WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:02.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:5% cc 00:02.000 --> 00:03.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> Norman Gilliland: Welcome to 00:03.000 --> 00:05.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% University Place. 00:05.133 --> 00:06.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% I'm Norman Gilliland, Wisconsin 00:06.166 --> 00:08.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% Public Broadcasting. 00:08.166 --> 00:10.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Prohibition gave many Americans, 00:10.666 --> 00:12.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% otherwise law-abiding people, 00:12.600 --> 00:14.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% the idea that breaking the law 00:14.866 --> 00:17.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% could be fun. 00:17.166 --> 00:19.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And if the crime was really big, 00:19.733 --> 00:21.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% well, the bigger the thrill. 00:21.866 --> 00:23.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% If the crime was murder, well, 00:23.533 --> 00:24.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% you couldn't get much more 00:24.633 --> 00:25.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% thrilling than that. 00:25.900 --> 00:27.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And one of the best ways to 00:27.300 --> 00:30.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% commit murder in the 1920s was 00:30.033 --> 00:32.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% to use poison, partly because 00:32.333 --> 00:34.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% there was so much poison in 00:34.100 --> 00:36.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% everyday life, anyhow. 00:36.033 --> 00:38.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% So how could the law determine 00:38.133 --> 00:40.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% what was an accident and what 00:40.866 --> 00:42.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% was murder, if poison was 00:42.533 --> 00:44.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% involved? 00:44.800 --> 00:46.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Well, our guest will tell us. 00:46.333 --> 00:49.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% She's Deborah Blum, professor of 00:49.300 --> 00:50.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% science journalism at the 00:50.533 --> 00:51.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% University of Wisconsin-Madison 00:51.900 --> 00:52.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% and the author of 00:52.933 --> 00:55.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% "The Poisoner's Handbook: 00:55.000 --> 00:56.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% Murder and the Birth 00:56.200 --> 00:58.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% of Forensic Medicine 00:58.533 --> 01:00.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% in Jazz Age New York." 01:00.966 --> 01:02.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% Glad to have you 01:02.400 --> 01:03.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% on University Place. 01:03.566 --> 01:04.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> Deborah Blum: Thanks 01:04.533 --> 01:05.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% for having me. 01:05.500 --> 01:06.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> I'm sure we'll get some 01:06.366 --> 01:07.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% secrets here that probably 01:07.866 --> 01:09.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% should stay here rather than be 01:09.800 --> 01:11.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% put into use in the home. 01:11.933 --> 01:13.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> I try not to give, like, 01:13.133 --> 01:14.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% murder instructions when I'm 01:14.600 --> 01:15.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% talking about the book. 01:15.833 --> 01:17.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% (both laugh) 01:17.066 --> 01:18.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% >> Well, we start with 01:18.866 --> 01:20.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% this fantastic cauldron of 01:20.733 --> 01:22.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% activity, the 1920s, the Jazz 01:22.133 --> 01:25.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Age and science really taking 01:25.033 --> 01:27.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% off more than ever, and crime 01:27.066 --> 01:29.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% doing likewise. 01:29.933 --> 01:31.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And criminals, perhaps, becoming 01:31.300 --> 01:32.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% even more scientific in their 01:32.666 --> 01:33.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% methods. 01:33.733 --> 01:36.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% So did the law manage to keep up 01:36.866 --> 01:38.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% with the criminals when it came 01:38.100 --> 01:40.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% to poison in Jazz Age New York? 01:40.133 --> 01:41.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> Well, at the start they 01:41.200 --> 01:42.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% really didn't. 01:42.533 --> 01:45.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% There was not a good 01:45.633 --> 01:47.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% relationship between scientists 01:47.466 --> 01:48.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% and the police. 01:48.700 --> 01:50.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They weren't used to using them. 01:50.433 --> 01:51.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% The city of New York in 01:51.400 --> 01:52.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% particular had not had 01:52.400 --> 01:54.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% professional scientists really 01:54.900 --> 01:56.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% looking at poisons, so at the 01:56.500 --> 01:58.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% start of the Jazz Age, this 01:58.833 --> 02:00.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% really interesting situation 02:00.933 --> 02:02.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% where scientists are trying to 02:02.700 --> 02:04.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% figure out how to integrate 02:04.166 --> 02:05.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% themselves into the criminal 02:05.133 --> 02:06.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% justice system. 02:06.700 --> 02:08.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% There isn't a good sort of 02:08.333 --> 02:10.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% foundation of chemistry to 02:10.166 --> 02:12.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% understand poisons. 02:12.666 --> 02:14.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And poisoners are really just 02:14.066 --> 02:16.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% one step ahead of the game when 02:16.766 --> 02:18.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% the Jazz Age starts. 02:18.466 --> 02:19.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% It makes it a very interesting 02:19.566 --> 02:21.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% period. 02:21.100 --> 02:22.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> So what were some of the 02:22.033 --> 02:23.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% poisons that were out there? 02:23.733 --> 02:25.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And first, before we even get to 02:25.366 --> 02:27.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% that, who were some of the 02:27.133 --> 02:29.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% sleuths working for the side of 02:29.500 --> 02:31.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% goodness and truth? 02:31.400 --> 02:32.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> It's kind of fantastic when 02:32.466 --> 02:34.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% you look at the period because 02:34.033 --> 02:37.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% it was so easy to get poisons. 02:37.200 --> 02:38.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% You could go, even a child could 02:38.800 --> 02:40.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% go to a grocery store and get 02:40.166 --> 02:41.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% arsenic. 02:41.366 --> 02:42.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% It was in all kinds of regularly 02:42.900 --> 02:44.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% used household ingredients, from 02:44.900 --> 02:48.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% cosmetics to rat poison. 02:48.233 --> 02:50.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Mercury was in common medicines, 02:50.633 --> 02:51.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% again, and mercury is a 02:51.766 --> 02:54.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% tremendous poison. 02:54.666 --> 02:56.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% Radioactive materials were 02:56.333 --> 02:58.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% available in makeup and health 02:58.400 --> 03:00.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% drinks. 03:00.100 --> 03:01.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% I'm trying to think of another 03:01.366 --> 03:02.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% really good one. 03:02.766 --> 03:03.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% Poisons were everywhere. 03:03.966 --> 03:06.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Cyanide was used commonly in 03:06.033 --> 03:08.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% photo processing and strychnine 03:08.600 --> 03:10.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% was used as a stimulant, so if 03:10.133 --> 03:11.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% you really wanted to get your 03:11.433 --> 03:12.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% hands on a poison, they were 03:12.966 --> 03:14.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% right there. 03:14.266 --> 03:15.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And the book, "The Poisoner's 03:15.566 --> 03:18.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Handbook," really follows the 03:18.000 --> 03:19.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% efforts of two scientists in 03:19.533 --> 03:21.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% particular to try to get a 03:21.500 --> 03:24.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% handle on this and to get ahead 03:24.133 --> 03:25.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% of poisoners. 03:25.566 --> 03:26.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And one of them was Charles 03:26.733 --> 03:28.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% Norris, who was the first 03:28.533 --> 03:30.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% professional medical examiner in 03:30.166 --> 03:31.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% New York City. 03:31.600 --> 03:33.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% He came in in 1918. 03:33.433 --> 03:34.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And one of the first things he 03:34.633 --> 03:37.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% did was hire the first forensic 03:37.300 --> 03:39.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% chemist ever attached to a city 03:39.300 --> 03:40.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% in the United States. 03:40.866 --> 03:41.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And his name was Alexander 03:41.900 --> 03:42.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% Gettler. 03:42.933 --> 03:44.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> Was this an uphill struggle? 03:44.100 --> 03:45.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% Was this considered a 03:45.133 --> 03:47.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% newfangled, expensive, 03:47.066 --> 03:48.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% speculative form of crime 03:48.466 --> 03:49.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% busting? 03:49.533 --> 03:51.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> It was an incredible uphill 03:51.466 --> 03:52.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% struggle. 03:52.600 --> 03:54.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And in fact, when Norris came 03:54.533 --> 03:56.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% in, New York and actually most 03:56.400 --> 03:58.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% cities had an electoral 03:58.800 --> 04:00.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% appointed coroner system. 04:00.500 --> 04:01.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% The cities didn't require the 04:01.700 --> 04:02.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% coroner to have any medical 04:02.900 --> 04:04.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% training. 04:04.033 --> 04:05.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% New York's coroners had been 04:05.033 --> 04:07.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% sign painters and milkmen. 04:07.400 --> 04:09.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And so the police had spent 04:09.466 --> 04:12.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% literally years avoiding the 04:12.100 --> 04:14.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% so-called "science of crime" and 04:14.633 --> 04:16.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% so not only did they have to 04:16.633 --> 04:18.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% invent the science that kind of 04:18.600 --> 04:20.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% defined the poisons, they had to 04:20.566 --> 04:23.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% persuade their colleagues in the 04:23.066 --> 04:25.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% police and in the courts that 04:25.000 --> 04:26.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% they actually were worth 04:26.266 --> 04:27.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% listening to. 04:27.900 --> 04:28.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> This took some money, too, of 04:28.966 --> 04:30.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% course, which couldn't have been 04:30.033 --> 04:31.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% easy, even in the '20s. 04:31.333 --> 04:34.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> It did, and because people 04:34.466 --> 04:36.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% were so used to the old system, 04:36.833 --> 04:38.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% the government of New York was 04:38.100 --> 04:40.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% really resistant to funding 04:40.666 --> 04:42.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% Norris's office. 04:42.766 --> 04:44.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% The great thing was the Norris 04:44.433 --> 04:45.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% was actually independently 04:45.533 --> 04:49.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% wealthy, and he spent thousands 04:49.933 --> 04:51.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% of dollars, which in the 1920s 04:51.800 --> 04:55.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% was lots of money, thousands of 04:55.000 --> 04:56.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% dollars of his own money. 04:56.800 --> 04:57.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% He bought equipment for the 04:57.933 --> 05:01.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% laboratory, he paid salaries. 05:01.733 --> 05:03.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% There was one mayor he was 05:03.000 --> 05:04.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% fighting with who took the 05:04.133 --> 05:05.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% clocks off the walls. 05:05.500 --> 05:07.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% He bought the clocks and put 05:07.033 --> 05:08.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% them back. 05:08.533 --> 05:09.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% So one of the things I've always 05:09.933 --> 05:11.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% thought when you look at these 05:11.133 --> 05:13.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% two guys is, you have Norris, 05:13.133 --> 05:15.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% who's a natural public servant, 05:15.766 --> 05:17.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% and willing to put his own money 05:17.433 --> 05:18.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% into it, which you don't see 05:18.466 --> 05:20.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% that often today. 05:20.366 --> 05:22.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And you have Gettler, who's the 05:22.033 --> 05:23.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% most obsessive chemist in the 05:23.766 --> 05:24.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% world. 05:24.833 --> 05:26.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Maybe not the world, but one of 05:26.333 --> 05:29.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the most obsessive, determined, 05:29.800 --> 05:31.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% foot solider chemists. 05:31.933 --> 05:33.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And they come together and they 05:33.533 --> 05:35.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% really reinvent forensic 05:35.200 --> 05:38.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% medicine in the United States. 05:38.166 --> 05:39.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Gettler is called the father of 05:39.433 --> 05:41.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% forensic toxicology, in fact. 05:41.500 --> 05:42.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Well, before we get into some 05:42.633 --> 05:44.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% of their specific cases, some of 05:44.600 --> 05:46.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% them spectacular, let's look at 05:46.000 --> 05:47.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% this sort of rogue's gallery of 05:47.733 --> 05:49.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% poisons that were out there and 05:49.333 --> 05:51.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% fairly readily available. 05:51.933 --> 05:53.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% >> Arsenic. 05:53.366 --> 05:55.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% And arsenic had been the 05:55.666 --> 05:58.