1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000
cc

2
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000
>> Norman Gilliland: Welcome to

3
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,133
University Place.

4
00:00:05,133 --> 00:00:06,166
I'm Norman Gilliland, Wisconsin

5
00:00:06,166 --> 00:00:08,166
Public Broadcasting.

6
00:00:08,166 --> 00:00:10,666
Prohibition gave many Americans,

7
00:00:10,666 --> 00:00:12,600
otherwise law-abiding people,

8
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,866
the idea that breaking the law

9
00:00:14,866 --> 00:00:17,166
could be fun.

10
00:00:17,166 --> 00:00:19,733
And if the crime was really big,

11
00:00:19,733 --> 00:00:21,866
well, the bigger the thrill.

12
00:00:21,866 --> 00:00:23,533
If the crime was murder, well,

13
00:00:23,533 --> 00:00:24,633
you couldn't get much more

14
00:00:24,633 --> 00:00:25,900
thrilling than that.

15
00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:27,300
And one of the best ways to

16
00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:30,033
commit murder in the 1920s was

17
00:00:30,033 --> 00:00:32,333
to use poison, partly because

18
00:00:32,333 --> 00:00:34,100
there was so much poison in

19
00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:36,033
everyday life, anyhow.

20
00:00:36,033 --> 00:00:38,133
So how could the law determine

21
00:00:38,133 --> 00:00:40,866
what was an accident and what

22
00:00:40,866 --> 00:00:42,533
was murder, if poison was

23
00:00:42,533 --> 00:00:44,800
involved?

24
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,333
Well, our guest will tell us.

25
00:00:46,333 --> 00:00:49,300
She's Deborah Blum, professor of

26
00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:50,533
science journalism at the

27
00:00:50,533 --> 00:00:51,900
University of Wisconsin-Madison

28
00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:52,933
and the author of

29
00:00:52,933 --> 00:00:55,000
"The Poisoner's Handbook:

30
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,200
Murder and the Birth

31
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,533
of Forensic Medicine

32
00:00:58,533 --> 00:01:00,966
in Jazz Age New York."

33
00:01:00,966 --> 00:01:02,400
Glad to have you

34
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:03,566
on University Place.

35
00:01:03,566 --> 00:01:04,533
>> Deborah Blum: Thanks

36
00:01:04,533 --> 00:01:05,500
for having me.

37
00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:06,366
>> I'm sure we'll get some

38
00:01:06,366 --> 00:01:07,866
secrets here that probably

39
00:01:07,866 --> 00:01:09,800
should stay here rather than be

40
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,933
put into use in the home.

41
00:01:11,933 --> 00:01:13,133
>> I try not to give, like,

42
00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:14,600
murder instructions when I'm

43
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:15,833
talking about the book.

44
00:01:15,833 --> 00:01:17,066
( both laugh )

45
00:01:17,066 --> 00:01:18,866
>> Well, we start with

46
00:01:18,866 --> 00:01:20,733
this fantastic cauldron of

47
00:01:20,733 --> 00:01:22,133
activity, the 1920s, the Jazz

48
00:01:22,133 --> 00:01:25,033
Age and science really taking

49
00:01:25,033 --> 00:01:27,066
off more than ever, and crime

50
00:01:27,066 --> 00:01:29,933
doing likewise.

51
00:01:29,933 --> 00:01:31,300
And criminals, perhaps, becoming

52
00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:32,666
even more scientific in their

53
00:01:32,666 --> 00:01:33,733
methods.

54
00:01:33,733 --> 00:01:36,866
So did the law manage to keep up

55
00:01:36,866 --> 00:01:38,100
with the criminals when it came

56
00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:40,133
to poison in Jazz Age New York?

57
00:01:40,133 --> 00:01:41,200
>> Well, at the start they

58
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,533
really didn't.

59
00:01:42,533 --> 00:01:45,633
There was not a good

60
00:01:45,633 --> 00:01:47,466
relationship between scientists

61
00:01:47,466 --> 00:01:48,700
and the police.

62
00:01:48,700 --> 00:01:50,433
They weren't used to using them.

63
00:01:50,433 --> 00:01:51,400
The city of New York in

64
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,400
particular had not had

65
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,900
professional scientists really

66
00:01:54,900 --> 00:01:56,500
looking at poisons, so at the

67
00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:58,833
start of the Jazz Age, this

68
00:01:58,833 --> 00:02:00,933
really interesting situation

69
00:02:00,933 --> 00:02:02,700
where scientists are trying to

70
00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:04,166
figure out how to integrate

71
00:02:04,166 --> 00:02:05,133
themselves into the criminal

72
00:02:05,133 --> 00:02:06,700
justice system.

73
00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:08,333
There isn't a good sort of

74
00:02:08,333 --> 00:02:10,166
foundation of chemistry to

75
00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:12,666
understand poisons.

76
00:02:12,666 --> 00:02:14,066
And poisoners are really just

77
00:02:14,066 --> 00:02:16,766
one step ahead of the game when

78
00:02:16,766 --> 00:02:18,466
the Jazz Age starts.

79
00:02:18,466 --> 00:02:19,566
It makes it a very interesting

80
00:02:19,566 --> 00:02:21,100
period.

81
00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:22,033
>> So what were some of the

82
00:02:22,033 --> 00:02:23,733
poisons that were out there?

83
00:02:23,733 --> 00:02:25,366
And first, before we even get to

84
00:02:25,366 --> 00:02:27,133
that, who were some of the

85
00:02:27,133 --> 00:02:29,500
sleuths working for the side of

86
00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:31,400
goodness and truth?

87
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:32,466
>> It's kind of fantastic when

88
00:02:32,466 --> 00:02:34,033
you look at the period because

89
00:02:34,033 --> 00:02:37,200
it was so easy to get poisons.

90
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,800
You could go, even a child could

91
00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,166
go to a grocery store and get

92
00:02:40,166 --> 00:02:41,366
arsenic.

93
00:02:41,366 --> 00:02:42,900
It was in all kinds of regularly

94
00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:44,900
used household ingredients, from

95
00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:48,233
cosmetics to rat poison.

96
00:02:48,233 --> 00:02:50,633
Mercury was in common medicines,

97
00:02:50,633 --> 00:02:51,766
again, and mercury is a

98
00:02:51,766 --> 00:02:54,666
tremendous poison.

99
00:02:54,666 --> 00:02:56,333
Radioactive materials were

100
00:02:56,333 --> 00:02:58,400
available in makeup and health

101
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,100
drinks.

102
00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:01,366
I'm trying to think of another

103
00:03:01,366 --> 00:03:02,766
really good one.

104
00:03:02,766 --> 00:03:03,966
Poisons were everywhere.

105
00:03:03,966 --> 00:03:06,033
Cyanide was used commonly in

106
00:03:06,033 --> 00:03:08,600
photo processing and strychnine

107
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,133
was used as a stimulant, so if

108
00:03:10,133 --> 00:03:11,433
you really wanted to get your

109
00:03:11,433 --> 00:03:12,966
hands on a poison, they were

110
00:03:12,966 --> 00:03:14,266
right there.

111
00:03:14,266 --> 00:03:15,566
And the book, "The Poisoner's

112
00:03:15,566 --> 00:03:18,000
Handbook," really follows the

113
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,533
efforts of two scientists in

114
00:03:19,533 --> 00:03:21,500
particular to try to get a

115
00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:24,133
handle on this and to get ahead

116
00:03:24,133 --> 00:03:25,566
of poisoners.

117
00:03:25,566 --> 00:03:26,733
And one of them was Charles

118
00:03:26,733 --> 00:03:28,533
Norris, who was the first

119
00:03:28,533 --> 00:03:30,166
professional medical examiner in

120
00:03:30,166 --> 00:03:31,600
New York City.

121
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,433
He came in in 1918.

122
00:03:33,433 --> 00:03:34,633
And one of the first things he

123
00:03:34,633 --> 00:03:37,300
did was hire the first forensic

124
00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:39,300
chemist ever attached to a city

125
00:03:39,300 --> 00:03:40,866
in the United States.

126
00:03:40,866 --> 00:03:41,900
And his name was Alexander

127
00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:42,933
Gettler.

128
00:03:42,933 --> 00:03:44,100
>> Was this an uphill struggle?

129
00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:45,133
Was this considered a

130
00:03:45,133 --> 00:03:47,066
newfangled, expensive,

131
00:03:47,066 --> 00:03:48,466
speculative form of crime

132
00:03:48,466 --> 00:03:49,533
busting?

133
00:03:49,533 --> 00:03:51,466
>> It was an incredible uphill

134
00:03:51,466 --> 00:03:52,600
struggle.

135
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,533
And in fact, when Norris came

136
00:03:54,533 --> 00:03:56,400
in, New York and actually most

137
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,800
cities had an electoral

138
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,500
appointed coroner system.

139
00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:01,700
The cities didn't require the

140
00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:02,900
coroner to have any medical

141
00:04:02,900 --> 00:04:04,033
training.

142
00:04:04,033 --> 00:04:05,033
New York's coroners had been

143
00:04:05,033 --> 00:04:07,400
sign painters and milkmen.

144
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,466
And so the police had spent

145
00:04:09,466 --> 00:04:12,100
literally years avoiding the

146
00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:14,633
so-called "science of crime" and

147
00:04:14,633 --> 00:04:16,633
so not only did they have to

148
00:04:16,633 --> 00:04:18,600
invent the science that kind of

149
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,566
defined the poisons, they had to

150
00:04:20,566 --> 00:04:23,066
persuade their colleagues in the

151
00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:25,000
police and in the courts that

152
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,266
they actually were worth

153
00:04:26,266 --> 00:04:27,900
listening to.

154
00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:28,966
>> This took some money, too, of

155
00:04:28,966 --> 00:04:30,033
course, which couldn't have been

156
00:04:30,033 --> 00:04:31,333
easy, even in the '20s.

157
00:04:31,333 --> 00:04:34,466
>> It did, and because people

158
00:04:34,466 --> 00:04:36,833
were so used to the old system,

159
00:04:36,833 --> 00:04:38,100
the government of New York was

160
00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:40,666
really resistant to funding

161
00:04:40,666 --> 00:04:42,766
Norris's office.

162
00:04:42,766 --> 00:04:44,433
The great thing was the Norris

163
00:04:44,433 --> 00:04:45,533
was actually independently

164
00:04:45,533 --> 00:04:49,933
wealthy, and he spent thousands

165
00:04:49,933 --> 00:04:51,800
of dollars, which in the 1920s

166
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,000
was lots of money, thousands of

167
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,800
dollars of his own money.

168
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:57,933
He bought equipment for the

169
00:04:57,933 --> 00:05:01,733
laboratory, he paid salaries.

170
00:05:01,733 --> 00:05:03,000
There was one mayor he was

171
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,133
fighting with who took the

172
00:05:04,133 --> 00:05:05,500
clocks off the walls.

173
00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:07,033
He bought the clocks and put

174
00:05:07,033 --> 00:05:08,533
them back.

175
00:05:08,533 --> 00:05:09,933
So one of the things I've always

176
00:05:09,933 --> 00:05:11,133
thought when you look at these

177
00:05:11,133 --> 00:05:13,133
two guys is, you have Norris,

178
00:05:13,133 --> 00:05:15,766
who's a natural public servant,

179
00:05:15,766 --> 00:05:17,433
and willing to put his own money

180
00:05:17,433 --> 00:05:18,466
into it, which you don't see

181
00:05:18,466 --> 00:05:20,366
that often today.

182
00:05:20,366 --> 00:05:22,033
And you have Gettler, who's the

183
00:05:22,033 --> 00:05:23,766
most obsessive chemist in the

184
00:05:23,766 --> 00:05:24,833
world.

185
00:05:24,833 --> 00:05:26,333
Maybe not the world, but one of

186
00:05:26,333 --> 00:05:29,800
the most obsessive, determined,

187
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,933
foot solider chemists.

188
00:05:31,933 --> 00:05:33,533
And they come together and they

189
00:05:33,533 --> 00:05:35,200
really reinvent forensic

190
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,166
medicine in the United States.

191
00:05:38,166 --> 00:05:39,433
Gettler is called the father of

192
00:05:39,433 --> 00:05:41,500
forensic toxicology, in fact.

193
00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:42,633
>> Well, before we get into some

194
00:05:42,633 --> 00:05:44,600
of their specific cases, some of

195
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,000
them spectacular, let's look at

196
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,733
this sort of rogue's gallery of

197
00:05:47,733 --> 00:05:49,333
poisons that were out there and

198
00:05:49,333 --> 00:05:51,933
fairly readily available.

199
00:05:51,933 --> 00:05:53,366
>> Arsenic.

200
00:05:53,366 --> 00:05:55,666
And arsenic had been the

201
00:05:55,666 --> 00:05:58,000
homicidal killer's best friend

202
00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,200
for really a couple of

203
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,733
centuries.

