 39:26.000 --> 39:29.000 really only represents about 3% 39:29.000 --> 39:31.000 of the net revenue per hectare. 39:31.000 --> 39:35.000 So it's really not about prices. 39:35.000 --> 39:37.000 At least for these growers. 39:37.000 --> 39:39.000 And it seems to be the case 39:39.000 --> 39:40.000 in Mexico as well. 39:40.000 --> 39:42.000 That it's not prices that drive 39:42.000 --> 39:44.000 the differences in income, 39:44.000 --> 39:48.000 it's productivity. 39:48.000 --> 39:49.000 And productivity is something 39:49.000 --> 39:51.000 that this project in central 39:51.000 --> 39:53.000 Peru focused on. 39:53.000 --> 39:56.000 The project, Proyecto Teirra, 39:56.000 --> 39:58.000 Project Land, 39:58.000 --> 40:00.000 didn't just focus on, we want 40:00.000 --> 40:01.000 to certify you to get a higher 40:01.000 --> 40:02.000 price and that will solve your 40:02.000 --> 40:04.000 livelihood issues. 40:04.000 --> 40:06.000 They also said you know what, 40:06.000 --> 40:07.000 it's really important that these 40:07.000 --> 40:09.000 farmers are managing their 40:09.000 --> 40:10.000 resources well, that they're 40:10.000 --> 40:12.000 getting the most out of their 40:12.000 --> 40:14.000 plants, that they're keeping 40:14.000 --> 40:16.000 track of their costs, keeping 40:16.000 --> 40:18.000 track of productivity and 40:18.000 --> 40:20.000 managing it like a business. 40:20.000 --> 40:21.000 And one practice that they 40:21.000 --> 40:23.000 introduced to further these 40:23.000 --> 40:28.000 goals was systematic pruning. 40:28.000 --> 40:32.000 This is where a grower 40:32.000 --> 40:34.000 cuts his tree off, 40:34.000 --> 40:35.000 now a coffee tree can grow 40:35.000 --> 40:36.000 up about-- 40:36.000 --> 40:38.000 If you let it go, it can grow 40:38.000 --> 40:39.000 quite tall. 40:39.000 --> 40:40.000 And he cuts it off 40:40.000 --> 40:41.000 at about a meter in height 40:41.000 --> 40:43.000 or about waist height, 40:43.000 --> 40:44.000 and he does that to a section of 40:44.000 --> 40:45.000 his farm each year in a rotating 40:45.000 --> 40:47.000 fashion. 40:47.000 --> 40:49.000 And the idea is that you can 40:49.000 --> 40:51.000 stabilize production 40:51.000 --> 40:53.000 through that practice. 40:53.000 --> 40:55.000 Stabilize and increase because 40:55.000 --> 40:57.000 when you prune the plant 40:57.000 --> 40:58.000 it stimulates the plant to fill 40:58.000 --> 41:01.000 out, to produce more branches 41:01.000 --> 41:03.000 and leaves from which then 41:03.000 --> 41:06.000 lots of berries come forth. 41:06.000 --> 41:08.000 And this is very important 41:08.000 --> 41:09.000 because the growers in central 41:09.000 --> 41:13.000 Peru, they had older trees. 41:13.000 --> 41:15.000 And as trees get older, their 41:15.000 --> 41:17.000 productivity drops dramatically. 41:17.000 --> 41:19.000 Systematic pruning, in effect, 41:19.000 --> 41:21.000 gets an older plant to produce 41:21.000 --> 41:24.000 like a new one. 41:24.000 --> 41:26.000 But growers, before I get into 41:26.000 --> 41:29.000 this, the growers in this 41:29.000 --> 41:30.000 project were initially 41:30.000 --> 41:32.000 very skeptical of this idea. 41:32.000 --> 41:33.000 They're deriving their 41:33.000 --> 41:35.000 livelihoods, most of their 41:35.000 --> 41:36.000 income, as I showed before, is 41:36.000 --> 41:38.000 coming from coffee growing. 41:38.000 --> 41:39.000 What happens if I cut my plants 41:39.000 --> 41:40.000 down? 41:40.000 --> 41:42.000 This is ludicrous they said. 41:42.000 --> 41:45.000 In one case, the agronomist in 41:45.000 --> 41:47.000 the project came into a 41:47.000 --> 41:48.000 community and said we're going 41:48.000 --> 41:50.000 to cut your plants down and they 41:50.000 --> 41:52.000 kicked him out. 41:52.000 --> 41:53.000 They wouldn't let him finish the 41:53.000 --> 41:54.000 meeting. 41:54.000 --> 41:55.000 They said this is crazy. 