1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 cc 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000 >> Kevin Check: Good afternoon 3 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000 and welcome to today's 4 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Global Hot Spots lecture. 5 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,000 My name is Kevin Check. 6 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000 I'm Senior Director of School 7 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,000 and College Relations at the 8 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Wisconsin Alumni Association. 9 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000 We're very pleased to continue 10 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,000 to bring this great programming 11 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,000 to you in partnership with the 12 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Division of International 13 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Studies and PLATO 14 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,000 and Continuing Studies. 15 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,000 Today we welcome as our speaker 16 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,000 Jeremy Weber who graciously 17 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,000 agreed to step in for our 18 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,000 originally scheduled speaker, 19 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,000 Brad Barham, a professor of Ag 20 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,000 and Applied Economics who 21 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,000 happens to be starting a new 22 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,000 project in Bolivia. 23 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,000 And Jeremy tells me that he was 24 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,000 communicating with him 25 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,000 this morning in Bolivia. 26 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,000 Jeremy is a PhD candidate 27 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,000 in the Agricultural and 28 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Applied Economics Department 29 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,000 here at UW Madison. 30 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,000 His research covers development 31 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,000 and conservation themes and has 32 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,000 involved projects in Mexico, 33 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Brazil and Peru. 34 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000 He began studying fair trade 35 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000 organic coffee arrangements with 36 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,000 a Fulbright grant in Peru in 37 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,000 2005, and has since continued to 38 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000 explore economics issues 39 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,000 surrounding coffee growing 40 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,000 households. 41 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,000 His dissertation studies the 42 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,000 uneven diffusion of an 43 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,000 innovative pruning practice 44 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,000 among coffee growers in central 45 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Peru. 46 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,000 Please join me in welcoming 47 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,000 Jeremy Weber as he presents 48 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,000 "Is Organic Fair Trade 49 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,000 Agriculture Sustainable? 50 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Observations of Coffee Growing 51 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,000 in Mexico and Peru." 52 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,000 ( applause ) 53 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,000 >> Jeremy Weber: Thank you, 54 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Kevin, and thank you all 55 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,000 for coming out. 56 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,000 What I'm going to present draws 57 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 on several different projects 58 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,000 that have involved a number of 59 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,000 people. 60 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,000 And those projects have been 61 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,000 more narrowly focused. 62 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Brad and I and some others have 63 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 looked at schooling outcomes in 64 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,000 coffee growing households in 65 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,000 southern Mexico. 66 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,000 I'm looking at technology in 67 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,000 Peru. 68 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,000 But Brad's a big picture guy, 69 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 and he said why don't we take 70 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,000 this opportunity to take a step 71 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,000 back from our narrow focus and 72 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000 look at some of the broader 73 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,000 themes, some of the comparative 74 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,000 differences between the areas 75 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,000 that we're working and try to 76 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,000 draw some conclusions and 77 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000 comment on those differences. 78 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,000 So that's the fruit of this 79 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,000 lecture. 80 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000 The topic of economic scarcity 81 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,000 and economic growth and its 82 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,000 relationship to the environment 83 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,000 is certainly a relevant one 84 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,000 today and that's, I think, 85 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,000 brought out by this quote that 86 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Bill Gates made a couple weeks 87 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,000 ago at the World Food Symposium. 88 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,000 He says, "Environmentalists are 89 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,000 standing in the way of feeding 90 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000 humanity through their 91 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,000 opposition to biotechnology, 92 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000 farm chemicals and nitrogen 93 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,000 fertilizer." 94 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,000 I think what this quote really 95 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,000 says or what it shows is the 96 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,000 status of the debate surrounding 97 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,000 economics and the environment. 98 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,000 And I think that the structure 99 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,000 of that debate is one where you 100 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000 have two poles, one where people 101 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000 have significant faith in the 102 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,000 ability of technology to resolve 103 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 problems of scarcity and also 104 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,000 environmental problems as they 105 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,000 may arise, and then at the other 106 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,000 pole, a group of people that are 107 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 very wary of technology and are 108 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,000 environmental purists in 109 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,000 thinking that there's really 110 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,000 only one platform or one way of 111 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,000 producing that's compatible with 112 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,000 environmental sustainability. 113 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,000 And what I'm going to talk about 114 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,000 today and the information that 115 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,000 I'm going to bring to bare on 116 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,000 this argument I think presents a 117 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,000 much more nuanced perspective 118 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,000 and says both of those camps 119 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,000 probably don't have it quite 120 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,000 right and that the details of 121 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 these problems that we're 122 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 talking about are going to show 123 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,000 why those two ways probably 124 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,000 are not a good way of thinking 125 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,000 about this problem. 126 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Coffee is a great product to 127 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 look at when thinking about 128 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 issues of the environment and 129 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,000 issues of economics and welfare 130 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,000 and livelihoods. 131 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 Latin America, in particular, 132 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,000 has many households, rural 133 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,000 households, that depend upon 134 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,000 growing coffee for their 135 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,000 livelihoods. 136 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000 And those coffee farms are 137 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,000 located in areas that often are 138 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000 biodiversity hot spots. 139 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Think of cloud forests, think of 140 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000 this is the transition zone from 141 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,000 the highlands of the Andes 142 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,000 Mountains into the lowland 143 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,000 tropical area. 144 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,000 In between is this area called, 145 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000 in some regions, the brow of the 146 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,000 jungle. 147 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,000 This is elevations about 1,000 148 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,000 to 2,000-meters above sea level. 149 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,000 Because slight changes in 150 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,000 elevations are associated with 151 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,000 different microclimates, 152 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,000 different plants and animals. 153 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,000 And this is where coffee is 154 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,000 being grown. 155 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,000 I'm going to start out focusing 156 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000 on Peru and looking at two 157 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,000 different platforms for growing 158 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 coffee both of which have 159 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,000 environmental concerns 160 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,000 integrated into them. 161 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And this is going to be a 162 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,000 broader picture of two different 163 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,000 approaches to growing 164 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,000 sustainable coffee, and then I'm 165 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,000 going to focus in on the 166 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,000 economic side of it. 167 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,000 That is, the economics driving 168 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,000 the livelihoods that households 169 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,000 are able to earn by growing 170 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,000 coffee and I'm going to first 171 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,000 look at southern Mexico and, in 172 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,000 particular, fair trade and 173 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,000 organic growers there, 174 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,000 and then go back into Peru. 175 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,000 The organic certification, and 176 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,000 here I'm just going to focus in 177 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:06,000 on organic and not fair trade, 178 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,000 but the organic certification is 179 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,000 one where I think many consumers 180 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,000 associate it with, if you want 181 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:13,000 to be environmentally 182 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,000 responsible, you buy a product 183 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000 that has an organic label. 