204
00:06:01,733 --> 00:06:03,066
It started to sort of lose that

205
00:06:03,066 --> 00:06:04,633
grip in the 1900s.

206
00:06:04,633 --> 00:06:06,566
Arsenic is a wonderful poison

207
00:06:06,566 --> 00:06:08,533
because it's tasteless, it's

208
00:06:08,533 --> 00:06:10,333
odorless.

209
00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:11,800
Ground fine it has almost no

210
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,266
texture, so poisoners could put

211
00:06:13,266 --> 00:06:15,866
it into food.

212
00:06:15,866 --> 00:06:17,333
It would mimic the symptoms, and

213
00:06:17,333 --> 00:06:19,933
it does, of a natural illness.

214
00:06:19,933 --> 00:06:21,966
And because scientists, up until

215
00:06:21,966 --> 00:06:23,733
about the 1900s, did not know

216
00:06:23,733 --> 00:06:26,233
how to extract arsenic from the

217
00:06:26,233 --> 00:06:28,133
tissues of a corpse, there was

218
00:06:28,133 --> 00:06:30,266
no way to prove it was a poison.

219
00:06:30,266 --> 00:06:32,733
And so arsenic was actually the

220
00:06:32,733 --> 00:06:34,500
first poison that scientists

221
00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:36,366
tried to get a grip on.

222
00:06:36,366 --> 00:06:40,533
Cyanide, which you can get from,

223
00:06:40,533 --> 00:06:43,133
actually, extracted from the

224
00:06:43,133 --> 00:06:45,533
pits of apricots and peaches.

225
00:06:45,533 --> 00:06:46,533
>> You could make your own

226
00:06:46,533 --> 00:06:47,433
cyanide?

227
00:06:47,433 --> 00:06:49,533
>> If you really wanted to, and

228
00:06:49,533 --> 00:06:50,833
it would be laborious, you could

229
00:06:50,833 --> 00:06:53,766
make your own cyanide.

230
00:06:53,766 --> 00:06:55,266
So you had cyanide, cyanide was

231
00:06:55,266 --> 00:06:56,633
widely available.

232
00:06:56,633 --> 00:07:00,400
Mercury was in medicines.

233
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:01,733
What else?

234
00:07:01,733 --> 00:07:03,133
Antimony, which I don't go into

235
00:07:03,133 --> 00:07:04,466
in the book, which is related to

236
00:07:04,466 --> 00:07:06,500
arsenic.

237
00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:08,466
One of the most interesting

238
00:07:08,466 --> 00:07:09,766
poisons to me is one we still

239
00:07:09,766 --> 00:07:10,933
have today, which is carbon

240
00:07:10,933 --> 00:07:12,300
monoxide.

241
00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:13,366
At that point, you had gas

242
00:07:13,366 --> 00:07:14,533
lighting.

243
00:07:14,533 --> 00:07:17,633
It was really easy to stage a

244
00:07:17,633 --> 00:07:19,733
murder, essentially, with carbon

245
00:07:19,733 --> 00:07:22,000
monoxide, and people did that.

246
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,233
And carbon monoxide's a

247
00:07:23,233 --> 00:07:25,600
beautiful and lethal poison.

248
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,866
>> Yes, easily fatal.

249
00:07:28,866 --> 00:07:30,666
>> And radium.

250
00:07:30,666 --> 00:07:31,866
Radium's an interesting poison

251
00:07:31,866 --> 00:07:34,133
because it's a radioactive

252
00:07:34,133 --> 00:07:37,033
element.

253
00:07:37,033 --> 00:07:39,166
And at that time, people thought

254
00:07:39,166 --> 00:07:40,600
of radioactive elements as

255
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,300
wonderful things, so their

256
00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:44,700
attitude toward it throughout

257
00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:46,566
the 1920s was very different

258
00:07:46,566 --> 00:07:48,133
than what we have today.

259
00:07:48,133 --> 00:07:50,000
And now, you see, like in

260
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,966
espionage cases.

261
00:07:51,966 --> 00:07:54,000
A few years ago they had a

262
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,366
former Russian spy who was

263
00:07:57,366 --> 00:07:59,400
killed with polonium 210, which

264
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,466
is sort of a structural cousin

265
00:08:01,466 --> 00:08:03,300
of radium, also discovered by

266
00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:05,066
Marie Curie.

267
00:08:05,066 --> 00:08:06,333
Now we'll look at these and

268
00:08:06,333 --> 00:08:07,333
we'll say, oh, this is something

269
00:08:07,333 --> 00:08:08,600
dangerous.

270
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:09,566
>> They take longer, though,

271
00:08:09,566 --> 00:08:11,166
don't they, those radioactivity

272
00:08:11,166 --> 00:08:12,466
related deaths?

273
00:08:12,466 --> 00:08:13,566
Certainly that Russian spy took

274
00:08:13,566 --> 00:08:14,666
a while.

275
00:08:14,666 --> 00:08:15,633
>> Right, and again, it's dose

276
00:08:15,633 --> 00:08:17,466
related.

277
00:08:17,466 --> 00:08:19,433
If you had a major blast of

278
00:08:19,433 --> 00:08:20,733
radiation you'd probably die a

279
00:08:20,733 --> 00:08:23,333
lot faster, but the problem for

280
00:08:23,333 --> 00:08:25,466
that guy and in some of the

281
00:08:25,466 --> 00:08:27,133
stories I tell in the book is,

282
00:08:27,133 --> 00:08:28,900
they work particularly well if

283
00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:31,533
you swallow them, because some

284
00:08:31,533 --> 00:08:33,333
of their radiation our skin

285
00:08:33,333 --> 00:08:34,866
protects us from.

286
00:08:34,866 --> 00:08:36,933
But once you get it inside, it's

287
00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:38,266
a different story.

288
00:08:38,266 --> 00:08:39,233
>> What about good old-fashioned

289
00:08:39,233 --> 00:08:40,266
chloroform?

290
00:08:40,266 --> 00:08:41,233
We usually think of that as

291
00:08:41,233 --> 00:08:42,266
something just to knock somebody

292
00:08:42,266 --> 00:08:44,100
out, but actually it could also

293
00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:45,700
be used to kill people?

294
00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:46,833
>> Oh, that's a good point.

295
00:08:46,833 --> 00:08:48,033
Chloroform is really the poison

296
00:08:48,033 --> 00:08:49,333
I used when I started the book,

297
00:08:49,333 --> 00:08:50,766
because I was tracking a

298
00:08:50,766 --> 00:08:52,666
chloroform serial killer who

299
00:08:52,666 --> 00:08:55,966
confessed and still actually

300
00:08:55,966 --> 00:08:57,700
walked away.

301
00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:59,900
And one of the reasons he was

302
00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:01,500
able to walk away is that the

303
00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:03,300
coroner who took on his case

304
00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:04,666
didn't know anything about the

305
00:09:04,666 --> 00:09:06,300
science of chloroform, and

306
00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:07,366
didn't realize they could find

307
00:09:07,366 --> 00:09:08,900
it in the corpses.

308
00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:10,400
And so he actually told the

309
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:11,600
prosecuting attorney there was

310
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,233
no way to prove that the man had

311
00:09:13,233 --> 00:09:14,400
chloroform.

312
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:15,833
Chloroform was invented in the

313
00:09:15,833 --> 00:09:20,600
mid-19th century, as a surgical

314
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,800
anesthetic.

315
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,000
And it was a great step up in a

316
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,166
lot of ways from ether, which

317
00:09:25,166 --> 00:09:27,400
was flammable, because at that

318
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,600
time they were using candles to

319
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,866
light operating theaters.

320
00:09:31,866 --> 00:09:33,233
>> That wouldn't be a good

321
00:09:33,233 --> 00:09:34,233
combination.

322
00:09:34,233 --> 00:09:35,300
>> Right.

323
00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:36,333
And they used to blow up.

324
00:09:36,333 --> 00:09:37,366
So along came chloroform, which

325
00:09:37,366 --> 00:09:39,866
was a wonderful thing until two

326
00:09:39,866 --> 00:09:41,066
things happened.

327
00:09:41,066 --> 00:09:42,766
One, criminals discovered it was

328
00:09:42,766 --> 00:09:44,933
really an effective poison.

329
00:09:44,933 --> 00:09:46,933
And they discovered that because

330
00:09:46,933 --> 00:09:48,900
doctors discovered that their

331
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:50,633
patients were mysteriously dying

332
00:09:50,633 --> 00:09:52,633
on the operating table and

333
00:09:52,633 --> 00:09:54,533
chloroform turned out to be

334
00:09:54,533 --> 00:09:57,600
unpredictably really deadly.

335
00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,933
>> In terms of the dose, you

336
00:09:58,933 --> 00:10:00,100
couldn't tell whether this was

337
00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:01,800
put-em-under or put-em-away.

338
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,033
>> Right, you actually could not

339
00:10:03,033 --> 00:10:05,066
set a safe dose for chloroform,

340
00:10:05,066 --> 00:10:07,266
which made it not a great

341
00:10:07,266 --> 00:10:10,066
anesthetic.

342
00:10:10,066 --> 00:10:11,133
The other thing that happened

343
00:10:11,133 --> 00:10:12,833
was that home invasion

344
00:10:12,833 --> 00:10:16,866
burglaries were one of the - or

345
00:10:16,866 --> 00:10:18,500
burglars who did home invasions,

346
00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:19,833
they loved chloroform.

347
00:10:19,833 --> 00:10:20,966
And if you go back and you look

348
00:10:20,966 --> 00:10:22,000
at the newspapers in the early

349
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,533
20th century, you'll actually

350
00:10:23,533 --> 00:10:25,333
find these things where, you

351
00:10:25,333 --> 00:10:26,333
hear a knock on the door, you go

352
00:10:26,333 --> 00:10:27,566
to the door, someone puts a

353
00:10:27,566 --> 00:10:28,866
chloroform-soaked rag over your

354
00:10:28,866 --> 00:10:29,933
face, you wake up everything's

355
00:10:29,933 --> 00:10:31,266
gone.

356
00:10:31,266 --> 00:10:32,700
And there was one of my favorite

357
00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:34,033
cases.

358
00:10:34,033 --> 00:10:35,500
Hair was really valuable then

359
00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:36,933
for wigs.

360
00:10:36,933 --> 00:10:38,433
There was a young woman, a knock

361
00:10:38,433 --> 00:10:39,733
on the door, she opens it, she

362
00:10:39,733 --> 00:10:41,700
wakes up, she's bald, right?

363
00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:42,866
Because that's all they were

364
00:10:42,866 --> 00:10:44,500
doing, they were going around

365
00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:45,766
and stealing hair.

366
00:10:45,766 --> 00:10:47,433
I mean, it was a fantastically

367
00:10:47,433 --> 00:10:48,933
interesting time.

368
00:10:48,933 --> 00:10:50,066
So I looked at chloroform in

369
00:10:50,066 --> 00:10:52,466
that sense, and I looked at a

370
00:10:52,466 --> 00:10:54,933
really interesting problem which

371
00:10:54,933 --> 00:10:57,766
was, you could kill someone with

372
00:10:57,766 --> 00:10:59,466
chloroform, even someone really

373
00:10:59,466 --> 00:11:01,433
rich and powerful.

374
00:11:01,433 --> 00:11:02,800
And the example I looked at was

375
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,066
William Rice, who endowed Rice

376
00:11:04,066 --> 00:11:05,866
University in Texas.

377
00:11:05,866 --> 00:11:07,066
>> Good case, so that's one of

378
00:11:07,066 --> 00:11:08,333
the earlier ones.

379
00:11:08,333 --> 00:11:09,533
It was 1900, I think?

380
00:11:09,533 --> 00:11:10,933
>> Right.

381
00:11:10,933 --> 00:11:13,533
And Rice was apparently killed

382
00:11:13,533 --> 00:11:15,000
with chloroform.

383
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,200
They took the killers to trial

384
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,966
and the doctors essentially got

385
00:11:18,966 --> 00:11:21,066
in a dog fight in the courtroom

386
00:11:21,066 --> 00:11:23,466
about how the chloroform had

387
00:11:23,466 --> 00:11:25,266
killed him, could you even find

388
00:11:25,266 --> 00:11:26,733
it in the body, and eventually

389
00:11:26,733 --> 00:11:28,500
they had to let everyone go.

390
00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:30,333
So it made a great case of

391
00:11:30,333 --> 00:11:32,000
showing how you could actually

392
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,066
even figure out the poison and

393
00:11:34,066 --> 00:11:35,533
still lose in the courtroom,

394
00:11:35,533 --> 00:11:36,933
which was one of the problems we

395
00:11:36,933 --> 00:11:38,866
see going into the 20th century.

