>> Bonnie: ARE THE GOOD OLD

BOYS IN THE GRAND OLD PARTY

SEXIST AS THEY TRIED TO BATTLE

THE HIGHEST-RANKING WOMAN IN

GOP LEADERSHIP?

THEN VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS

UNVEILS HER STRATEGY FOR

CENTRAL AMERICA AS SHE TRIES TO

CURB A SURGE OF IMMIGRATION ON

THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES: MOTHER'S

DAY WORDS OF WISDOM FROM Eartha

Kitt AND HER DAUGHTER, Kitt

Shapiro.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A

WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND

SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE

PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, ARE THE GOB'S -- GOOD

OLD BOYS -- IN THE GOP SEXIST?

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE LIZ CHENEY

IS STANDING FIRM DESPITE

MOUNTING PRESSURE FROM OTHER

REPUBLICANS TO KICK HER OUT AS

CHAIR OF THE HOUSE GOP

CONFERENCE. THAT'S THE THIRD

RANKING POSITION IN PARTY

LEADERSHIP, HER LIKELY

REPLACEMENT CONGRESSWOMAN ELISE

STEFANIK OF NEW YORK CHENEY IS

UNDER FIRE FOR HER CRITICISM OF

FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIES

ABOUT THE ELECTION. SHE WAS

ALSO ONE OF 10 REPUBLICANS WHO

VOTED FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT THIS

YEAR. STEFANIK IS A TRUMP

SUPPORTER AND IS CREDITED WITH

GETTING MORE REPUBLICAN WOMEN

ELECTED TO CONGRESS. BUT

STEFANIK IS MORE OF A MODERATE

THAN CHENEY, WHO IS THE

DAUGHTER OF VICE PRESIDENT DICK

CHENEY. WITH US TODAY ARE DC

DELEGATE CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR

HOLMES NORTON; FORMER JUDGE AND

FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, DEBORAH

CARNAHAN; REPUBLICAN

STRATEGIST, RINA SHAH BHARARA;

AND CARRIE SHEFFIELD, SENIOR

FELLOW AT THE INDEPENDENT

WOMEN'S FORUM. SO WHAT IS GOING

ON HERE, RINA?

ARE THESE GUYS SEXIST, OR IS

LIZ CHENEY JUST SPEAKING OUT A

BIT TOO MUCH AGAINST TRUMP?

>> Rina: BONNIE, I DON'T THINK

THIS ACTUALLY HAS TO DO WITH

SEX, THOUGH I THINK THIS IS THE

FACT, THAT SHE'S TAKEN A

TOTALLY DIFFERENT LINE THAN

THEY HAVE. PUBLICLY SHE'S

SAYING IN PUBLIC WHAT MOST ARE

WHISPERING IN PRIVATE. AND

THAT'S POLITICALLY INCONVENIENT

TO TODAY'S GOP, ESPECIALLY WHEN

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOUSE

LEADERSHIP, THEY NEED TO SEEM

UNITED. SHE'S MADE IT VERY

DIFFICULT FOR LEADER McCARTHY

TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE IT SEEM TO

NOT JUST THE DEMOCRATS, BUT TO

THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WRIT LARGE,

THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND

WELL AND THAT THIS GOP IS

HEALTHY AND LOOKING FORWARD TO

THE FUTURE AS WELL AS TO 2024.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS ELEANOR?

ARE THEY PICKING ON HER BECAUSE

SHE'S A WOMAN OR ESPECIALLY

PICKING ON HER GOING TOO HARD?

LIKE AN OUTSPOKEN WOMAN WHO

DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM?

BEFORE THEY ARE VERY AFRAID

THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WILL

BE PERCEIVED.

AND SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW

IS REPLACING HER WITH ANOTHER

WOMAN TO TRY AND AUGMENT THAT

CRITICISM AND REPRESENTATIVE

STEFANIcK FROM NEW YORK, WHOSE

ANOTHER WOMAN, WOULD BE THERE

RESPONSE TO THE SEXISM

ALLEGATION THAT IS BOUND TO BE

LEVELED AGAINST THEM BECAUSE

THEY HAVE AN ALL-MALE

LEADERSHIP.

>> Bonnie: DEBRA CARNAHAN,

WOULD YOU THINK ABOUT THIS,

SEXIST OR NOT SEXIST?

>> Debra: I AGREE WITH ELEANOR

AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT THEY

ARE LOOKING AT THIS CONGRESS

WOMAN WHO REALLY IS MORE OF A

MODERATE THAN LIZ CHENEY AND

VOTED MORE AGAINST DONALD

TRUMP.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT TRUMP'S HIM.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE GOP BEING

TERRIFIED IN PRIMARIES IN 2022.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

IT ALSO GOES BACK TO DONALD

TRUMP.

THE ONLY AGENDA THAT I CAN TELL

THAT THE GOP HAS AT THIS POINT

IS STILL DONALD TRUMP, DO WHAT

DONALD TRUMP WANTS THEM TO DO.

