1 00:00:02,466 --> 00:00:06,533 - Welcome to this theater, the first theater panel, 2 00:00:06,633 --> 00:00:09,966 the only theater panel at Cap Times Idea Fest 2019. 3 00:00:10,066 --> 00:00:11,366 I am your host, Lindsay Christians, 4 00:00:11,466 --> 00:00:12,766 I have been writing about the arts 5 00:00:12,866 --> 00:00:14,766 for the Cap Times since 2008, 6 00:00:16,133 --> 00:00:18,300 which is also the year I graduated from this institution 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:19,733 with a master's in theater research, 8 00:00:19,833 --> 00:00:22,500 so my theater training comes from here. 9 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:25,133 You know, go Badgers! 10 00:00:25,233 --> 00:00:27,333 So, today, we're gonna be talking about what happens 11 00:00:27,433 --> 00:00:30,366 when predominately white, non-disabled companies 12 00:00:30,466 --> 00:00:32,133 diversify the stories they tell 13 00:00:32,233 --> 00:00:33,866 and the artists that they work with. 14 00:00:33,966 --> 00:00:36,566 And I'm gonna read you just a few bios of my panelists 15 00:00:36,666 --> 00:00:39,900 who are wonderful, and I'm so glad that you're all here, 16 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,466 in whatever way you can be. 17 00:00:42,666 --> 00:00:44,633 Marti Gobel, right here on the phone, 18 00:00:44,733 --> 00:00:46,933 is an actor, director, and teaching artist 19 00:00:47,033 --> 00:00:48,166 based in Milwaukee. 20 00:00:48,266 --> 00:00:49,766 She was a resident teaching artist 21 00:00:49,866 --> 00:00:51,366 with Renaissance Theaterworks, 22 00:00:51,466 --> 00:00:54,033 and has performed with Milwaukee Repertory Theater, 23 00:00:54,133 --> 00:00:56,700 Next Act Theatre, Milwaukee Chamber Theatre, 24 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:57,866 and many others. 25 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:00,533 In Madison, she directed Exit Strategy 26 00:01:00,633 --> 00:01:02,033 for Forward Theater. 27 00:01:02,133 --> 00:01:04,533 She starred in Forward's Skeleton Crew last season 28 00:01:04,633 --> 00:01:07,300 and she performed in No Child with Theatre LILA 29 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,233 a few years ago, you saw that. 30 00:01:09,333 --> 00:01:11,733 She's a proud member of The Actors' Equity Association 31 00:01:11,833 --> 00:01:13,433 and the Screen Actors Guild, 32 00:01:13,533 --> 00:01:16,533 American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. 33 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,933 Loryn Jonelis, over here, is a film and stage actor 34 00:01:22,033 --> 00:01:24,233 and choreographer in the Madison area. 35 00:01:24,333 --> 00:01:26,566 He has appeared on stage as transgender characters 36 00:01:26,666 --> 00:01:29,633 in StageQ's Standards of Care and cisgender characters 37 00:01:29,733 --> 00:01:31,633 as in Sweet William at Broom Street Theater 38 00:01:31,733 --> 00:01:32,866 and The Mineola Twins 39 00:01:32,966 --> 00:01:34,966 with Kathie Rasmussen Women's Theatre. 40 00:01:35,066 --> 00:01:37,400 He likes sharks, the color green, and teaching. 41 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:39,633 [all laughing] 42 00:01:39,733 --> 00:01:43,033 Lori Kido Lopez is an associate professor 43 00:01:43,133 --> 00:01:44,566 of media and cultural studies 44 00:01:44,666 --> 00:01:46,500 at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, 45 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,866 where she studies race and representation in the media. 46 00:01:49,966 --> 00:01:52,666 She studies how women, people of color, and queer communities 47 00:01:52,766 --> 00:01:55,933 use media in the fight for social justice. 48 00:01:56,033 --> 00:01:59,866 In 2014, Lori founded The Race and Media Conference. 49 00:01:59,966 --> 00:02:02,366 She's the author of Asian American Media Activism: 50 00:02:02,466 --> 00:02:05,366 Fighting for Cultural Citizenship and co-editor 51 00:02:05,466 --> 00:02:07,633 of The Routledge Companion to Asian American Media . 52 00:02:07,733 --> 00:02:09,100 Welcome, Lori. - Thanks. 53 00:02:10,333 --> 00:02:12,466 - Kathleen Tissot here, on my right, 54 00:02:12,566 --> 00:02:14,333 has been involved on and off stage 55 00:02:14,433 --> 00:02:16,133 with various Madison theater companies 56 00:02:16,233 --> 00:02:18,400 for the past 20 plus years. 57 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:21,466 For 15 of those years, she was the speech pathologist 58 00:02:21,566 --> 00:02:25,766 and drama advisor/play director at Oregon High School. 59 00:02:25,866 --> 00:02:27,600 There, she developed a social skills program 60 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:29,666 for students on the autism spectrum 61 00:02:29,766 --> 00:02:33,066 and strive for inclusivity in the theater drama program. 62 00:02:33,166 --> 00:02:34,400 She recently directed 63 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:36,200 The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time 64 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:39,266 for Strollers Theatre, starring a former student of hers 65 00:02:39,366 --> 00:02:40,900 who is on the autism spectrum. 66 00:02:41,966 --> 00:02:44,000 Welcome, Kathleen. - Thanks. 67 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:48,000 - So I wanna start by framing this discussion a little bit. 68 00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:51,400 We talk about whose stories get told, who tells them, 69 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:54,800 who is watching and listening, and within that context, 70 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:57,900 diversity can mean a lot of different things. 71 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,100 Diversity and inclusion are not the same, 72 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,666 just like equality and equity are not the same. 73 00:03:04,766 --> 00:03:06,466 So the way I think of it is that 74 00:03:06,566 --> 00:03:08,633 diversity is a movie like The Help , 75 00:03:08,733 --> 00:03:10,833 which has this white savior narrative, 76 00:03:10,933 --> 00:03:13,300 and inclusion is maybe a film like Moonlight , 77 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,333 where we have a black gay playwright 78 00:03:15,433 --> 00:03:17,100 telling this coming-of-age story. 79 00:03:18,566 --> 00:03:21,466 To make a theater connection, diversity is Miss Saigon 80 00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:24,433 and inclusion is Qui Nguyen's Vietgone . 81 00:03:24,533 --> 00:03:27,066 So, to kinda bring it back to theater a little bit. 82 00:03:27,166 --> 00:03:28,633 My first question is for Marti. 83 00:03:28,733 --> 00:03:30,600 Hi, Marti, can you still hear? 84 00:03:31,666 --> 00:03:33,700 - I am still here. - Awesome. 85 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,933 I was hoping that actually 86 00:03:35,033 --> 00:03:36,466 that you could start the conversation 87 00:03:36,566 --> 00:03:38,466 because you do speak about this pretty frequently, 88 00:03:38,566 --> 00:03:41,133 about the need for more diverse representation onstage, 89 00:03:41,233 --> 00:03:44,266 and you've worked so extensively here in Wisconsin. 90 00:03:44,366 --> 00:03:47,100 How do you distinguish between diversity and inclusion 91 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:48,966 in regional theater companies? 92 00:03:49,066 --> 00:03:52,600 - Marti: Okay, let me say that 93 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:54,666 of course we are working very, very, 94 00:03:56,233 --> 00:03:59,566 I think, rigorously to increase diversity 95 00:03:59,666 --> 00:04:01,800 as far as the stages in Wisconsin, 96 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:03,900 but we have not reached a point of inclusion 97 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,666 in my personal opinion. 98 00:04:05,766 --> 00:04:09,000 And what I mean by that is that we have diverse stories 99 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:10,500 that are being told, 100 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,400 we have directors that are telling diverse stories 101 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:13,866 and helping to aid in that, 102 00:04:13,966 --> 00:04:16,333 we certainly have a diverse talent pool. 103 00:04:16,433 --> 00:04:18,333 But what we don't have is inclusion 104 00:04:18,433 --> 00:04:21,733 in those that are in positions of power 105 00:04:21,833 --> 00:04:25,300 or those that are directing plays that are outside those 106 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,833 that include diverse cast and story. 107 00:04:29,933 --> 00:04:32,933 And so, that's an issue that I think we need to look at. 108 00:04:33,033 --> 00:04:36,466 - Yeah, I think I remember hearing it in the context 109 00:04:36,566 --> 00:04:40,133 of like when sort of a classical theater company 110 00:04:40,233 --> 00:04:43,066 hires an African-American director to direct something 111 00:04:43,166 --> 00:04:46,166 that's not an August Wilson play, that's like a Shakespeare. 112 00:04:47,666 --> 00:04:48,833 - Yes. - Yeah. 113 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,133 - Marti: Shakespeare is more universal 114 00:04:51,233 --> 00:04:54,733 and I know that they've done, at the APT, 115 00:04:54,833 --> 00:04:57,333 they've done Our Country's Good , 116 00:04:57,433 --> 00:04:58,800 but what you're still looking at 117 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:03,200 is people that are including casts of folks of color. 118 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:05,733 Not necessarily, we haven't seen a person of color 119 00:05:05,833 --> 00:05:07,200 direct, say, Buried Child . 