396
00:11:38,866 --> 00:11:40,066
People actually didn't believe

397
00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:41,866
you could win a poison case.

398
00:11:41,866 --> 00:11:43,533
>> Because it was a fact of

399
00:11:43,533 --> 00:11:45,466
prosecution's science against

400
00:11:45,466 --> 00:11:46,633
defense's science?

401
00:11:46,633 --> 00:11:48,100
>> That's exactly right.

402
00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:49,333
The prosecutions had failed too

403
00:11:49,333 --> 00:11:51,000
many times, the science wasn't

404
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,466
coherent enough.

405
00:11:52,466 --> 00:11:54,233
You'd get these kind of furious

406
00:11:54,233 --> 00:11:55,466
arguments in the courtroom.

407
00:11:55,466 --> 00:11:56,700
People would throw up their

408
00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:57,733
hands.

409
00:11:57,733 --> 00:11:59,700
And there wasn't - we take for

410
00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:01,200
granted the kind of CSI of

411
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,966
today.

412
00:12:02,966 --> 00:12:04,333
>> It's definite.

413
00:12:04,333 --> 00:12:06,900
>> Yeah, you have the state

414
00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:08,333
laboratory scientists or the

415
00:12:08,333 --> 00:12:09,700
federal scientist comes up and

416
00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:13,033
tells us what the lab found.

417
00:12:13,033 --> 00:12:14,300
They didn't have that then.

418
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:15,600
I mean, when someone like an

419
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,600
Alexander Gettler came and

420
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:17,833
testified in the courtroom,

421
00:12:17,833 --> 00:12:18,833
people didn't know what to do

422
00:12:18,833 --> 00:12:20,666
with him.

423
00:12:20,666 --> 00:12:22,766
So you see in the 1920s this

424
00:12:22,766 --> 00:12:24,466
evolution where the expert

425
00:12:24,466 --> 00:12:26,066
witness, the scientific expert

426
00:12:26,066 --> 00:12:27,900
witness, starts to become

427
00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:29,700
someone people listen to.

428
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:30,933
And the interesting thing with

429
00:12:30,933 --> 00:12:32,633
Gettler was that by the end of

430
00:12:32,633 --> 00:12:34,633
his career in the '30s, defense

431
00:12:34,633 --> 00:12:35,966
attorneys were complaining that

432
00:12:35,966 --> 00:12:38,066
all he had to do was sit down in

433
00:12:38,066 --> 00:12:39,466
the chair and the jury said,

434
00:12:39,466 --> 00:12:41,600
"That person must be guilty."

435
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,000
Because he had become almost

436
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,066
too credible.

437
00:12:44,066 --> 00:12:45,966
>> So credible.

438
00:12:45,966 --> 00:12:47,100
And now you have a chunk of

439
00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:48,300
something here that you brought

440
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:49,333
in.

441
00:12:49,333 --> 00:12:50,366
It looks like, what are we

442
00:12:50,366 --> 00:12:51,666
looking at here?

443
00:12:51,666 --> 00:12:55,333
>> That's radium.

444
00:12:55,333 --> 00:12:57,166
And radium was mined and you'd

445
00:12:57,166 --> 00:12:59,933
find it in these kind of chunks.

446
00:12:59,933 --> 00:13:01,266
That's a chunk of ore that you'd

447
00:13:01,266 --> 00:13:03,700
extract radium from.

448
00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:05,166
>> Just sitting there like any

449
00:13:05,166 --> 00:13:06,933
other kind of household item.

450
00:13:06,933 --> 00:13:08,266
>> Right.

451
00:13:08,266 --> 00:13:09,300
Well, it wouldn't actually go

452
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:10,800
into your household in quite

453
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,400
that chunk, but that's a good

454
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,666
image.

455
00:13:14,666 --> 00:13:16,033
That's actually a chunk of

456
00:13:16,033 --> 00:13:20,033
uranium ore that you would find

457
00:13:20,033 --> 00:13:21,566
radium in the tailings.

458
00:13:21,566 --> 00:13:23,833
And Marie Curie discovered this.

459
00:13:23,833 --> 00:13:25,466
She was working with uranium in

460
00:13:25,466 --> 00:13:27,533
the late 19th century and there

461
00:13:27,533 --> 00:13:29,466
was way more radiation than

462
00:13:29,466 --> 00:13:30,833
uranium should have been giving

463
00:13:30,833 --> 00:13:32,400
off.

464
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,066
And eventually, she

465
00:13:34,066 --> 00:13:35,666
painstakingly figured out that

466
00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:37,466
it wasn't the uranium, it was a

467
00:13:37,466 --> 00:13:39,566
much more active element called

468
00:13:39,566 --> 00:13:43,433
radium that emitted, had much

469
00:13:43,433 --> 00:13:46,033
more intensity than uranium and

470
00:13:46,033 --> 00:13:47,700
immediately people started

471
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:50,066
looking at it and using it to

472
00:13:50,066 --> 00:13:52,033
treat cancer.

473
00:13:52,033 --> 00:13:53,866
>> What reason did they have to

474
00:13:53,866 --> 00:13:55,066
do that?

475
00:13:55,066 --> 00:13:57,200
What was the inspiration that

476
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,000
made them want to treat cancer?

477
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,633
>> There had been some other

478
00:14:00,633 --> 00:14:02,900
experimentation actually with

479
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:04,733
radioactive ores earlier, like

480
00:14:04,733 --> 00:14:06,533
uranium, in which they'd seen

481
00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:09,200
some shrinkage of tumors.

482
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,366
So now you have this very rare

483
00:14:11,366 --> 00:14:14,933
ore that has a lot more energy.

484
00:14:14,933 --> 00:14:17,033
People would actually, doctors

485
00:14:17,033 --> 00:14:18,700
would take a tiny piece of

486
00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:20,500
uranium and put in a glass tube

487
00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,500
and insert it into a tumor.

488
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:23,900
So you have the thing inside

489
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:25,166
you.

490
00:14:25,166 --> 00:14:26,366
But those tumors would shrink,

491
00:14:26,366 --> 00:14:28,466
because we do know that

492
00:14:28,466 --> 00:14:29,766
basically as the cells are

493
00:14:29,766 --> 00:14:31,000
dividing, they're getting

494
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,666
bombarded by this lethal dose

495
00:14:32,666 --> 00:14:34,100
and it kills them.

496
00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,266
So what happened, and what makes

497
00:14:35,266 --> 00:14:37,000
radium so interesting, and you

498
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,700
see here in this slide, "radium

499
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:42,800
is a wonderful medicine."

500
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,100
People started thinking of

501
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:45,433
radium as a tiny health-giving

502
00:14:45,433 --> 00:14:46,366
sun.

503
00:14:46,366 --> 00:14:47,333
That's the image I always think

504
00:14:47,333 --> 00:14:48,766
of it, this little sparkling sun

505
00:14:48,766 --> 00:14:50,266
in the ground.

506
00:14:50,266 --> 00:14:52,833
And they went right from radium

507
00:14:52,833 --> 00:14:56,833
to treat cancer into radium to

508
00:14:56,833 --> 00:14:59,366
improve your entire health.

509
00:14:59,366 --> 00:15:01,566
There were radium health books.

510
00:15:01,566 --> 00:15:02,933
Radium to make you more

511
00:15:02,933 --> 00:15:03,966
beautiful.

512
00:15:03,966 --> 00:15:06,366
There were radium face creams.

513
00:15:06,366 --> 00:15:07,566
I always imagine this, you put

514
00:15:07,566 --> 00:15:08,900
it on, your skin glows, your

515
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,666
face falls off.

516
00:15:10,666 --> 00:15:12,266
It was just horrible.

517
00:15:12,266 --> 00:15:14,000
Radium candy that they used to

518
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,333
give to kids to kind of perk

519
00:15:15,333 --> 00:15:17,000
them up.

520
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,000
You just can't believe, they put

521
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,866
radium into everything.

522
00:15:19,866 --> 00:15:20,966
And the other thing they did

523
00:15:20,966 --> 00:15:22,100
with radium, which is really

524
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:23,900
interesting, came out of

525
00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:25,433
World War I.

526
00:15:25,433 --> 00:15:27,766
And that is, one of the great

527
00:15:27,766 --> 00:15:31,266
inventions of World War I was

528
00:15:31,266 --> 00:15:34,700
the wristwatch because they

529
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:36,300
discovered that if you were a

530
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:37,466
soldier crawling around in a

531
00:15:37,466 --> 00:15:39,666
trench with your pocket watch,

532
00:15:39,666 --> 00:15:40,900
they would fall out, they would

533
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:41,966
get crushed.

534
00:15:41,966 --> 00:15:43,133
The military came up with a

535
00:15:43,133 --> 00:15:44,333
strap to hold the watch on the

536
00:15:44,333 --> 00:15:45,666
wrist.

537
00:15:45,666 --> 00:15:47,000
And then they needed instruments

538
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,766
that would be luminous at night

539
00:15:48,766 --> 00:15:50,066
but not bright enough to let the

540
00:15:50,066 --> 00:15:51,433
enemy see.

541
00:15:51,433 --> 00:15:53,433
So they were looking for

542
00:15:53,433 --> 00:15:54,866
something to produce this very

543
00:15:54,866 --> 00:15:56,466
faint glow and they discovered

544
00:15:56,466 --> 00:15:57,966
that if you mixed radium and

545
00:15:57,966 --> 00:15:59,933
zinc, the zinc atoms would get

546
00:15:59,933 --> 00:16:01,900
excited and they would glow.

547
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:03,233
And they came up with luminous

548
00:16:03,233 --> 00:16:04,466
paints.

549
00:16:04,466 --> 00:16:06,866
And after World War I, this was

550
00:16:06,866 --> 00:16:09,066
an enormous fad.

551
00:16:09,066 --> 00:16:10,600
Everyone wanted a wristwatch.

552
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,600
Everyone wanted a glowing watch.

553
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,066
Even a glowing clock.

554
00:16:15,066 --> 00:16:17,200
And so you got this boom in

555
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,000
factories in which the watch

556
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,600
faces got more and more

557
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,766
beautiful, almost artists

558
00:16:24,766 --> 00:16:25,933
painting these watch faces and

559
00:16:25,933 --> 00:16:27,800
they hired very young girls and

560
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,166
they would paint these

561
00:16:29,166 --> 00:16:30,366
elaborate, lacy numbers and

562
00:16:30,366 --> 00:16:31,800
designs.

563
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,566
And to make the brushes sharp

564
00:16:33,566 --> 00:16:35,666
enough to make these designs,

565
00:16:35,666 --> 00:16:37,800
they would lick the point.

566
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,400
And every time they dipped this

567
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,366
brush back into their mouth...

568
00:16:41,366 --> 00:16:42,600
>> They were ingesting radium.

569
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:43,700
>> They were swallowing

570
00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:44,700
the paint.

571
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:45,600
>> For hours a day.

572
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:46,500
>> Yes.

573
00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:47,400
They'd paint hundreds of these

574
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:48,400
watch faces a day, because they

575
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,266
were paid a penny a face.

576
00:16:51,266 --> 00:16:53,500
And they thought they were just

577
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,533
making themselves healthier.

578
00:16:55,533 --> 00:16:57,566
In fact, you can go back, people

579
00:16:57,566 --> 00:16:58,566
later called these

580
00:16:58,566 --> 00:16:59,800
the "radium girls."

581
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,433
And they would paint their teeth

582
00:17:01,433 --> 00:17:02,733
to make little Cheshire Cat

583
00:17:02,733 --> 00:17:03,766
smiles.

584
00:17:03,766 --> 00:17:04,700
>> In other words, they were

585
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:05,600
playing with it.

586
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:06,666
>> Yes, they played with the

587
00:17:06,666 --> 00:17:07,566
radium.

588
00:17:07,566 --> 00:17:08,566
And later when scientists

589
00:17:08,566 --> 00:17:09,766
finally started looking at them,

590
00:17:09,766 --> 00:17:11,033
they said if they took these

591
00:17:11,033 --> 00:17:12,166
girls and they turned out the

592
00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:13,166
light, they glowed like ghosts

593
00:17:13,166 --> 00:17:14,200
in the dark.

594
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,966
They were just so covered with

595
00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:17,066
radium.

596
00:17:17,066 --> 00:17:18,200
And the reason scientists

597
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,866
started looking at them is

598
00:17:19,866 --> 00:17:21,266
literally they started to

599
00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:23,266
crumble from within.

600
00:17:23,266 --> 00:17:24,766
Their jaws broke.

601
00:17:24,766 --> 00:17:26,333
>> It was the bone structure

602
00:17:26,333 --> 00:17:27,700
that the radium would

603
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:28,800
disintegrate.

604
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:29,900
>> Right.

