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Funding for to the 
Contrary provided by

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the E. Rhodes and Leona B. 
Carpenter Foundation

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The Park Foundation

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and the Charles 
A. Frueauff Foundation

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This week on

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To the Contrary. Inequality 
and misogyny, criticism

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of the list of nominees chosen 
for possible Academy Awards.

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Then, 
Marjorie Taylor Greene

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She's apparently on Donald 
Trump's short list to run

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with him as his Vice 
Presidential nominee.

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{MUSIC }

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Hello I'm 
Bonnie Erbe'

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Welcome to To The 
Contrary, a discussion

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of news and social trends 
from diverse perspectives.

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Up first, 
women and entertainment.

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You won't see a female director

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win best director 
at the Academy Awards.

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That's because when the list 
was released this week,

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no woman was nominated 
in the director category.

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It was the same with the Golden 
Globes, but the Golden Globes

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included more black performers 
than the Oscars will.

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Till, the story of Emmett Till' 
murder and his mother's fight

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for justice did not receive 
any Oscar nominations.

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The female director, Chinonye 
Chukwo, criticized the awards

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as, quote, unabashed misogyny 
towards black women, end quote.

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Five actors were nominated 
for best actress.

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There were one Asian and one 
Hispanic nominee in the group.

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Viola Davis was not on the list, 
even though her role

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in the woman king 
did receive nominations

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at the Golden Globes 
and at the Screen Actors Guild.

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Joining me today

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are Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes 
Norton, a Democrat from D.C..

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Columnist for the Washington 
Examiner, Tiana Lowe

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the co-founder of Reproaction, 
Erin Matson

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and political 
strategist Rina Shah.

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So let's start 
with you, Congresswoman.

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There were,

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as I mentioned earlier, 
there were an Asian-American

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and Hispanic on the list

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for best female actor.

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What does the black community 
have a right to complain,

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even though there have been 
significant wins in the past

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about the lack of black people 
in that category.

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Oh blacks 
have every right to complain.

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No nominee for black actress.

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No nominee for black director.

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Clean slate.

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Blacks wiped out.

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So yeah, there's plenty 
to complain about.

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But there were five slots. Okay.

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Two did 
go to female actors of color.

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What happens if we start,

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you know, generally speaking,

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having

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one minority not feel as though

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people of color 
are being given their fair due

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when other minorities 
are given recognition?

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What kind of, Rina does that 
get us into,

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if a difficult area?

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I think 
we get into dicey territory

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when we talk about 
how many should there be

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for example, 
with the Academy Awards,

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you know, 
we saw the highest number

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of Asian-American actors 
be nominated.

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But again, 
that number was only four.

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So how many is enough?

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And at some point,

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we have to look at the root 
of the problem,

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too, is 
how are we seeing these people

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get to where they're getting?

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Is it taking a long time?

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We've seen that 
with the Asian actors.

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So they've been put in certain 
roles.

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They've been typified 
a certain way.

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We're seeing all that sort 
of breakthrough now,

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and only in recent years

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has a really been 
a real consciousness.

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And I know that everybody hates 
that word Wokeism Right.

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But is it the worst thing 
when we're talking about, again,

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how we just don't see 
certain groups

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represented 
in a way they ought to be?

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Is it reflective of America? No.

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But what can change

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and I think we get 
to the root of the problem

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and see how these people 
are being brought up

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through the ranks 
as actors and actresses.

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And are they being given 
the opportunities to direct

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and be in certain roles 
the way their counterparts

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who are are of not minority 
status would be?

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So I think that representation

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is not 
the only things that matters.

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And what I mean by

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this is let's look at that 
best actress race.

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One of Harvey Weinstein's 
very unfortunate legacies on

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Hollywood was how he turned 
the Oscar nomination and game

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specifically into a money war, 
into a publicity war.

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Which is why it's very difficult 
for smaller budget films

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to get their incredible actors 
and actresses, often

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those that are very diverse 
stories represented

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one of the people 
who did get represented,

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or one of the people who did 
earn a nomination

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was Ana de Armas 
for the movie Blond,

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which I don't know 
if anyone's seen it, but to me

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that was an incredibly sexist 
choice.

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That was a very reductive, 
sexist

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portrayal of Marilyn Monroe

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that completely erased her 
historical legacy, her comedy

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and her ethos and her strength 
as an actress, as as a comedian.

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Right. 
It was played for tragedy.

