WEBVTT
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- Welcome to this theater,
the first theater panel,
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the only theater panel at
Cap Times Idea Fest 2019.
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I am your host,
Lindsay Christians,
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I have been writing
about the arts
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for theCap Timessince 2008,
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which is also the year I
graduated from this institution
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with a master's in
theater research,
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so my theater training
comes from here.
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You know, go Badgers!
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So, today, we're gonna be
talking about what happens
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when predominately white,
non-disabled companies
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diversify the stories they tell
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and the artists
that they work with.
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And I'm gonna read you just a
few bios of my panelists
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who are wonderful, and I'm
so glad that you're all here,
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in whatever way you can be.
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Marti Gobel, right
here on the phone,
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is an actor, director,
and teaching artist
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based in Milwaukee.
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She was a resident
teaching artist
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with Renaissance Theaterworks,
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and has performed with
Milwaukee Repertory Theater,
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Next Act Theatre,
Milwaukee Chamber Theatre,
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and many others.
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In Madison, she
directedExit Strategy
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for Forward Theater.
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She starred in Forward's
Skeleton Crewlast season
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and she performed in
No Childwith Theatre LILA
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a few years ago, you saw that.
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She's a proud member of The
Actors' Equity Association
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and the Screen Actors Guild,
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American Federation of
Television and Radio Artists.
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Loryn Jonelis, over here,
is a film and stage actor
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and choreographer
in the Madison area.
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He has appeared on stage
as transgender characters
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in StageQ'sStandards of
Careand cisgender characters
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as inSweet William
at Broom Street Theater
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andThe Mineola Twins
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with Kathie Rasmussen
Women's Theatre.
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He likes sharks, the
color green, and teaching.
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[all laughing]
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Lori Kido Lopez is an
associate professor
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of media and cultural studies
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at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison,
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where she studies race and
representation in the media.
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She studies how women, people
of color, and queer communities
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use media in the fight
for social justice.
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In 2014, Lori founded The
Race and Media Conference.
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She's the author ofAsian
American Media Activism:
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Fighting for Cultural
Citizenshipand co-editor
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ofThe Routledge Companion
to Asian American Media.
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Welcome, Lori.
- Thanks.
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- Kathleen Tissot
here, on my right,
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has been involved
on and off stage
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with various Madison
theater companies
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for the past 20 plus years.
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For 15 of those years, she
was the speech pathologist
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and drama advisor/play
director at Oregon High School.
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There, she developed a
social skills program
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for students on
the autism spectrum
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and strive for inclusivity
in the theater drama program.
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She recently directed
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The Curious Incident of
the Dog in the Night-Time
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for Strollers Theatre, starring
a former student of hers
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who is on the autism spectrum.
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Welcome, Kathleen.
- Thanks.
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- So I wanna start by framing
this discussion a little bit.
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We talk about whose stories
get told, who tells them,
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who is watching and listening,
and within that context,
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diversity can mean a
lot of different things.
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Diversity and inclusion
are not the same,
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just like equality and
equity are not the same.
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So the way I think of it is that
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diversity is a movie
likeThe Help,
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which has this white
savior narrative,
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and inclusion is maybe
a film likeMoonlight,
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where we have a
black gay playwright
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telling this
coming-of-age story.
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To make a theater connection,
diversity isMiss Saigon
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and inclusion is Qui
Nguyen'sVietgone.
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So, to kinda bring it back
to theater a little bit.
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My first question is for Marti.
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Hi, Marti, can you still hear?
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- I am still here.
- Awesome.
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I was hoping that actually
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that you could start
the conversation
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because you do speak about
this pretty frequently,
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about the need for more
diverse representation onstage,
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and you've worked so
extensively here in Wisconsin.
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How do you distinguish between
diversity and inclusion
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in regional theater companies?
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- Marti: Okay, let me say that
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of course we are
working very, very,
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I think, rigorously
to increase diversity
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as far as the
stages in Wisconsin,
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but we have not reached
a point of inclusion
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in my personal opinion.
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And what I mean by that is
that we have diverse stories
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that are being told,
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we have directors that are
telling diverse stories
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and helping to aid in that,
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we certainly have a
diverse talent pool.
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But what we don't
have is inclusion
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in those that are in
positions of power
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or those that are directing
plays that are outside those
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that include diverse
cast and story.
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And so, that's an issue that
I think we need to look at.
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- Yeah, I think I remember
hearing it in the context
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of like when sort of a
classical theater company
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hires an African-American
director to direct something
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that's not an August Wilson
play, that's like a Shakespeare.
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- Yes.
- Yeah.
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- Marti: Shakespeare
is more universal
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and I know that they've
done, at the APT,
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they've done
Our Country's Good,
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but what you're still looking at
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is people that are including
casts of folks of color.
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Not necessarily, we haven't
seen a person of color
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direct, say,Buried Child.
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- Ah, the Sam Shepard play.
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- Marti: Or Sam Shepard
or Tennessee Williams,
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this is the kind of thing
that I'm talking about.
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- Got it, okay.
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Thank you.
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Loryn, you've played
sort of both cisgender
05:21.733 --> 05:23.700 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
and transgender
characters on stage,
05:23.800 --> 05:27.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and I wonder for you, what
are the challenges and rewards
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of playing a character
who may be negotiating
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their gender identity
as a character?
05:35.000 --> 05:36.166 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- Last, I mean...
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When I first played a
transgender character,
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I did not identify as trans,
05:40.266 --> 05:45.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and so, that allowed me
to explore that in myself
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and kind of use that to grow.
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Playing a cisgender character,
that's just kind of,
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I feel like it's what you
want as a trans actor,
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to just be able to
play a character,
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it doesn't matter
if they're male,
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female, transgender or not.
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I mean, it doesn't matter,
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you just wanna
play the character.
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And to play those, I
think that's been the...
06:10.333 --> 06:12.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
I guess, the dream, we'll say.
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'Cause a lot of the times,
06:14.500 --> 06:17.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
you're pegged as just
playing a trans character.
06:18.533 --> 06:20.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I think I feel like I
fit right into like,
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I always play teenage boys.
06:22.566 --> 06:25.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
I'm still like,
between a lot of phases
06:25.533 --> 06:27.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
because I just
started testosterone,
06:27.933 --> 06:29.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
I can't really grow
facial hair yet.
06:30.033 --> 06:31.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Granted, I may never.
06:31.433 --> 06:35.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
So, that's another
issue with how you cast
06:35.900 --> 06:37.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
based on appearance,
06:37.466 --> 06:41.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and I think that has
been the challenge
06:41.366 --> 06:44.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
with that in general.
06:46.066 --> 06:48.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- When you think about what
roles you're going out for,
06:48.400 --> 06:51.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
if you were gonna
be handing your,
06:51.100 --> 06:53.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
I keep thinking CV,
that's the wrong word.
06:53.800 --> 06:54.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But you know, same thing.
06:54.900 --> 06:56.200 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[laughing]
06:56.300 --> 06:58.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I mean, what you wanna
use pronouns on it?
07:00.433 --> 07:05.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- At this point, yes, I
still get misgendered,
07:05.166 --> 07:07.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
so I would wanna use pronouns.
07:07.666 --> 07:11.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But once that stops being
a thing, then I don't care.
07:11.466 --> 07:12.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
For me, at least.
07:13.033 --> 07:16.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And that is also something
that changes person to person,
07:16.666 --> 07:19.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
whether you wanna use
the pronouns or not.
07:19.766 --> 07:20.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Nice, thank you.
07:22.733 --> 07:24.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
Lori, I wanted to talk with you
07:24.766 --> 07:27.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
about what are some
of the pitfalls,
07:27.133 --> 07:29.600 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that when predominately
white organizations
07:29.700 --> 07:31.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
will reach out to
communities of color
07:31.133 --> 07:33.766 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
to wanna involve them.
07:33.866 --> 07:36.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
What are some of the
things that can go wrong
07:36.233 --> 07:38.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and maybe go right
in those situations?
07:38.933 --> 07:41.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- Yeah, I have a couple
of suggestions about that,
07:41.366 --> 07:42.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and since I'm more
of a community member
07:43.066 --> 07:46.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
than a theater professional, I
can speak to that experience.