41:55.000 --> 41:57.000 In another case, it's a great 41:57.000 --> 41:58.000 story that some growers like to 41:58.000 --> 42:00.000 tell, is that there was one guy 42:00.000 --> 42:01.000 who was thinking this might 42:01.000 --> 42:03.000 work. 42:03.000 --> 42:05.000 He was thinking about it. 42:05.000 --> 42:07.000 And his wife said if you cut our 42:07.000 --> 42:09.000 plants down I am leaving you. 42:09.000 --> 42:12.000 You do not touch our plants. 42:12.000 --> 42:14.000 And I think that gives you the 42:14.000 --> 42:15.000 sense these are households that 42:15.000 --> 42:17.000 are dependent on coffee, this 42:17.000 --> 42:19.000 idea seemed very risky. 42:19.000 --> 42:21.000 You're cutting your plant down. 42:21.000 --> 42:22.000 And, in fact, you don't get 42:22.000 --> 42:23.000 production from the plant in the 42:23.000 --> 42:25.000 following year, it's only 42:25.000 --> 42:27.000 in the year afterwards 42:27.000 --> 42:28.000 when it comes back. 42:28.000 --> 42:30.000 So there is that year in which 42:30.000 --> 42:32.000 if you don't have much savings 42:32.000 --> 42:34.000 to go on maybe you can't make 42:34.000 --> 42:37.000 that jump; maybe you can't deal 42:37.000 --> 42:43.000 with that short drop in income. 42:43.000 --> 42:45.000 How much production or how does 42:45.000 --> 42:49.000 the pruning affect yields? 42:49.000 --> 42:50.000 This is just a statistical 42:50.000 --> 42:52.000 exercise that I did where I 42:52.000 --> 42:55.000 looked at changes in yield, 42:55.000 --> 42:57.000 that's kilograms of coffee per 42:57.000 --> 43:01.000 hectare, between 2008 and 2009, 43:01.000 --> 43:04.000 controlling for what your change 43:04.000 --> 43:06.000 in yields were last year and 43:06.000 --> 43:08.000 then whether or not you pruned 43:08.000 --> 43:12.000 in 2006, 2007 and 2008. 43:12.000 --> 43:14.000 The way to interpret these 43:14.000 --> 43:16.000 numbers is that if I pruned in 43:16.000 --> 43:18.000 2006 and then didn't do anything 43:18.000 --> 43:21.000 in the following years, the 43:21.000 --> 43:22.000 immediate effect is to decrease 43:22.000 --> 43:24.000 my production, I'm taking that 43:24.000 --> 43:27.000 plant out of production. 43:27.000 --> 43:28.000 But then the following year I'm 43:28.000 --> 43:31.000 going to get some of it back, 43:31.000 --> 43:33.000 in fact most of it back. 43:33.000 --> 43:34.000 And in the year afterwards 43:34.000 --> 43:36.000 I'm going to get it back 43:36.000 --> 43:37.000 in a big way, 43:37.000 --> 43:40.000 about 865 kilogram increase 43:40.000 --> 43:43.000 is what's associated with that. 43:43.000 --> 43:44.000 So the key note here is that 43:44.000 --> 43:46.000 this is a method that although 43:46.000 --> 43:48.000 it lowers production initially, 43:48.000 --> 43:51.000 it brings it back in a big way. 43:58.000 --> 43:59.000 So I think one of the 43:59.000 --> 44:02.000 conclusions that we can draw 44:02.000 --> 44:04.000 or perhaps a better way to say 44:04.000 --> 44:05.000 that is one thing that these 44:05.000 --> 44:07.000 observations suggest is that 44:07.000 --> 44:09.000 environmentally sound 44:09.000 --> 44:11.000 alternatives to organic may 44:11.000 --> 44:13.000 exist. 44:13.000 --> 44:14.000 In fact, there may be 44:14.000 --> 44:16.000 environmentally superior methods 44:16.000 --> 44:18.000 but that this really needs more 44:18.000 --> 44:20.000 evaluation of connecting 44:20.000 --> 44:22.000 specific practices 44:22.000 --> 44:25.000 with outcomes. 44:25.000 --> 44:26.000 If farmers aren't allowed to use 44:26.000 --> 44:28.000 herbicides or they're not 44:28.000 --> 44:29.000 allowed to use synthetic 44:29.000 --> 44:31.000 fertilizers, does soil quality 44:31.000 --> 44:34.000 fall? 44:34.000 --> 44:38.000 Does productivity fall? 44:38.000 --> 44:41.000 Is there contamination? 44:41.000 --> 44:43.000 Is there really negative effects 44:43.000 --> 44:44.000 to using any type of 44:44.000 --> 44:46.000 agrochemical? 