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And I think that a lot of people 
in my generation,

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in this post-MeToo world in 
Hollywood,

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we're very uncomfortable 
with things like

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overly sexualizing actresses 
and gratuitous nudity.

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It feels a little bit 
like a pay for play, right?

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Like if you are a woman 
who wants to be recognized,

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the Oscars, you must strip 
this many times on camera.

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All right.

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Let's get because I do want 
to get to the larger question.

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What happens to you 
as an Asian-American?

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What happens

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if if there are plenty 
of African-Americans,

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for example, nominated

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or a large number, let's say 
four out of five nominees

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in in the best actress 
category were African-American.

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Do you feel 
do you give credit that

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just people of color,

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lots of them are in a category

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as opposed to looking 
for specific kinds of people?

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I mean, if they deserve it, 
then they should earn it, right?

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It doesn't matter what specific

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minorities 
you're cherry picking. Right.

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You want to make sure 
that the nominees

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look somewhat like America,

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but from year to year,

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they're going to be more

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successful film starring white 
actresses or black actresses

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Asian actresses.

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And I think the merit element 
of it really matters.

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And a

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lot of the whole OscarsSoWhite 
campaign from a few years back

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has to do with the fact that 
merit wasn't being recognized.

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Right.

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Black actresses 
were being overlooked.

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This year

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The Woman King and Till

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had two fantastic

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lead African-American actresses.

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Why were they ignored?

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For Till, All I'm going to say 
is that budget thing

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that that that campaigning.

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That is a lot of what

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I'm referring to, a movie 
that doesn't have large coffers,

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you know, to take out 
members of the academy.

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It is very corrupt 
how these things are chosen.

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So a lot of it is a money game.

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Okay.

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So, Erin, 
should we be attacking it

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from the perspective 
of not enough money

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thrown into public relations?

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And it is all a PR game?

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Should we be talking about 
making sure

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all films, no matter who 
they are produced by,

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have equal finances 
to try to influence the judges?

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Because that's 
what the game is about?

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Well, Bonnie, 
I want to take a step back

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for a second and just talk about 
what the overall game is here.

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This is a white man's game.

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Hollywood has always been 
a white man's game

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and it's extremely white male 
dominated.

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And I stand in solidarity,

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in particular with black women 
who are very frustrated.

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What has happened with 
this latest crop of nominees?

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I want to push it

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a little farther 
and just put it out there

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for folks 
to start talking about.

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And I'm sure that it'll get 
some folks go, whoa.

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But the fact of the matter, 
these are nominations.

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These are not awards.

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Is it time to start 
looking at some kind

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of affirmative action policy?

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And what might that look like 
within the Oscars?

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Because when I look at 
I watch the Academy Awards

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or excuse me, not the Academy 
Awards, the Golden Globes

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and the Golden Globes 
didn't have the same problem.

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It seems that 
there is a specific problem.

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It didn't.

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It did in terms of like 
I watched the Golden Globes

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and there was white Steven 
Spielberg accepting the award

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for the 
Fablemen's with like three

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or four of his closest aides, 
all older white men.

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So I just it still looked to me 
like the occasional,

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you know, gay person, 
Ryan Murphy and the occasional

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person of color.

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Billy Porter 
was up on the stage,

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but and the audience 
was pretty diverse.

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But the people on stage 
were not.

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So Rina, 
what do we do about that?

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Well, there is a number 
of things I think we can do.

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And I think, again, I'm a root 
of the problem type of gal.

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I just think these

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these industries need 
diversifying in so many ways.

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Opportunities 
wise, scholarship wise,

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why aren't a lot of people 
of color studying certain

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types of arts? Right.

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Because there is a sense 
that art will not pay.

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And of course, I'm 
sharing an immigrant trope from,

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I would assume,

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a lot of Asian-Americans

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and of course a lot of African

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families who immigrate 
from Africa as well.

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There's a sense that your child 
has to go into something

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that will give you 
a stability, a job.

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But there are

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these younger generations, 
kids of immigrants

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who want to pursue something 
in the performing arts, but

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they don't have the opportunity,

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the privilege, 
that certain network.

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And so we have to think about 
more private

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public partnerships. 
I think in this space as well.

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I'm just not a Quotas person, 
and I really, really do caution

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against certain kind of,

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you know,

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affirmative action policies

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just because I think they can do

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more harm than good 
in some ways.

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I have great faith in this fact.

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As as Erin said,

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traditional Hollywood is a 
is a white man's game.

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I talked to an agent 
a year or so ago.

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This was after the MeToo 
movement had sort of faded.