120 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:09,966 - Ah, the Sam Shepard play. 121 00:05:11,133 --> 00:05:12,800 - Marti: Or Sam Shepard or Tennessee Williams, 122 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:14,833 this is the kind of thing that I'm talking about. 123 00:05:14,933 --> 00:05:16,266 - Got it, okay. 124 00:05:16,366 --> 00:05:17,533 Thank you. 125 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,633 Loryn, you've played sort of both cisgender 126 00:05:21,733 --> 00:05:23,700 and transgender characters on stage, 127 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,900 and I wonder for you, what are the challenges and rewards 128 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,733 of playing a character who may be negotiating 129 00:05:29,833 --> 00:05:32,333 their gender identity as a character? 130 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,166 - Last, I mean... 131 00:05:36,266 --> 00:05:38,000 When I first played a transgender character, 132 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:40,166 I did not identify as trans, 133 00:05:40,266 --> 00:05:45,033 and so, that allowed me to explore that in myself 134 00:05:45,133 --> 00:05:47,866 and kind of use that to grow. 135 00:05:49,166 --> 00:05:51,400 Playing a cisgender character, that's just kind of, 136 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:55,333 I feel like it's what you want as a trans actor, 137 00:05:55,433 --> 00:05:56,933 to just be able to play a character, 138 00:05:57,033 --> 00:05:59,966 it doesn't matter if they're male, 139 00:06:00,066 --> 00:06:01,733 female, transgender or not. 140 00:06:01,833 --> 00:06:03,500 I mean, it doesn't matter, 141 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,533 you just wanna play the character. 142 00:06:05,633 --> 00:06:09,033 And to play those, I think that's been the... 143 00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:12,366 I guess, the dream, we'll say. 144 00:06:12,466 --> 00:06:14,400 'Cause a lot of the times, 145 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,533 you're pegged as just playing a trans character. 146 00:06:18,533 --> 00:06:20,433 I think I feel like I fit right into like, 147 00:06:20,533 --> 00:06:22,466 I always play teenage boys. 148 00:06:22,566 --> 00:06:25,433 I'm still like, between a lot of phases 149 00:06:25,533 --> 00:06:27,833 because I just started testosterone, 150 00:06:27,933 --> 00:06:29,933 I can't really grow facial hair yet. 151 00:06:30,033 --> 00:06:31,333 Granted, I may never. 152 00:06:31,433 --> 00:06:35,800 So, that's another issue with how you cast 153 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:37,366 based on appearance, 154 00:06:37,466 --> 00:06:41,266 and I think that has been the challenge 155 00:06:41,366 --> 00:06:44,600 with that in general. 156 00:06:46,066 --> 00:06:48,300 - When you think about what roles you're going out for, 157 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,000 if you were gonna be handing your, 158 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:53,700 I keep thinking CV, that's the wrong word. 159 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:54,800 But you know, same thing. 160 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:56,200 [laughing] 161 00:06:56,300 --> 00:06:58,400 I mean, what you wanna use pronouns on it? 162 00:07:00,433 --> 00:07:05,066 - At this point, yes, I still get misgendered, 163 00:07:05,166 --> 00:07:07,566 so I would wanna use pronouns. 164 00:07:07,666 --> 00:07:11,366 But once that stops being a thing, then I don't care. 165 00:07:11,466 --> 00:07:12,933 For me, at least. 166 00:07:13,033 --> 00:07:16,566 And that is also something that changes person to person, 167 00:07:16,666 --> 00:07:19,666 whether you wanna use the pronouns or not. 168 00:07:19,766 --> 00:07:20,933 - Nice, thank you. 169 00:07:22,733 --> 00:07:24,666 Lori, I wanted to talk with you 170 00:07:24,766 --> 00:07:27,033 about what are some of the pitfalls, 171 00:07:27,133 --> 00:07:29,600 that when predominately white organizations 172 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:31,033 will reach out to communities of color 173 00:07:31,133 --> 00:07:33,766 to wanna involve them. 174 00:07:33,866 --> 00:07:36,133 What are some of the things that can go wrong 175 00:07:36,233 --> 00:07:38,833 and maybe go right in those situations? 176 00:07:38,933 --> 00:07:41,266 - Yeah, I have a couple of suggestions about that, 177 00:07:41,366 --> 00:07:42,966 and since I'm more of a community member 178 00:07:43,066 --> 00:07:46,933 than a theater professional, I can speak to that experience. 179 00:07:47,033 --> 00:07:49,900 So I think that it's a great idea to reach out 180 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,400 to community members if you're putting on a play 181 00:07:53,566 --> 00:07:56,300 that you think will maybe be controversial 182 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,633 or something that you want to bring more voices in on. 183 00:07:59,733 --> 00:08:01,300 And there's some good ways to do that 184 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,700 and some less good ways to do that. 185 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,800 I would say the first thing to think about 186 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:08,233 is that if you are inviting community members in 187 00:08:08,333 --> 00:08:10,566 to do like a talk back or a program, 188 00:08:10,666 --> 00:08:12,233 then you should actually be open 189 00:08:12,333 --> 00:08:14,533 to listening to what they have to say. 190 00:08:14,633 --> 00:08:17,066 So, this is not the kind of situation 191 00:08:17,166 --> 00:08:20,033 where you should think about being controlling 192 00:08:20,133 --> 00:08:21,933 or limiting what they're gonna say, 193 00:08:22,033 --> 00:08:24,533 because, you know, the reality is you're bringing them in 194 00:08:24,633 --> 00:08:26,133 to do some critical work 195 00:08:26,233 --> 00:08:27,900 or to challenge what's been going on. 196 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,333 If there wasn't a problem, 197 00:08:29,433 --> 00:08:31,533 you probably wouldn't have invited them in the first place. 198 00:08:31,633 --> 00:08:34,033 So, actually being open to listening 199 00:08:34,133 --> 00:08:35,300 to what they have to say 200 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,266 and respecting what people have to say, 201 00:08:37,366 --> 00:08:40,133 if you do that work of inviting them into your space. 202 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:43,566 I also think that, you know, this happens a lot 203 00:08:43,666 --> 00:08:46,066 when a theater group is putting on something 204 00:08:46,166 --> 00:08:48,466 that they think that people might be upset about, 205 00:08:48,566 --> 00:08:52,366 but that a lot of groundwork could happen proactively 206 00:08:52,466 --> 00:08:53,900 before that happens. 207 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,966 So instead of waiting until you are afraid 208 00:08:57,066 --> 00:08:59,366 that somebody from the community might be upset, 209 00:08:59,466 --> 00:09:01,633 actually proactively building relationships 210 00:09:01,733 --> 00:09:03,100 in minority communities, 211 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,100 thinking about who is not already not being represented, 212 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,100 or whose voices are being left out, 213 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,533 thinking about how that makes them feel 214 00:09:09,633 --> 00:09:10,866 and how you can reach out 215 00:09:10,966 --> 00:09:12,900 and make sure they are part of your community. 216 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,300 And that you know who these people are 217 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,166 and that you have meaningful connections with them 218 00:09:18,266 --> 00:09:19,833 before a crisis comes up, 219 00:09:19,933 --> 00:09:21,633 and then all the sudden, you're turning to them 220 00:09:21,733 --> 00:09:23,400 to solve a problem for you. 221 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:25,833 That's not the best relationship to have, 222 00:09:25,933 --> 00:09:28,900 if that's at all possible. 223 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,700 And then I think it's also just important to remember 224 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,166 that these people that you are calling in 225 00:09:34,266 --> 00:09:37,100 to do this kind of work, it can be really hard labor. 226 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,066 It's difficult intellectual labor and emotional labor. 227 00:09:41,166 --> 00:09:43,366 People of color and people of other minority backgrounds 228 00:09:43,466 --> 00:09:46,200 spend their entire lives being expected to educate people 229 00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:48,433 about their experiences and their struggles 230 00:09:48,533 --> 00:09:51,400 and all the things that they should know about them. 231 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:52,833 And that's really difficult work 232 00:09:52,933 --> 00:09:54,733 that is often uncompensated. 233 00:09:55,733 --> 00:09:57,300 So, just recognizing that a lot of people 234 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,500 might not be interested in doing that kind of labor for you 235 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,166 and to keep trying. 236 00:10:02,266 --> 00:10:05,200 There are lots of people who are very eager and willing 237 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:09,700 to be ambassadors and educators and do that kind of work. 238 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:10,966 So, it's just about knowing 239 00:10:11,066 --> 00:10:13,700 that you may encounter that kind of response, 240 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,033 but to not let that make you feel 241 00:10:17,133 --> 00:10:18,666 like you should give up on the enterprise. 