605
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:30,966
Because what happened was, and

606
00:17:30,966 --> 00:17:32,066
this is what makes radium such

607
00:17:32,066 --> 00:17:34,133
an interesting poison, it's

608
00:17:34,133 --> 00:17:35,633
structurally a whole lot like

609
00:17:35,633 --> 00:17:37,000
calcium.

610
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,966
And when you swallow it, almost,

611
00:17:40,966 --> 00:17:42,233
your body takes it up like

612
00:17:42,233 --> 00:17:43,300
calcium.

613
00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:44,566
It goes to the bones.

614
00:17:44,566 --> 00:17:46,000
And once it's in the bones you

615
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,833
have now this radioactive

616
00:17:47,833 --> 00:17:50,400
material emitting and literally

617
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,500
it just destroyed the bones.

618
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:55,066
It destroyed bone marrow, so

619
00:17:55,066 --> 00:17:56,200
that you started seeing

620
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,600
leukemias and aplastic anemias.

621
00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,666
And it broke the bones to

622
00:17:59,666 --> 00:18:00,733
pieces.

623
00:18:00,733 --> 00:18:02,033
These girls had their jaws

624
00:18:02,033 --> 00:18:03,966
removed.

625
00:18:03,966 --> 00:18:05,900
Their spines started snapping.

626
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:07,433
Their legs broke underneath them

627
00:18:07,433 --> 00:18:09,033
as they walked.

628
00:18:09,033 --> 00:18:10,233
And at first, people kept

629
00:18:10,233 --> 00:18:11,700
saying, "Oh no, it's not radium,

630
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:13,633
it's not radium."

631
00:18:13,633 --> 00:18:16,000
Until finally the scientific

632
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,766
evidence was so heavy.

633
00:18:19,766 --> 00:18:21,233
Gettler and Norris actually did

634
00:18:21,233 --> 00:18:23,100
one experiment where they took

635
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:24,766
the body of a girl who had been

636
00:18:24,766 --> 00:18:26,633
dead for six years and she

637
00:18:26,633 --> 00:18:28,066
hadn't even been diagnosed with

638
00:18:28,066 --> 00:18:29,533
a radium sickness.

639
00:18:29,533 --> 00:18:31,266
And they took her bones and

640
00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:32,733
wrapped them up in photographic

641
00:18:32,733 --> 00:18:34,166
paper and left them there for a

642
00:18:34,166 --> 00:18:35,933
few days.

643
00:18:35,933 --> 00:18:37,533
And six years later these things

644
00:18:37,533 --> 00:18:39,233
were spitting radiation.

645
00:18:39,233 --> 00:18:41,633
Essentially she was radiating in

646
00:18:41,633 --> 00:18:42,966
the grave.

647
00:18:42,966 --> 00:18:44,200
It's sort of incredible.

648
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,200
>> There's another kind of

649
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,166
irony.

650
00:18:46,166 --> 00:18:49,466
The working class destruction of

651
00:18:49,466 --> 00:18:51,800
health through these long days,

652
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,266
exposure to hazardous materials,

653
00:18:53,266 --> 00:18:54,900
is one thing, but radium being

654
00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:57,133
so expensive, there would be

655
00:18:57,133 --> 00:18:58,400
kind of an irony, wouldn't

656
00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,266
there?

657
00:18:59,266 --> 00:19:00,333
In that you would have people

658
00:19:00,333 --> 00:19:01,133
that were very wealthy, the only

659
00:19:01,133 --> 00:19:02,166
ones who could afford, say, a

660
00:19:02,166 --> 00:19:03,566
radium drink or something or a

661
00:19:03,566 --> 00:19:05,633
radium tonic.

662
00:19:05,633 --> 00:19:07,233
>> That's right.

663
00:19:07,233 --> 00:19:08,933
>> Would be more affected than

664
00:19:08,933 --> 00:19:10,800
the less wealthy classes.

665
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:11,833
>> And one of the interesting

666
00:19:11,833 --> 00:19:13,100
things about the story of the

667
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:15,266
radium girls is, although they

668
00:19:15,266 --> 00:19:17,533
successfully eventually sued

669
00:19:17,533 --> 00:19:18,900
their corporation and got

670
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:20,666
settlements, the public health

671
00:19:20,666 --> 00:19:22,166
laws did not change until the

672
00:19:22,166 --> 00:19:24,966
wealthy started to get sick.

673
00:19:24,966 --> 00:19:27,366
And the case study for that was

674
00:19:27,366 --> 00:19:28,966
a Philadelphia industrialist

675
00:19:28,966 --> 00:19:30,766
named Evan Beyers, who had

676
00:19:30,766 --> 00:19:32,233
injured his shoulder and his

677
00:19:32,233 --> 00:19:33,733
doctor told him to drink one of

678
00:19:33,733 --> 00:19:35,166
these radium health drinks

679
00:19:35,166 --> 00:19:37,333
called Radithor, which was

680
00:19:37,333 --> 00:19:38,566
actually made down the street

681
00:19:38,566 --> 00:19:39,733
from one of the big radium watch

682
00:19:39,733 --> 00:19:40,966
factories.

683
00:19:40,966 --> 00:19:43,933
And he drank, like, several

684
00:19:43,933 --> 00:19:45,700
thousand bottles over a few

685
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:47,166
years, he said.

686
00:19:47,166 --> 00:19:49,033
And he began to look just like a

687
00:19:49,033 --> 00:19:50,866
radium girl.

688
00:19:50,866 --> 00:19:53,633
He dropped 80 pounds, his jaw

689
00:19:53,633 --> 00:19:57,500
broke, his arms fractured.

690
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,366
And when he died, all of his

691
00:20:00,366 --> 00:20:02,166
powerful friends then went to

692
00:20:02,166 --> 00:20:03,400
the federal government and they

693
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,466
said, why aren't you doing

694
00:20:04,466 --> 00:20:06,400
anything about us?

695
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,233
And so then you started to see

696
00:20:08,233 --> 00:20:09,766
the first serious legislation

697
00:20:09,766 --> 00:20:11,233
about radium.

698
00:20:11,233 --> 00:20:12,333
>> But they continued to use

699
00:20:12,333 --> 00:20:13,800
radium in watch dials, did they

700
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,100
not, for what, into the '60s?

701
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:17,966
>> They did, and it was again

702
00:20:17,966 --> 00:20:21,066
used, hand-painted by women,

703
00:20:21,066 --> 00:20:23,066
during World War II as well, so

704
00:20:23,066 --> 00:20:24,566
you did see this kind of tiered

705
00:20:24,566 --> 00:20:26,366
standard.

706
00:20:26,366 --> 00:20:28,066
After the book came out, I

707
00:20:28,066 --> 00:20:29,433
started hearing from people

708
00:20:29,433 --> 00:20:32,133
whose grandparents had worked at

709
00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:33,433
the watch factories up through

710
00:20:33,433 --> 00:20:34,666
the '60s.

711
00:20:34,666 --> 00:20:36,333
It's really interesting when you

712
00:20:36,333 --> 00:20:37,833
look at the way the government

713
00:20:37,833 --> 00:20:39,266
responds to some of these

714
00:20:39,266 --> 00:20:41,066
issues.

715
00:20:41,066 --> 00:20:42,733
People were reluctant to give up

716
00:20:42,733 --> 00:20:44,533
a useful tool.

717
00:20:44,533 --> 00:20:45,500
And there's a lot of

718
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:46,733
negotiations, without sounding

719
00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:48,000
too cynical, there's a lot of

720
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,333
negotiations between businesses

721
00:20:51,333 --> 00:20:54,633
and the government on some of

722
00:20:54,633 --> 00:20:56,000
these regulations.

723
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,033
I mean, mercury, shifting gears

724
00:20:58,033 --> 00:20:59,400
slightly, is a really good

725
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,433
example of this because there

726
00:21:02,433 --> 00:21:04,833
was a common antiseptic called

727
00:21:04,833 --> 00:21:06,033
Mercurochrome.

728
00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:07,800
>> Sure, yes.

729
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,033
>> Yes, it was sort of bright

730
00:21:09,033 --> 00:21:10,166
pink, orange, everybody used to

731
00:21:10,166 --> 00:21:11,600
paint themselves up with it.

732
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,700
>> If you got a cut or a

733
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:13,833
scratch, you would paint on the

734
00:21:13,833 --> 00:21:14,900
Mercurochrome.

735
00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:15,866
>> I was talking to one of my

736
00:21:15,866 --> 00:21:16,900
colleagues in my department who

737
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:17,900
said when he was a kid they

738
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:19,433
would use it to make Indian war

739
00:21:19,433 --> 00:21:20,666
paint.

740
00:21:20,666 --> 00:21:22,233
>> It smelled kind of neat.

741
00:21:22,233 --> 00:21:23,633
>> Yeah, and had this kind of

742
00:21:23,633 --> 00:21:27,866
bright neon-like color to it.

743
00:21:27,866 --> 00:21:29,700
It was, in fact, loaded with

744
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:31,633
mercury, right?

745
00:21:31,633 --> 00:21:32,633
The "mer" in that comes from

746
00:21:32,633 --> 00:21:33,933
"mercury."

747
00:21:33,933 --> 00:21:35,533
The FDA actually never banned

748
00:21:35,533 --> 00:21:37,200
Mercurochrome.

749
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,033
It started fading off the

750
00:21:40,033 --> 00:21:42,233
market as it got replaced by

751
00:21:42,233 --> 00:21:43,466
Neosporins and some of those

752
00:21:43,466 --> 00:21:45,466
kinds of things, and when the

753
00:21:45,466 --> 00:21:46,800
FDA actually looked at it they

754
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,300
kind of said, "Well, you know,

755
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:49,400
there's a lot of mercury in

756
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:50,566
this.

757
00:21:50,566 --> 00:21:52,433
We'll just declare it an

758
00:21:52,433 --> 00:21:54,333
unproven product."

759
00:21:54,333 --> 00:21:55,566
That means that the companies

760
00:21:55,566 --> 00:21:58,933
have to come back and prove that

761
00:21:58,933 --> 00:22:00,133
it's safe.

762
00:22:00,133 --> 00:22:01,600
And all the companies went, eh,

763
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:02,733
why would we do that when we can

764
00:22:02,733 --> 00:22:04,266
sell it overseas?

765
00:22:04,266 --> 00:22:05,466
>> Oh, sure.

766
00:22:05,466 --> 00:22:06,800
>> And so what happened is, all

767
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,733
these companies that make

768
00:22:07,733 --> 00:22:09,066
Mercurochrome in an antiseptic

769
00:22:09,066 --> 00:22:10,333
don't sell it in the United

770
00:22:10,333 --> 00:22:11,266
States anymore because they're

771
00:22:11,266 --> 00:22:12,300
not going through the safety

772
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:13,466
process.

773
00:22:13,466 --> 00:22:14,566
But if you go into the

774
00:22:14,566 --> 00:22:16,100
literature overseas, it's still

775
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:17,166
around.

776
00:22:17,166 --> 00:22:18,533
And it's been around since about

777
00:22:18,533 --> 00:22:19,766
the turn of the 20th century, so

778
00:22:19,766 --> 00:22:21,166
it's right in this period.

779
00:22:21,166 --> 00:22:23,566
So you do see this really

780
00:22:23,566 --> 00:22:24,900
interesting dance with

781
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:27,433
regulation on poisons.

782
00:22:27,433 --> 00:22:29,533
Interesting being a very polite

783
00:22:29,533 --> 00:22:31,666
word.

784
00:22:31,666 --> 00:22:32,833
>> And here we have another

785
00:22:32,833 --> 00:22:35,033
interesting way of, what would

786
00:22:35,033 --> 00:22:37,866
you say, applying poison.

787
00:22:37,866 --> 00:22:39,300
Doesn't look too healthy.

788
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,866
( both laugh )

789
00:22:41,866 --> 00:22:42,900
>> Well, we're not drinking

790
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:44,800
radium anymore, that's for sure.

791
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,100
>> -- out of the cooler there.

792
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,333
>> Right.

793
00:22:48,333 --> 00:22:49,566
And this is, I think this

794
00:22:49,566 --> 00:22:51,466
picture is, we had a lot of kind

795
00:22:51,466 --> 00:22:53,733
of nice pictures of radium,

796
00:22:53,733 --> 00:22:57,566
extracting ore in this picture.

797
00:22:57,566 --> 00:22:59,266
And we still use radiation to

798
00:22:59,266 --> 00:23:01,333
treat cancer, right?

799
00:23:01,333 --> 00:23:03,266
But if you go now to get any

800
00:23:03,266 --> 00:23:04,733
kind of radiation treatment,

801
00:23:04,733 --> 00:23:08,500
like a basic X-ray, the person

802
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,366
who is doing that treatment is

803
00:23:10,366 --> 00:23:12,666
not hovering around.

804
00:23:12,666 --> 00:23:15,400
They go somewhere else.