184 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,000 Other things are maybe not going 185 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,000 to get the job done. 186 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,000 There's a lot of faith placed on 187 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,000 organic being the best way to 188 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,000 maintain the integrity of the 189 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,000 ecosystems where the product is 190 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,000 being produced. 191 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,000 But there are a number of 192 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,000 competing certifications out 193 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,000 there, especially in the case of 194 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,000 coffee, and some of these 195 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,000 certification may be 196 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,000 complementary to each other and 197 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,000 others may be competing in a 198 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,000 sense that they're offering a 199 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,000 different way, a different set 200 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,000 of standards to ensure the same 201 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000 outcomes. 202 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,000 So we have the fair trade 203 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,000 certification which is a little 204 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,000 more socially oriented and 205 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,000 that's paired recently with the 206 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,000 organic and in the market now 207 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,000 you see a lot of fair trade 208 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000 organic labeled coffee. 209 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000 But they are separate 210 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,000 certifications with different 211 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000 standards and norms. 212 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,000 But then we have the Rainforest 213 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,000 Alliance is a group that has 214 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000 created the sustainable 215 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,000 agricultural certification, and 216 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,000 you can see this in your 217 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000 supermarkets oftentimes, 218 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,000 especially in the coffee aisle, 219 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,000 when a bag that has a label with 220 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000 a little green frog on the 221 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,000 label. 222 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,000 And then Utz Kapeh, which 223 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,000 I think is good coffee in Mayan, 224 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 is again another approach, 225 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,000 another certification out there 226 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,000 that says these norms are 227 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,000 consistent with environmental 228 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000 sustainability. 229 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,000 The Smithsonian Institute 230 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000 oversees a bird-friendly 231 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,000 certification, and then there's 232 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,000 an industry set of practices 233 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,000 known as cafe practices that's 234 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,000 another label that's thrown on 235 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000 coffee. 236 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,000 So a natural question is are 237 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,000 these labels all doing the same 238 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,000 thing? 239 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Does organic, is that really the 240 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,000 only way to go to maintain the 241 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,000 integrity of ecosystems in 242 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,000 coffee growing communities? 243 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,000 To answer this question or to 244 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,000 discuss it a little more 245 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,000 thoroughly, I'm going to look at 246 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,000 a case of certified growing in 247 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,000 central Peru, we're in the 248 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,000 department of Junin. 249 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000 "Department," maybe I should 250 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,000 have translated that, 251 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 and just put state. 252 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000 But department is equivalent 253 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000 to a state. 254 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,000 So in the state of Junin. 255 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,000 This is in central Peru. 256 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 If you can see on the coast of 257 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,000 Peru, here we've got this 258 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,000 different colored, this 259 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,000 geographic map here that shows 260 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,000 the Andes Mountains and then 261 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,000 coming down into the eastern 262 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,000 side of the Andes Mountains in 263 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,000 this lighter green area is where 264 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,000 that brow of the jungle, that 265 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,000 cloud forest area, and that's 266 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000 where most of coffee is produced 267 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,000 in Peru. 268 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,000 And this specific region of 269 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,000 central Peru is the coffee 270 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,000 growing region, the capital, the 271 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000 coffee capital of Peru. 272 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000 Coffee is also grown in the 273 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,000 south coming down from Cusco, 274 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,000 it's also grown in the north. 275 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,000 But the industry is the best 276 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 organized and the strongest and 277 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000 there's most production from 278 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000 central Peru and specifically 279 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000 this region. 280 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000 It's a beautiful region. 281 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,000 In fact, Brad took this photo 282 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,000 this summer as we were kind of 283 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,000 wandering through the area 284 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,000 visiting these different 285 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,000 growers. 286 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,000 In this area, two privates 287 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,000 companies got together and 288 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,000 decided to fund a coffee 289 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,000 development project. 290 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,000 The two companies were Lavazza, 291 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000 which is a large Italian 292 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,000 roaster, and Volcafe, which is a 293 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000 coffee and trading company, and 294 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,000 they had the goal of, a very 295 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000 broad goal, of improving the 296 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,000 economic and environmental 297 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000 sustainability of these 298 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,000 communities of small scale 299 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:07,000 coffee growers in several 300 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,000 communities in Junin. 301 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,000 One of the components of the 302 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,000 project focused on certifying 303 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,000 growers and integrating them 304 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000 into markets, export markets, 305 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000 that would pay premiums for that 306 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000 certification. 307 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,000 And the main certification that 308 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000 they've been working with is the 309 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000 Rainforest Alliance sustainable 310 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000 certification, but they've also 311 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,000 worked with the organic norms 312 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000 and with Utz Kapeh, and so it 313 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,000 provides a good case study of 314 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,000 comparing these different 315 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,000 platforms for growing coffee. 316 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,000 Now when we go to compare these 317 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,000 different certifications, 318 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,000 it's a bit tricky because 319 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,000 if you go, say, to the website 320 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,000 of one organic certifier, 321 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,000 there are several, 322 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,000 many certifiers, 323 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,000 and you look well what are the 324 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,000 norms that I would have to abide 325 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,000 by to be certified, and you 326 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,000 would find a document that would 327 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,000 look like something that a 328 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,000 lawyer wrote for other lawyers. 329 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,000 Very complicated language, 330 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,000 large document, many pages, and 331 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,000 growers don't read these 332 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,000 documents when they go to enter 333 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,000 certification programs. 334 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,000 There are extension agents, 335 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,000 either as part of a coffee 336 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,000 cooperative or in this case an 337 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,000 NGO, that try to translate these 338 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,000 norms into activities that 339 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,000 they're going to promote among 340 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,000 farmers, and they're going to 341 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000 say after kind of reading this 342 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,000 document and talking with this 343 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,000 certifier these are basically 344 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,000 the things that you need to do 345 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,000 in order to receive this 346 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,000 certification. 347 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000 And that's a little bit 348 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000 different from kind of taking 349 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,000 the document and analyzing it 350 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,000 from a legal perspective as 351 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,000 could you get away with this or 352 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,000 not. 353 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,000 And this comparison is based on 354 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000 not going to the document but 355 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,000 going to the extension agents 356 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,000 who work with the growers and 357 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,000 say what are the main 358 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,000 differences when you're 359 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,000 implementing the sustainable or 360 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,000 organic program. 361 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,000 I'll start first with the 362 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,000 sustainable. 