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% homicidal killer's best friend 05:58.000 --> 05:59.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% for really a couple of 05:59.200 --> 06:01.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% centuries. 06:01.733 --> 06:03.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% It started to sort of lose that 06:03.066 --> 06:04.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% grip in the 1900s. 06:04.633 --> 06:06.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Arsenic is a wonderful poison 06:06.566 --> 06:08.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% because it's tasteless, it's 06:08.533 --> 06:10.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% odorless. 06:10.333 --> 06:11.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Ground fine it has almost no 06:11.800 --> 06:13.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% texture, so poisoners could put 06:13.266 --> 06:15.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% it into food. 06:15.866 --> 06:17.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% It would mimic the symptoms, and 06:17.333 --> 06:19.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% it does, of a natural illness. 06:19.933 --> 06:21.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And because scientists, up until 06:21.966 --> 06:23.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% about the 1900s, did not know 06:23.733 --> 06:26.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% how to extract arsenic from the 06:26.233 --> 06:28.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% tissues of a corpse, there was 06:28.133 --> 06:30.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% no way to prove it was a poison. 06:30.266 --> 06:32.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And so arsenic was actually the 06:32.733 --> 06:34.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% first poison that scientists 06:34.500 --> 06:36.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% tried to get a grip on. 06:36.366 --> 06:40.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Cyanide, which you can get from, 06:40.533 --> 06:43.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% actually, extracted from the 06:43.133 --> 06:45.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% pits of apricots and peaches. 06:45.533 --> 06:46.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> You could make your own 06:46.533 --> 06:47.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% cyanide? 06:47.433 --> 06:49.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> If you really wanted to, and 06:49.533 --> 06:50.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% it would be laborious, you could 06:50.833 --> 06:53.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% make your own cyanide. 06:53.766 --> 06:55.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So you had cyanide, cyanide was 06:55.266 --> 06:56.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% widely available. 06:56.633 --> 07:00.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% Mercury was in medicines. 07:00.400 --> 07:01.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% What else? 07:01.733 --> 07:03.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Antimony, which I don't go into 07:03.133 --> 07:04.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% in the book, which is related to 07:04.466 --> 07:06.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% arsenic. 07:06.500 --> 07:08.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% One of the most interesting 07:08.466 --> 07:09.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% poisons to me is one we still 07:09.766 --> 07:10.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% have today, which is carbon 07:10.933 --> 07:12.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% monoxide. 07:12.300 --> 07:13.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% At that point, you had gas 07:13.366 --> 07:14.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% lighting. 07:14.533 --> 07:17.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% It was really easy to stage a 07:17.633 --> 07:19.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% murder, essentially, with carbon 07:19.733 --> 07:22.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% monoxide, and people did that. 07:22.000 --> 07:23.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% And carbon monoxide's a 07:23.233 --> 07:25.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% beautiful and lethal poison. 07:25.600 --> 07:28.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% >> Yes, easily fatal. 07:28.866 --> 07:30.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% >> And radium. 07:30.666 --> 07:31.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Radium's an interesting poison 07:31.866 --> 07:34.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% because it's a radioactive 07:34.133 --> 07:37.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% element. 07:37.033 --> 07:39.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And at that time, people thought 07:39.166 --> 07:40.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% of radioactive elements as 07:40.600 --> 07:43.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% wonderful things, so their 07:43.300 --> 07:44.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% attitude toward it throughout 07:44.700 --> 07:46.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% the 1920s was very different 07:46.566 --> 07:48.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% than what we have today. 07:48.133 --> 07:50.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And now, you see, like in 07:50.000 --> 07:51.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% espionage cases. 07:51.966 --> 07:54.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% A few years ago they had a 07:54.000 --> 07:57.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% former Russian spy who was 07:57.366 --> 07:59.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% killed with polonium 210, which 07:59.400 --> 08:01.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% is sort of a structural cousin 08:01.466 --> 08:03.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% of radium, also discovered by 08:03.300 --> 08:05.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% Marie Curie. 08:05.066 --> 08:06.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% Now we'll look at these and 08:06.333 --> 08:07.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% we'll say, oh, this is something 08:07.333 --> 08:08.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% dangerous. 08:08.600 --> 08:09.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> They take longer, though, 08:09.566 --> 08:11.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% don't they, those radioactivity 08:11.166 --> 08:12.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% related deaths? 08:12.466 --> 08:13.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Certainly that Russian spy took 08:13.566 --> 08:14.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% a while. 08:14.666 --> 08:15.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Right, and again, it's dose 08:15.633 --> 08:17.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% related. 08:17.466 --> 08:19.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% If you had a major blast of 08:19.433 --> 08:20.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radiation you'd probably die a 08:20.733 --> 08:23.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% lot faster, but the problem for 08:23.333 --> 08:25.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% that guy and in some of the 08:25.466 --> 08:27.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% stories I tell in the book is, 08:27.133 --> 08:28.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% they work particularly well if 08:28.900 --> 08:31.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% you swallow them, because some 08:31.533 --> 08:33.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% of their radiation our skin 08:33.333 --> 08:34.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% protects us from. 08:34.866 --> 08:36.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% But once you get it inside, it's 08:36.933 --> 08:38.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% a different story. 08:38.266 --> 08:39.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> What about good old-fashioned 08:39.233 --> 08:40.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% chloroform? 08:40.266 --> 08:41.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% We usually think of that as 08:41.233 --> 08:42.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% something just to knock somebody 08:42.266 --> 08:44.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% out, but actually it could also 08:44.100 --> 08:45.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% be used to kill people? 08:45.700 --> 08:46.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> Oh, that's a good point. 08:46.833 --> 08:48.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Chloroform is really the poison 08:48.033 --> 08:49.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% I used when I started the book, 08:49.333 --> 08:50.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% because I was tracking a 08:50.766 --> 08:52.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% chloroform serial killer who 08:52.666 --> 08:55.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% confessed and still actually 08:55.966 --> 08:57.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% walked away. 08:57.700 --> 08:59.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And one of the reasons he was 08:59.900 --> 09:01.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% able to walk away is that the 09:01.500 --> 09:03.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% coroner who took on his case 09:03.300 --> 09:04.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% didn't know anything about the 09:04.666 --> 09:06.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% science of chloroform, and 09:06.300 --> 09:07.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% didn't realize they could find 09:07.366 --> 09:08.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% it in the corpses. 09:08.900 --> 09:10.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And so he actually told the 09:10.400 --> 09:11.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% prosecuting attorney there was 09:11.600 --> 09:13.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% no way to prove that the man had 09:13.233 --> 09:14.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% chloroform. 09:14.400 --> 09:15.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Chloroform was invented in the 09:15.833 --> 09:20.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% mid-19th century, as a surgical 09:20.600 --> 09:22.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% anesthetic. 09:22.800 --> 09:24.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And it was a great step up in a 09:24.000 --> 09:25.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% lot of ways from ether, which 09:25.166 --> 09:27.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% was flammable, because at that 09:27.400 --> 09:29.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% time they were using candles to 09:29.600 --> 09:31.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% light operating theaters. 09:31.866 --> 09:33.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> That wouldn't be a good 09:33.233 --> 09:34.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% combination. 09:34.233 --> 09:35.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 09:35.300 --> 09:36.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And they used to blow up. 09:36.333 --> 09:37.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So along came chloroform, which 09:37.366 --> 09:39.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% was a wonderful thing until two 09:39.866 --> 09:41.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% things happened. 09:41.066 --> 09:42.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% One, criminals discovered it was 09:42.766 --> 09:44.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% really an effective poison. 09:44.933 --> 09:46.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And they discovered that because 09:46.933 --> 09:48.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% doctors discovered that their 09:48.900 --> 09:50.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% patients were mysteriously dying 09:50.633 --> 09:52.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% on the operating table and 09:52.633 --> 09:54.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% chloroform turned out to be 09:54.533 --> 09:57.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% unpredictably really deadly. 09:57.600 --> 09:58.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> In terms of the dose, you 09:58.933 --> 10:00.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% couldn't tell whether this was 10:00.100 --> 10:01.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% put-em-under or put-em-away. 10:01.800 --> 10:03.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Right, you actually could not 10:03.033 --> 10:05.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% set a safe dose for chloroform, 10:05.066 --> 10:07.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% which made it not a great 10:07.266 --> 10:10.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% anesthetic. 10:10.066 --> 10:11.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% The other thing that happened 10:11.133 --> 10:12.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% was that home invasion 10:12.833 --> 10:16.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% burglaries were one of the - or 10:16.866 --> 10:18.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% burglars who did home invasions, 10:18.500 --> 10:19.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% they loved chloroform. 10:19.833 --> 10:20.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And if you go back and you look 10:20.966 --> 10:22.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% at the newspapers in the early 10:22.000 --> 10:23.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% 20th century, you'll actually 10:23.533 --> 10:25.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% find these things where, you 10:25.333 --> 10:26.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% hear a knock on the door, you go 10:26.333 --> 10:27.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% to the door, someone puts a 10:27.566 --> 10:28.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% chloroform-soaked rag over your 10:28.866 --> 10:29.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% face, you wake up everything's 10:29.933 --> 10:31.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% gone. 10:31.266 --> 10:32.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And there was one of my favorite 10:32.700 --> 10:34.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% cases. 10:34.033 --> 10:35.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Hair was really valuable then 10:35.500 --> 10:36.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% for wigs. 10:36.933 --> 10:38.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% There was a young woman, a knock 10:38.433 --> 10:39.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% on the door, she opens it, she 10:39.733 --> 10:41.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% wakes up, she's bald, right? 10:41.700 --> 10:42.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Because that's all they were 10:42.866 --> 10:44.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% doing, they were going around 10:44.500 --> 10:45.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% and stealing hair. 10:45.766 --> 10:47.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% I mean, it was a fantastically 10:47.433 --> 10:48.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% interesting time. 10:48.933 --> 10:50.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% So I looked at chloroform in 10:50.066 --> 10:52.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% that sense, and I looked at a 10:52.466 --> 10:54.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% really interesting problem which 10:54.933 --> 10:57.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% was, you could kill someone with 10:57.766 --> 10:59.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% chloroform, even someone really 10:59.466 --> 11:01.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% rich and powerful. 11:01.433 --> 11:02.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And the example I looked at was 11:02.800 --> 11:04.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% William Rice, who endowed Rice 11:04.066 --> 11:05.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% University in Texas. 11:05.866 --> 11:07.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Good case, so that's one of 11:07.066 --> 11:08.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% the earlier ones. 11:08.333 --> 11:09.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% It was 1900, I think? 11:09.533 --> 11:10.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 11:10.933 --> 11:13.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And Rice was apparently killed 11:13.533 --> 11:15.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% with chloroform. 11:15.000 --> 11:16.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They took the killers to trial 11:16.200 --> 11:18.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% and the doctors essentially got 11:18.966 --> 11:21.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% in a dog fight in the courtroom 11:21.066 --> 11:23.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% about how the chloroform had 11:23.466 --> 11:25.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% killed him, could you even find 11:25.266 --> 11:26.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% it in the body, and eventually 11:26.733 --> 11:28.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% they had to let everyone go. 11:28.500 --> 11:30.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% So it made a great case of 11:30.333 --> 11:32.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% showing how you could actually 11:32.000 --> 11:34.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% even figure out the poison and 11:34.066 --> 11:35.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% still lose in the courtroom, 11:35.533 --> 11:36.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% which was one of the problems we 11:36.933 --> 11:38.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% see going into the 20th century. 11:38.866 --> 11:40.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% People actually didn't believe 11:40.066 --> 11:41.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% you could win a poison case. 11:41.866 --> 11:43.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> Because it was a fact of 11:43.533 --> 11:45.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% prosecution's science against 11:45.466 --> 11:46.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% defense's science? 11:46.633 --> 11:48.