- Welcome to this theater,
the first theater panel,
the only theater panel at
Cap Times Idea Fest 2019.
I am your host,
Lindsay Christians,
I have been writing
about the arts
for theCap Times since 2008,
which is also the year I
graduated from this institution
with a master's in
theater research,
so my theater training
comes from here.
You know, go Badgers!
So, today, we're gonna be
talking about what happens
when predominately white,
non-disabled companies
diversify the stories they tell
and the artists
that they work with.
And I'm gonna read you just a
few bios of my panelists
who are wonderful, and I'm
so glad that you're all here,
in whatever way you can be.
Marti Gobel, right
here on the phone,
is an actor, director,
and teaching artist
based in Milwaukee.
She was a resident
teaching artist
with Renaissance Theaterworks,
and has performed with
Milwaukee Repertory Theater,
Next Act Theatre,
Milwaukee Chamber Theatre,
and many others.
In Madison, she
directedExit Strategy
for Forward Theater.
She starred in Forward's
Skeleton Crew last season
and she performed in
No Child with Theatre LILA
a few years ago, you saw that.
She's a proud member of The
Actors' Equity Association
and the Screen Actors Guild,
American Federation of
Television and Radio Artists.
Loryn Jonelis, over here,
is a film and stage actor
and choreographer
in the Madison area.
He has appeared on stage
as transgender characters
in StageQ'sStandards of
Care and cisgender characters
as inSweet William
at Broom Street Theater
andThe Mineola Twins
with Kathie Rasmussen
Women's Theatre.
He likes sharks, the
color green, and teaching.
[all laughing]
Lori Kido Lopez is an
associate professor
of media and cultural studies
at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison,
where she studies race and
representation in the media.
She studies how women, people
of color, and queer communities
use media in the fight
for social justice.
In 2014, Lori founded The
Race and Media Conference.
She's the author ofAsian
American Media Activism:
Fighting for Cultural
Citizenship and co-editor
ofThe Routledge Companion
to Asian American Media .
Welcome, Lori.
- Thanks.
- Kathleen Tissot
here, on my right,
has been involved
on and off stage
with various Madison
theater companies
for the past 20 plus years.
For 15 of those years, she
was the speech pathologist
and drama advisor/play
director at Oregon High School.
There, she developed a
social skills program
for students on
the autism spectrum
and strive for inclusivity
in the theater drama program.
She recently directed
The Curious Incident of
the Dog in the Night-Time
for Strollers Theatre, starring
a former student of hers
who is on the autism spectrum.
Welcome, Kathleen.
- Thanks.
- So I wanna start by framing
this discussion a little bit.
We talk about whose stories
get told, who tells them,
who is watching and listening,
and within that context,
diversity can mean a
lot of different things.
Diversity and inclusion
are not the same,
just like equality and
equity are not the same.
So the way I think of it is that
diversity is a movie
likeThe Help ,
which has this white
savior narrative,
and inclusion is maybe
a film likeMoonlight ,
where we have a
black gay playwright
telling this
coming-of-age story.
To make a theater connection,
diversity isMiss Saigon
and inclusion is Qui
Nguyen'sVietgone .
So, to kinda bring it back
to theater a little bit.
My first question is for Marti.
Hi, Marti, can you still hear?
- I am still here.
- Awesome.
I was hoping that actually
that you could start
the conversation
because you do speak about
this pretty frequently,
about the need for more
diverse representation onstage,
and you've worked so
extensively here in Wisconsin.
How do you distinguish between
diversity and inclusion
in regional theater companies?
- Marti: Okay, let me say that
of course we are
working very, very,
I think, rigorously
to increase diversity
as far as the
stages in Wisconsin,
but we have not reached
a point of inclusion
in my personal opinion.
And what I mean by that is
that we have diverse stories
that are being told,
we have directors that are
telling diverse stories
and helping to aid in that,
we certainly have a
diverse talent pool.
But what we don't
have is inclusion
in those that are in
positions of power
or those that are directing
plays that are outside those
that include diverse
cast and story.
And so, that's an issue that
I think we need to look at.
- Yeah, I think I remember
hearing it in the context
of like when sort of a
classical theater company
hires an African-American
director to direct something
that's not an August Wilson
play, that's like a Shakespeare.