363 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,000 The norms are very much applied 364 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,000 to the entire property. 365 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,000 So if you've only got coffee on 366 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,000 a corner and on a far other 367 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,000 corner you've got something else 368 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,000 going on, it doesn't matter, all 369 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,000 of that falls into the norms. 370 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000 And there is equal focus on all 371 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,000 of those areas. 372 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,000 It's not that we look at your 373 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,000 coffee and we kind of pay 374 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000 attention to the rest, but not 375 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,000 really. 376 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000 In the case of sustainable, it's 377 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000 very important, the entire 378 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,000 property. 379 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,000 No forbidden agrochemicals. 380 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,000 So some agrochemicals are 381 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 permitted. 382 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,000 There's a green colored band of 383 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,000 products that Rainforest had 384 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,000 said that these, when used 385 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,000 right, have no environmental 386 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,000 negative effects. 387 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,000 So of course a key word is used 388 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,000 right, so there's significant 389 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,000 standards that deal with how 390 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,000 those chemicals are applied, 391 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,000 where they're stored, do the 392 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000 people applying them know how to 393 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,000 apply them. 394 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,000 And then socially Rainforest 395 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,000 is pretty robust. 396 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,000 They want to make sure that the 397 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,000 coffee growing household has a 398 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,000 working latrine. 399 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,000 They want to make sure that 400 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,000 workers who come to work on that 401 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000 farm also have access to a 402 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,000 latrine. 403 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,000 For women in the household that 404 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,000 are working in the kitchen also 405 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,000 cooking over wood, there needs 406 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,000 to be a chimney. 407 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000 There needs to be good 408 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000 ventilation within the kitchen 409 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,000 so that the health of women is 410 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000 not being affected. 411 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Clean water, the household needs 412 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,000 to be getting potable water 413 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,000 into it. 414 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,000 Workers, if they're hiring in 415 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000 workers, there needs to be wage 416 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,000 policies and what to do if 417 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000 somebody gets sick. 418 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,000 There needs to be a formal 419 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,000 policy of what to do in 420 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,000 different situations. 421 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Waste water is a big deal and 422 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,000 improper treatment of it is a 423 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,000 sure way to not get the 424 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,000 certification. 425 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,000 And that's waste water that's 426 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,000 coming from processing coffee 427 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,000 but also waste water that's 428 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,000 coming from the house. 429 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Reforesting is a big issue. 430 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,000 If coffee on one corner and on 431 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,000 the far other corner, you've 432 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,000 clear cut that a couple years 433 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,000 ago and it's degraded, the 434 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,000 certifier's going to say we need 435 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,000 to come up with a reforestation 436 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,000 plan to recuperate or recover 437 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 that degraded area. 438 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000 And water sources, this is a big 439 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,000 deal, as coffee growing 440 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,000 households or coffee farms are 441 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,000 oftentimes located in the higher 442 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,000 reaches of watersheds, 443 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,000 Rainforest certifiers pay much 444 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,000 attention to nearby creeks and 445 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,000 is there erosion that's 446 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000 happening, is there proper 447 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,000 buffers to protect against 448 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,000 kind of heavy rains, 449 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000 or anything like that. 450 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,000 Now moving over to the organic 451 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,000 side, and again right now 452 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,000 I'm only talking about organic, 453 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000 not the joint organic fair trade 454 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,000 arrangement that is common 455 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,000 to see. 456 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,000 The norms are primarily focused 457 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,000 on the crop that's being 458 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,000 certified. 459 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,000 The other crops also fall into, 460 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,000 the norms apply to the other 461 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,000 crops. 462 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,000 But it varies a bit. 463 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,000 You can have a conventional 464 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,000 field nearby and you have plans 465 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,000 to eventually convert it to 466 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,000 organic and that needs to be 467 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 explicit, but the focus is on 468 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000 if we're going to certify your 469 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,000 coffee this year, that this 470 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,000 coffee is free of agrochemicals 471 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,000 which is the second issue here. 472 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,000 And then the third issue, and 473 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,000 this is really, I think, a core 474 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,000 aspect of the organic 475 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,000 certification, and that is 476 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,000 contamination of foreign 477 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,000 materials either from other 478 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,000 activities on the farm or from 479 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,000 neighboring farms. 480 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,000 There's a transition period 481 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000 between when I enter an organic 482 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,000 program and when I can start 483 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,000 selling my coffee as certified 484 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,000 organic. 485 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,000 Again this is dealing with the 486 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,000 idea that if you've applied 487 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,000 agrochemicals in the past, 488 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,000 we want to give time for them 489 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,000 to be processed through the soil 490 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,000 and to disappear before we're 491 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,000 going to allow you 492 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000 to sell your coffee as organic. 493 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Traceability is also a big 494 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 issue. 495 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,000 When the coffee leaves your 496 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,000 field, where is it being stored 497 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,000 when it's harvested, 498 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000 and on the farm. 499 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Is that a clean environment? 500 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,000 When it goes to a processing 501 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,000 plant, what treatment is it 502 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,000 getting there? 503 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,000 So I think it comes out clear 504 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,000 that a big focus is kind of 505 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,000 keeping coffee clean, keeping it 506 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,000 from being contaminated by other 507 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,000 sources. 508 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,000 Whereas with the sustainable, 509 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000 it's a much broader set of goals 510 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,000 and standards. 511 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,000 The entire property, 512 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000 reforesting. 513 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,000 And it's not that the organic 514 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,000 and the norms doesn't mention 515 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 not cutting down forests and 516 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000 these other issues, but again, 517 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,000 this is coming from people who 518 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,000 work with, translate those 519 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,000 complicated documents into 520 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,000 advice, recommendations for the 521 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,000 farmers what want to get 522 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,000 certified. 523 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,000 What is it that you most need to 524 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,000 pay attention to for the 525 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,000 certifier at the end of the day 526 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,000 to say okay, looks good enough 527 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,000 or it fulfills the most critical 528 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000 requirements for certification. 529 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000 Because the sustainable norms 530 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 are much broader, they can serve 531 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,000 as a base for then launching 532 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,000 into an organic program, with 533 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,000 the only exception being that if 534 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,000 you're applying the permitted 535 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,000 agrochemicals under the 536 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,000 sustainable, you would have to 537 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,000 change that to go organic. 538 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,000 It would be much more difficult 539 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,000 to be certified organic and then 540 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,000 expect that you would just need 541 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 to do some paper work to get the 542 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,000 sustainable certification. 