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% >> That's exactly right. 11:48.100 --> 11:49.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% The prosecutions had failed too 11:49.333 --> 11:51.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% many times, the science wasn't 11:51.000 --> 11:52.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% coherent enough. 11:52.466 --> 11:54.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% You'd get these kind of furious 11:54.233 --> 11:55.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% arguments in the courtroom. 11:55.466 --> 11:56.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% People would throw up their 11:56.700 --> 11:57.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% hands. 11:57.733 --> 11:59.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And there wasn't - we take for 11:59.700 --> 12:01.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% granted the kind of CSI of 12:01.200 --> 12:02.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% today. 12:02.966 --> 12:04.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% >> It's definite. 12:04.333 --> 12:06.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> Yeah, you have the state 12:06.900 --> 12:08.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% laboratory scientists or the 12:08.333 --> 12:09.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% federal scientist comes up and 12:09.700 --> 12:13.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% tells us what the lab found. 12:13.033 --> 12:14.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% They didn't have that then. 12:14.300 --> 12:15.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% I mean, when someone like an 12:15.600 --> 12:16.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% Alexander Gettler came and 12:16.600 --> 12:17.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% testified in the courtroom, 12:17.833 --> 12:18.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% people didn't know what to do 12:18.833 --> 12:20.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% with him. 12:20.666 --> 12:22.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% So you see in the 1920s this 12:22.766 --> 12:24.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% evolution where the expert 12:24.466 --> 12:26.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% witness, the scientific expert 12:26.066 --> 12:27.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% witness, starts to become 12:27.900 --> 12:29.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% someone people listen to. 12:29.700 --> 12:30.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And the interesting thing with 12:30.933 --> 12:32.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Gettler was that by the end of 12:32.633 --> 12:34.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% his career in the '30s, defense 12:34.633 --> 12:35.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% attorneys were complaining that 12:35.966 --> 12:38.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% all he had to do was sit down in 12:38.066 --> 12:39.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% the chair and the jury said, 12:39.466 --> 12:41.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% "That person must be guilty." 12:41.600 --> 12:43.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Because he had become almost 12:43.000 --> 12:44.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% too credible. 12:44.066 --> 12:45.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% >> So credible. 12:45.966 --> 12:47.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And now you have a chunk of 12:47.100 --> 12:48.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% something here that you brought 12:48.300 --> 12:49.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:7.5% in. 12:49.333 --> 12:50.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% It looks like, what are we 12:50.366 --> 12:51.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% looking at here? 12:51.666 --> 12:55.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% >> That's radium. 12:55.333 --> 12:57.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And radium was mined and you'd 12:57.166 --> 12:59.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% find it in these kind of chunks. 12:59.933 --> 13:01.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% That's a chunk of ore that you'd 13:01.266 --> 13:03.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% extract radium from. 13:03.700 --> 13:05.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Just sitting there like any 13:05.166 --> 13:06.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% other kind of household item. 13:06.933 --> 13:08.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 13:08.266 --> 13:09.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Well, it wouldn't actually go 13:09.300 --> 13:10.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% into your household in quite 13:10.800 --> 13:12.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% that chunk, but that's a good 13:12.400 --> 13:14.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% image. 13:14.666 --> 13:16.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% That's actually a chunk of 13:16.033 --> 13:20.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% uranium ore that you would find 13:20.033 --> 13:21.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% radium in the tailings. 13:21.566 --> 13:23.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And Marie Curie discovered this. 13:23.833 --> 13:25.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% She was working with uranium in 13:25.466 --> 13:27.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the late 19th century and there 13:27.533 --> 13:29.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% was way more radiation than 13:29.466 --> 13:30.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% uranium should have been giving 13:30.833 --> 13:32.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:10% off. 13:32.400 --> 13:34.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% And eventually, she 13:34.066 --> 13:35.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% painstakingly figured out that 13:35.666 --> 13:37.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% it wasn't the uranium, it was a 13:37.466 --> 13:39.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% much more active element called 13:39.566 --> 13:43.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% radium that emitted, had much 13:43.433 --> 13:46.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% more intensity than uranium and 13:46.033 --> 13:47.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% immediately people started 13:47.700 --> 13:50.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% looking at it and using it to 13:50.066 --> 13:52.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% treat cancer. 13:52.033 --> 13:53.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> What reason did they have to 13:53.866 --> 13:55.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% do that? 13:55.066 --> 13:57.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% What was the inspiration that 13:57.200 --> 13:59.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% made them want to treat cancer? 13:59.000 --> 14:00.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> There had been some other 14:00.633 --> 14:02.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% experimentation actually with 14:02.900 --> 14:04.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radioactive ores earlier, like 14:04.733 --> 14:06.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% uranium, in which they'd seen 14:06.533 --> 14:09.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% some shrinkage of tumors. 14:09.200 --> 14:11.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% So now you have this very rare 14:11.366 --> 14:14.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% ore that has a lot more energy. 14:14.933 --> 14:17.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% People would actually, doctors 14:17.033 --> 14:18.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% would take a tiny piece of 14:18.700 --> 14:20.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% uranium and put in a glass tube 14:20.500 --> 14:22.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% and insert it into a tumor. 14:22.500 --> 14:23.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% So you have the thing inside 14:23.900 --> 14:25.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:10% you. 14:25.166 --> 14:26.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% But those tumors would shrink, 14:26.366 --> 14:28.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% because we do know that 14:28.466 --> 14:29.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% basically as the cells are 14:29.766 --> 14:31.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% dividing, they're getting 14:31.000 --> 14:32.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% bombarded by this lethal dose 14:32.666 --> 14:34.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% and it kills them. 14:34.100 --> 14:35.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% So what happened, and what makes 14:35.266 --> 14:37.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radium so interesting, and you 14:37.000 --> 14:40.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% see here in this slide, "radium 14:40.700 --> 14:42.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% is a wonderful medicine." 14:42.800 --> 14:44.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% People started thinking of 14:44.100 --> 14:45.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radium as a tiny health-giving 14:45.433 --> 14:46.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:10% sun. 14:46.366 --> 14:47.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% That's the image I always think 14:47.333 --> 14:48.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% of it, this little sparkling sun 14:48.766 --> 14:50.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% in the ground. 14:50.266 --> 14:52.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And they went right from radium 14:52.833 --> 14:56.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% to treat cancer into radium to 14:56.833 --> 14:59.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% improve your entire health. 14:59.366 --> 15:01.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% There were radium health books. 15:01.566 --> 15:02.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% Radium to make you more 15:02.933 --> 15:03.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% beautiful. 15:03.966 --> 15:06.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% There were radium face creams. 15:06.366 --> 15:07.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% I always imagine this, you put 15:07.566 --> 15:08.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% it on, your skin glows, your 15:08.900 --> 15:10.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% face falls off. 15:10.666 --> 15:12.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% It was just horrible. 15:12.266 --> 15:14.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Radium candy that they used to 15:14.000 --> 15:15.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% give to kids to kind of perk 15:15.333 --> 15:17.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% them up. 15:17.000 --> 15:18.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% You just can't believe, they put 15:18.000 --> 15:19.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% radium into everything. 15:19.866 --> 15:20.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And the other thing they did 15:20.966 --> 15:22.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% with radium, which is really 15:22.100 --> 15:23.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% interesting, came out of 15:23.900 --> 15:25.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% World War I. 15:25.433 --> 15:27.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And that is, one of the great 15:27.766 --> 15:31.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% inventions of World War I was 15:31.266 --> 15:34.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% the wristwatch because they 15:34.700 --> 15:36.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% discovered that if you were a 15:36.300 --> 15:37.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% soldier crawling around in a 15:37.466 --> 15:39.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% trench with your pocket watch, 15:39.666 --> 15:40.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% they would fall out, they would 15:40.900 --> 15:41.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% get crushed. 15:41.966 --> 15:43.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% The military came up with a 15:43.133 --> 15:44.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% strap to hold the watch on the 15:44.333 --> 15:45.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% wrist. 15:45.666 --> 15:47.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And then they needed instruments 15:47.000 --> 15:48.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% that would be luminous at night 15:48.766 --> 15:50.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% but not bright enough to let the 15:50.066 --> 15:51.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% enemy see. 15:51.433 --> 15:53.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% So they were looking for 15:53.433 --> 15:54.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% something to produce this very 15:54.866 --> 15:56.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% faint glow and they discovered 15:56.466 --> 15:57.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% that if you mixed radium and 15:57.966 --> 15:59.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% zinc, the zinc atoms would get 15:59.933 --> 16:01.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% excited and they would glow. 16:01.900 --> 16:03.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And they came up with luminous 16:03.233 --> 16:04.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% paints. 16:04.466 --> 16:06.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And after World War I, this was 16:06.866 --> 16:09.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% an enormous fad. 16:09.066 --> 16:10.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Everyone wanted a wristwatch. 16:10.600 --> 16:12.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Everyone wanted a glowing watch. 16:12.600 --> 16:15.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% Even a glowing clock. 16:15.066 --> 16:17.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And so you got this boom in 16:17.200 --> 16:20.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% factories in which the watch 16:20.000 --> 16:22.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% faces got more and more 16:22.600 --> 16:24.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% beautiful, almost artists 16:24.766 --> 16:25.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% painting these watch faces and 16:25.933 --> 16:27.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% they hired very young girls and 16:27.800 --> 16:29.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% they would paint these 16:29.166 --> 16:30.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% elaborate, lacy numbers and 16:30.366 --> 16:31.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% designs. 16:31.800 --> 16:33.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And to make the brushes sharp 16:33.566 --> 16:35.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% enough to make these designs, 16:35.666 --> 16:37.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% they would lick the point. 16:37.800 --> 16:40.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And every time they dipped this 16:40.400 --> 16:41.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% brush back into their mouth... 16:41.366 --> 16:42.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> They were ingesting radium. 16:42.600 --> 16:43.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> They were swallowing 16:43.700 --> 16:44.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% the paint. 16:44.700 --> 16:45.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% >> For hours a day. 16:45.600 --> 16:46.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% >> Yes. 16:46.500 --> 16:47.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They'd paint hundreds of these 16:47.400 --> 16:48.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% watch faces a day, because they 16:48.400 --> 16:51.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% were paid a penny a face. 16:51.266 --> 16:53.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And they thought they were just 16:53.500 --> 16:55.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% making themselves healthier. 16:55.533 --> 16:57.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% In fact, you can go back, people 16:57.566 --> 16:58.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% later called these 16:58.566 --> 16:59.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% the "radium girls." 16:59.800 --> 17:01.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And they would paint their teeth 17:01.433 --> 17:02.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% to make little Cheshire Cat 17:02.733 --> 17:03.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% smiles. 17:03.766 --> 17:04.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> In other words, they were 17:04.700 --> 17:05.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% playing with it. 17:05.600 --> 17:06.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> Yes, they played with the 17:06.666 --> 17:07.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% radium. 17:07.566 --> 17:08.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And later when scientists 17:08.566 --> 17:09.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% finally started looking at them, 17:09.766 --> 17:11.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% they said if they took these 17:11.033 --> 17:12.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% girls and they turned out the 17:12.166 --> 17:13.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% light, they glowed like ghosts 17:13.166 --> 17:14.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% in the dark. 17:14.200 --> 17:15.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They were just so covered with 17:15.966 --> 17:17.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% radium. 17:17.066 --> 17:18.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And the reason scientists 17:18.200 --> 17:19.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% started looking at them is 17:19.866 --> 17:21.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% literally they started to 17:21.266 --> 17:23.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% crumble from within. 17:23.266 --> 17:24.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% Their jaws broke. 17:24.766 --> 17:26.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> It was the bone structure 17:26.333 --> 17:27.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% that the radium would 17:27.700 --> 17:28.