- Yes.
- Yeah.
- Marti: Shakespeare
is more universal
and I know that they've
done, at the APT,
they've done
Our Country's Good ,
but what you're still looking at
is people that are including
casts of folks of color.
Not necessarily, we haven't
seen a person of color
direct, say,Buried Child .
- Ah, the Sam Shepard play.
- Marti: Or Sam Shepard
or Tennessee Williams,
this is the kind of thing
that I'm talking about.
- Got it, okay.
Thank you.
Loryn, you've played
sort of both cisgender
and transgender
characters on stage,
and I wonder for you, what
are the challenges and rewards
of playing a character
who may be negotiating
their gender identity
as a character?
- Last, I mean...
When I first played a
transgender character,
I did not identify as trans,
and so, that allowed me
to explore that in myself
and kind of use that to grow.
Playing a cisgender character,
that's just kind of,
I feel like it's what you
want as a trans actor,
to just be able to
play a character,
it doesn't matter
if they're male,
female, transgender or not.
I mean, it doesn't matter,
you just wanna
play the character.
And to play those, I
think that's been the...
I guess, the dream, we'll say.
'Cause a lot of the times,
you're pegged as just
playing a trans character.
I think I feel like I
fit right into like,
I always play teenage boys.
I'm still like,
between a lot of phases
because I just
started testosterone,
I can't really grow
facial hair yet.
Granted, I may never.
So, that's another
issue with how you cast
based on appearance,
and I think that has
been the challenge
with that in general.
- When you think about what
roles you're going out for,
if you were gonna
be handing your,
I keep thinking CV,
that's the wrong word.
But you know, same thing.
[laughing]
I mean, what you wanna
use pronouns on it?
- At this point, yes, I
still get misgendered,
so I would wanna use pronouns.
But once that stops being
a thing, then I don't care.
For me, at least.
And that is also something
that changes person to person,
whether you wanna use
the pronouns or not.
- Nice, thank you.
Lori, I wanted to talk with you
about what are some
of the pitfalls,
that when predominately
white organizations
will reach out to
communities of color
to wanna involve them.
What are some of the
things that can go wrong
and maybe go right
in those situations?
- Yeah, I have a couple
of suggestions about that,
and since I'm more
of a community member
than a theater professional, I
can speak to that experience.
So I think that it's a
great idea to reach out
to community members if
you're putting on a play
that you think will
maybe be controversial
or something that you want
to bring more voices in on.
And there's some
good ways to do that
and some less good
ways to do that.
I would say the first
thing to think about
is that if you are inviting
community members in
to do like a talk
back or a program,
then you should actually be open
to listening to what
they have to say.
So, this is not the
kind of situation
where you should think
about being controlling
or limiting what
they're gonna say,
because, you know, the reality
is you're bringing them in
to do some critical work
or to challenge
what's been going on.
If there wasn't a problem,
you probably wouldn't have
invited them in the first place.
So, actually being
open to listening
to what they have to say
and respecting what
people have to say,
if you do that work of
inviting them into your space.
I also think that, you
know, this happens a lot
when a theater group
is putting on something
that they think that people
might be upset about,
but that a lot of groundwork
could happen proactively
before that happens.
So instead of waiting
until you are afraid
that somebody from the
community might be upset,
actually proactively
building relationships
in minority communities,
thinking about who is not
already not being represented,
or whose voices
are being left out,
thinking about how
that makes them feel
and how you can reach out
and make sure they are
part of your community.
And that you know
who these people are
and that you have meaningful
connections with them
before a crisis comes up,
and then all the sudden,
you're turning to them
to solve a problem for you.
That's not the best
relationship to have,
if that's at all possible.
And then I think it's also
just important to remember
that these people that
you are calling in
to do this kind of work, it
can be really hard labor.
It's difficult intellectual
labor and emotional labor.
People of color and people
of other minority backgrounds
spend their entire lives being
expected to educate people
about their experiences
and their struggles
and all the things that
they should know about them.
And that's really difficult work
that is often uncompensated.
So, just recognizing
that a lot of people
might not be interested in
doing that kind of labor for you
and to keep trying.