543 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,000 Most likely you wouldn't be 544 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,000 treating the waste water from, 545 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,000 or in the case of this group of 546 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,000 growers in central Peru, you 547 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,000 wouldn't be treating the waste 548 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000 water from the house. 549 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,000 You wouldn't have a chimney. 550 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000 May or may not have 551 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 an acceptable latrine. 552 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,000 So there would be a lot of 553 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,000 things that you would need to do 554 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,000 to go from organic to 555 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,000 sustainable. 556 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,000 But not so much the other way 557 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000 around. 558 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,000 What are some of the possible 559 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000 issues that extension agents and 560 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,000 people working on the ground and 561 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,000 agronomists have noticed with 562 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,000 the organic norms? 563 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,000 One concern is that the amount 564 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,000 of organic fertilizer that's 565 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,000 available at any given time or 566 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,000 when the farmers need it, 567 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,000 is oftentimes very limited 568 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,000 or costly. 569 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 And so farmers, oftentimes, are 570 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,000 not appropriately or providing 571 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,000 enough fertilizer to replace the 572 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,000 nutrients that are being taken 573 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000 out from the plant. 574 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,000 And so you have this what's been 575 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,000 known as soil mining where over 576 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,000 time, the rate at which 577 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 nutrients are being taken out 578 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000 is exceeding the rate 579 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,000 at which those nutrients 580 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,000 are being replaced. 581 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,000 And one reason is that organic 582 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,000 fertilizer, for example, the 583 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,000 pulp that comes from processing 584 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,000 the coffee cherries, that's used 585 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,000 as an organic fertilizer, that's 586 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000 not the same as getting a 587 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000 synthetic pellet that has just 588 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000 the right mix of nitrogen, 589 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,000 phosphorous and potassium. 590 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,000 This is a much more specific 591 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,000 targeted input. 592 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,000 Whereas with the pulp, there's 593 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,000 organic material there and 594 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000 there's some nitrogen, but is it 595 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,000 enough, is it in the right mixes 596 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,000 so that it's going to be 597 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,000 efficiently utilized by the 598 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,000 plant? 599 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,000 Probably not. 600 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,000 And then this issue, 601 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000 substituting herbicides with 602 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,000 other capital inputs, came up 603 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,000 when I was visiting a farmer in 604 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Peru this summer and he had 605 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,000 bought a weed whacker to deal 606 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,000 with the weeds that would grow 607 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,000 up, and this is a major task for 608 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000 coffee growers to keep their 609 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000 fields clean. 610 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000 And so instead of applying a 611 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,000 herbicide, which would break 612 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,000 down in the soil and which would 613 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000 keep the ground free of weeds, 614 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,000 he was going through with his 615 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000 weed whacker every now and then. 616 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000 And I'm thinking well I'm not 617 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000 convinced that we've come out 618 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,000 ahead with this, because that 619 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000 weed whacker is using, it's not 620 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 very clean, there's certainly 621 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 noise pollution associated with 622 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,000 it. 623 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,000 It doesn't do as good a job 624 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,000 as the herbicide would. 625 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000 So are we better off 626 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000 environmentally? 627 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,000 And that's a question I want to 628 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,000 leave you with and that's a 629 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,000 question that needs a lot of 630 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000 research that has not been done 631 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000 in a thorough, rigorous way. 632 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000 And that is, given these 633 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,000 different norms, what type of 634 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,000 environmental outcomes 635 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,000 are we seeing? 636 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000 And this is a point that I want 637 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,000 to hit on more in the 638 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,000 conclusion, and that is, 639 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,000 it's not enough just to say 640 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,000 we've certified growers, we've 641 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,000 certified so many growers in the 642 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,000 head waters of the Amazon so 643 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,000 we're protecting the ecosystem. 644 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,000 Well, I want to know, 645 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000 well what's changed? 646 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,000 If before they weren't certified 647 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,000 and now they are, does that mean 648 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,000 that we could go and see that 649 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,000 the quality of the water that's 650 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,000 coming out of those watersheds 651 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,000 is better? 652 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Does that mean that there's more 653 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 bird species because of the 654 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,000 shade cover? 655 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,000 I want to see some quantitative 656 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,000 evidence that there's 657 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,000 improvements as opposed to just 658 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000 saying, well, they're certified 659 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,000 so we know everything's okay. 660 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,000 This is a picture that I think 661 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,000 this is the only time Brad's 662 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,000 going to appear in this 663 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,000 presentation. 664 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,000 Here he is, we're meeting with a 665 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,000 grower that is under the 666 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,000 sustainable group or working 667 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,000 with the sustainable 668 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,000 certification in Peru. 669 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000 And this is a what it says here 670 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,000 in Spanish is a biological 671 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,000 micro-corridor conservation of a 672 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,000 water resource. 673 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,000 Now this is a creek that runs 674 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,000 along the side of this 675 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000 gentleman's property, and you 676 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000 can see that there's quite a bit 677 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,000 of vegetation here. 678 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,000 And that wasn't the case a 679 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:36,000 couple of years ago. 680 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,000 And this is a change that's been 681 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,000 brought about because the 682 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000 certifier says you have a 683 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,000 waterway over there, we need to 684 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,000 see that that buffer zone around 685 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,000 it is there and is protecting. 686 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,000 And also, for example, the steps 687 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,000 going up from across the creek 688 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000 and then up over the hill are 689 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,000 terraced. 690 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,000 Before, without those there, you 691 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000 get a heavy rain and that water 692 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,000 has nothing to slow it down and 693 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000 it's going to carve a big ravine 694 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,000 right down into the creek. 695 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,000 So that would be something else 696 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,000 that he would probably do 697 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,000 as part of fulfilling 698 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,000 the sustainable norms. 699 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,000 Uh-oh, I'm cut off 700 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,000 up at the top. 701 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,000 Anyway, so that's a very broad 702 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,000 brush picture of the organic, 703 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,000 sustainable or other 704 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,000 certifications issued. 705 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,000 And I think the thing to keep in 706 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000 mind is that it's not clear that 707 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,000 organic is promoting 708 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000 environmental sustainability 709 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,000 better than alternative 710 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000 programs. 711 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,000 And that's really something that 712 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,000 needs to be researched better. 713 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000 Because there certainly are 714 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000 alternatives that may be doing a 715 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000 better job. 716 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000 We're not sure. 717 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Moving on to the economic side. 718 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,000 What do growers get out of 719 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000 participating in these certified 720 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,000 programs? 721 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,000 So you have to not use 722 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,000 agrochemicals or maybe you have 723 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,000 to put a chimney in, or do 724 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,000 any number of things, how is 725 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,000 that fitting in to your overall 726 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,000 economic well-being? 