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Now it's almost out of view.

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But I asked him what

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impact it had had on Hollywood,

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you know, the casting couch 
and all of that.

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And he said none that everything 
was back to the way it was.

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Now, I'm 
not a part of that network.

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I don't know.

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But I do see lots of women,

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and particularly women of color

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starting up their own production 
companies and completely

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bypassing Hollywood on the way

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to the streaming

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networks, which are more 
and more considered

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the same as Hollywood

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when it comes to awards, 
just as quality production.

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So isn't the the

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the solution 
to all this, Eleanor,

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to just bypass the old boys 
game?

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Yeah, Bonnie, That's the way 
to get into the game yourself

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with with black actresses

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and directors 
depending on Hollywood.

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We see what the answer is.

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00:11:24,566 --> 00:11:27,666
The same things 
and the same people.

254
00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:33,633
So this 
new outgrowth of of outlets

255
00:11:34,566 --> 00:11:38,433
and people 
fending for themselves

256
00:11:39,033 --> 00:11:41,400
is the way to get noticed

257
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,366
and the way to get Hollywood 
back into the game.

258
00:11:44,366 --> 00:11:48,400
And as you say, with streaming 
and as so many other outlets,

259
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,233
Hulu who I mean, 
Hollywood is not all there is.

260
00:11:52,433 --> 00:11:53,833
So let's take advantage.

261
00:11:53,833 --> 00:11:56,700
It really cannot be overstated 
how much the Internet

262
00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,066
has democratized 
content creation. Right.

263
00:11:59,066 --> 00:12:00,933
Like the biggest deals right now

264
00:12:00,933 --> 00:12:02,866
that some talent 
agencies are brokering

265
00:12:02,866 --> 00:12:05,766
are not actors and actresses 
who are on the traditional

266
00:12:05,766 --> 00:12:07,233
golden screen. Right.

267
00:12:07,233 --> 00:12:10,366
It's people on Tik-tok, 
which is a Chinese Communist

268
00:12:10,366 --> 00:12:11,966
Party ran app. 
I will just add that.

269
00:12:11,966 --> 00:12:14,166
But the point is they're making 
independent content.

270
00:12:14,166 --> 00:12:15,366
They don't have producers.

271
00:12:15,366 --> 00:12:17,566
And even a lot of the people 
who are going to

272
00:12:17,566 --> 00:12:21,366
Netflix are going to HBO Max, 
are private independent studios.

273
00:12:21,366 --> 00:12:22,866
It then broker deals with them

274
00:12:22,866 --> 00:12:25,133
to the point 
about being respected,

275
00:12:25,133 --> 00:12:28,100
especially as a woman of color 
in a traditionally white

276
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,033
rich man industry.

277
00:12:30,033 --> 00:12:31,033
Shonda Rhimes.

278
00:12:31,266 --> 00:12:34,933
The reason why she left ABC 
Disney. Here is why after she

279
00:12:34,933 --> 00:12:37,900
created Gray's Anatomy, Scandal, 
some of the best

280
00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:40,000
shows on television 
in the last 15 years,

281
00:12:40,233 --> 00:12:43,300
she went to Disney to ask for, 
I think three extra

282
00:12:43,633 --> 00:12:46,433
like Disneyland passes 
because she had family

283
00:12:46,433 --> 00:12:49,266
visiting her and they said no.

284
00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:51,266
Within like a few months,

285
00:12:51,266 --> 00:12:52,966
she inked a deal 
with Netflix Worth.

286
00:12:52,966 --> 00:12:56,566
It was one of the most expensive 
deals Netflix has ever made.

287
00:12:56,933 --> 00:12:57,966
And she's there now.

288
00:12:57,966 --> 00:13:00,533
And she gave them Bridgerton 
and she gave them

289
00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:03,466
the Emmy nominated mini series 
(inaudible)..

290
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,400
So the point being, 
because it is no longer,

291
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,500
you know, your grandmother's 
Hollywood industry

292
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:13,500
where there's, you know, MGM 
and a few other producers.

293
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:16,366
You have so many options 
these these days.

294
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,333
And that's 
why we're going to see better,

295
00:13:18,333 --> 00:13:19,800
more democratized content.

296
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,633
And I think that will bode 
very well for diversity.

297
00:13:21,633 --> 00:13:23,733
In the end, capitalism 
always wins.

298
00:13:23,733 --> 00:13:26,100
Well, I would like to believe 
that in the end

299
00:13:27,033 --> 00:13:28,900
that people will win.

