1 00:00:01,933 --> 00:00:04,733 - Today we are pleased to introduce Dr. Patrick Steele 2 00:00:04,833 --> 00:00:06,766 as part of the Wisconsin Historical Museum's 3 00:00:06,866 --> 00:00:09,100 History Sandwiched In lecture series. 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,433 The opinions expressed today are those of the presenter, 5 00:00:11,533 --> 00:00:13,000 and are not necessarily those of the 6 00:00:13,100 --> 00:00:17,566 Wisconsin Historical Society or the museum's employees. 7 00:00:17,666 --> 00:00:20,566 (laughter) 8 00:00:21,566 --> 00:00:23,700 Patrick W. Steele is an associate professor 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,033 of history at Concordia University Wisconsin. 10 00:00:27,133 --> 00:00:29,133 He earned his B.A. and M.A. in history 11 00:00:29,233 --> 00:00:31,100 at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. 12 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,133 He attended Marquette University where he earned 13 00:00:33,233 --> 00:00:35,566 his Ph.D. in modern American history. 14 00:00:35,666 --> 00:00:37,766 Before arriving at Concordia, he taught at the 15 00:00:37,866 --> 00:00:39,566 University of Wisconsin-Fox Valley, 16 00:00:39,666 --> 00:00:41,266 the University of Wisconsin-Fond du Lac 17 00:00:41,366 --> 00:00:43,466 and Wisconsin Luther College. 18 00:00:43,566 --> 00:00:45,433 Here today to discuss how and why Milwaukee 19 00:00:45,533 --> 00:00:47,233 lost its beloved Braves to Atlanta, 20 00:00:47,333 --> 00:00:49,233 please join me in welcoming Patrick Steele. 21 00:00:49,333 --> 00:00:51,666 (applause) 22 00:00:51,766 --> 00:00:53,566 - Thank you, thank you. 23 00:00:54,633 --> 00:00:57,266 It's a pleasure being here, thank you very much. 24 00:00:57,366 --> 00:00:58,866 It's great to see the attendance. 25 00:00:58,966 --> 00:01:01,266 I wish I had room in here for everybody. 26 00:01:01,366 --> 00:01:03,366 Hopefully you can see the slides from wherever you are, 27 00:01:03,466 --> 00:01:05,500 but thank you very much from the bottom of my heart. 28 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,500 It's always nice when I go out and talk 29 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,700 to see a lot of people out here. 30 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,700 And, kind of the focus today, with the book coming out, 31 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,300 I really wanted to talk about the fan base, 32 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,900 because every time I come, I meet people that talk 33 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,500 about their memories of being there, seeing the Braves play, 34 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,300 the connection they had, getting a chance 35 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,700 to meet the players, and the sadness that they had 36 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,000 when the team left, and I think for me that's 37 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:31,700 one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book. 38 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,466 Not having lived through it, they left before I was born, 39 00:01:35,566 --> 00:01:38,766 I think that maybe there's a little bit of objectivity 40 00:01:38,866 --> 00:01:40,833 in looking back from my perspective. 41 00:01:40,933 --> 00:01:45,533 And it really may be, it is an attempt to tell the story why 42 00:01:45,633 --> 00:01:48,200 so that fans who grew up with the team will maybe 43 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:49,933 understand a little bit, ultimately 44 00:01:50,033 --> 00:01:51,866 why the team is no longer here. 45 00:01:51,966 --> 00:01:54,433 So we're going to talk a little bit about the fan base, 46 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:56,966 talk about Milwaukee in particular, southeastern Wisconsin. 47 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,866 Wisconsin and Milwaukee had long time 48 00:02:00,966 --> 00:02:04,433 success in minor league baseball. 49 00:02:04,533 --> 00:02:08,333 In fact the American Association Milwaukee Brewers 50 00:02:08,433 --> 00:02:12,066 won the Little World Series both in 1951 and 1952. 51 00:02:12,166 --> 00:02:14,800 They were part of the overall Braves organization. 52 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:16,766 They played down at little Borchert Field, 53 00:02:16,866 --> 00:02:19,233 and if you're familiar with Bob Buege's book, 54 00:02:19,333 --> 00:02:22,066 Bob wrote the foreword for mine, he also wrote a book on Borchert Field. 55 00:02:22,166 --> 00:02:24,900 I highly encourage you to take a look at it, it's a great read. 56 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,700 But the Brewers were very successful, 57 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,533 and without the Brewers, and the success they had 58 00:02:29,633 --> 00:02:31,566 at Borchert Field, there never would have been 59 00:02:31,666 --> 00:02:33,666 pressure to ultimately try and do 60 00:02:33,766 --> 00:02:35,766 something bigger as far as a stadium. 61 00:02:35,866 --> 00:02:37,966 And I talk about it a little bit in my book, 62 00:02:38,066 --> 00:02:40,466 but the whole idea of building a municipal stadium 63 00:02:40,566 --> 00:02:44,266 was kind of a foreign concept, and it really was a stretch, 64 00:02:44,366 --> 00:02:46,766 and maybe a little bit visionary by Milwaukee County 65 00:02:46,866 --> 00:02:49,566 ultimately to do this, to build a stadium 66 00:02:49,666 --> 00:02:51,900 ostensibly for a minor league team, 67 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,633 but the reality was they were hoping 68 00:02:53,733 --> 00:02:55,666 to garner a major league team. 69 00:02:55,766 --> 00:02:58,033 If Major League Baseball ever expanded, 70 00:02:58,133 --> 00:03:01,066 or if, for the first time in decades, 71 00:03:01,166 --> 00:03:03,666 a team made the decision to move. 72 00:03:03,766 --> 00:03:05,500 The first team they really set their eyes on, 73 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,200 and people are always shocked about this, 74 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:09,833 was the St. Louis Cardinals. 75 00:03:09,933 --> 00:03:13,933 The Cardinals were under an ownership group 76 00:03:14,033 --> 00:03:16,300 that got into a little bit of trouble, 77 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,266 and Major League Baseball, in particular the National League, 78 00:03:18,366 --> 00:03:19,933 was forcing their owner out, and Fred Miller, 79 00:03:20,033 --> 00:03:21,833 the president of Miller Brewing Company, 80 00:03:21,933 --> 00:03:23,700 made a strong effort to try and 81 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,200 get the St. Louis Cardinals to come here. 82 00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:29,266 When Augie Busch figured out that Fred Miller, 83 00:03:29,366 --> 00:03:31,933 one of his rivals, was attempting to buy the team, 84 00:03:32,033 --> 00:03:34,700 the Busch family did buy into the Cardinals ownership 85 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,700 that they still retain to this day. 86 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,833 And so that never happened, and that pretty much 87 00:03:40,933 --> 00:03:45,100 could have been the story, except for this gentleman here. 88 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,233 Some of you know who he is by picture, 89 00:03:47,333 --> 00:03:48,833 others maybe by reputation. 90 00:03:48,933 --> 00:03:52,466 This of course is the world famous Bill Veeck. 91 00:03:52,566 --> 00:03:55,400 Now Veeck was the owner of the minor league Brewers 92 00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:58,033 for a period of time in the 1940s. 93 00:03:59,033 --> 00:04:02,000 He's the son of the president of the Chicago Cubs, 94 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:04,766 and really was the innovator. 95 00:04:04,866 --> 00:04:06,966 Some may argue is the Clown Prince of Baseball. 96 00:04:07,066 --> 00:04:08,800 I don't know if he was that, maybe he was 97 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:10,666 simply the Clown Prince of Promoting, 98 00:04:10,766 --> 00:04:13,600 but certainly this guy always never seemed to have 99 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:15,966 two nickels to his own name, but managed to buy 100 00:04:16,066 --> 00:04:19,700 into multiple major league franchises at one point. 101 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,900 Well, he owned the Brewers, like I said. 102 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,800 Sold them when he came out of World War II 103 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:25,566 because he wanted to buy a major league team. 104 00:04:25,666 --> 00:04:27,533 He was lucky enough to buy the Cleveland Indians 105 00:04:27,633 --> 00:04:29,100 right as they were peaking. 106 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,033 He was the president of their club when they 107 00:04:31,133 --> 00:04:34,000 played the Boston Braves in 1948. 108 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:35,633 Sold the team shortly thereafter. 109 00:04:35,733 --> 00:04:37,533 He ultimately put another ownership group 110 00:04:37,633 --> 00:04:40,000 to buy the St. Louis Browns. 111 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:43,133 Now the St. Louis Browns have a strong Milwaukee connection. 112 00:04:43,233 --> 00:04:44,566 Some of you are familiar with this. 113 00:04:44,666 --> 00:04:46,566 The Browns were originally the 114 00:04:46,666 --> 00:04:48,233 major league Milwaukee Brewers. 115 00:04:48,333 --> 00:04:52,033 In the American League in 1901, one of the charter members. 116 00:04:52,133 --> 00:04:55,000 Well, Veeck bought the team, he bought Sportsman Park 117 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,466 where they played down in St. Louis, 118 00:04:57,566 --> 00:05:00,866 realized that even though the Cardinals 119 00:05:00,966 --> 00:05:02,833 were renting Sportsman Park from him, 120 00:05:02,933 --> 00:05:05,466 they were not making enough revenue in there as the Browns, 121 00:05:05,566 --> 00:05:07,300 and needed to go somewhere else. 122 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,700 Milwaukee was scheduled to open up a new stadium. 123 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,233 There was a possibility that maybe they could go there. 124 00:05:15,333 --> 00:05:18,366 Now before he was able to buy the Browns, 125 00:05:18,466 --> 00:05:22,433 he was competing for that with this gentleman here. 126 00:05:22,533 --> 00:05:24,300 This is Fred Miller. 127 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,000 Fred Miller is the president of Miller Brewing, 128 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:28,700 grandson of the founder. 