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% disintegrate. 17:28.800 --> 17:29.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 17:29.900 --> 17:30.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Because what happened was, and 17:30.966 --> 17:32.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% this is what makes radium such 17:32.066 --> 17:34.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% an interesting poison, it's 17:34.133 --> 17:35.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% structurally a whole lot like 17:35.633 --> 17:37.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% calcium. 17:37.000 --> 17:40.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And when you swallow it, almost, 17:40.966 --> 17:42.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% your body takes it up like 17:42.233 --> 17:43.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% calcium. 17:43.300 --> 17:44.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% It goes to the bones. 17:44.566 --> 17:46.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And once it's in the bones you 17:46.000 --> 17:47.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% have now this radioactive 17:47.833 --> 17:50.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% material emitting and literally 17:50.400 --> 17:52.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% it just destroyed the bones. 17:52.500 --> 17:55.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% It destroyed bone marrow, so 17:55.066 --> 17:56.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% that you started seeing 17:56.200 --> 17:58.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% leukemias and aplastic anemias. 17:58.600 --> 17:59.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And it broke the bones to 17:59.666 --> 18:00.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% pieces. 18:00.733 --> 18:02.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% These girls had their jaws 18:02.033 --> 18:03.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% removed. 18:03.966 --> 18:05.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Their spines started snapping. 18:05.900 --> 18:07.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Their legs broke underneath them 18:07.433 --> 18:09.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% as they walked. 18:09.033 --> 18:10.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And at first, people kept 18:10.233 --> 18:11.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% saying, "Oh no, it's not radium, 18:11.700 --> 18:13.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% it's not radium." 18:13.633 --> 18:16.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Until finally the scientific 18:16.000 --> 18:19.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% evidence was so heavy. 18:19.766 --> 18:21.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Gettler and Norris actually did 18:21.233 --> 18:23.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% one experiment where they took 18:23.100 --> 18:24.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the body of a girl who had been 18:24.766 --> 18:26.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% dead for six years and she 18:26.633 --> 18:28.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% hadn't even been diagnosed with 18:28.066 --> 18:29.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% a radium sickness. 18:29.533 --> 18:31.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And they took her bones and 18:31.266 --> 18:32.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% wrapped them up in photographic 18:32.733 --> 18:34.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% paper and left them there for a 18:34.166 --> 18:35.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% few days. 18:35.933 --> 18:37.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And six years later these things 18:37.533 --> 18:39.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% were spitting radiation. 18:39.233 --> 18:41.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Essentially she was radiating in 18:41.633 --> 18:42.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% the grave. 18:42.966 --> 18:44.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% It's sort of incredible. 18:44.200 --> 18:45.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> There's another kind of 18:45.200 --> 18:46.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% irony. 18:46.166 --> 18:49.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% The working class destruction of 18:49.466 --> 18:51.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% health through these long days, 18:51.800 --> 18:53.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% exposure to hazardous materials, 18:53.266 --> 18:54.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% is one thing, but radium being 18:54.900 --> 18:57.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% so expensive, there would be 18:57.133 --> 18:58.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% kind of an irony, wouldn't 18:58.400 --> 18:59.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% there? 18:59.266 --> 19:00.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% In that you would have people 19:00.333 --> 19:01.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% that were very wealthy, the only 19:01.133 --> 19:02.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% ones who could afford, say, a 19:02.166 --> 19:03.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radium drink or something or a 19:03.566 --> 19:05.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% radium tonic. 19:05.633 --> 19:07.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% >> That's right. 19:07.233 --> 19:08.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Would be more affected than 19:08.933 --> 19:10.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% the less wealthy classes. 19:10.800 --> 19:11.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> And one of the interesting 19:11.833 --> 19:13.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% things about the story of the 19:13.100 --> 19:15.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% radium girls is, although they 19:15.266 --> 19:17.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% successfully eventually sued 19:17.533 --> 19:18.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% their corporation and got 19:18.900 --> 19:20.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% settlements, the public health 19:20.666 --> 19:22.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% laws did not change until the 19:22.166 --> 19:24.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% wealthy started to get sick. 19:24.966 --> 19:27.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And the case study for that was 19:27.366 --> 19:28.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% a Philadelphia industrialist 19:28.966 --> 19:30.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% named Evan Beyers, who had 19:30.766 --> 19:32.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% injured his shoulder and his 19:32.233 --> 19:33.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% doctor told him to drink one of 19:33.733 --> 19:35.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% these radium health drinks 19:35.166 --> 19:37.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% called Radithor, which was 19:37.333 --> 19:38.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% actually made down the street 19:38.566 --> 19:39.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% from one of the big radium watch 19:39.733 --> 19:40.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% factories. 19:40.966 --> 19:43.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And he drank, like, several 19:43.933 --> 19:45.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% thousand bottles over a few 19:45.700 --> 19:47.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% years, he said. 19:47.166 --> 19:49.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And he began to look just like a 19:49.033 --> 19:50.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% radium girl. 19:50.866 --> 19:53.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% He dropped 80 pounds, his jaw 19:53.633 --> 19:57.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% broke, his arms fractured. 19:57.500 --> 20:00.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And when he died, all of his 20:00.366 --> 20:02.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% powerful friends then went to 20:02.166 --> 20:03.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the federal government and they 20:03.400 --> 20:04.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% said, why aren't you doing 20:04.466 --> 20:06.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% anything about us? 20:06.400 --> 20:08.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And so then you started to see 20:08.233 --> 20:09.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% the first serious legislation 20:09.766 --> 20:11.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% about radium. 20:11.233 --> 20:12.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> But they continued to use 20:12.333 --> 20:13.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% radium in watch dials, did they 20:13.800 --> 20:16.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% not, for what, into the '60s? 20:16.100 --> 20:17.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> They did, and it was again 20:17.966 --> 20:21.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% used, hand-painted by women, 20:21.066 --> 20:23.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% during World War II as well, so 20:23.066 --> 20:24.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% you did see this kind of tiered 20:24.566 --> 20:26.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% standard. 20:26.366 --> 20:28.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% After the book came out, I 20:28.066 --> 20:29.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% started hearing from people 20:29.433 --> 20:32.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% whose grandparents had worked at 20:32.133 --> 20:33.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% the watch factories up through 20:33.433 --> 20:34.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% the '60s. 20:34.666 --> 20:36.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% It's really interesting when you 20:36.333 --> 20:37.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% look at the way the government 20:37.833 --> 20:39.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% responds to some of these 20:39.266 --> 20:41.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% issues. 20:41.066 --> 20:42.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% People were reluctant to give up 20:42.733 --> 20:44.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% a useful tool. 20:44.533 --> 20:45.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% And there's a lot of 20:45.500 --> 20:46.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% negotiations, without sounding 20:46.733 --> 20:48.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% too cynical, there's a lot of 20:48.000 --> 20:51.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% negotiations between businesses 20:51.333 --> 20:54.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% and the government on some of 20:54.633 --> 20:56.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% these regulations. 20:56.000 --> 20:58.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% I mean, mercury, shifting gears 20:58.033 --> 20:59.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% slightly, is a really good 20:59.400 --> 21:02.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% example of this because there 21:02.433 --> 21:04.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% was a common antiseptic called 21:04.833 --> 21:06.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% Mercurochrome. 21:06.033 --> 21:07.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% >> Sure, yes. 21:07.800 --> 21:09.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Yes, it was sort of bright 21:09.033 --> 21:10.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% pink, orange, everybody used to 21:10.166 --> 21:11.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% paint themselves up with it. 21:11.600 --> 21:12.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% >> If you got a cut or a 21:12.700 --> 21:13.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% scratch, you would paint on the 21:13.833 --> 21:14.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% Mercurochrome. 21:14.900 --> 21:15.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> I was talking to one of my 21:15.866 --> 21:16.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% colleagues in my department who 21:16.900 --> 21:17.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% said when he was a kid they 21:17.900 --> 21:19.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% would use it to make Indian war 21:19.433 --> 21:20.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% paint. 21:20.666 --> 21:22.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> It smelled kind of neat. 21:22.233 --> 21:23.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Yeah, and had this kind of 21:23.633 --> 21:27.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% bright neon-like color to it. 21:27.866 --> 21:29.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% It was, in fact, loaded with 21:29.700 --> 21:31.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% mercury, right? 21:31.633 --> 21:32.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% The "mer" in that comes from 21:32.633 --> 21:33.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% "mercury." 21:33.933 --> 21:35.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% The FDA actually never banned 21:35.533 --> 21:37.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% Mercurochrome. 21:37.200 --> 21:40.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% It started fading off the 21:40.033 --> 21:42.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% market as it got replaced by 21:42.233 --> 21:43.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Neosporins and some of those 21:43.466 --> 21:45.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% kinds of things, and when the 21:45.466 --> 21:46.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% FDA actually looked at it they 21:46.800 --> 21:48.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% kind of said, "Well, you know, 21:48.300 --> 21:49.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% there's a lot of mercury in 21:49.400 --> 21:50.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% this. 21:50.566 --> 21:52.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% We'll just declare it an 21:52.433 --> 21:54.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% unproven product." 21:54.333 --> 21:55.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% That means that the companies 21:55.566 --> 21:58.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% have to come back and prove that 21:58.933 --> 22:00.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% it's safe. 22:00.133 --> 22:01.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And all the companies went, eh, 22:01.600 --> 22:02.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% why would we do that when we can 22:02.733 --> 22:04.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% sell it overseas? 22:04.266 --> 22:05.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% >> Oh, sure. 22:05.466 --> 22:06.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> And so what happened is, all 22:06.800 --> 22:07.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% these companies that make 22:07.733 --> 22:09.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Mercurochrome in an antiseptic 22:09.066 --> 22:10.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% don't sell it in the United 22:10.333 --> 22:11.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% States anymore because they're 22:11.266 --> 22:12.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% not going through the safety 22:12.300 --> 22:13.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% process. 22:13.466 --> 22:14.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% But if you go into the 22:14.566 --> 22:16.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% literature overseas, it's still 22:16.100 --> 22:17.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% around. 22:17.166 --> 22:18.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And it's been around since about 22:18.533 --> 22:19.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% the turn of the 20th century, so 22:19.766 --> 22:21.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% it's right in this period. 22:21.166 --> 22:23.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% So you do see this really 22:23.566 --> 22:24.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% interesting dance with 22:24.900 --> 22:27.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% regulation on poisons. 22:27.433 --> 22:29.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Interesting being a very polite 22:29.533 --> 22:31.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% word. 22:31.666 --> 22:32.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> And here we have another 22:32.833 --> 22:35.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% interesting way of, what would 22:35.033 --> 22:37.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% you say, applying poison. 22:37.866 --> 22:39.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% Doesn't look too healthy. 22:39.300 --> 22:41.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% (both laugh) 22:41.866 --> 22:42.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> Well, we're not drinking 22:42.900 --> 22:44.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% radium anymore, that's for sure. 22:44.800 --> 22:46.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> -- out of the cooler there. 22:46.100 --> 22:48.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 22:48.333 --> 22:49.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And this is, I think this 22:49.566 --> 22:51.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% picture is, we had a lot of kind 22:51.466 --> 22:53.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% of nice pictures of radium, 22:53.733 --> 22:57.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% extracting ore in this picture. 22:57.566 --> 22:59.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And we still use radiation to 22:59.266 --> 23:01.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% treat cancer, right? 23:01.333 --> 23:03.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% But if you go now to get any 23:03.266 --> 23:04.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% kind of radiation treatment, 23:04.733 --> 23:08.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% like a basic X-ray, the person 23:08.500 --> 23:10.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% who is doing that treatment is 23:10.366 --> 23:12.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% not hovering around. 23:12.666 --> 23:15.