300
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:31,500
And capitalism is a tool 
for serving people.

301
00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:32,733
Correct.

302
00:13:32,733 --> 00:13:34,933
But I would like to just 
close up with saying, you know,

303
00:13:34,933 --> 00:13:36,766
what matters about 
this is Hollywood

304
00:13:36,766 --> 00:13:38,966
is incredibly important 
and powerful.

305
00:13:38,966 --> 00:13:41,800
And the stories that we see 
not only

306
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,100
send a message to young people 
about what they can do

307
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:46,300
and be and achieve,

308
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,933
but it also they're important 
for people of all ages

309
00:13:48,933 --> 00:13:51,200
and building empathy 
and understanding other people.

310
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:52,600
So it is really important

311
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,433
that we have more diversity 
in Hollywood.

312
00:13:54,433 --> 00:13:54,966
All right.

313
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:58,466
From movie drama 
to political drama,

314
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:01,633
Georgia Republican and U.S.

315
00:14:01,633 --> 00:14:04,666
Representative Marjorie Taylor 
Greene reportedly

316
00:14:04,666 --> 00:14:07,366
wants to be Donald Trump's 
next running mate.

317
00:14:07,766 --> 00:14:10,733
Steve Bannon, 
a former aide for Trump, says

318
00:14:10,733 --> 00:14:13,766
she sees herself as the next VP,

319
00:14:13,766 --> 00:14:17,366
although she is coy 
and denying that she's running.

320
00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:20,900
The second term congresswoman 
has recently undergone

321
00:14:21,233 --> 00:14:23,466
an attempted rebranding.

322
00:14:23,466 --> 00:14:26,266
She made her name 
as a far right agitator,

323
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,300
but now she wants voters 
to see her as a uniter

324
00:14:30,566 --> 00:14:32,933
between the GOP's two wings.

325
00:14:33,433 --> 00:14:36,266
She recently campaigned to elect 
Kevin

326
00:14:36,266 --> 00:14:38,933
McCarthy of California 
as House speaker

327
00:14:39,233 --> 00:14:42,500
when many of her allies 
were set against him.

328
00:14:42,866 --> 00:14:45,866
But for his part, 
Trump is not shown any

329
00:14:45,866 --> 00:14:49,000
indication 
he's decided on a running mate.

330
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,100
Rina, 
you are a Republican analyst

331
00:14:52,466 --> 00:14:55,566
and have spent 
a lot of time in the party,

332
00:14:55,566 --> 00:14:59,066
although you're not 
a Trump supporter, obviously.

333
00:15:00,366 --> 00:15:02,833
Would she 
be a bit a good pick for him?

334
00:15:02,833 --> 00:15:04,833
Well, I've spent a lot of time 
with Republican women

335
00:15:04,833 --> 00:15:06,633
over the past two decades, 
and I can tell you

336
00:15:06,633 --> 00:15:09,366
she's unlike the vast majority 
I've met.

337
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,333
She's somebody that doesn't care 
about public service.

338
00:15:12,333 --> 00:15:14,400
She's deeply unserious.

339
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,200
She also has no desire to learn

340
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,166
how to govern, 
to pull the levers.

341
00:15:18,166 --> 00:15:19,300
I don't think she's in.

342
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,233
That sound 
just like Donald Trump. Exactly.

343
00:15:22,233 --> 00:15:24,166
So there's a fit right there.

344
00:15:24,166 --> 00:15:25,666
This is about personality.

345
00:15:25,666 --> 00:15:27,066
This is about the value

346
00:15:27,066 --> 00:15:29,966
beyond just serving people 
and a constituency.

347
00:15:30,266 --> 00:15:32,300
This is about enriching oneself.

348
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,933
And she saw that 
and she's taken the opportunity.

349
00:15:35,566 --> 00:15:39,066
She really gave herself away 
during the contentious

350
00:15:39,366 --> 00:15:42,200
many days of multiple ballots.

351
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,200
And Kevin McCarthy's 
election to the speakership,

352
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,700
it was about getting 
what she wanted.

353
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,300
In the end, 
she wanted committees.

354
00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:50,000
She knew 
McCarthy would give them back.

355
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,066
She knew how valuable her 
one vote was.

356
00:15:52,066 --> 00:15:54,000
So she didn't 
go with her friends,

357
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,500
which I call the crazy clown car 
caucus of people

358
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,300
like Representative Matt Gaetz 
and and Lauren Boebert.

