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>> It is my very great pleasure

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to introduce one of the most

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imminent historians in the

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United States.

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Well known as both a historian

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and as an author, especially for

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his landmark trilogy on the

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Civil Rights era during the time

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of Martin Luther King.

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Many of you may already know

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that the first book in the

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trilogy,  Parting the Waters,

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1954-1963,  won the Pulitzer

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Prize among many of the prizes

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that his work has received.

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He's here, I think, because of

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the cover story that he wrote in

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2011 that appeared in  The

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Atlantic  magazine entitled "The

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Shame of College Sports," which

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did touch off a national debate.

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He has expanded it into a

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digital eBook with a provocative

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title:  The Cartel.

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And it's my very great pleasure

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to introduce Taylor Branch who

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will speak to us today about the

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shame of college sports.

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[APPLAUSE]

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>> Thank you.

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I'm happy to be here.

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I was rooting for Wisconsin in

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the Final Four for a lot of

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reasons.

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[LAUGHTER]

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Not just because I was

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coming here.

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I want to say that I am a

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tourist in the world of sports.

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I did almost play college

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football at Georgia Tech.

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That was one of the first

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thoughtful things I ever did,

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not to sign that grant and aid.

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I've always loved college sports

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but not very often, and I did

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this thing for  The Atlantic  more

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or less to avoid taking on

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another tone, which is what I

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normally do, and I really

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stepped into a hornet's nest.

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I want to try to cover a lot of

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ground in a short amount of

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time.

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I know we don't have much time

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here.

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Sports is a big topic.

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I basically was assigned, why is

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college sports controversial and

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why is the United States the

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only country in the world that

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plays big money sports at

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institutions of higher learning?

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That is true.

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Nowhere else in the world does

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this happen.

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What got me into it, when I was

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at North Carolina, Bill Friday

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was the president.

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He was chairman of the reform

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commission for 20 years, the

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co-founder, president of the

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University of North Carolina.

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Just died a couple of years ago.

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He basically wanted to take all

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the money out of college sports

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and give the university back to

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Socrates.

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It didn't work.

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I went into it not knowing an

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awful lot except I had a little

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bit--

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My overview was, look, the

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whole point of sports is that

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it's a vacation from thinking.

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Sports are to cheer and to boo.

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It's an artificial creation away

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from real life that delivers

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little bits of immortality.

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The thrill of victory, the agony

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of defeat, so on and so forth,

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by artificial rules.

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So we don't think about them.

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We don't really like them, and

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here they are at the university

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whose purpose, enshrined for

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thousands of years in western

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culture, is to think and analyze

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and balance things in the

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theoretical world against the

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empirical world.

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And here is sports right next to

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us.

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We don't think very much about

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sports.

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We're largely imprisoned in the

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mist that allow us to cheer and

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boo, to make decisions.

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Our attitudes toward most

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college athletes are not

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attitudes of respect toward

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fellow citizens.

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They are governed in my

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experience, especially the

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people who have yelled and

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screamed about this issue in the

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last couple of years, is that

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most people envy, scorn,

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worship, don't take seriously

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college athletes whether they

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are professors in the classroom

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or they're fellow students on

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campus.

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I had the editor of a Big Ten

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college newspaper tell me that

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they don't write very much about

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the athletes outside the sports

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performance because most

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students don't consider athletes

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fellow students.

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They'll gawk at them, they'll

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line up for their autograph, and

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they'll scorn them as jocks, but

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they don't think of them as

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fellow students.

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There is a little, this is the

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reason why almost 40 year ago

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when I was starting writing

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books, I ghost-wrote a book with

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Bill Russell of the Boston

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Celtics, and I was highly

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surprised to show up at his

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house and he wanted to talk

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about sports as philosophy.

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He said all sport is some

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mixture of art and war.

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An artificial creation bound in

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the rules to create an

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attractive blend of art and war.

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As vicious a sport as boxing,

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there's still something

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beautiful about Muhammad Ali,

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"float like a butterfly, sting

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like a bee."

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He brought women into

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heavyweight boxing briefly.

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And as artistic as the little

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female gymnasts are, they will

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cut your heart out to win.

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There's some mix of art and war

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in all of these things, and the

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blend is hard to understand.

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But it plays a vital role

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because it is a brief vacation

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from mortality.

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What I'm trying, functioning,

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basically, on how well the

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artificial rules work that

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create this captivating

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artificial world.

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That's what the previous

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panelists, it seems to me, how

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fair are the artificial rules

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that create the world that we

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love to watch.

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Now I want to give you a little

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bit of history about US sports.

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They grew up in the United

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States after the Civil War.

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They're basically a century and

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a half old.

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Most of them came from England.

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America adapted British sports.

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Rugby, various other sports.

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British rounders became

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baseball.

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We invented basketball in whole

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claw, but all roughly in the

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same period.

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Not coincidentally, this is the

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same period when the Olympics

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were revived after 2,000 years

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of having lapsed.

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The British were then colonizing

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the world, and they invented the

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word amateur to define the

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sports that they played as a way

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of keeping the sports among the

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upper classes.

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They had a very amateur, like a

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lot of things involved with

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college sports, has a

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deliciously ambiguous meaning.

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It is noble when money, filthy

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lucre, is not part of the

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equation, but also somebody

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who's a ranked amateur is a term

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of derision, whose rights are

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not to be taken seriously.

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Sports grew up and became a

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worldwide sensation in England

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and it came over to the United

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States.

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In 1869, the Harvard four-man

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rowing crew challenged Oxford to

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a race down the Thames River

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that attracted 750,000

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spectators, including John

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Stuart Mill and Charles Dickens,

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to watch this race.

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Sports were a big deal as the

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world became smaller, began to

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become smaller, in the world of

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empires.

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We didn't have an empire.

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In fact, we didn't profess to

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want one.

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We didn't colonize anything

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during that late 19th century.

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But we specialized in manly

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sports.

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Football was the quintessential

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American creation.

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John L Sullivan, the heavyweight

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champion in the 1880s, said that

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boxing, his sport, was child's

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play compared to college

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football.

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They had no helmets.

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They had virtually no rules.

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You could fight.

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Basically it was a scrum to move

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the ball down.

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Walter Camp invented rules to

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put lines on there, to have a

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scrimmage line, to have plays.

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The forward pass was illegal

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well into the 20th century

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because it was considered

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unmanly, if not immoral, to be

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able to throw the ball rather

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than to have to go through blood

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and guts to advance the ball

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down the field.

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[LAUGHTER]

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That's what happened.

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The NCAA could not mandate

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helmets until 1939 because they

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were considered unmanly.

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Princeton became famous for

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their chrysanthemum hairdos

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where they would grow their hair

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out and shape them into

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chrysanthemum to soften the

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blows rather than having to wear

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a helmet.

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Sports are a wonderful

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artificial world, but the early

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American sports, when we were

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developing them, were all run by

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students.

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Universities had absolutely

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nothing to do with them.

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Walter Camp, the father of

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football, said in 1900 that the

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whole point of these sports was

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that students challenged other

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students to games.

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They made up the rules, they

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enforced the rules.

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Yes, they were amateurs because

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it was in the Ivy League.

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They were all gentlemen, and

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like British gentlemen, they

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didn't want working class people

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and so they called it amateur.

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But they all had ringers and so

289
00:09:35,433 --> 00:09:36,466
on and so forth, but they

290
00:09:36,466 --> 00:09:37,800
challenged these games.

291
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,166
Harvard Stadium was built in

292
00:09:39,166 --> 00:09:40,900
1903 without a nickel from

293
00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:43,466
Harvard.

294
00:09:43,466 --> 00:09:44,766
Nothing.

295
00:09:44,766 --> 00:09:46,400
It's the students and the alumni

296
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,666
created it.

297
00:09:47,666 --> 00:09:48,900
But the first half of the 20th

298
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:50,133
century, the institutions moved

299
00:09:50,133 --> 00:09:51,300
in and controlled it, and it

300
00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:53,533
became the era of the coach.

301
00:09:53,533 --> 00:09:55,566
Knute Rockne became famous.

302
00:09:55,566 --> 00:09:57,433
Control over the players, some

303
00:09:57,433 --> 00:09:59,533
institutional control.

304
00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:01,800
But the NCAA was basically a

305
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,233
small organization that

306
00:10:03,233 --> 00:10:05,500
collected $100 annually from

307
00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:07,933
schools to train referees and

308
00:10:07,933 --> 00:10:10,433
hand out trophies.

309
00:10:10,433 --> 00:10:12,100
All this changed dramatically in

310
00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:14,566
1951 with the advent of

311
00:10:14,566 --> 00:10:16,200
television and the advent of

312
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,766
Walter Byers, who was the first

313
00:10:18,766 --> 00:10:20,400
NCAA director who actually had a

314
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,766
functional office.

315
00:10:23,766 --> 00:10:25,433
They had a few file cabinets.

316
00:10:25,433 --> 00:10:28,566
Until he said television is a

317
00:10:28,566 --> 00:10:31,500
mortal threat to college sports

318
00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:33,100
because if people can stay home

319
00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:34,500
and watch for free, they won't

320
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,733
buy your tickets, and therefore

321
00:10:36,733 --> 00:10:39,433
college broadcasts have to be

322
00:10:39,433 --> 00:10:42,533
regulated like nuclear weapons,

323
00:10:42,533 --> 00:10:45,566
and let the NCAA sign the

324
00:10:45,566 --> 00:10:47,766
contracts and control them.

325
00:10:47,766 --> 00:10:49,533
And he forced all schools to do

326
00:10:49,533 --> 00:10:53,766
that, and they did it in 1951.

327
00:10:53,766 --> 00:10:55,133
And he signed the first

328
00:10:55,133 --> 00:10:57,466
contract, 1951, for $1.6 million

329
00:10:57,466 --> 00:10:58,933
and had a monopoly.

330
00:10:58,933 --> 00:11:00,866
It became the game of the week.

331
00:11:00,866 --> 00:11:03,366
One football game per week.

332
00:11:03,366 --> 00:11:07,000
Now hundreds are broadcast.

333
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,333
But that was the monopoly that

334
00:11:08,333 --> 00:11:10,333
began the money era in college

335
00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:11,400
sports.

336
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,866
It's relatively recent.

337
00:11:12,866 --> 00:11:16,133
Sixty years divided in half.

338
00:11:16,133 --> 00:11:17,533
The first 30 years was a golden

339
00:11:17,533 --> 00:11:20,333
age of a total NCAA monopoly

340
00:11:20,333 --> 00:11:21,766
where they licensed all the

341
00:11:21,766 --> 00:11:23,433
football broadcasts, took a

342
00:11:23,433 --> 00:11:25,600
healthy cut, and they licensed

343
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,866
March Madness and took a healthy

344
00:11:27,866 --> 00:11:31,566
cut.

345
00:11:31,566 --> 00:11:33,800
But the problem is that out of

346
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,100
that history, and I want to tell

347
00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:36,300
you this is a little bit of a

348
00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:39,266
sideline, most of the disputes

349
00:11:39,266 --> 00:11:40,566
about--

350
00:11:40,566 --> 00:11:42,066
I'm going to be talking about

351
00:11:42,066 --> 00:11:43,433
rights and thinking about

352
00:11:43,433 --> 00:11:45,400
players, but most of the

353
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,700
disputes about NCAA internally

354
00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:50,133
are really fights over the money

355
00:11:50,133 --> 00:11:52,600
within the NCAA.

356
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:53,666
And that's something that you

357
00:11:53,666 --> 00:11:55,833
don't ever hear anything about.

358
00:11:55,833 --> 00:11:57,600
The big football schools grumble

359
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,600
that the NCAA had a monopoly and

360
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,833
was not allowing them to

361
00:12:00,833 --> 00:12:03,266
televise more of their games.

362
00:12:03,266 --> 00:12:05,033
They went all the way to the

363
00:12:05,033 --> 00:12:06,400
Supreme Court in 1984, sued the

364
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,133
NCAA, said it was a cartel that

365
00:12:10,133 --> 00:12:11,600
was restricting their ability to

366
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,133
make money, this is Georgia and

367
00:12:13,133 --> 00:12:15,000
Oklahoma as the lead

368
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,266
universities for the big

369
00:12:16,266 --> 00:12:18,000
football schools, and we don't

370
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,566
want the NCAA, which pretends

371
00:12:20,566 --> 00:12:21,866
that we play the same sport as

372
00:12:21,866 --> 00:12:24,266
Fordham, we don't want Fordham

373
00:12:24,266 --> 00:12:25,466
making rules for how the

374
00:12:25,466 --> 00:12:26,533
University of Texas and

375
00:12:26,533 --> 00:12:27,766
Oklahoma, and we don't want

376
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:30,300
share money with Fordham.

377
00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:31,533
And the Supreme Court said

378
00:12:31,533 --> 00:12:32,533
absolutely right.

379
00:12:32,533 --> 00:12:33,633
This is a cartel.

380
00:12:33,633 --> 00:12:36,933
You cannot restrict colleges.

381
00:12:36,933 --> 00:12:38,233
It's illegal.

382
00:12:38,233 --> 00:12:39,900
It's against competitive free

383
00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:41,166
enterprise.

384
00:12:41,166 --> 00:12:43,233
They vacated NCAA's contracts

385
00:12:43,233 --> 00:12:44,500
for football.

386
00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:46,466
Ever since then, the NCAA

387
00:12:46,466 --> 00:12:47,633
doesn't get a nickel out of

388
00:12:47,633 --> 00:12:50,133
collegiate football broadcasts.

389
00:12:50,133 --> 00:12:52,000
They all go to the schools.

390
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,900
It created, and that divide has

391
00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:56,566
been covered by the fact that

392
00:12:56,566 --> 00:12:58,333
the value of March Madness has

393
00:12:58,333 --> 00:13:01,933
grown a hundredfold to almost a

394
00:13:01,933 --> 00:13:03,366
billion dollars a year just for

395
00:13:03,366 --> 00:13:06,100
running a one-month tournament

396
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:07,433
out of which the NCAA gets all

397
00:13:07,433 --> 00:13:08,600
its revenue.

398
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:09,933
But it has blatant conflict of

399
00:13:09,933 --> 00:13:12,133
interest in enforcing rules

400
00:13:12,133 --> 00:13:13,433
between football, where it gets

401
00:13:13,433 --> 00:13:15,233
nothing, and basketball, where

402
00:13:15,233 --> 00:13:17,266
it gets all of its money.