07:47.033 --> 07:49.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So I think that it's a
great idea to reach out
07:50.000 --> 07:52.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
to community members if
you're putting on a play
07:53.566 --> 07:56.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
that you think will
maybe be controversial
07:56.400 --> 07:59.633 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
or something that you want
to bring more voices in on.
07:59.733 --> 08:01.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And there's some
good ways to do that
08:01.400 --> 08:03.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and some less good
ways to do that.
08:03.800 --> 08:05.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I would say the first
thing to think about
08:05.900 --> 08:08.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
is that if you are inviting
community members in
08:08.333 --> 08:10.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
to do like a talk
back or a program,
08:10.666 --> 08:12.233 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
then you should actually be open
08:12.333 --> 08:14.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
to listening to what
they have to say.
08:14.633 --> 08:17.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
So, this is not the
kind of situation
08:17.166 --> 08:20.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
where you should think
about being controlling
08:20.133 --> 08:21.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
or limiting what
they're gonna say,
08:22.033 --> 08:24.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
because, you know, the reality
is you're bringing them in
08:24.633 --> 08:26.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
to do some critical work
08:26.233 --> 08:27.900 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
or to challenge
what's been going on.
08:28.000 --> 08:29.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
If there wasn't a problem,
08:29.433 --> 08:31.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
you probably wouldn't have
invited them in the first place.
08:31.633 --> 08:34.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
So, actually being
open to listening
08:34.133 --> 08:35.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
to what they have to say
08:35.400 --> 08:37.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and respecting what
people have to say,
08:37.366 --> 08:40.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
if you do that work of
inviting them into your space.
08:41.300 --> 08:43.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I also think that, you
know, this happens a lot
08:43.666 --> 08:46.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
when a theater group
is putting on something
08:46.166 --> 08:48.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
that they think that people
might be upset about,
08:48.566 --> 08:52.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but that a lot of groundwork
could happen proactively
08:52.466 --> 08:53.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
before that happens.
08:54.000 --> 08:56.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
So instead of waiting
until you are afraid
08:57.066 --> 08:59.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that somebody from the
community might be upset,
08:59.466 --> 09:01.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
actually proactively
building relationships
09:01.733 --> 09:03.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
in minority communities,
09:03.200 --> 09:06.100 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
thinking about who is not
already not being represented,
09:06.200 --> 09:08.100 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
or whose voices
are being left out,
09:08.200 --> 09:09.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
thinking about how
that makes them feel
09:09.633 --> 09:10.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and how you can reach out
09:10.966 --> 09:12.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and make sure they are
part of your community.
09:13.000 --> 09:15.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And that you know
who these people are
09:15.400 --> 09:18.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and that you have meaningful
connections with them
09:18.266 --> 09:19.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
before a crisis comes up,
09:19.933 --> 09:21.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and then all the sudden,
you're turning to them
09:21.733 --> 09:23.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
to solve a problem for you.
09:23.500 --> 09:25.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
That's not the best
relationship to have,
09:25.933 --> 09:28.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
if that's at all possible.
09:29.000 --> 09:31.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And then I think it's also
just important to remember
09:31.800 --> 09:34.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that these people that
you are calling in
09:34.266 --> 09:37.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
to do this kind of work, it
can be really hard labor.
09:37.200 --> 09:41.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
It's difficult intellectual
labor and emotional labor.
09:41.166 --> 09:43.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
People of color and people
of other minority backgrounds
09:43.466 --> 09:46.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
spend their entire lives being
expected to educate people
09:46.300 --> 09:48.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
about their experiences
and their struggles
09:48.533 --> 09:51.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and all the things that
they should know about them.
09:51.500 --> 09:52.833 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
And that's really difficult work
09:52.933 --> 09:54.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that is often uncompensated.
09:55.733 --> 09:57.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
So, just recognizing
that a lot of people
09:57.400 --> 10:00.500 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
might not be interested in
doing that kind of labor for you
10:00.600 --> 10:02.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and to keep trying.
10:02.266 --> 10:05.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
There are lots of people who
are very eager and willing
10:05.300 --> 10:09.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
to be ambassadors and educators
and do that kind of work.
10:09.800 --> 10:10.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
So, it's just about knowing
10:11.066 --> 10:13.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that you may encounter
that kind of response,
10:13.800 --> 10:17.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
but to not let
that make you feel
10:17.133 --> 10:18.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
like you should give
up on the enterprise.
10:18.766 --> 10:22.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And then also to think
about how white people
10:22.266 --> 10:24.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and people of other
majority identities
10:24.633 --> 10:26.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and privileged identities,
should also be always working
10:26.866 --> 10:29.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
to educate themselves,
also proactively.
10:29.300 --> 10:32.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
And not just kind of
sitting back and waiting
10:32.100 --> 10:34.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
for someone to come
and educate you,
10:34.500 --> 10:37.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
but to do that work
of educating yourself
10:37.533 --> 10:39.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and trying to put yourself
in the best position
10:39.666 --> 10:41.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
to be more open and receptive
10:41.400 --> 10:44.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
to whatever it is that
you will continue learning
10:44.266 --> 10:47.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
once you're actually engaging
with people of color.
10:47.400 --> 10:49.100 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- Thank you.
- Yeah.
10:49.200 --> 10:53.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- Kathleen, my question for
you is aboutCurious Incident
10:53.533 --> 10:56.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and working with the young
performer that you did,
10:57.200 --> 10:59.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
I wonder if you could just
frame that a little bit
10:59.433 --> 11:02.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and talk about why that
project was important to you?
11:03.600 --> 11:05.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
-Curious Incident
was important to me
11:05.233 --> 11:06.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
on many, many levels.
11:08.233 --> 11:11.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
My career has been
in speech pathology,
11:11.966 --> 11:14.400 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
which deals frequently with kids
11:14.500 --> 11:16.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
with social skills on
the autism spectrum,
11:16.466 --> 11:18.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and that goes way back.
11:18.466 --> 11:20.633 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
My nine-year-old
grandson has autism.
11:22.166 --> 11:23.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I have some of...
11:23.433 --> 11:24.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
The people that...
11:24.666 --> 11:26.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
The best people I've
worked with have autism.
11:26.333 --> 11:27.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
So, it had a lot of things.
11:27.800 --> 11:29.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And the thing about the
play that attracted me,
11:29.633 --> 11:32.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
was that it has a
very hopeful ending.
11:32.666 --> 11:36.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
He says, "I did this and this
and this and this and this.
11:36.200 --> 11:38.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
"That means I can
do anything, right?"
11:38.900 --> 11:40.633 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
And she doesn't
really answer him,
11:40.733 --> 11:41.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
but you get the feeling
11:41.933 --> 11:43.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
like he really believes
he can do anything,
11:43.633 --> 11:44.733 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
which is the coolest thing
11:44.833 --> 11:46.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
that you can possibly
hope for somebody.
11:46.766 --> 11:48.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Okay, that's one reason.
11:48.733 --> 11:51.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
And the second one
was I knew early on,
11:51.400 --> 11:52.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
once I knew I was
gonna direct it,
11:53.000 --> 11:56.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
that I wanted to,
if at all possible,
11:56.600 --> 11:58.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I wanted to have somebody
on the autism spectrum.
11:58.566 --> 12:04.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
I know a lot of people who
have that neurodifference,
12:06.600 --> 12:08.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
but Peyton was a
former student of mine.
12:08.666 --> 12:11.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
He was in the last play
that I directed at Oregon,
12:11.200 --> 12:12.966 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
and he's a very
talented young man
12:13.066 --> 12:14.433 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
with a great
interest in theater.
12:14.533 --> 12:17.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
He wanted to go to college
and major in theater.
12:17.166 --> 12:19.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So, when this came up,
12:19.333 --> 12:21.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I contacted him and a couple
other people that I knew
12:21.766 --> 12:24.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and I auditioned them,
way, way ahead of time.
12:24.433 --> 12:27.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And Peyton was the choice.