There are lots of people who
are very eager and willing
to be ambassadors and educators
and do that kind of work.
So, it's just about knowing
that you may encounter
that kind of response,
but to not let
that make you feel
like you should give
up on the enterprise.
And then also to think
about how white people
and people of other
majority identities
and privileged identities,
should also be always working
to educate themselves,
also proactively.
And not just kind of
sitting back and waiting
for someone to come
and educate you,
but to do that work
of educating yourself
and trying to put yourself
in the best position
to be more open and receptive
to whatever it is that
you will continue learning
once you're actually engaging
with people of color.
- Thank you.
- Yeah.
- Kathleen, my question for
you is aboutCurious Incident
and working with the young
performer that you did,
I wonder if you could just
frame that a little bit
and talk about why that
project was important to you?
-Curious Incident
was important to me
on many, many levels.
My career has been
in speech pathology,
which deals frequently with kids
with social skills on
the autism spectrum,
and that goes way back.
My nine-year-old
grandson has autism.
I have some of...
The people that...
The best people I've
worked with have autism.
So, it had a lot of things.
And the thing about the
play that attracted me,
was that it has a
very hopeful ending.
He says, "I did this and this
and this and this and this.
"That means I can
do anything, right?"
And she doesn't
really answer him,
but you get the feeling
like he really believes
he can do anything,
which is the coolest thing
that you can possibly
hope for somebody.
Okay, that's one reason.
And the second one
was I knew early on,
once I knew I was
gonna direct it,
that I wanted to,
if at all possible,
I wanted to have somebody
on the autism spectrum.
I know a lot of people who
have that neurodifference,
but Peyton was a
former student of mine.
He was in the last play
that I directed at Oregon,
and he's a very
talented young man
with a great
interest in theater.
He wanted to go to college
and major in theater.
So, when this came up,
I contacted him and a couple
other people that I knew
and I auditioned them,
way, way ahead of time.
And Peyton was the choice.
If Peyton had not
been in the picture,
and I just auditioned
these other couple
people that I had,
I think I might have
gone a different route,
which is, you know, maybe...
I would have used it more
as a consulting
and learning thing.
But it was important for
me to try to find somebody,
a first choice.
- Lindsay: Ah, I see.
- And Peyton was just the
right person for that role,
he really was, so.
- Lindsay: It took
him a little longer
to get ready for it, right?
Like he took extra
time to prepare?
- Actually, I thought it
might, because I auditioned him
probably nine months
before anybody else.
- Lindsay: Oh, wow.
- Thinking that way he
could learn the role,
like could do all this stuff,
he didn't even look at the
script until after it was cast.
[laughing]
And I was like "Peyton!"
He has a lot of--
He has a really good ability
to learn things quickly,
he's the first one off book,
he's the first one all that,
but I wanted to make
sure that he knew
and had time to
adjust if he needed.
He's very self-aware,
and when you cast somebody
in a role like that,
I think it's very
helpful to have someone
who is able to follow
direction and be self-aware
and not everybody is,
everybody's different.
And you have to...
Everybody is a person,
and everyone's got a
different background
and abilities and all that.
And when you're putting
a show together,
you do need to have
certain things,
like can the person
follow directions?
Can the person
have self-awareness
to be able to introspective
and see how they're different
from this character?
And Peyton is very definitely
different from the character,
but he didn't need the
time after all, he just...
- That's so great.
- He's awesome.
- So, Marti, I have
a question for you.
- Marti: I would
love to have it.
[all laughing]
- What are the barriers to
regional theaters producing
more stories that are by,
about, and for people of color
and maybe what are some of the
techniques that have worked?
- Marti: I think the
major barrier for me
is I'm kind of
wading through this,
both as a director
and as an actor,
is that in order to
competently show stories
that are including
people of color,
they need to be able
to have cut their teeth
on other lead roles.
So that you can't just
have them come out
and play a lead role
for the first time
after doing years and years
and years of supporting roles
in shows that aren't
necessarily designed
to represent people
of color on stage.
So then it begins
to be a problem
when it dominoes to the
point where you have actors
that haven't been given the
opportunity to take lead.