805
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,300
And it wasn't just radium.

806
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,933
They used to have X-ray machines

807
00:23:19,933 --> 00:23:21,300
in shoe stores, I don't know if

808
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:23,266
you remember this, right?

809
00:23:23,266 --> 00:23:24,466
>> I've heard of, yeah.

810
00:23:24,466 --> 00:23:25,800
>> Yeah, kids would go in and it

811
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,000
was like a game.

812
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,200
>> A do-your-own X-ray?

813
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,500
>> A do-your-own X-ray.

814
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:31,466
You'd go, they'd image their

815
00:23:31,466 --> 00:23:32,700
foot, cool, they could see the

816
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:33,666
bones.

817
00:23:33,666 --> 00:23:34,800
They'd image their hands.

818
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,166
We goofed around with radiation

819
00:23:36,166 --> 00:23:38,566
for a long time, and way after

820
00:23:38,566 --> 00:23:40,966
the Radium Girl case, which was

821
00:23:40,966 --> 00:23:45,400
settled in 1928-29, before we

822
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,900
started saying, you know, this

823
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:49,600
is really not such great stuff.

824
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:50,700
>> Just go out and play in the

825
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:51,966
DDT instead.

826
00:23:51,966 --> 00:23:53,533
( both laugh )

827
00:23:53,533 --> 00:23:55,233
A good wholesome afternoon.

828
00:23:55,233 --> 00:23:56,666
>> That's right.

829
00:23:56,666 --> 00:23:58,466
It's a different poison.

830
00:23:58,466 --> 00:23:59,833
>> And is this another look at

831
00:23:59,833 --> 00:24:01,366
the radium extraction here?

832
00:24:01,366 --> 00:24:02,600
>> Mm-hm.

833
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,600
This is radium extraction and if

834
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,033
you move it on one more, radium

835
00:24:07,033 --> 00:24:08,733
mining.

836
00:24:08,733 --> 00:24:09,833
This is uranium mining,

837
00:24:09,833 --> 00:24:11,833
actually, so you've got a lot of

838
00:24:11,833 --> 00:24:14,566
images of radioactive material.

839
00:24:14,566 --> 00:24:15,700
>> Geiger counters used to be

840
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:17,066
popular in the '50s, too, in the

841
00:24:17,066 --> 00:24:20,433
atomic age, of course.

842
00:24:20,433 --> 00:24:22,900
And here we have, of course, an

843
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:26,500
intent but standard scientific

844
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:27,866
scrutiny of something.

845
00:24:27,866 --> 00:24:29,433
>> Right, and this actually is a

846
00:24:29,433 --> 00:24:32,066
machine in which you can image,

847
00:24:32,066 --> 00:24:34,266
it's like...

848
00:24:34,266 --> 00:24:36,166
you're actually imaging light

849
00:24:36,166 --> 00:24:38,000
emissions as you heat a chemical

850
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,366
element.

851
00:24:39,366 --> 00:24:40,766
And then you see them fan out in

852
00:24:40,766 --> 00:24:42,800
the spectrum and that allows you

853
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,133
to identify it.

854
00:24:44,133 --> 00:24:46,833
For instance, I did a chapter on

855
00:24:46,833 --> 00:24:48,300
a poison, thalium, which you

856
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:50,366
don't see much now, but used to

857
00:24:50,366 --> 00:24:53,100
be used a lot, also in makeup

858
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:56,333
and in rat poison.

859
00:24:56,333 --> 00:24:59,200
And thalium makes this gorgeous,

860
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,633
when you heat it, spring green

861
00:25:01,633 --> 00:25:02,900
line.

862
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:05,133
It's like almost startling and

863
00:25:05,133 --> 00:25:06,500
beautiful when you see it in a

864
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:08,166
machine like that.

865
00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:09,900
This is radium, again.

866
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:13,500
You see the glowing lights there

867
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:15,066
related to the luminescence, and

868
00:25:15,066 --> 00:25:17,066
I believe that that's Marie

869
00:25:17,066 --> 00:25:20,000
Curie, actually demonstrating

870
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,400
her affection.

871
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,866
She loved radium, she called it

872
00:25:22,866 --> 00:25:24,166
"my beautiful radium."

873
00:25:24,166 --> 00:25:25,366
>> She carried a piece.

874
00:25:25,366 --> 00:25:26,566
>> She did, she used to carry

875
00:25:26,566 --> 00:25:27,733
little vials of it in her

876
00:25:27,733 --> 00:25:29,233
pockets.

877
00:25:29,233 --> 00:25:31,366
And she died of aplastic anemia.

878
00:25:31,366 --> 00:25:32,700
>> But there was no connection

879
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:33,933
made at the time between her

880
00:25:33,933 --> 00:25:35,333
death and radium?

881
00:25:35,333 --> 00:25:38,966
>> She would never admit how

882
00:25:38,966 --> 00:25:40,366
dangerous it was.

883
00:25:40,366 --> 00:25:42,166
She really struggled with

884
00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:43,733
admitting that anything that she

885
00:25:43,733 --> 00:25:46,966
thought was so important and had

886
00:25:46,966 --> 00:25:49,633
done so much good in science was

887
00:25:49,633 --> 00:25:51,233
actually dangerous.

888
00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:52,866
She probably went to her grave

889
00:25:52,866 --> 00:25:55,233
never really accepting it.

890
00:25:55,233 --> 00:25:56,633
>> Here's another sort of casual

891
00:25:56,633 --> 00:25:57,800
packaging approach.

892
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,200
( both laugh )

893
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,366
>> A nice little jug of mercury.

894
00:26:01,366 --> 00:26:02,500
Yeah, I was talking about

895
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:03,666
mercury earlier with

896
00:26:03,666 --> 00:26:04,900
Mercurochrome, but mercury was

897
00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:06,233
one of the famous poisons of the

898
00:26:06,233 --> 00:26:08,466
1920s.

899
00:26:08,466 --> 00:26:11,100
People used it to treat

900
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:12,233
infections.

901
00:26:12,233 --> 00:26:14,200
It was a really famous

902
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,533
antiseptic, and they used to

903
00:26:15,533 --> 00:26:17,700
have it in an incredibly strong

904
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:20,233
form, mercury bichloride, which

905
00:26:20,233 --> 00:26:22,133
is also called corrosive

906
00:26:22,133 --> 00:26:23,666
sublimate.

907
00:26:23,666 --> 00:26:25,600
We don't see this so much

908
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,400
anymore, but mercury

909
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,066
thermometers to test a fever

910
00:26:30,066 --> 00:26:31,600
used to be really popular.

911
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,100
Now they're digital.

912
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:34,066
>> The mercury, at least, was

913
00:26:34,066 --> 00:26:35,466
self-contained, right?

914
00:26:35,466 --> 00:26:36,666
>> If you look at this image,

915
00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:37,833
one of the things that makes

916
00:26:37,833 --> 00:26:39,666
pure mercury like this so

917
00:26:39,666 --> 00:26:43,366
interesting is that when it is

918
00:26:43,366 --> 00:26:45,800
liquid at atmospheric pressures,

919
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,633
it forms these little balls.

920
00:26:47,633 --> 00:26:50,033
It's the most strange liquid.

921
00:26:50,033 --> 00:26:51,100
>> Yeah, you get these little

922
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:52,466
balls that roll around, but then

923
00:26:52,466 --> 00:26:55,166
they will sort of connect with

924
00:26:55,166 --> 00:26:57,166
each other, they'll pool.

925
00:26:57,166 --> 00:26:58,400
>> That's right, and if you

926
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,466
touch them they break apart.

927
00:27:00,466 --> 00:27:01,600
Yeah, when I was a kid, we used

928
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,166
to do this for fun.

929
00:27:03,166 --> 00:27:04,300
You'd break your family

930
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:05,500
thermometer and then play with

931
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,133
the little mercury balls.

932
00:27:07,133 --> 00:27:08,700
And the good thing is that it

933
00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:10,433
didn't absorb through your skin,

934
00:27:10,433 --> 00:27:12,033
it skitters off your skin.

935
00:27:12,033 --> 00:27:14,100
Pure elemental mercury actually,

936
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:16,766
people, not recently, but in the

937
00:27:16,766 --> 00:27:19,766
1800s, used to drink cups of it.

938
00:27:19,766 --> 00:27:21,466
They thought that it was somehow

939
00:27:21,466 --> 00:27:22,633
health-giving.

940
00:27:22,633 --> 00:27:23,933
They'd swallow a cup, they'd get

941
00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:25,966
really inflamed tissues.

942
00:27:25,966 --> 00:27:27,966
But pretty much didn't acutely

943
00:27:27,966 --> 00:27:29,600
poison them, because it slid

944
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,600
right through in that

945
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,000
self-contained way.

946
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,433
Other things, when you mix

947
00:27:34,433 --> 00:27:36,866
mercury into a salt, like

948
00:27:36,866 --> 00:27:39,200
bichloride of mercury, then it's

949
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,100
really dangerous.

950
00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:42,933
And so here in this collection

951
00:27:42,933 --> 00:27:44,100
of bottles, what you're going to

952
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:46,566
see is mercury salts.

953
00:27:46,566 --> 00:27:48,400
And they were common medicines.

954
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,133
>> In the apothecary context,

955
00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:52,166
some of everything.

956
00:27:52,166 --> 00:27:54,400
Well, let's talk murder now.

957
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,466
we mentioned William Rice,

958
00:27:55,466 --> 00:27:57,100
founder of Rice University, year

959
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:58,233
is 1900.

960
00:27:58,233 --> 00:27:59,833
>> Right.

961
00:27:59,833 --> 00:28:01,200
>> And somehow he runs afoul of

962
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,366
chloroform.

963
00:28:02,366 --> 00:28:03,333
How would that not have been

964
00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:05,866
detected as a murder rather than

965
00:28:05,866 --> 00:28:07,200
as some kind of accident?

966
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,433
>> Well, proving a poison

967
00:28:08,433 --> 00:28:09,700
especially in that time was very

968
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:10,966
difficult.

969
00:28:10,966 --> 00:28:12,833
One of the things that makes

970
00:28:12,833 --> 00:28:16,633
poisoning so interesting is that

971
00:28:16,633 --> 00:28:17,933
you almost never see the person

972
00:28:17,933 --> 00:28:19,533
commit the crime.

973
00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:22,833
And two, you have to figure out

974
00:28:22,833 --> 00:28:24,900
when and if they purchased the

975
00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:25,966
poison.

976
00:28:25,966 --> 00:28:27,333
And if poisons are like common

977
00:28:27,333 --> 00:28:30,500
medicines, then you can't even

978
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:32,033
prove intent, really.

979
00:28:32,033 --> 00:28:34,233
"Well, I had this with me.

980
00:28:34,233 --> 00:28:35,733
I need this medicine for this

981
00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:37,366
purpose.

982
00:28:37,366 --> 00:28:39,200
It was entirely innocent that

983
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,966
this person, let's say,

984
00:28:40,966 --> 00:28:43,700
accidentally drank my medicine."

985
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:45,333
>> So what do we think

986
00:28:45,333 --> 00:28:47,533
happened to William Rice?

987
00:28:47,533 --> 00:28:48,766
>> The theory with William Rice

988
00:28:48,766 --> 00:28:51,966
and chloroform was that a very

989
00:28:51,966 --> 00:28:54,300
conniving lawyer and his valet

990
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,600
conspired to kill him.

991
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,233
They had forged a will in which

992
00:28:59,233 --> 00:29:01,166
they both inherited.

993
00:29:01,166 --> 00:29:02,233
And shortly after they forged

994
00:29:02,233 --> 00:29:06,100
this will, he mysteriously died.

995
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:08,100
And the valet actually confessed

996
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:09,900
to killing him with chloroform.

997
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:11,566
He had borrowed this chloroform.

998
00:29:11,566 --> 00:29:12,966
People actually would take

999
00:29:12,966 --> 00:29:14,733
chloroform sometimes as a

1000
00:29:14,733 --> 00:29:17,100
medicine, even doctors would

1001
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:19,066
prescribe it in small doses if

1002
00:29:19,066 --> 00:29:20,066
you were having trouble

1003
00:29:20,066 --> 00:29:21,166
sleeping.

1004
00:29:21,166 --> 00:29:22,333
>> Take a little whiff of

1005
00:29:22,333 --> 00:29:23,500
chloroform.

1006
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:24,566
>> You'd have a little bottle of

1007
00:29:24,566 --> 00:29:25,900
chloroform and a sponge.

1008
00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:27,000
And you'd put the sponge over

1009
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,533
your face and it would knock you

1010
00:29:28,533 --> 00:29:29,900
out and you'd get a really great

1011
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:32,300
night's sleep, allegedly, right?