12:27.866 --> 12:30.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
If Peyton had not
been in the picture,
12:30.400 --> 12:31.600 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and I just auditioned
12:31.700 --> 12:33.633 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
these other couple
people that I had,
12:34.633 --> 12:36.466 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I think I might have
gone a different route,
12:36.566 --> 12:39.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
which is, you know, maybe...
12:40.800 --> 12:41.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I would have used it more
12:42.000 --> 12:43.366 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
as a consulting
and learning thing.
12:43.466 --> 12:46.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But it was important for
me to try to find somebody,
12:46.666 --> 12:47.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
a first choice.
12:47.833 --> 12:49.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- Lindsay: Ah, I see.
12:50.466 --> 12:53.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
- And Peyton was just the
right person for that role,
12:53.866 --> 12:55.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
he really was, so.
12:55.200 --> 12:56.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Lindsay: It took
him a little longer
12:56.800 --> 12:58.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
to get ready for it, right?
12:58.100 --> 12:59.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
Like he took extra
time to prepare?
12:59.666 --> 13:04.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
- Actually, I thought it
might, because I auditioned him
13:04.533 --> 13:06.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
probably nine months
before anybody else.
13:06.300 --> 13:07.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Lindsay: Oh, wow.
13:07.566 --> 13:09.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- Thinking that way he
could learn the role,
13:10.033 --> 13:11.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
like could do all this stuff,
13:11.466 --> 13:14.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
he didn't even look at the
script until after it was cast.
13:14.133 --> 13:15.033 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[laughing]
13:15.133 --> 13:16.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And I was like "Peyton!"
13:17.900 --> 13:19.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
He has a lot of--
13:19.400 --> 13:21.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
He has a really good ability
to learn things quickly,
13:22.000 --> 13:24.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
he's the first one off book,
he's the first one all that,
13:24.400 --> 13:27.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
but I wanted to make
sure that he knew
13:27.466 --> 13:30.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
and had time to
adjust if he needed.
13:30.133 --> 13:31.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
He's very self-aware,
13:32.800 --> 13:35.700 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
and when you cast somebody
in a role like that,
13:35.800 --> 13:37.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I think it's very
helpful to have someone
13:37.600 --> 13:40.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
who is able to follow
direction and be self-aware
13:40.866 --> 13:43.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and not everybody is,
everybody's different.
13:43.333 --> 13:44.600 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
And you have to...
13:44.700 --> 13:46.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
Everybody is a person,
13:46.100 --> 13:47.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and everyone's got a
different background
13:47.433 --> 13:48.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and abilities and all that.
13:48.566 --> 13:51.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And when you're putting
a show together,
13:51.166 --> 13:53.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
you do need to have
certain things,
13:53.466 --> 13:55.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
like can the person
follow directions?
13:55.666 --> 13:58.900 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
Can the person
have self-awareness
13:59.000 --> 14:00.266 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
to be able to introspective
14:00.366 --> 14:02.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and see how they're different
from this character?
14:02.133 --> 14:05.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And Peyton is very definitely
different from the character,
14:06.900 --> 14:09.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
but he didn't need the
time after all, he just...
14:09.666 --> 14:11.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- That's so great.
- He's awesome.
14:11.900 --> 14:14.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- So, Marti, I have
a question for you.
14:15.400 --> 14:17.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- Marti: I would
love to have it.
14:18.066 --> 14:19.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
[all laughing]
14:20.733 --> 14:23.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- What are the barriers to
regional theaters producing
14:23.466 --> 14:27.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
more stories that are by,
about, and for people of color
14:27.333 --> 14:30.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
and maybe what are some of the
techniques that have worked?
14:31.633 --> 14:34.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- Marti: I think the
major barrier for me
14:34.133 --> 14:35.966 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
is I'm kind of
wading through this,
14:36.066 --> 14:38.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
both as a director
and as an actor,
14:38.533 --> 14:45.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
is that in order to
competently show stories
14:45.966 --> 14:47.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
that are including
people of color,
14:47.833 --> 14:51.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
they need to be able
to have cut their teeth
14:51.266 --> 14:54.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
on other lead roles.
14:54.300 --> 14:56.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So that you can't just
have them come out
14:56.800 --> 14:58.633 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and play a lead role
for the first time
14:58.733 --> 15:02.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
after doing years and years
and years of supporting roles
15:02.133 --> 15:04.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
in shows that aren't
necessarily designed
15:04.766 --> 15:07.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
to represent people
of color on stage.
15:07.600 --> 15:09.466 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
So then it begins
to be a problem
15:09.566 --> 15:14.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
when it dominoes to the
point where you have actors
15:14.500 --> 15:18.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
that haven't been given the
opportunity to take lead.
15:18.433 --> 15:22.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
And so, I think the
answer to that is twofold,
15:22.533 --> 15:26.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that we need to be including
also in Shakespeare,
15:26.233 --> 15:28.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
actors that are
given lead roles,
15:28.533 --> 15:30.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
so that when they
step into roles
15:31.600 --> 15:36.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that require them to hold
a role in a leading way,
15:37.466 --> 15:38.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that they are properly
trained and prepared
15:38.900 --> 15:41.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and have the muscles
in order to do that.
15:43.033 --> 15:46.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
We need more people
of color in power,
15:47.000 --> 15:49.166 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
so that they're
selecting these shows,
15:49.266 --> 15:51.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
so that they're
hiring directors,
15:51.366 --> 15:54.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
so that they're making
sure that rooms,
15:54.366 --> 15:57.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
which we have a serious
problem with this in Wisconsin,
15:57.800 --> 15:59.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
are not just echo chambers.
16:00.000 --> 16:02.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
It's not enough to
just voice your support
16:02.633 --> 16:03.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
for other communities,
16:04.033 --> 16:06.366 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
it's important to also
be involved in them.
16:06.466 --> 16:09.900 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And that, getting back to
your question about inclusion.
16:10.000 --> 16:11.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
So, right now, Wisconsin,
16:13.133 --> 16:15.666 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
at the upper levels
concerning theater,
16:17.400 --> 16:19.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
is pretty much operating
in an echo chamber,
16:19.433 --> 16:20.966 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
to me, in my opinion.
16:22.633 --> 16:25.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
So I think we need to
get outta that chamber.
16:25.133 --> 16:29.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
- Yeah, I'm nodding, you can't
see me nod but thank you.
16:31.366 --> 16:34.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I wonder if there are
examples of companies
16:34.166 --> 16:38.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that you think are doing
this work in productive
16:38.566 --> 16:40.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and helpful ways that
maybe could offer,
16:40.833 --> 16:42.633 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
whether they're in
Wisconsin or not.
16:43.633 --> 16:44.966 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- Marti: No.
16:45.966 --> 16:47.933 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- All right.
[laughing]
16:48.033 --> 16:49.266 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- Marti: Yeah, I mean,
16:49.366 --> 16:50.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and I work with all
of these companies
16:51.033 --> 16:53.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and many of them are
my dear, dear friends,
16:53.533 --> 16:55.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and I see all this.
16:55.333 --> 16:59.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
But if you can name for me one
theater company in Wisconsin
16:59.533 --> 17:04.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that has a person of color in
administration, introduction,
17:05.866 --> 17:10.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
and in artistic decision-making,
then, please, correct me.
17:12.133 --> 17:13.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- Yeah, I can't.
17:14.600 --> 17:15.766 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
Thank you.
17:16.766 --> 17:18.933 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Lori, I actually wanted to
ask you a little bit about
17:19.033 --> 17:22.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
like how power differentials
play a role in programming,
17:22.700 --> 17:24.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
'cause I think that
it has a nice overlap
17:24.500 --> 17:26.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
to your work with media
17:26.200 --> 17:28.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
and how we see
representation in media.
17:28.533 --> 17:32.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And I wonder if you can
speak maybe briefly to
17:32.100 --> 17:34.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
how implicit bias
can function in that?
17:34.900 --> 17:36.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Yeah, absolutely.
17:36.433 --> 17:39.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
So when we talk
about implicit bias,
17:39.133 --> 17:42.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
we mean the distinction
between explicit bias,
17:42.800 --> 17:45.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
so racism where someone
actually believes
17:45.533 --> 17:48.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that people of color are
inferior to white people
17:48.400 --> 17:50.200 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
or have some sort
of racial hatred,
17:50.300 --> 17:52.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that would be explicit bias.