And so, I think the
answer to that is twofold,
that we need to be including
also in Shakespeare,
actors that are
given lead roles,
so that when they
step into roles
that require them to hold
a role in a leading way,
that they are properly
trained and prepared
and have the muscles
in order to do that.
We need more people
of color in power,
so that they're
selecting these shows,
so that they're
hiring directors,
so that they're making
sure that rooms,
which we have a serious
problem with this in Wisconsin,
are not just echo chambers.
It's not enough to
just voice your support
for other communities,
it's important to also
be involved in them.
And that, getting back to
your question about inclusion.
So, right now, Wisconsin,
at the upper levels
concerning theater,
is pretty much operating
in an echo chamber,
to me, in my opinion.
So I think we need to
get outta that chamber.
- Yeah, I'm nodding, you can't
see me nod but thank you.
I wonder if there are
examples of companies
that you think are doing
this work in productive
and helpful ways that
maybe could offer,
whether they're in
Wisconsin or not.
- Marti: No.
- All right.
[laughing]
- Marti: Yeah, I mean,
and I work with all
of these companies
and many of them are
my dear, dear friends,
and I see all this.
But if you can name for me one
theater company in Wisconsin
that has a person of color in
administration, introduction,
and in artistic decision-making,
then, please, correct me.
- Yeah, I can't.
Thank you.
Lori, I actually wanted to
ask you a little bit about
like how power differentials
play a role in programming,
'cause I think that
it has a nice overlap
to your work with media
and how we see
representation in media.
And I wonder if you can
speak maybe briefly to
how implicit bias
can function in that?
- Yeah, absolutely.
So when we talk
about implicit bias,
we mean the distinction
between explicit bias,
so racism where someone
actually believes
that people of color are
inferior to white people
or have some sort
of racial hatred,
that would be explicit bias.
But implicit bias
is just what we get
from living in this world
where we consume
the media that we do
and go through the education
system that we have
and are exposed to kind
of theater that we have.
And all those things do give
us racialized ways of thinking,
and we may believe
that we are not racist,
and we may believe that we
are trying to act in a way
that promotes racial equality,
but we still have
these implicit biases,
and those show up in
much more subtle ways.
So it impacts decisions like
what plays people
choose to put on,
where if you look at two plays
and one's written
by a person of color
and one was written
by a white person,
you might not say, "Oh, well,
the one by the person of color
"is bad because it's written
by a person of color."
But I might be like,
"Oh, I don't know.
"I don't like it as much,
like I feel like it's
just not quite there yet."
And the same thing
can happen for casting
when you're comparing people
of different backgrounds,
and it's just like a
slight hint of like,
"Well, they seem
less experienced,
"I may give them like a little
bit less benefit of the doubt,
"and I'm not exactly sure
how they'll handle this."
And then, I also think
it goes on the other side
to how audiences are viewing
productions and art and media
where they also have
like a little bit,
like a slight bit of suspicion
or a slight bit of dislike,
and it's just kind
of nudging them
a little bit in a negative way.
And that is an extra obstacle
that we have to overcome,
and it's even harder to overcome
because we're not aware of it,
and because it's not
as obvious and overt,
but those little nudges still
add up to slow down progress.
- Thank you.
Loryn, I was curious,
what kinds of,
kind of in the same vein,
like what kind of stories
you see being told
about trans characters,
and what kind of stories
you'd like to see more of?
- I don't see a
whole lot of stories
about transgender characters.
I mean, obviously like
Orange is the New Black ,
yes, there was a
very good storyline
about a transgender woman.
And honestly, that's
often that you see stories
about transgender women, not
necessarily transgender men.
And there was an article,
and I wish I had like, the
citations for that article
that I read, 'cause I've
referenced it several times
and just can't remember
where I found it.
It talked about
being raised male,
you're given all
of those privileges
that males have in our society.
You're more likely to
speak and step forward,
whereas if you
are raised female,
like a transgender
male would be,
you still kinda hang back.
And being raised female,
you're taught to be quieter,
more reserved, so I wonder
if that plays into the fact
that you see more stories
about transgender women
than you do about
transgender men.
And the few I have seen
end in their murder,
they're sexually assaulted
all over TV likeSVU .