403
00:13:17,266 --> 00:13:18,633
Don't think this won't be a

404
00:13:18,633 --> 00:13:19,733
factor.

405
00:13:19,733 --> 00:13:20,966
When you read the story, it's

406
00:13:20,966 --> 00:13:22,433
that the five conferences are

407
00:13:22,433 --> 00:13:23,866
negotiated with the NCAA to

408
00:13:23,866 --> 00:13:25,833
raise money for players because

409
00:13:25,833 --> 00:13:27,866
they can afford to pay it but

410
00:13:27,866 --> 00:13:29,833
all the other thousand schools

411
00:13:29,833 --> 00:13:31,633
can't.

412
00:13:31,633 --> 00:13:33,066
What's going on here is that

413
00:13:33,066 --> 00:13:35,266
those same five conferences are

414
00:13:35,266 --> 00:13:36,533
about to have a football

415
00:13:36,533 --> 00:13:38,733
tournament championship that's

416
00:13:38,733 --> 00:13:39,933
going to earn another billion

417
00:13:39,933 --> 00:13:41,266
dollars.

418
00:13:41,266 --> 00:13:42,600
The NCAA won't get a nickel of

419
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:43,933
it, and if they go to the

420
00:13:43,933 --> 00:13:45,833
networks and say we can run a

421
00:13:45,833 --> 00:13:47,033
basketball tournament too

422
00:13:47,033 --> 00:13:49,200
because it's our schools, the

423
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,233
NCAA won't have any money.

424
00:13:51,233 --> 00:13:53,566
This organization didn't come

425
00:13:53,566 --> 00:13:55,766
down from Olympus.

426
00:13:55,766 --> 00:13:57,266
It's the creature of these same

427
00:13:57,266 --> 00:13:58,466
schools that are creating the

428
00:13:58,466 --> 00:14:01,600
football fight.

429
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,966
Now, that is about really

430
00:14:05,966 --> 00:14:09,366
internal politics.

431
00:14:09,366 --> 00:14:12,533
The issue that I tried to raise

432
00:14:12,533 --> 00:14:13,866
is a little bit different from

433
00:14:13,866 --> 00:14:15,566
that, and it's about the ethics

434
00:14:15,566 --> 00:14:17,233
that you're discussing here.

435
00:14:17,233 --> 00:14:22,300
How did college sports in big

436
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:23,900
money schools, which are a tiny

437
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:26,100
minority of the NCAA, 1200

438
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,466
members, about 120 of them play

439
00:14:28,466 --> 00:14:31,033
big time sports, how did they

440
00:14:31,033 --> 00:14:34,533
develop this incredible

441
00:14:34,533 --> 00:14:37,600
$16 billion money machine, and

442
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,600
what do they depend on for

443
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,933
capturing the bulk of that

444
00:14:43,933 --> 00:14:46,000
revenue?

445
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,766
Well, there's a natural

446
00:14:47,766 --> 00:14:50,533
assumption on colleges and

447
00:14:50,533 --> 00:14:52,266
campuses that the universities

448
00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:54,433
are creating value for the

449
00:14:54,433 --> 00:14:56,633
people who are on the campus.

450
00:14:56,633 --> 00:14:57,833
The students are absorbing that

451
00:14:57,833 --> 00:14:59,866
value.

452
00:14:59,866 --> 00:15:03,866
It became ever so easy and

453
00:15:03,866 --> 00:15:05,966
seductive with inertia and

454
00:15:05,966 --> 00:15:07,266
natural assumptions that are

455
00:15:07,266 --> 00:15:09,166
related to medical assumptions

456
00:15:09,166 --> 00:15:10,700
that the doctor is the healer in

457
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:14,033
charge of the patient that when

458
00:15:14,033 --> 00:15:15,700
waves of money started coming in

459
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:16,933
the other direction, it was very

460
00:15:16,933 --> 00:15:18,533
easy for universities to say

461
00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:20,466
this is the result of what we're

462
00:15:20,466 --> 00:15:21,766
doing.

463
00:15:21,766 --> 00:15:23,100
We're creating it.

464
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:24,533
The students who are playing and

465
00:15:24,533 --> 00:15:25,900
creating all of that money are

466
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:27,600
in the same relationship that

467
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,033
the students in the classroom

468
00:15:29,033 --> 00:15:31,233
are who are hearing our lectures

469
00:15:31,233 --> 00:15:33,300
getting value from us.

470
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:34,900
When in fact what is happening

471
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,233
is two totally distinct things.

472
00:15:37,233 --> 00:15:38,400
In the classroom, the students

473
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,933
are learning from the

474
00:15:39,933 --> 00:15:41,233
accumulated knowledge and wisdom

475
00:15:41,233 --> 00:15:42,700
of the professors.

476
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:44,133
Out on the fields, in big money

477
00:15:44,133 --> 00:15:46,366
sports, the university is

478
00:15:46,366 --> 00:15:48,166
benefiting from value created by

479
00:15:48,166 --> 00:15:53,433
the athletes in huge numbers.

480
00:15:53,433 --> 00:15:54,833
But people don't want to see

481
00:15:54,833 --> 00:15:55,966
that.

482
00:15:55,966 --> 00:15:57,233
They want to see the athletes as

483
00:15:57,233 --> 00:15:58,633
in the same role.

484
00:15:58,633 --> 00:16:00,433
The NCAA invented the word

485
00:16:00,433 --> 00:16:04,266
student athlete to merge the

486
00:16:04,266 --> 00:16:07,533
functions of student and athlete

487
00:16:07,533 --> 00:16:10,400
into a hybrid creature that only

488
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,233
the NCAA understands, that is

489
00:16:13,233 --> 00:16:15,033
creating all of this value and

490
00:16:15,033 --> 00:16:17,166
making the billion dollar sports

491
00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:18,666
industry a part of the

492
00:16:18,666 --> 00:16:22,100
educational process by FIAT

493
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:24,933
rather than something distinct.

494
00:16:24,933 --> 00:16:26,500
Mark Emmert said, just this

495
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,066
week, you can't chop the college

496
00:16:30,066 --> 00:16:32,500
student in half.

497
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:33,566
He's got to be a student or an

498
00:16:33,566 --> 00:16:34,600
athlete.

499
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,500
We say he's a student.

500
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:38,233
He's predominately a student.

501
00:16:38,233 --> 00:16:40,000
That was in answer to the union

502
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,700
ruling at Northwestern that

503
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:44,266
athletes are predominately

504
00:16:44,266 --> 00:16:47,733
employees.

505
00:16:47,733 --> 00:16:49,466
Another wake up call to get

506
00:16:49,466 --> 00:16:51,200
people finally to think a little

507
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,333
bit about how do you distinguish

508
00:16:53,333 --> 00:16:54,600
between these roles, or should

509
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,766
you.

510
00:16:57,766 --> 00:17:00,766
If the union case at

511
00:17:00,766 --> 00:17:02,533
Northwestern goes forward, it

512
00:17:02,533 --> 00:17:05,500
will be a very bizarre result in

513
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:07,033
all of labor history that a

514
00:17:07,033 --> 00:17:08,966
talent pool will win collective

515
00:17:08,966 --> 00:17:10,433
bargaining rights when they have

516
00:17:10,433 --> 00:17:11,666
absolutely no individual

517
00:17:11,666 --> 00:17:13,500
bargaining rights.

518
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,100
It's like going all the way from

519
00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:18,266
all homosexual behavior being

520
00:17:18,266 --> 00:17:21,066
criminalized and an unspeakable

521
00:17:21,066 --> 00:17:22,766
taboo to gay marriage without

522
00:17:22,766 --> 00:17:25,733
going through the intervening

523
00:17:25,733 --> 00:17:27,633
decades.

524
00:17:27,633 --> 00:17:29,566
Students today in the NCAA have

525
00:17:29,566 --> 00:17:35,233
almost no individual rights.

526
00:17:35,233 --> 00:17:41,700
The way to look at that is this:

527
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:44,933
if you are a student who's

528
00:17:44,933 --> 00:17:47,066
playing a sport and you get a

529
00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:49,600
Christmas card from a sports

530
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,066
agent or the representative of a

531
00:17:51,066 --> 00:17:53,733
professional team, the NCAA will

532
00:17:53,733 --> 00:17:56,433
brand you unethical.

533
00:17:56,433 --> 00:17:57,733
They call that unethical.

534
00:17:57,733 --> 00:18:00,033
Self-interest is unethical to

535
00:18:00,033 --> 00:18:05,433
the point that bylaws say that

536
00:18:05,433 --> 00:18:06,866
commercial activity on the part

537
00:18:06,866 --> 00:18:09,233
of college athletes exploits the

538
00:18:09,233 --> 00:18:11,233
athlete.

539
00:18:11,233 --> 00:18:12,633
They are exploited because they

540
00:18:12,633 --> 00:18:15,200
are being denied the benefits of

541
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,600
the amateur system, which,

542
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:18,866
because of the amount of money

543
00:18:18,866 --> 00:18:20,500
involved in it, amateurism is

544
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:22,100
somewhat unseemly.

545
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,666
Also because a lot of people are

546
00:18:23,666 --> 00:18:25,700
aware that amateurism vanished

547
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:26,833
from the Olympics without the

548
00:18:26,833 --> 00:18:28,400
world falling apart.

549
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,433
So they've changed the term in

550
00:18:30,433 --> 00:18:32,733
the last four years.

551
00:18:32,733 --> 00:18:34,266
You don't hear it anymore,

552
00:18:34,266 --> 00:18:35,433
amateurism.

553
00:18:35,433 --> 00:18:36,933
It's now the collegiate model.

554
00:18:36,933 --> 00:18:39,733
It will collapse if students are

555
00:18:39,733 --> 00:18:41,900
exploited by getting money.

556
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:43,033
Now, this is an Alice in

557
00:18:43,033 --> 00:18:46,500
Wonderland use of language

558
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:48,500
because in ordinary activity, if

559
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:50,900
you are denied some fair share

560
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,066
of the value that you create,

561
00:18:53,066 --> 00:18:54,933
you are exploited.

562
00:18:54,933 --> 00:18:56,500
In this world, you are exploited

563
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:59,866
if you get even a whiff of the

564
00:18:59,866 --> 00:19:02,933
value that you create.

565
00:19:02,933 --> 00:19:05,000
The NCAA, of course the athletes

566
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,000
have no membership in the NCAA.

567
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,600
They have no informed consent.

568
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:10,766
They have no rights.

569
00:19:10,766 --> 00:19:12,833
They have no vote.

570
00:19:12,833 --> 00:19:14,133
The NCAA does not owe them any

571
00:19:14,133 --> 00:19:15,966
due process consideration.

572
00:19:15,966 --> 00:19:17,166
It went all the way to the

573
00:19:17,166 --> 00:19:20,166
Supreme Court to be exempted

574
00:19:20,166 --> 00:19:23,733
from due process rights.

575
00:19:23,733 --> 00:19:26,166
Athletes have no Fifth Amendment

576
00:19:26,166 --> 00:19:30,166
rights in NCAA investigations.

577
00:19:30,166 --> 00:19:32,366
In this, the NCAA will say we're

578
00:19:32,366 --> 00:19:33,833
beleaguered because we have no

579
00:19:33,833 --> 00:19:36,400
force of law.

580
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,666
We can't subpoena players.

581
00:19:39,666 --> 00:19:41,033
Why can't they subpoena players?

582
00:19:41,033 --> 00:19:42,700
Because you couldn't in a

583
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:44,500
million years find any state

584
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:45,900
legislature that would write

585
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,333
laws to do what the colleges do

586
00:19:48,333 --> 00:19:50,400
by collusive agreement to deny

587
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,733
players the right to bargain for

588
00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:54,433
any value a nickel above their

589
00:19:54,433 --> 00:19:56,500
scholarship.

590
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:57,800
So because there are no criminal

591
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,966
laws, no subpoena, what they do

592
00:19:59,966 --> 00:20:01,500
is they say when we have an

593
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:03,266
investigation, if you do not

594
00:20:03,266 --> 00:20:05,866
cooperate to our satisfaction,

595
00:20:05,866 --> 00:20:07,366
it shall be deemed unethical

596
00:20:07,366 --> 00:20:09,833
conduct.

597
00:20:09,833 --> 00:20:11,666
So they enforce this by denying

598
00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:13,166
Fifth Amendment rights on top of

599
00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:15,033
due process, on top of no

600
00:20:15,033 --> 00:20:17,200
representation, on top of

601
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,633
everything.

602
00:20:18,633 --> 00:20:23,000
So players are serfs.

603
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,200
Penn State was an example of

604
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:25,333
that.

605
00:20:25,333 --> 00:20:26,466
Players can have their

606
00:20:26,466 --> 00:20:28,500
scholarships yanked with no

607
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:30,933
recourse for any reason.

608
00:20:30,933 --> 00:20:32,500
They can be getting a 4.0 in

609
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:34,900
school, but if they don't play

610
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,333
to the satisfaction of the

611
00:20:36,333 --> 00:20:37,933
coach, if they don't show up at

612
00:20:37,933 --> 00:20:39,233
5:30 in the morning for the

613
00:20:39,233 --> 00:20:41,433
voluntary workouts, they can

614
00:20:41,433 --> 00:20:43,233
have their scholarship yanked.

615
00:20:43,233 --> 00:20:45,233
They have no recourse.

616
00:20:45,233 --> 00:20:47,500
They don't speak out.

617
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:48,833
Athletes are very tentative

618
00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:50,033
about speaking out on their

619
00:20:50,033 --> 00:20:51,200
campus.

620
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,500
It is the very opposite of what

621
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,400
you hope to incur and to support

622
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,433
in the university, a free

623
00:20:57,433 --> 00:20:59,933
exchange of ideas about this.

624
00:20:59,933 --> 00:21:03,400
College athletes are fearful.

625
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,000
If they knew what was going on

626
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,433
with that coach at Penn State,

627
00:21:07,433 --> 00:21:09,000
they had to think very many

628
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,500
times about exposing it or doing

629
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:12,566
anything about it because their

630
00:21:12,566 --> 00:21:14,400
scholarship would be yanked and

631
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,900
they'd have no recourse.