242 00:10:18,766 --> 00:10:22,166 And then also to think about how white people 243 00:10:22,266 --> 00:10:24,533 and people of other majority identities 244 00:10:24,633 --> 00:10:26,766 and privileged identities, should also be always working 245 00:10:26,866 --> 00:10:29,200 to educate themselves, also proactively. 246 00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:32,000 And not just kind of sitting back and waiting 247 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:34,400 for someone to come and educate you, 248 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:37,433 but to do that work of educating yourself 249 00:10:37,533 --> 00:10:39,566 and trying to put yourself in the best position 250 00:10:39,666 --> 00:10:41,300 to be more open and receptive 251 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,166 to whatever it is that you will continue learning 252 00:10:44,266 --> 00:10:47,300 once you're actually engaging with people of color. 253 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,100 - Thank you. - Yeah. 254 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,433 - Kathleen, my question for you is about Curious Incident 255 00:10:53,533 --> 00:10:56,133 and working with the young performer that you did, 256 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,333 I wonder if you could just frame that a little bit 257 00:10:59,433 --> 00:11:02,166 and talk about why that project was important to you? 258 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,133 - Curious Incident was important to me 259 00:11:05,233 --> 00:11:06,633 on many, many levels. 260 00:11:08,233 --> 00:11:11,866 My career has been in speech pathology, 261 00:11:11,966 --> 00:11:14,400 which deals frequently with kids 262 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:16,366 with social skills on the autism spectrum, 263 00:11:16,466 --> 00:11:18,366 and that goes way back. 264 00:11:18,466 --> 00:11:20,633 My nine-year-old grandson has autism. 265 00:11:22,166 --> 00:11:23,333 I have some of... 266 00:11:23,433 --> 00:11:24,566 The people that... 267 00:11:24,666 --> 00:11:26,233 The best people I've worked with have autism. 268 00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:27,700 So, it had a lot of things. 269 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,533 And the thing about the play that attracted me, 270 00:11:29,633 --> 00:11:32,566 was that it has a very hopeful ending. 271 00:11:32,666 --> 00:11:36,100 He says, "I did this and this and this and this and this. 272 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,800 "That means I can do anything, right?" 273 00:11:38,900 --> 00:11:40,633 And she doesn't really answer him, 274 00:11:40,733 --> 00:11:41,833 but you get the feeling 275 00:11:41,933 --> 00:11:43,533 like he really believes he can do anything, 276 00:11:43,633 --> 00:11:44,733 which is the coolest thing 277 00:11:44,833 --> 00:11:46,666 that you can possibly hope for somebody. 278 00:11:46,766 --> 00:11:48,633 Okay, that's one reason. 279 00:11:48,733 --> 00:11:51,300 And the second one was I knew early on, 280 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,900 once I knew I was gonna direct it, 281 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,500 that I wanted to, if at all possible, 282 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,466 I wanted to have somebody on the autism spectrum. 283 00:11:58,566 --> 00:12:04,300 I know a lot of people who have that neurodifference, 284 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,566 but Peyton was a former student of mine. 285 00:12:08,666 --> 00:12:11,100 He was in the last play that I directed at Oregon, 286 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,966 and he's a very talented young man 287 00:12:13,066 --> 00:12:14,433 with a great interest in theater. 288 00:12:14,533 --> 00:12:17,066 He wanted to go to college and major in theater. 289 00:12:17,166 --> 00:12:19,233 So, when this came up, 290 00:12:19,333 --> 00:12:21,666 I contacted him and a couple other people that I knew 291 00:12:21,766 --> 00:12:24,333 and I auditioned them, way, way ahead of time. 292 00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:27,766 And Peyton was the choice. 293 00:12:27,866 --> 00:12:30,300 If Peyton had not been in the picture, 294 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,600 and I just auditioned 295 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:33,633 these other couple people that I had, 296 00:12:34,633 --> 00:12:36,466 I think I might have gone a different route, 297 00:12:36,566 --> 00:12:39,733 which is, you know, maybe... 298 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:41,900 I would have used it more 299 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,366 as a consulting and learning thing. 300 00:12:43,466 --> 00:12:46,566 But it was important for me to try to find somebody, 301 00:12:46,666 --> 00:12:47,733 a first choice. 302 00:12:47,833 --> 00:12:49,000 - Lindsay: Ah, I see. 303 00:12:50,466 --> 00:12:53,766 - And Peyton was just the right person for that role, 304 00:12:53,866 --> 00:12:55,100 he really was, so. 305 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:56,700 - Lindsay: It took him a little longer 306 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,000 to get ready for it, right? 307 00:12:58,100 --> 00:12:59,566 Like he took extra time to prepare? 308 00:12:59,666 --> 00:13:04,433 - Actually, I thought it might, because I auditioned him 309 00:13:04,533 --> 00:13:06,200 probably nine months before anybody else. 310 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:07,466 - Lindsay: Oh, wow. 311 00:13:07,566 --> 00:13:09,933 - Thinking that way he could learn the role, 312 00:13:10,033 --> 00:13:11,366 like could do all this stuff, 313 00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:14,033 he didn't even look at the script until after it was cast. 314 00:13:14,133 --> 00:13:15,033 [laughing] 315 00:13:15,133 --> 00:13:16,333 And I was like "Peyton!" 316 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:19,300 He has a lot of-- 317 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,900 He has a really good ability to learn things quickly, 318 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,300 he's the first one off book, he's the first one all that, 319 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,366 but I wanted to make sure that he knew 320 00:13:27,466 --> 00:13:30,033 and had time to adjust if he needed. 321 00:13:30,133 --> 00:13:31,800 He's very self-aware, 322 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,700 and when you cast somebody in a role like that, 323 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,500 I think it's very helpful to have someone 324 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,766 who is able to follow direction and be self-aware 325 00:13:40,866 --> 00:13:43,233 and not everybody is, everybody's different. 326 00:13:43,333 --> 00:13:44,600 And you have to... 327 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,000 Everybody is a person, 328 00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:47,333 and everyone's got a different background 329 00:13:47,433 --> 00:13:48,466 and abilities and all that. 330 00:13:48,566 --> 00:13:51,066 And when you're putting a show together, 331 00:13:51,166 --> 00:13:53,366 you do need to have certain things, 332 00:13:53,466 --> 00:13:55,566 like can the person follow directions? 333 00:13:55,666 --> 00:13:58,900 Can the person have self-awareness 334 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,266 to be able to introspective 335 00:14:00,366 --> 00:14:02,033 and see how they're different from this character? 336 00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:05,500 And Peyton is very definitely different from the character, 337 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:09,566 but he didn't need the time after all, he just... 338 00:14:09,666 --> 00:14:11,800 - That's so great. - He's awesome. 339 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,400 - So, Marti, I have a question for you. 340 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,966 - Marti: I would love to have it. 341 00:14:18,066 --> 00:14:19,733 [all laughing] 342 00:14:20,733 --> 00:14:23,366 - What are the barriers to regional theaters producing 343 00:14:23,466 --> 00:14:27,233 more stories that are by, about, and for people of color 344 00:14:27,333 --> 00:14:30,300 and maybe what are some of the techniques that have worked? 345 00:14:31,633 --> 00:14:34,033 - Marti: I think the major barrier for me 346 00:14:34,133 --> 00:14:35,966 is I'm kind of wading through this, 347 00:14:36,066 --> 00:14:38,433 both as a director and as an actor, 348 00:14:38,533 --> 00:14:45,866 is that in order to competently show stories 349 00:14:45,966 --> 00:14:47,733 that are including people of color, 350 00:14:47,833 --> 00:14:51,166 they need to be able to have cut their teeth 351 00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:54,200 on other lead roles. 352 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:56,700 So that you can't just have them come out 353 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,633 and play a lead role for the first time 354 00:14:58,733 --> 00:15:02,033 after doing years and years and years of supporting roles 355 00:15:02,133 --> 00:15:04,666 in shows that aren't necessarily designed 356 00:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,500 to represent people of color on stage. 