I loveLaw & Order: SVU ,
but it is not great for
transgender storylines.
It kinda plays into somebody
was tricked into a date
with a man and now
they think they're gay
so they're gonna
kill the person.
It's like, that's
really not how it works,
and the TV show
doesn't do a great job
of talking about that either.
But storylines I would
like to see are just...
I work in a restaurant,
that's where I make my money.
Why isn't there just a
transgender character
who's a bartender?
Or a host?
Or the flight attendant?
Just normalize being
transgender, 'cause it's normal.
Yes, I get a shot every week,
some days I wear a
binder, some days I don't.
Let's talk about that,
let's just show that
in somebody's life.
And I got an audition casting
notice forThe L Word reboot,
and it was specifically said
they wanted a trans male
who was well into
their transition.
I don't know what exactly
they wanted by that,
but you can't really, I mean,
well into your transition?
I feel like I am well
into my transition.
I've identified as a trans
male for three, four years,
I haven't been medically
transitioning for that long,
so I feel like
that's something that
needs to be taken out of things
like that, because I am trans,
and it doesn't matter how
long I've identified this,
I'm well into my transition.
And so, again, I think
just seeing people
who haven't had top surgery, who
maybe even aren't on hormones
but they're identifying
how they identify.
That kinda takes
that out of question,
and really, it gives
you a better idea
of who the trans community is.
- It seems to me like
you're talking about
moving the conversation
from like being all about
like identity and
how you identify,
to making it part of
character development
with other larger stories.
- Sure.
- Yeah.
- Put it everywhere, really.
I mean, I honestly have
never had a question.
One of the things in
the trans community
you don't wanna be asked,
there are certain questions.
I've never been asked those,
because I think everybody is
so scared to ask questions.
Yeah, you may say
something that--
the question may be
somewhat offensive,
but I'm not gonna
snap at you about it,
I'm gonna be like, "Okay,
so, I'm gonna answer this.
"But probably phrase it
differently next time
"if you need to
ask somebody else."
No, it is not my job to educate,
but I'm always happy to educate.
I want people to
accept other people,
and if me telling my story
of being a trans man,
if that helps somebody
understand their granddaughter
or grandson or their best
friend, that means more to me
than keeping certain
parts of myself private.
So, I'd like to see, yeah,
character development
with just people being people.
- That sounds like some
significant emotional labor.
So, just wanna say
thank you for that.
Kathleen, I was wondering if
you could talk a little bit
about your work with students
and how you empower
particular students
who may be neuroatypical,
or be working with
other intellectual
or other kinds of disabilities?
How do you empower them
through theater,
and potentially what our
community and regional theaters
could learn from that?
- Well, first thing
is people are people,
and they need to be
treated as a person,
not as their disability
or their presentation.
Like Loryn was just alluding
to, just being people.
And early on, when I started
working at the high school,
I took on the drama club and
I was doing special ed stuff,
and I did this play called
The Boys Next Door .
And it was important
to me to do that play
because at the time, the
special ed department
was kind of like relegated
to this little thing.
So I thought it was an
important story to tell
about this group of men
who lived in a group home.
And when I auditioned the play,
I didn't know a lot
about who was available.
And there was one young man
who was learning disabled,
but that was the only one who
auditioned who was like that.
So I decided, "Well, this
cast needs to know people
"who have what they're
trying to portray,"
so I arranged a scrimmage
with the Special
Olympics basketball team.
And we developed relationship
with the Special Olympians,
and that, just that, even if
we hadn't performed, was huge.
And it was probably one of
the better attended plays
that ever happened for
the ones that I directed.
So it was inclusion of
getting to know people
that are different than you
and seeing that you know what?
It's not a caricature,
you're not up there
acting like, "Oh."
You know, something
wrong, that's not real,
and it brings an
authenticity to it,
so that was early on.
And then as time
went on, there was...
I had students that,
whatever they wanted to
audition for, whatever part,
that was fine.
So I had people
auditioning for parts,
like trans men and trans women.
They were, they were--
And they were just part of
it, they were just people.
And then later
on, when I started
the social skills class
at the high school,
Peyton was a early student,
not in social skills,
but he was an early
student of mine in speech,
and he needed social
skills training.