632
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:17,433
The whole NCAA system

633
00:21:17,433 --> 00:21:19,200
concentrates power in the

634
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,000
coaches, in the administrators,

635
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,133
by denying rights to the

636
00:21:22,133 --> 00:21:24,466
athletes.

637
00:21:24,466 --> 00:21:27,366
Many things are challenging it.

638
00:21:27,366 --> 00:21:29,400
My old friend Bill Russell is a

639
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,900
plaintiff in the Ed O'Bannon

640
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:33,166
case, challenging it because the

641
00:21:33,166 --> 00:21:35,933
NCAA still sells Bill Russell

642
00:21:35,933 --> 00:21:39,100
film from when he played for the

643
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:40,533
University of San Francisco in

644
00:21:40,533 --> 00:21:41,766
the '50s, and he doesn't get a

645
00:21:41,766 --> 00:21:44,033
nickel.

646
00:21:44,033 --> 00:21:46,300
He just turned 80.

647
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:47,500
He doesn't get a nickel

648
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:48,533
from that.

649
00:21:48,533 --> 00:21:49,733
Ed O'Bannon, Oscar Robertson's

650
00:21:49,733 --> 00:21:50,766
a plaintiff.

651
00:21:50,766 --> 00:21:51,933
Lots of people.

652
00:21:51,933 --> 00:21:55,533
I saw Russell last night, and he

653
00:21:55,533 --> 00:21:56,766
was talking about this case.

654
00:21:56,766 --> 00:21:57,966
Jeffrey Kessler just filed suit

655
00:21:57,966 --> 00:21:59,333
last month challenging the basis

656
00:21:59,333 --> 00:22:02,700
of the NCAA's constraints as a

657
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,000
prima facie cartel.

658
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,866
In fact, economics textbook used

659
00:22:06,866 --> 00:22:10,433
the NCAA as an example of what a

660
00:22:10,433 --> 00:22:12,100
cartel is.

661
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:14,866
Being in economics textbooks.

662
00:22:14,866 --> 00:22:18,266
OPEC is a cartel that sets an

663
00:22:18,266 --> 00:22:19,666
artificially high price on what

664
00:22:19,666 --> 00:22:20,800
you're selling.

665
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,733
The NCAA is a cartel that sets

666
00:22:22,733 --> 00:22:26,533
an artificially low value price

667
00:22:26,533 --> 00:22:28,500
on what you're buying.

668
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:29,766
Otherwise, every athlete that

669
00:22:29,766 --> 00:22:31,766
gets recruited would be free to

670
00:22:31,766 --> 00:22:33,066
say what are you going to give

671
00:22:33,066 --> 00:22:35,133
me in the way of health

672
00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:38,333
insurance and a whole bunch of

673
00:22:38,333 --> 00:22:41,866
other benefits before you come.

674
00:22:41,866 --> 00:22:44,466
That free market is foreclosed

675
00:22:44,466 --> 00:22:46,700
by NCAA rules that say that that

676
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,200
is not only illegal, that any

677
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,500
athlete that takes part in that

678
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:52,033
will be banned, their name will

679
00:22:52,033 --> 00:22:53,533
be blackened, and we will call

680
00:22:53,533 --> 00:22:56,466
them unethical.

681
00:22:56,466 --> 00:22:58,233
And we have the nerve to say

682
00:22:58,233 --> 00:22:59,400
that we're doing all of that

683
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,066
because we are so devoted to

684
00:23:01,066 --> 00:23:02,933
them, that we want to preserve

685
00:23:02,933 --> 00:23:04,500
for them the blessings of

686
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,533
amateurism.

687
00:23:07,533 --> 00:23:08,900
This is the part of it that

688
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,633
bothers me the most.

689
00:23:10,633 --> 00:23:12,500
There's a lot of idealism that

690
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:14,600
is inherent part of the cheering

691
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,866
and the booing.

692
00:23:15,866 --> 00:23:18,933
I love education.

693
00:23:18,933 --> 00:23:21,300
Colleges are mostly about

694
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:22,633
education.

695
00:23:22,633 --> 00:23:24,000
That's what they should be.

696
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,400
Therefore, I don't want to even

697
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:26,933
think about athletes having

698
00:23:26,933 --> 00:23:28,033
rights or so on and so forth

699
00:23:28,033 --> 00:23:29,100
They have something priceless.

700
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:31,433
They can get an education.

701
00:23:31,433 --> 00:23:33,900
It is very unseemly for people

702
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:35,433
of high education to say I'm

703
00:23:35,433 --> 00:23:37,733
devoted to somebody's interests

704
00:23:37,733 --> 00:23:39,200
and I really want them to get an

705
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,200
education, but I'm going to take

706
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,233
away all of their rights that

707
00:23:43,233 --> 00:23:44,733
they have to defend their own

708
00:23:44,733 --> 00:23:46,266
education and I'm not even going

709
00:23:46,266 --> 00:23:48,066
to discuss the rationale for

710
00:23:48,066 --> 00:23:49,933
which I do that.

711
00:23:49,933 --> 00:23:54,266
That is inertia from a system

712
00:23:54,266 --> 00:23:56,333
where people in college, people

713
00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:57,700
in universities, are so

714
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,666
accustomed to being the

715
00:23:59,666 --> 00:24:03,766
benevolent dispenser of value

716
00:24:03,766 --> 00:24:04,966
that we can't recognize that

717
00:24:04,966 --> 00:24:06,433
this is a different world, that

718
00:24:06,433 --> 00:24:08,066
we have created a world.

719
00:24:08,066 --> 00:24:09,833
If we don't want to use our

720
00:24:09,833 --> 00:24:11,633
players, if we don't want to pay

721
00:24:11,633 --> 00:24:13,100
them and give them their rights,

722
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:14,966
then don't use them in big

723
00:24:14,966 --> 00:24:16,300
business.

724
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:17,433
But we want to have it both

725
00:24:17,433 --> 00:24:18,633
ways.

726
00:24:18,633 --> 00:24:19,833
I think that it is more

727
00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:22,600
unethical than the medical model

728
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,833
of the doctor having control

729
00:24:24,833 --> 00:24:27,166
over the patient because that is

730
00:24:27,166 --> 00:24:28,833
normal.

731
00:24:28,833 --> 00:24:30,066
But the patient at least has

732
00:24:30,066 --> 00:24:32,833
rights, has recourse.

733
00:24:32,833 --> 00:24:34,300
Doctors liability insurance

734
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,533
premiums, if nothing else, will

735
00:24:36,533 --> 00:24:37,900
tell you that the patients have

736
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:39,666
recourse that college athletes

737
00:24:39,666 --> 00:24:41,500
don't.

738
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,633
The easy answer to all of this

739
00:24:44,633 --> 00:24:49,600
is that at big time schools and

740
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,666
universities, students are

741
00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:54,033
students in the classroom and

742
00:24:54,033 --> 00:24:56,733
they're athletes on the field.

743
00:24:56,733 --> 00:24:58,833
They are two separate functions.

744
00:24:58,833 --> 00:25:00,733
You cannot begin to address the

745
00:25:00,733 --> 00:25:02,700
contradictions and manage them

746
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:05,200
until you recognize that they're

747
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,400
different.

748
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,000
That in one case the university

749
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,300
is dispensing value and the

750
00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:11,400
other it is receiving value.

751
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,933
One is a commercial sport

752
00:25:12,933 --> 00:25:14,600
entertainment model; the other

753
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,033
is a university model that

754
00:25:16,033 --> 00:25:18,400
requires clear thinking.

755
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,633
The first evidence of clear

756
00:25:19,633 --> 00:25:20,800
thinking is to be able to

757
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,400
distinguish those things.

758
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,500
It doesn't happen on most

759
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:26,900
university campuses because

760
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:28,400
people are afraid that the whole

761
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,933
system will come crashing down.

762
00:25:31,933 --> 00:25:33,366
It may be that a university like

763
00:25:33,366 --> 00:25:35,533
Wisconsin, if the revenue

764
00:25:35,533 --> 00:25:37,533
athletes had rights, the

765
00:25:37,533 --> 00:25:38,700
university would not want to

766
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:40,500
play those sports.

767
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:41,700
That's fine, but at least you'd

768
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:46,766
be addressing a conflict between

769
00:25:46,766 --> 00:25:47,900
two inherently different

770
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:49,100
functions.

771
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:50,366
It's not so hard.

772
00:25:50,366 --> 00:25:51,566
Most of us play many different

773
00:25:51,566 --> 00:25:52,633
roles.

774
00:25:52,633 --> 00:25:53,700
We're doctors.

775
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:54,733
We're board members.

776
00:25:54,733 --> 00:25:55,866
We're parents.

777
00:25:55,866 --> 00:25:57,033
We play all of these roles, and

778
00:25:57,033 --> 00:25:58,200
we're able to distinguish them

779
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,766
and the standards that they

780
00:25:59,766 --> 00:26:01,200
have.

781
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,400
But for college athletes alone,

782
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,966
we say their role is essentially

783
00:26:05,966 --> 00:26:07,266
defined by what they're doing in

784
00:26:07,266 --> 00:26:09,966
school.

785
00:26:09,966 --> 00:26:11,200
Right now I think most

786
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,300
universities offload their

787
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:14,833
academic responsibility for

788
00:26:14,833 --> 00:26:17,433
college athletes to the NCAA.

789
00:26:17,433 --> 00:26:19,400
The NCAA is not an academic

790
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,766
organization.

791
00:26:21,766 --> 00:26:23,333
It maximizes money.

792
00:26:23,333 --> 00:26:24,833
They're not pretending to say,

793
00:26:24,833 --> 00:26:25,900
oh, well, we'll create more time

794
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:27,333
for studying.

795
00:26:27,333 --> 00:26:28,533
That's your job at the

796
00:26:28,533 --> 00:26:29,900
university.

797
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:31,133
If you admit a student who can't

798
00:26:31,133 --> 00:26:32,900
do work, if you allow students

799
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:34,466
to take too easy courses, if you

800
00:26:34,466 --> 00:26:36,200
go easy on them so that they can

801
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,333
play on the field and represent

802
00:26:38,333 --> 00:26:40,966
your school, that's your fault.

803
00:26:40,966 --> 00:26:44,466
The faculties should have the

804
00:26:44,466 --> 00:26:46,500
integrity to address the

805
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:47,733
academic performance of the

806
00:26:47,733 --> 00:26:49,466
students in the classroom and

807
00:26:49,466 --> 00:26:51,200
then, as members of the

808
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,033
university governing body

809
00:26:53,033 --> 00:26:54,766
dealing with the athletic

810
00:26:54,766 --> 00:26:56,333
department, deal with whether or

811
00:26:56,333 --> 00:26:57,566
not those conflicts are

812
00:26:57,566 --> 00:26:59,166
surmountable and that you want

813
00:26:59,166 --> 00:27:00,600
to have basically those two

814
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,500
enterprises on your same campus.

815
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:05,000
If you do that, then you'll have

816
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,866
an honest system.

817
00:27:06,866 --> 00:27:08,133
Thank you.

818
00:27:08,133 --> 00:27:10,133
[APPLAUSE]

819
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,633
>> All right.

820
00:27:18,633 --> 00:27:20,633
Our next speaker is Professor

821
00:27:20,633 --> 00:27:23,133
Walter Dickey, who has been a

822
00:27:23,133 --> 00:27:26,133
member of the University of

823
00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:27,266
Wisconsin Law School faculty

824
00:27:27,266 --> 00:27:29,633
since 1976 where he was awarded

825
00:27:29,633 --> 00:27:32,500
the George Young Chair.

826
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:34,466
He's had a distinguished career

827
00:27:34,466 --> 00:27:36,766
in the criminal justice system.

828
00:27:36,766 --> 00:27:38,033
He has also chaired the

829
00:27:38,033 --> 00:27:39,433
University of Wisconsin

830
00:27:39,433 --> 00:27:40,933
Athletic Board.

831
00:27:40,933 --> 00:27:42,200
He has served as a

832
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,366
representative, a University of

833
00:27:44,366 --> 00:27:45,600
Wisconsin-Madison faculty

834
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,833
representative to the Big Ten

835
00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:49,666
and to the NCAA.

836
00:27:49,666 --> 00:27:51,466
And he is currently, if I'm

837
00:27:51,466 --> 00:27:53,633
correct, chief of staff for

838
00:27:53,633 --> 00:27:55,366
UW Athletics.

839
00:27:55,366 --> 00:27:56,700
And he's going to speak to us

840
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,133
today about do athletics belong

841
00:27:58,133 --> 00:27:59,766
at a university of the

842
00:27:59,766 --> 00:28:03,033
first rank.

843
00:28:03,033 --> 00:28:05,033
[APPLAUSE]

844
00:28:09,766 --> 00:28:11,266
>> Thank you.

845
00:28:11,266 --> 00:28:12,400
And thanks for the opportunity

846
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,100
to be here.

847
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:16,566
I chose that title, Do Athletics

848
00:28:16,566 --> 00:28:18,033
Belong at a University of the

849
00:28:18,033 --> 00:28:19,933
First Rank, for a couple of

850
00:28:19,933 --> 00:28:21,600
reasons.

851
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,733
One, because I want to answer

852
00:28:24,733 --> 00:28:28,533
the question in part yes, and

853
00:28:28,533 --> 00:28:30,433
use the opportunity to say why,

854
00:28:30,433 --> 00:28:35,333
to sketch what I would say is an

855
00:28:35,333 --> 00:28:37,533
athletic model, one that we've

856
00:28:37,533 --> 00:28:38,800
got here at Wisconsin and that

857
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,100
many other schools have got.

858
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:43,733
But also to add the qualifier,

859
00:28:43,733 --> 00:28:45,766
if it's done in the right way

860
00:28:45,766 --> 00:28:47,466
because I think the qualifier

861
00:28:47,466 --> 00:28:49,466
allows us to explore the need

862
00:28:49,466 --> 00:28:51,633
for reform and perhaps shed a

863
00:28:51,633 --> 00:28:53,400
little bit of light on what the

864
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,533
pathways to reform might be.

865
00:28:57,533 --> 00:29:00,700
Why would athletics belong at a

866
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:02,500
university of the first rank?

867
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:04,266
I think primarily because of the

868
00:29:04,266 --> 00:29:06,333
primacy of education.