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% They go somewhere else. 23:15.400 --> 23:17.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And it wasn't just radium. 23:17.300 --> 23:19.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They used to have X-ray machines 23:19.933 --> 23:21.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% in shoe stores, I don't know if 23:21.300 --> 23:23.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% you remember this, right? 23:23.266 --> 23:24.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> I've heard of, yeah. 23:24.466 --> 23:25.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Yeah, kids would go in and it 23:25.800 --> 23:28.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% was like a game. 23:28.000 --> 23:29.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> A do-your-own X-ray? 23:29.200 --> 23:30.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> A do-your-own X-ray. 23:30.500 --> 23:31.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% You'd go, they'd image their 23:31.466 --> 23:32.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% foot, cool, they could see the 23:32.700 --> 23:33.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% bones. 23:33.666 --> 23:34.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% They'd image their hands. 23:34.800 --> 23:36.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% We goofed around with radiation 23:36.166 --> 23:38.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% for a long time, and way after 23:38.566 --> 23:40.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the Radium Girl case, which was 23:40.966 --> 23:45.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% settled in 1928-29, before we 23:45.400 --> 23:47.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% started saying, you know, this 23:47.900 --> 23:49.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% is really not such great stuff. 23:49.600 --> 23:50.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Just go out and play in the 23:50.700 --> 23:51.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% DDT instead. 23:51.966 --> 23:53.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% (both laugh) 23:53.533 --> 23:55.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% A good wholesome afternoon. 23:55.233 --> 23:56.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% >> That's right. 23:56.666 --> 23:58.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% It's a different poison. 23:58.466 --> 23:59.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> And is this another look at 23:59.833 --> 24:01.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% the radium extraction here? 24:01.366 --> 24:02.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Mm-hm. 24:02.600 --> 24:04.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% This is radium extraction and if 24:04.600 --> 24:07.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% you move it on one more, radium 24:07.033 --> 24:08.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% mining. 24:08.733 --> 24:09.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% This is uranium mining, 24:09.833 --> 24:11.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% actually, so you've got a lot of 24:11.833 --> 24:14.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% images of radioactive material. 24:14.566 --> 24:15.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Geiger counters used to be 24:15.700 --> 24:17.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% popular in the '50s, too, in the 24:17.066 --> 24:20.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% atomic age, of course. 24:20.433 --> 24:22.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And here we have, of course, an 24:22.900 --> 24:26.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% intent but standard scientific 24:26.500 --> 24:27.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% scrutiny of something. 24:27.866 --> 24:29.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Right, and this actually is a 24:29.433 --> 24:32.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% machine in which you can image, 24:32.066 --> 24:34.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% it's like... 24:34.266 --> 24:36.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% you're actually imaging light 24:36.166 --> 24:38.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% emissions as you heat a chemical 24:38.000 --> 24:39.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% element. 24:39.366 --> 24:40.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And then you see them fan out in 24:40.766 --> 24:42.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% the spectrum and that allows you 24:42.800 --> 24:44.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% to identify it. 24:44.133 --> 24:46.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% For instance, I did a chapter on 24:46.833 --> 24:48.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% a poison, thalium, which you 24:48.300 --> 24:50.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% don't see much now, but used to 24:50.366 --> 24:53.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% be used a lot, also in makeup 24:53.100 --> 24:56.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% and in rat poison. 24:56.333 --> 24:59.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And thalium makes this gorgeous, 24:59.200 --> 25:01.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% when you heat it, spring green 25:01.633 --> 25:02.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% line. 25:02.900 --> 25:05.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% It's like almost startling and 25:05.133 --> 25:06.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% beautiful when you see it in a 25:06.500 --> 25:08.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% machine like that. 25:08.166 --> 25:09.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% This is radium, again. 25:09.900 --> 25:13.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% You see the glowing lights there 25:13.500 --> 25:15.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% related to the luminescence, and 25:15.066 --> 25:17.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% I believe that that's Marie 25:17.066 --> 25:20.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% Curie, actually demonstrating 25:20.000 --> 25:21.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% her affection. 25:21.400 --> 25:22.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% She loved radium, she called it 25:22.866 --> 25:24.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% "my beautiful radium." 25:24.166 --> 25:25.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> She carried a piece. 25:25.366 --> 25:26.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> She did, she used to carry 25:26.566 --> 25:27.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% little vials of it in her 25:27.733 --> 25:29.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% pockets. 25:29.233 --> 25:31.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And she died of aplastic anemia. 25:31.366 --> 25:32.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> But there was no connection 25:32.700 --> 25:33.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% made at the time between her 25:33.933 --> 25:35.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% death and radium? 25:35.333 --> 25:38.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> She would never admit how 25:38.966 --> 25:40.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% dangerous it was. 25:40.366 --> 25:42.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% She really struggled with 25:42.166 --> 25:43.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% admitting that anything that she 25:43.733 --> 25:46.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% thought was so important and had 25:46.966 --> 25:49.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% done so much good in science was 25:49.633 --> 25:51.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% actually dangerous. 25:51.233 --> 25:52.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% She probably went to her grave 25:52.866 --> 25:55.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% never really accepting it. 25:55.233 --> 25:56.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Here's another sort of casual 25:56.633 --> 25:57.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% packaging approach. 25:57.800 --> 25:59.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% (both laugh) 25:59.200 --> 26:01.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> A nice little jug of mercury. 26:01.366 --> 26:02.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% Yeah, I was talking about 26:02.500 --> 26:03.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% mercury earlier with 26:03.666 --> 26:04.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Mercurochrome, but mercury was 26:04.900 --> 26:06.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% one of the famous poisons of the 26:06.233 --> 26:08.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% 1920s. 26:08.466 --> 26:11.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% People used it to treat 26:11.100 --> 26:12.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% infections. 26:12.233 --> 26:14.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% It was a really famous 26:14.200 --> 26:15.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% antiseptic, and they used to 26:15.533 --> 26:17.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% have it in an incredibly strong 26:17.700 --> 26:20.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% form, mercury bichloride, which 26:20.233 --> 26:22.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% is also called corrosive 26:22.133 --> 26:23.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% sublimate. 26:23.666 --> 26:25.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% We don't see this so much 26:25.600 --> 26:27.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% anymore, but mercury 26:27.400 --> 26:30.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% thermometers to test a fever 26:30.066 --> 26:31.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% used to be really popular. 26:31.600 --> 26:33.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% Now they're digital. 26:33.100 --> 26:34.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> The mercury, at least, was 26:34.066 --> 26:35.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% self-contained, right? 26:35.466 --> 26:36.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> If you look at this image, 26:36.666 --> 26:37.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% one of the things that makes 26:37.833 --> 26:39.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% pure mercury like this so 26:39.666 --> 26:43.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% interesting is that when it is 26:43.366 --> 26:45.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% liquid at atmospheric pressures, 26:45.800 --> 26:47.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% it forms these little balls. 26:47.633 --> 26:50.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% It's the most strange liquid. 26:50.033 --> 26:51.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Yeah, you get these little 26:51.100 --> 26:52.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% balls that roll around, but then 26:52.466 --> 26:55.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% they will sort of connect with 26:55.166 --> 26:57.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% each other, they'll pool. 26:57.166 --> 26:58.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> That's right, and if you 26:58.400 --> 27:00.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% touch them they break apart. 27:00.466 --> 27:01.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Yeah, when I was a kid, we used 27:01.600 --> 27:03.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% to do this for fun. 27:03.166 --> 27:04.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% You'd break your family 27:04.300 --> 27:05.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% thermometer and then play with 27:05.500 --> 27:07.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% the little mercury balls. 27:07.133 --> 27:08.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And the good thing is that it 27:08.700 --> 27:10.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% didn't absorb through your skin, 27:10.433 --> 27:12.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% it skitters off your skin. 27:12.033 --> 27:14.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Pure elemental mercury actually, 27:14.100 --> 27:16.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% people, not recently, but in the 27:16.766 --> 27:19.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% 1800s, used to drink cups of it. 27:19.766 --> 27:21.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They thought that it was somehow 27:21.466 --> 27:22.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% health-giving. 27:22.633 --> 27:23.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They'd swallow a cup, they'd get 27:23.933 --> 27:25.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% really inflamed tissues. 27:25.966 --> 27:27.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% But pretty much didn't acutely 27:27.966 --> 27:29.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% poison them, because it slid 27:29.600 --> 27:30.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% right through in that 27:30.600 --> 27:33.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% self-contained way. 27:33.000 --> 27:34.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% Other things, when you mix 27:34.433 --> 27:36.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% mercury into a salt, like 27:36.866 --> 27:39.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% bichloride of mercury, then it's 27:39.200 --> 27:41.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% really dangerous. 27:41.100 --> 27:42.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And so here in this collection 27:42.933 --> 27:44.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% of bottles, what you're going to 27:44.100 --> 27:46.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% see is mercury salts. 27:46.566 --> 27:48.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And they were common medicines. 27:48.400 --> 27:50.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> In the apothecary context, 27:50.133 --> 27:52.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% some of everything. 27:52.166 --> 27:54.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Well, let's talk murder now. 27:54.400 --> 27:55.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% we mentioned William Rice, 27:55.466 --> 27:57.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% founder of Rice University, year 27:57.100 --> 27:58.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% is 1900. 27:58.233 --> 27:59.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% >> Right. 27:59.833 --> 28:01.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> And somehow he runs afoul of 28:01.200 --> 28:02.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% chloroform. 28:02.366 --> 28:03.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% How would that not have been 28:03.333 --> 28:05.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% detected as a murder rather than 28:05.866 --> 28:07.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% as some kind of accident? 28:07.200 --> 28:08.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% >> Well, proving a poison 28:08.433 --> 28:09.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% especially in that time was very 28:09.700 --> 28:10.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% difficult. 28:10.966 --> 28:12.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% One of the things that makes 28:12.833 --> 28:16.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% poisoning so interesting is that 28:16.633 --> 28:17.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% you almost never see the person 28:17.933 --> 28:19.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% commit the crime. 28:19.533 --> 28:22.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And two, you have to figure out 28:22.833 --> 28:24.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% when and if they purchased the 28:24.900 --> 28:25.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% poison. 28:25.966 --> 28:27.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And if poisons are like common 28:27.333 --> 28:30.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% medicines, then you can't even 28:30.500 --> 28:32.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% prove intent, really. 28:32.033 --> 28:34.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% "Well, I had this with me. 28:34.233 --> 28:35.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% I need this medicine for this 28:35.733 --> 28:37.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% purpose. 28:37.366 --> 28:39.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% It was entirely innocent that 28:39.200 --> 28:40.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% this person, let's say, 28:40.966 --> 28:43.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% accidentally drank my medicine." 28:43.700 --> 28:45.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% >> So what do we think 28:45.333 --> 28:47.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% happened to William Rice? 28:47.533 --> 28:48.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> The theory with William Rice 28:48.766 --> 28:51.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% and chloroform was that a very 28:51.966 --> 28:54.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% conniving lawyer and his valet 28:54.300 --> 28:56.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% conspired to kill him. 28:56.600 --> 28:59.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% They had forged a will in which 28:59.233 --> 29:01.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% they both inherited. 29:01.166 --> 29:02.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And shortly after they forged 29:02.233 --> 29:06.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% this will, he mysteriously died. 29:06.100 --> 29:08.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And the valet actually confessed 29:08.100 --> 29:09.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% to killing him with chloroform. 29:09.900 --> 29:11.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% He had borrowed this chloroform. 29:11.566 --> 29:12.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% People actually would take 29:12.966 --> 29:14.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% chloroform sometimes as a 29:14.733 --> 29:17.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% medicine, even doctors would 29:17.100 --> 29:19.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% prescribe it in small doses if 29:19.066 --> 29:20.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% you were having trouble 29:20.066 --> 29:21.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% sleeping. 29:21.166 --> 29:22.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% >> Take a little whiff of 29:22.333 --> 29:23.