357 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,466 So then it begins to be a problem 358 00:15:09,566 --> 00:15:14,400 when it dominoes to the point where you have actors 359 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:18,333 that haven't been given the opportunity to take lead. 360 00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:22,433 And so, I think the answer to that is twofold, 361 00:15:22,533 --> 00:15:26,133 that we need to be including also in Shakespeare, 362 00:15:26,233 --> 00:15:28,433 actors that are given lead roles, 363 00:15:28,533 --> 00:15:30,600 so that when they step into roles 364 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,466 that require them to hold a role in a leading way, 365 00:15:37,466 --> 00:15:38,800 that they are properly trained and prepared 366 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,100 and have the muscles in order to do that. 367 00:15:43,033 --> 00:15:46,900 We need more people of color in power, 368 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,166 so that they're selecting these shows, 369 00:15:49,266 --> 00:15:51,266 so that they're hiring directors, 370 00:15:51,366 --> 00:15:54,266 so that they're making sure that rooms, 371 00:15:54,366 --> 00:15:57,700 which we have a serious problem with this in Wisconsin, 372 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,900 are not just echo chambers. 373 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,533 It's not enough to just voice your support 374 00:16:02,633 --> 00:16:03,933 for other communities, 375 00:16:04,033 --> 00:16:06,366 it's important to also be involved in them. 376 00:16:06,466 --> 00:16:09,900 And that, getting back to your question about inclusion. 377 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,933 So, right now, Wisconsin, 378 00:16:13,133 --> 00:16:15,666 at the upper levels concerning theater, 379 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,333 is pretty much operating in an echo chamber, 380 00:16:19,433 --> 00:16:20,966 to me, in my opinion. 381 00:16:22,633 --> 00:16:25,033 So I think we need to get outta that chamber. 382 00:16:25,133 --> 00:16:29,433 - Yeah, I'm nodding, you can't see me nod but thank you. 383 00:16:31,366 --> 00:16:34,066 I wonder if there are examples of companies 384 00:16:34,166 --> 00:16:38,466 that you think are doing this work in productive 385 00:16:38,566 --> 00:16:40,733 and helpful ways that maybe could offer, 386 00:16:40,833 --> 00:16:42,633 whether they're in Wisconsin or not. 387 00:16:43,633 --> 00:16:44,966 - Marti: No. 388 00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:47,933 - All right. [laughing] 389 00:16:48,033 --> 00:16:49,266 - Marti: Yeah, I mean, 390 00:16:49,366 --> 00:16:50,933 and I work with all of these companies 391 00:16:51,033 --> 00:16:53,433 and many of them are my dear, dear friends, 392 00:16:53,533 --> 00:16:55,233 and I see all this. 393 00:16:55,333 --> 00:16:59,433 But if you can name for me one theater company in Wisconsin 394 00:16:59,533 --> 00:17:04,500 that has a person of color in administration, introduction, 395 00:17:05,866 --> 00:17:10,733 and in artistic decision-making, then, please, correct me. 396 00:17:12,133 --> 00:17:13,600 - Yeah, I can't. 397 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:15,766 Thank you. 398 00:17:16,766 --> 00:17:18,933 Lori, I actually wanted to ask you a little bit about 399 00:17:19,033 --> 00:17:22,600 like how power differentials play a role in programming, 400 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:24,400 'cause I think that it has a nice overlap 401 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,100 to your work with media 402 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,433 and how we see representation in media. 403 00:17:28,533 --> 00:17:32,000 And I wonder if you can speak maybe briefly to 404 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,800 how implicit bias can function in that? 405 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,333 - Yeah, absolutely. 406 00:17:36,433 --> 00:17:39,033 So when we talk about implicit bias, 407 00:17:39,133 --> 00:17:42,700 we mean the distinction between explicit bias, 408 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,433 so racism where someone actually believes 409 00:17:45,533 --> 00:17:48,300 that people of color are inferior to white people 410 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,200 or have some sort of racial hatred, 411 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:52,200 that would be explicit bias. 412 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:54,500 But implicit bias is just what we get 413 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,400 from living in this world 414 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:58,266 where we consume the media that we do 415 00:17:58,366 --> 00:18:00,400 and go through the education system that we have 416 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,133 and are exposed to kind of theater that we have. 417 00:18:03,233 --> 00:18:07,000 And all those things do give us racialized ways of thinking, 418 00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,400 and we may believe that we are not racist, 419 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:14,000 and we may believe that we are trying to act in a way 420 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:15,600 that promotes racial equality, 421 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,900 but we still have these implicit biases, 422 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,800 and those show up in much more subtle ways. 423 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,266 So it impacts decisions like 424 00:18:23,366 --> 00:18:25,866 what plays people choose to put on, 425 00:18:25,966 --> 00:18:27,466 where if you look at two plays 426 00:18:27,566 --> 00:18:29,066 and one's written by a person of color 427 00:18:29,166 --> 00:18:30,700 and one was written by a white person, 428 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,700 you might not say, "Oh, well, the one by the person of color 429 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,300 "is bad because it's written by a person of color." 430 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,200 But I might be like, "Oh, I don't know. 431 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:39,733 "I don't like it as much, 432 00:18:39,833 --> 00:18:42,200 like I feel like it's just not quite there yet." 433 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,966 And the same thing can happen for casting 434 00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:46,800 when you're comparing people of different backgrounds, 435 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:48,700 and it's just like a slight hint of like, 436 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,533 "Well, they seem less experienced, 437 00:18:50,633 --> 00:18:53,800 "I may give them like a little bit less benefit of the doubt, 438 00:18:55,266 --> 00:18:57,266 "and I'm not exactly sure how they'll handle this." 439 00:18:57,366 --> 00:18:59,500 And then, I also think it goes on the other side 440 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,733 to how audiences are viewing productions and art and media 441 00:19:05,833 --> 00:19:07,933 where they also have like a little bit, 442 00:19:08,033 --> 00:19:11,200 like a slight bit of suspicion or a slight bit of dislike, 443 00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,433 and it's just kind of nudging them 444 00:19:13,533 --> 00:19:15,066 a little bit in a negative way. 445 00:19:15,166 --> 00:19:18,900 And that is an extra obstacle that we have to overcome, 446 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,600 and it's even harder to overcome 447 00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:22,100 because we're not aware of it, 448 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,333 and because it's not as obvious and overt, 449 00:19:26,433 --> 00:19:31,433 but those little nudges still add up to slow down progress. 450 00:19:32,766 --> 00:19:34,000 - Thank you. 451 00:19:35,066 --> 00:19:37,433 Loryn, I was curious, what kinds of, 452 00:19:37,533 --> 00:19:38,833 kind of in the same vein, 453 00:19:38,933 --> 00:19:40,700 like what kind of stories you see being told 454 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,866 about trans characters, and what kind of stories 455 00:19:42,966 --> 00:19:45,033 you'd like to see more of? 456 00:19:45,133 --> 00:19:47,266 - I don't see a whole lot of stories 457 00:19:47,366 --> 00:19:49,633 about transgender characters. 458 00:19:49,733 --> 00:19:52,100 I mean, obviously like Orange is the New Black , 459 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,633 yes, there was a very good storyline 460 00:19:55,733 --> 00:19:57,566 about a transgender woman. 461 00:19:57,666 --> 00:20:01,500 And honestly, that's often that you see stories 462 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,033 about transgender women, not necessarily transgender men. 463 00:20:05,133 --> 00:20:06,866 And there was an article, 464 00:20:06,966 --> 00:20:10,700 and I wish I had like, the citations for that article 465 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,966 that I read, 'cause I've referenced it several times 466 00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:15,100 and just can't remember where I found it. 467 00:20:16,466 --> 00:20:20,833 It talked about being raised male, 468 00:20:20,933 --> 00:20:23,600 you're given all of those privileges 469 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:27,433 that males have in our society. 470 00:20:27,533 --> 00:20:30,233 You're more likely to speak and step forward, 471 00:20:30,333 --> 00:20:32,033 whereas if you are raised female, 472 00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:34,066 like a transgender male would be, 473 00:20:34,166 --> 00:20:35,566 you still kinda hang back. 474 00:20:35,666 --> 00:20:39,433 And being raised female, you're taught to be quieter, 475 00:20:39,533 --> 00:20:44,333 more reserved, so I wonder if that plays into the fact 476 00:20:44,433 --> 00:20:47,000 that you see more stories about transgender women 477 00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:48,866 than you do about transgender men. 478 00:20:48,966 --> 00:20:56,233 And the few I have seen end in their murder, 479 00:20:56,333 --> 00:21:00,066 they're sexually assaulted all over TV like SVU . 