359
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:01,600
These people, again, 
I call them that

360
00:16:02,033 --> 00:16:04,033
because they prove it 
that they want to

361
00:16:04,033 --> 00:16:06,433
not just shake things up, 
they want to blow things up.

362
00:16:06,666 --> 00:16:08,466
They want to act 
like the clowns in the room

363
00:16:08,466 --> 00:16:10,533
because they want 
to draw attention to themselves.

364
00:16:10,533 --> 00:16:12,066
So Marjorie Taylor Greene

365
00:16:12,066 --> 00:16:14,166
saying that she wants to be 
Trump's running mate,

366
00:16:14,166 --> 00:16:17,100
going down to Mar a Lago, much 
like Carrie Lake of Arizona.

367
00:16:17,633 --> 00:16:19,133
These people want to

368
00:16:19,133 --> 00:16:21,500
hitch their train 
and hitch their bank account

369
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:23,600
to what they see 
is deeply lucrative.

370
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,266
And that is still Trump 
world in the MAGA universe.

371
00:16:26,266 --> 00:16:26,666
I mean, he.

372
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,400
Has lost so much credibility 
and so much.

373
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,500
And the reason 
that there are a lot

374
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:34,433
more moderate 
Republicans out there

375
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,400
and people elected to office 
becoming more moderate.

376
00:16:40,433 --> 00:16:42,633
I think of DeSantis in Florida,

377
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:45,600
who signed a 15 week

378
00:16:46,466 --> 00:16:50,266
abortion bill, pro-abortion, 
you know, abortion rights bill,

379
00:16:50,266 --> 00:16:51,966
that you can have an abortion

380
00:16:51,966 --> 00:16:55,600
up to 15 weeks, 
wanting to position himself

381
00:16:55,900 --> 00:17:00,633
in his run for president 
as not anti-choice in the way

382
00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:04,533
that the Supreme Court 
and this and the extreme right

383
00:17:04,533 --> 00:17:08,066
wing of the party, 
which is positioning itself.

384
00:17:08,433 --> 00:17:12,800
My point is, is she more of 
a turnoff to voters than a turn

385
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,366
on? She's a certainly a turnoff 
to many voters.

386
00:17:17,366 --> 00:17:20,233
You know, here's a woman who's

387
00:17:20,233 --> 00:17:22,800
only in her second term 
in Congress,

388
00:17:23,333 --> 00:17:26,066
and you got to give her credit 
for gumption

389
00:17:26,466 --> 00:17:28,900
because now 
she wants to be vice president.

390
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:32,000
Interesting to note that Trump

391
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,300
hasn't 
said anything.

392
00:17:34,833 --> 00:17:37,600
This is a woman who was taken 
off of her committees.

393
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:38,933
And he, in turn,

394
00:17:38,933 --> 00:17:42,400
has just taken two Democrats 
off their committees.

395
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,733
That's right.

396
00:17:43,733 --> 00:17:45,700
She was taken off of her 
committees.

397
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,600
Now she's on.

398
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,000
By the way, 
one of my committees, Oversight,

399
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,333
but she's now 
been put on Homeland Security.

400
00:17:55,333 --> 00:17:58,433
And McCarthy 
has also put her on a

401
00:17:58,433 --> 00:18:03,966
a committee 
which is investigating COVID

402
00:18:03,966 --> 00:18:06,800
19. But it's interesting 
to note, here's a woman

403
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:07,966
I never heard of,

404
00:18:07,966 --> 00:18:10,600
a member of Congress saying, 
I want to be Vice-President.

405
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,833
I am.

406
00:18:13,833 --> 00:18:16,900
The silence from 
Trump is deafening.

407
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:18,700
But what about Barack Obama?

408
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:23,300
I mean, he ran for president 
after two years in the Senate.

409
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:27,433
It's not the number of years 
alone. It's

410
00:18:27,433 --> 00:18:31,400
and remember, 
he was in the Senate,

411
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,600
which is the next place 
up to be president.

412
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,766
This is a now two year member

413
00:18:37,766 --> 00:18:41,333
of the House of Representatives 
promoting herself.

414
00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:43,233
Nobody is promoting her

415
00:18:43,233 --> 00:18:46,266
to be vice 
president of the United States.

416
00:18:46,266 --> 00:18:47,566
You got to give her credit.