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% chloroform. 29:23.500 --> 29:24.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> You'd have a little bottle of 29:24.566 --> 29:25.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% chloroform and a sponge. 29:25.900 --> 29:27.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And you'd put the sponge over 29:27.000 --> 29:28.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% your face and it would knock you 29:28.533 --> 29:29.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% out and you'd get a really great 29:29.900 --> 29:32.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% night's sleep, allegedly, right? 29:32.300 --> 29:35.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And this valet had borrowed his 29:35.200 --> 29:37.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% brother-in-law's chloroform and 29:37.233 --> 29:40.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% confessed to doing this. 29:40.233 --> 29:42.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% But again, and this is right in 29:42.233 --> 29:45.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the 1900s, people were not sure 29:45.133 --> 29:47.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% how to detect it in a body. 29:47.200 --> 29:48.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% So that you could have someone 29:48.600 --> 29:49.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% come in and say, "Yeah, I killed 29:49.633 --> 29:51.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:10% him. 29:51.000 --> 29:53.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% Yes, I used chloroform." 29:53.633 --> 29:54.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% But they didn't know how to 29:54.900 --> 29:56.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% find any evidence of that, so 29:56.200 --> 29:57.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% they didn't know if you were 29:57.933 --> 30:00.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% just the world's greatest 30:00.100 --> 30:01.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% show-off. 30:01.166 --> 30:02.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% "I want all this attention, I'm 30:02.300 --> 30:03.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% going to confess to killing a 30:03.766 --> 30:06.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% multi-millionaire." 30:06.066 --> 30:07.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% And in the case of the serial 30:07.300 --> 30:08.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% killer, Frederick Mors, 30:08.500 --> 30:09.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% I mentioned, 30:09.566 --> 30:10.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% it was the same thing. 30:10.666 --> 30:11.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% He walked into a police station, 30:11.866 --> 30:12.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% he confessed to killing eight 30:12.966 --> 30:14.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% people with chloroform. 30:14.266 --> 30:16.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They had all died in his care, 30:16.666 --> 30:18.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% but because they didn't know how 30:18.700 --> 30:21.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% to extract the chloroform - they 30:21.333 --> 30:22.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% did, they weren't aware that you 30:22.700 --> 30:23.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% could get the chloroform out of 30:23.866 --> 30:25.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% the body. 30:25.266 --> 30:26.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Because these were people in an 30:26.833 --> 30:28.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% old person's home, they could 30:28.133 --> 30:29.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% have died anyway, they could 30:29.866 --> 30:32.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% never make up their minds. 30:32.966 --> 30:34.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% At least the police were sure he 30:34.166 --> 30:36.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% did it, but the coroner less 30:36.233 --> 30:37.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% sure and so he just eventually 30:37.900 --> 30:39.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% disappeared. 30:39.933 --> 30:41.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% >> That name "Mors" was a 30:41.633 --> 30:42.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% pseudonym. 30:42.666 --> 30:44.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> It was, he had changed his 30:44.200 --> 30:46.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% name from - he was an immigrant 30:46.833 --> 30:48.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% from Austria. 30:48.366 --> 30:49.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% He had changed his name from the 30:49.666 --> 30:51.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% name "Menerick" to "Mors" 30:51.800 --> 30:53.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% because "mors" meant death and 30:53.933 --> 30:55.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% he had changed it right before 30:55.866 --> 30:57.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% he started killing people. 30:57.866 --> 30:59.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% So there was a lot of actually 30:59.000 --> 31:00.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% very good evidence that he had 31:00.766 --> 31:02.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% killed these people. 31:02.100 --> 31:03.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% There were other people who had 31:03.766 --> 31:07.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% seen him with chloroform and 31:07.766 --> 31:09.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% cotton in his pockets. 31:09.866 --> 31:11.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% They'd seen him in mysterious 31:11.333 --> 31:12.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% circumstances. 31:12.533 --> 31:13.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% He had a book about poisons in 31:13.633 --> 31:15.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% his closet, but they still did 31:15.733 --> 31:18.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% not actually put him away. 31:18.266 --> 31:19.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> There was one of the most 31:19.500 --> 31:20.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% notorious cases of the '20s 31:20.666 --> 31:23.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% involved an actress, by the name 31:23.800 --> 31:27.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% of Olive Thomas, and mercury. 31:27.033 --> 31:29.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% How was that ever settled and 31:29.400 --> 31:30.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% how did it come about in the 31:30.466 --> 31:31.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% first place? 31:31.533 --> 31:32.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% Accident or murder? 31:32.700 --> 31:34.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% >> No one knows. 31:34.000 --> 31:35.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% There are still plenty of people 31:35.933 --> 31:37.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% who think her husband, who was 31:37.233 --> 31:38.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% the younger brother of screen 31:38.933 --> 31:40.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% actress Mary Pickford, his name 31:40.733 --> 31:42.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% was Jack Pickford. 31:42.166 --> 31:43.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> And this is Olive here. 31:43.466 --> 31:45.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% >> This is Olive. 31:45.800 --> 31:48.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% She rocketed to fame out of New 31:48.300 --> 31:50.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% York and starting in about 31:50.000 --> 31:52.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% 1914-15 she won the "most 31:52.700 --> 31:53.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% beautiful girl in New York" 31:53.966 --> 31:55.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% contest. 31:55.400 --> 31:57.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% She was a Ziegfeld dancer. 31:57.333 --> 31:58.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> Not all of her pictures look 31:58.600 --> 32:00.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% quite this demure. 32:00.133 --> 32:01.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% >> Innocent? 32:01.466 --> 32:02.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% >> I guess, we mentioned 32:02.566 --> 32:03.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% Ziegfeld. 32:03.733 --> 32:05.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% There was also a man by the name 32:05.000 --> 32:07.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% of Vargas for whom she posed, 32:07.000 --> 32:08.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% and this is just part of that 32:08.266 --> 32:09.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% particular picture. 32:09.666 --> 32:11.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> Right, sort of the upper 32:11.066 --> 32:12.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% part. 32:12.933 --> 32:15.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% She was fairly fearless. 32:15.566 --> 32:18.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And shortly after she posed for 32:18.100 --> 32:20.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% this Vargas portrait, David 32:20.466 --> 32:21.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% South-- picked her up. 32:21.933 --> 32:23.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% She went to Hollywood. 32:23.400 --> 32:25.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% She was a rising star of kind of 32:25.733 --> 32:30.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% adventurous, charming, 32:30.600 --> 32:33.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% incurably brave young heroines. 32:33.133 --> 32:34.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% She was in "The Flapper," 32:34.300 --> 32:35.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% "Madcap Madge." 32:35.800 --> 32:37.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And she married Pickford. 32:37.966 --> 32:40.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They had a really wild marriage, 32:40.200 --> 32:41.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% lots of partying, lots of 32:41.633 --> 32:44.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% drinking, lots of infidelity, 32:44.900 --> 32:46.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% especially on his part. 32:46.666 --> 32:48.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% He developed syphilis. 32:48.600 --> 32:50.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And his doctor had prescribed a 32:50.533 --> 32:51.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% mercury compound for that, 32:51.866 --> 32:53.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% bichloride of mercury, which is 32:53.600 --> 32:54.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% one of these really toxic 32:54.833 --> 32:56.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% mercury salts we were talking 32:56.433 --> 32:57.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% about earlier. 32:57.966 --> 33:00.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And at one point, he suggested 33:00.600 --> 33:01.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% to her that they kind of have a 33:01.933 --> 33:04.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% make-up vacation and they went 33:04.966 --> 33:06.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% off to Paris. 33:06.766 --> 33:09.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% And one night... 33:09.033 --> 33:10.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% The only story that we know 33:10.233 --> 33:12.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% about this is his story, because 33:12.400 --> 33:13.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% she did not survive the 33:13.800 --> 33:15.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% vacation. 33:15.900 --> 33:17.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% One night he said they went back 33:17.866 --> 33:20.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% to the room really drunk. 33:20.033 --> 33:22.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% He got in bed and she went into 33:22.733 --> 33:24.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% the bathroom to kind of get 33:24.533 --> 33:27.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% ready for bed, and according to 33:27.000 --> 33:29.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% him, then accidentally drank his 33:29.200 --> 33:31.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% mercury bichloride. 33:31.966 --> 33:33.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And she lived about three more 33:33.300 --> 33:36.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% days before she died. 33:36.033 --> 33:37.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% It was a huge scandal at the 33:37.233 --> 33:38.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% time. 33:38.133 --> 33:39.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% It was about 1920. 33:39.366 --> 33:40.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Many, many people thought he'd 33:40.466 --> 33:41.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% killed her. 33:41.433 --> 33:43.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> What would be his motive? 33:43.166 --> 33:44.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> To get out of a marriage that 33:44.900 --> 33:47.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% was holding him back from other 33:47.166 --> 33:49.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% relationships. 33:49.233 --> 33:50.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And other people thought she'd 33:50.966 --> 33:52.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% committed suicide. 33:52.866 --> 33:54.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> You have three possibilities, 33:54.500 --> 33:55.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% don't you? 33:55.633 --> 33:56.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> You have three possibilities. 33:56.833 --> 33:58.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% That she just had it, that there 33:58.733 --> 33:59.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% was something that happened that 33:59.933 --> 34:03.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% night that he did not say. 34:03.033 --> 34:05.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% But again, imagine that he had 34:05.666 --> 34:09.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% killed her. 34:09.533 --> 34:10.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% He didn't go around killing 34:10.800 --> 34:12.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% anyone else, so it's sort of 34:12.700 --> 34:13.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% hard to say, yes, he did it. 34:13.900 --> 34:15.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% But imagine that he had. 34:15.200 --> 34:16.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% He innocently goes to Paris, he 34:16.700 --> 34:17.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% has this medicine that he's been 34:17.766 --> 34:19.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% prescribed. 34:19.233 --> 34:20.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% He's in a hotel room, this 34:20.800 --> 34:21.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% happened about 3:00 in the 34:21.866 --> 34:23.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% morning. 34:23.433 --> 34:26.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% She is dying when they leave the 34:26.700 --> 34:28.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% hotel room and the only person 34:28.133 --> 34:29.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% who tells this story is him. 34:29.966 --> 34:31.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% There would be no way to prove 34:31.133 --> 34:32.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% that, and there wasn't. 34:32.833 --> 34:34.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> There was another famous case 34:34.300 --> 34:35.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% of someone who literally got 34:35.633 --> 34:37.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% away with murder the first time, 34:37.366 --> 34:39.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% Ruth Snyder. 34:39.566 --> 34:42.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Yes, and that's a mercury and 34:42.000 --> 34:44.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% a whole lot of different poisons 34:44.000 --> 34:45.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% story. 34:45.266 --> 34:47.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Ruth Snyder was a kind of, also 34:47.966 --> 34:50.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% a lively young woman. 34:50.433 --> 34:52.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% She was blonde, very, you know. 34:52.500 --> 34:54.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% She had an abusive older husband 34:54.833 --> 34:58.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% and she took on a lover named 34:58.300 --> 35:00.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% Judd Gray. 35:00.466 --> 35:01.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% She was not a lovely person, 35:01.733 --> 35:03.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% either. 35:03.100 --> 35:04.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% She and Judd used to meet in New 35:04.200 --> 35:05.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% York City, and she had an 35:05.766 --> 35:07.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% eight-year-old daughter and she 35:07.366 --> 35:10.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% would meet at the Waldorf 35:10.366 --> 35:12.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Astoria in New York and have her 35:12.300 --> 35:14.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% daughter ride the escalators up 35:14.000 --> 35:15.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% and down till the tryst was 35:15.133 --> 35:17.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% over. 35:17.333 --> 35:19.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And eventually, she and her 35:19.600 --> 35:21.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% lover decided that they would 35:21.666 --> 35:23.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% get rid of her husband and they 35:23.800 --> 35:27.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% took out two insurance policies 35:27.733 --> 35:29.