869
00:29:06,333 --> 00:29:08,066
If universities are not about

870
00:29:08,066 --> 00:29:09,800
education, they may be about

871
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,133
other things, research and

872
00:29:11,133 --> 00:29:12,733
service, but they certainly have

873
00:29:12,733 --> 00:29:14,466
to be about education.

874
00:29:14,466 --> 00:29:16,866
And if athletics does not have a

875
00:29:16,866 --> 00:29:18,200
key role to play in the

876
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,300
education of both the students

877
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:21,533
athletes as well as other

878
00:29:21,533 --> 00:29:23,100
students, I'm not sure we should

879
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:24,566
have it here or at any other

880
00:29:24,566 --> 00:29:29,600
university like ours.

881
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,766
In law school, I used to talk to

882
00:29:31,766 --> 00:29:34,266
my students about what I was

883
00:29:34,266 --> 00:29:36,566
trying to teach them.

884
00:29:36,566 --> 00:29:39,066
And what I would say was that I

885
00:29:39,066 --> 00:29:41,266
wanted them to leave my class in

886
00:29:41,266 --> 00:29:43,266
a condition I called poised

887
00:29:43,266 --> 00:29:45,600
to learn.

888
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,533
And by that I meant I wanted

889
00:29:47,533 --> 00:29:49,433
them to be positioned to learn

890
00:29:49,433 --> 00:29:51,866
for the rest of their lives,

891
00:29:51,866 --> 00:29:53,700
that that's really the value I

892
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:55,833
could help create for them.

893
00:29:55,833 --> 00:29:57,166
Although, obviously, an awful

894
00:29:57,166 --> 00:29:58,400
lot of the responsibility lay

895
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,266
with them.

896
00:30:00,266 --> 00:30:01,500
And I talked to them and thought

897
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,733
about, well, what is that

898
00:30:02,733 --> 00:30:03,966
condition?

899
00:30:03,966 --> 00:30:05,500
What's poised to learn?

900
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,533
What qualities does it have?

901
00:30:07,533 --> 00:30:09,366
And I obviously asked myself,

902
00:30:09,366 --> 00:30:11,100
what can I do in my teaching

903
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:12,800
endeavors, not just in the

904
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,566
classroom but also in clinical

905
00:30:14,566 --> 00:30:16,933
settings, to put students into

906
00:30:16,933 --> 00:30:21,033
that condition?

907
00:30:21,033 --> 00:30:22,700
Well, what is the condition?

908
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:24,166
How are you going to learn for

909
00:30:24,166 --> 00:30:25,666
the rest of your life?

910
00:30:25,666 --> 00:30:27,866
One way I've sometimes thought

911
00:30:27,866 --> 00:30:30,966
about it is how are you going to

912
00:30:30,966 --> 00:30:32,333
make decisions when there's

913
00:30:32,333 --> 00:30:33,600
nobody around to tell you what

914
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,333
to do.

915
00:30:35,333 --> 00:30:36,833
That's really what is part of

916
00:30:36,833 --> 00:30:38,166
the condition we want our

917
00:30:38,166 --> 00:30:39,366
student athletes and our

918
00:30:39,366 --> 00:30:41,533
students to be in.

919
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:42,566
What are the qualities they

920
00:30:42,566 --> 00:30:43,700
would have?

921
00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:45,100
Well, one is obviously the

922
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:46,633
ability to know stuff.

923
00:30:46,633 --> 00:30:47,700
Knowing stuff is a good starting

924
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:48,833
point.

925
00:30:48,833 --> 00:30:50,033
Although, the world is going to

926
00:30:50,033 --> 00:30:51,566
change, and I don't think

927
00:30:51,566 --> 00:30:52,700
knowing the current world is

928
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:53,833
certainly ever going to be

929
00:30:53,833 --> 00:30:54,933
enough.

930
00:30:54,933 --> 00:30:56,200
Certainly not in law; I doubt in

931
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,400
medicine or in many other

932
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,500
fields.

933
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:00,866
Secondly, they have to have the

934
00:31:00,866 --> 00:31:03,066
ability to communicate.

935
00:31:03,066 --> 00:31:04,900
They have to be able to convey

936
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:08,133
their ideas as well as listen.

937
00:31:08,133 --> 00:31:10,166
They need analytical ability.

938
00:31:10,166 --> 00:31:11,566
They need a sense of confidence

939
00:31:11,566 --> 00:31:12,933
because with confidence they're

940
00:31:12,933 --> 00:31:14,933
willing to undertake endeavors

941
00:31:14,933 --> 00:31:16,133
that they might not otherwise

942
00:31:16,133 --> 00:31:17,866
undertake.

943
00:31:17,866 --> 00:31:19,200
They've got to have some

944
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,300
imagination.

945
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:21,466
They've got to have some

946
00:31:21,466 --> 00:31:22,600
empathy.

947
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,700
If they're going to have

948
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:24,833
judgment, it seems to me they're

949
00:31:24,833 --> 00:31:26,233
going to have this host of

950
00:31:26,233 --> 00:31:27,433
qualities that are going to

951
00:31:27,433 --> 00:31:28,900
allow them to solve problems in

952
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:30,266
the future in their lives

953
00:31:30,266 --> 00:31:31,766
whether they're in professional

954
00:31:31,766 --> 00:31:35,866
or personal.

955
00:31:35,866 --> 00:31:37,633
And I guess the question is, do

956
00:31:37,633 --> 00:31:39,833
athletics afford students the

957
00:31:39,833 --> 00:31:41,733
opportunities to be poised to

958
00:31:41,733 --> 00:31:43,033
learn?

959
00:31:43,033 --> 00:31:44,200
Do they help develop those

960
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,366
qualities?

961
00:31:45,366 --> 00:31:46,766
And I would tell you

962
00:31:46,766 --> 00:31:47,966
emphatically, done the right

963
00:31:47,966 --> 00:31:49,500
way, I think they do.

964
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:51,433
So our student athletes not only

965
00:31:51,433 --> 00:31:53,233
have an opportunity to start to

966
00:31:53,233 --> 00:31:54,766
develop these qualities in the

967
00:31:54,766 --> 00:31:56,400
classrooms where they are but

968
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,433
also on the athletic fields

969
00:31:58,433 --> 00:31:59,633
where they obviously spend a

970
00:31:59,633 --> 00:32:02,200
fair amount of their time.

971
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,500
I think there's some other

972
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:04,833
reasons why we should have

973
00:32:04,833 --> 00:32:06,000
athletics at universities of the

974
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,966
first rank done the right way.

975
00:32:07,966 --> 00:32:09,600
One is one that we're really, I

976
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,500
think, sort of reluctant to talk

977
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:13,466
about.

978
00:32:13,466 --> 00:32:15,400
And that is I view athletics as

979
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,966
a sort of fundamental expression

980
00:32:16,966 --> 00:32:18,533
of the human spirit.

981
00:32:18,533 --> 00:32:19,900
I think athletics have got a lot

982
00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:21,733
in common with ballet, with

983
00:32:21,733 --> 00:32:23,500
dance, with theater, with drama,

984
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:27,200
with art because in them we, the

985
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,800
participants, strive to have an

986
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,600
experience, we might call it

987
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,400
transcendent, that is something

988
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,666
we all strive for throughout

989
00:32:35,666 --> 00:32:36,900
life.

990
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:38,433
We look for it in lots of

991
00:32:38,433 --> 00:32:40,066
different places, in prayer and

992
00:32:40,066 --> 00:32:41,800
poetry and art, but we also

993
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,266
experience it on the playing

994
00:32:43,266 --> 00:32:44,600
fields.

995
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:45,800
And to have people to have the

996
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,900
opportunity to have that

997
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:48,233
experience, if you've ever had

998
00:32:48,233 --> 00:32:49,833
it, is a very special thing and

999
00:32:49,833 --> 00:32:51,200
something that we should want

1000
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,100
young people to have.

1001
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:57,733
As I said, that's not something

1002
00:32:57,733 --> 00:32:59,566
we really like to talk about.

1003
00:32:59,566 --> 00:33:00,966
I sometimes think that the

1004
00:33:00,966 --> 00:33:04,100
popularity of athletics really

1005
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,400
obscures its possibilities.

1006
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,366
There's a certain elitism to the

1007
00:33:09,366 --> 00:33:11,933
anti-athletic sort of tenor of

1008
00:33:11,933 --> 00:33:14,066
things.

1009
00:33:14,066 --> 00:33:16,666
And I don't think that we would

1010
00:33:16,666 --> 00:33:18,100
say the same things about ballet

1011
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:20,100
and theater that we tend to say

1012
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,366
about athletics.

1013
00:33:21,366 --> 00:33:22,700
Although, I would venture to say

1014
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:24,866
they have a lot more in common

1015
00:33:24,866 --> 00:33:26,600
than we're necessarily willing

1016
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,166
to acknowledge.

1017
00:33:28,166 --> 00:33:29,400
I think there are some other

1018
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:30,933
reasons to have athletics on a

1019
00:33:30,933 --> 00:33:33,466
campus such as ours.

1020
00:33:33,466 --> 00:33:36,300
Though, I would also say the

1021
00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:39,666
same things about athletics and

1022
00:33:39,666 --> 00:33:41,033
its regulation as I used to say

1023
00:33:41,033 --> 00:33:42,166
about the criminal justice

1024
00:33:42,166 --> 00:33:43,266
system.

1025
00:33:43,266 --> 00:33:44,400
If you're going to draw up a

1026
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,500
criminal justice system today,

1027
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:46,600
you wouldn't draw up the one

1028
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,200
that we've got, but it is the

1029
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:49,500
one we've got, and if we're

1030
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:50,733
going to make it a better one,

1031
00:33:50,733 --> 00:33:51,766
then we've got to deal with what

1032
00:33:51,766 --> 00:33:53,033
we've got with its

1033
00:33:53,033 --> 00:33:54,300
possibilities, its

1034
00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:55,433
limitations, etc.

1035
00:33:55,433 --> 00:33:56,500
I would say the same thing

1036
00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:57,700
about athletics.

1037
00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:58,900
I don't think if we're going to

1038
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:00,300
draw up the athletic world we

1039
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:01,600
would necessarily draw it up the

1040
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,133
way it is.

1041
00:34:03,133 --> 00:34:04,466
But for all kinds of reasons,

1042
00:34:04,466 --> 00:34:05,833
forces that nobody really

1043
00:34:05,833 --> 00:34:07,266
controls, it has developed in

1044
00:34:07,266 --> 00:34:08,666
the way that it has, and our

1045
00:34:08,666 --> 00:34:09,966
responsibility is to make the

1046
00:34:09,966 --> 00:34:11,866
most of that, or if we can't

1047
00:34:11,866 --> 00:34:14,966
have sufficient value in it,

1048
00:34:14,966 --> 00:34:16,166
then frankly we shouldn't have

1049
00:34:16,166 --> 00:34:18,466
it on a campus such as ours.

1050
00:34:18,466 --> 00:34:19,600
But among the other things that

1051
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,800
I think athletics does is

1052
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,166
provide people with opportunity

1053
00:34:22,166 --> 00:34:24,500
to attend to school and to

1054
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:26,333
participate in athletics and

1055
00:34:26,333 --> 00:34:27,700
enjoy the experiences that I

1056
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:29,866
just very briefly described.

1057
00:34:29,866 --> 00:34:31,533
Just to take Wisconsin as an

1058
00:34:31,533 --> 00:34:33,833
example, you're all probably

1059
00:34:33,833 --> 00:34:35,666
fairly aware of the fact that

1060
00:34:35,666 --> 00:34:37,266
football and basketball and to a

1061
00:34:37,266 --> 00:34:39,300
certain extent men's ice hockey

1062
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:40,666
support the entire athletic

1063
00:34:40,666 --> 00:34:41,900
program at the University of

1064
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:43,300
Wisconsin.

1065
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:45,500
Actually, though, seven out of

1066
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:47,200
eight student athletes are not

1067
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,100
football players or men's

1068
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:50,700
basketball players.

1069
00:34:50,700 --> 00:34:51,833
Most of them are actually

1070
00:34:51,833 --> 00:34:53,633
participating in other sports,

1071
00:34:53,633 --> 00:34:55,866
so-called non-revenue sports.

1072
00:34:55,866 --> 00:34:57,266
A lot of those kids are getting

1073
00:34:57,266 --> 00:34:58,466
scholarships.

1074
00:34:58,466 --> 00:34:59,666
A lot of them are getting the

1075
00:34:59,666 --> 00:35:00,866
opportunity, as I said, to

1076
00:35:00,866 --> 00:35:02,066
participate in athletics.

1077
00:35:02,066 --> 00:35:03,266
They're getting a chance to go

1078
00:35:03,266 --> 00:35:04,600
to school and to come out of

1079
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,433
school if not debt free,

1080
00:35:06,433 --> 00:35:07,800
certainly closer to it than many

1081
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,733
other students are, and there's

1082
00:35:09,733 --> 00:35:11,500
an enormous benefit both to the

1083
00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:13,433
experience and to the fact that

1084
00:35:13,433 --> 00:35:14,800
they're positioned to go on in

1085
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,300
life in ways that they otherwise

1086
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:18,066
might not be.

1087
00:35:18,066 --> 00:35:20,133
I happen to believe we've got a

1088
00:35:20,133 --> 00:35:23,400
moral obligation to provide

1089
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,300
opportunities to women who, if

1090
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:27,933
we were simply doing this on a

1091
00:35:27,933 --> 00:35:29,566
business basis, would not be

1092
00:35:29,566 --> 00:35:30,900
afforded the opportunities

1093
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:32,033
they're being afforded on this

1094
00:35:32,033 --> 00:35:33,100
campus.

1095
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:34,300
We spent about $20 million a

1096
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:36,733
year on women's sports here.

1097
00:35:36,733 --> 00:35:38,000
The revenue generated by those

1098
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,733
sports is relatively small.

1099
00:35:40,733 --> 00:35:43,266
And I personally would say that

1100
00:35:43,266 --> 00:35:44,633
affording students those

1101
00:35:44,633 --> 00:35:45,933
opportunities, whatever their

1102
00:35:45,933 --> 00:35:47,833
gender, whatever their race, is

1103
00:35:47,833 --> 00:35:49,400
a major plus.

1104
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,700
Something that universities

1105
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:52,200
should be about because

1106
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,466
education is at least in part

1107
00:35:54,466 --> 00:35:56,100
about opportunity.