1012
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:35,200
And this valet had borrowed his

1013
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,233
brother-in-law's chloroform and

1014
00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:40,233
confessed to doing this.

1015
00:29:40,233 --> 00:29:42,233
But again, and this is right in

1016
00:29:42,233 --> 00:29:45,133
the 1900s, people were not sure

1017
00:29:45,133 --> 00:29:47,200
how to detect it in a body.

1018
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,600
So that you could have someone

1019
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:49,633
come in and say, "Yeah, I killed

1020
00:29:49,633 --> 00:29:51,000
him.

1021
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,633
Yes, I used chloroform."

1022
00:29:53,633 --> 00:29:54,900
But they didn't know how to

1023
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:56,200
find any evidence of that, so

1024
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,933
they didn't know if you were

1025
00:29:57,933 --> 00:30:00,100
just the world's greatest

1026
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,166
show-off.

1027
00:30:01,166 --> 00:30:02,300
"I want all this attention, I'm

1028
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:03,766
going to confess to killing a

1029
00:30:03,766 --> 00:30:06,066
multi-millionaire."

1030
00:30:06,066 --> 00:30:07,300
And in the case of the serial

1031
00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:08,500
killer, Frederick Mors,

1032
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:09,566
I mentioned,

1033
00:30:09,566 --> 00:30:10,666
it was the same thing.

1034
00:30:10,666 --> 00:30:11,866
He walked into a police station,

1035
00:30:11,866 --> 00:30:12,966
he confessed to killing eight

1036
00:30:12,966 --> 00:30:14,266
people with chloroform.

1037
00:30:14,266 --> 00:30:16,666
They had all died in his care,

1038
00:30:16,666 --> 00:30:18,700
but because they didn't know how

1039
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,333
to extract the chloroform - they

1040
00:30:21,333 --> 00:30:22,700
did, they weren't aware that you

1041
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,866
could get the chloroform out of

1042
00:30:23,866 --> 00:30:25,266
the body.

1043
00:30:25,266 --> 00:30:26,833
Because these were people in an

1044
00:30:26,833 --> 00:30:28,133
old person's home, they could

1045
00:30:28,133 --> 00:30:29,866
have died anyway, they could

1046
00:30:29,866 --> 00:30:32,966
never make up their minds.

1047
00:30:32,966 --> 00:30:34,166
At least the police were sure he

1048
00:30:34,166 --> 00:30:36,233
did it, but the coroner less

1049
00:30:36,233 --> 00:30:37,900
sure and so he just eventually

1050
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,933
disappeared.

1051
00:30:39,933 --> 00:30:41,633
>> That name "Mors" was a

1052
00:30:41,633 --> 00:30:42,666
pseudonym.

1053
00:30:42,666 --> 00:30:44,200
>> It was, he had changed his

1054
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,833
name from - he was an immigrant

1055
00:30:46,833 --> 00:30:48,366
from Austria.

1056
00:30:48,366 --> 00:30:49,666
He had changed his name from the

1057
00:30:49,666 --> 00:30:51,800
name "Menerick" to "Mors"

1058
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,933
because "mors" meant death and

1059
00:30:53,933 --> 00:30:55,866
he had changed it right before

1060
00:30:55,866 --> 00:30:57,866
he started killing people.

1061
00:30:57,866 --> 00:30:59,000
So there was a lot of actually

1062
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,766
very good evidence that he had

1063
00:31:00,766 --> 00:31:02,100
killed these people.

1064
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:03,766
There were other people who had

1065
00:31:03,766 --> 00:31:07,766
seen him with chloroform and

1066
00:31:07,766 --> 00:31:09,866
cotton in his pockets.

1067
00:31:09,866 --> 00:31:11,333
They'd seen him in mysterious

1068
00:31:11,333 --> 00:31:12,533
circumstances.

1069
00:31:12,533 --> 00:31:13,633
He had a book about poisons in

1070
00:31:13,633 --> 00:31:15,733
his closet, but they still did

1071
00:31:15,733 --> 00:31:18,266
not actually put him away.

1072
00:31:18,266 --> 00:31:19,500
>> There was one of the most

1073
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:20,666
notorious cases of the '20s

1074
00:31:20,666 --> 00:31:23,800
involved an actress, by the name

1075
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,033
of Olive Thomas, and mercury.

1076
00:31:27,033 --> 00:31:29,400
How was that ever settled and

1077
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,466
how did it come about in the

1078
00:31:30,466 --> 00:31:31,533
first place?

1079
00:31:31,533 --> 00:31:32,700
Accident or murder?

1080
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:34,000
>> No one knows.

1081
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,933
There are still plenty of people

1082
00:31:35,933 --> 00:31:37,233
who think her husband, who was

1083
00:31:37,233 --> 00:31:38,933
the younger brother of screen

1084
00:31:38,933 --> 00:31:40,733
actress Mary Pickford, his name

1085
00:31:40,733 --> 00:31:42,166
was Jack Pickford.

1086
00:31:42,166 --> 00:31:43,466
>> And this is Olive here.

1087
00:31:43,466 --> 00:31:45,800
>> This is Olive.

1088
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,300
She rocketed to fame out of New

1089
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:50,000
York and starting in about

1090
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,700
1914-15 she won the "most

1091
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:53,966
beautiful girl in New York"

1092
00:31:53,966 --> 00:31:55,400
contest.

1093
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,333
She was a Ziegfeld dancer.

1094
00:31:57,333 --> 00:31:58,600
>> Not all of her pictures look

1095
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,133
quite this demure.

1096
00:32:00,133 --> 00:32:01,466
>> Innocent?

1097
00:32:01,466 --> 00:32:02,566
>> I guess, we mentioned

1098
00:32:02,566 --> 00:32:03,733
Ziegfeld.

1099
00:32:03,733 --> 00:32:05,000
There was also a man by the name

1100
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,000
of Vargas for whom she posed,

1101
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,266
and this is just part of that

1102
00:32:08,266 --> 00:32:09,666
particular picture.

1103
00:32:09,666 --> 00:32:11,066
>> Right, sort of the upper

1104
00:32:11,066 --> 00:32:12,933
part.

1105
00:32:12,933 --> 00:32:15,566
She was fairly fearless.

1106
00:32:15,566 --> 00:32:18,100
And shortly after she posed for

1107
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,466
this Vargas portrait, David

1108
00:32:20,466 --> 00:32:21,933
South-- picked her up.

1109
00:32:21,933 --> 00:32:23,400
She went to Hollywood.

1110
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,733
She was a rising star of kind of

1111
00:32:25,733 --> 00:32:30,600
adventurous, charming,

1112
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,133
incurably brave young heroines.

1113
00:32:33,133 --> 00:32:34,300
She was in "The Flapper,"

1114
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:35,800
"Madcap Madge."

1115
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,966
And she married Pickford.

1116
00:32:37,966 --> 00:32:40,200
They had a really wild marriage,

1117
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,633
lots of partying, lots of

1118
00:32:41,633 --> 00:32:44,900
drinking, lots of infidelity,

1119
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:46,666
especially on his part.

1120
00:32:46,666 --> 00:32:48,600
He developed syphilis.

1121
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,533
And his doctor had prescribed a

1122
00:32:50,533 --> 00:32:51,866
mercury compound for that,

1123
00:32:51,866 --> 00:32:53,600
bichloride of mercury, which is

1124
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,833
one of these really toxic

1125
00:32:54,833 --> 00:32:56,433
mercury salts we were talking

1126
00:32:56,433 --> 00:32:57,966
about earlier.

1127
00:32:57,966 --> 00:33:00,600
And at one point, he suggested

1128
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:01,933
to her that they kind of have a

1129
00:33:01,933 --> 00:33:04,966
make-up vacation and they went

1130
00:33:04,966 --> 00:33:06,766
off to Paris.

1131
00:33:06,766 --> 00:33:09,033
And one night...

1132
00:33:09,033 --> 00:33:10,233
The only story that we know

1133
00:33:10,233 --> 00:33:12,400
about this is his story, because

1134
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,800
she did not survive the

1135
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,900
vacation.

1136
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:17,866
One night he said they went back

1137
00:33:17,866 --> 00:33:20,033
to the room really drunk.

1138
00:33:20,033 --> 00:33:22,733
He got in bed and she went into

1139
00:33:22,733 --> 00:33:24,533
the bathroom to kind of get

1140
00:33:24,533 --> 00:33:27,000
ready for bed, and according to

1141
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,200
him, then accidentally drank his

1142
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,966
mercury bichloride.

1143
00:33:31,966 --> 00:33:33,300
And she lived about three more

1144
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:36,033
days before she died.

1145
00:33:36,033 --> 00:33:37,233
It was a huge scandal at the

1146
00:33:37,233 --> 00:33:38,133
time.

1147
00:33:38,133 --> 00:33:39,366
It was about 1920.

1148
00:33:39,366 --> 00:33:40,466
Many, many people thought he'd

1149
00:33:40,466 --> 00:33:41,433
killed her.

1150
00:33:41,433 --> 00:33:43,166
>> What would be his motive?

1151
00:33:43,166 --> 00:33:44,900
>> To get out of a marriage that

1152
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,166
was holding him back from other

1153
00:33:47,166 --> 00:33:49,233
relationships.

1154
00:33:49,233 --> 00:33:50,966
And other people thought she'd

1155
00:33:50,966 --> 00:33:52,866
committed suicide.

1156
00:33:52,866 --> 00:33:54,500
>> You have three possibilities,

1157
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:55,633
don't you?

1158
00:33:55,633 --> 00:33:56,833
>> You have three possibilities.

1159
00:33:56,833 --> 00:33:58,733
That she just had it, that there

1160
00:33:58,733 --> 00:33:59,933
was something that happened that

1161
00:33:59,933 --> 00:34:03,033
night that he did not say.

1162
00:34:03,033 --> 00:34:05,666
But again, imagine that he had

1163
00:34:05,666 --> 00:34:09,533
killed her.

1164
00:34:09,533 --> 00:34:10,800
He didn't go around killing

1165
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,700
anyone else, so it's sort of

1166
00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:13,900
hard to say, yes, he did it.

1167
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:15,200
But imagine that he had.

1168
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,700
He innocently goes to Paris, he

1169
00:34:16,700 --> 00:34:17,766
has this medicine that he's been

1170
00:34:17,766 --> 00:34:19,233
prescribed.

1171
00:34:19,233 --> 00:34:20,800
He's in a hotel room, this

1172
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,866
happened about 3:00 in the

1173
00:34:21,866 --> 00:34:23,433
morning.

1174
00:34:23,433 --> 00:34:26,700
She is dying when they leave the

1175
00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:28,133
hotel room and the only person

1176
00:34:28,133 --> 00:34:29,966
who tells this story is him.

1177
00:34:29,966 --> 00:34:31,133
There would be no way to prove

1178
00:34:31,133 --> 00:34:32,833
that, and there wasn't.

1179
00:34:32,833 --> 00:34:34,300
>> There was another famous case

1180
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:35,633
of someone who literally got

1181
00:34:35,633 --> 00:34:37,366
away with murder the first time,

1182
00:34:37,366 --> 00:34:39,566
Ruth Snyder.

1183
00:34:39,566 --> 00:34:42,000
>> Yes, and that's a mercury and

1184
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,000
a whole lot of different poisons

1185
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,266
story.

1186
00:34:45,266 --> 00:34:47,966
Ruth Snyder was a kind of, also

1187
00:34:47,966 --> 00:34:50,433
a lively young woman.

1188
00:34:50,433 --> 00:34:52,500
She was blonde, very, you know.

1189
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:54,833
She had an abusive older husband

1190
00:34:54,833 --> 00:34:58,300
and she took on a lover named

1191
00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:00,466
Judd Gray.

1192
00:35:00,466 --> 00:35:01,733
She was not a lovely person,

1193
00:35:01,733 --> 00:35:03,100
either.

1194
00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:04,200
She and Judd used to meet in New

1195
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,766
York City, and she had an

1196
00:35:05,766 --> 00:35:07,366
eight-year-old daughter and she

1197
00:35:07,366 --> 00:35:10,366
would meet at the Waldorf

1198
00:35:10,366 --> 00:35:12,300
Astoria in New York and have her

1199
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:14,000
daughter ride the escalators up

1200
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,133
and down till the tryst was

1201
00:35:15,133 --> 00:35:17,333
over.

1202
00:35:17,333 --> 00:35:19,600
And eventually, she and her

1203
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,666
lover decided that they would

1204
00:35:21,666 --> 00:35:23,800
get rid of her husband and they

1205
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,733
took out two insurance policies

1206
00:35:27,733 --> 00:35:29,500
with double indemnity clauses.

1207
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:31,033
If he died an accidental death,

1208
00:35:31,033 --> 00:35:33,400
they would get about $90,000

1209
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:34,800
which was a lot of money in the

1210
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,366
1920s.