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% with double indemnity clauses. 35:29.500 --> 35:31.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% If he died an accidental death, 35:31.033 --> 35:33.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% they would get about $90,000 35:33.400 --> 35:34.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% which was a lot of money in the 35:34.800 --> 35:36.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% 1920s. 35:36.366 --> 35:38.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% Then she put mercury in his 35:38.766 --> 35:40.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% alcohol. 35:40.433 --> 35:42.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% It was 1920s, everyone was 35:42.500 --> 35:44.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% drinking bootleg alcohol. 35:44.433 --> 35:46.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% She spiked his alcohol and 35:46.366 --> 35:47.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% apparently she put way too much 35:47.400 --> 35:49.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% in it and it tasted really nasty 35:49.000 --> 35:50.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% and he didn't drink it. 35:50.633 --> 35:52.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So eventually they came up with 35:52.366 --> 35:53.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% a plot. 35:53.500 --> 35:54.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% They used chloroform to knock 35:54.600 --> 35:55.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% him out. 35:55.966 --> 35:58.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% They gave him poisoned alcohol. 35:58.166 --> 36:00.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Then when he didn't die fast 36:00.066 --> 36:02.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% enough, they hit him over the 36:02.333 --> 36:03.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% head with a sash weight and 36:03.600 --> 36:05.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% strangled him with picture wire. 36:05.366 --> 36:07.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And then after they had done 36:07.266 --> 36:08.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% this enormous mess they tried to 36:08.933 --> 36:11.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% stage a fake burglary and she 36:11.066 --> 36:13.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% claimed that a giant 36:13.100 --> 36:14.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Italian-American had come into 36:14.500 --> 36:17.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% the house, tied her up, and 36:17.233 --> 36:20.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% killed him. 36:20.066 --> 36:21.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Someone later, Damon Runyon, who 36:21.766 --> 36:23.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% was a famous columnist in the 36:23.033 --> 36:24.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Times, called it "the dumbbell 36:24.033 --> 36:26.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% murders" because Judd Gray had 36:26.800 --> 36:28.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% tied her up but he had tied her 36:28.600 --> 36:30.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% feet and not her hands, so no 36:30.733 --> 36:31.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% one could figure out why she 36:31.900 --> 36:34.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% just didn't untie her feet. 36:34.400 --> 36:35.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And there were other things that 36:35.600 --> 36:38.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% eventually went wrong with this. 36:38.233 --> 36:39.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Alexander Gettler testified in 36:39.566 --> 36:40.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% that trial and he actually 36:40.766 --> 36:43.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% testified that if they had just 36:43.033 --> 36:45.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% waited, he probably would have 36:45.100 --> 36:46.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% looked like he died of natural 36:46.600 --> 36:47.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% causes. 36:47.666 --> 36:48.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And both of these guys went to 36:48.766 --> 36:50.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% the electric chair. 36:50.166 --> 36:51.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> And that was the prototype 36:51.133 --> 36:52.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% for "The Postman Always Rings 36:52.133 --> 36:53.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% Twice"? 36:53.066 --> 36:54.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> "The Postman Always Rings 36:54.066 --> 36:56.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Twice," because James Cain said 36:56.500 --> 36:58.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% that he was fascinated by the 36:58.166 --> 36:59.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% themes of love and betrayal. 36:59.866 --> 37:01.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Because the part of the story I 37:01.600 --> 37:04.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% didn't just tell you was that 37:04.566 --> 37:06.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% once they were both arrested, 37:06.333 --> 37:08.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% they spent the entire rest of 37:08.166 --> 37:10.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% the trial and after the trial 37:10.833 --> 37:12.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% ratting each other out and 37:12.133 --> 37:13.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% blaming the whole thing on each 37:13.166 --> 37:15.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% other. 37:15.533 --> 37:18.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And Ruth actually did such a 37:18.933 --> 37:22.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% good job of blaming it on Judd 37:22.200 --> 37:24.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% that while she was in prison she 37:24.100 --> 37:25.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% got almost 200 marriage 37:25.533 --> 37:28.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:25% proposals. 37:28.266 --> 37:30.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% I know this happens nowadays, 37:30.333 --> 37:31.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% but it's really hard to imagine 37:31.466 --> 37:33.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% why anyone would want to propose 37:33.766 --> 37:35.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% to someone who had poisoned her 37:35.400 --> 37:36.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% husband's whiskey and hit him 37:36.633 --> 37:37.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% over the head with a sash 37:37.866 --> 37:40.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% weight. 37:40.033 --> 37:44.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And her execution, she was 37:44.333 --> 37:46.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% electrocuted at Sing Sing, is a 37:46.300 --> 37:49.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% really notorious journalism case 37:49.100 --> 37:51.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% because a newspaper reporter 37:51.066 --> 37:52.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% smuggled a camera in. 37:52.833 --> 37:54.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And he took a picture of her 37:54.633 --> 37:56.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% literally jittering with 37:56.500 --> 37:59.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% electricity in the chair. 37:59.200 --> 38:00.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And the front page, it was the 38:00.833 --> 38:02.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% New York Daily News, and the 38:02.033 --> 38:04.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% paper was just that picture. 38:04.300 --> 38:06.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And she was so notorious at that 38:06.233 --> 38:08.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% time that the front page of the 38:08.133 --> 38:09.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% paper was the picture of her in 38:09.666 --> 38:11.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% the electric chair and the word 38:11.333 --> 38:12.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% "Dead." 38:12.433 --> 38:14.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% And that was it. 38:14.333 --> 38:15.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And then they smuggled their 38:15.466 --> 38:17.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% photographer out of the country 38:17.233 --> 38:18.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% so he wouldn't be arrested. 38:18.900 --> 38:19.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> Interesting, having to do 38:19.866 --> 38:21.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% with, as long as we're talking 38:21.033 --> 38:22.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% about alcohol, which was just 38:22.300 --> 38:23.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% one of the things that they 38:23.600 --> 38:26.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% tried in the Snyder case. 38:26.300 --> 38:28.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% The US government also got into 38:28.000 --> 38:29.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% the act in terms of using 38:29.533 --> 38:31.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% alcohol as a poison. 38:31.266 --> 38:32.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Yeah, this to me was actually 38:32.833 --> 38:34.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% the most shocking story in the 38:34.400 --> 38:35.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% book. 38:35.666 --> 38:37.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% There are many homicidal killers 38:37.400 --> 38:40.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% in human history. 38:40.033 --> 38:41.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Mass poisonings by governments, 38:41.800 --> 38:43.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% especially American government, 38:43.500 --> 38:46.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% not so common. 38:46.333 --> 38:47.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So Prohibition turned out to be 38:47.833 --> 38:51.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% a very difficult law to enforce, 38:51.766 --> 38:54.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% and a huge failure. 38:54.000 --> 38:55.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% And if you look at what 38:55.566 --> 38:56.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% happened, if you just took New 38:56.966 --> 38:58.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% York as a model, instead of 38:58.800 --> 39:00.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% drinking less, people drank 39:00.033 --> 39:02.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% phenomenally more. 39:02.233 --> 39:04.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% In the 1920s, and in 1920 when 39:04.566 --> 39:05.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Prohibition started, there were 39:05.833 --> 39:07.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% no speakeasies, and at the end 39:07.333 --> 39:08.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% of the decade there were 30,000 39:08.766 --> 39:11.366 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% speakeasies in New York City. 39:11.366 --> 39:12.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> 30,000 in New York City. 39:12.633 --> 39:14.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% >> Yes. 39:14.066 --> 39:15.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And so the government got so 39:15.433 --> 39:17.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% frustrated by this, they 39:17.233 --> 39:18.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% realized that a lot of the 39:18.600 --> 39:20.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% whiskey that was going to the 39:20.033 --> 39:21.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% speakeasies was actually 39:21.533 --> 39:23.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% industrial alcohol that was 39:23.566 --> 39:25.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% being stolen by bootleggers. 39:25.066 --> 39:26.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% About 60 million gallons a year 39:26.900 --> 39:27.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% of industrial alcohol was being 39:27.900 --> 39:29.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% stolen. 39:29.433 --> 39:30.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And what the bootleggers would 39:30.833 --> 39:33.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% do is, distill out all the 39:33.266 --> 39:35.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% additives that make this not 39:35.200 --> 39:36.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% drinkable alcohol, it makes it 39:36.500 --> 39:38.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% taste bad, and then serve it. 39:38.800 --> 39:40.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% I mean, this was nasty alcohol 39:40.533 --> 39:41.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% anyway. 39:41.433 --> 39:42.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% >> Serving it straight? 39:42.533 --> 39:43.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> Yeah, they would serve it 39:43.733 --> 39:44.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:22.5% straight. 39:44.733 --> 39:46.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% Or, some of our favorite 39:46.133 --> 39:48.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% cocktails were invented in the 39:48.133 --> 39:49.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% 1920s to hide the taste. 39:49.933 --> 39:51.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% The screwdriver was invented 39:51.466 --> 39:53.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% then, my favorite, the sidecar, 39:53.733 --> 39:55.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% the bee's knees, I believe the 39:55.800 --> 39:58.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% Bloody Mary. 39:58.066 --> 39:59.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% All of these things that hid the 39:59.733 --> 40:02.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% taste of the bad alcohol. 40:02.333 --> 40:04.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% So the government said, fine. 40:04.466 --> 40:06.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% If we can't get people to just 40:06.166 --> 40:08.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% obey the law, we'll make this 40:08.700 --> 40:10.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% whiskey so dangerous they won't 40:10.300 --> 40:11.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% want to drink it. 40:11.600 --> 40:14.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% And they actually put an 40:14.266 --> 40:15.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% unbelievable number of poisons 40:15.666 --> 40:16.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% in industrial alcohol that 40:16.866 --> 40:18.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% couldn't be distilled out. 40:18.033 --> 40:19.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They put methyl alcohol, which 40:19.766 --> 40:21.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% is really lethal. 40:21.766 --> 40:23.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% It metabolizes in your body into 40:23.933 --> 40:25.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% formaldehyde, and formic acid. 40:25.833 --> 40:26.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% They put cyanide, they put 40:26.966 --> 40:28.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% mercury. 40:28.133 --> 40:29.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% They put arsenic, they put 40:29.233 --> 40:30.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% benzene. 40:30.766 --> 40:32.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% And literally once they started 40:32.200 --> 40:33.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% these new formulas, people 40:33.533 --> 40:34.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% started dropping dead in the 40:34.566 --> 40:36.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% street. 40:36.233 --> 40:38.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% More than 10,000 people were 40:38.500 --> 40:40.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% killed by this program. 40:40.400 --> 40:42.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> And the government, it never 40:42.866 --> 40:44.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% seemed to occur to anybody who 40:44.300 --> 40:46.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% came up with this idea that 40:46.200 --> 40:47.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% right away people would start 40:47.300 --> 40:48.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% dying but it wouldn't just be a 40:48.933 --> 40:50.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% deterrent, but it would actually 40:50.166 --> 40:51.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% kill people? 40:51.466 --> 40:52.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> You know, when you go back 40:52.900 --> 40:54.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% and you look at the newspapers 40:54.200 --> 40:56.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% of the time, you see, they used 40:56.633 --> 40:58.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% to have what they called "wet 40:58.400 --> 41:00.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% and dry" legislators. 41:00.666 --> 41:01.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And the "wets" wanted to get rid 41:01.866 --> 41:02.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% of Prohibition, and the "drys" 41:02.966 --> 41:04.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% wanted to keep it. 41:04.133 --> 41:05.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So you have the wet legislators 41:05.200 --> 41:06.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% saying, we've turned into the 41:06.466 --> 41:08.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% Lucrezia Borgia government, 41:08.533 --> 41:10.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% where we're murdering people. 41:10.333 --> 41:11.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And you have the dry legislators 41:11.500 --> 41:12.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% saying, well, they just 41:12.566 --> 41:14.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% shouldn't drink it, then. 41:14.000 --> 41:15.