And he was so special, I
decided, "You know what?
"You'd be better
off in drama club."
And so, he was dismissed
from special ed services
and put in drama club,
and he blossomed.
He was given the opportunity,
he was treated like a person,
he was accepted by the group.
I always told the kids,
"The drama kids are the
nice kids in school.
"If you're not nice,
you don't stay."
And it was true, the entire
time I was there, that was true.
And so, you treat
people as people,
and you don't give them like...
It's like, "Oh, I need someone
in my cast who's disabled,
how can I fit them in?"
No, if they have an interest
and they are good for the part,
hey, why not?
And so, that was
just the atmosphere.
- It's interesting
that you mentioned that
when you first cast Peyton
inCurious Incident ,
you didn't say like,
"If I can't find someone
"who's neuroatypical
to play this character,
"I won't do the play."
And that makes me think about...
To me, there are these
kind of separate,
almost separate buckets of like
how we cast and the stories,
and how we perform the stories,
because if we say we
can only be writing
or performing stories that are
true to our own experience,
that limits us in ways
that makes me a little sad.
But at the same time, there is
a huge issue of who gets cast
and who gets work.
And as Marti was saying
before, who is in power?
Who's in administration?
And so,--
- Marti: Amen.
[all laughing]
- But I wonder, we sort of
often talk about this idea of,
you'll hear actors say,
"I should be able to
play anything," right?
"Because my job as an
actor is to be creative,
"is to imagine myself
as someone who I'm not."
But if they're aligned for you,
and I guess that's sort
of a question for anybody,
but I wonder like Marti, is
there a line for you
in terms of--
- Marti: Absolutely,
there's a line,
and I'm way more
conservative on this issue
than people actually calculate.
There is a difference
between colorblind casting
and nontraditional casting.
You cannot blindly do anything;
someone will get hurt.
You just can't.
And this is a
situation where, again,
if we're not operating
in an echo chamber,
then you have somebody that
will say, "Wait a minute,
"you can't do that."
Instead of convincing yourself
that something is
appropriate or passable.
So, to begin with
the definition,
colorblind casting is,
I think, just wildly going
out there and casting whoever
and however people
wanna do things.
I, for instance, am not
interested, and I'm surprised...
I usually offend somebody
in this amount of time,
so good Lord, here we go.
If I'm not interested in
seeing a Hispanic father
married to an Asian woman
with their black child,
that is not...
[laughing wryly]
Unless it's set up to
be that this is a family
that was blended in
some creative ways.
I have a family that has
come together in that way.
But if you're trying to tell me
that this family
is how it started
and was come together
in a traditional way,
then I'm immediately
out of the story.
- Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
- Marti: If you wanna
take people and put,
take a, say, a
Tennessee Williams play,
who happens to be one of
my favorite playwrights,
and you wanna cast that with
an all African-American cast,
for the most part, that
is absolutely possible,
without changing the language.
But then you have to track
it all the way through.
And that's the difference
between colorblind casting
and nontraditional casts.
If you have someone that is
pretending to be another race,
fully and totally,
it becomes offensive.
It becomes offensive
to a lot of people.
If you have someone
that is being an actor,
that is doing a mimic
or heightened mimicry
of another person for
the betterment of a play,
sayNo Child..., that's
a different thing.
I never at one point in time
tried to let anybody think
that I was anything
but a black woman,
who was voicing for Latinx
or who was voicing
for Asian people.
When you have somebody
that steps into a role
and pretends to be another
race, it's highly offensive.
We've had a huge discussion
on this recently,
and I thought it was
fascinating that no one...
[scoffing]
No one wanted
to address the fact
that A, it was a bad
decision to begin with,
and B, there are
particular plays
that need to be
put on the shelf.
There are literally
thousands of plays.
I am not interested in
seeingLend Me a Tenor .
And there were a lot of people
that voiced their opinions on
what went on
with the particular situation
that happened,
not only here, but in Missouri.
But this is one of those
when you're even referenced,
in regards to the
use of the word,
particular words that
we don't like to hear.
Some people just
don't get a vote.