417
00:18:47,566 --> 00:18:49,633
But I think there's one 
really large point

418
00:18:49,633 --> 00:18:51,900
that is missing 
from the national conversation

419
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:54,100
here, how dangerous it is 
to have somebody

420
00:18:54,366 --> 00:18:56,400
who doesn't seem of sane 
and rational mind

421
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,066
on these committees 
within our U.S.

422
00:18:58,066 --> 00:18:59,266
House of Representatives,

423
00:18:59,266 --> 00:19:00,433
members of Congress, as Eleanor

424
00:19:00,433 --> 00:19:02,200
well knows 
from her years of service,

425
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,300
you're routinely exposed to 
classified information, things

426
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:06,833
that would be considered 
national secrets.

427
00:19:06,833 --> 00:19:09,333
I mean, the problem is 
these people aren't just

428
00:19:09,333 --> 00:19:12,066
they don't care 
about intellectual discourse.

429
00:19:12,066 --> 00:19:12,700
That's fine.

430
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,833
That's already a problem 
for our representative democracy

431
00:19:14,833 --> 00:19:16,900
that they don't care about 
vigorous intellectual debate.

432
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,400
But the very fact that 
she's not she has exhibited

433
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,300
a sense that she's not sane.

434
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:24,666
I can imagine her going out 
on a campaign

435
00:19:24,666 --> 00:19:26,533
trail and certain 
just blurt things out.

436
00:19:26,533 --> 00:19:28,666
That is dangerous for America.

437
00:19:28,666 --> 00:19:31,500
And I think that's missing 
from the larger conversation.

438
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:32,766
We need to talk about how

439
00:19:32,766 --> 00:19:35,933
we have these people in Congress 
who cannot be trusted.

440
00:19:35,933 --> 00:19:38,600
That's something I don't think 
we've seen in the modern era.

441
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,866
And do you think 
what do you think

442
00:19:40,866 --> 00:19:42,900
we'll see 
next in the coming summer

443
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,166
when the debt 
ceiling is reached?

444
00:19:45,166 --> 00:19:46,866
And do you think we'll see

445
00:19:46,866 --> 00:19:51,100
whether she's serious about 
blowing things up, which is

446
00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:55,366
how she got into office, 
including the entire U.S.

447
00:19:55,366 --> 00:19:57,833
economy 
and trying to blow that up

448
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:00,200
with a fight 
over the debt ceiling?

449
00:20:00,833 --> 00:20:03,600
Will we see whether she chooses

450
00:20:03,933 --> 00:20:06,533
to try to be Trump's 
running mate and moderates

451
00:20:06,533 --> 00:20:11,133
herself, rebrands 
herself, or will we see her

452
00:20:13,333 --> 00:20:14,066
doing what she

453
00:20:14,066 --> 00:20:16,566
did as she came in, which is

454
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:20,333
be a part of a government 
that she wants to destroy?

455
00:20:20,333 --> 00:20:21,500
I don't think that she's going

456
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:22,966
to be 
a part of those discussions.

457
00:20:22,966 --> 00:20:24,300
Those are going to be high level

458
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,166
discussions 
among the Republicans

459
00:20:26,166 --> 00:20:27,666
because they're going 
to have to decide

460
00:20:27,666 --> 00:20:31,066
what very specific concessions 
they want to derive.

461
00:20:31,066 --> 00:20:31,533
Right.

462
00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:35,300
But consider her now 
pretty high up in the party

463
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:39,366
and in terms of her influence 
with the extreme right.

464
00:20:39,566 --> 00:20:41,300
Being close to Kevin McCarthy

465
00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:44,500
and sort of being a liaison 
between Kevin McCarthy and that

466
00:20:45,766 --> 00:20:48,500
further fringe end of the House 
Freedom Caucus,

467
00:20:49,066 --> 00:20:52,333
that is not the same thing 
as what another person

468
00:20:52,333 --> 00:20:55,033
who I think is a far more viable 
running mate to Trump is.

469
00:20:55,266 --> 00:20:57,566
Like Elise Stefanik, 
hear me out.

470
00:20:57,566 --> 00:20:58,400
The whole

471
00:20:58,733 --> 00:21:01,366
purpose of what what Trump 
needs out of a running mate,

472
00:21:01,366 --> 00:21:02,233
he needs two things.

473
00:21:02,466 --> 00:21:05,366
One, someone who can be 
a good liaison to Congress

474
00:21:05,666 --> 00:21:08,133
and someone 
who is a serious policy mind.

475
00:21:08,133 --> 00:21:11,000
And he also wants someone 
who represents

476
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,833
a little more diversity 
than Mike Pence

477
00:21:12,833 --> 00:21:15,466
and someone who has absolute 
loyalty to him.