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% They're morally corrupt anyway. 41:15.833 --> 41:18.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% So Prohibition was a moral 41:18.333 --> 41:19.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% crusade. 41:19.766 --> 41:21.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% With all the religious fervor of 41:21.800 --> 41:23.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% a moral crusade. 41:23.133 --> 41:24.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% So they considered these guys 41:24.766 --> 41:25.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% kind of collateral damage to the 41:25.966 --> 41:29.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% wind. 41:29.333 --> 41:30.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> They were kind of weeding out 41:30.333 --> 41:31.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% the ones who weren't really good 41:31.433 --> 41:32.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% citizens anyway. 41:32.533 --> 41:33.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% >> That's right. 41:33.400 --> 41:34.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% These were law breakers. 41:34.633 --> 41:35.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% They were breaking the law, they 41:35.833 --> 41:37.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% didn't have enough self-control 41:37.266 --> 41:38.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% not to drink. 41:38.400 --> 41:39.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% They weren't good people. 41:39.766 --> 41:41.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And you heard all of those 41:41.200 --> 41:42.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% answers. 41:42.533 --> 41:43.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And in the dry newspapers of the 41:43.733 --> 41:45.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% time, there was actually one 41:45.600 --> 41:47.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% editorial that said, "Is it the 41:47.000 --> 41:49.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% government's responsibility to 41:49.033 --> 41:51.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% protect the lives of souses?" 41:51.700 --> 41:55.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% So it was an enormous divide. 41:55.200 --> 41:56.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% Both Norris and Gettler were 41:56.633 --> 41:59.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% furious about this. 41:59.000 --> 42:00.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They bitterly crusaded for it. 42:00.666 --> 42:01.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And Norris actually wrote a 42:01.900 --> 42:03.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% national magazine article that 42:03.300 --> 42:04.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% he titled "Our Essay in 42:04.400 --> 42:06.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% Extermination," in which he 42:06.433 --> 42:07.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% basically said what everyone 42:07.933 --> 42:10.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% else was saying, "You're killing 42:10.300 --> 42:13.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% a lot of people, please stop." 42:13.033 --> 42:14.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% To no effect. 42:14.266 --> 42:16.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Eventually what happened was, it 42:16.266 --> 42:17.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% didn't stop people from 42:17.300 --> 42:19.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% drinking, which is kind of one 42:19.333 --> 42:20.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% of the phenomenally interesting 42:20.666 --> 42:21.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% things about the culture of the 42:21.800 --> 42:23.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% 1920s. 42:23.200 --> 42:24.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% People just didn't want the 42:24.533 --> 42:25.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% government to tell them how to 42:25.566 --> 42:26.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% behave. 42:26.666 --> 42:27.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> There was a real culture of 42:27.800 --> 42:28.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% getting away with things. 42:28.900 --> 42:30.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% >> Yes. 42:30.133 --> 42:31.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% >> It was fun and a way of 42:31.700 --> 42:33.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% expressing your independence. 42:33.300 --> 42:34.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> It was probably, to me, one 42:34.466 --> 42:35.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% of the more anarchistic decades 42:35.966 --> 42:38.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% of United States history. 42:38.133 --> 42:39.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> The more control, the more 42:39.166 --> 42:40.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% anarchy in response. 42:40.233 --> 42:41.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Yes, that's exactly right. 42:41.466 --> 42:42.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% So people continued drinking, 42:42.700 --> 42:44.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% and they continued dying. 42:44.033 --> 42:45.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> So was there such a thing, 42:45.800 --> 42:47.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% Deborah, as the "golden age of 42:47.000 --> 42:48.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% poison"? 42:48.300 --> 42:49.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And if so, what would have 42:49.466 --> 42:51.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% brought it to a close? 42:51.266 --> 42:53.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Well, one was the rise of the 42:53.866 --> 42:54.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% Norris and Gettlers of the 42:54.866 --> 42:56.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% world. 42:56.033 --> 42:57.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% They trained the next 42:57.400 --> 42:58.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% generation, they used to call 42:58.533 --> 42:59.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% them the "Gettler Boys," the 42:59.533 --> 43:00.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% next generation of forensic 43:00.700 --> 43:02.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% toxicologists. 43:02.200 --> 43:04.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% So you get really good science. 43:04.200 --> 43:05.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% It's no longer as easy to get 43:05.433 --> 43:06.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:32.5% away with it. 43:06.700 --> 43:08.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And if it's not as easy to get 43:08.033 --> 43:09.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% away with it, it's not as much 43:09.133 --> 43:11.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% fun, right? 43:11.400 --> 43:13.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% And you get better public 43:13.200 --> 43:14.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% health. 43:14.566 --> 43:17.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% The world really changed in this 43:17.600 --> 43:19.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% period in interesting ways that 43:19.233 --> 43:21.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% protect us now. 43:21.133 --> 43:22.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> So there was some psychology 43:22.733 --> 43:24.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:35% that came out. 43:24.000 --> 43:25.933 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% Is there anything that, in terms 43:25.933 --> 43:27.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% of the psychology, that you 43:27.666 --> 43:29.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% think is a common thread among 43:29.166 --> 43:32.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% these users of poison? 43:32.133 --> 43:34.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% >> The homicidal poisoners? 43:34.200 --> 43:35.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% They believe they can get away 43:35.333 --> 43:36.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% with it. 43:36.466 --> 43:38.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% I mean, poisoners are the most 43:38.166 --> 43:39.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% interesting killers to me, 43:39.900 --> 43:42.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% because you never have an 43:42.133 --> 43:44.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% impulse killing. 43:44.400 --> 43:46.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% All poisonings are premeditated. 43:46.700 --> 43:48.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> Sometimes they take time to 43:48.466 --> 43:50.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:17.5% unfold. 43:50.200 --> 43:51.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% >> And poisoners are willing to 43:51.433 --> 43:52.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% wait. 43:52.600 --> 43:53.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Because what they want to do is 43:53.966 --> 43:57.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% get away with it, and they do. 43:57.200 --> 43:58.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% A lot of poisoners, the biggest 43:58.433 --> 43:59.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% mistake they make is that they 43:59.700 --> 44:00.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% then kill again and get caught 44:00.800 --> 44:01.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% the second time. 44:01.966 --> 44:02.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> And we did have a case of 44:02.966 --> 44:04.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% that. 44:04.466 --> 44:06.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> So, and one of the stories in 44:06.333 --> 44:07.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% my book, I have an arsenic 44:07.633 --> 44:10.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% murderess, Fanny Creighton, who 44:10.666 --> 44:12.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% in the early 1920s - actually, I 44:12.900 --> 44:14.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% really like this story for two 44:14.133 --> 44:15.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% reasons. 44:15.066 --> 44:16.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% In the early 1920s, she kills 44:16.833 --> 44:18.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% her 17-year-old brother with 44:18.266 --> 44:20.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% arsenic and gets away with it 44:20.000 --> 44:21.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:40% and gets $1,000. 44:21.633 --> 44:22.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% She'd insured his life before 44:22.900 --> 44:24.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% she killed him. 44:24.600 --> 44:27.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Part of the problem was, again, 44:27.166 --> 44:29.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% you know, there's too much 44:29.400 --> 44:30.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% arsenic around. 44:30.966 --> 44:32.333 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And science at that point wasn't 44:32.333 --> 44:33.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% good enough to identify the 44:33.600 --> 44:35.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% source of the poison, so they 44:35.066 --> 44:36.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% could never figure out where the 44:36.233 --> 44:38.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% poison came from. 44:38.566 --> 44:41.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> In 1935, she's involved in 44:41.033 --> 44:42.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% quite a complicated scheme that 44:42.600 --> 44:44.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% involves the murder, that she 44:44.600 --> 44:45.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% and her husband are still 44:45.700 --> 44:48.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% together, sharing a house. 44:48.666 --> 44:50.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% She decides to get rid of the 44:50.500 --> 44:54.766 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% other woman in the house, and 44:54.766 --> 44:56.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% there's a very complicated 44:56.433 --> 44:59.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% scheme in which she murders this 44:59.433 --> 45:01.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:30% other woman. 45:01.033 --> 45:02.200 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% She wants her daughter to marry 45:02.200 --> 45:04.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% the other husband. 45:04.000 --> 45:05.600 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And in this case, she uses a rat 45:05.600 --> 45:07.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% poison and the science is so 45:07.900 --> 45:09.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% good that they're not only able 45:09.500 --> 45:11.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% to figure out that it's a rat 45:11.466 --> 45:12.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% poison that is the arsenic, they 45:12.900 --> 45:14.733 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% can identify the brand. 45:14.733 --> 45:15.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% And once they identify the 45:15.800 --> 45:16.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% brand, they're able to find 45:16.966 --> 45:18.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% where she buys it. 45:18.466 --> 45:19.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And this time, she goes to the 45:19.666 --> 45:21.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:37.5% electric chair. 45:21.233 --> 45:23.700 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% And while she's in prison, she 45:23.700 --> 45:25.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% says, "Yeah, okay, I admit it. 45:25.100 --> 45:27.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% I killed my brother." 45:27.000 --> 45:29.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% So you see a much better 45:29.033 --> 45:30.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:20% science. 45:30.900 --> 45:32.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And you see an acceptance of the 45:32.833 --> 45:36.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% scientific expert. 45:36.233 --> 45:37.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% And you see the whole thing 45:37.300 --> 45:39.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% closing around her. 45:39.800 --> 45:42.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% So that now these poisoners, I 45:42.033 --> 45:43.233 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% mean, look at this. 45:43.233 --> 45:44.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% She got away with it once, 45:44.433 --> 45:45.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:15% right? 45:45.633 --> 45:47.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% And the second time she doesn't. 45:47.566 --> 45:48.833 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% And so you see this enormous 45:48.833 --> 45:50.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% change in the ability of science 45:50.433 --> 45:51.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% to catch a poisoner. 45:51.866 --> 45:53.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> She sort of brackets that 45:53.166 --> 45:55.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:57.5% whole age, doesn't she? 45:55.033 --> 45:56.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% In a kind of Hitchcockian way. 45:56.800 --> 45:57.966 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% You might get away with it once, 45:57.966 --> 45:59.666 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:67.5% but try it again and you're 45:59.666 --> 46:01.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% overplaying your hand. 46:01.066 --> 46:03.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:75% >> She also eventually went to 46:03.066 --> 46:04.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:47.5% the electric chair. 46:04.800 --> 46:06.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% Her husband refused to take the 46:06.400 --> 46:07.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% body. 46:07.500 --> 46:09.900 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% She's buried at Sing Sing. 46:09.900 --> 46:12.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Well, on that not entirely 46:12.166 --> 46:13.166 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:42.5% cheerful note for 46:13.166 --> 46:14.566 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:45% the perpetrator... 46:14.566 --> 46:15.633 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% >> But optimistic for the 46:15.633 --> 46:16.466 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:27.5% rest of us. 46:16.466 --> 46:17.433 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% >> Optimistic for the rest of 46:17.433 --> 46:18.500 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:7.5% us. 46:18.500 --> 46:20.266 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:77.5% We'll take leave of that poison 46:20.266 --> 46:23.866 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% in the Jazz Age New York, but 46:23.866 --> 46:27.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% fascinating tour of cases and 46:27.033 --> 46:29.300 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:62.5% perpetrators and sleuths. 46:29.300 --> 46:30.800 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:80% >> Thank you, it's really been a 46:30.800 --> 46:32.533 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:50% pleasure being here. 46:32.533 --> 46:34.033 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:70% >> My guest has been Deborah 46:34.033 --> 46:35.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:12.5% Blum. 46:35.400 --> 46:36.400 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:60% She's the author of "The 46:36.400 --> 46:38.000 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% Poisoner's Handbook." 46:38.000 --> 46:39.066 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:52.5% I'm Norman Gilliland, 46:39.066 --> 46:40.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:55% thanks for joining me. 46:40.133 --> 46:41.100 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:72.5% I hope you'll be with me next 46:41.100 --> 46:43.133 align:start position:10% line:84.66% size:65% time for University Place.