And if you're Caucasian
and you're watching a play
and you're like, "I
think it's a good idea,
"I think it was fine."
Guess what?
You're not the one
that's offended.
You're immediately
have a less stake
in what's being represented
on stage than I do.
On this particular...
In this particular area.
So to go back to it, no,
colorblind casting
is not appropriate.
Nontraditional
casting, when it works
and does not change the
intent of the playwright,
I'm absolutely for.
But I'm definitely more
conservative on that
than people may calculate.
- Do you think that colorblind
casting is less prevalent now
than it used it be?
Like, say, in the
'90s when it was like
we're all the same under
the skin kind of thing?
The multiracial or
the yeah, of the '90s.
Do you see it happening less?
- Marti: I see it happening
in a more low-key way.
Some that you may have
somebody who looks Latinx,
but is not, so that it passes.
Or you may have somebody
that is Dominican,
but can play a black person.
Which, we have the same origins,
but we don't have the
same cultural background.
So, in that way,
that it happens.
And it happens for the
Caucasian society too.
I mean, it's also...
[laughing wryly]
It gets tricky when
you have somebody
learning a Russian accent
and pretending to be Russian
when they're not Russian.
And you don't have somebody
at the dramaturgical level
that's helping them out.
But we're not
talking about that,
I'm here to talk
about brown skin.
[audience laughing]
So, let me bring myself back.
[all laughing]
So, I think it is happening,
it's just people are
learning the rules.
So, you know, they're
finding ways around it.
Just like the laws could change,
that doesn't mean
people are changing
as quickly as we would like.
- Yeah, no, that feels true.
Thank you.
- Marti: Yep.
- You're all teachers
here on this panel,
and I wonder if any of
you would like to speak
to anything you've
seen from students
that makes you hopeful for a
more inclusive theater future?
- Marti: Ooh, me!
I teach at UWM and at Marquette,
and I think it's a
fascinating thing,
but it's also simultaneously
frustrating for me,
which is what
they're trying to do
with gender identification.
And the language
that's being developed.
And also it's gonna spill over
into how we deal with
people of different races.
Which is they're
trying to remove it.
I know for a fact that we won't
see that in this lifetime,
it'll take several
generations to happen,
but they're not only trying
to, and I see them doing it.
They're not only trying to
say that it should be a wash,
but they're also trying to
say that it shouldn't matter.
And I love, I love
the tide of this.
So that I can still, at
some point, maybe 152,
158 years down the line,
walk in and someone go,
"Oh, that's a black woman,"
but it doesn't mean anything
other than that's a black woman.
And they are moving and
taking great strides,
the younger generation,
on changing the wiring
of how we look and
categorize ourselves.
- Cool, thank you.
- Marti: Yep.
[laughing]
- Lindsay: Any other
thoughts on that?
Things you've seen
from students?
People that you've taught?
- I was thinking
about this in relation
to the conversation
you were just having
about can anyone play any role?
Because this is the kind
of conversation I do have
with my students all the time.
And you know, we may have
had our multicultural moment
in the '90s, but then
we also have post-racism
and post-racial discourse
to deal with now,
which is like the
post-Obama idea
that like we've conquered racism
and race doesn't matter anymore.
Which I think is also
kind of dying away,
because we realize
now more than ever
that racism is alive and well.
But you know, my students
are always really excited
to talk about these ideas
and to think through
the differences
between colorblindness
and then doing something
that's actually
actively anti-racist.
And how if we do nothing
and we pretend like
race doesn't matter,
then we allow the
status quo to continue,
and that is a practice
of upholding racism.
So, I have students who
are really interested
in thinking about, and I
was also thinking about
what you were saying
about looking at shows
likeThe L Word , which
I'm in a class right now
and we're gonna watch
The L Word later.
- Loryn: I'm so sorry.
[all laughing]
- They talk about
representations in it,
and my whole goal
with my classes
is to give students these
sharper vocabularies
for describing and
analyzing what's going on.
So, they might watch
these shows on their own
and feel uncomfortable
and feel like this is mildly
offensive in some way.
But I wanna give
them the actual tools
for saying what's happening.
And that way when
they leave my class,
they can be more specific
in describing what they see,
but also bring that
into their communities
and talk to their friends
and their family members.