17:52.300 --> 17:54.500 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
But implicit bias
is just what we get
17:54.600 --> 17:56.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
from living in this world
17:56.500 --> 17:58.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
where we consume
the media that we do
17:58.366 --> 18:00.400 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and go through the education
system that we have
18:00.500 --> 18:03.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and are exposed to kind
of theater that we have.
18:03.233 --> 18:07.000 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And all those things do give
us racialized ways of thinking,
18:07.100 --> 18:09.400 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and we may believe
that we are not racist,
18:09.500 --> 18:14.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and we may believe that we
are trying to act in a way
18:14.100 --> 18:15.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
that promotes racial equality,
18:15.700 --> 18:17.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
but we still have
these implicit biases,
18:18.000 --> 18:20.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and those show up in
much more subtle ways.
18:20.900 --> 18:23.266 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
So it impacts decisions like
18:23.366 --> 18:25.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
what plays people
choose to put on,
18:25.966 --> 18:27.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
where if you look at two plays
18:27.566 --> 18:29.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and one's written
by a person of color
18:29.166 --> 18:30.700 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and one was written
by a white person,
18:30.800 --> 18:33.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
you might not say, "Oh, well,
the one by the person of color
18:33.800 --> 18:36.300 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
"is bad because it's written
by a person of color."
18:36.400 --> 18:38.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
But I might be like,
"Oh, I don't know.
18:38.300 --> 18:39.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
"I don't like it as much,
18:39.833 --> 18:42.200 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
like I feel like it's
just not quite there yet."
18:42.300 --> 18:43.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
And the same thing
can happen for casting
18:44.066 --> 18:46.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
when you're comparing people
of different backgrounds,
18:46.900 --> 18:48.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and it's just like a
slight hint of like,
18:48.800 --> 18:50.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
"Well, they seem
less experienced,
18:50.633 --> 18:53.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
"I may give them like a little
bit less benefit of the doubt,
18:55.266 --> 18:57.266 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
"and I'm not exactly sure
how they'll handle this."
18:57.366 --> 18:59.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And then, I also think
it goes on the other side
18:59.600 --> 19:05.733 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
to how audiences are viewing
productions and art and media
19:05.833 --> 19:07.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
where they also have
like a little bit,
19:08.033 --> 19:11.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
like a slight bit of suspicion
or a slight bit of dislike,
19:11.300 --> 19:13.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and it's just kind
of nudging them
19:13.533 --> 19:15.066 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
a little bit in a negative way.
19:15.166 --> 19:18.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And that is an extra obstacle
that we have to overcome,
19:19.000 --> 19:20.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
and it's even harder to overcome
19:20.700 --> 19:22.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
because we're not aware of it,
19:22.200 --> 19:26.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and because it's not
as obvious and overt,
19:26.433 --> 19:31.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but those little nudges still
add up to slow down progress.
19:32.766 --> 19:34.000 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- Thank you.
19:35.066 --> 19:37.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Loryn, I was curious,
what kinds of,
19:37.533 --> 19:38.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
kind of in the same vein,
19:38.933 --> 19:40.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
like what kind of stories
you see being told
19:40.800 --> 19:42.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
about trans characters,
and what kind of stories
19:42.966 --> 19:45.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
you'd like to see more of?
19:45.133 --> 19:47.266 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
- I don't see a
whole lot of stories
19:47.366 --> 19:49.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
about transgender characters.
19:49.733 --> 19:52.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I mean, obviously like
Orange is the New Black,
19:52.200 --> 19:55.633 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
yes, there was a
very good storyline
19:55.733 --> 19:57.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
about a transgender woman.
19:57.666 --> 20:01.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
And honestly, that's
often that you see stories
20:01.600 --> 20:05.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
about transgender women, not
necessarily transgender men.
20:05.133 --> 20:06.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And there was an article,
20:06.966 --> 20:10.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and I wish I had like, the
citations for that article
20:10.800 --> 20:12.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that I read, 'cause I've
referenced it several times
20:13.066 --> 20:15.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and just can't remember
where I found it.
20:16.466 --> 20:20.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
It talked about
being raised male,
20:20.933 --> 20:23.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
you're given all
of those privileges
20:23.700 --> 20:27.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
that males have in our society.
20:27.533 --> 20:30.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
You're more likely to
speak and step forward,
20:30.333 --> 20:32.033 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
whereas if you
are raised female,
20:32.133 --> 20:34.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
like a transgender
male would be,
20:34.166 --> 20:35.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
you still kinda hang back.
20:35.666 --> 20:39.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And being raised female,
you're taught to be quieter,
20:39.533 --> 20:44.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
more reserved, so I wonder
if that plays into the fact
20:44.433 --> 20:47.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that you see more stories
about transgender women
20:47.100 --> 20:48.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
than you do about
transgender men.
20:48.966 --> 20:56.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And the few I have seen
end in their murder,
20:56.333 --> 21:00.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
they're sexually assaulted
all over TV likeSVU.
21:00.166 --> 21:02.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I loveLaw & Order: SVU,
21:02.800 --> 21:05.733 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
but it is not great for
transgender storylines.
21:07.633 --> 21:11.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
It kinda plays into somebody
was tricked into a date
21:11.300 --> 21:13.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
with a man and now
they think they're gay
21:13.166 --> 21:14.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
so they're gonna
kill the person.
21:14.800 --> 21:17.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
It's like, that's
really not how it works,
21:17.333 --> 21:19.633 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
and the TV show
doesn't do a great job
21:19.733 --> 21:21.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
of talking about that either.
21:22.433 --> 21:25.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
But storylines I would
like to see are just...
21:25.200 --> 21:29.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I work in a restaurant,
that's where I make my money.
21:29.166 --> 21:31.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
Why isn't there just a
transgender character
21:31.200 --> 21:32.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
who's a bartender?
21:32.433 --> 21:34.666 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
Or a host?
21:34.766 --> 21:37.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Or the flight attendant?
21:38.600 --> 21:43.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Just normalize being
transgender, 'cause it's normal.
21:43.200 --> 21:45.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
Yes, I get a shot every week,
21:45.800 --> 21:48.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
some days I wear a
binder, some days I don't.
21:48.633 --> 21:49.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
Let's talk about that,
21:49.900 --> 21:52.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
let's just show that
in somebody's life.
21:52.233 --> 21:58.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And I got an audition casting
notice forThe L Wordreboot,
21:59.000 --> 22:02.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and it was specifically said
they wanted a trans male
22:02.333 --> 22:04.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
who was well into
their transition.
22:05.733 --> 22:07.800 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I don't know what exactly
they wanted by that,
22:07.900 --> 22:11.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but you can't really, I mean,
well into your transition?
22:11.133 --> 22:13.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I feel like I am well
into my transition.
22:13.400 --> 22:18.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
I've identified as a trans
male for three, four years,
22:19.800 --> 22:21.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I haven't been medically
transitioning for that long,
22:21.966 --> 22:23.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
so I feel like
that's something that
22:23.933 --> 22:28.366 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
needs to be taken out of things
like that, because I am trans,
22:28.466 --> 22:30.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and it doesn't matter how
long I've identified this,
22:30.633 --> 22:32.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I'm well into my transition.
22:32.766 --> 22:36.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And so, again, I think
just seeing people
22:36.133 --> 22:39.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
who haven't had top surgery, who
maybe even aren't on hormones
22:39.566 --> 22:43.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
but they're identifying
how they identify.
22:43.766 --> 22:46.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
That kinda takes
that out of question,
22:46.700 --> 22:50.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and really, it gives
you a better idea
22:50.200 --> 22:53.000 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
of who the trans community is.
22:53.100 --> 22:55.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- It seems to me like
you're talking about
22:55.433 --> 22:57.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
moving the conversation
from like being all about
22:57.566 --> 22:58.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
like identity and
how you identify,
22:59.066 --> 23:02.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
to making it part of
character development
23:02.133 --> 23:03.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
with other larger stories.