129 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,000 He is probably the most prominent 130 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,933 Wisconsin sports official that we have had. 131 00:05:35,033 --> 00:05:37,500 He's in the College Football Hall of Fame, 132 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,200 played for Knute Rockne at Notre Dame, 133 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:40,933 he was on the Packers board of directors, 134 00:05:41,033 --> 00:05:43,233 was instrumental in bringing Miller Brewing 135 00:05:43,333 --> 00:05:47,433 as a major sponsor to the NFL saving the franchise up there. 136 00:05:47,533 --> 00:05:50,500 He was also instrumental in building County Stadium, 137 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,500 building the Milwaukee Arena, have a strong influence 138 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,600 on all three of the major professional sports 139 00:05:58,700 --> 00:06:00,166 that play in Wisconsin today, the NBA, 140 00:06:00,266 --> 00:06:03,000 Major League Baseball, and the NFL. 141 00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:05,500 Fred Miller was also part of a group 142 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,666 trying to buy the St. Louis Cardinals, 143 00:06:08,766 --> 00:06:10,733 or excuse me, the St. Louis Browns. 144 00:06:10,833 --> 00:06:12,933 And he got undercut a little bit by Bill Veeck, 145 00:06:13,033 --> 00:06:14,700 and he and Veeck had been friends, 146 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,100 because Miller had sponsored the minor league Brewers 147 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,833 for several years, so they had a strong connection there. 148 00:06:19,933 --> 00:06:23,366 And I don't know if Miller ever got over the fact that 149 00:06:23,466 --> 00:06:25,433 Bill Veeck bought the team out from underneath him, 150 00:06:25,533 --> 00:06:28,133 because I think that Miller really wanted to buy the team, 151 00:06:28,233 --> 00:06:30,200 bring it here, and he was so dedicated to 152 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:33,000 southeastern Wisconsin, that had he done that, 153 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:34,466 we probably still would be the home 154 00:06:34,566 --> 00:06:36,466 of the major league Brewers, but they would have been 155 00:06:36,566 --> 00:06:40,166 part of that original franchise that's now playing in Baltimore. 156 00:06:40,266 --> 00:06:42,933 So Miller is behind the scenes really pushing to get 157 00:06:43,033 --> 00:06:49,533 either St. Louis Browns, Cardinals, or eventually 158 00:06:49,633 --> 00:06:51,966 the Boston Braves potentially to come. 159 00:06:52,066 --> 00:06:54,000 And what would bring a team to Milwaukee? 160 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:56,900 And that's what I want to talk about a little bit. 161 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,233 This is one of the original postcards, 162 00:06:59,333 --> 00:07:00,833 Milwaukee County Stadium. 163 00:07:00,933 --> 00:07:02,933 As I look around here, I'm pretty sure everybody 164 00:07:03,033 --> 00:07:05,133 in here maybe went to a game at County Stadium 165 00:07:05,233 --> 00:07:07,133 or certainly saw a game. 166 00:07:07,233 --> 00:07:09,666 Nobody here would ever argue that County Stadium 167 00:07:09,766 --> 00:07:12,833 was a destination spot. (laughter) 168 00:07:12,933 --> 00:07:15,166 I have always said it looked like it was 169 00:07:15,266 --> 00:07:17,800 designed by East German architects 170 00:07:17,900 --> 00:07:20,300 and built by a Soviet engineering firm. 171 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,266 (laughter) 172 00:07:22,366 --> 00:07:26,033 But it fit the bill for what was ostensibly 173 00:07:26,133 --> 00:07:27,500 to be a minor league ballpark. 174 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,166 You can see the original design for it 175 00:07:30,266 --> 00:07:33,866 was to be wide open on the sides, particular here. 176 00:07:33,966 --> 00:07:36,500 And this would give view to the veterans 177 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,666 up on what they called the old Soldiers Home. 178 00:07:38,766 --> 00:07:41,400 It's part of the VA facility now in Milwaukee, 179 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:44,433 but they actually had grandstands built out there 180 00:07:44,533 --> 00:07:46,300 where the veterans could go out, sit there, 181 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:47,766 and they could watch a game. 182 00:07:47,866 --> 00:07:49,266 It was part of the deal to actually 183 00:07:49,366 --> 00:07:50,966 get the ground to put County Stadium up, 184 00:07:51,066 --> 00:07:54,300 because originally that was federal land. 185 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,166 So it did take an Act of Congress to get this built. 186 00:07:59,166 --> 00:08:02,866 One of my favorite photographs of the stadium 187 00:08:02,966 --> 00:08:04,700 is this one right here. 188 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,600 This one's probably from about '54, '55. 189 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:09,566 It's got the bunting on from opening day. 190 00:08:09,666 --> 00:08:12,000 It's got the teepees on there 191 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:14,766 to really kind of showcase what it was. 192 00:08:14,866 --> 00:08:17,366 For people of my generation that grew up with the Brewers, 193 00:08:17,466 --> 00:08:19,700 it's a little bit unusual not to see in bolden letters 194 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,066 on the side Milwaukee County Stadium, 195 00:08:22,166 --> 00:08:24,666 but this of course is before some of the major renovations 196 00:08:24,766 --> 00:08:27,100 that went into the ballpark to actually come. 197 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,800 Now, when Lou Perini makes the decision 198 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:32,766 to bring the team here, and there's a 199 00:08:32,866 --> 00:08:37,566 long story behind that, I'll keep it short, in theory. 200 00:08:38,766 --> 00:08:41,666 People ask me, and it's in the book, but 201 00:08:41,766 --> 00:08:44,366 "Why did the Boston Braves leave?" 202 00:08:44,466 --> 00:08:45,933 And the answer's really simple. 203 00:08:46,033 --> 00:08:49,400 They drew 280,000, just barely more than 280,000 204 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:51,400 for the entire 1952 season. 205 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,733 Now even though Perini owned his own stadium, 206 00:08:54,833 --> 00:08:56,633 he owned Braves Field, there was limited parking 207 00:08:56,733 --> 00:08:59,800 around the facility, they were clearly a second tier 208 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:02,333 team in compare to the Boston Red Sox, 209 00:09:02,433 --> 00:09:07,066 but Lou Perini, like Fred Miller, was a local guy. 210 00:09:07,166 --> 00:09:10,600 He was a Boston guy, he was a New England guy 211 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:12,633 through and through, he wanted to save the team. 212 00:09:12,733 --> 00:09:15,600 He ultimately believed if he had one more year, 213 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:19,166 if he had 1953, he could have saved the team in Boston. 214 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:23,600 And there is a possibility, because what he knew 215 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:25,733 was what became evident on the field. 216 00:09:25,833 --> 00:09:27,900 The team was really good. 217 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,300 It was on the verge of becoming really good. 218 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,166 And there were a few players matriculating 219 00:09:32,266 --> 00:09:34,633 yet through the minor league system. 220 00:09:34,733 --> 00:09:38,000 If he could just get them into Boston before they left, he might have saved it. 221 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:40,366 Unfortunately for him and the fans of Boston, 222 00:09:40,466 --> 00:09:42,600 that would not happen because Bill Veeck 223 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,900 wants to move his St. Louis Browns to Milwaukee, 224 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,466 and he's looking at the stadium. 225 00:09:47,566 --> 00:09:50,800 Now, take a look at a photograph here 226 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:52,900 to kind of explain this. 227 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,666 Well, this is a picture here, and this is what was appealing about it. 228 00:09:55,766 --> 00:09:58,666 This is shortly before the stadium actually opened. 229 00:09:58,766 --> 00:10:01,200 If you look very carefully in the seating bowl 230 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:03,866 down here in the bottom, there's no seats installed yet. 231 00:10:03,966 --> 00:10:06,533 A lot of this would be temporary seats, fold-up seats 232 00:10:06,633 --> 00:10:09,200 that they would have for the first season at least, 233 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:11,666 in some places going into '54. 234 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,033 Portions of the scoreboard out in right field 235 00:10:16,133 --> 00:10:18,466 were parts that were eventually brought in 236 00:10:18,566 --> 00:10:21,133 from the old Braves Field in Boston. 237 00:10:21,233 --> 00:10:24,333 They moved some of the parts here, including the organ. 238 00:10:24,433 --> 00:10:26,733 But you can look at the stadium and you can see that 239 00:10:26,833 --> 00:10:29,966 in our vision, if you've been there towards the end, 240 00:10:30,066 --> 00:10:31,833 this doesn't look like it. 241 00:10:31,933 --> 00:10:35,533 One of the things that Lou Perini did in his agreement 242 00:10:35,633 --> 00:10:37,333 with the Milwaukee County Board was, 243 00:10:37,433 --> 00:10:42,066 "If I bring my team, you need to put some improvements in." 244 00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:44,566 Now this is a brand new ballpark, hadn't even opened yet, 245 00:10:44,666 --> 00:10:47,766 and he put in a request for up to $2 million, 246 00:10:47,866 --> 00:10:50,566 which in 1953 was substantive money, 247 00:10:50,666 --> 00:10:55,033 but he wanted improved lighting, improved office facilities, 248 00:10:55,133 --> 00:10:57,900 the Braves would take up much more headquarters space 249 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,133 in County Stadium than the minor league Brewers would, 250 00:11:00,233 --> 00:11:02,700 had a bigger staff, scouting, all this other stuff, 251 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,066 had to be addressed within the stadium before he agreed to do it. 252 00:11:06,166 --> 00:11:08,533 Fred Miller working behind the scenes helps the County 253 00:11:08,633 --> 00:11:10,866 to go along with this, and ultimately the Braves 254 00:11:10,966 --> 00:11:13,133 will make the decision in March 255 00:11:13,233 --> 00:11:16,000 to come to Milwaukee and give it a shot. 256 00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:18,700 And they were greeted by an overwhelming fan base. 257 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,300 And again, some of these pictures, I realize, 258 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,900 focus specifically on the stadium, 259 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,900 but that's where the fans go, right? 