478
00:21:15,766 --> 00:21:18,233
Elise 
Stefanik fits all four things.

479
00:21:18,733 --> 00:21:22,933
And if she in House leadership 
can help see this thing through.

480
00:21:22,933 --> 00:21:25,300
Right, that bodes 
very well for Trump.

481
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:28,833
And the thing is, Elise Stefanik 
is perfectly positioned to not

482
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,666
blow up the blow up America's 
credit rating because Trump

483
00:21:33,666 --> 00:21:35,766
specifically said he doesn't 
want to touch entitlements,

484
00:21:35,966 --> 00:21:38,333
which means, in effect, 
that Trump just wants to keep on

485
00:21:38,333 --> 00:21:40,166
spending 
like everybody else does. Right?

486
00:21:40,166 --> 00:21:43,366
The only way we really curtail 
our federal spending

487
00:21:43,566 --> 00:21:44,966
is entitlement reform.

488
00:21:44,966 --> 00:21:47,233
What about military spending?

489
00:21:47,233 --> 00:21:51,166
Military spending is half 
that of of non-discretionary

490
00:21:51,166 --> 00:21:52,466
entitlements spending.

491
00:21:52,466 --> 00:21:54,966
Still a very 
large chunk of the budget.

492
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:56,800
Sure, sure, sure.

493
00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:59,133
If you want to tackle something 
that's half the size

494
00:21:59,133 --> 00:22:02,966
of non-discretionary entitlement 
spending, that is it

495
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,200
slated to grow year over 
year. Right?

496
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,333
Absolute military spending,

497
00:22:07,333 --> 00:22:10,066
adjusted for inflation, 
has not increased at all.

498
00:22:10,466 --> 00:22:11,700
Absolute entitlement.

499
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:14,233
Social Security, 
Medicare, Medicaid spending

500
00:22:14,233 --> 00:22:15,400
adjusted for inflation

501
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,933
has been exploding, 
will continue to explode.

502
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:20,800
Let me let Eleanor jump in here.

503
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,466
Military spending 
not increasing with all the.

504
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:26,000
I don't know where you get that 
from.

505
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,400
Yeah, well, military spending 
has been increasing

506
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,833
under both Republican 
and Democrats.

507
00:22:32,833 --> 00:22:35,933
Now, even Republicans 
now are talking

508
00:22:35,933 --> 00:22:38,633
about whether we want 
to increase anything,

509
00:22:38,966 --> 00:22:41,900
including military spending.

510
00:22:43,766 --> 00:22:47,633
So everything has now 
gotten on the table.

511
00:22:48,366 --> 00:22:51,566
And if if the usual

512
00:22:51,566 --> 00:22:53,900
Republican notion of just keep

513
00:22:55,033 --> 00:22:58,000
doing military 
spending is even on the table.

514
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:58,300
All right.

515
00:22:58,633 --> 00:22:59,766
But also, I want one thing

516
00:22:59,766 --> 00:23:03,666
I want to get to that you, 
Tiana, you didn't mention

517
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,600
you talk about Elise Stefanik 
as a great V.P.

518
00:23:07,866 --> 00:23:11,066
choice for Trump or potential.

519
00:23:11,066 --> 00:23:15,100
Then the Democrats 
have one thing on their ticket

520
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,933
that the Republicans don't, 
and that's a person of color.

521
00:23:19,433 --> 00:23:21,800
And in the last elections,

522
00:23:22,266 --> 00:23:24,266
the Republicans have made gains,

523
00:23:25,033 --> 00:23:26,966
not so much 
with African-Americans,

524
00:23:26,966 --> 00:23:30,966
but certainly 
with Hispanic Americans.

525
00:23:30,966 --> 00:23:39,333
And I wonder if and of course, 
you know, Kamala Harris is

526
00:23:40,266 --> 00:23:44,233
is from 
two backgrounds of color.

527
00:23:44,233 --> 00:23:48,333
So I'm wondering 
if it would be wise for Trump

528
00:23:48,333 --> 00:23:50,966
to choose a white woman.

529
00:23:51,333 --> 00:23:52,700
- Would that. 
- Ba Bonnie?

530
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:56,066
I'm talking about what I think 
what I think Trump would do.

531
00:23:56,066 --> 00:23:58,000
And what if I were being paid 
to advise him

532
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,566
what I would recommend 
that he does do? Right?