1108
00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:58,066
And if we can create opportunity

1109
00:35:58,066 --> 00:35:59,666
for our young people that they

1110
00:35:59,666 --> 00:36:01,933
otherwise might not have, I

1111
00:36:01,933 --> 00:36:03,433
personally think universities

1112
00:36:03,433 --> 00:36:06,533
should be in that endeavor.

1113
00:36:06,533 --> 00:36:10,366
I want to say a word or two more

1114
00:36:10,366 --> 00:36:12,800
about this financial model

1115
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,300
because I'm not sure it's very

1116
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:15,566
well understood.

1117
00:36:15,566 --> 00:36:16,833
And I want to say a word or two

1118
00:36:16,833 --> 00:36:18,433
also about the legal landscape

1119
00:36:18,433 --> 00:36:24,100
in which athletics exist.

1120
00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:26,300
Wisconsin is, in many ways,

1121
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:28,700
unique in that our athletic

1122
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:30,433
program is self-supporting here.

1123
00:36:30,433 --> 00:36:32,800
The annual budget is

1124
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,033
$100 million a year.

1125
00:36:36,033 --> 00:36:39,433
We generate about $20 million a

1126
00:36:39,433 --> 00:36:41,700
year in donations.

1127
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,100
That is, not revenue from

1128
00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:45,500
television, not revenue from the

1129
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:49,700
conference, not revenue from

1130
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:52,966
ticket sales and the like.

1131
00:36:52,966 --> 00:36:54,833
And we require, obviously, that

1132
00:36:54,833 --> 00:36:56,500
$20 million in donations in

1133
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,433
order to sustain the program and

1134
00:36:58,433 --> 00:37:02,100
keep it at least in the black if

1135
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:05,400
barely so.

1136
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,366
I say that because it puts in

1137
00:37:08,366 --> 00:37:11,400
perspective what I essentially

1138
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,766
would call a revenue transfer.

1139
00:37:14,766 --> 00:37:16,266
We're obviously transferring

1140
00:37:16,266 --> 00:37:19,866
revenue in the athletics program

1141
00:37:19,866 --> 00:37:21,233
from sports that generate money,

1142
00:37:21,233 --> 00:37:22,400
whether its from television or

1143
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:23,800
other things, and we're

1144
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,733
obviously devoting it to sports

1145
00:37:25,733 --> 00:37:27,133
that don't make money in order

1146
00:37:27,133 --> 00:37:28,833
to create opportunities for

1147
00:37:28,833 --> 00:37:31,366
participation.

1148
00:37:31,366 --> 00:37:32,900
In that respect, we have very

1149
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:34,366
much in common with the rest of

1150
00:37:34,366 --> 00:37:35,600
the university.

1151
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:36,866
There are revenue transfers

1152
00:37:36,866 --> 00:37:38,333
going on all over the campus.

1153
00:37:38,333 --> 00:37:39,666
I think anybody who's been here

1154
00:37:39,666 --> 00:37:42,100
for any period of time realizes

1155
00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:43,366
that the sciences, to a great

1156
00:37:43,366 --> 00:37:45,366
extent, are providing support

1157
00:37:45,366 --> 00:37:47,633
for the other side of campus who

1158
00:37:47,633 --> 00:37:49,500
do not generate the revenue that

1159
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,300
would make them, in the words of

1160
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:52,366
the athletic world,

1161
00:37:52,366 --> 00:37:53,800
self-supporting.

1162
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:54,900
There's nothing particularly

1163
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:56,400
unique to athletics about that

1164
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,266
revenue transfer.

1165
00:37:58,266 --> 00:38:00,166
We seem to think with respect to

1166
00:38:00,166 --> 00:38:02,033
the university as a whole, a

1167
00:38:02,033 --> 00:38:03,800
great university requires

1168
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,066
history departments and English

1169
00:38:05,066 --> 00:38:06,666
departments and Portuguese

1170
00:38:06,666 --> 00:38:08,200
departments, departments that

1171
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,066
may not be self-sufficient in

1172
00:38:10,066 --> 00:38:11,433
the way that we've been

1173
00:38:11,433 --> 00:38:12,766
discussing.

1174
00:38:12,766 --> 00:38:14,066
But if we're going to be a great

1175
00:38:14,066 --> 00:38:15,266
university, we should have those

1176
00:38:15,266 --> 00:38:16,466
departments, and those

1177
00:38:16,466 --> 00:38:17,900
departments that do generate

1178
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:19,200
revenue ought to be supporting

1179
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,333
them.

1180
00:38:20,333 --> 00:38:21,633
We feel the same way in

1181
00:38:21,633 --> 00:38:22,966
athletics.

1182
00:38:22,966 --> 00:38:24,200
We are engaging in the same

1183
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,433
kinds of revenue transfers

1184
00:38:25,433 --> 00:38:27,100
because we think opportunities

1185
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,533
ought to be afforded to women

1186
00:38:29,533 --> 00:38:32,200
golfers, women volleyball

1187
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,700
players, male wrestlers, and

1188
00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:36,400
many of the other sports that do

1189
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:42,300
not generate sufficient revenue.

1190
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:44,766
With respect to the legal model,

1191
00:38:44,766 --> 00:38:46,433
it's a really complicated world.

1192
00:38:46,433 --> 00:38:48,966
The legal model, I think, as the

1193
00:38:48,966 --> 00:38:50,333
previous speaker mentioned, is a

1194
00:38:50,333 --> 00:38:51,500
very fluid one.

1195
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:52,666
There are lawsuits going on all

1196
00:38:52,666 --> 00:38:53,966
the time, but I think it's

1197
00:38:53,966 --> 00:38:55,333
important to realize that the

1198
00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:57,233
regulatory environment is really

1199
00:38:57,233 --> 00:38:59,166
a very complex one.

1200
00:38:59,166 --> 00:39:00,866
First of all, realize that the

1201
00:39:00,866 --> 00:39:02,600
regulatory environment beings on

1202
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,900
the campus.

1203
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,233
We have institutional rules, and

1204
00:39:07,233 --> 00:39:09,000
those institutional rules apply

1205
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,400
to athletics.

1206
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,066
They also apply to academics.

1207
00:39:13,066 --> 00:39:15,266
I say that and I emphasize that

1208
00:39:15,266 --> 00:39:19,266
because I want to make a point

1209
00:39:19,266 --> 00:39:22,500
about criticism of conferences

1210
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:24,266
and of the NCAA and their

1211
00:39:24,266 --> 00:39:26,066
application or lack of

1212
00:39:26,066 --> 00:39:27,500
application of academic

1213
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:29,533
standards.

1214
00:39:29,533 --> 00:39:31,333
The fact is the academic

1215
00:39:31,333 --> 00:39:32,933
standards that we have here at

1216
00:39:32,933 --> 00:39:35,400
Wisconsin are for us to make.

1217
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,900
They're for us to regulate.

1218
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:39,666
They're for us to change if we

1219
00:39:39,666 --> 00:39:42,466
wish to change them.

1220
00:39:42,466 --> 00:39:44,900
And so when we hear criticism,

1221
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:46,733
for example, about majors

1222
00:39:46,733 --> 00:39:48,533
shopping or pushing kids into

1223
00:39:48,533 --> 00:39:51,600
majors that they otherwise would

1224
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,233
not be in, I think we need to

1225
00:39:54,233 --> 00:39:56,100
realize that if that's going on,

1226
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:59,066
that's us that's doing that.

1227
00:39:59,066 --> 00:40:00,366
That's being done at the

1228
00:40:00,366 --> 00:40:01,633
institutional level.

1229
00:40:01,633 --> 00:40:03,266
Nobody's making us do that.

1230
00:40:03,266 --> 00:40:05,166
We may think we need to do it to

1231
00:40:05,166 --> 00:40:06,533
remain competitive in this

1232
00:40:06,533 --> 00:40:08,233
environment, but I think we

1233
00:40:08,233 --> 00:40:10,233
sometimes fail to realize that

1234
00:40:10,233 --> 00:40:11,533
responsibility for the

1235
00:40:11,533 --> 00:40:12,866
regulation of athletics at this

1236
00:40:12,866 --> 00:40:15,666
institution is primarily at this

1237
00:40:15,666 --> 00:40:16,933
institution.

1238
00:40:16,933 --> 00:40:18,633
And if we will live up to our

1239
00:40:18,633 --> 00:40:20,333
obligations, we can regulate it

1240
00:40:20,333 --> 00:40:21,566
in ways that I think would make

1241
00:40:21,566 --> 00:40:23,833
us proud, and, quite frankly, I

1242
00:40:23,833 --> 00:40:26,233
think we do.

1243
00:40:26,233 --> 00:40:27,900
I said, though, that it's a

1244
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:30,566
complicated legal environment,

1245
00:40:30,566 --> 00:40:32,000
and obviously the NCAA and the

1246
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,066
conference play vital roles in

1247
00:40:34,066 --> 00:40:38,266
that regulatory environment.

1248
00:40:38,266 --> 00:40:39,800
I think it's also important to

1249
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,200
realize, though, that there's

1250
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,933
federal legislation, Title IX

1251
00:40:42,933 --> 00:40:44,600
for example, that is part of the

1252
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,666
environment that dictate, as I

1253
00:40:47,666 --> 00:40:49,500
said, what I consider to be a

1254
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:51,666
moral obligation but create a

1255
00:40:51,666 --> 00:40:53,300
legal obligation to provide

1256
00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:54,500
opportunity for women that's on

1257
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:56,166
par with the opportunities that

1258
00:40:56,166 --> 00:40:59,666
we afford to men.

1259
00:40:59,666 --> 00:41:01,133
We obviously have got lawsuits

1260
00:41:01,133 --> 00:41:02,233
galore.

1261
00:41:02,233 --> 00:41:03,400
You've got the unionization

1262
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,533
movement.

1263
00:41:04,533 --> 00:41:05,600
We're obviously in a time of

1264
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,833
great fluidity with respect to

1265
00:41:06,833 --> 00:41:09,566
the regulatory environment.

1266
00:41:09,566 --> 00:41:11,800
I can't stress, though, how

1267
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,700
important I think that amidst

1268
00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:16,066
all this fluidity, amidst all

1269
00:41:16,066 --> 00:41:18,233
this complexity, that we find

1270
00:41:18,233 --> 00:41:22,566
some pathways to reform.

1271
00:41:22,566 --> 00:41:23,966
And let me say a couple things

1272
00:41:23,966 --> 00:41:25,900
about the direction that I think

1273
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:30,100
that reform should take.

1274
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:31,633
This now is the 'done the right

1275
00:41:31,633 --> 00:41:34,433
way' part of the talk.

1276
00:41:34,433 --> 00:41:36,133
First of all, I think it's

1277
00:41:36,133 --> 00:41:39,200
unconscionable to accept

1278
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,300
academically inferior

1279
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:42,466
performances from our student

1280
00:41:42,466 --> 00:41:43,600
athletes.

1281
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,266
I just think it's inexcusable.

1282
00:41:45,266 --> 00:41:46,600
There's no reason why a faculty

1283
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,566
such as ours would or should do

1284
00:41:48,566 --> 00:41:49,733
so.

1285
00:41:49,733 --> 00:41:50,866
I think it certainly happens at

1286
00:41:50,866 --> 00:41:51,933
lots of campuses.

1287
00:41:51,933 --> 00:41:53,333
It's undoubtedly happened on

1288
00:41:53,333 --> 00:41:55,233
occasion here.

1289
00:41:55,233 --> 00:41:56,766
But that is, again, something

1290
00:41:56,766 --> 00:41:58,533
that's within our control, if we

1291
00:41:58,533 --> 00:42:00,166
simply have the will and courage

1292
00:42:00,166 --> 00:42:02,566
to deal with it.

1293
00:42:02,566 --> 00:42:04,400
Secondly, the recruiting system

1294
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,933
is badly flawed, as is the

1295
00:42:06,933 --> 00:42:08,600
enforcement system.

1296
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,100
I could really talk for hours

1297
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:13,566
about the need to reform the

1298
00:42:13,566 --> 00:42:15,066
enforcement system.

1299
00:42:15,066 --> 00:42:16,700
We heard some comments from

1300
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:18,166
Professor Branch about the Fifth

1301
00:42:18,166 --> 00:42:19,733
Amendment and about the subpoena

1302
00:42:19,733 --> 00:42:21,166
power and the like.

1303
00:42:21,166 --> 00:42:22,766
The fact of the matter is,

1304
00:42:22,766 --> 00:42:24,633
though, at its core, the

1305
00:42:24,633 --> 00:42:26,066
enforcement system is too slow,

1306
00:42:26,066 --> 00:42:29,700
too unfair, too tied up with

1307
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:32,533
relatively trivial matters and

1308
00:42:32,533 --> 00:42:35,366
not concerned about major and

1309
00:42:35,366 --> 00:42:37,900
significant problems, too slow,

1310
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:39,600
and frankly does too much

1311
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,133
reputational damage to those who

1312
00:42:41,133 --> 00:42:43,266
do not deserve it and not enough

1313
00:42:43,266 --> 00:42:44,766
reputational damage to those who

1314
00:42:44,766 --> 00:42:46,266
do deserve it, the people who

1315
00:42:46,266 --> 00:42:50,700
actually commit the infractions.

1316
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:51,966
I think there are other things

1317
00:42:51,966 --> 00:42:53,466
that really are obviously in

1318
00:42:53,466 --> 00:42:55,533
need of reform.

1319
00:42:55,533 --> 00:42:57,000
I think anybody who watches the

1320
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,600
current scene has to say to

1321
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,000
themselves, how can we

1322
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,633
compensate coaches at the level

1323
00:43:01,633 --> 00:43:03,600
that we compensate them at and

1324
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,066
not provide at the very least

1325
00:43:06,066 --> 00:43:07,333
the full cost of attendance for

1326
00:43:07,333 --> 00:43:08,733
our student athletes?

1327
00:43:08,733 --> 00:43:09,966
That's a fair question.

1328
00:43:09,966 --> 00:43:11,566
I don't even think it's one

1329
00:43:11,566 --> 00:43:13,066
that's deserving of any time

1330
00:43:13,066 --> 00:43:14,233
here.