260 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,000 That's the place where you go to meet. 261 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:30,866 Now, the photograph I have up next is also one of my favorites. 262 00:11:30,966 --> 00:11:32,566 This is taken much much later. 263 00:11:32,666 --> 00:11:35,600 This is actually taken just before Miller Park was built. 264 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:38,066 You can see by this photograph, and the reason I love it 265 00:11:38,166 --> 00:11:40,266 is if you look at the roof line of the stadium 266 00:11:40,366 --> 00:11:42,800 you can see the areas that they added on. 267 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:46,233 This was all done during the Braves tenure. 268 00:11:46,333 --> 00:11:49,166 Part of it was because in '53 and '54 269 00:11:49,266 --> 00:11:51,533 it was so hard to get seats for the fans that wanted 270 00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:54,833 to come up that they needed to keep expanding the facility. 271 00:11:54,933 --> 00:11:56,466 So it turned out to be much bigger 272 00:11:56,566 --> 00:11:58,200 than they ever anticipated. 273 00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:00,100 Now if you remember my story that I told 274 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,833 in the beginning about having the opening 275 00:12:01,933 --> 00:12:04,300 to the side so the veterans up on the hill, 276 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,933 well this blocked off their view. 277 00:12:07,033 --> 00:12:08,700 So what the team would offer then, 278 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,933 is seats inside the stadium at a reduced cost, 279 00:12:12,033 --> 00:12:14,133 and they would set a block aside every game 280 00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:17,633 and if within 24 hours, if those tickets were still available, 281 00:12:17,733 --> 00:12:20,666 then they would turn around and sell those to the fans. 282 00:12:20,766 --> 00:12:22,566 What you can also see in this photograph, too, 283 00:12:22,666 --> 00:12:29,600 is the fully-developed bleacher areas in the outfield. 284 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,133 That would not come until very late in the Braves tenure. 285 00:12:32,233 --> 00:12:35,900 Prior to that it was gravel and temporary seating out there, 286 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,533 and it was not very conducive to fans 287 00:12:37,633 --> 00:12:39,166 that had to sit out in the bleachers, 288 00:12:39,266 --> 00:12:41,266 particularly women wearing high heeled shoes 289 00:12:41,366 --> 00:12:42,833 had a hard time walking through there 290 00:12:42,933 --> 00:12:45,166 because it was simply gravel underneath, 291 00:12:45,266 --> 00:12:48,333 it would attract flies and mosquitoes. 292 00:12:48,433 --> 00:12:49,933 It was not a particularly nice place 293 00:12:50,033 --> 00:12:52,933 to go catch a game on a nice humid day, 294 00:12:53,033 --> 00:12:54,933 so eventually they would put asphalt underneath 295 00:12:55,033 --> 00:12:56,700 and they put the nice bleachers up there. 296 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,666 But, again, this is much much bigger 297 00:12:58,766 --> 00:13:01,300 than the County ever envisioned that they would have. 298 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,233 And the seating capacity was much bigger 299 00:13:03,333 --> 00:13:05,233 than they had ever expected, and part of it was 300 00:13:05,333 --> 00:13:08,366 because of all of the fans that showed up. 301 00:13:08,466 --> 00:13:12,000 Now, from this photograph, we'll take a look at this one. 302 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:14,566 This is actually taken from 1953. 303 00:13:14,666 --> 00:13:19,300 This is within the first summer of baseball being played there. 304 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,100 You can see the temporary seating in the outfield, 305 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:23,533 a lot of people sitting down. 306 00:13:23,633 --> 00:13:26,133 There's a clear cyclone fence that kind of 307 00:13:26,233 --> 00:13:28,200 runs the perimeter of the field. 308 00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:30,933 But the neat part is, as you look around, 309 00:13:31,033 --> 00:13:37,133 all the sections are filled, and this was fairly common. 310 00:13:37,233 --> 00:13:39,233 Now part of it was because the excitement 311 00:13:39,333 --> 00:13:42,400 of actually having major league baseball. 312 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,233 And one of the things I'll talk about as the presentation goes, 313 00:13:45,333 --> 00:13:48,100 is the whole idea of fan retention. 314 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,100 That bringing fans in is part of the experience. 315 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,000 My wife and I went to the Brewers-Braves series 316 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,600 over the weekend, and I try to go every year the Braves come to town. 317 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:01,800 I always take my mom because she likes to boo them, 318 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:04,500 so as long as the Brewers have been in the National League 319 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,800 I take my mom out there so she has her chance to do that. 320 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:11,366 But just walking the ballpark, my wife and I were talking, 321 00:14:11,466 --> 00:14:13,166 and when our kids were little, when we used to 322 00:14:13,266 --> 00:14:15,033 take them to County Stadium, there was nothing really 323 00:14:15,133 --> 00:14:17,966 for kids to do, because you went there to watch baseball. 324 00:14:18,066 --> 00:14:21,166 You didn't go there to play on slides and swings, right? 325 00:14:21,266 --> 00:14:23,766 You didn't go there to go throw a simulated ball. 326 00:14:23,866 --> 00:14:26,333 You went there to see a baseball game. 327 00:14:26,433 --> 00:14:28,700 So the dynamics of the way we view games now 328 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,900 and fan retention, things that they do 329 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,833 to keep fans at the ball park, 330 00:14:32,933 --> 00:14:36,600 is much different now than it used to be back in the day. 331 00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:39,100 But you can see here, full stands mean 332 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,433 full concession sales, all kinds of other things going on, 333 00:14:41,533 --> 00:14:43,733 and it was a great time to be a Braves fan 334 00:14:43,833 --> 00:14:47,566 because the team moves, and they got good. 335 00:14:47,666 --> 00:14:50,000 And they were, of all the teams that are going to move, 336 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:54,833 and I'll show you this in some slides I have a little bit down the road, 337 00:14:54,933 --> 00:14:57,300 they'll move and they got good. 338 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,800 That was the exception to the rule. 339 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:02,800 Because almost every other team that moved with the exception of the Braves 340 00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:05,400 and in theory the Los Angeles Dodgers, 341 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:07,666 every other team that moved was a second-tier team 342 00:15:07,766 --> 00:15:10,666 that was not particularly good and not really competitive. 343 00:15:10,766 --> 00:15:14,333 And certainly that bears out when you look at attendance factors. 344 00:15:14,433 --> 00:15:16,300 One other photograph I'm going to show you here 345 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,133 about a stadium, and you can tell I'm 346 00:15:18,233 --> 00:15:20,700 very fascinated by County Stadium, 347 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,400 is an overhead shot taken in 1959. 348 00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:26,400 And again you can see that there is more 349 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,666 of the temporary bleacher buildup in the outfield. 350 00:15:29,766 --> 00:15:33,833 It's not complete, if you look very carefully, from the left field 351 00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:36,566 foul line over to center field, you can see 352 00:15:36,666 --> 00:15:38,800 what looks like a pasture almost. 353 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,200 That was from the temporary seating that they put up there 354 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:43,733 during the previous fall for Packer games. 355 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,533 So it's one of the things obviously that we lost 356 00:15:48,633 --> 00:15:51,600 when the Brewers made the decision to move to Miller Park, 357 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:54,300 and the decision was made to eliminate County Stadium. 358 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,433 Obviously we lost the ability to host Packer games 359 00:15:56,533 --> 00:15:59,200 down in Milwaukee, but certainly the Packers 360 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:01,800 have accommodated Packers fans from the area 361 00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:03,800 by offering tickets up there, but prior to that 362 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,166 when the stadium was built, that was one of the other deals 363 00:16:06,266 --> 00:16:08,833 to help get the taxpayers in the county to help do it. 364 00:16:08,933 --> 00:16:10,800 The Packers were playing some games, 365 00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:13,533 they played some out at, originally at Borchert Field, 366 00:16:13,633 --> 00:16:16,433 they played some out at State Fair Park, kind of played all over the place. 367 00:16:16,533 --> 00:16:19,666 County Stadium was not a perfect place to see an NFL game, 368 00:16:19,766 --> 00:16:22,833 but, boy, in the 1950s and 1960s, if you got a ticket 369 00:16:22,933 --> 00:16:25,033 out at County Stadium to see those Packer teams play, 370 00:16:25,133 --> 00:16:27,933 I don't think you're complaining too much, right? 