727 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,000 To look at this for the case of 728 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000 fair trade organic markets, 729 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000 we're going to southern Mexico. 730 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,000 Southern Mexico is a region 731 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,000 that's been at the forefront of 732 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,000 the growth and fair trade and 733 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000 organic markets from the 734 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,000 beginning. 735 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000 We're using information from a 736 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,000 survey of 845 coffee growing 737 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,000 households randomly selected 738 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,000 from Oaxaca and Chiapas, these 739 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000 are two states in southern 740 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,000 Mexico. 741 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,000 The data collection was 742 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,000 supported by the Rockefeller 743 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,000 Foundation. 744 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,000 In this data set, if you're 745 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,000 participating in fair trade, you 746 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,000 generally are also participating 747 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,000 in organic markets and you are 748 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000 also a member of a cooperative. 749 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,000 So these three kind of concepts 750 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,000 are merged together in the case 751 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,000 of southern Mexico. 752 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,000 We have in the sample 753 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000 357 conventional growers. 754 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,000 These are growers who are 755 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,000 generally not a part of a 756 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,000 cooperative, they're not a part 757 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,000 of fair trade organic. 758 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,000 And then within fair trade, 759 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,000 we have 417 organic, this is 760 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,000 they've passed that transition 761 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,000 period, generally three years, 762 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000 and now can sell their coffee 763 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,000 as certified organic. 764 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,000 And then there's 71 growers who 765 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,000 are in transition to receiving 766 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000 organic certification. 767 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,000 And again, both of these groups 768 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,000 would be working under the fair 769 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,000 trade, working with fair trade 770 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,000 arrangements. 771 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,000 To give you a sense of 772 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000 the economic contents of these 773 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000 households, the percents on the 774 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,000 outside of the circle represent 775 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,000 the number of households that 776 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,000 are deriving some income from 777 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,000 that income source. 778 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000 For example, 96% of households 779 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,000 have some positive income from 780 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,000 coffee. 781 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Which isn't surprising because 782 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,000 we're sampling coffee growing 783 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,000 households. 784 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,000 About a third of households are 785 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,000 having remittances. 786 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,000 They're participating in this 787 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,000 exodus of labor northwards, 788 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,000 sending a family member there 789 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,000 and getting remittances in 790 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,000 return. 791 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,000 Subsidies are also something 792 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,000 that's prevalent for many 793 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,000 households, as well as 794 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000 nonagricultural activities. 795 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000 This would be working for a wage 796 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000 in a local job. 797 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,000 Now the inside percents 798 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,000 in the distribution of the pie 799 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000 represents how important, 800 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,000 for the average household, 801 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,000 is that income source. 802 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,000 So we see here remittances are 803 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,000 by far what dominate the incomes 804 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,000 for these households. 805 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,000 Which is interesting because 806 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,000 there are only 35% of the 807 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,000 households that are getting any 808 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,000 remittance. 809 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,000 So that means those households 810 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000 that are getting remittances 811 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000 are getting quite a bit. 812 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,000 And then next we have subsidies, 813 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,000 these would be several kind of 814 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000 support programs for coffee 815 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,000 growers that the Mexican 816 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,000 government has and that's on par 817 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000 with the amount of actual income 818 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000 that coffee growers make 819 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,000 by growing and selling coffee. 820 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,000 And then just behind is 821 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,000 nonagricultural activities. 822 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,000 So a point that I want to drive 823 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,000 home is that these households 824 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,000 have a lot going on. 825 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,000 They're participating in 826 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,000 migration networks, they're 827 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,000 participating in government 828 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,000 programs, they're participating 829 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,000 in the non-coffee local economy. 830 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,000 And I'm going to later contrast 831 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,000 this with the case of central 832 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,000 Peru. 833 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000 How much are these growers 834 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,000 earning from coffee? 835 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,000 So if we look at what's the 836 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,000 average net revenue, this is 837 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,000 their total sales of coffee 838 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,000 minus their cash costs, that 839 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,000 would be either for hired labor 840 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 or for any purchased inputs. 841 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,000 If we break that down by 842 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,000 certification status, we see 843 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,000 that these conventional growers, 844 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,000 things are not going well 845 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,000 for them. 846 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Certainly in comparison to the 847 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,000 transition growers who have more 848 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,000 than double the net revenue of 849 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,000 conventional growers per 850 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,000 hectare. 851 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,000 And then organic growers are 852 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,000 slightly behind the transition 853 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,000 growers. 854 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,000 What's driving these 855 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,000 differences? 856 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,000 This is a big question because 857 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,000 if we think about why are some 858 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000 coffee growing households poor, 859 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,000 and some less poor, 860 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000 or maybe doing all right, 861 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,000 we've got to understand 862 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,000 where these differences 863 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,000 are coming from. 864 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Are they coming from the prices 865 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,000 that these growers are receiving 866 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000 for their coffee? 867 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,000 Or are they coming from how much 868 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,000 coffee that household is able to 869 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,000 produce on their given land 870 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,000 with their given plants? 871 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,000 If we look at prices received 872 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,000 we see, as we would expect, that 873 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000 the conventional are getting 874 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,000 slightly lower prices than the 875 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,000 transition who have access to 876 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,000 the fair trade but cannot yet 877 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,000 sell their coffee as organic. 878 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,000 And they're not doing as well 879 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,000 as the organic, which can sell 880 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,000 their coffee with fair trade 881 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,000 certification and with the 882 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000 organic certification. 883 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,000 So the differences are about, 884 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,000 we've got 67 cents 885 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,000 for the conventional, 886 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,000 about 78 cents, 887 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,000 and then about 83 cents 888 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,000 for the organic growers. 889 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,000 Productivity. 890 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000 This is how many kilograms of 891 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,000 coffee these growers are getting 892 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,000 out of their land. 893 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,000 The conventional growers 894 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,000 are lagging far behind. 895 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,000 They're only about 175 kilos 896 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,000 per hectare. 897 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,000 And the transition growers have 898 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,000 about twice that and then the 899 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,000 organics again are a little bit 900 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,000 behind that. 901 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,000 A key question, as I mentioned 902 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,000 before, what is causing these 903 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,000 productivity differences? 904 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,000 Is this because the organic 905 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,000 norms, there's something about 906 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,000 them that raises the 907 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,000 productivity of coffee growers? 