480 00:21:00,166 --> 00:21:02,700 I love Law & Order: SVU , 481 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,733 but it is not great for transgender storylines. 482 00:21:07,633 --> 00:21:11,200 It kinda plays into somebody was tricked into a date 483 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:13,066 with a man and now they think they're gay 484 00:21:13,166 --> 00:21:14,700 so they're gonna kill the person. 485 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,233 It's like, that's really not how it works, 486 00:21:17,333 --> 00:21:19,633 and the TV show doesn't do a great job 487 00:21:19,733 --> 00:21:21,233 of talking about that either. 488 00:21:22,433 --> 00:21:25,100 But storylines I would like to see are just... 489 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,066 I work in a restaurant, that's where I make my money. 490 00:21:29,166 --> 00:21:31,100 Why isn't there just a transgender character 491 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,333 who's a bartender? 492 00:21:32,433 --> 00:21:34,666 Or a host? 493 00:21:34,766 --> 00:21:37,300 Or the flight attendant? 494 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,100 Just normalize being transgender, 'cause it's normal. 495 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,700 Yes, I get a shot every week, 496 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,533 some days I wear a binder, some days I don't. 497 00:21:48,633 --> 00:21:49,800 Let's talk about that, 498 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:52,133 let's just show that in somebody's life. 499 00:21:52,233 --> 00:21:58,900 And I got an audition casting notice for The L Word reboot, 500 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,233 and it was specifically said they wanted a trans male 501 00:22:02,333 --> 00:22:04,366 who was well into their transition. 502 00:22:05,733 --> 00:22:07,800 I don't know what exactly they wanted by that, 503 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:11,033 but you can't really, I mean, well into your transition? 504 00:22:11,133 --> 00:22:13,300 I feel like I am well into my transition. 505 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,400 I've identified as a trans male for three, four years, 506 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,866 I haven't been medically transitioning for that long, 507 00:22:21,966 --> 00:22:23,833 so I feel like that's something that 508 00:22:23,933 --> 00:22:28,366 needs to be taken out of things like that, because I am trans, 509 00:22:28,466 --> 00:22:30,533 and it doesn't matter how long I've identified this, 510 00:22:30,633 --> 00:22:32,666 I'm well into my transition. 511 00:22:32,766 --> 00:22:36,033 And so, again, I think just seeing people 512 00:22:36,133 --> 00:22:39,466 who haven't had top surgery, who maybe even aren't on hormones 513 00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:43,666 but they're identifying how they identify. 514 00:22:43,766 --> 00:22:46,600 That kinda takes that out of question, 515 00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:50,100 and really, it gives you a better idea 516 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,000 of who the trans community is. 517 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,333 - It seems to me like you're talking about 518 00:22:55,433 --> 00:22:57,466 moving the conversation from like being all about 519 00:22:57,566 --> 00:22:58,966 like identity and how you identify, 520 00:22:59,066 --> 00:23:02,033 to making it part of character development 521 00:23:02,133 --> 00:23:03,766 with other larger stories. 522 00:23:03,866 --> 00:23:04,933 - Sure. - Yeah. 523 00:23:05,033 --> 00:23:06,166 - Put it everywhere, really. 524 00:23:06,266 --> 00:23:10,233 I mean, I honestly have never had a question. 525 00:23:10,333 --> 00:23:12,566 One of the things in the trans community 526 00:23:12,666 --> 00:23:14,633 you don't wanna be asked, there are certain questions. 527 00:23:14,733 --> 00:23:17,166 I've never been asked those, 528 00:23:17,266 --> 00:23:21,033 because I think everybody is so scared to ask questions. 529 00:23:22,333 --> 00:23:24,300 Yeah, you may say something that-- 530 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,033 the question may be somewhat offensive, 531 00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:28,033 but I'm not gonna snap at you about it, 532 00:23:28,133 --> 00:23:30,033 I'm gonna be like, "Okay, so, I'm gonna answer this. 533 00:23:30,133 --> 00:23:32,233 "But probably phrase it differently next time 534 00:23:32,333 --> 00:23:33,800 "if you need to ask somebody else." 535 00:23:35,066 --> 00:23:37,600 No, it is not my job to educate, 536 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:39,733 but I'm always happy to educate. 537 00:23:39,833 --> 00:23:42,866 I want people to accept other people, 538 00:23:42,966 --> 00:23:47,866 and if me telling my story of being a trans man, 539 00:23:47,966 --> 00:23:51,333 if that helps somebody understand their granddaughter 540 00:23:51,433 --> 00:23:56,333 or grandson or their best friend, that means more to me 541 00:23:56,433 --> 00:24:00,300 than keeping certain parts of myself private. 542 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,900 So, I'd like to see, yeah, character development 543 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,433 with just people being people. 544 00:24:07,533 --> 00:24:09,533 - That sounds like some significant emotional labor. 545 00:24:09,633 --> 00:24:12,600 So, just wanna say thank you for that. 546 00:24:14,066 --> 00:24:16,533 Kathleen, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit 547 00:24:16,633 --> 00:24:18,333 about your work with students 548 00:24:18,433 --> 00:24:21,466 and how you empower particular students 549 00:24:21,566 --> 00:24:23,200 who may be neuroatypical, 550 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:26,200 or be working with other intellectual 551 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:28,800 or other kinds of disabilities? 552 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:31,133 How do you empower them through theater, 553 00:24:31,233 --> 00:24:33,766 and potentially what our community and regional theaters 554 00:24:33,866 --> 00:24:35,166 could learn from that? 555 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,000 - Well, first thing is people are people, 556 00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:42,100 and they need to be treated as a person, 557 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,433 not as their disability or their presentation. 558 00:24:49,466 --> 00:24:52,466 Like Loryn was just alluding to, just being people. 559 00:24:53,466 --> 00:24:56,600 And early on, when I started working at the high school, 560 00:24:58,033 --> 00:25:02,633 I took on the drama club and I was doing special ed stuff, 561 00:25:02,733 --> 00:25:05,566 and I did this play called The Boys Next Door . 562 00:25:05,666 --> 00:25:08,333 And it was important to me to do that play 563 00:25:08,433 --> 00:25:11,333 because at the time, the special ed department 564 00:25:11,433 --> 00:25:14,666 was kind of like relegated to this little thing. 565 00:25:14,766 --> 00:25:16,666 So I thought it was an important story to tell 566 00:25:16,766 --> 00:25:19,533 about this group of men who lived in a group home. 567 00:25:19,633 --> 00:25:22,200 And when I auditioned the play, 568 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:25,833 I didn't know a lot about who was available. 569 00:25:25,933 --> 00:25:29,166 And there was one young man who was learning disabled, 570 00:25:29,266 --> 00:25:31,566 but that was the only one who auditioned who was like that. 571 00:25:31,666 --> 00:25:36,433 So I decided, "Well, this cast needs to know people 572 00:25:36,533 --> 00:25:40,033 "who have what they're trying to portray," 573 00:25:40,133 --> 00:25:41,400 so I arranged a scrimmage 574 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,566 with the Special Olympics basketball team. 575 00:25:43,666 --> 00:25:47,666 And we developed relationship with the Special Olympians, 576 00:25:47,766 --> 00:25:54,133 and that, just that, even if we hadn't performed, was huge. 577 00:25:54,233 --> 00:25:56,600 And it was probably one of the better attended plays 578 00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:59,966 that ever happened for the ones that I directed. 579 00:26:01,933 --> 00:26:05,533 So it was inclusion of getting to know people 580 00:26:05,633 --> 00:26:08,333 that are different than you and seeing that you know what? 581 00:26:08,433 --> 00:26:09,566 It's not a caricature, 582 00:26:09,666 --> 00:26:12,133 you're not up there acting like, "Oh." 583 00:26:12,233 --> 00:26:16,233 You know, something wrong, that's not real, 584 00:26:16,333 --> 00:26:17,966 and it brings an authenticity to it, 585 00:26:18,066 --> 00:26:19,133 so that was early on. 586 00:26:19,233 --> 00:26:21,966 And then as time went on, there was... 587 00:26:22,066 --> 00:26:23,566 I had students that, 588 00:26:24,966 --> 00:26:28,400 whatever they wanted to audition for, whatever part, 589 00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:29,566 that was fine. 590 00:26:29,666 --> 00:26:32,933 So I had people auditioning for parts, 591 00:26:33,033 --> 00:26:35,566 like trans men and trans women. 592 00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:37,900 They were, they were-- 593 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,166 And they were just part of it, they were just people. 