371 00:16:28,033 --> 00:16:30,500 The other thing I want to point out, too, 372 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,000 is the expansive parking lots. 373 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:35,500 And this is one of the reasons that made Milwaukee 374 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,533 attractive, it's also going to be one of the reasons 375 00:16:37,633 --> 00:16:40,466 why the Braves ultimately will leave. 376 00:16:40,566 --> 00:16:42,800 While the fans are paying to be in the stadium, 377 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:44,466 you see all those cars there? 378 00:16:44,566 --> 00:16:46,133 So I'm standing here right now, 379 00:16:46,233 --> 00:16:49,333 and if I took a guess from everybody here, 380 00:16:49,433 --> 00:16:51,066 most people, unless they've read the book, 381 00:16:51,166 --> 00:16:53,666 would not know how much the Braves made off the parking lot. 382 00:16:53,766 --> 00:16:56,733 See all those cars there? You know how much money they made that day? 383 00:16:56,833 --> 00:16:58,466 Nothing. Not a dime. 384 00:16:58,566 --> 00:17:00,733 The Braves did not get any of the parking lot revenue. 385 00:17:00,833 --> 00:17:03,333 That all went directly to the County. 386 00:17:03,433 --> 00:17:06,166 So you can see the lost revenue opportunities 387 00:17:06,266 --> 00:17:08,000 for a team like the Braves, but other owners 388 00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:10,433 like Walter O'Malley of the Dodgers, 389 00:17:10,533 --> 00:17:12,500 he looks at what he had at Ebbets Field, 390 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,300 while baseball fans look at Ebbets field nostalgically, 391 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,100 it was beautiful, it was all these other things. 392 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,633 There's no parking around it. It was not easy to get to. 393 00:17:20,733 --> 00:17:22,900 What did people want in the post-World War II era? 394 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,433 They want to get in their car, they want to go to the ball game, 395 00:17:25,533 --> 00:17:28,666 they want to be able to get their stuff, and they want to be able to go home. 396 00:17:28,766 --> 00:17:30,466 You're out in a wide-open area here. 397 00:17:30,566 --> 00:17:32,466 You're not leaving your car in a neighborhood. 398 00:17:32,566 --> 00:17:36,500 You are leaving your car out around the expansive lots 399 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,233 of the stadium, you could tailgate, 400 00:17:38,333 --> 00:17:40,000 you could do all those other things. 401 00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:42,066 Owners are looking at it as pure revenue 402 00:17:42,166 --> 00:17:44,200 that's directly to their bottom line. 403 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:46,600 Helps pay for scouts and stadium maintenance 404 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:48,633 and all these other things, but the Braves 405 00:17:48,733 --> 00:17:51,400 wouldn't get any of that revenue. 406 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,366 Now as we talk about the fans, 407 00:17:54,466 --> 00:17:57,700 and we talk about the Milwaukee Braves, 408 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,166 we talk about some of the fan favorites. 409 00:18:00,266 --> 00:18:02,466 And I don't talk a lot about players in the book 410 00:18:02,566 --> 00:18:05,166 because they're not a major part of the book. 411 00:18:05,266 --> 00:18:07,266 But I like to point it out whenever I have a chance 412 00:18:07,366 --> 00:18:09,066 to talk to people like you is that guys like 413 00:18:09,166 --> 00:18:11,266 Johnny Logan, Logan played both for the Brewers, 414 00:18:11,366 --> 00:18:13,333 you can see there in his Brewers uniform. 415 00:18:13,433 --> 00:18:16,766 If you look very carefully actually, it's stylized to look like the Braves. 416 00:18:16,866 --> 00:18:20,233 The Braves ownership group bought them in 1946. 417 00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:22,433 You can see the cap that he's wearing. 418 00:18:22,533 --> 00:18:25,133 Everybody identifies it today as a Milwaukee Braves cap. 419 00:18:25,233 --> 00:18:28,400 It was technically a Milwaukee Brewers cap before it was a Braves cap. 420 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:31,166 And there of course is Johnny Logan when he was playing for the Braves. 421 00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:35,133 Photographs taken at spring training I think in '57. 422 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,900 But the fans loved the players, 423 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,766 and the players loved the fans, because there wasn't 424 00:18:41,866 --> 00:18:44,700 as much of a disconnect between the players and the people. 425 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,233 Baseball players then weren't making 106% 426 00:18:48,333 --> 00:18:51,433 of what the average person was making or more. 427 00:18:51,533 --> 00:18:54,800 They were making more than most people, 428 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:57,466 but they were still living in local neighborhoods. 429 00:18:57,566 --> 00:18:59,033 A gentleman here before told a story 430 00:18:59,133 --> 00:19:01,166 about getting a baseball signed from Eddie Matthews, 431 00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:04,500 who was that that was telling me that story? 432 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,133 My aunt tells stories of when she was a kid, 433 00:19:08,233 --> 00:19:11,366 going to play catch with Lew Burdette, right down the block. 434 00:19:11,466 --> 00:19:13,566 People have all kinds of stories like that 435 00:19:13,666 --> 00:19:15,433 when the Braves were in town, 436 00:19:15,533 --> 00:19:17,166 and there was a connection that they had, 437 00:19:17,266 --> 00:19:20,300 and the Braves, particularly those who had played in Boston, 438 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:21,933 really loved the fact that they were 439 00:19:22,033 --> 00:19:24,100 embraced so well by the community. 440 00:19:25,266 --> 00:19:27,966 And that embracing by the community 441 00:19:28,066 --> 00:19:30,333 wasn't just Milwaukee County. 442 00:19:31,366 --> 00:19:34,233 It wasn't just southeastern Wisconsin. 443 00:19:34,333 --> 00:19:36,700 It was the state of Wisconsin. 444 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,233 And it's shocking for some people 445 00:19:38,333 --> 00:19:41,733 when we think about this in the 21st century, 446 00:19:41,833 --> 00:19:46,666 but if you polled people in Wisconsin in '55, '56, '57, 447 00:19:46,766 --> 00:19:49,933 their favorite team was the Braves, not the Packers. 448 00:19:50,033 --> 00:19:52,300 Then it's shocking for people, 449 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,866 because the Packers have been king for so long, 450 00:19:54,966 --> 00:19:56,866 they don't understand how big the Braves were 451 00:19:56,966 --> 00:19:59,033 for that window of time. 452 00:19:59,133 --> 00:20:02,100 Of course part of the window of time that they were so good 453 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,266 is because of men like this, Warren Spahn. 454 00:20:05,366 --> 00:20:08,200 The all-time winningest left-hand pitcher 455 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:10,200 in Major League Baseball. 456 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:12,633 Yet we don't have a statue to him in Milwaukee. 457 00:20:12,733 --> 00:20:17,166 They had one in Atlanta where he never played, but we don't have one here. 458 00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:20,133 So, if we could do anything, let's get the movement going 459 00:20:20,233 --> 00:20:22,666 to get a statue here for Warren Spahn. 460 00:20:22,766 --> 00:20:26,200 But Spahnny was the ultimate Milwaukee Brave. 461 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:29,100 People argue, was it Aaron, was it Matthews. 462 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,800 Was it one of those guys? 463 00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:35,433 Maybe, but Spahnny had that gravitas before he came here. 464 00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:37,100 People knew who he was. 465 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,300 We mentioned the 1948 World Series before. 466 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,333 You know, Spahn and Sain then pray for rain. 467 00:20:41,433 --> 00:20:43,966 I mean, he was a known commodity. 468 00:20:44,066 --> 00:20:48,500 But he was the face of the organization 469 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,433 for most of the time they were here in Milwaukee, 470 00:20:50,533 --> 00:20:52,000 and he was somebody that the fans 471 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,000 really really responded to. 472 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,366 I would have loved to have seen him pitch. 473 00:20:57,466 --> 00:20:59,100 I got to see him throw out the last 474 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,133 opening day first pitch to Del Crandall. 475 00:21:02,233 --> 00:21:05,333 It really was neat to see him out there. 476 00:21:05,433 --> 00:21:08,433 He was very feeble by that point, but it was still 477 00:21:08,533 --> 00:21:10,900 that he took the time to come up here 478 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,666 to pay his respects to the fans, 479 00:21:12,766 --> 00:21:14,600 shows you how much all of you meant to him 480 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,900 and I think that's the neatest part of the story. 481 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,000 So I'm going to transition a little bit from 482 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:21,800 showing you a couple of these cool pictures 483 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:23,333 and talk a little bit about retention, 484 00:21:23,433 --> 00:21:25,666 because retention's going to be one of the big things 485 00:21:25,766 --> 00:21:28,666 that help you understand the dynamics of 486 00:21:28,766 --> 00:21:31,666 why the Braves are no longer here. 487 00:21:31,766 --> 00:21:34,133 So I'm going to show you a couple graphs, 488 00:21:34,233 --> 00:21:36,500 and you're going to get used to one particular graph line, 489 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,533 because I'm going to show it to you in comparison to a couple of the other teams. 490 00:21:39,633 --> 00:21:41,933 And I do this so we really kind of grasp 491 00:21:42,033 --> 00:21:46,733 ultimately why the team is as successful as we thought, 492 00:21:46,833 --> 00:21:49,900 because certainly they were, in particular 493 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,400 in comparison to other teams. 494 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,533 So let's look at the first one. 495 00:21:54,633 --> 00:21:57,000 This is season attendance following relocation. 