908 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,000 Or perhaps, the type of growers 909 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,000 who decide to go organic and 910 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,000 participate in cooperatives, 911 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,000 they had higher productivity 912 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000 beforehand, that's the type of 913 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,000 growers, and so then higher 914 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,000 productivity growers are the 915 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000 ones who select into the organic 916 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000 and fair trade markets. 917 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,000 So in other words, the organic 918 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,000 and fair trade markets are 919 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,000 drawing in the more progressive, 920 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,000 more productive farmers. 921 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,000 We're not sure. 922 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000 In other words, we can't say 923 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,000 that participating in a 924 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000 cooperative or participating in 925 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000 organic fair trade causes 926 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 increases in productivity. 927 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,000 All we can really say is that 928 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000 this productivity difference 929 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000 exists, and the point that this 930 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,000 next slide makes, it's what's 931 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,000 causing differences, most of the 932 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,000 differences, in income among 933 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,000 groups of growers. 934 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,000 This is a thought experiment to 935 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,000 help drive that point home. 936 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,000 Conventional coffee grower 937 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,000 net revenue on average 938 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,000 is about $203. 939 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,000 If we keep everything else the 940 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,000 same and we just say 941 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,000 conventional grower we're going 942 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,000 to give you the price that a 943 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000 transitional grower receives, 944 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,000 how much will your net revenue 945 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000 per hectare increase? 946 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,000 And it's going to increase 947 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,000 to $247. 948 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,000 So yes, there's an income 949 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 increase associated with selling 950 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,000 to fair trade. 951 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,000 That's clear. 952 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000 But let's say now we give you 953 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,000 the conventional market price, 954 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,000 you as a conventional grower, 955 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,000 but we're going to give you the 956 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,000 productivity of a transition 957 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,000 grower. 958 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,000 Suddenly, still getting the 959 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,000 conventional price but getting 960 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,000 the productivity of a transition 961 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,000 grower, the income goes up 962 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,000 by up to $398. 963 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,000 Basically doubles their income. 964 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,000 Whereas it's only increasing it 965 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,000 by about 20% in the case of the 966 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,000 prices. 967 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,000 And then this is the actual 968 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000 transition net revenue. 969 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000 So if we just gave them the same 970 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,000 productivity as the transition 971 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,000 group we would bring them pretty 972 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 close to making about the same 973 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,000 amount of money as the 974 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,000 transition growers. 975 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,000 If we go back to this question 976 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,000 of fair trade organic, 977 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,000 is this improving livelihoods 978 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,000 in southern Mexico? 979 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,000 It's difficult to say because 980 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,000 we're not sure if that's the 981 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,000 cause of these productivity 982 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,000 differences. 983 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,000 But what we can say is that 984 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,000 coffee is really just one 985 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,000 activity in the mix of several 986 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000 that these households are 987 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,000 pursuing. 988 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000 Including migration networks and 989 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,000 getting remittances, subsidies 990 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,000 and non-ag income. 991 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,000 We can also say that the higher 992 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,000 prices from fair trade and 993 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,000 organic markets, which is 994 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,000 something you often hear about 995 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,000 in the popular press, getting 996 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,000 higher prices, getting a fair 997 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,000 price through fair trade, 998 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,000 is not having that big 999 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,000 of an effect on income. 1000 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,000 Or at least it's not having 1001 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,000 nearly as big of an effect 1002 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,000 as productivity is having. 1003 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,000 But an important question is how 1004 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000 generalizable are these results? 1005 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000 Do we observe this finding 1006 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,000 that the productivity effect 1007 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,000 dominates the income effect 1008 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,000 from certification premiums? 1009 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Do we see that 1010 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,000 in other countries? 1011 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,000 And to answer that question 1012 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,000 we're going to dive now, we're 1013 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,000 going to return to central Peru, 1014 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,000 where in the sample of growers 1015 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000 that we're looking at, 1016 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,000 they had, this is pounds 1017 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,000 of coffee per hectare. 1018 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,000 So the top row is for our sample 1019 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,000 of about 200 growers, how many 1020 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,000 pounds of coffee were they 1021 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000 producing per hectare? 1022 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,000 And this is for the state of 1023 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Junin, and the two match 1024 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,000 each other pretty well. 1025 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,000 And then here, we see our sample 1026 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,000 from Oaxaca, our sample from 1027 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,000 Chiapas, and then later what are 1028 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000 the state numbers for those 1029 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,000 areas. 1030 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,000 And it should stand out right 1031 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,000 away that both the department of 1032 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,000 Junin and the growers in our 1033 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,000 sample have doubled the 1034 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,000 productivity of growers 1035 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,000 from the Mexico sample. 1036 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000 And the Chiapas growers are 1037 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,000 under the average for their 1038 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000 state, whereas the growers from 1039 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,000 Oaxaca are about on par. 1040 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,000 Now if we go forward in time, 1041 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,000 that's in 2005 when the Mexico 1042 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,000 data was collected, if we go 1043 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,000 forward in time, we don't have 1044 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,000 data for 2008 from these 1045 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,000 specific growers in Mexico, 1046 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,000 but we do have from those states 1047 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,000 and we can see that Junin and 1048 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000 the Peruvian sample is now 1049 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,000 four times, in the case of 1050 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Oaxaca versus central Peru, 1051 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,000 central Peru is growing four 1052 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000 times the amount of coffee for 1053 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,000 the same amount of land. 1054 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,000 And if we compare from 2008 to 1055 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,000 2005 in different places, 1056 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,000 the differences are striking. 1057 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,000 And those circles draw that out. 1058 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000 So now let's take a little more 1059 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,000 detailed look at these different 1060 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,000 growers and different countries. 1061 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,000 So here in this column 1062 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,000 we're looking at 1063 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,000 just the organic growers. 1064 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Now these are organic and also 1065 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,000 fair trade growers because 1066 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,000 the two are joined together 1067 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,000 in the case of southern Mexico. 1068 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,000 And then these are the 1069 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,000 sustainable growers in Peru. 1070 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,000 Sustainable growers are a little 1071 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,000 bigger, that's not super 1072 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,000 interesting. 1073 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,000 This is an interesting 1074 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,000 statistic. 1075 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,000 The coffee growers, the organic 1076 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,000 coffee growers in Mexico are 1077 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,000 only getting about a third of 1078 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,000 their income from coffee. 1079 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000 Again, it's just one activity 1080 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,000 in the mix of many. 1081 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,000 In the case of the Peru, they're 1082 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,000 getting most of their income 1083 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,000 from coffee. 1084 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,000 Coffee is what determines what 1085 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,000 they can consume in a year. 1086 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,000 Now, let's take a look at 1087 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,000 incomes. 