594 00:26:40,266 --> 00:26:41,633 And then later on, when I started 595 00:26:41,733 --> 00:26:43,466 the social skills class at the high school, 596 00:26:45,066 --> 00:26:47,600 Peyton was a early student, not in social skills, 597 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:52,133 but he was an early student of mine in speech, 598 00:26:52,233 --> 00:26:54,766 and he needed social skills training. 599 00:26:54,866 --> 00:26:59,300 And he was so special, I decided, "You know what? 600 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,366 "You'd be better off in drama club." 601 00:27:01,466 --> 00:27:04,066 And so, he was dismissed from special ed services 602 00:27:04,166 --> 00:27:06,800 and put in drama club, and he blossomed. 603 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:09,233 He was given the opportunity, he was treated like a person, 604 00:27:09,333 --> 00:27:11,600 he was accepted by the group. 605 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:12,800 I always told the kids, 606 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:14,866 "The drama kids are the nice kids in school. 607 00:27:14,966 --> 00:27:16,733 "If you're not nice, you don't stay." 608 00:27:16,833 --> 00:27:21,000 And it was true, the entire time I was there, that was true. 609 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,800 And so, you treat people as people, 610 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:27,833 and you don't give them like... 611 00:27:27,933 --> 00:27:31,066 It's like, "Oh, I need someone in my cast who's disabled, 612 00:27:31,166 --> 00:27:32,866 how can I fit them in?" 613 00:27:32,966 --> 00:27:37,066 No, if they have an interest and they are good for the part, 614 00:27:37,166 --> 00:27:38,566 hey, why not? 615 00:27:38,666 --> 00:27:40,666 And so, that was just the atmosphere. 616 00:27:40,766 --> 00:27:42,133 - It's interesting that you mentioned that 617 00:27:42,233 --> 00:27:44,866 when you first cast Peyton in Curious Incident , 618 00:27:44,966 --> 00:27:47,766 you didn't say like, "If I can't find someone 619 00:27:47,866 --> 00:27:50,766 "who's neuroatypical to play this character, 620 00:27:50,866 --> 00:27:52,033 "I won't do the play." 621 00:27:53,366 --> 00:27:55,933 And that makes me think about... 622 00:27:56,933 --> 00:27:58,433 To me, there are these kind of separate, 623 00:27:58,533 --> 00:28:02,633 almost separate buckets of like how we cast and the stories, 624 00:28:02,733 --> 00:28:05,033 and how we perform the stories, 625 00:28:05,133 --> 00:28:07,266 because if we say we can only be writing 626 00:28:07,366 --> 00:28:09,500 or performing stories that are true to our own experience, 627 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,100 that limits us in ways that makes me a little sad. 628 00:28:13,833 --> 00:28:17,933 But at the same time, there is a huge issue of who gets cast 629 00:28:18,033 --> 00:28:19,433 and who gets work. 630 00:28:19,533 --> 00:28:22,500 And as Marti was saying before, who is in power? 631 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,233 Who's in administration? 632 00:28:24,333 --> 00:28:25,800 And so,-- - Marti: Amen. 633 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:27,900 [all laughing] 634 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,200 - But I wonder, we sort of often talk about this idea of, 635 00:28:33,433 --> 00:28:34,566 you'll hear actors say, 636 00:28:34,666 --> 00:28:36,900 "I should be able to play anything," right? 637 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,233 "Because my job as an actor is to be creative, 638 00:28:40,333 --> 00:28:43,266 "is to imagine myself as someone who I'm not." 639 00:28:43,366 --> 00:28:45,033 But if they're aligned for you, 640 00:28:46,033 --> 00:28:48,033 and I guess that's sort of a question for anybody, 641 00:28:48,133 --> 00:28:50,700 but I wonder like Marti, is there a line for you 642 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:51,900 in terms of-- 643 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,266 - Marti: Absolutely, there's a line, 644 00:28:53,366 --> 00:28:55,666 and I'm way more conservative on this issue 645 00:28:55,766 --> 00:28:58,033 than people actually calculate. 646 00:28:58,133 --> 00:29:00,733 There is a difference between colorblind casting 647 00:29:00,833 --> 00:29:03,200 and nontraditional casting. 648 00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:07,533 You cannot blindly do anything; someone will get hurt. 649 00:29:07,633 --> 00:29:09,066 You just can't. 650 00:29:09,166 --> 00:29:11,400 And this is a situation where, again, 651 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,466 if we're not operating in an echo chamber, 652 00:29:13,566 --> 00:29:15,600 then you have somebody that will say, "Wait a minute, 653 00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:17,266 "you can't do that." 654 00:29:17,366 --> 00:29:18,700 Instead of convincing yourself 655 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,566 that something is appropriate or passable. 656 00:29:22,666 --> 00:29:25,233 So, to begin with the definition, 657 00:29:25,333 --> 00:29:26,833 colorblind casting is, 658 00:29:26,933 --> 00:29:31,033 I think, just wildly going out there and casting whoever 659 00:29:31,133 --> 00:29:33,200 and however people wanna do things. 660 00:29:34,533 --> 00:29:38,300 I, for instance, am not interested, and I'm surprised... 661 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,566 I usually offend somebody in this amount of time, 662 00:29:40,666 --> 00:29:42,233 so good Lord, here we go. 663 00:29:42,333 --> 00:29:45,533 If I'm not interested in seeing a Hispanic father 664 00:29:45,633 --> 00:29:49,166 married to an Asian woman with their black child, 665 00:29:49,266 --> 00:29:50,833 that is not... 666 00:29:50,933 --> 00:29:52,000 [laughing wryly] 667 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:54,266 Unless it's set up to be that this is a family 668 00:29:54,366 --> 00:29:56,566 that was blended in some creative ways. 669 00:29:56,666 --> 00:29:59,833 I have a family that has come together in that way. 670 00:29:59,933 --> 00:30:01,333 But if you're trying to tell me 671 00:30:01,433 --> 00:30:03,700 that this family is how it started 672 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,533 and was come together in a traditional way, 673 00:30:05,633 --> 00:30:08,000 then I'm immediately out of the story. 674 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:09,166 - Lindsay: Mm-hmm. 675 00:30:09,266 --> 00:30:11,000 - Marti: If you wanna take people and put, 676 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:12,733 take a, say, a Tennessee Williams play, 677 00:30:12,833 --> 00:30:15,000 who happens to be one of my favorite playwrights, 678 00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:18,466 and you wanna cast that with an all African-American cast, 679 00:30:18,566 --> 00:30:21,466 for the most part, that is absolutely possible, 680 00:30:21,566 --> 00:30:23,333 without changing the language. 681 00:30:23,433 --> 00:30:25,800 But then you have to track it all the way through. 682 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,833 And that's the difference between colorblind casting 683 00:30:28,933 --> 00:30:30,633 and nontraditional casts. 684 00:30:31,633 --> 00:30:36,200 If you have someone that is pretending to be another race, 685 00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:40,133 fully and totally, it becomes offensive. 686 00:30:40,233 --> 00:30:42,866 It becomes offensive to a lot of people. 687 00:30:42,966 --> 00:30:46,900 If you have someone that is being an actor, 688 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,366 that is doing a mimic or heightened mimicry 689 00:30:51,466 --> 00:30:54,233 of another person for the betterment of a play, 690 00:30:54,333 --> 00:30:56,833 say No Child..., that's a different thing. 691 00:30:56,933 --> 00:30:59,433 I never at one point in time tried to let anybody think 692 00:30:59,533 --> 00:31:01,566 that I was anything but a black woman, 693 00:31:01,666 --> 00:31:05,100 who was voicing for Latinx 694 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,566 or who was voicing for Asian people. 695 00:31:08,666 --> 00:31:10,533 When you have somebody that steps into a role 696 00:31:10,633 --> 00:31:13,700 and pretends to be another race, it's highly offensive. 697 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,033 We've had a huge discussion on this recently, 698 00:31:17,133 --> 00:31:21,800 and I thought it was fascinating that no one... 699 00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:22,966 [scoffing] 700 00:31:23,066 --> 00:31:26,300 No one wanted to address the fact 701 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,766 that A, it was a bad decision to begin with, 702 00:31:29,866 --> 00:31:32,266 and B, there are particular plays 703 00:31:32,366 --> 00:31:34,133 that need to be put on the shelf. 704 00:31:34,233 --> 00:31:37,166 There are literally thousands of plays. 705 00:31:37,266 --> 00:31:40,200 I am not interested in seeing Lend Me a Tenor . 706 00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:41,600 And there were a lot of people 707 00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:43,200 that voiced their opinions on what went on 708 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:44,800 with the particular situation that happened, 709 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:46,933 not only here, but in Missouri. 710 00:31:47,033 --> 00:31:50,433 But this is one of those when you're even referenced, 711 00:31:50,533 --> 00:31:52,033 in regards to the use of the word, 712 00:31:52,133 --> 00:31:54,166 particular words that we don't like to hear. 713 00:31:54,266 --> 00:31:56,266 Some people just don't get a vote. 714 00:31:57,433 --> 00:32:00,066 And if you're Caucasian and you're watching a play 715 00:32:00,166 --> 00:32:01,966 and you're like, "I think it's a good idea, 716 00:32:02,066 --> 00:32:03,166 "I think it was fine." 717 00:32:03,266 --> 00:32:04,400 Guess what? 718 00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:05,733 You're not the one that's offended. 