1211
00:35:36,366 --> 00:35:38,766
Then she put mercury in his

1212
00:35:38,766 --> 00:35:40,433
alcohol.

1213
00:35:40,433 --> 00:35:42,500
It was 1920s, everyone was

1214
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:44,433
drinking bootleg alcohol.

1215
00:35:44,433 --> 00:35:46,366
She spiked his alcohol and

1216
00:35:46,366 --> 00:35:47,400
apparently she put way too much

1217
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,000
in it and it tasted really nasty

1218
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,633
and he didn't drink it.

1219
00:35:50,633 --> 00:35:52,366
So eventually they came up with

1220
00:35:52,366 --> 00:35:53,500
a plot.

1221
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:54,600
They used chloroform to knock

1222
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,966
him out.

1223
00:35:55,966 --> 00:35:58,166
They gave him poisoned alcohol.

1224
00:35:58,166 --> 00:36:00,066
Then when he didn't die fast

1225
00:36:00,066 --> 00:36:02,333
enough, they hit him over the

1226
00:36:02,333 --> 00:36:03,600
head with a sash weight and

1227
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,366
strangled him with picture wire.

1228
00:36:05,366 --> 00:36:07,266
And then after they had done

1229
00:36:07,266 --> 00:36:08,933
this enormous mess they tried to

1230
00:36:08,933 --> 00:36:11,066
stage a fake burglary and she

1231
00:36:11,066 --> 00:36:13,100
claimed that a giant

1232
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:14,500
Italian-American had come into

1233
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:17,233
the house, tied her up, and

1234
00:36:17,233 --> 00:36:20,066
killed him.

1235
00:36:20,066 --> 00:36:21,766
Someone later, Damon Runyon, who

1236
00:36:21,766 --> 00:36:23,033
was a famous columnist in the

1237
00:36:23,033 --> 00:36:24,033
Times, called it "the dumbbell

1238
00:36:24,033 --> 00:36:26,800
murders" because Judd Gray had

1239
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,600
tied her up but he had tied her

1240
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,733
feet and not her hands, so no

1241
00:36:30,733 --> 00:36:31,900
one could figure out why she

1242
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:34,400
just didn't untie her feet.

1243
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,600
And there were other things that

1244
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,233
eventually went wrong with this.

1245
00:36:38,233 --> 00:36:39,566
Alexander Gettler testified in

1246
00:36:39,566 --> 00:36:40,766
that trial and he actually

1247
00:36:40,766 --> 00:36:43,033
testified that if they had just

1248
00:36:43,033 --> 00:36:45,100
waited, he probably would have

1249
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:46,600
looked like he died of natural

1250
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,666
causes.

1251
00:36:47,666 --> 00:36:48,766
And both of these guys went to

1252
00:36:48,766 --> 00:36:50,166
the electric chair.

1253
00:36:50,166 --> 00:36:51,133
>> And that was the prototype

1254
00:36:51,133 --> 00:36:52,133
for "The Postman Always Rings

1255
00:36:52,133 --> 00:36:53,066
Twice"?

1256
00:36:53,066 --> 00:36:54,066
>> "The Postman Always Rings

1257
00:36:54,066 --> 00:36:56,500
Twice," because James Cain said

1258
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,166
that he was fascinated by the

1259
00:36:58,166 --> 00:36:59,866
themes of love and betrayal.

1260
00:36:59,866 --> 00:37:01,600
Because the part of the story I

1261
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,566
didn't just tell you was that

1262
00:37:04,566 --> 00:37:06,333
once they were both arrested,

1263
00:37:06,333 --> 00:37:08,166
they spent the entire rest of

1264
00:37:08,166 --> 00:37:10,833
the trial and after the trial

1265
00:37:10,833 --> 00:37:12,133
ratting each other out and

1266
00:37:12,133 --> 00:37:13,166
blaming the whole thing on each

1267
00:37:13,166 --> 00:37:15,533
other.

1268
00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:18,933
And Ruth actually did such a

1269
00:37:18,933 --> 00:37:22,200
good job of blaming it on Judd

1270
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,100
that while she was in prison she

1271
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:25,533
got almost 200 marriage

1272
00:37:25,533 --> 00:37:28,266
proposals.

1273
00:37:28,266 --> 00:37:30,333
I know this happens nowadays,

1274
00:37:30,333 --> 00:37:31,466
but it's really hard to imagine

1275
00:37:31,466 --> 00:37:33,766
why anyone would want to propose

1276
00:37:33,766 --> 00:37:35,400
to someone who had poisoned her

1277
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,633
husband's whiskey and hit him

1278
00:37:36,633 --> 00:37:37,866
over the head with a sash

1279
00:37:37,866 --> 00:37:40,033
weight.

1280
00:37:40,033 --> 00:37:44,333
And her execution, she was

1281
00:37:44,333 --> 00:37:46,300
electrocuted at Sing Sing, is a

1282
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:49,100
really notorious journalism case

1283
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,066
because a newspaper reporter

1284
00:37:51,066 --> 00:37:52,833
smuggled a camera in.

1285
00:37:52,833 --> 00:37:54,633
And he took a picture of her

1286
00:37:54,633 --> 00:37:56,500
literally jittering with

1287
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,200
electricity in the chair.

1288
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,833
And the front page, it was the

1289
00:38:00,833 --> 00:38:02,033
New York Daily News, and the

1290
00:38:02,033 --> 00:38:04,300
paper was just that picture.

1291
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,233
And she was so notorious at that

1292
00:38:06,233 --> 00:38:08,133
time that the front page of the

1293
00:38:08,133 --> 00:38:09,666
paper was the picture of her in

1294
00:38:09,666 --> 00:38:11,333
the electric chair and the word

1295
00:38:11,333 --> 00:38:12,433
"Dead."

1296
00:38:12,433 --> 00:38:14,333
And that was it.

1297
00:38:14,333 --> 00:38:15,466
And then they smuggled their

1298
00:38:15,466 --> 00:38:17,233
photographer out of the country

1299
00:38:17,233 --> 00:38:18,900
so he wouldn't be arrested.

1300
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:19,866
>> Interesting, having to do

1301
00:38:19,866 --> 00:38:21,033
with, as long as we're talking

1302
00:38:21,033 --> 00:38:22,300
about alcohol, which was just

1303
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:23,600
one of the things that they

1304
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,300
tried in the Snyder case.

1305
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,000
The US government also got into

1306
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,533
the act in terms of using

1307
00:38:29,533 --> 00:38:31,266
alcohol as a poison.

1308
00:38:31,266 --> 00:38:32,833
>> Yeah, this to me was actually

1309
00:38:32,833 --> 00:38:34,400
the most shocking story in the

1310
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:35,666
book.

1311
00:38:35,666 --> 00:38:37,400
There are many homicidal killers

1312
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,033
in human history.

1313
00:38:40,033 --> 00:38:41,800
Mass poisonings by governments,

1314
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,500
especially American government,

1315
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,333
not so common.

1316
00:38:46,333 --> 00:38:47,833
So Prohibition turned out to be

1317
00:38:47,833 --> 00:38:51,766
a very difficult law to enforce,

1318
00:38:51,766 --> 00:38:54,000
and a huge failure.

1319
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,566
And if you look at what

1320
00:38:55,566 --> 00:38:56,966
happened, if you just took New

1321
00:38:56,966 --> 00:38:58,800
York as a model, instead of

1322
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,033
drinking less, people drank

1323
00:39:00,033 --> 00:39:02,233
phenomenally more.

1324
00:39:02,233 --> 00:39:04,566
In the 1920s, and in 1920 when

1325
00:39:04,566 --> 00:39:05,833
Prohibition started, there were

1326
00:39:05,833 --> 00:39:07,333
no speakeasies, and at the end

1327
00:39:07,333 --> 00:39:08,766
of the decade there were 30,000

1328
00:39:08,766 --> 00:39:11,366
speakeasies in New York City.

1329
00:39:11,366 --> 00:39:12,633
>> 30,000 in New York City.

1330
00:39:12,633 --> 00:39:14,066
>> Yes.

1331
00:39:14,066 --> 00:39:15,433
And so the government got so

1332
00:39:15,433 --> 00:39:17,233
frustrated by this, they

1333
00:39:17,233 --> 00:39:18,600
realized that a lot of the

1334
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,033
whiskey that was going to the

1335
00:39:20,033 --> 00:39:21,533
speakeasies was actually

1336
00:39:21,533 --> 00:39:23,566
industrial alcohol that was

1337
00:39:23,566 --> 00:39:25,066
being stolen by bootleggers.

1338
00:39:25,066 --> 00:39:26,900
About 60 million gallons a year

1339
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:27,900
of industrial alcohol was being

1340
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:29,433
stolen.

1341
00:39:29,433 --> 00:39:30,833
And what the bootleggers would

1342
00:39:30,833 --> 00:39:33,266
do is, distill out all the

1343
00:39:33,266 --> 00:39:35,200
additives that make this not

1344
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,500
drinkable alcohol, it makes it

1345
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:38,800
taste bad, and then serve it.

1346
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,533
I mean, this was nasty alcohol

1347
00:39:40,533 --> 00:39:41,433
anyway.

1348
00:39:41,433 --> 00:39:42,533
>> Serving it straight?

1349
00:39:42,533 --> 00:39:43,733
>> Yeah, they would serve it

1350
00:39:43,733 --> 00:39:44,733
straight.

1351
00:39:44,733 --> 00:39:46,133
Or, some of our favorite

1352
00:39:46,133 --> 00:39:48,133
cocktails were invented in the

1353
00:39:48,133 --> 00:39:49,933
1920s to hide the taste.

1354
00:39:49,933 --> 00:39:51,466
The screwdriver was invented

1355
00:39:51,466 --> 00:39:53,733
then, my favorite, the sidecar,

1356
00:39:53,733 --> 00:39:55,800
the bee's knees, I believe the

1357
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,066
Bloody Mary.

1358
00:39:58,066 --> 00:39:59,733
All of these things that hid the

1359
00:39:59,733 --> 00:40:02,333
taste of the bad alcohol.

1360
00:40:02,333 --> 00:40:04,466
So the government said, fine.

1361
00:40:04,466 --> 00:40:06,166
If we can't get people to just

1362
00:40:06,166 --> 00:40:08,700
obey the law, we'll make this

1363
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:10,300
whiskey so dangerous they won't

1364
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:11,600
want to drink it.

1365
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,266
And they actually put an

1366
00:40:14,266 --> 00:40:15,666
unbelievable number of poisons

1367
00:40:15,666 --> 00:40:16,866
in industrial alcohol that

1368
00:40:16,866 --> 00:40:18,033
couldn't be distilled out.

1369
00:40:18,033 --> 00:40:19,766
They put methyl alcohol, which

1370
00:40:19,766 --> 00:40:21,766
is really lethal.

1371
00:40:21,766 --> 00:40:23,933
It metabolizes in your body into

1372
00:40:23,933 --> 00:40:25,833
formaldehyde, and formic acid.

1373
00:40:25,833 --> 00:40:26,966
They put cyanide, they put

1374
00:40:26,966 --> 00:40:28,133
mercury.

1375
00:40:28,133 --> 00:40:29,233
They put arsenic, they put

1376
00:40:29,233 --> 00:40:30,766
benzene.

1377
00:40:30,766 --> 00:40:32,200
And literally once they started

1378
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:33,533
these new formulas, people

1379
00:40:33,533 --> 00:40:34,566
started dropping dead in the

1380
00:40:34,566 --> 00:40:36,233
street.

1381
00:40:36,233 --> 00:40:38,500
More than 10,000 people were

1382
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:40,400
killed by this program.

1383
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,866
>> And the government, it never

1384
00:40:42,866 --> 00:40:44,300
seemed to occur to anybody who

1385
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:46,200
came up with this idea that

1386
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:47,300
right away people would start

1387
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:48,933
dying but it wouldn't just be a

1388
00:40:48,933 --> 00:40:50,166
deterrent, but it would actually

1389
00:40:50,166 --> 00:40:51,466
kill people?

1390
00:40:51,466 --> 00:40:52,900
>> You know, when you go back

1391
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:54,200
and you look at the newspapers

1392
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,633
of the time, you see, they used

1393
00:40:56,633 --> 00:40:58,400
to have what they called "wet

1394
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,666
and dry" legislators.

1395
00:41:00,666 --> 00:41:01,866
And the "wets" wanted to get rid

1396
00:41:01,866 --> 00:41:02,966
of Prohibition, and the "drys"

1397
00:41:02,966 --> 00:41:04,133
wanted to keep it.

1398
00:41:04,133 --> 00:41:05,200
So you have the wet legislators

1399
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,466
saying, we've turned into the

1400
00:41:06,466 --> 00:41:08,533
Lucrezia Borgia government,

1401
00:41:08,533 --> 00:41:10,333
where we're murdering people.