496 00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:01,033 Now understand this, and I talk about this in the book. 497 00:22:01,133 --> 00:22:03,900 Attendance alone is not an indicator 498 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,533 of the profitability of a baseball club or a football club. 499 00:22:07,633 --> 00:22:10,266 For example, when you look at this graph, 500 00:22:11,866 --> 00:22:14,300 the Atlanta Braves would make more money 501 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,233 playing in an empty stadium than they would make 502 00:22:18,333 --> 00:22:20,133 playing in front of a full stadium 503 00:22:20,233 --> 00:22:22,500 at Milwaukee County Stadium. 504 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,466 It's just the dynamics of broadcast revenue 505 00:22:25,566 --> 00:22:27,300 and all the advertising things that go with it 506 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,733 so it's not the only indicator. 507 00:22:29,833 --> 00:22:32,433 I'm putting this in because one of the things 508 00:22:32,533 --> 00:22:34,166 that irritated me the most when I was 509 00:22:34,266 --> 00:22:36,366 doing the research for the book, 510 00:22:36,466 --> 00:22:38,266 was that the Braves organization 511 00:22:38,366 --> 00:22:42,133 still to this day blames the fans. 512 00:22:42,233 --> 00:22:44,466 They blame the fans for not showing up. 513 00:22:44,566 --> 00:22:47,066 They talk about empty stands and this was the reason 514 00:22:47,166 --> 00:22:48,666 why the team ultimately had to leave 515 00:22:48,766 --> 00:22:50,500 and go to Atlanta because the fans weren't there. 516 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,566 And it's just not accurate, 517 00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:56,466 because there were more fans in the worst year 518 00:22:56,566 --> 00:22:58,566 prior to the lame duck year, there were more fans 519 00:22:58,666 --> 00:23:00,233 that went to games at Milwaukee County Stadium 520 00:23:00,333 --> 00:23:03,433 than went to games at Wrigley Field that year. 521 00:23:03,533 --> 00:23:06,066 That went to games at Fenway Park. 522 00:23:06,166 --> 00:23:07,733 And we would never say Boston or Chicago 523 00:23:07,833 --> 00:23:09,233 are bad baseball towns. 524 00:23:09,333 --> 00:23:11,933 Yet, Milwaukee was labeled as a bad baseball town. 525 00:23:12,033 --> 00:23:14,166 Let's take a look at these numbers here. 526 00:23:14,266 --> 00:23:17,300 So if you look at the beginning of the graph you see it starts at minus one. 527 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,966 That's the year before they left. 528 00:23:19,066 --> 00:23:21,066 That's the indicator where they were the year before. 529 00:23:21,166 --> 00:23:25,066 So for example, for the Milwaukee Braves 530 00:23:25,166 --> 00:23:27,066 the year before was when they were in Boston. 531 00:23:27,166 --> 00:23:28,700 They drew about 280,000. 532 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,800 Look at this massive spike up. 533 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,066 So what happens? 534 00:23:33,166 --> 00:23:35,933 The team moves to Milwaukee in 1953, 535 00:23:36,033 --> 00:23:39,500 so year zero is the first year, look at this spike, right? 536 00:23:40,666 --> 00:23:43,033 And it accelerates out the first couple years. 537 00:23:43,133 --> 00:23:44,800 There's a little bit of settling right here, 538 00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:47,400 and then you've got '57, '58, 539 00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:50,000 and then we start to get the decline in '59. 540 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:53,966 Now let's take a look the comparison to the Milwaukee Brewers. 541 00:23:54,066 --> 00:23:55,766 The Milwaukee Brewers when they came in 1970, 542 00:23:55,866 --> 00:23:58,300 so this would be 1969 in Seattle. 543 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,366 It is a much slower, steadier incline. 544 00:24:03,466 --> 00:24:07,300 Now there's a big rise here, and there's a big drop off, 545 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,300 and if you're not familiar with what this is, 546 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,833 this was the 1981 baseball strike. 547 00:24:11,933 --> 00:24:14,700 So that's the only reason why there was the big drop down in attendance, 548 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,766 but you look, it's a much more measured, 549 00:24:17,866 --> 00:24:20,400 slowly building fan base. 550 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:23,233 Now let's look at the Atlanta Braves. 551 00:24:23,333 --> 00:24:28,233 Okay, so the last year, this is 1965 in Milwaukee. 552 00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,666 This is the first year they're in Atlanta. 553 00:24:30,766 --> 00:24:32,966 Look they did not even come close to where they were 554 00:24:33,066 --> 00:24:35,833 when they came to Milwaukee. And look at this. 555 00:24:35,933 --> 00:24:40,400 The attendance line is much much lower the entire time. 556 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:43,500 They get a little bit of spike, look at here, 557 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,366 there's almost a merger at the same point. 558 00:24:45,466 --> 00:24:47,366 That's one of the weirdest anomalies. 559 00:24:47,466 --> 00:24:49,533 There's a merger at almost the exact same point year 11 560 00:24:49,633 --> 00:24:51,333 where they're all at about the same attendance. 561 00:24:51,433 --> 00:24:55,900 And then the Atlanta one kind of stays steady. 562 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,766 The Milwaukee one obviously went down further 563 00:24:57,866 --> 00:25:01,066 in '65 because that was the lame duck year. 564 00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:04,033 Now what do I see in this? 565 00:25:04,133 --> 00:25:07,100 Now again, I'm not a math major, I'm a history professor. 566 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,300 What I see is that fan retention in Milwaukee 567 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,133 was better than it was in Atlanta. 568 00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:14,733 You cannot look at this graph and say 569 00:25:14,833 --> 00:25:18,033 that the fans in Milwaukee were not good fans, okay? 570 00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:20,066 The drop off obviously towards the end 571 00:25:20,166 --> 00:25:22,366 is because everybody knew the team was going to go. 572 00:25:22,466 --> 00:25:24,900 Now one of the arguments I address a little bit in the book, 573 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,533 but I always like to point it out 574 00:25:26,633 --> 00:25:29,300 when I talk to crowds like this, is this is what I believe. 575 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,533 That I believe if you reverse this chart, you start it here. 576 00:25:33,633 --> 00:25:36,666 If this would have been 1953, 577 00:25:36,766 --> 00:25:38,500 and you work your way this way. 578 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,000 And you got a little bit of settling there, we would talk about 579 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,033 one of the greatest successes in baseball, still to this day. 580 00:25:44,133 --> 00:25:47,533 Because it would not have built unrealistic expectations. 581 00:25:47,633 --> 00:25:50,600 See, every team that moved had a dramatic spike 582 00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:52,766 in attendance, but then usually there was 583 00:25:52,866 --> 00:25:56,400 an immediate settling effect, because nobody wanted to pay 584 00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:59,033 good money to go out and see a sixth- or a seventh-place team. 585 00:25:59,133 --> 00:26:01,666 Well which teams are moving? 586 00:26:01,766 --> 00:26:03,900 The Philadelphia Athletics, right? 587 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,066 Their best days were two decades in their past, right? 588 00:26:07,166 --> 00:26:09,833 They were a sixth or seventh place, bottom-feeding team. 589 00:26:09,933 --> 00:26:12,633 St. Louis Browns, the entire time they were in St. Louis, 590 00:26:12,733 --> 00:26:15,000 you know how many pennants they won? One, 591 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:18,900 during the World War, in 1944. 592 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,533 That was it, one pennant the entire time. 593 00:26:22,633 --> 00:26:24,266 Those are the teams that are moving. 594 00:26:24,366 --> 00:26:28,000 The Boston Braves won the World Series in 1914. 595 00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:29,633 They lost it in 1948. 596 00:26:29,733 --> 00:26:31,966 You're not talking about a stellar team 597 00:26:32,066 --> 00:26:34,566 that had just lots of achievement behind it. 598 00:26:34,666 --> 00:26:37,400 Now, again, the exception is the Dodgers, 599 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:39,366 okay, and we'll address that dynamic 600 00:26:39,466 --> 00:26:42,400 a little bit differently in a moment. 601 00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:46,566 So here is a relocation chart that again has 602 00:26:46,666 --> 00:26:48,500 the Braves, it has the Brewers in it, 603 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,133 but it also then has the Baltimore Orioles. 604 00:26:51,233 --> 00:26:54,200 And the Baltimore Orioles of course were the St. Louis Browns. 605 00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,000 Now, of all the major league teams that wanted to move 606 00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:00,333 during this era, only two owners ever got shot down. 607 00:27:00,433 --> 00:27:01,866 One was Bill Veeck. 608 00:27:01,966 --> 00:27:04,433 The owners looked at him as a socialist. 609 00:27:04,533 --> 00:27:08,533 They're like, "Oh, he wants equal pay for everything, 610 00:27:08,633 --> 00:27:11,000 "and we just simply can't have that". 611 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:16,500 And Veeck always looked at it, it's not a fairness issue, 612 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,400 it was a competitive issue. 613 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,900 You can't have the New York Yankees playing in a stadium 614 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,666 playing against the Cleveland Indians, 615 00:27:22,766 --> 00:27:25,400 and one team is making, raw numbers, 616 00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:28,633 say they're making $100,000 and the other teams' making 10. 617 00:27:28,733 --> 00:27:33,300 It creates an unequal playing field, okay? 618 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,933 Well, the Browns ultimately, Veeck is going to get forced out, 619 00:27:38,033 --> 00:27:40,466 new ownership buys the team, they move them to Baltimore. 620 00:27:40,566 --> 00:27:43,866 They said specifically, "We want to repeat the Milwaukee Miracle. 621 00:27:43,966 --> 00:27:46,833 "We want to outdo in '54 what Milwaukee did in '53". 622 00:27:46,933 --> 00:27:49,933 Well, what you can see is they never came close. 