They're often very excited
to talk to their family
about what they've been watching
and how they feel about it.
And describing the history
that got us to where we were,
and then why these images were
made in the way that they are,
and why change is so
difficult in media industries
because of these
power differentials.
And so, I just
get really excited
when I get to talk to
my students about this,
and I see them developing
that vocabulary
and then bringing it
with them into the world.
- Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
- When we did
Curious Incident ,
we brought in Peyton's mom,
we brought in a respite worker
for someone with autism,
we brought in my
son and his wife
to talk about their
experiences as parents
of kids with autism.
And we learned about differences
and how certain things
might be an issue,
or maybe not be an issue.
And then we asked
Peyton directly,
"So, what kinds of
things do you need
"to make us have you
participate in this well?"
And he's very open with it.
Everyone that was a speaker
in that information piece
was wonderful and very open.
And it really enhanced the
ability of the characters to...
How would the neighbor
react in this situation?
How would the mom and dad
feel in this situation?
And just the education on
what people are really like,
instead of just guessing.
I think that is acceptance,
that helps acceptance so much.
I think if we educate kids
even younger, you know?
Especially about people
with differences,
that it will help with accepting
and making everyone feel like
they're part of the human race,
'cause they are.
- Yeah.
The thing with guessing
is that it's more risky and
less risky at the same time.
Because if you just guess
as to what somebody is like,
you don't have to
risk asking them
and getting it wrong, you know?
But if you guess and you
get it wrong, it's worse!
[laughing]
But there's a vulnerability
and a willingness to be
awkward with each other,
which I think maybe
technology smooths over a bit,
and I'm very
pro-awkwardness and...
[laughing]
I just...
And I think, I don't know...
I think that theater can kind
of help us with these stories
to facilitate these
kinds of conversations.
That feels very
productive to me.
But, Loryn, what about you?
- So, I worked with little
littles, the three-year-olds.
Those were my groups.
I had a sports class
with these kids,
and I think this
is a good example
of just really seeing
kids being kids
and little people, really.
I had three boys,
all very different,
and two were on the spectrum,
I think one was
officially diagnosed,
the other was not and
it was, you know...
I mean, they're
three, four, you know?
All of 'em don't
wanna sit still,
and being able to work
within what they needed
and still teach them what I
was supposed to be teaching
with, you know, how to
hold a hockey stick.
Which I'm gonna be honest,
I had to look that up too.
[all laughing]
But we couldn't listen to music.
That was part of the thing.
We were supposed to listen to
music for every single thing,
and so, I would ask each one,
"How are you feeling
today about music?"
If somebody said
they could do it,
but we needed to keep it low,
then we turned on the music,
we all were quiet and
we would, you know,
adjust the music level to make
sure that everybody was okay
and nobody needed
to cover their ears.
And as soon as you needed
to cover your ears,
we turned the music off.
And it just...
Nobody was mad at anybody
for not being able to
listen to the music.
Or somebody really wanted to,
so we had a discussion.
"Today this song is really
important that we listen to it,
"can we just, for this one song?
"And then we don't have
to listen to any more?"
Of course, that was what we
agreed to and it worked out.
I had one of the
parents actually say,
"Nobody has actually gotten him
"to do all of the things
that you've been able to do."
I think what it comes down to
is listening and adjusting...
I was the one with the
most capability and...
I mean, I was the oldest,
I was the maturest,
you know, whatever,
all of those things and I was...
I had to step back, you know?
It wasn't about what I needed.
Like, did I wanna listen
to that song today?
Maybe I did, but it
wasn't what I needed.
It mattered, you know, or, what,
it's what, you know, he needed.
And I think that's a big thing,
is being able to
take a step back,
meet the person who
has the most needs,
and maybe he needs the most
representation or what have you,
and let that shine.
Because it's not about you.
It's about the other person.
- Lindsay: Thanks.
All right, any closing
thoughts from y'all?
- Lori: Thank you
for being here.
[all laughing]
- Kathleen: Thanks
for inviting us.
- Thank you everybody
for your patience,
for your thoughtfulness,
and your attention,
and enjoy the rest of Idea Fest.
[audience applauding]