1331
00:43:14,233 --> 00:43:16,333
I think it's so obvious that if

1332
00:43:16,333 --> 00:43:17,933
we are going to be providing

1333
00:43:17,933 --> 00:43:19,600
young people with full

1334
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,133
scholarships, they essentially

1335
00:43:21,133 --> 00:43:22,266
ought to be leaving this place

1336
00:43:22,266 --> 00:43:24,233
debt free, if not better off

1337
00:43:24,233 --> 00:43:27,700
than that.

1338
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:29,300
If we're really serious about

1339
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:30,466
education, I think we've got to

1340
00:43:30,466 --> 00:43:32,366
make regulatory changes in

1341
00:43:32,366 --> 00:43:35,633
practice schedules and the like.

1342
00:43:35,633 --> 00:43:37,566
For example, there need to be

1343
00:43:37,566 --> 00:43:40,766
dead periods during which

1344
00:43:40,766 --> 00:43:42,433
practice not only cannot be

1345
00:43:42,433 --> 00:43:44,766
required, it is not allowed.

1346
00:43:44,766 --> 00:43:46,133
And one of the reasons we need

1347
00:43:46,133 --> 00:43:47,533
those dead periods is we need to

1348
00:43:47,533 --> 00:43:49,133
give these young people a break

1349
00:43:49,133 --> 00:43:50,500
from the rigors of their

1350
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:52,133
athletic endeavors but also

1351
00:43:52,133 --> 00:43:53,500
because we need to create

1352
00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:55,433
opportunities for them to have

1353
00:43:55,433 --> 00:43:57,433
internships, to study abroad, to

1354
00:43:57,433 --> 00:43:59,433
do the many things that other

1355
00:43:59,433 --> 00:44:00,800
students have the opportunity to

1356
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,833
do that they, quite frankly, are

1357
00:44:02,833 --> 00:44:04,766
not always necessarily allowed

1358
00:44:04,766 --> 00:44:05,866
to do because of their

1359
00:44:05,866 --> 00:44:09,833
commitment to their sports.

1360
00:44:09,833 --> 00:44:11,633
Now, there are other things that

1361
00:44:11,633 --> 00:44:14,633
I would say by way of this.

1362
00:44:14,633 --> 00:44:16,000
Health and safety is another one

1363
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,033
that I think really doesn't

1364
00:44:18,033 --> 00:44:19,266
require very much in the way of

1365
00:44:19,266 --> 00:44:20,833
comment.

1366
00:44:20,833 --> 00:44:22,433
I just don't think it's

1367
00:44:22,433 --> 00:44:25,533
debatable that there needs to be

1368
00:44:25,533 --> 00:44:27,100
a far better job done on the

1369
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:29,733
health and safety issue with

1370
00:44:29,733 --> 00:44:31,466
respect to student athletes, and

1371
00:44:31,466 --> 00:44:33,066
we've got to be concerned about

1372
00:44:33,066 --> 00:44:34,666
their health after they leave

1373
00:44:34,666 --> 00:44:36,633
here and try to make provision

1374
00:44:36,633 --> 00:44:39,666
so that that health is insured

1375
00:44:39,666 --> 00:44:41,966
or cared for because the idea

1376
00:44:41,966 --> 00:44:43,466
that they would suffer some

1377
00:44:43,466 --> 00:44:45,233
injury, whether it's a use

1378
00:44:45,233 --> 00:44:46,833
injury or some other kind of

1379
00:44:46,833 --> 00:44:48,300
injury, while they're playing

1380
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,600
sports here and not have the

1381
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,666
cost of continued treatment for

1382
00:44:53,666 --> 00:44:55,466
that after they leave here just

1383
00:44:55,466 --> 00:44:57,133
seems to me to be sort of

1384
00:44:57,133 --> 00:45:00,633
unthinkable.

1385
00:45:00,633 --> 00:45:02,366
One way of putting it then is

1386
00:45:02,366 --> 00:45:04,833
that we do need to spend money

1387
00:45:04,833 --> 00:45:07,033
in different ways in athletics.

1388
00:45:07,033 --> 00:45:09,266
I would say that we need to

1389
00:45:09,266 --> 00:45:10,966
direct the spending of that

1390
00:45:10,966 --> 00:45:12,566
money towards the kids.

1391
00:45:12,566 --> 00:45:15,266
We need to make the kids first.

1392
00:45:15,266 --> 00:45:16,500
And I'm not sure that we're

1393
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:17,833
necessarily doing that anywhere

1394
00:45:17,833 --> 00:45:19,100
close to the degree that we

1395
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:25,433
should.

1396
00:45:25,433 --> 00:45:28,300
I guess I'd conclude here, since

1397
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,233
I think my time is probably sort

1398
00:45:31,233 --> 00:45:33,033
of running out, with a couple of

1399
00:45:33,033 --> 00:45:37,833
observations.

1400
00:45:37,833 --> 00:45:41,700
When I was introduced, you

1401
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:44,033
weren't told that I actually ran

1402
00:45:44,033 --> 00:45:45,633
the prison system here for some

1403
00:45:45,633 --> 00:45:46,766
time.

1404
00:45:46,766 --> 00:45:48,400
I took a leave of absence from

1405
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,833
the university to do so.

1406
00:45:50,833 --> 00:45:52,966
And I did it at a time, just to

1407
00:45:52,966 --> 00:45:54,266
give you sort of some

1408
00:45:54,266 --> 00:45:55,933
perspective, when the prison

1409
00:45:55,933 --> 00:45:57,133
population in this state was

1410
00:45:57,133 --> 00:45:58,833
5,000.

1411
00:45:58,833 --> 00:46:00,766
We had 5,000 inmates.

1412
00:46:00,766 --> 00:46:03,966
Now we have 22,000.

1413
00:46:03,966 --> 00:46:05,333
And I think the fact that we've

1414
00:46:05,333 --> 00:46:08,600
gone from 5,000 to 22,000 is

1415
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,833
about as disappointing a

1416
00:46:09,833 --> 00:46:11,200
development in my professional

1417
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,033
life or in my world as I can

1418
00:46:13,033 --> 00:46:15,200
imagine.

1419
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,666
I naively believed at the time

1420
00:46:18,666 --> 00:46:21,100
that that trend was starting

1421
00:46:21,100 --> 00:46:24,600
that good sense, that clarity,

1422
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,366
that providing information about

1423
00:46:26,366 --> 00:46:27,533
the consequences of the

1424
00:46:27,533 --> 00:46:30,266
direction of policy with respect

1425
00:46:30,266 --> 00:46:32,266
to the mentally ill, with

1426
00:46:32,266 --> 00:46:33,833
respect to young people, with

1427
00:46:33,833 --> 00:46:35,566
respect to people who come from

1428
00:46:35,566 --> 00:46:37,533
disadvantaged backgrounds would

1429
00:46:37,533 --> 00:46:40,266
actually lead Wisconsin and

1430
00:46:40,266 --> 00:46:44,833
other states to make better

1431
00:46:44,833 --> 00:46:47,666
sense of its corrections policy.

1432
00:46:47,666 --> 00:46:48,866
It obviously did not turn out

1433
00:46:48,866 --> 00:46:50,766
that way.

1434
00:46:50,766 --> 00:46:51,833
And one of the things that I

1435
00:46:51,833 --> 00:46:53,366
learned from that was that the

1436
00:46:53,366 --> 00:46:55,266
deeper currents in our society

1437
00:46:55,266 --> 00:46:56,433
that were pushing us in the

1438
00:46:56,433 --> 00:46:58,066
direction we went with respect

1439
00:46:58,066 --> 00:46:59,866
to corrections policy were far

1440
00:46:59,866 --> 00:47:02,333
more powerful than good sense

1441
00:47:02,333 --> 00:47:04,933
information, at least as it was

1442
00:47:04,933 --> 00:47:09,400
presented in those days.

1443
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,066
And I think it's fair to say

1444
00:47:13,066 --> 00:47:14,200
that we've got deep currents in

1445
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,000
our society that are certainly

1446
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,700
pushing us towards greater

1447
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:21,233
competitiveness, globalization.

1448
00:47:21,233 --> 00:47:23,600
I don't want to sort of be a

1449
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,366
sour old puss and say me first,

1450
00:47:25,366 --> 00:47:27,366
but you can't help but notice

1451
00:47:27,366 --> 00:47:29,033
the popularity of selfies and

1452
00:47:29,033 --> 00:47:32,666
the like and how important the

1453
00:47:32,666 --> 00:47:34,033
individual is.

1454
00:47:34,033 --> 00:47:36,266
Maybe that's a good thing.

1455
00:47:36,266 --> 00:47:37,466
The question that it leaves me

1456
00:47:37,466 --> 00:47:39,066
with is, whatever happened to

1457
00:47:39,066 --> 00:47:41,566
the good old common good?

1458
00:47:41,566 --> 00:47:43,266
Maybe I was brought up in a time

1459
00:47:43,266 --> 00:47:45,866
when the common good was the

1460
00:47:45,866 --> 00:47:48,800
naive belief of people like me,

1461
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,000
but it seems to me our

1462
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,500
commitment to that is really

1463
00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:52,966
sort of eroded.

1464
00:47:52,966 --> 00:47:54,433
And I worry, quite honestly,

1465
00:47:54,433 --> 00:47:55,833
that what we're going to see

1466
00:47:55,833 --> 00:47:57,400
with respect to athletics is

1467
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:58,633
sort of further erosion of what

1468
00:47:58,633 --> 00:47:59,866
I would think of as the common

1469
00:47:59,866 --> 00:48:01,266
good because I think the

1470
00:48:01,266 --> 00:48:02,900
creation of opportunity, I think

1471
00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:05,166
the provision of education

1472
00:48:05,166 --> 00:48:07,166
really has got payoffs far

1473
00:48:07,166 --> 00:48:09,366
beyond the immediate ones or the

1474
00:48:09,366 --> 00:48:10,700
immediate benefits that people

1475
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:12,100
realize for them, not only for

1476
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:13,900
those individuals but also for

1477
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:15,800
all of us.

1478
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,300
Thank you.

1479
00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:19,300
[APPLAUSE]

1480
00:48:29,833 --> 00:48:31,300
>> So, do we have some

1481
00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:33,100
questions?

1482
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:37,000
All right, yes.

1483
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,866
>> I wonder if both of you could

1484
00:48:38,866 --> 00:48:40,300
comment on something that

1485
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:44,166
neither one of you addressed.

1486
00:48:44,166 --> 00:48:45,700
There are a number of people in

1487
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:47,000
the past, including

1488
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,500
Rick Telander, who wrote a

1489
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:49,966
book in 1989 called

1490
00:48:49,966 --> 00:48:52,033
The Hundred Yard Lie,  and he

1491
00:48:52,033 --> 00:48:53,566
suggested that athletes be paid,

1492
00:48:53,566 --> 00:48:55,066
and there were numerous reasons

1493
00:48:55,066 --> 00:48:56,200
he gave in the book.

1494
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,366
One of them is that we serve as

1495
00:48:58,366 --> 00:49:00,833
a farm club for the NBA and the

1496
00:49:00,833 --> 00:49:02,633
NFL.

1497
00:49:02,633 --> 00:49:04,733
Major League Baseball pays for

1498
00:49:04,733 --> 00:49:06,700
their own farm club.

1499
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,033
Why aren't they paying us for

1500
00:49:08,033 --> 00:49:09,466
some of the athletes that we are

1501
00:49:09,466 --> 00:49:11,366
grooming for professional

1502
00:49:11,366 --> 00:49:13,033
sports?

1503
00:49:13,033 --> 00:49:14,366
But could you comment on paying

1504
00:49:14,366 --> 00:49:15,400
the athletes?

1505
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:16,700
>> Sure.

1506
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:18,966
I'd just go first by saying

1507
00:49:18,966 --> 00:49:20,800
this, first of all, I don't

1508
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,133
think paying the athletes is

1509
00:49:22,133 --> 00:49:23,300
what we should do.

1510
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:24,633
As I said, I think we need to be

1511
00:49:24,633 --> 00:49:25,833
spending money in different

1512
00:49:25,833 --> 00:49:27,000
ways, but that would not be the

1513
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,166
way that I would do it.

1514
00:49:28,166 --> 00:49:29,200
And the reason I think that is

1515
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,200
I think it detracts from

1516
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:31,400
education.

1517
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:32,866
I think if you have a

1518
00:49:32,866 --> 00:49:34,233
professional model, education is

1519
00:49:34,233 --> 00:49:36,133
going to become more secondary

1520
00:49:36,133 --> 00:49:38,133
than it is at so many schools

1521
00:49:38,133 --> 00:49:39,866
and that we have really got to

1522
00:49:39,866 --> 00:49:41,566
focus more on education, not

1523
00:49:41,566 --> 00:49:43,666
less on education.

1524
00:49:43,666 --> 00:49:47,300
Now, secondly, I think that if

1525
00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:49,200
young people want to turn

1526
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,600
professional, they ought to have

1527
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:51,900
every opportunity to turn

1528
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:53,233
professional as soon as they

1529
00:49:53,233 --> 00:49:55,533
want to and can.

1530
00:49:55,533 --> 00:49:57,166
The 'one and done' rule is not

1531
00:49:57,166 --> 00:49:58,433
an NCAA rule; that's

1532
00:49:58,433 --> 00:50:03,333
an NBA rule.

1533
00:50:03,333 --> 00:50:06,300
Maurice Clarett, the Ohio State

1534
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:08,433
tailback who sued because he

1535
00:50:08,433 --> 00:50:09,933
wanted to be able to play

1536
00:50:09,933 --> 00:50:11,400
professionally but the NFL had a

1537
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,233
rule that forbade him from doing

1538
00:50:13,233 --> 00:50:14,700
so until he completed so many

1539
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:16,133
years after his high school

1540
00:50:16,133 --> 00:50:17,333
class.

1541
00:50:17,333 --> 00:50:18,733
That's an NFL rule.

1542
00:50:18,733 --> 00:50:20,266
That's obviously not a

1543
00:50:20,266 --> 00:50:23,333
university rule.

1544
00:50:23,333 --> 00:50:24,933
My personal attitude is if

1545
00:50:24,933 --> 00:50:26,500
people want to be professional,

1546
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:27,766
then they ought to have

1547
00:50:27,766 --> 00:50:28,900
professional opportunities.