623 00:27:50,033 --> 00:27:52,933 But if you look at here again, look at this. 624 00:27:53,033 --> 00:27:56,500 Steady growth, little bit of settling. 625 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,533 Little bit of settling but look at where they are. 626 00:27:58,633 --> 00:28:01,833 Their base number is better than where they started, 627 00:28:01,933 --> 00:28:04,700 but it's not as high as it was 628 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,766 for the most part when they first arrived. 629 00:28:06,866 --> 00:28:10,333 This is a fairly common trend in baseball. 630 00:28:10,433 --> 00:28:15,333 It doesn't happen here, because the Braves got good. 631 00:28:15,433 --> 00:28:19,500 See, that's the thing that makes the Braves story different. 632 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,066 So the next slide, and again, 633 00:28:22,166 --> 00:28:24,333 this is one of the other ones, the Kansas City Athletics. 634 00:28:24,433 --> 00:28:26,633 Again, the Philadelphia Athletics moved to Kansas City, 635 00:28:26,733 --> 00:28:30,500 so this is their last year here in Philadelphia. 636 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,400 You can see the spike up, and again the slow settling 637 00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:37,900 of attendance because they were playing 638 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,233 in a glorified minor league park. 639 00:28:42,333 --> 00:28:44,033 They had an owner ultimately 640 00:28:44,133 --> 00:28:45,866 in Charlie O. Finley that nobody liked. 641 00:28:45,966 --> 00:28:48,833 If you're familiar with the story of the Kansas City Athletics, 642 00:28:48,933 --> 00:28:51,333 Arnold Johnson who owned the team before them 643 00:28:51,433 --> 00:28:53,600 had been the previous owner of Yankee Stadium, 644 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:56,033 had a very very close relationship 645 00:28:56,133 --> 00:28:58,033 with the Yankee ownership, and any great player 646 00:28:58,133 --> 00:29:00,000 that ever seemed to come through Kansas City 647 00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:03,933 got traded to the Yankees, like Roger Maris. 648 00:29:04,033 --> 00:29:07,600 So there's a whole laundry list of incidents like that 649 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,800 so that the fans of the Kansas City Athletics 650 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,733 never really embraced the team as much. 651 00:29:12,833 --> 00:29:15,166 But I'll point this out again, look at, in Kansas City 652 00:29:15,266 --> 00:29:17,933 they were still higher than where they were in Philadelphia, 653 00:29:18,033 --> 00:29:21,500 but you don't have this drop off that 654 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,300 ultimately you'll see later with Milwaukee, 655 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,400 and why does the drop off happen in Milwaukee? 656 00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:30,866 Because, I believe, expectations were too high. 657 00:29:30,966 --> 00:29:32,900 Because when the team moved 658 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,000 and they got good, there was fan interest 659 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:39,500 to keep the attendance artificially high. 660 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,100 There never was a settling effect that had-- 661 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,266 Let's just say for example, the Braves don't 662 00:29:45,366 --> 00:29:47,366 go to the World Series in '57, 663 00:29:47,466 --> 00:29:50,933 and they go instead in like, '62, '63. 664 00:29:51,033 --> 00:29:53,566 What you would have probably had is a settling 665 00:29:53,666 --> 00:29:55,233 of the attendance on the front end, 666 00:29:55,333 --> 00:29:58,700 to probably somewhere between 700 and 900,000, 667 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,033 and then slowly build back up again as the team got good. 668 00:30:02,133 --> 00:30:04,866 It would have created more realistic expectations 669 00:30:04,966 --> 00:30:07,300 what fan attendance was supposed to be like. 670 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,100 See, when you talk to people in 1965, 671 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,533 and they talk-- I read this in multiple articles-- 672 00:30:13,633 --> 00:30:17,133 they expected the stadium to be packed like it was in '53. 673 00:30:17,233 --> 00:30:20,700 You can't sell the stadium out 12 years in a row. 674 00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:24,466 You can't sell it out 13 seasons in a row. 675 00:30:24,566 --> 00:30:26,600 That's just too difficult. 676 00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:28,733 So the next slide I have, it's a little bit convoluted, 677 00:30:28,833 --> 00:30:32,066 I grant you that, but if I can figure it out I know you guys can, too, 678 00:30:32,166 --> 00:30:34,066 because again, I'm not a graph guy. 679 00:30:34,166 --> 00:30:37,233 And I had my son put this together. (laughter) 680 00:30:37,333 --> 00:30:40,033 See, told you. And they're multi-colored here. 681 00:30:40,133 --> 00:30:44,533 So what I did was, I had him put together a chart 682 00:30:44,633 --> 00:30:47,366 of season attendance, again, overlay it so you can 683 00:30:47,466 --> 00:30:49,300 kind of see where all of them are. 684 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,466 Now this does not have every team that moved. It has most of them. 685 00:30:52,566 --> 00:30:55,800 The one that outperformed, and this blue line right here 686 00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,166 is the one you got used to seeing before. 687 00:30:58,266 --> 00:31:00,933 This was the Milwaukee Braves right here. 688 00:31:01,033 --> 00:31:05,566 This light blue one is the Brooklyn Dodgers to Los Angeles. 689 00:31:05,666 --> 00:31:09,066 Playing in a much bigger stadium at the Coliseum, 690 00:31:09,166 --> 00:31:12,466 and eventually moving into Dodger Stadium. 691 00:31:12,566 --> 00:31:14,833 Certainly their attendance was much higher. 692 00:31:14,933 --> 00:31:17,400 Again we see a little bit of a spike down here. 693 00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:21,400 Ironically the Milwaukee Brewers outdrew them a couple of years. 694 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:24,733 But you see again, even with the Dodgers, what do you see? 695 00:31:24,833 --> 00:31:26,900 A settling effect, right? 696 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,233 Team moved, they went to the World Series in '59, 697 00:31:29,333 --> 00:31:30,866 went to the World Series a couple times 698 00:31:30,966 --> 00:31:32,566 in the 1960s, and what happened? 699 00:31:32,666 --> 00:31:35,633 Little bit of a settling effect as they moved into the 70s. 700 00:31:35,733 --> 00:31:39,033 The green one, San Francisco Giants. 701 00:31:39,133 --> 00:31:41,666 Never matched the initial attendance 702 00:31:41,766 --> 00:31:44,000 in San Francisco that the Braves did. 703 00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:47,066 What do we see? We see a settling. 704 00:31:47,166 --> 00:31:49,600 A slow steady climb, and then what happens? 705 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:51,666 A big drop off. 706 00:31:51,766 --> 00:31:54,233 The Oakland Athletics, when they moved 707 00:31:54,333 --> 00:31:56,733 from Kansas City ultimately, look at this. 708 00:31:56,833 --> 00:31:59,666 Never, ever, ever got close 709 00:31:59,766 --> 00:32:02,100 to where the Braves were in Milwaukee. 710 00:32:04,233 --> 00:32:07,333 And again you can see the drop off here. 711 00:32:07,433 --> 00:32:09,466 I have the Kansas City Athletics, 712 00:32:09,566 --> 00:32:11,366 I talked about that one before. 713 00:32:11,466 --> 00:32:14,300 Nobody would say Baltimore's a bad baseball town. 714 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,000 Nobody would say San Francisco's a bad baseball town. 715 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:18,733 People were saying Milwaukee was. 716 00:32:18,833 --> 00:32:22,300 And the numbers just simply don't bear it out. 717 00:32:23,433 --> 00:32:25,333 So what happened? 718 00:32:25,433 --> 00:32:28,433 Why did we lose our beloved Braves? 719 00:32:28,533 --> 00:32:33,700 Well, in 1962 Lou Perini had taken his corporation 720 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,200 the previous year, made it public. 721 00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,400 He was in construction, had a lot of jobs out on the East Coast, 722 00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,866 and sold it to a group out of Chicago. 723 00:32:41,966 --> 00:32:44,366 Now, the group out of Chicago did not necessarily 724 00:32:44,466 --> 00:32:46,933 buy the team, I believe, to move it. 725 00:32:47,033 --> 00:32:49,066 I think that's a narrative, and I actually spoke 726 00:32:49,166 --> 00:32:50,666 to Bill Bartholomay, he's the second one 727 00:32:50,766 --> 00:32:53,166 in the photograph here, and we spoke 728 00:32:53,266 --> 00:32:54,833 for about two hours on the phone. 729 00:32:54,933 --> 00:32:58,433 He was as cordial as could be, answered the questions. 730 00:32:58,533 --> 00:33:02,333 I have no way to judge the veracity of his statements. 731 00:33:02,433 --> 00:33:04,100 But he made one point to me, 732 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,733 and I've told this story repeatedly, but he said to me, he's like, 733 00:33:06,833 --> 00:33:08,666 "Look, you know, when we first bought the team 734 00:33:08,766 --> 00:33:10,433 "we didn't really plan to move it". 735 00:33:10,533 --> 00:33:13,100 He said, "Look, my wife and I, we had a place 736 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,466 "out in Lake Geneva for me to go see a ball game, 737 00:33:15,566 --> 00:33:18,900 "it was 40 minutes in the car up to our box, and we could see a game." 738 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,000 When the team moved to Atlanta, what did he have to do? 739 00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:22,866 He had to get on a plane, fly to Atlanta, 740 00:33:22,966 --> 00:33:25,666 and he's away from his home, he's away from his office, 741 00:33:25,766 --> 00:33:27,833 he's like, "It wasn't really convenient". 742 00:33:28,833 --> 00:33:31,300 They wanted to be baseball owners. 743 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,933 The problem was, they most likely overpaid for the team. 744 00:33:35,033 --> 00:33:37,300 It was harder to be a baseball owner 745 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,100 than it was to be a U.S. Senator, 746 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,433 because there were only 16 baseball teams 747 00:33:41,533 --> 00:33:43,133 when the Braves first came to Milwaukee. 748 00:33:43,233 --> 00:33:45,833 Now then through expansion obviously there would be a few more, 749 00:33:45,933 --> 00:33:48,800 but it was still ultimately very difficult to be a baseball owner. 