23:03.866 --> 23:04.933 align:left position:42.5% line:71% size:47.5%
- Sure.
- Yeah.
23:05.033 --> 23:06.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
- Put it everywhere, really.
23:06.266 --> 23:10.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I mean, I honestly have
never had a question.
23:10.333 --> 23:12.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
One of the things in
the trans community
23:12.666 --> 23:14.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
you don't wanna be asked,
there are certain questions.
23:14.733 --> 23:17.166 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I've never been asked those,
23:17.266 --> 23:21.033 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
because I think everybody is
so scared to ask questions.
23:22.333 --> 23:24.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
Yeah, you may say
something that--
23:24.400 --> 23:26.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
the question may be
somewhat offensive,
23:26.133 --> 23:28.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
but I'm not gonna
snap at you about it,
23:28.133 --> 23:30.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I'm gonna be like, "Okay,
so, I'm gonna answer this.
23:30.133 --> 23:32.233 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"But probably phrase it
differently next time
23:32.333 --> 23:33.800 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
"if you need to
ask somebody else."
23:35.066 --> 23:37.600 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
No, it is not my job to educate,
23:37.700 --> 23:39.733 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
but I'm always happy to educate.
23:39.833 --> 23:42.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I want people to
accept other people,
23:42.966 --> 23:47.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and if me telling my story
of being a trans man,
23:47.966 --> 23:51.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
if that helps somebody
understand their granddaughter
23:51.433 --> 23:56.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
or grandson or their best
friend, that means more to me
23:56.433 --> 24:00.300 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
than keeping certain
parts of myself private.
24:00.400 --> 24:04.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
So, I'd like to see, yeah,
character development
24:05.000 --> 24:07.433 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
with just people being people.
24:07.533 --> 24:09.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- That sounds like some
significant emotional labor.
24:09.633 --> 24:12.600 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
So, just wanna say
thank you for that.
24:14.066 --> 24:16.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
Kathleen, I was wondering if
you could talk a little bit
24:16.633 --> 24:18.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
about your work with students
24:18.433 --> 24:21.466 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and how you empower
particular students
24:21.566 --> 24:23.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
who may be neuroatypical,
24:23.300 --> 24:26.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
or be working with
other intellectual
24:26.300 --> 24:28.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
or other kinds of disabilities?
24:28.900 --> 24:31.133 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
How do you empower them
through theater,
24:31.233 --> 24:33.766 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and potentially what our
community and regional theaters
24:33.866 --> 24:35.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
could learn from that?
24:37.500 --> 24:40.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Well, first thing
is people are people,
24:40.100 --> 24:42.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and they need to be
treated as a person,
24:42.200 --> 24:46.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
not as their disability
or their presentation.
24:49.466 --> 24:52.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
Like Loryn was just alluding
to, just being people.
24:53.466 --> 24:56.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And early on, when I started
working at the high school,
24:58.033 --> 25:02.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I took on the drama club and
I was doing special ed stuff,
25:02.733 --> 25:05.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and I did this play called
The Boys Next Door.
25:05.666 --> 25:08.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
And it was important
to me to do that play
25:08.433 --> 25:11.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
because at the time, the
special ed department
25:11.433 --> 25:14.666 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
was kind of like relegated
to this little thing.
25:14.766 --> 25:16.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So I thought it was an
important story to tell
25:16.766 --> 25:19.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
about this group of men
who lived in a group home.
25:19.633 --> 25:22.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
And when I auditioned the play,
25:22.300 --> 25:25.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
I didn't know a lot
about who was available.
25:25.933 --> 25:29.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And there was one young man
who was learning disabled,
25:29.266 --> 25:31.566 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but that was the only one who
auditioned who was like that.
25:31.666 --> 25:36.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
So I decided, "Well, this
cast needs to know people
25:36.533 --> 25:40.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"who have what they're
trying to portray,"
25:40.133 --> 25:41.400 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
so I arranged a scrimmage
25:41.500 --> 25:43.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
with the Special
Olympics basketball team.
25:43.666 --> 25:47.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And we developed relationship
with the Special Olympians,
25:47.766 --> 25:54.133 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and that, just that, even if
we hadn't performed, was huge.
25:54.233 --> 25:56.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And it was probably one of
the better attended plays
25:56.700 --> 25:59.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that ever happened for
the ones that I directed.
26:01.933 --> 26:05.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So it was inclusion of
getting to know people
26:05.633 --> 26:08.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
that are different than you
and seeing that you know what?
26:08.433 --> 26:09.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
It's not a caricature,
26:09.666 --> 26:12.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
you're not up there
acting like, "Oh."
26:12.233 --> 26:16.233 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
You know, something
wrong, that's not real,
26:16.333 --> 26:17.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and it brings an
authenticity to it,
26:18.066 --> 26:19.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
so that was early on.
26:19.233 --> 26:21.966 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And then as time
went on, there was...
26:22.066 --> 26:23.566 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I had students that,
26:24.966 --> 26:28.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
whatever they wanted to
audition for, whatever part,
26:28.500 --> 26:29.566 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
that was fine.
26:29.666 --> 26:32.933 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
So I had people
auditioning for parts,
26:33.033 --> 26:35.566 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
like trans men and trans women.
26:36.666 --> 26:37.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
They were, they were--
26:38.000 --> 26:40.166 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And they were just part of
it, they were just people.
26:40.266 --> 26:41.633 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
And then later
on, when I started
26:41.733 --> 26:43.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
the social skills class
at the high school,
26:45.066 --> 26:47.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Peyton was a early student,
not in social skills,
26:47.700 --> 26:52.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
but he was an early
student of mine in speech,
26:52.233 --> 26:54.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and he needed social
skills training.
26:54.866 --> 26:59.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And he was so special, I
decided, "You know what?
26:59.400 --> 27:01.366 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
"You'd be better
off in drama club."
27:01.466 --> 27:04.066 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And so, he was dismissed
from special ed services
27:04.166 --> 27:06.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and put in drama club,
and he blossomed.
27:06.900 --> 27:09.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
He was given the opportunity,
he was treated like a person,
27:09.333 --> 27:11.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
he was accepted by the group.
27:11.700 --> 27:12.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I always told the kids,
27:12.900 --> 27:14.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"The drama kids are the
nice kids in school.
27:14.966 --> 27:16.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"If you're not nice,
you don't stay."
27:16.833 --> 27:21.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And it was true, the entire
time I was there, that was true.
27:21.100 --> 27:23.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And so, you treat
people as people,
27:23.900 --> 27:27.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
and you don't give them like...
27:27.933 --> 27:31.066 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
It's like, "Oh, I need someone
in my cast who's disabled,
27:31.166 --> 27:32.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
how can I fit them in?"
27:32.966 --> 27:37.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
No, if they have an interest
and they are good for the part,
27:37.166 --> 27:38.566 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
hey, why not?
27:38.666 --> 27:40.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And so, that was
just the atmosphere.
27:40.766 --> 27:42.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- It's interesting
that you mentioned that
27:42.233 --> 27:44.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
when you first cast Peyton
inCurious Incident,
27:44.966 --> 27:47.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
you didn't say like,
"If I can't find someone
27:47.866 --> 27:50.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"who's neuroatypical
to play this character,
27:50.866 --> 27:52.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"I won't do the play."
27:53.366 --> 27:55.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
And that makes me think about...
27:56.933 --> 27:58.433 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
To me, there are these
kind of separate,
27:58.533 --> 28:02.633 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
almost separate buckets of like
how we cast and the stories,
28:02.733 --> 28:05.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
and how we perform the stories,
28:05.133 --> 28:07.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
because if we say we
can only be writing
28:07.366 --> 28:09.500 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
or performing stories that are
true to our own experience,
28:09.600 --> 28:12.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
that limits us in ways
that makes me a little sad.
28:13.833 --> 28:17.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
But at the same time, there is
a huge issue of who gets cast
28:18.033 --> 28:19.433 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and who gets work.
28:19.533 --> 28:22.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And as Marti was saying
before, who is in power?
28:22.600 --> 28:24.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Who's in administration?
28:24.333 --> 28:25.800 align:left position:40% line:71% size:50%
And so,--
- Marti: Amen.