44:46.000 --> 44:48.000 Or is that perhaps a knee-jerk 44:48.000 --> 44:50.000 extreme reaction to synthetic 44:50.000 --> 44:55.000 inputs in general? 44:55.000 --> 44:57.000 It comes out pretty clear. 44:57.000 --> 44:58.000 On this side, I think that's 44:58.000 --> 45:00.000 where Brad and I have the least 45:00.000 --> 45:03.000 concrete information to go on. 45:03.000 --> 45:05.000 But this is a conclusion that we 45:05.000 --> 45:08.000 can stand behind quite firmly, 45:08.000 --> 45:09.000 and that is the effect of 45:09.000 --> 45:12.000 productivity on income dominates 45:12.000 --> 45:13.000 the effect of higher prices on 45:13.000 --> 45:16.000 income. 45:16.000 --> 45:18.000 And now this is a provocative 45:18.000 --> 45:20.000 point. 45:20.000 --> 45:22.000 A passive low-intensive 45:22.000 --> 45:24.000 management of crops, and you 45:24.000 --> 45:26.000 could think of having an organic 45:26.000 --> 45:30.000 system that's intense, but you 45:30.000 --> 45:31.000 could also think, and I think 45:31.000 --> 45:33.000 it's true for a lot of cases in 45:33.000 --> 45:35.000 Peru especially, that organic is 45:35.000 --> 45:36.000 associated with a passive 45:36.000 --> 45:38.000 management of the crop. 45:38.000 --> 45:41.000 No inputs or low inputs, 45:41.000 --> 45:45.000 some labor spent on cleaning, 45:45.000 --> 45:47.000 on weeding, but we're not going 45:47.000 --> 45:50.000 to buy fertilizers, we're not 45:50.000 --> 45:52.000 going to buy synthetic inputs, 45:52.000 --> 45:55.000 herbicides. 45:55.000 --> 45:57.000 That may have negative effects 45:57.000 --> 45:58.000 on both ecosystems 45:58.000 --> 46:01.000 and livelihoods. 46:01.000 --> 46:02.000 Why could that be? 46:02.000 --> 46:04.000 Why would one think that? 46:04.000 --> 46:06.000 Well, lower productivity means 46:06.000 --> 46:08.000 that there's less goods coming 46:08.000 --> 46:10.000 out on the market, less coffee 46:10.000 --> 46:11.000 on the market, that's going to 46:11.000 --> 46:13.000 raise the price of the final 46:13.000 --> 46:16.000 good, but it's also going to 46:16.000 --> 46:18.000 increase demand for the raw 46:18.000 --> 46:20.000 materials that go into making 46:20.000 --> 46:23.000 coffee, particularly land. 46:23.000 --> 46:24.000 If you have very low 46:24.000 --> 46:26.000 productivity, you're getting 46:26.000 --> 46:27.000 little coffee out of the land 46:27.000 --> 46:29.000 that you have, to produce a lot 46:29.000 --> 46:30.000 of coffee, you need a lot of 46:30.000 --> 46:32.000 land. 46:32.000 --> 46:33.000 So you bring more coffee land 46:33.000 --> 46:35.000 into production. 46:35.000 --> 46:37.000 So that's one mechanism 46:37.000 --> 46:38.000 through which the organic 46:38.000 --> 46:40.000 may have some negative 46:40.000 --> 46:43.000 environmental consequences. 46:43.000 --> 46:44.000 And if a household is getting 46:44.000 --> 46:45.000 very little coffee out of the 46:45.000 --> 46:48.000 hectares that they have, 46:48.000 --> 46:50.000 to reach some adequate income to 46:50.000 --> 46:52.000 meet their basic needs they may 46:52.000 --> 46:54.000 need to expand the scale of 46:54.000 --> 46:55.000 their operation. 46:55.000 --> 46:58.000 Again, bringing more land into 46:58.000 --> 47:01.000 coffee production. 47:01.000 --> 47:03.000 Which, in the cases of, I don't 47:03.000 --> 47:05.000 think in the case of Peru, 47:05.000 --> 47:06.000 but in the case of Mexico, 47:06.000 --> 47:07.000 it may mean cutting down 47:07.000 --> 47:09.000 virgin forests or expanding 47:09.000 --> 47:11.000 into areas where coffee 47:11.000 --> 47:15.000 previously was not grown. 