750 00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:51,766 So when they got the chance to own the team, 751 00:33:51,866 --> 00:33:54,266 they bought it on the idea that 752 00:33:54,366 --> 00:33:57,466 it was going to be Milwaukee in the 1950s. 753 00:33:57,566 --> 00:33:59,233 That you're going to be drawing somewhere between 754 00:33:59,333 --> 00:34:02,600 1.5 to 2 million, your break-even point is 755 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:05,033 somewhere between a million and 1.5, 756 00:34:05,133 --> 00:34:07,033 and the reality was that first year they owned it 757 00:34:07,133 --> 00:34:09,800 they barely drew more than 700,000. 758 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:11,800 Now, that's shocking. 759 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:13,666 It's a shocking number when you consider 760 00:34:13,766 --> 00:34:16,666 they were up over 2.5 just a couple of years earlier 761 00:34:16,766 --> 00:34:18,400 to be down to 700,000. 762 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,933 Well, it is shocking, but baseball attendance 763 00:34:22,033 --> 00:34:23,933 was down everywhere. 764 00:34:24,033 --> 00:34:26,400 It wasn't just in Milwaukee. 765 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:28,333 See, by the time this ownership group 766 00:34:28,433 --> 00:34:30,933 was buying into the team, professional football 767 00:34:31,033 --> 00:34:35,100 was superseding the fan interest across the nation. 768 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,233 It had an impact directly on newspaper coverage. 769 00:34:38,333 --> 00:34:40,266 So when you look at the sports pages, 770 00:34:40,366 --> 00:34:43,533 more and more coverage went to football than baseball. 771 00:34:43,633 --> 00:34:46,700 Well, in Wisconsin is there anything going on 772 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,066 with professional football that might have a strong, 773 00:34:49,166 --> 00:34:52,166 well let's see, that was the highlight 774 00:34:52,266 --> 00:34:54,333 of the Vince Lombardi years. 775 00:34:54,433 --> 00:34:57,033 So it probably had a stronger impact in Milwaukee as well, 776 00:34:57,133 --> 00:34:59,866 so you're starting a deal with kind of a perfect storm. 777 00:34:59,966 --> 00:35:02,766 You've got owners that are buying a team, 778 00:35:02,866 --> 00:35:05,900 maybe overpaid for it, at a time when fan interest 779 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,200 is dissipating in baseball in general across the country. 780 00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:11,400 Maybe a little bit more in particular in Wisconsin 781 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:13,966 simply because the interest in the Packers. 782 00:35:14,066 --> 00:35:16,266 And now I'll throw another one at you. 783 00:35:16,366 --> 00:35:18,833 At the same time all of this is happening, 784 00:35:18,933 --> 00:35:22,733 the Braves are paying more to use their facility 785 00:35:22,833 --> 00:35:24,966 than any other team in Major League Baseball. 786 00:35:25,066 --> 00:35:27,700 And I think that was the most shocking thing 787 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,600 that I found doing my research, was 788 00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:32,600 the expenditures that the Braves were 789 00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:35,700 obligated to pay to be at Milwaukee County Stadium. 790 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,100 So one of the things that the new Braves ownership 791 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,966 attempted to do to kind of alleviate 792 00:35:40,066 --> 00:35:42,833 some of the financial issues they had, was sell stock. 793 00:35:42,933 --> 00:35:45,066 Now I have a story in the book where I talk 794 00:35:45,166 --> 00:35:47,133 about stock sale, and certainly they were disappointed. 795 00:35:47,233 --> 00:35:49,566 They never sold the amount of stock they were hoping to. 796 00:35:49,666 --> 00:35:52,766 One of the people they brought on to help kind of sell it, 797 00:35:52,866 --> 00:35:55,800 they appointed Vince Lombardi to the board of directors, 798 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,033 kind of the face of the Green Bay Packers, 799 00:35:58,133 --> 00:36:00,333 kind of help this idea of communal ownership, 800 00:36:00,433 --> 00:36:03,800 and it just never really went well. 801 00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:06,366 I don't have an answer for it. 802 00:36:06,466 --> 00:36:08,766 Some people argued, "Well, you know, it was stock, 803 00:36:08,866 --> 00:36:10,566 "it didn't really have any voting, 804 00:36:10,666 --> 00:36:12,733 there was really "nothing you could do with it." 805 00:36:12,833 --> 00:36:14,233 All the decisions would still be made 806 00:36:14,333 --> 00:36:17,100 by the basic owners, they were just basically taking-- 807 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,033 And I'm like, well that's kind of the same thing 808 00:36:19,133 --> 00:36:21,400 the Packers have done twice in my lifetime, 809 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:23,533 where they've sold stock that really is 810 00:36:23,633 --> 00:36:26,100 meaningless but it's a piece of paper. 811 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,033 Is anybody in here a Packer owner? 812 00:36:29,133 --> 00:36:30,466 I am. 813 00:36:33,233 --> 00:36:34,766 We love our ownership. 814 00:36:34,866 --> 00:36:37,266 And then one of the other things certainly 815 00:36:37,366 --> 00:36:39,100 that you find out from the book is that 816 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,366 the relationship with the Milwaukee County Board 817 00:36:41,466 --> 00:36:43,166 was not particularly good. 818 00:36:43,266 --> 00:36:45,733 At a time when maybe you needed really strong leadership 819 00:36:45,833 --> 00:36:49,300 from the Board, it was not as strong as it needed to be. 820 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,966 Certainly for the stadium negotiations 821 00:36:51,066 --> 00:36:54,266 starting in '57, they got very contentious, 822 00:36:54,366 --> 00:36:57,266 and I understand it a little bit from both perspectives. 823 00:36:57,366 --> 00:36:59,966 The Braves need to maximize the revenues they're making. 824 00:37:00,066 --> 00:37:01,533 Anything that they sell in the stadium, again, 825 00:37:01,633 --> 00:37:03,233 as I look around the room I see some people 826 00:37:03,333 --> 00:37:04,800 wearing Brewers things, I see some people 827 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,700 wearing some Braves things, right? 828 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,433 Teams want to make the revenue from that 829 00:37:08,533 --> 00:37:09,900 because it helps them pay for things like 830 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,400 scouts, and spring training facilities 831 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:15,233 and all this other stuff, they want to be able to control it. 832 00:37:15,333 --> 00:37:17,800 Well, anything the Braves want to sell at Milwaukee County Stadium, 833 00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:19,666 they had to get the approval from the County Board. 834 00:37:19,766 --> 00:37:22,633 They wanted to raise basic prices on things like beer 835 00:37:22,733 --> 00:37:25,300 and had to go through the County Board. 836 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,533 It wasn't likely to happen, and so when another stadium deal 837 00:37:28,633 --> 00:37:30,600 comes along that says, "Hey, you can get all the 838 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:33,766 "parking lot revenue, you can control the prices 839 00:37:33,866 --> 00:37:37,666 inside your stadium, we'll give you a long-term lease". 840 00:37:37,766 --> 00:37:40,666 Who wouldn't be interested at least 841 00:37:40,766 --> 00:37:42,933 in listening to that opportunity? 842 00:37:43,033 --> 00:37:45,166 Because one of the things the new ownership group found out 843 00:37:45,266 --> 00:37:47,033 within the first six months they owned the team, 844 00:37:47,133 --> 00:37:48,500 they were going to be butting heads 845 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,433 with the County Board just like Lou Perini had. 846 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:56,300 So, one of the newspaper articles that I have here 847 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,300 is the ongoing reports that the team was going to leave. 848 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,633 And I talk about this in a couple other 849 00:38:01,733 --> 00:38:03,600 different presentations that I've done, 850 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,100 but the Braves and every team in baseball 851 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,766 had been rumored to move for a while. 852 00:38:07,866 --> 00:38:09,566 I mean, the first rumors you really see 853 00:38:09,666 --> 00:38:12,266 the Braves were going to go somewhere was 1955. 854 00:38:12,366 --> 00:38:14,266 We're still in the middle of the Milwaukee Miracle, 855 00:38:14,366 --> 00:38:16,800 and it was just kind of an outlier in an article 856 00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:19,500 where a guy said, "Well, you know, someday you might see these teams move", 857 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,633 and the Braves were one of the teams that were listed. 858 00:38:21,733 --> 00:38:23,366 But every team was rumored to be going somewhere. 859 00:38:23,466 --> 00:38:26,166 I mean, the Yankees were rumored to be going to California. 860 00:38:26,266 --> 00:38:31,166 So I don't put a lot of credence to that until 1963. 861 00:38:31,266 --> 00:38:34,566 At the All Star break in 1963, The Sporting News 862 00:38:34,666 --> 00:38:39,033 reported that the Bartholomay group had a deal in theory 863 00:38:39,133 --> 00:38:41,100 in place to take their team down to Atlanta 864 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,900 when Atlanta's new stadium opened. 865 00:38:44,333 --> 00:38:47,233 Now, is there truth that there was a deal in place? 866 00:38:47,333 --> 00:38:51,066 I don't think they had a signed deal. 867 00:38:51,166 --> 00:38:54,533 I don't even think they were close to a verbal agreement. 868 00:38:54,633 --> 00:38:56,233 But they were certainly moving in that direction, 869 00:38:56,333 --> 00:38:58,133 and the Braves ownership group made it clear that 870 00:38:58,233 --> 00:39:01,200 they were willing to talk to them when their stadium lease was up. 871 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,933 And the ownership group looked at it this way, 872 00:39:04,033 --> 00:39:05,533 their stadium lease they had in Milwaukee County, 873 00:39:05,633 --> 00:39:07,933 they viewed it like a player contract. 874 00:39:08,033 --> 00:39:11,600 You can cut a player, you might still have to pay him, but you can cut a player, 875 00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:13,666 they thought they could do the same thing with their municipal stadium. 