28:25.900 --> 28:27.900 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
[all laughing]
28:28.000 --> 28:32.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- But I wonder, we sort of
often talk about this idea of,
28:33.433 --> 28:34.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
you'll hear actors say,
28:34.666 --> 28:36.900 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"I should be able to
play anything," right?
28:37.000 --> 28:40.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"Because my job as an
actor is to be creative,
28:40.333 --> 28:43.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"is to imagine myself
as someone who I'm not."
28:43.366 --> 28:45.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
But if they're aligned for you,
28:46.033 --> 28:48.033 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and I guess that's sort
of a question for anybody,
28:48.133 --> 28:50.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
but I wonder like Marti, is
there a line for you
28:50.800 --> 28:51.900 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
in terms of--
28:52.000 --> 28:53.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- Marti: Absolutely,
there's a line,
28:53.366 --> 28:55.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and I'm way more
conservative on this issue
28:55.766 --> 28:58.033 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
than people actually calculate.
28:58.133 --> 29:00.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
There is a difference
between colorblind casting
29:00.833 --> 29:03.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and nontraditional casting.
29:03.300 --> 29:07.533 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
You cannot blindly do anything;
someone will get hurt.
29:07.633 --> 29:09.066 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
You just can't.
29:09.166 --> 29:11.400 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
And this is a
situation where, again,
29:11.500 --> 29:13.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
if we're not operating
in an echo chamber,
29:13.566 --> 29:15.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
then you have somebody that
will say, "Wait a minute,
29:15.700 --> 29:17.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"you can't do that."
29:17.366 --> 29:18.700 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
Instead of convincing yourself
29:18.800 --> 29:22.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
that something is
appropriate or passable.
29:22.666 --> 29:25.233 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
So, to begin with
the definition,
29:25.333 --> 29:26.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
colorblind casting is,
29:26.933 --> 29:31.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
I think, just wildly going
out there and casting whoever
29:31.133 --> 29:33.200 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and however people
wanna do things.
29:34.533 --> 29:38.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I, for instance, am not
interested, and I'm surprised...
29:38.400 --> 29:40.566 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I usually offend somebody
in this amount of time,
29:40.666 --> 29:42.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
so good Lord, here we go.
29:42.333 --> 29:45.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
If I'm not interested in
seeing a Hispanic father
29:45.633 --> 29:49.166 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
married to an Asian woman
with their black child,
29:49.266 --> 29:50.833 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
that is not...
29:50.933 --> 29:52.000 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
[laughing wryly]
29:52.100 --> 29:54.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Unless it's set up to
be that this is a family
29:54.366 --> 29:56.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
that was blended in
some creative ways.
29:56.666 --> 29:59.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I have a family that has
come together in that way.
29:59.933 --> 30:01.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
But if you're trying to tell me
30:01.433 --> 30:03.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
that this family
is how it started
30:03.800 --> 30:05.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and was come together
in a traditional way,
30:05.633 --> 30:08.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
then I'm immediately
out of the story.
30:08.100 --> 30:09.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
30:09.266 --> 30:11.000 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- Marti: If you wanna
take people and put,
30:11.100 --> 30:12.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
take a, say, a
Tennessee Williams play,
30:12.833 --> 30:15.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
who happens to be one of
my favorite playwrights,
30:15.100 --> 30:18.466 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and you wanna cast that with
an all African-American cast,
30:18.566 --> 30:21.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
for the most part, that
is absolutely possible,
30:21.566 --> 30:23.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
without changing the language.
30:23.433 --> 30:25.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
But then you have to track
it all the way through.
30:25.900 --> 30:28.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And that's the difference
between colorblind casting
30:28.933 --> 30:30.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and nontraditional casts.
30:31.633 --> 30:36.200 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
If you have someone that is
pretending to be another race,
30:36.300 --> 30:40.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
fully and totally,
it becomes offensive.
30:40.233 --> 30:42.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
It becomes offensive
to a lot of people.
30:42.966 --> 30:46.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
If you have someone
that is being an actor,
30:47.000 --> 30:51.366 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
that is doing a mimic
or heightened mimicry
30:51.466 --> 30:54.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
of another person for
the betterment of a play,
30:54.333 --> 30:56.833 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
sayNo Child...,that's
a different thing.
30:56.933 --> 30:59.433 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I never at one point in time
tried to let anybody think
30:59.533 --> 31:01.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
that I was anything
but a black woman,
31:01.666 --> 31:05.100 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
who was voicing for Latinx
31:05.200 --> 31:08.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
or who was voicing
for Asian people.
31:08.666 --> 31:10.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
When you have somebody
that steps into a role
31:10.633 --> 31:13.700 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and pretends to be another
race, it's highly offensive.
31:13.800 --> 31:17.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
We've had a huge discussion
on this recently,
31:17.133 --> 31:21.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and I thought it was
fascinating that no one...
31:21.900 --> 31:22.966 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[scoffing]
31:23.066 --> 31:26.300 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
No one wanted
to address the fact
31:26.400 --> 31:29.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
that A, it was a bad
decision to begin with,
31:29.866 --> 31:32.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and B, there are
particular plays
31:32.366 --> 31:34.133 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
that need to be
put on the shelf.
31:34.233 --> 31:37.166 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
There are literally
thousands of plays.
31:37.266 --> 31:40.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I am not interested in
seeingLend Me a Tenor.
31:40.300 --> 31:41.600 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
And there were a lot of people
31:41.700 --> 31:43.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that voiced their opinions on
what went on
31:43.300 --> 31:44.800 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
with the particular situation
that happened,
31:44.900 --> 31:46.933 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
not only here, but in Missouri.
31:47.033 --> 31:50.433 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But this is one of those
when you're even referenced,
31:50.533 --> 31:52.033 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
in regards to the
use of the word,
31:52.133 --> 31:54.166 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
particular words that
we don't like to hear.
31:54.266 --> 31:56.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
Some people just
don't get a vote.
31:57.433 --> 32:00.066 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And if you're Caucasian
and you're watching a play
32:00.166 --> 32:01.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and you're like, "I
think it's a good idea,
32:02.066 --> 32:03.166 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"I think it was fine."
32:03.266 --> 32:04.400 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
Guess what?
32:04.500 --> 32:05.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
You're not the one
that's offended.
32:06.933 --> 32:10.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
You're immediately
have a less stake
32:10.133 --> 32:13.000 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
in what's being represented
on stage than I do.
32:14.000 --> 32:15.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
On this particular...
32:15.600 --> 32:17.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
In this particular area.
32:17.233 --> 32:19.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
So to go back to it, no,
32:19.233 --> 32:24.133 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
colorblind casting
is not appropriate.
32:24.233 --> 32:26.700 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
Nontraditional
casting, when it works
32:26.800 --> 32:29.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and does not change the
intent of the playwright,
32:29.666 --> 32:30.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
I'm absolutely for.
32:31.000 --> 32:33.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
But I'm definitely more
conservative on that
32:33.766 --> 32:35.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
than people may calculate.
32:35.700 --> 32:38.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
- Do you think that colorblind
casting is less prevalent now
32:39.000 --> 32:40.100 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
than it used it be?
32:40.200 --> 32:42.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
Like, say, in the
'90s when it was like
32:42.533 --> 32:45.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
we're all the same under
the skin kind of thing?
32:45.133 --> 32:48.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
The multiracial or
the yeah, of the '90s.
32:48.666 --> 32:50.600 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
Do you see it happening less?
32:54.966 --> 32:59.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- Marti: I see it happening
in a more low-key way.
32:59.400 --> 33:03.100 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
Some that you may have
somebody who looks Latinx,
33:03.200 --> 33:05.466 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
but is not, so that it passes.
33:07.300 --> 33:13.466 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Or you may have somebody
that is Dominican,
33:13.566 --> 33:16.200 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but can play a black person.
33:16.300 --> 33:17.666 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
Which, we have the same origins,
33:17.766 --> 33:20.233 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
but we don't have the
same cultural background.
33:20.333 --> 33:22.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
So, in that way,
that it happens.
33:22.766 --> 33:25.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And it happens for the
Caucasian society too.