47:15.000 --> 47:18.000 What are some recommendations or 47:18.000 --> 47:21.000 some thoughts going forward for 47:21.000 --> 47:22.000 what people and organizations 47:22.000 --> 47:24.000 that are working with rural 47:24.000 --> 47:25.000 coffee growing communities 47:25.000 --> 47:27.000 should keep in mind? 47:27.000 --> 47:29.000 I think an important role that 47:29.000 --> 47:30.000 nongovernment organizations and 47:30.000 --> 47:32.000 cooperatives could play to 47:32.000 --> 47:34.000 increase incomes and 47:34.000 --> 47:36.000 livelihoods, improve 47:36.000 --> 47:38.000 livelihoods, is to perhaps shift 47:38.000 --> 47:40.000 their focus, in some cases 47:40.000 --> 47:43.000 obsession, on getting certified 47:43.000 --> 47:45.000 and getting a higher price to 47:45.000 --> 47:51.000 more on management, innovation, 47:51.000 --> 47:53.000 using the best practices, best 47:53.000 --> 47:56.000 agronomic practices, because I 47:56.000 --> 48:01.000 think currently that's something 48:01.000 --> 48:03.000 that's been superseded by this 48:03.000 --> 48:06.000 obsession with let's get you 48:06.000 --> 48:07.000 certified and let's get you 48:07.000 --> 48:09.000 selling, exporting, to a higher 48:09.000 --> 48:12.000 value market. 48:12.000 --> 48:15.000 And in some cases, cooperatives, 48:15.000 --> 48:16.000 their extension agencies are the 48:16.000 --> 48:18.000 people that work with their 48:18.000 --> 48:19.000 member growers have now been 48:19.000 --> 48:21.000 turned into agents of 48:21.000 --> 48:24.000 certification. 48:24.000 --> 48:26.000 All their time is spent taking 48:26.000 --> 48:29.000 the norms that are handed down 48:29.000 --> 48:32.000 from the certifier and going, 48:32.000 --> 48:33.000 running around and making sure 48:33.000 --> 48:35.000 that they can check off the 48:35.000 --> 48:36.000 boxes. 48:36.000 --> 48:38.000 And so they're not spending time 48:38.000 --> 48:40.000 thinking about what are better 48:40.000 --> 48:42.000 ways of producing, what are 48:42.000 --> 48:45.000 agronomical practices that are 48:45.000 --> 48:47.000 going to raise productivity. 48:47.000 --> 48:48.000 Instead, they're thinking 48:48.000 --> 48:50.000 what do we need to get people 48:50.000 --> 48:51.000 to do, so that the certifier 48:51.000 --> 48:53.000 is going to say, okay 48:53.000 --> 48:58.000 he can sell to this market. 48:58.000 --> 49:00.000 This role for NGOs and 49:00.000 --> 49:02.000 cooperatives to improve the 49:02.000 --> 49:04.000 management of coffee farms, 49:04.000 --> 49:06.000 promote the best practices and 49:06.000 --> 49:08.000 in that way improve the 49:08.000 --> 49:10.000 livelihoods and the ecosystems 49:10.000 --> 49:12.000 of these areas could be critical 49:12.000 --> 49:13.000 because, in Latin America 49:13.000 --> 49:17.000 especially, after the mid-'80s 49:17.000 --> 49:20.000 the state governments in these 49:20.000 --> 49:22.000 countries have really retreated 49:22.000 --> 49:24.000 from extension services. 49:24.000 --> 49:26.000 So they've, in many cases, 49:26.000 --> 49:28.000 kind of let the especially 49:28.000 --> 49:32.000 smaller-scale farmer 49:32.000 --> 49:35.000 to face his fate by himself, and 49:35.000 --> 49:37.000 that these extension services 49:37.000 --> 49:39.000 that connect and spread 49:39.000 --> 49:42.000 innovations and best practices 49:42.000 --> 49:44.000 are not there anymore. 49:44.000 --> 49:46.000 And so there needs to be some 49:46.000 --> 49:48.000 vehicle or agents in the rural 49:48.000 --> 49:50.000 areas that are promoting these 49:50.000 --> 49:52.000 innovations that are going to 49:52.000 --> 49:53.000 allow for coffee growing 49:53.000 --> 49:55.000 households to get more out of 49:55.000 --> 49:57.000 the plants that they have, more 49:57.000 --> 49:59.000 out of the land that they have 49:59.000 --> 50:01.000 and do so in a way that's not 50:01.000 --> 50:04.000 degrading to their ecosystems. 50:04.000 --> 50:06.000 Thank you. 50:06.000 --> 50:08.000 And I'm looking forward 50:08.000 --> 50:09.000 to questions. 50:09.000 --> 50:11.000 I'm sure you have many. 50:11.000 --> 50:15.000 (applause)