1088 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,000 In terms of productivity, we're 1089 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000 seeing that growers in Mexico in 1090 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,000 2005, organic growers, have a 1091 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,000 much lower productivity than the 1092 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,000 sustainable growers in Peru. 1093 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Sustainable growers in Peru have 1094 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,000 about four times that 1095 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,000 of the organic growers. 1096 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,000 Correspondingly, growers in Peru 1097 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,000 have about four times the net 1098 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,000 revenue per hectare as 1099 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,000 the organic growers in Mexico. 1100 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,000 So this is consistent with our 1101 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,000 comparisons between transition 1102 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,000 and organic growers in 1103 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,000 conventional grower incomes, and 1104 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,000 we're finding that really it's 1105 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,000 about productivity, that's 1106 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,000 what's driving differences 1107 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,000 in net revenues. 1108 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,000 And when we compare between the 1109 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,000 organic growers in Mexico 1110 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,000 and the growers in Peru 1111 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,000 we also find that. 1112 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,000 That the differences in income 1113 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,000 between these groups is 1114 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,000 an artifact of how much coffee 1115 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,000 they're able to get 1116 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,000 out of a given amount of land. 1117 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,000 How much are these growers in 1118 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,000 Peru, how much of their increase 1119 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000 in revenue comes from getting a 1120 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,000 premium for being certified? 1121 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000 Here we see this is the premium 1122 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,000 in US dollars per pound in 2007 1123 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,000 and 2008 for growers that sold 1124 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,000 to their cooperative in the 1125 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,000 project. 1126 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,000 It's about 7-cents in 2007 1127 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,000 and about half that in 2008. 1128 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,000 And that translated in 2007 1129 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,000 about an additional $147 1130 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,000 in income for those growers. 1131 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,000 But that additional, that 1132 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,000 increase in income from selling 1133 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,000 to a higher valued market 1134 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,000 per hectare was pretty small and 1135 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,000 really only represents about 3% 1136 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,000 of the net revenue per hectare. 1137 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,000 So it's really not about prices. 1138 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,000 At least for these growers. 1139 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And it seems to be the case 1140 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,000 in Mexico as well. 1141 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,000 That it's not prices that drive 1142 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,000 the differences in income, 1143 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,000 it's productivity. 1144 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,000 And productivity is something 1145 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,000 that this project in central 1146 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,000 Peru focused on. 1147 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,000 The project, Proyecto Teirra, 1148 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,000 Project Land, 1149 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,000 didn't just focus on, we want 1150 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,000 to certify you to get a higher 1151 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,000 price and that will solve your 1152 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,000 livelihood issues. 1153 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,000 They also said you know what, 1154 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,000 it's really important that these 1155 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,000 farmers are managing their 1156 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,000 resources well, that they're 1157 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,000 getting the most out of their 1158 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,000 plants, that they're keeping 1159 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,000 track of their costs, keeping 1160 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,000 track of productivity and 1161 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000 managing it like a business. 1162 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,000 And one practice that they 1163 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,000 introduced to further these 1164 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,000 goals was systematic pruning. 1165 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,000 This is where a grower 1166 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 cuts his tree off, 1167 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,000 now a coffee tree can grow 1168 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,000 up about-- 1169 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,000 If you let it go, it can grow 1170 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,000 quite tall. 1171 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,000 And he cuts it off 1172 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,000 at about a meter in height 1173 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,000 or about waist height, 1174 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,000 and he does that to a section of 1175 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,000 his farm each year in a rotating 1176 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000 fashion. 1177 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,000 And the idea is that you can 1178 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,000 stabilize production 1179 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,000 through that practice. 1180 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,000 Stabilize and increase because 1181 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000 when you prune the plant 1182 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,000 it stimulates the plant to fill 1183 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,000 out, to produce more branches 1184 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,000 and leaves from which then 1185 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,000 lots of berries come forth. 1186 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000 And this is very important 1187 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,000 because the growers in central 1188 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,000 Peru, they had older trees. 1189 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000 And as trees get older, their 1190 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000 productivity drops dramatically. 1191 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,000 Systematic pruning, in effect, 1192 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,000 gets an older plant to produce 1193 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,000 like a new one. 1194 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,000 But growers, before I get into 1195 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,000 this, the growers in this 1196 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,000 project were initially 1197 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,000 very skeptical of this idea. 1198 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,000 They're deriving their 1199 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,000 livelihoods, most of their 1200 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,000 income, as I showed before, is 1201 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,000 coming from coffee growing. 1202 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,000 What happens if I cut my plants 1203 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,000 down? 1204 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,000 This is ludicrous they said. 1205 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,000 In one case, the agronomist in 1206 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,000 the project came into a 1207 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,000 community and said we're going 1208 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,000 to cut your plants down and they 1209 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,000 kicked him out. 1210 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,000 They wouldn't let him finish the 1211 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,000 meeting. 1212 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,000 They said this is crazy. 1213 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,000 In another case, it's a great 1214 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,000 story that some growers like to 1215 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,000 tell, is that there was one guy 1216 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,000 who was thinking this might 1217 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000 work. 1218 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,000 He was thinking about it. 1219 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,000 And his wife said if you cut our 1220 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,000 plants down I am leaving you. 1221 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,000 You do not touch our plants. 1222 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,000 And I think that gives you the 1223 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,000 sense these are households that 1224 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,000 are dependent on coffee, this 1225 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,000 idea seemed very risky. 1226 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,000 You're cutting your plant down. 1227 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,000 And, in fact, you don't get 1228 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,000 production from the plant in the 1229 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,000 following year, it's only 1230 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,000 in the year afterwards 1231 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,000 when it comes back. 1232 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,000 So there is that year in which 1233 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,000 if you don't have much savings 1234 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,000 to go on maybe you can't make 1235 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,000 that jump; maybe you can't deal 1236 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:43,000 with that short drop in income. 1237 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,000 How much production or how does 1238 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,000 the pruning affect yields? 1239 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,000 This is just a statistical 1240 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,000 exercise that I did where I 1241 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,000 looked at changes in yield, 1242 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,000 that's kilograms of coffee per 1243 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,000 hectare, between 2008 and 2009, 1244 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,000 controlling for what your change 1245 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,000 in yields were last year and 1246 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,000 then whether or not you pruned 1247 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,000 in 2006, 2007 and 2008. 1248 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,000 The way to interpret these 1249 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,000 numbers is that if I pruned in 1250 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,000 2006 and then didn't do anything 1251 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,000 in the following years, the 1252 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,000 immediate effect is to decrease 1253 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,000 my production, I'm taking that 1254 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000 plant out of production. 1255 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,000 But then the following year I'm 1256 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,000 going to get some of it back, 1257 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,000 in fact most of it back. 1258 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,000 And in the year afterwards 1259 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,000 I'm going to get it back 1260 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,000 in a big way, 1261 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,000 about 865 kilogram increase 1262 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,000 is what's associated with that. 1263 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,000 So the key note here is that 1264 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,000 this is a method that although 1265 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,000 it lowers production initially, 1266 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,000 it brings it back in a big way. 1267 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,000 So I think one of the 1268 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000 conclusions that we can draw 1269 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000 or perhaps a better way to say 1270 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,000 that is one thing that these 1271 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,000 observations suggest is that 1272 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,000 environmentally sound 1273 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,000 alternatives to organic may 1274 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,000 exist. 