876 00:39:13,766 --> 00:39:15,200 They thought at the point that they could 877 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:16,900 go to Atlanta was up to them. 878 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,666 Certainly there will be a different 879 00:39:18,766 --> 00:39:21,333 interpretation from Milwaukee County. 880 00:39:22,433 --> 00:39:25,066 One of my favorite photographs of this era 881 00:39:25,166 --> 00:39:31,200 is we start to put a night cast on our time in Milwaukee. 882 00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:35,366 Twilight has come, rumors are now proven to be true 883 00:39:35,466 --> 00:39:37,266 that the team is ultimately going to leave, 884 00:39:37,366 --> 00:39:39,700 the owners will blame you. 885 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,000 Unfortunately, and I think that's the most 886 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,500 unfair thing thrown at the fans 887 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,766 in the state of Wisconsin, is that they simply disappeared, 888 00:39:49,866 --> 00:39:52,500 and it really wasn't the case. 889 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,600 Certainly they were not there is as strong of numbers 890 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:56,566 as they were before, but as you saw from the other numbers, 891 00:39:56,666 --> 00:39:58,300 they were better than almost every other place, 892 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,266 every other team that moved. 893 00:40:00,366 --> 00:40:04,000 I have a couple photographs here as we get near the end. 894 00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:06,700 This is some of the photographs from the last night 895 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,700 at County Stadium and that the Braves played 896 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,133 as the Milwaukee Braves. 897 00:40:11,233 --> 00:40:14,066 Hall of Famer Eddie Matthews looking over, 898 00:40:14,166 --> 00:40:17,133 the only player to play in Boston, 899 00:40:17,233 --> 00:40:19,066 Milwaukee and Atlanta for the Braves. 900 00:40:19,166 --> 00:40:21,433 And then a bunch of the other players 901 00:40:21,533 --> 00:40:23,200 here standing in the dugout. 902 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:25,800 And I think one of the things that I have heard a lot 903 00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:28,666 from fans that are older than I am, they would say, 904 00:40:28,766 --> 00:40:30,433 "Well, you know, the problem was we didn't really 905 00:40:30,533 --> 00:40:32,466 "know the guy, all the guys we liked were gone. 906 00:40:32,566 --> 00:40:34,733 "The players they got in return never really developed". 907 00:40:34,833 --> 00:40:37,800 And certainly that was the case the Braves 908 00:40:37,900 --> 00:40:41,633 would contend periodically, but they just never could 909 00:40:41,733 --> 00:40:44,866 consistently put together a winning product. 910 00:40:44,966 --> 00:40:46,766 While they finished with a winning record 911 00:40:46,866 --> 00:40:48,700 every year they were in Milwaukee, 912 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,833 they just didn't get close to that first tier 913 00:40:51,933 --> 00:40:54,400 after 1959, they just really kind of settled 914 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,233 into the bottom half of the National League. 915 00:40:58,266 --> 00:41:02,633 "Taps" at the final game, again look at the sparse crowds. 916 00:41:02,733 --> 00:41:05,400 But look at, again I'll point out the expansion. 917 00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:08,300 You can see how far out now the bleacher sections go. 918 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,166 Certainly the stadium footprint looks dramatically different 919 00:41:11,266 --> 00:41:17,266 by 1965 than it had in '53 when the team first came. 920 00:41:18,266 --> 00:41:20,566 One of the saddest photographs, 921 00:41:20,666 --> 00:41:22,333 this one's been in a lot of different books, 922 00:41:22,433 --> 00:41:23,833 but "See you next year Braves", and unfortunately 923 00:41:23,933 --> 00:41:26,666 Milwaukee would not see the Braves again until 1970 924 00:41:26,766 --> 00:41:28,733 when they came up to play an exhibition game. 925 00:41:28,833 --> 00:41:31,466 And then fortunately with the Brewers going in the National League, 926 00:41:31,566 --> 00:41:33,166 now the Braves come back on a regular basis. 927 00:41:33,266 --> 00:41:36,566 So my mother who grew up a diehard Braves fan. 928 00:41:36,666 --> 00:41:39,766 I took her to the first Braves game back 929 00:41:39,866 --> 00:41:42,266 at Milwaukee County Stadium, and I talk about the story 930 00:41:42,366 --> 00:41:44,166 a little bit in the beginning of the book. 931 00:41:44,266 --> 00:41:47,300 Unfortunately, Greg Maddux was just lights out that day. 932 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,233 The Brewers did not really look good against him 933 00:41:49,333 --> 00:41:53,333 but my mom stood and she booed the Braves, 934 00:41:53,433 --> 00:41:56,033 just to get it out of her system. (laughter) 935 00:41:56,133 --> 00:41:59,433 I did live up to that promise I made her as a young lad. 936 00:41:59,533 --> 00:42:02,433 And then, one more graph, you knew it was coming, right? 937 00:42:02,533 --> 00:42:05,933 All right, so here is a retention graph. 938 00:42:06,033 --> 00:42:08,400 Now this one I love for a couple of different reasons. 939 00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:10,966 So, the way this works is, this is the first year, 940 00:42:11,066 --> 00:42:13,866 so this is 100% of your attendance the first year you're in there. 941 00:42:13,966 --> 00:42:16,333 So your number may vary from city to city 942 00:42:16,433 --> 00:42:19,000 but that's 100%, right? 943 00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:22,233 So as we break the numbers down, look what happens. 944 00:42:22,333 --> 00:42:27,033 The Milwaukee Braves went up over their 100% mark 945 00:42:27,133 --> 00:42:31,466 all the way out to year six, going into year seven, 946 00:42:31,566 --> 00:42:33,533 when it went below where they had been in '53, 947 00:42:33,633 --> 00:42:36,066 and progressively slid down. 948 00:42:36,166 --> 00:42:38,200 In Atlanta, look at this. 949 00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:40,300 They dropped off right away. 950 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,566 They never got, we use 13 years or 13 baseball seasons, 951 00:42:43,666 --> 00:42:46,100 for all the graphs I showed you was 13 seasons 952 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,866 to compare apples to apples, 953 00:42:47,966 --> 00:42:49,533 the Braves experience versus everybody else. 954 00:42:49,633 --> 00:42:53,100 Look at this. In Atlanta, they never got close to 100% 955 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,400 of where they had been in '66 when the team first played there. 956 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:58,200 Look at again, the Milwaukee Brewers. 957 00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:00,066 They dropped off. 958 00:43:00,166 --> 00:43:03,466 The team was not very good, they get above 100%. 959 00:43:03,566 --> 00:43:06,633 And they get going, and they're above that benchmark, 960 00:43:06,733 --> 00:43:08,300 until you get to right here, and again, 961 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,333 this was the strike in 1981 and they came out of it in '82, 962 00:43:11,433 --> 00:43:13,133 of course go to the World Series. 963 00:43:13,233 --> 00:43:15,966 They set the record initially at County Stadium in '83, 964 00:43:16,066 --> 00:43:17,700 then attendance kind of settled in. 965 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,166 Certainly it's much higher now. 966 00:43:19,266 --> 00:43:21,333 I was at the Braves game over the weekend, 967 00:43:21,433 --> 00:43:24,133 and I think on their final game, the attendance so far 968 00:43:24,233 --> 00:43:26,766 for the year is up over 1.6 million already, 969 00:43:26,866 --> 00:43:28,933 and we're only halfway through the year. 970 00:43:29,033 --> 00:43:36,033 So again, Lou Perini, Boston, 1952, they drew 280,000. 971 00:43:36,133 --> 00:43:38,766 In 2018 in Milwaukee we're at 1.6 million 972 00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:41,100 and we're just barely over halfway through the season. 973 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,500 So that's the difference that attendance will do. 974 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,333 Now, one last thing. 975 00:43:46,533 --> 00:43:48,833 Finances have everything to do with this. 976 00:43:48,933 --> 00:43:51,633 The local business community did what they could 977 00:43:51,733 --> 00:43:53,333 to support the team while they were here. 978 00:43:53,433 --> 00:43:55,333 They simply could not match up with the dollars 979 00:43:55,433 --> 00:43:57,366 that Coca-Cola could bring to the table. 980 00:43:57,466 --> 00:44:01,300 It's one of the reasons ultimately why the team would go. 981 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,166 I will say this. 982 00:44:03,266 --> 00:44:06,600 If the decision to move, if that would have been 983 00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:08,233 10 years earlier or 10 years later, 984 00:44:08,333 --> 00:44:10,533 so if they would have looked to take them, 985 00:44:10,633 --> 00:44:13,566 say in 19, you know if the Braves would have come even earlier, 986 00:44:13,666 --> 00:44:16,800 I don't know if the Braves would have ever left. 987 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:18,766 And certainly 10 years later that wouldn't have happened. 988 00:44:18,866 --> 00:44:22,600 Had they been able to lock the Braves into a long- term deal in 1957, 989 00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:24,833 sign them to a 10-year lease, 990 00:44:24,933 --> 00:44:27,366 meant that they were locked through the 1967, 991 00:44:27,466 --> 00:44:29,533 Atlanta would have gone to look for somebody else. 992 00:44:29,633 --> 00:44:32,433 The two teams they wanted was either the Cleveland Indians or the Milwaukee Braves, 993 00:44:32,533 --> 00:44:35,300 were the only two teams that had leases coming up. 994 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,700 If Milwaukee County would have had the foresight 995 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,066 to get a long-term lease in place, 996 00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:43,500 the Braves might still be here. 997 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,600 That is my story on the Milwaukee Braves and their fan base. 998 00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,400 Thank you very much for coming today. 999 00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:53,500 (applause)