1548
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:30,666
I don't know why universities

1549
00:50:30,666 --> 00:50:32,500
have the obligation for creating

1550
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:34,166
professional teams or

1551
00:50:34,166 --> 00:50:35,800
professional student athletes.

1552
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,000
That's not our job.

1553
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,200
>> I would simply say that

1554
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,533
universities have created

1555
00:50:42,533 --> 00:50:45,366
professional sports already.

1556
00:50:45,366 --> 00:50:46,500
All you have to do is look at

1557
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:47,633
the contracts and the TV

1558
00:50:47,633 --> 00:50:48,833
ratings.

1559
00:50:48,833 --> 00:50:50,400
The question is, what is the

1560
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,433
distribution of that revenue?

1561
00:50:53,433 --> 00:50:55,000
And I'm not saying that athletes

1562
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,166
should be paid, but I am saying

1563
00:50:57,166 --> 00:50:58,500
that they should have a right to

1564
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:00,566
ask for payment and we should

1565
00:51:00,566 --> 00:51:03,366
have the obligation not simply

1566
00:51:03,366 --> 00:51:05,100
to assume that we're dispensing

1567
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,100
something benevolently to them

1568
00:51:07,100 --> 00:51:08,433
but to look them in the eye and

1569
00:51:08,433 --> 00:51:11,133
say you don't deserve a say in

1570
00:51:11,133 --> 00:51:13,033
that decision and if you ask for

1571
00:51:13,033 --> 00:51:15,300
it, we're going to blacken you.

1572
00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:16,633
And that's what I'm saying is

1573
00:51:16,633 --> 00:51:19,233
hard.

1574
00:51:19,233 --> 00:51:20,633
It's hard to justify.

1575
00:51:20,633 --> 00:51:23,100
Every time it's been challenged

1576
00:51:23,100 --> 00:51:25,100
when adults are involved, the

1577
00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:26,266
Supreme Court and the football

1578
00:51:26,266 --> 00:51:28,233
schools, NCAA tried to restrict

1579
00:51:28,233 --> 00:51:31,366
the pay of assistant coaches a

1580
00:51:31,366 --> 00:51:32,400
few years ago.

1581
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,600
That went all the way to the

1582
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:34,666
Supreme Court.

1583
00:51:34,666 --> 00:51:35,766
Assistant coaches said that's

1584
00:51:35,766 --> 00:51:36,766
un-American and they won and

1585
00:51:36,766 --> 00:51:38,233
they collected a $54 million

1586
00:51:38,233 --> 00:51:39,533
judgment.

1587
00:51:39,533 --> 00:51:41,366
So when adults are involved,

1588
00:51:41,366 --> 00:51:42,400
it's already a professional

1589
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:43,466
system.

1590
00:51:43,466 --> 00:51:44,666
The question is how it's run and

1591
00:51:44,666 --> 00:51:45,966
what rights, if any, the

1592
00:51:45,966 --> 00:51:47,766
essential talent have.

1593
00:51:47,766 --> 00:51:48,900
Right now they have no place at

1594
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:50,166
the table.

1595
00:51:50,166 --> 00:51:51,400
I think that it's hard to

1596
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:52,700
explain to them why they don't

1597
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,600
have a place at the table.

1598
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,100
People say the world would fall

1599
00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:58,633
apart, but that's what they said

1600
00:51:58,633 --> 00:52:00,066
about the Olympics which were

1601
00:52:00,066 --> 00:52:02,900
actually even less professional

1602
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:04,266
than college sports are now.

1603
00:52:04,266 --> 00:52:06,800
The old AAU Olympics said that

1604
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,100
college sports were already

1605
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:09,433
whores because they're paying

1606
00:52:09,433 --> 00:52:12,133
them with scholarships.

1607
00:52:12,133 --> 00:52:15,266
But when athletes were given a

1608
00:52:15,266 --> 00:52:17,466
seat at the table on the Olympic

1609
00:52:17,466 --> 00:52:19,666
committees by law, amateurism

1610
00:52:19,666 --> 00:52:21,700
vanished in the Olympics

1611
00:52:21,700 --> 00:52:23,700
by 1986.

1612
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:27,533
So these things, it's just a

1613
00:52:27,533 --> 00:52:29,366
question of whether you address

1614
00:52:29,366 --> 00:52:30,566
the rights.

1615
00:52:30,566 --> 00:52:32,300
I'm not saying that if there

1616
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:34,566
were a functioning market for

1617
00:52:34,566 --> 00:52:35,866
revenue athletes that it

1618
00:52:35,866 --> 00:52:37,200
wouldn't have profound effects.

1619
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,400
I think it would drain money

1620
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:39,600
from coaches.

1621
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:40,733
I think it would drain money out

1622
00:52:40,733 --> 00:52:41,966
of some of the non-revenue

1623
00:52:41,966 --> 00:52:43,000
sports.

1624
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,566
It would force the universities

1625
00:52:44,566 --> 00:52:45,733
to have painful decisions, one

1626
00:52:45,733 --> 00:52:47,166
of which may be not to have them

1627
00:52:47,166 --> 00:52:48,300
like most of the other great

1628
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:49,800
universities in the world don't

1629
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,200
have these sports.

1630
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,000
But at least those would be

1631
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,066
honest decisions.

1632
00:52:55,066 --> 00:52:56,633
The volleyball team and the swim

1633
00:52:56,633 --> 00:53:00,033
team and the field hockey team

1634
00:53:00,033 --> 00:53:02,333
existed at Wisconsin, I bet,

1635
00:53:02,333 --> 00:53:04,433
before the age of television.

1636
00:53:04,433 --> 00:53:05,633
People figured out how to pay

1637
00:53:05,633 --> 00:53:06,833
for them then.

1638
00:53:06,833 --> 00:53:07,966
They as a community decided how

1639
00:53:07,966 --> 00:53:08,966
to do it.

1640
00:53:08,966 --> 00:53:10,233
What has happened is that we've

1641
00:53:10,233 --> 00:53:11,733
gotten seduced into

1642
00:53:11,733 --> 00:53:13,366
expropriating all this money

1643
00:53:13,366 --> 00:53:14,900
from the revenue athletes that

1644
00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:16,566
we then dispense as we want to

1645
00:53:16,566 --> 00:53:19,366
do and say we need this

1646
00:53:19,366 --> 00:53:21,266
distribution model because

1647
00:53:21,266 --> 00:53:22,300
otherwise it would be

1648
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:23,633
disruptive.

1649
00:53:23,633 --> 00:53:25,633
That's not a good enough answer.

1650
00:53:33,833 --> 00:53:35,633
>> A question for Walter.

1651
00:53:35,633 --> 00:53:37,066
You said that the university has

1652
00:53:37,066 --> 00:53:38,633
to be or should be responsible

1653
00:53:38,633 --> 00:53:39,966
for taking academics seriously,

1654
00:53:39,966 --> 00:53:41,700
and six years on the athletic

1655
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:43,133
board I've been tremendously

1656
00:53:43,133 --> 00:53:45,233
impressed how seriously the

1657
00:53:45,233 --> 00:53:46,600
school and the department do

1658
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,100
take it, but it's obviously a

1659
00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:50,566
farce at many other places.

1660
00:53:50,566 --> 00:53:52,366
And so universities just don't,

1661
00:53:52,366 --> 00:53:53,866
many don't, and there's no

1662
00:53:53,866 --> 00:53:55,533
consequence.

1663
00:53:55,533 --> 00:53:56,800
So if you think that that's

1664
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,233
really one of the essential

1665
00:53:58,233 --> 00:53:59,766
components of having an elite

1666
00:53:59,766 --> 00:54:01,766
program, how do we get from here

1667
00:54:01,766 --> 00:54:03,800
to there without having the NCAA

1668
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,733
or somebody else enforcing it,

1669
00:54:05,733 --> 00:54:07,100
which they claim they don't have

1670
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:09,100
enough funds to do?

1671
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:10,766
>> I think the NCAA and the

1672
00:54:10,766 --> 00:54:13,066
conference, perhaps more the

1673
00:54:13,066 --> 00:54:14,666
conference depending on which

1674
00:54:14,666 --> 00:54:17,233
conference we're talking about,

1675
00:54:17,233 --> 00:54:20,733
can play a profound role in both

1676
00:54:20,733 --> 00:54:22,166
raising academic standards,

1677
00:54:22,166 --> 00:54:23,533
insuring that there's academic

1678
00:54:23,533 --> 00:54:26,500
integrity, and doing other

1679
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:27,700
things to enhance the

1680
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:28,933
educational experience of

1681
00:54:28,933 --> 00:54:30,500
students at a sort of larger

1682
00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:32,633
regulatory level.

1683
00:54:32,633 --> 00:54:34,333
I think NCAA action is

1684
00:54:34,333 --> 00:54:36,066
absolutely essential.

1685
00:54:36,066 --> 00:54:38,600
For example, one of the things

1686
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,000
that's been discussed is the

1687
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,333
whole idea of an academic red

1688
00:54:41,333 --> 00:54:42,766
shirt.

1689
00:54:42,766 --> 00:54:44,200
That would be you could have

1690
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,900
scholarship but you couldn't

1691
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:47,500
play the sport because the

1692
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:49,600
thought was there was need for

1693
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,033
attention to your academics

1694
00:54:51,033 --> 00:54:52,233
during your first year at the

1695
00:54:52,233 --> 00:54:54,033
institution.

1696
00:54:54,033 --> 00:54:55,333
That obviously has got financial

1697
00:54:55,333 --> 00:54:56,866
implications.

1698
00:54:56,866 --> 00:54:58,666
We would support that model, but

1699
00:54:58,666 --> 00:55:00,366
I think the idea that any

1700
00:55:00,366 --> 00:55:02,000
institution could unilaterally

1701
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,100
put it into place strikes me

1702
00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:06,533
as a bit unrealistic.

1703
00:55:06,533 --> 00:55:08,300
So there is no doubt that both

1704
00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:10,233
conference and NCAA regulation

1705
00:55:10,233 --> 00:55:11,900
would be necessary if you're

1706
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:14,600
going to have greater integrity

1707
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,233
in academics and in academic

1708
00:55:17,233 --> 00:55:18,566
expectations.

1709
00:55:18,566 --> 00:55:19,933
Some are rule changes of the

1710
00:55:19,933 --> 00:55:21,600
kind that I just described.

1711
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,800
Some of it, though, really is,

1712
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,166
in my view, a need for

1713
00:55:26,166 --> 00:55:28,333
institutional control models

1714
00:55:28,333 --> 00:55:29,733
that give the conference and the

1715
00:55:29,733 --> 00:55:33,566
NCAA true regulatory authority

1716
00:55:33,566 --> 00:55:35,533
over institutional control.

1717
00:55:35,533 --> 00:55:37,066
The Big Ten has made, I think,

1718
00:55:37,066 --> 00:55:39,166
some very substantial steps to

1719
00:55:39,166 --> 00:55:41,666
try to bring greater integrity

1720
00:55:41,666 --> 00:55:44,100
into both compliance academics,

1721
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:45,700
and actually medicine is the

1722
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:47,133
third category that has been

1723
00:55:47,133 --> 00:55:49,266
subject to special scrutiny.

1724
00:55:49,266 --> 00:55:50,466
So I think it's going to be that

1725
00:55:50,466 --> 00:55:51,833
sort of an interplay norm

1726
00:55:51,833 --> 00:55:53,566
between institutional

1727
00:55:53,566 --> 00:55:55,466
responsibility but also,

1728
00:55:55,466 --> 00:55:57,500
obviously, conference and NCAA

1729
00:55:57,500 --> 00:55:58,633
responsibility.

1730
00:55:58,633 --> 00:56:00,033
I mentioned the institutional

1731
00:56:00,033 --> 00:56:01,700
control point because that's a

1732
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:04,533
way of, in a sense, making the

1733
00:56:04,533 --> 00:56:07,000
individual institutions comply

1734
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,466
by auditing in the -- sort of a

1735
00:56:09,466 --> 00:56:10,966
way to see to it that they're

1736
00:56:10,966 --> 00:56:13,100
actually living up to the claims

1737
00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:14,266
that they're making about their

1738
00:56:14,266 --> 00:56:16,266
academic situations.

1739
00:56:20,033 --> 00:56:21,700
>> Hi.

1740
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:22,833
I'm Zach Bohannon, MBA student a

1741
00:56:22,833 --> 00:56:24,166
former member of the men's

1742
00:56:24,166 --> 00:56:26,166
basketball team.

1743
00:56:26,166 --> 00:56:27,400
I have a quick question--

1744
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:28,400
[APPLAUSE]

1745
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,466
Thank you.

1746
00:56:30,466 --> 00:56:31,633
I just had a quick question just

1747
00:56:31,633 --> 00:56:33,000
to hear both of your sides on

1748
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,366
the whole students being signed

1749
00:56:35,366 --> 00:56:36,833
over through the national letter

1750
00:56:36,833 --> 00:56:38,500
of intent, their name, image,

1751
00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:39,966
and likeness for the whole

1752
00:56:39,966 --> 00:56:41,833
university to have and the NCAA

1753
00:56:41,833 --> 00:56:43,200
to have for the rest of their

1754
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,533
careers until their eligibility

1755
00:56:44,533 --> 00:56:46,066
is completed.

1756
00:56:46,066 --> 00:56:47,266
I just want to hear what your

1757
00:56:47,266 --> 00:56:49,266
guys' take on that issue is.

1758
00:56:55,933 --> 00:56:57,866
>> I hesitate to say that

1759
00:56:57,866 --> 00:56:59,533
because I'm scheduled to be a

1760
00:56:59,533 --> 00:57:01,966
witness in the trial on that

1761
00:57:01,966 --> 00:57:07,400
because it is a--

1762
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,566
You can't play if

1763
00:57:08,566 --> 00:57:10,133
you don't do it.

1764
00:57:10,133 --> 00:57:11,666
It has no basis in law.

1765
00:57:11,666 --> 00:57:12,800
It's something that the NCAA

1766
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,733
enforces.

1767
00:57:16,733 --> 00:57:17,933
They make money off of it.

1768
00:57:17,933 --> 00:57:21,166
It's being challenged.

1769
00:57:21,166 --> 00:57:22,366
And I think it's going to be

1770
00:57:22,366 --> 00:57:23,600
pretty hard to justify.