1275 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,000 In fact, there may be 1276 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,000 environmentally superior methods 1277 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,000 but that this really needs more 1278 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,000 evaluation of connecting 1279 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,000 specific practices 1280 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,000 with outcomes. 1281 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,000 If farmers aren't allowed to use 1282 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,000 herbicides or they're not 1283 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,000 allowed to use synthetic 1284 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,000 fertilizers, does soil quality 1285 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,000 fall? 1286 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000 Does productivity fall? 1287 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,000 Is there contamination? 1288 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,000 Is there really negative effects 1289 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000 to using any type of 1290 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,000 agrochemical? 1291 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,000 Or is that perhaps a knee-jerk 1292 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,000 extreme reaction to synthetic 1293 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,000 inputs in general? 1294 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,000 It comes out pretty clear. 1295 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,000 On this side, I think that's 1296 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,000 where Brad and I have the least 1297 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,000 concrete information to go on. 1298 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,000 But this is a conclusion that we 1299 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,000 can stand behind quite firmly, 1300 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,000 and that is the effect of 1301 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,000 productivity on income dominates 1302 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,000 the effect of higher prices on 1303 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,000 income. 1304 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,000 And now this is a provocative 1305 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,000 point. 1306 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,000 A passive low-intensive 1307 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,000 management of crops, and you 1308 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,000 could think of having an organic 1309 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,000 system that's intense, but you 1310 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,000 could also think, and I think 1311 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,000 it's true for a lot of cases in 1312 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,000 Peru especially, that organic is 1313 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,000 associated with a passive 1314 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,000 management of the crop. 1315 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,000 No inputs or low inputs, 1316 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,000 some labor spent on cleaning, 1317 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,000 on weeding, but we're not going 1318 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,000 to buy fertilizers, we're not 1319 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,000 going to buy synthetic inputs, 1320 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,000 herbicides. 1321 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,000 That may have negative effects 1322 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:58,000 on both ecosystems 1323 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,000 and livelihoods. 1324 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,000 Why could that be? 1325 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,000 Why would one think that? 1326 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,000 Well, lower productivity means 1327 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,000 that there's less goods coming 1328 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,000 out on the market, less coffee 1329 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,000 on the market, that's going to 1330 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,000 raise the price of the final 1331 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,000 good, but it's also going to 1332 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,000 increase demand for the raw 1333 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,000 materials that go into making 1334 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,000 coffee, particularly land. 1335 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,000 If you have very low 1336 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,000 productivity, you're getting 1337 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,000 little coffee out of the land 1338 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,000 that you have, to produce a lot 1339 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,000 of coffee, you need a lot of 1340 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,000 land. 1341 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,000 So you bring more coffee land 1342 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,000 into production. 1343 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,000 So that's one mechanism 1344 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,000 through which the organic 1345 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,000 may have some negative 1346 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,000 environmental consequences. 1347 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,000 And if a household is getting 1348 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,000 very little coffee out of the 1349 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,000 hectares that they have, 1350 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,000 to reach some adequate income to 1351 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,000 meet their basic needs they may 1352 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,000 need to expand the scale of 1353 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,000 their operation. 1354 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,000 Again, bringing more land into 1355 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000 coffee production. 1356 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,000 Which, in the cases of, I don't 1357 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,000 think in the case of Peru, 1358 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,000 but in the case of Mexico, 1359 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,000 it may mean cutting down 1360 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,000 virgin forests or expanding 1361 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,000 into areas where coffee 1362 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,000 previously was not grown. 1363 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,000 What are some recommendations or 1364 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,000 some thoughts going forward for 1365 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:22,000 what people and organizations 1366 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,000 that are working with rural 1367 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,000 coffee growing communities 1368 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,000 should keep in mind? 1369 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,000 I think an important role that 1370 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,000 nongovernment organizations and 1371 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,000 cooperatives could play to 1372 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,000 increase incomes and 1373 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,000 livelihoods, improve 1374 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,000 livelihoods, is to perhaps shift 1375 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,000 their focus, in some cases 1376 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,000 obsession, on getting certified 1377 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,000 and getting a higher price to 1378 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:51,000 more on management, innovation, 1379 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,000 using the best practices, best 1380 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,000 agronomic practices, because I 1381 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:01,000 think currently that's something 1382 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000 that's been superseded by this 1383 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,000 obsession with let's get you 1384 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,000 certified and let's get you 1385 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000 selling, exporting, to a higher 1386 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,000 value market. 1387 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,000 And in some cases, cooperatives, 1388 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,000 their extension agencies are the 1389 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,000 people that work with their 1390 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,000 member growers have now been 1391 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,000 turned into agents of 1392 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,000 certification. 1393 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,000 All their time is spent taking 1394 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,000 the norms that are handed down 1395 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,000 from the certifier and going, 1396 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,000 running around and making sure 1397 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,000 that they can check off the 1398 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,000 boxes. 1399 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,000 And so they're not spending time 1400 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,000 thinking about what are better 1401 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,000 ways of producing, what are 1402 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000 agronomical practices that are 1403 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,000 going to raise productivity. 1404 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,000 Instead, they're thinking 1405 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,000 what do we need to get people 1406 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,000 to do, so that the certifier 1407 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,000 is going to say, okay 1408 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:58,000 he can sell to this market. 1409 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,000 This role for NGOs and 1410 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,000 cooperatives to improve the 1411 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,000 management of coffee farms, 1412 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,000 promote the best practices and 1413 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,000 in that way improve the 1414 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,000 livelihoods and the ecosystems 1415 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,000 of these areas could be critical 1416 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000 because, in Latin America 1417 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,000 especially, after the mid-'80s 1418 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,000 the state governments in these 1419 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,000 countries have really retreated 1420 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000 from extension services. 1421 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,000 So they've, in many cases, 1422 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,000 kind of let the especially 1423 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,000 smaller-scale farmer 1424 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,000 to face his fate by himself, and 1425 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,000 that these extension services 1426 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,000 that connect and spread 1427 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,000 innovations and best practices 1428 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,000 are not there anymore. 1429 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,000 And so there needs to be some 1430 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,000 vehicle or agents in the rural 1431 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,000 areas that are promoting these 1432 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,000 innovations that are going to 1433 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,000 allow for coffee growing 1434 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,000 households to get more out of 1435 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,000 the plants that they have, more 1436 00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,000 out of the land that they have 1437 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,000 and do so in a way that's not 1438 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,000 degrading to their ecosystems. 1439 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,000 Thank you. 1440 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,000 And I'm looking forward 1441 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,000 to questions. 1442 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,000 I'm sure you have many. 1443 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,000 ( applause )