533
00:23:59,566 --> 00:24:00,766
There are certain candidates

534
00:24:00,766 --> 00:24:02,633
he just couldn't live with 
because he he

535
00:24:02,633 --> 00:24:05,100
he he requires 
absolute loyalty. Right.

536
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:06,366
Which really limits

537
00:24:06,366 --> 00:24:09,233
how many people you can have 
because a good politician,

538
00:24:09,233 --> 00:24:11,066
would want, 
you know, actual advice

539
00:24:11,066 --> 00:24:13,266
for what to do. 
He just wants a yes man. Right.

540
00:24:13,266 --> 00:24:15,466
Eise Stefanick 
can be both a yes man

541
00:24:15,466 --> 00:24:16,666
and a serious policy mind,

542
00:24:16,666 --> 00:24:18,400
even though I think 
that she's made

543
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,666
some questionable decisions 
as of late.

544
00:24:19,666 --> 00:24:20,666
But I don't think

545
00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:22,766
but I don't think Donald Trump 
is going to be the nominee.

546
00:24:22,766 --> 00:24:24,200
I think it will be Ron DeSantis.

547
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,333
wager on a running mate, 
I think the obvious one would be

548
00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:28,833
Tim Scott

549
00:24:28,833 --> 00:24:29,633
and the dark horse

550
00:24:29,633 --> 00:24:30,466
would be

551
00:24:30,466 --> 00:24:32,600
someone lower level 
from Florida,

552
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,733
maybe like a Francis Suarez 
or someone.

553
00:24:34,733 --> 00:24:35,566
But but really,

554
00:24:35,566 --> 00:24:37,300
I think it's going to be Ron 
DeSantis

555
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:39,500
and Tim Scott who wind up 
at the top of that ticket.

556
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:41,500
All right. Your thoughts, Erin?

557
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,400
Does it matter if Republicans

558
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,033
have an all white presidential 
and vice presidential ticket?

559
00:24:48,033 --> 00:24:52,500
Bonnie, I've been sitting here 
so amused by this idea

560
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:54,333
that Donald Trump cares a hoot 
about diversity

561
00:24:54,333 --> 00:24:54,533
and optics and diversity.

562
00:24:54,866 --> 00:24:56,500
He clearly showed us

563
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,500
during four years 
of an administration

564
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,100
where he tried to overthrow 
our status as a democracy,

565
00:25:02,333 --> 00:25:04,933
that he is more than happy to 
surround himself with white men.

566
00:25:04,933 --> 00:25:07,766
I do not think he cares 
about that at all.

567
00:25:07,766 --> 00:25:08,700
One whit.

568
00:25:09,033 --> 00:25:13,500
I think he thinks it's funny and 
it's it's unimportant to him.

569
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:14,566
I do think,

570
00:25:14,566 --> 00:25:17,300
you know, to the Marjorie Taylor 
Greene piece,

571
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:17,733
I want to highlight 
that she really does

572
00:25:18,533 --> 00:25:21,466
seem like the perfect buddy 
for him in so many ways, between

573
00:25:21,733 --> 00:25:25,733
not just what Rina laid out, 
but the conspiracy mongering,

574
00:25:25,733 --> 00:25:30,000
the open attacks 
that she has on people of color

575
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000
and the way that she invokes 
violence.

576
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,566
And Bonnie, 
we just need to be very clear

577
00:25:33,566 --> 00:25:34,700
about what is at stake

578
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:37,333
in this next election. 
We are fighting

579
00:25:37,333 --> 00:25:40,866
against authoritarianism 
in America, period.

580
00:25:40,866 --> 00:25:41,933
All right. 
That's it for this edition.

581
00:25:42,233 --> 00:25:45,033
Please keep the conversation 
going with us on Twitter,

582
00:25:45,033 --> 00:25:49,166
Facebook and Instagram and visit 
our Web site.

583
00:25:49,566 --> 00:25:53,300
The address is on the screen.

584
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:54,966
And whether you agree 
or think to the contrary.

585
00:25:54,966 --> 00:25:56,900
See you next week.

586
00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:14,700
{MUSIC }

587
00:26:16,833 --> 00:26:18,000
Funding for

588
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,133
To the Contrary is provided by

589
00:26:20,133 --> 00:26:23,033
E. Rhodes and Leona B. 
Carpenter Foundation

590
00:26:23,033 --> 00:26:24,566
The Park Foundation

591
00:26:25,733 --> 00:26:27,966
Charles A.Frueauff 
Foundation