33:25.966 --> 33:28.033 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I mean, it's also...
[laughing wryly]
33:28.133 --> 33:29.833 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
It gets tricky when
you have somebody
33:29.933 --> 33:31.333 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
learning a Russian accent
33:31.433 --> 33:34.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and pretending to be Russian
when they're not Russian.
33:34.766 --> 33:37.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And you don't have somebody
at the dramaturgical level
33:37.533 --> 33:38.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
that's helping them out.
33:38.733 --> 33:39.866 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
But we're not
talking about that,
33:39.966 --> 33:41.300 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I'm here to talk
about brown skin.
33:41.400 --> 33:42.966 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
[audience laughing]
So, let me bring myself back.
33:43.066 --> 33:44.400 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
[all laughing]
33:45.400 --> 33:47.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
So, I think it is happening,
33:47.333 --> 33:49.333 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
it's just people are
learning the rules.
33:49.433 --> 33:52.866 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
So, you know, they're
finding ways around it.
33:52.966 --> 33:54.466 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
Just like the laws could change,
33:54.566 --> 33:56.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
that doesn't mean
people are changing
33:56.966 --> 33:58.366 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
as quickly as we would like.
34:00.066 --> 34:02.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
- Yeah, no, that feels true.
34:02.166 --> 34:03.433 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
Thank you.
34:03.533 --> 34:05.066 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- Marti: Yep.
34:05.166 --> 34:07.500 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- You're all teachers
here on this panel,
34:07.600 --> 34:10.466 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and I wonder if any of
you would like to speak
34:10.566 --> 34:13.800 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
to anything you've
seen from students
34:13.900 --> 34:17.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
that makes you hopeful for a
more inclusive theater future?
34:18.933 --> 34:20.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- Marti: Ooh, me!
34:20.366 --> 34:23.333 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
I teach at UWM and at Marquette,
34:23.433 --> 34:25.066 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and I think it's a
fascinating thing,
34:25.166 --> 34:27.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but it's also simultaneously
frustrating for me,
34:27.800 --> 34:29.633 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
which is what
they're trying to do
34:29.733 --> 34:31.400 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
with gender identification.
34:32.466 --> 34:35.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And the language
that's being developed.
34:35.633 --> 34:37.333 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
And also it's gonna spill over
34:37.433 --> 34:41.100 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
into how we deal with
people of different races.
34:41.200 --> 34:43.200 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
Which is they're
trying to remove it.
34:43.300 --> 34:46.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
I know for a fact that we won't
see that in this lifetime,
34:46.200 --> 34:48.266 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
it'll take several
generations to happen,
34:48.366 --> 34:51.433 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
but they're not only trying
to, and I see them doing it.
34:51.533 --> 34:55.800 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
They're not only trying to
say that it should be a wash,
34:55.900 --> 35:00.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
but they're also trying to
say that it shouldn't matter.
35:01.966 --> 35:05.500 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
And I love, I love
the tide of this.
35:05.600 --> 35:09.633 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So that I can still, at
some point, maybe 152,
35:09.733 --> 35:12.500 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
158 years down the line,
walk in and someone go,
35:12.600 --> 35:14.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
"Oh, that's a black woman,"
35:14.133 --> 35:15.233 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but it doesn't mean anything
35:15.333 --> 35:17.533 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
other than that's a black woman.
35:17.633 --> 35:20.300 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
And they are moving and
taking great strides,
35:20.400 --> 35:23.900 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
the younger generation,
on changing the wiring
35:24.000 --> 35:26.533 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
of how we look and
categorize ourselves.
35:27.966 --> 35:29.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Cool, thank you.
35:29.966 --> 35:31.133 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- Marti: Yep.
35:31.233 --> 35:32.300 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[laughing]
35:32.400 --> 35:33.700 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
- Lindsay: Any other
thoughts on that?
35:33.800 --> 35:35.033 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
Things you've seen
from students?
35:35.133 --> 35:36.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
People that you've taught?
35:37.566 --> 35:39.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- I was thinking
about this in relation
35:39.166 --> 35:40.733 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
to the conversation
you were just having
35:40.833 --> 35:42.066 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
about can anyone play any role?
35:42.166 --> 35:44.133 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Because this is the kind
of conversation I do have
35:44.233 --> 35:45.900 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
with my students all the time.
35:46.000 --> 35:49.966 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And you know, we may have
had our multicultural moment
35:50.066 --> 35:52.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
in the '90s, but then
we also have post-racism
35:52.933 --> 35:55.366 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and post-racial discourse
to deal with now,
35:55.466 --> 35:57.533 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
which is like the
post-Obama idea
35:57.633 --> 35:59.066 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
that like we've conquered racism
35:59.166 --> 36:01.000 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
and race doesn't matter anymore.
36:01.100 --> 36:03.066 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Which I think is also
kind of dying away,
36:03.166 --> 36:04.866 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
because we realize
now more than ever
36:04.966 --> 36:06.833 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
that racism is alive and well.
36:07.833 --> 36:09.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But you know, my students
are always really excited
36:09.633 --> 36:10.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
to talk about these ideas
36:10.800 --> 36:12.433 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and to think through
the differences
36:12.533 --> 36:14.933 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
between colorblindness
and then doing something
36:15.033 --> 36:17.766 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
that's actually
actively anti-racist.
36:17.866 --> 36:19.633 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And how if we do nothing
36:19.733 --> 36:21.933 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
and we pretend like
race doesn't matter,
36:22.033 --> 36:24.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
then we allow the
status quo to continue,
36:24.433 --> 36:27.800 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and that is a practice
of upholding racism.
36:27.900 --> 36:29.400 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
So, I have students who
are really interested
36:29.500 --> 36:31.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
in thinking about, and I
was also thinking about
36:31.300 --> 36:32.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
what you were saying
about looking at shows
36:32.900 --> 36:35.333 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
likeThe L Word, which
I'm in a class right now
36:35.433 --> 36:37.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and we're gonna watch
The L Wordlater.
36:37.233 --> 36:39.500 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
- Loryn: I'm so sorry.
[all laughing]
36:39.600 --> 36:41.100 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- They talk about
representations in it,
36:41.200 --> 36:43.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and my whole goal
with my classes
36:43.866 --> 36:46.300 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
is to give students these
sharper vocabularies
36:46.400 --> 36:49.766 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
for describing and
analyzing what's going on.
36:49.866 --> 36:52.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
So, they might watch
these shows on their own
36:52.366 --> 36:53.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and feel uncomfortable
36:53.800 --> 36:56.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and feel like this is mildly
offensive in some way.
36:56.633 --> 36:58.133 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
But I wanna give
them the actual tools
36:58.233 --> 37:00.333 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
for saying what's happening.
37:00.433 --> 37:02.900 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And that way when
they leave my class,
37:03.000 --> 37:05.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
they can be more specific
in describing what they see,
37:06.033 --> 37:07.566 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
but also bring that
into their communities
37:07.666 --> 37:09.700 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and talk to their friends
and their family members.
37:09.800 --> 37:12.333 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
They're often very excited
to talk to their family
37:12.433 --> 37:16.033 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
about what they've been watching
and how they feel about it.
37:16.133 --> 37:18.966 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And describing the history
that got us to where we were,
37:19.066 --> 37:21.966 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
and then why these images were
made in the way that they are,
37:22.066 --> 37:24.800 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and why change is so
difficult in media industries
37:24.900 --> 37:26.866 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
because of these
power differentials.
37:26.966 --> 37:28.533 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
And so, I just
get really excited
37:28.633 --> 37:30.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
when I get to talk to
my students about this,
37:30.633 --> 37:32.933 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
and I see them developing
that vocabulary
37:33.033 --> 37:35.133 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
and then bringing it
with them into the world.
37:35.233 --> 37:36.300 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
- Lindsay: Mm-hmm.
37:36.400 --> 37:38.100 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
- When we did
Curious Incident,
37:39.333 --> 37:40.866 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
we brought in Peyton's mom,
37:40.966 --> 37:44.800 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
we brought in a respite worker
for someone with autism,
37:44.900 --> 37:47.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
we brought in my
son and his wife
37:47.166 --> 37:49.333 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
to talk about their
experiences as parents
37:49.433 --> 37:50.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
of kids with autism.