719 00:32:06,933 --> 00:32:10,033 You're immediately have a less stake 720 00:32:10,133 --> 00:32:13,000 in what's being represented on stage than I do. 721 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,500 On this particular... 722 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,133 In this particular area. 723 00:32:17,233 --> 00:32:19,133 So to go back to it, no, 724 00:32:19,233 --> 00:32:24,133 colorblind casting is not appropriate. 725 00:32:24,233 --> 00:32:26,700 Nontraditional casting, when it works 726 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,566 and does not change the intent of the playwright, 727 00:32:29,666 --> 00:32:30,900 I'm absolutely for. 728 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,666 But I'm definitely more conservative on that 729 00:32:33,766 --> 00:32:35,600 than people may calculate. 730 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:38,900 - Do you think that colorblind casting is less prevalent now 731 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,100 than it used it be? 732 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,433 Like, say, in the '90s when it was like 733 00:32:42,533 --> 00:32:45,033 we're all the same under the skin kind of thing? 734 00:32:45,133 --> 00:32:48,566 The multiracial or the yeah, of the '90s. 735 00:32:48,666 --> 00:32:50,600 Do you see it happening less? 736 00:32:54,966 --> 00:32:59,300 - Marti: I see it happening in a more low-key way. 737 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,100 Some that you may have somebody who looks Latinx, 738 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,466 but is not, so that it passes. 739 00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:13,466 Or you may have somebody that is Dominican, 740 00:33:13,566 --> 00:33:16,200 but can play a black person. 741 00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:17,666 Which, we have the same origins, 742 00:33:17,766 --> 00:33:20,233 but we don't have the same cultural background. 743 00:33:20,333 --> 00:33:22,666 So, in that way, that it happens. 744 00:33:22,766 --> 00:33:25,866 And it happens for the Caucasian society too. 745 00:33:25,966 --> 00:33:28,033 I mean, it's also... [laughing wryly] 746 00:33:28,133 --> 00:33:29,833 It gets tricky when you have somebody 747 00:33:29,933 --> 00:33:31,333 learning a Russian accent 748 00:33:31,433 --> 00:33:34,666 and pretending to be Russian when they're not Russian. 749 00:33:34,766 --> 00:33:37,433 And you don't have somebody at the dramaturgical level 750 00:33:37,533 --> 00:33:38,633 that's helping them out. 751 00:33:38,733 --> 00:33:39,866 But we're not talking about that, 752 00:33:39,966 --> 00:33:41,300 I'm here to talk about brown skin. 753 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:42,966 [audience laughing] So, let me bring myself back. 754 00:33:43,066 --> 00:33:44,400 [all laughing] 755 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,233 So, I think it is happening, 756 00:33:47,333 --> 00:33:49,333 it's just people are learning the rules. 757 00:33:49,433 --> 00:33:52,866 So, you know, they're finding ways around it. 758 00:33:52,966 --> 00:33:54,466 Just like the laws could change, 759 00:33:54,566 --> 00:33:56,866 that doesn't mean people are changing 760 00:33:56,966 --> 00:33:58,366 as quickly as we would like. 761 00:34:00,066 --> 00:34:02,066 - Yeah, no, that feels true. 762 00:34:02,166 --> 00:34:03,433 Thank you. 763 00:34:03,533 --> 00:34:05,066 - Marti: Yep. 764 00:34:05,166 --> 00:34:07,500 - You're all teachers here on this panel, 765 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,466 and I wonder if any of you would like to speak 766 00:34:10,566 --> 00:34:13,800 to anything you've seen from students 767 00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:17,700 that makes you hopeful for a more inclusive theater future? 768 00:34:18,933 --> 00:34:20,266 - Marti: Ooh, me! 769 00:34:20,366 --> 00:34:23,333 I teach at UWM and at Marquette, 770 00:34:23,433 --> 00:34:25,066 and I think it's a fascinating thing, 771 00:34:25,166 --> 00:34:27,700 but it's also simultaneously frustrating for me, 772 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,633 which is what they're trying to do 773 00:34:29,733 --> 00:34:31,400 with gender identification. 774 00:34:32,466 --> 00:34:35,533 And the language that's being developed. 775 00:34:35,633 --> 00:34:37,333 And also it's gonna spill over 776 00:34:37,433 --> 00:34:41,100 into how we deal with people of different races. 777 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,200 Which is they're trying to remove it. 778 00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:46,100 I know for a fact that we won't see that in this lifetime, 779 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,266 it'll take several generations to happen, 780 00:34:48,366 --> 00:34:51,433 but they're not only trying to, and I see them doing it. 781 00:34:51,533 --> 00:34:55,800 They're not only trying to say that it should be a wash, 782 00:34:55,900 --> 00:35:00,233 but they're also trying to say that it shouldn't matter. 783 00:35:01,966 --> 00:35:05,500 And I love, I love the tide of this. 784 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,633 So that I can still, at some point, maybe 152, 785 00:35:09,733 --> 00:35:12,500 158 years down the line, walk in and someone go, 786 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,033 "Oh, that's a black woman," 787 00:35:14,133 --> 00:35:15,233 but it doesn't mean anything 788 00:35:15,333 --> 00:35:17,533 other than that's a black woman. 789 00:35:17,633 --> 00:35:20,300 And they are moving and taking great strides, 790 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,900 the younger generation, on changing the wiring 791 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,533 of how we look and categorize ourselves. 792 00:35:27,966 --> 00:35:29,866 - Cool, thank you. 793 00:35:29,966 --> 00:35:31,133 - Marti: Yep. 794 00:35:31,233 --> 00:35:32,300 [laughing] 795 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,700 - Lindsay: Any other thoughts on that? 796 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,033 Things you've seen from students? 797 00:35:35,133 --> 00:35:36,566 People that you've taught? 798 00:35:37,566 --> 00:35:39,066 - I was thinking about this in relation 799 00:35:39,166 --> 00:35:40,733 to the conversation you were just having 800 00:35:40,833 --> 00:35:42,066 about can anyone play any role? 801 00:35:42,166 --> 00:35:44,133 Because this is the kind of conversation I do have 802 00:35:44,233 --> 00:35:45,900 with my students all the time. 803 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,966 And you know, we may have had our multicultural moment 804 00:35:50,066 --> 00:35:52,833 in the '90s, but then we also have post-racism 805 00:35:52,933 --> 00:35:55,366 and post-racial discourse to deal with now, 806 00:35:55,466 --> 00:35:57,533 which is like the post-Obama idea 807 00:35:57,633 --> 00:35:59,066 that like we've conquered racism 808 00:35:59,166 --> 00:36:01,000 and race doesn't matter anymore. 809 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:03,066 Which I think is also kind of dying away, 810 00:36:03,166 --> 00:36:04,866 because we realize now more than ever 811 00:36:04,966 --> 00:36:06,833 that racism is alive and well. 812 00:36:07,833 --> 00:36:09,533 But you know, my students are always really excited 813 00:36:09,633 --> 00:36:10,700 to talk about these ideas 814 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,433 and to think through the differences 815 00:36:12,533 --> 00:36:14,933 between colorblindness and then doing something 816 00:36:15,033 --> 00:36:17,766 that's actually actively anti-racist. 817 00:36:17,866 --> 00:36:19,633 And how if we do nothing 818 00:36:19,733 --> 00:36:21,933 and we pretend like race doesn't matter, 819 00:36:22,033 --> 00:36:24,333 then we allow the status quo to continue, 820 00:36:24,433 --> 00:36:27,800 and that is a practice of upholding racism. 821 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:29,400 So, I have students who are really interested 822 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:31,200 in thinking about, and I was also thinking about 823 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:32,800 what you were saying about looking at shows 824 00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:35,333 like The L Word , which I'm in a class right now 825 00:36:35,433 --> 00:36:37,133 and we're gonna watch The L Word later. 826 00:36:37,233 --> 00:36:39,500 - Loryn: I'm so sorry. [all laughing] 827 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,100 - They talk about representations in it, 828 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,766 and my whole goal with my classes 829 00:36:43,866 --> 00:36:46,300 is to give students these sharper vocabularies 830 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,766 for describing and analyzing what's going on. 831 00:36:49,866 --> 00:36:52,266 So, they might watch these shows on their own 832 00:36:52,366 --> 00:36:53,700 and feel uncomfortable 833 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,533 and feel like this is mildly offensive in some way. 834 00:36:56,633 --> 00:36:58,133 But I wanna give them the actual tools 835 00:36:58,233 --> 00:37:00,333 for saying what's happening. 836 00:37:00,433 --> 00:37:02,900 And that way when they leave my class, 837 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,933 they can be more specific in describing what they see, 838 00:37:06,033 --> 00:37:07,566 but also bring that into their communities 839 00:37:07,666 --> 00:37:09,700 and talk to their friends and their family members. 