1402
00:41:10,333 --> 00:41:11,500
And you have the dry legislators

1403
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:12,566
saying, well, they just

1404
00:41:12,566 --> 00:41:14,000
shouldn't drink it, then.

1405
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,833
They're morally corrupt anyway.

1406
00:41:15,833 --> 00:41:18,333
So Prohibition was a moral

1407
00:41:18,333 --> 00:41:19,766
crusade.

1408
00:41:19,766 --> 00:41:21,800
With all the religious fervor of

1409
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,133
a moral crusade.

1410
00:41:23,133 --> 00:41:24,766
So they considered these guys

1411
00:41:24,766 --> 00:41:25,966
kind of collateral damage to the

1412
00:41:25,966 --> 00:41:29,333
wind.

1413
00:41:29,333 --> 00:41:30,333
>> They were kind of weeding out

1414
00:41:30,333 --> 00:41:31,433
the ones who weren't really good

1415
00:41:31,433 --> 00:41:32,533
citizens anyway.

1416
00:41:32,533 --> 00:41:33,400
>> That's right.

1417
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,633
These were law breakers.

1418
00:41:34,633 --> 00:41:35,833
They were breaking the law, they

1419
00:41:35,833 --> 00:41:37,266
didn't have enough self-control

1420
00:41:37,266 --> 00:41:38,400
not to drink.

1421
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,766
They weren't good people.

1422
00:41:39,766 --> 00:41:41,200
And you heard all of those

1423
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:42,533
answers.

1424
00:41:42,533 --> 00:41:43,733
And in the dry newspapers of the

1425
00:41:43,733 --> 00:41:45,600
time, there was actually one

1426
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,000
editorial that said, "Is it the

1427
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,033
government's responsibility to

1428
00:41:49,033 --> 00:41:51,700
protect the lives of souses?"

1429
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:55,200
So it was an enormous divide.

1430
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,633
Both Norris and Gettler were

1431
00:41:56,633 --> 00:41:59,000
furious about this.

1432
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,666
They bitterly crusaded for it.

1433
00:42:00,666 --> 00:42:01,900
And Norris actually wrote a

1434
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:03,300
national magazine article that

1435
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:04,400
he titled "Our Essay in

1436
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,433
Extermination," in which he

1437
00:42:06,433 --> 00:42:07,933
basically said what everyone

1438
00:42:07,933 --> 00:42:10,300
else was saying, "You're killing

1439
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:13,033
a lot of people, please stop."

1440
00:42:13,033 --> 00:42:14,266
To no effect.

1441
00:42:14,266 --> 00:42:16,266
Eventually what happened was, it

1442
00:42:16,266 --> 00:42:17,300
didn't stop people from

1443
00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:19,333
drinking, which is kind of one

1444
00:42:19,333 --> 00:42:20,666
of the phenomenally interesting

1445
00:42:20,666 --> 00:42:21,800
things about the culture of the

1446
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,200
1920s.

1447
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,533
People just didn't want the

1448
00:42:24,533 --> 00:42:25,566
government to tell them how to

1449
00:42:25,566 --> 00:42:26,666
behave.

1450
00:42:26,666 --> 00:42:27,800
>> There was a real culture of

1451
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:28,900
getting away with things.

1452
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:30,133
>> Yes.

1453
00:42:30,133 --> 00:42:31,700
>> It was fun and a way of

1454
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:33,300
expressing your independence.

1455
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:34,466
>> It was probably, to me, one

1456
00:42:34,466 --> 00:42:35,966
of the more anarchistic decades

1457
00:42:35,966 --> 00:42:38,133
of United States history.

1458
00:42:38,133 --> 00:42:39,166
>> The more control, the more

1459
00:42:39,166 --> 00:42:40,233
anarchy in response.

1460
00:42:40,233 --> 00:42:41,466
>> Yes, that's exactly right.

1461
00:42:41,466 --> 00:42:42,700
So people continued drinking,

1462
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:44,033
and they continued dying.

1463
00:42:44,033 --> 00:42:45,800
>> So was there such a thing,

1464
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Deborah, as the "golden age of

1465
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,300
poison"?

1466
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,466
And if so, what would have

1467
00:42:49,466 --> 00:42:51,266
brought it to a close?

1468
00:42:51,266 --> 00:42:53,866
>> Well, one was the rise of the

1469
00:42:53,866 --> 00:42:54,866
Norris and Gettlers of the

1470
00:42:54,866 --> 00:42:56,033
world.

1471
00:42:56,033 --> 00:42:57,400
They trained the next

1472
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,533
generation, they used to call

1473
00:42:58,533 --> 00:42:59,533
them the "Gettler Boys," the

1474
00:42:59,533 --> 00:43:00,700
next generation of forensic

1475
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:02,200
toxicologists.

1476
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,200
So you get really good science.

1477
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:05,433
It's no longer as easy to get

1478
00:43:05,433 --> 00:43:06,700
away with it.

1479
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:08,033
And if it's not as easy to get

1480
00:43:08,033 --> 00:43:09,133
away with it, it's not as much

1481
00:43:09,133 --> 00:43:11,400
fun, right?

1482
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,200
And you get better public

1483
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,566
health.

1484
00:43:14,566 --> 00:43:17,600
The world really changed in this

1485
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,233
period in interesting ways that

1486
00:43:19,233 --> 00:43:21,133
protect us now.

1487
00:43:21,133 --> 00:43:22,733
>> So there was some psychology

1488
00:43:22,733 --> 00:43:24,000
that came out.

1489
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,933
Is there anything that, in terms

1490
00:43:25,933 --> 00:43:27,666
of the psychology, that you

1491
00:43:27,666 --> 00:43:29,166
think is a common thread among

1492
00:43:29,166 --> 00:43:32,133
these users of poison?

1493
00:43:32,133 --> 00:43:34,200
>> The homicidal poisoners?

1494
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,333
They believe they can get away

1495
00:43:35,333 --> 00:43:36,466
with it.

1496
00:43:36,466 --> 00:43:38,166
I mean, poisoners are the most

1497
00:43:38,166 --> 00:43:39,900
interesting killers to me,

1498
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:42,133
because you never have an

1499
00:43:42,133 --> 00:43:44,400
impulse killing.

1500
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,700
All poisonings are premeditated.

1501
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:48,466
>> Sometimes they take time to

1502
00:43:48,466 --> 00:43:50,200
unfold.

1503
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:51,433
>> And poisoners are willing to

1504
00:43:51,433 --> 00:43:52,600
wait.

1505
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:53,966
Because what they want to do is

1506
00:43:53,966 --> 00:43:57,200
get away with it, and they do.

1507
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,433
A lot of poisoners, the biggest

1508
00:43:58,433 --> 00:43:59,700
mistake they make is that they

1509
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:00,800
then kill again and get caught

1510
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:01,966
the second time.

1511
00:44:01,966 --> 00:44:02,966
>> And we did have a case of

1512
00:44:02,966 --> 00:44:04,466
that.

1513
00:44:04,466 --> 00:44:06,333
>> So, and one of the stories in

1514
00:44:06,333 --> 00:44:07,633
my book, I have an arsenic

1515
00:44:07,633 --> 00:44:10,666
murderess, Fanny Creighton, who

1516
00:44:10,666 --> 00:44:12,900
in the early 1920s - actually, I

1517
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:14,133
really like this story for two

1518
00:44:14,133 --> 00:44:15,066
reasons.

1519
00:44:15,066 --> 00:44:16,833
In the early 1920s, she kills

1520
00:44:16,833 --> 00:44:18,266
her 17-year-old brother with

1521
00:44:18,266 --> 00:44:20,000
arsenic and gets away with it

1522
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,633
and gets $1,000.

1523
00:44:21,633 --> 00:44:22,900
She'd insured his life before

1524
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:24,600
she killed him.

1525
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,166
Part of the problem was, again,

1526
00:44:27,166 --> 00:44:29,400
you know, there's too much

1527
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,966
arsenic around.

1528
00:44:30,966 --> 00:44:32,333
And science at that point wasn't

1529
00:44:32,333 --> 00:44:33,600
good enough to identify the

1530
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,066
source of the poison, so they

1531
00:44:35,066 --> 00:44:36,233
could never figure out where the

1532
00:44:36,233 --> 00:44:38,566
poison came from.

1533
00:44:38,566 --> 00:44:41,033
>> In 1935, she's involved in

1534
00:44:41,033 --> 00:44:42,600
quite a complicated scheme that

1535
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,600
involves the murder, that she

1536
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:45,700
and her husband are still

1537
00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:48,666
together, sharing a house.

1538
00:44:48,666 --> 00:44:50,500
She decides to get rid of the

1539
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:54,766
other woman in the house, and

1540
00:44:54,766 --> 00:44:56,433
there's a very complicated

1541
00:44:56,433 --> 00:44:59,433
scheme in which she murders this

1542
00:44:59,433 --> 00:45:01,033
other woman.

1543
00:45:01,033 --> 00:45:02,200
She wants her daughter to marry

1544
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,000
the other husband.

1545
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,600
And in this case, she uses a rat

1546
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,900
poison and the science is so

1547
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:09,500
good that they're not only able

1548
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:11,466
to figure out that it's a rat

1549
00:45:11,466 --> 00:45:12,900
poison that is the arsenic, they

1550
00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:14,733
can identify the brand.

1551
00:45:14,733 --> 00:45:15,800
And once they identify the

1552
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:16,966
brand, they're able to find

1553
00:45:16,966 --> 00:45:18,466
where she buys it.

1554
00:45:18,466 --> 00:45:19,666
And this time, she goes to the

1555
00:45:19,666 --> 00:45:21,233
electric chair.

1556
00:45:21,233 --> 00:45:23,700
And while she's in prison, she

1557
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:25,100
says, "Yeah, okay, I admit it.

1558
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:27,000
I killed my brother."

1559
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,033
So you see a much better

1560
00:45:29,033 --> 00:45:30,900
science.

1561
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:32,833
And you see an acceptance of the

1562
00:45:32,833 --> 00:45:36,233
scientific expert.

1563
00:45:36,233 --> 00:45:37,300
And you see the whole thing

1564
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:39,800
closing around her.

1565
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,033
So that now these poisoners, I

1566
00:45:42,033 --> 00:45:43,233
mean, look at this.

1567
00:45:43,233 --> 00:45:44,433
She got away with it once,

1568
00:45:44,433 --> 00:45:45,633
right?

1569
00:45:45,633 --> 00:45:47,566
And the second time she doesn't.

1570
00:45:47,566 --> 00:45:48,833
And so you see this enormous

1571
00:45:48,833 --> 00:45:50,433
change in the ability of science

1572
00:45:50,433 --> 00:45:51,866
to catch a poisoner.

1573
00:45:51,866 --> 00:45:53,166
>> She sort of brackets that

1574
00:45:53,166 --> 00:45:55,033
whole age, doesn't she?

1575
00:45:55,033 --> 00:45:56,800
In a kind of Hitchcockian way.

1576
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:57,966
You might get away with it once,

1577
00:45:57,966 --> 00:45:59,666
but try it again and you're

1578
00:45:59,666 --> 00:46:01,066
overplaying your hand.

1579
00:46:01,066 --> 00:46:03,066
>> She also eventually went to

1580
00:46:03,066 --> 00:46:04,800
the electric chair.

1581
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,400
Her husband refused to take the

1582
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,500
body.

1583
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:09,900
She's buried at Sing Sing.

1584
00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:12,166
>> Well, on that not entirely

1585
00:46:12,166 --> 00:46:13,166
cheerful note for

1586
00:46:13,166 --> 00:46:14,566
the perpetrator...

1587
00:46:14,566 --> 00:46:15,633
>> But optimistic for the

1588
00:46:15,633 --> 00:46:16,466
rest of us.

1589
00:46:16,466 --> 00:46:17,433
>> Optimistic for the rest of

1590
00:46:17,433 --> 00:46:18,500
us.

1591
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,266
We'll take leave of that poison

1592
00:46:20,266 --> 00:46:23,866
in the Jazz Age New York, but

1593
00:46:23,866 --> 00:46:27,033
fascinating tour of cases and

1594
00:46:27,033 --> 00:46:29,300
perpetrators and sleuths.

1595
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:30,800
>> Thank you, it's really been a

1596
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,533
pleasure being here.

1597
00:46:32,533 --> 00:46:34,033
>> My guest has been Deborah

1598
00:46:34,033 --> 00:46:35,400
Blum.

1599
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,400
She's the author of "The

1600
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,000
Poisoner's Handbook."

1601
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,066
I'm Norman Gilliland,

1602
00:46:39,066 --> 00:46:40,133
thanks for joining me.

1603
00:46:40,133 --> 00:46:41,100
I hope you'll be with me next

1604
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:43,133
time for University Place.