1771
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,233
Already one of the defendants

1772
00:57:25,233 --> 00:57:28,700
has settled for $40 million to

1773
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:31,033
stop selling these videos

1774
00:57:31,033 --> 00:57:32,700
because there's a lot of money

1775
00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:34,666
involved and the athletes have

1776
00:57:34,666 --> 00:57:36,800
none by virtue of this signature

1777
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,166
that has to be signed every

1778
00:57:39,166 --> 00:57:40,633
year.

1779
00:57:40,633 --> 00:57:42,400
Scholarships have to be renewed

1780
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:43,466
every year.

1781
00:57:43,466 --> 00:57:44,700
They don't have to be, but they

1782
00:57:44,700 --> 00:57:45,800
can be.

1783
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:46,933
If you don't sign it, you don't

1784
00:57:46,933 --> 00:57:48,000
play.

1785
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,133
So the whole question before the

1786
00:57:49,133 --> 00:57:50,500
courts is, is that a foreclosed

1787
00:57:50,500 --> 00:57:51,633
market?

1788
00:57:51,633 --> 00:57:56,266
Is that fair or is it not?

1789
00:57:56,266 --> 00:57:58,800
Again, when similar things have

1790
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,366
been challenged where the rights

1791
00:58:01,366 --> 00:58:04,833
of adults, non-players, are

1792
00:58:04,833 --> 00:58:06,033
concerned, the courts have ruled

1793
00:58:06,033 --> 00:58:07,733
that they're unfair.

1794
00:58:07,733 --> 00:58:09,400
I don't see how they'll be any

1795
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,066
different here.

1796
00:58:12,066 --> 00:58:15,166
And my guess is that

1797
00:58:15,166 --> 00:58:17,433
Mr. O'Bannon has a pretty strong

1798
00:58:17,433 --> 00:58:19,600
case.

1799
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,833
>> I became aware of that rule

1800
00:58:21,833 --> 00:58:23,533
when I attended my first Big Ten

1801
00:58:23,533 --> 00:58:25,500
meeting, and my initial reaction

1802
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:27,966
to it was: that's not right.

1803
00:58:27,966 --> 00:58:31,166
That's not fair.

1804
00:58:31,166 --> 00:58:33,433
And I continue to feel that way.

1805
00:58:33,433 --> 00:58:35,100
Now, having said that, I think

1806
00:58:35,100 --> 00:58:38,100
one of the things that is worth

1807
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:40,533
exploring a little bit, take the

1808
00:58:40,533 --> 00:58:43,833
jersey with the name on it, one

1809
00:58:43,833 --> 00:58:45,233
of the questions that's worth

1810
00:58:45,233 --> 00:58:48,033
exploring is this question of

1811
00:58:48,033 --> 00:58:50,066
how do you value University of

1812
00:58:50,066 --> 00:58:52,266
Wisconsin and then the name of

1813
00:58:52,266 --> 00:58:54,300
the individual player.

1814
00:58:54,300 --> 00:58:56,333
Because obviously the fact that

1815
00:58:56,333 --> 00:58:57,633
it's the University of

1816
00:58:57,633 --> 00:58:58,933
Wisconsin, the brand, not a word

1817
00:58:58,933 --> 00:59:01,133
that I like, matters a lot and

1818
00:59:01,133 --> 00:59:02,700
adds a lot of value to whatever

1819
00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:05,600
the sale price of that is.

1820
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:06,766
But that's more a question of

1821
00:59:06,766 --> 00:59:08,166
detail.

1822
00:59:08,166 --> 00:59:09,433
Just to sort of alert you to the

1823
00:59:09,433 --> 00:59:11,133
question of deciding how much

1824
00:59:11,133 --> 00:59:12,433
it's actually worth is not

1825
00:59:12,433 --> 00:59:13,766
necessarily such an easy thing

1826
00:59:13,766 --> 00:59:15,033
to do.

1827
00:59:15,033 --> 00:59:17,900
But my own personal opinion is

1828
00:59:17,900 --> 00:59:21,266
that limiting student athletes

1829
00:59:21,266 --> 00:59:25,000
on this count is wrong.

1830
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:26,800
And I might maybe use the

1831
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:32,100
opportunity to say that had I

1832
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:33,533
had more time in my

1833
00:59:33,533 --> 00:59:34,833
presentation, one of the reforms

1834
00:59:34,833 --> 00:59:36,266
I would have said we need is

1835
00:59:36,266 --> 00:59:37,800
student athletes with a voice at

1836
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,566
the table.

1837
00:59:39,566 --> 00:59:41,100
Again, I don't think unions are

1838
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:43,200
necessarily in their interest.

1839
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:44,433
Though, I could be wrong about

1840
00:59:44,433 --> 00:59:45,866
that because that's a much more

1841
00:59:45,866 --> 00:59:47,100
complex world than I think

1842
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:49,233
people may realize.

1843
00:59:49,233 --> 00:59:51,333
But, quite frankly, given, and I

1844
00:59:51,333 --> 00:59:53,333
hesitate to comment on history

1845
00:59:53,333 --> 00:59:55,066
in the presence of

1846
00:59:55,066 --> 00:59:57,033
Taylor Branch, but it looks to

1847
00:59:57,033 --> 00:59:58,666
me like the direction of history

1848
00:59:58,666 --> 01:00:00,433
here is clearly towards greater

1849
01:00:00,433 --> 01:00:03,133
participation by stakeholders or

1850
01:00:03,133 --> 01:00:04,433
however you want to characterize

1851
01:00:04,433 --> 01:00:05,833
them, and student athletes

1852
01:00:05,833 --> 01:00:07,166
certainly deserve a voice at the

1853
01:00:07,166 --> 01:00:08,500
table as the issues that we've

1854
01:00:08,500 --> 01:00:10,033
been talking about here today

1855
01:00:10,033 --> 01:00:13,733
are worked through.

1856
01:00:13,733 --> 01:00:15,200
>> Jim Clearly, and I feel like

1857
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:16,666
one of those commercials during

1858
01:00:16,666 --> 01:00:18,200
the basketball.

1859
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:19,600
I played Australian rules

1860
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,033
football.

1861
01:00:21,033 --> 01:00:22,700
Former member of the -- Blacks

1862
01:00:22,700 --> 01:00:25,233
in 1982.

1863
01:00:25,233 --> 01:00:27,433
But anyway, Taylor, could you

1864
01:00:27,433 --> 01:00:28,900
comment on what we can learn

1865
01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:31,466
from other global campuses,

1866
01:00:31,466 --> 01:00:33,066
institutions?

1867
01:00:33,066 --> 01:00:34,500
You've said we're the only

1868
01:00:34,500 --> 01:00:36,733
country that focuses on sports

1869
01:00:36,733 --> 01:00:38,200
at higher education

1870
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:39,433
institutions.

1871
01:00:39,433 --> 01:00:40,666
What can we learn from other

1872
01:00:40,666 --> 01:00:41,900
countries?

1873
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:43,100
You mentioned that boat race

1874
01:00:43,100 --> 01:00:44,400
with 750,000 people.

1875
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,533
They do have big sporting events

1876
01:00:46,533 --> 01:00:48,366
in United Kingdom, Australia

1877
01:00:48,366 --> 01:00:49,566
between universities.

1878
01:00:49,566 --> 01:00:50,800
What can we learn from other

1879
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,300
countries?

1880
01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:54,766
>> I'm not an expert on other

1881
01:00:54,766 --> 01:00:56,833
countries, but the club model is

1882
01:00:56,833 --> 01:01:01,100
very strong around the world.

1883
01:01:01,100 --> 01:01:04,300
University students, while

1884
01:01:04,300 --> 01:01:05,833
they're in university and after

1885
01:01:05,833 --> 01:01:07,400
university, they join club teams

1886
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,000
that play.

1887
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,000
Some amateur.

1888
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,600
Amateur, by the way, amateur

1889
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,266
means that you do it yourself.

1890
01:01:17,266 --> 01:01:19,700
It's a self-avocation that you

1891
01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:21,500
choose to do it.

1892
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:22,666
It's something that is hard to

1893
01:01:22,666 --> 01:01:23,866
reconcile with something that is

1894
01:01:23,866 --> 01:01:25,033
imposed on you with something

1895
01:01:25,033 --> 01:01:26,066
else.

1896
01:01:26,066 --> 01:01:27,166
The very meaning of the word.

1897
01:01:27,166 --> 01:01:28,633
So they have clubs that are

1898
01:01:28,633 --> 01:01:29,866
amateurs where they get together

1899
01:01:29,866 --> 01:01:30,966
and they play.

1900
01:01:30,966 --> 01:01:32,066
They also have professional

1901
01:01:32,066 --> 01:01:33,166
clubs.

1902
01:01:33,166 --> 01:01:34,233
Sometimes they're near

1903
01:01:34,233 --> 01:01:35,300
universities; sometimes they're

1904
01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:36,433
not.

1905
01:01:36,433 --> 01:01:37,500
They're affiliated with towns.

1906
01:01:37,500 --> 01:01:39,766
They're more like Little League

1907
01:01:39,766 --> 01:01:41,033
or that sort of thing in the

1908
01:01:41,033 --> 01:01:42,200
rest of the world.

1909
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,466
And what that does, Oxford, they

1910
01:01:45,466 --> 01:01:47,033
get prestige out of the fact

1911
01:01:47,033 --> 01:01:49,933
that one of its students is also

1912
01:01:49,933 --> 01:01:52,566
a star member on a club team,

1913
01:01:52,566 --> 01:01:54,500
but it's not the Oxford club

1914
01:01:54,500 --> 01:01:56,200
team.

1915
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,200
And that generally is true

1916
01:01:58,200 --> 01:01:59,800
around the world.

1917
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,100
And of course there are more and

1918
01:02:01,100 --> 01:02:02,500
more universities being created

1919
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:04,166
around the world.

1920
01:02:04,166 --> 01:02:05,966
We're unique where the brand is

1921
01:02:05,966 --> 01:02:07,733
the university and the control

1922
01:02:07,733 --> 01:02:10,166
is in the university.

1923
01:02:10,166 --> 01:02:11,566
And, of course, that's a little

1924
01:02:11,566 --> 01:02:12,900
bit hard in all of the

1925
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:14,133
regulatory things between the

1926
01:02:14,133 --> 01:02:18,066
NCAA and the schools.

1927
01:02:18,066 --> 01:02:19,400
Look in the newspaper story and

1928
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:20,800
study it carefully.

1929
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,766
Almost every time one of these

1930
01:02:22,766 --> 01:02:24,066
disciplines is announced, the

1931
01:02:24,066 --> 01:02:26,933
university says that we're doing

1932
01:02:26,933 --> 01:02:29,066
this because we've talked to the

1933
01:02:29,066 --> 01:02:30,266
NCAA.

1934
01:02:30,266 --> 01:02:31,900
The NCAA says the university is

1935
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:33,300
imposing these penalties on

1936
01:02:33,300 --> 01:02:35,833
itself.

1937
01:02:35,833 --> 01:02:37,100
And the reason is because both

1938
01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:39,200
institutions have some sort of

1939
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,566
justification, difficulty,

1940
01:02:41,566 --> 01:02:43,966
explain the rationale for things

1941
01:02:43,966 --> 01:02:45,633
that cause injury to the

1942
01:02:45,633 --> 01:02:47,466
players.

1943
01:02:47,466 --> 01:02:49,166
They're where the penalties

1944
01:02:49,166 --> 01:02:51,333
fall, and there is no legal

1945
01:02:51,333 --> 01:02:52,700
justification for it.

1946
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:54,466
In some senses, both sides are

1947
01:02:54,466 --> 01:02:55,700
somewhat reluctant to take

1948
01:02:55,700 --> 01:02:57,533
responsibility so the university

1949
01:02:57,533 --> 01:02:58,966
says we're doing it because we

1950
01:02:58,966 --> 01:03:00,266
don't want an even more severe

1951
01:03:00,266 --> 01:03:02,500
thing done by the NCAA, and the

1952
01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:04,166
NCAA says thank goodness the

1953
01:03:04,166 --> 01:03:05,666
school's doing it.

1954
01:03:05,666 --> 01:03:06,866
You'll notice that in the Penn

1955
01:03:06,866 --> 01:03:10,633
State case, for example, the

1956
01:03:10,633 --> 01:03:12,800
report came out, the Louis Freeh

1957
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,466
report came out in the Penn

1958
01:03:14,466 --> 01:03:17,100
State case, pinpointed

1959
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:19,100
dereliction of duty in the

1960
01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:20,400
president's office, the athletic

1961
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:21,800
director's office, the coach's

1962
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,200
office.

1963
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,233
A logical penalty may have been

1964
01:03:26,233 --> 01:03:27,800
to say those offices will have

1965
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,600
fewer assistants.

1966
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,100
But instead the penalties all

1967
01:03:32,100 --> 01:03:34,800
fell on the players, denying

1968
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:36,366
scholarships to players who

1969
01:03:36,366 --> 01:03:39,133
weren't even there yet.

1970
01:03:39,133 --> 01:03:40,533
That's what happens when you

1971
01:03:40,533 --> 01:03:42,200
have a system that doesn't have

1972
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,866
the players at the table.

1973
01:03:43,866 --> 01:03:45,033
That would never have occurred

1974
01:03:45,033 --> 01:03:46,566
had the players been part of

1975
01:03:46,566 --> 01:03:47,933
making the rules or making the

1976
01:03:47,933 --> 01:03:49,900
enforcements.

1977
01:03:49,900 --> 01:03:51,300
That's what I call informed

1978
01:03:51,300 --> 01:03:54,366
consent.

1979
01:03:54,366 --> 01:03:56,300
Students have more rights in the

1980
01:03:56,300 --> 01:04:00,700
classroom than athletes have in

1981
01:04:00,700 --> 01:04:02,766
athletic disputes over NCAA

1982
01:04:02,766 --> 01:04:04,300
rules having to do with what was

1983
01:04:04,300 --> 01:04:05,900
formally called amateurism and

1984
01:04:05,900 --> 01:04:07,166
is now called the collegiate

1985
01:04:07,166 --> 01:04:09,066
model.

1986
01:04:09,066 --> 01:04:10,800
I think that phrase will be

1987
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,800
phased out too.

1988
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:15,400
Thank you.

1989
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,100
[APPLAUSE]