840 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,333 They're often very excited to talk to their family 841 00:37:12,433 --> 00:37:16,033 about what they've been watching and how they feel about it. 842 00:37:16,133 --> 00:37:18,966 And describing the history that got us to where we were, 843 00:37:19,066 --> 00:37:21,966 and then why these images were made in the way that they are, 844 00:37:22,066 --> 00:37:24,800 and why change is so difficult in media industries 845 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:26,866 because of these power differentials. 846 00:37:26,966 --> 00:37:28,533 And so, I just get really excited 847 00:37:28,633 --> 00:37:30,533 when I get to talk to my students about this, 848 00:37:30,633 --> 00:37:32,933 and I see them developing that vocabulary 849 00:37:33,033 --> 00:37:35,133 and then bringing it with them into the world. 850 00:37:35,233 --> 00:37:36,300 - Lindsay: Mm-hmm. 851 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,100 - When we did Curious Incident , 852 00:37:39,333 --> 00:37:40,866 we brought in Peyton's mom, 853 00:37:40,966 --> 00:37:44,800 we brought in a respite worker for someone with autism, 854 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,066 we brought in my son and his wife 855 00:37:47,166 --> 00:37:49,333 to talk about their experiences as parents 856 00:37:49,433 --> 00:37:50,766 of kids with autism. 857 00:37:50,866 --> 00:37:54,366 And we learned about differences 858 00:37:54,466 --> 00:37:57,200 and how certain things might be an issue, 859 00:37:57,300 --> 00:37:58,866 or maybe not be an issue. 860 00:37:58,966 --> 00:38:00,700 And then we asked Peyton directly, 861 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,900 "So, what kinds of things do you need 862 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,533 "to make us have you participate in this well?" 863 00:38:06,633 --> 00:38:08,500 And he's very open with it. 864 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,033 Everyone that was a speaker in that information piece 865 00:38:13,133 --> 00:38:15,666 was wonderful and very open. 866 00:38:15,766 --> 00:38:20,533 And it really enhanced the ability of the characters to... 867 00:38:21,766 --> 00:38:23,866 How would the neighbor react in this situation? 868 00:38:23,966 --> 00:38:26,233 How would the mom and dad feel in this situation? 869 00:38:26,333 --> 00:38:31,000 And just the education on what people are really like, 870 00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:32,533 instead of just guessing. 871 00:38:32,633 --> 00:38:34,600 I think that is acceptance, 872 00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:36,300 that helps acceptance so much. 873 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,566 I think if we educate kids even younger, you know? 874 00:38:39,666 --> 00:38:42,000 Especially about people with differences, 875 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,500 that it will help with accepting 876 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,766 and making everyone feel like they're part of the human race, 877 00:38:47,866 --> 00:38:49,433 'cause they are. - Yeah. 878 00:38:49,533 --> 00:38:50,966 The thing with guessing 879 00:38:51,066 --> 00:38:54,900 is that it's more risky and less risky at the same time. 880 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,666 Because if you just guess as to what somebody is like, 881 00:38:57,766 --> 00:38:59,066 you don't have to risk asking them 882 00:38:59,166 --> 00:39:01,733 and getting it wrong, you know? 883 00:39:01,833 --> 00:39:04,733 But if you guess and you get it wrong, it's worse! 884 00:39:04,833 --> 00:39:05,900 [laughing] 885 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,300 But there's a vulnerability 886 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,533 and a willingness to be awkward with each other, 887 00:39:10,633 --> 00:39:13,900 which I think maybe technology smooths over a bit, 888 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,400 and I'm very pro-awkwardness and... 889 00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:18,566 [laughing] I just... 890 00:39:18,666 --> 00:39:20,100 And I think, I don't know... 891 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,633 I think that theater can kind of help us with these stories 892 00:39:24,733 --> 00:39:26,900 to facilitate these kinds of conversations. 893 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,733 That feels very productive to me. 894 00:39:29,733 --> 00:39:31,233 But, Loryn, what about you? 895 00:39:31,333 --> 00:39:33,600 - So, I worked with little littles, the three-year-olds. 896 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,766 Those were my groups. 897 00:39:36,866 --> 00:39:39,533 I had a sports class with these kids, 898 00:39:39,633 --> 00:39:41,800 and I think this is a good example 899 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:45,833 of just really seeing kids being kids 900 00:39:45,933 --> 00:39:48,066 and little people, really. 901 00:39:49,233 --> 00:39:51,933 I had three boys, all very different, 902 00:39:52,033 --> 00:39:55,900 and two were on the spectrum, 903 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,433 I think one was officially diagnosed, 904 00:39:58,533 --> 00:40:01,266 the other was not and it was, you know... 905 00:40:01,366 --> 00:40:04,333 I mean, they're three, four, you know? 906 00:40:04,433 --> 00:40:06,566 All of 'em don't wanna sit still, 907 00:40:06,666 --> 00:40:11,566 and being able to work within what they needed 908 00:40:11,666 --> 00:40:14,766 and still teach them what I was supposed to be teaching 909 00:40:14,866 --> 00:40:17,866 with, you know, how to hold a hockey stick. 910 00:40:17,966 --> 00:40:20,366 Which I'm gonna be honest, I had to look that up too. 911 00:40:20,466 --> 00:40:22,200 [all laughing] 912 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:23,933 But we couldn't listen to music. 913 00:40:24,033 --> 00:40:25,300 That was part of the thing. 914 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,500 We were supposed to listen to music for every single thing, 915 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,900 and so, I would ask each one, 916 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,733 "How are you feeling today about music?" 917 00:40:30,833 --> 00:40:32,266 If somebody said they could do it, 918 00:40:32,366 --> 00:40:35,066 but we needed to keep it low, then we turned on the music, 919 00:40:35,166 --> 00:40:36,933 we all were quiet and we would, you know, 920 00:40:37,033 --> 00:40:40,666 adjust the music level to make sure that everybody was okay 921 00:40:40,766 --> 00:40:42,600 and nobody needed to cover their ears. 922 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,600 And as soon as you needed to cover your ears, 923 00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:46,200 we turned the music off. 924 00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:49,733 And it just... 925 00:40:49,833 --> 00:40:52,833 Nobody was mad at anybody 926 00:40:52,933 --> 00:40:54,666 for not being able to listen to the music. 927 00:40:54,766 --> 00:40:58,533 Or somebody really wanted to, so we had a discussion. 928 00:40:58,633 --> 00:41:01,900 "Today this song is really important that we listen to it, 929 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,633 "can we just, for this one song? 930 00:41:03,733 --> 00:41:05,666 "And then we don't have to listen to any more?" 931 00:41:05,766 --> 00:41:09,466 Of course, that was what we agreed to and it worked out. 932 00:41:10,566 --> 00:41:12,333 I had one of the parents actually say, 933 00:41:13,333 --> 00:41:15,233 "Nobody has actually gotten him 934 00:41:15,333 --> 00:41:18,033 "to do all of the things that you've been able to do." 935 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,700 I think what it comes down to is listening and adjusting... 936 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,666 I was the one with the most capability and... 937 00:41:31,333 --> 00:41:32,533 I mean, I was the oldest, 938 00:41:32,633 --> 00:41:34,000 I was the maturest, you know, whatever, 939 00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,433 all of those things and I was... 940 00:41:36,533 --> 00:41:38,066 I had to step back, you know? 941 00:41:38,166 --> 00:41:39,733 It wasn't about what I needed. 942 00:41:39,833 --> 00:41:41,600 Like, did I wanna listen to that song today? 943 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:44,366 Maybe I did, but it wasn't what I needed. 944 00:41:44,466 --> 00:41:46,266 It mattered, you know, or, what, 945 00:41:46,366 --> 00:41:48,100 it's what, you know, he needed. 946 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,200 And I think that's a big thing, 947 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:54,766 is being able to take a step back, 948 00:41:54,866 --> 00:41:57,066 meet the person who has the most needs, 949 00:41:57,166 --> 00:42:02,133 and maybe he needs the most representation or what have you, 950 00:42:02,233 --> 00:42:03,866 and let that shine. 951 00:42:03,966 --> 00:42:06,133 Because it's not about you. 952 00:42:06,233 --> 00:42:08,500 It's about the other person. 953 00:42:10,133 --> 00:42:11,433 - Lindsay: Thanks. 954 00:42:11,533 --> 00:42:13,700 All right, any closing thoughts from y'all? 955 00:42:15,366 --> 00:42:16,666 - Lori: Thank you for being here. 956 00:42:16,766 --> 00:42:17,900 [all laughing] 957 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,100 - Kathleen: Thanks for inviting us. 958 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,533 - Thank you everybody for your patience, 959 00:42:20,633 --> 00:42:22,233 for your thoughtfulness, and your attention, 960 00:42:22,333 --> 00:42:24,533 and enjoy the rest of Idea Fest. 961 00:42:24,633 --> 00:42:27,633 [audience applauding]