37:50.866 --> 37:54.366 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
And we learned about differences
37:54.466 --> 37:57.200 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and how certain things
might be an issue,
37:57.300 --> 37:58.866 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
or maybe not be an issue.
37:58.966 --> 38:00.700 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
And then we asked
Peyton directly,
38:00.800 --> 38:02.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
"So, what kinds of
things do you need
38:03.000 --> 38:06.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"to make us have you
participate in this well?"
38:06.633 --> 38:08.500 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And he's very open with it.
38:08.600 --> 38:13.033 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Everyone that was a speaker
in that information piece
38:13.133 --> 38:15.666 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
was wonderful and very open.
38:15.766 --> 38:20.533 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
And it really enhanced the
ability of the characters to...
38:21.766 --> 38:23.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
How would the neighbor
react in this situation?
38:23.966 --> 38:26.233 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
How would the mom and dad
feel in this situation?
38:26.333 --> 38:31.000 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And just the education on
what people are really like,
38:31.100 --> 38:32.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
instead of just guessing.
38:32.633 --> 38:34.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
I think that is acceptance,
38:34.700 --> 38:36.300 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
that helps acceptance so much.
38:36.400 --> 38:39.566 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
I think if we educate kids
even younger, you know?
38:39.666 --> 38:42.000 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
Especially about people
with differences,
38:43.000 --> 38:45.500 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
that it will help with accepting
38:45.600 --> 38:47.766 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and making everyone feel like
they're part of the human race,
38:47.866 --> 38:49.433 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
'cause they are.
- Yeah.
38:49.533 --> 38:50.966 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
The thing with guessing
38:51.066 --> 38:54.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
is that it's more risky and
less risky at the same time.
38:55.000 --> 38:57.666 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Because if you just guess
as to what somebody is like,
38:57.766 --> 38:59.066 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
you don't have to
risk asking them
38:59.166 --> 39:01.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
and getting it wrong, you know?
39:01.833 --> 39:04.733 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
But if you guess and you
get it wrong, it's worse!
39:04.833 --> 39:05.900 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[laughing]
39:06.000 --> 39:07.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
But there's a vulnerability
39:07.400 --> 39:10.533 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and a willingness to be
awkward with each other,
39:10.633 --> 39:13.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
which I think maybe
technology smooths over a bit,
39:14.000 --> 39:17.400 align:left position:35% line:71% size:55%
and I'm very
pro-awkwardness and...
39:17.500 --> 39:18.566 align:left position:37.5% line:71% size:52.5%
[laughing]
I just...
39:18.666 --> 39:20.100 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
And I think, I don't know...
39:20.200 --> 39:24.633 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I think that theater can kind
of help us with these stories
39:24.733 --> 39:26.900 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
to facilitate these
kinds of conversations.
39:27.000 --> 39:28.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
That feels very
productive to me.
39:29.733 --> 39:31.233 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
But, Loryn, what about you?
39:31.333 --> 39:33.600 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
- So, I worked with little
littles, the three-year-olds.
39:33.700 --> 39:36.766 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
Those were my groups.
39:36.866 --> 39:39.533 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
I had a sports class
with these kids,
39:39.633 --> 39:41.800 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and I think this
is a good example
39:41.900 --> 39:45.833 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
of just really seeing
kids being kids
39:45.933 --> 39:48.066 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and little people, really.
39:49.233 --> 39:51.933 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I had three boys,
all very different,
39:52.033 --> 39:55.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and two were on the spectrum,
39:56.000 --> 39:58.433 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
I think one was
officially diagnosed,
39:58.533 --> 40:01.266 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
the other was not and
it was, you know...
40:01.366 --> 40:04.333 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
I mean, they're
three, four, you know?
40:04.433 --> 40:06.566 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
All of 'em don't
wanna sit still,
40:06.666 --> 40:11.566 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
and being able to work
within what they needed
40:11.666 --> 40:14.766 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
and still teach them what I
was supposed to be teaching
40:14.866 --> 40:17.866 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
with, you know, how to
hold a hockey stick.
40:17.966 --> 40:20.366 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Which I'm gonna be honest,
I had to look that up too.
40:20.466 --> 40:22.200 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
[all laughing]
40:22.300 --> 40:23.933 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
But we couldn't listen to music.
40:24.033 --> 40:25.300 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
That was part of the thing.
40:25.400 --> 40:27.500 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
We were supposed to listen to
music for every single thing,
40:27.600 --> 40:28.900 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
and so, I would ask each one,
40:29.000 --> 40:30.733 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
"How are you feeling
today about music?"
40:30.833 --> 40:32.266 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
If somebody said
they could do it,
40:32.366 --> 40:35.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
but we needed to keep it low,
then we turned on the music,
40:35.166 --> 40:36.933 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
we all were quiet and
we would, you know,
40:37.033 --> 40:40.666 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
adjust the music level to make
sure that everybody was okay
40:40.766 --> 40:42.600 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
and nobody needed
to cover their ears.
40:42.700 --> 40:44.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
And as soon as you needed
to cover your ears,
40:44.700 --> 40:46.200 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
we turned the music off.
40:48.300 --> 40:49.733 align:left position:32.5% line:71% size:57.5%
And it just...
40:49.833 --> 40:52.833 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Nobody was mad at anybody
40:52.933 --> 40:54.666 align:left position:25% line:71% size:65%
for not being able to
listen to the music.
40:54.766 --> 40:58.533 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
Or somebody really wanted to,
so we had a discussion.
40:58.633 --> 41:01.900 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
"Today this song is really
important that we listen to it,
41:02.000 --> 41:03.633 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
"can we just, for this one song?
41:03.733 --> 41:05.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
"And then we don't have
to listen to any more?"
41:05.766 --> 41:09.466 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Of course, that was what we
agreed to and it worked out.
41:10.566 --> 41:12.333 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
I had one of the
parents actually say,
41:13.333 --> 41:15.233 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
"Nobody has actually gotten him
41:15.333 --> 41:18.033 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
"to do all of the things
that you've been able to do."
41:19.800 --> 41:24.700 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I think what it comes down to
is listening and adjusting...
41:24.800 --> 41:28.666 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
I was the one with the
most capability and...
41:31.333 --> 41:32.533 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
I mean, I was the oldest,
41:32.633 --> 41:34.000 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
I was the maturest,
you know, whatever,
41:34.100 --> 41:36.433 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
all of those things and I was...
41:36.533 --> 41:38.066 align:left position:15% line:71% size:75%
I had to step back, you know?
41:38.166 --> 41:39.733 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
It wasn't about what I needed.
41:39.833 --> 41:41.600 align:left position:20% line:71% size:70%
Like, did I wanna listen
to that song today?
41:41.700 --> 41:44.366 align:left position:27.5% line:71% size:62.5%
Maybe I did, but it
wasn't what I needed.
41:44.466 --> 41:46.266 align:left position:10% line:71% size:80%
It mattered, you know, or, what,
41:46.366 --> 41:48.100 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
it's what, you know, he needed.
41:48.200 --> 41:51.200 align:left position:12.5% line:71% size:77.5%
And I think that's a big thing,
41:51.300 --> 41:54.766 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
is being able to
take a step back,
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meet the person who
has the most needs,
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and maybe he needs the most
representation or what have you,
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and let that shine.
42:03.966 --> 42:06.133 align:left position:17.5% line:71% size:72.5%
Because it's not about you.
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It's about the other person.
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- Lindsay: Thanks.
42:11.533 --> 42:13.700 align:left position:22.5% line:71% size:67.5%
All right, any closing
thoughts from y'all?
42:15.366 --> 42:16.666 align:left position:30% line:71% size:60%
- Lori: Thank you
for being here.
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[all laughing]
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- Kathleen: Thanks
for inviting us.
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- Thank you everybody
for your patience,
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for your thoughtfulness,
and your attention,
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and enjoy the rest of Idea Fest.
42:24.633 --> 42:27.633 align:left position:25% line:5% size:65%
[audience applauding]