>> Bonnie: WELL, THAT'S TRUE

OF THE VAST MAJORITY, CORRECT.

BUT THERE ARE SOME STANDING UP

AND SHE IS ONE OF THEM, SAYING

THAT TRUMP LIED ABOUT THE

ELECTION, HE DID NOT WIN THE

ELECTION.

IS JUST TRYING TO STIR UP

VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION IN THE

NATION'S CAPITOL.

>> Debra: AND SHE IS RIGHT,

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

IT IS ANTI-TRUMP.

IT'S TELLING THE TRUTH.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER

CARED ABOUT THE TRUTH.

WHAT HE CARES ABOUT IS, ARE YOU

LOYAL TO ME?

THAT IS IS ONE CONDITION FOR

EVERYBODY IN HIS ORBIT OR

ANYONE THAT HE SUPPORTS.

>> Bonnie: CARRIE, YOUR

THOUGHTS -- STATED THAT HAS

BECOME THE CONDITION OF GOP.

>> Bonnie: LET'S LET CARRIE IN

HERE.

CARRIE, WOULD YOU THINK?

>> Carrie: SURE.

WILL THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS

THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOW THE

PRESIDENT AND I THINK THE MEDIA

IS TRYING TO VERY MUCH DISTRACT

THE NATIONAL AGENDA AWAY FROM

JOE BIDEN AND WHAT HE IS TRYING

TO DO.

HE'S TRYING TO FUNDAMENTALLY

RESTRUCTURE OUR ECONOMY WITH A

$6 TRILLION SPENDING PLAN.

THAT WOULD CRIPPLE OUR COUNTRY

WITH DEBT.

MY GENERATION, FUTURE BURDENS.

THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND WE

ARE NOT TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE

THE MEDIA WANTS US TO FOCUS ON

THIS INTERPARTY --

>> Bonnie: YOU THINK THE ME

TOO -- MEDIA ARE CONSPIRING?

I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND

CONSPIRING, AND CERTAINLY

EVERYONE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU

THAT SPINNING THIS LARGE NEEDS

TO BE DISCUSSED, IT NEEDS TO BE

DISCUSSED NOT ONLY BY BIDEN AND

MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION,

AND WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT

THAT IN THE NEXT SEGMENT, BUT

IT ALSO NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED

BY THE VOTERS INTO REALLY SEE

IF THERE ARE SOME CRITICAL OF

WHAT THE VOTERS WANT.

LET'S GET BACK TO LIZ CHENEY

FOR A MOMENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT SHE IS BEING

SINGLED OUT FOR BEING A BIG

MOUTH FEMALE?

>> Carrie: WELL, AT OUR

ORGANIZATION, WERE NONPROFIT,

WE DON'T TAKE POLITICAL

POSITIONS.

BUT I DO THINK SHE'S IN A

POSITION OF LEADERSHIP.

SO THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION

IS, AS A LEADER, SHE REFLECTED

WITH THE MEMBERSHIP ONCE?

AND SO, I AGREE WITH RINA THAT

POSITION, AND THAT IF SHE

SPEAKING IN A WAY THAT'S

DISTRACTING FROM TRYING TO HOLD

BIDEN ACCOUNTABLE, THEN THAT'S

A PROBLEM.

AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, AND ALSO

FOCUSING ON THE ELECTION FOR

2022 IN TERMS OF BEING VERY

POLICY FOCUSED, AND THAT'S

REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO FOCUS

ON, ISSUES LIKE SCHOOL CHOICE,

ISSUES LIKE THE COVID RECOVERY,

REOPENING SCHOOLS,

CONSERVATIVES HAVE REALLY BEEN

PUSHING AND PUSHING TO GET THE

SCHOOLS OPEN AND DEMOCRATS HAVE

BEEN DRAGGING THEIR FEET ALL

ALONG THE WAY.

IN NEW YORK WHERE I'VE LIVED

FOR 10 YEARS, WILL CUOMO HAS

BEEN DOING THEIR -- I MEAN, SO

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLICY AND

DEMOCRATS WANT TO TALK ABOUT

INTERPARTY BICKERING.

AND I JUST -- THAT'S A PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT --

>> Debra: CAN I SAY'S

SOMETHING IN RESPONSE TO THAT?

THE ONLY THING THE GOP HAS

POINTED OUT WHERE SHE IS NOT IN

LOCKSTEP WITH THE REST OF THE

LEADERSHIP IS THE INSURRECTION

ON JANUARY 6 AGAINST THE

CAPITOL AND THE ELECTION

RESULTS OF LAST YEAR THAT HAD

JOE BIDEN WINNING AS PRESIDENT

AND CLAIMS OF DONALD TRUMP,

THAT THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED

AND STOLEN.

THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO THINGS

WERE SHE DISAGREES WITH THEM.

NOW, IF THEY WANT TO POINT OUT

OTHER THINGS, OTHER POLICY

MATTERS THAT SHE'S NOT SICK

WITH THE LEADERSHIP, I'D REALLY

BE HAPPY TO HEAR THEM.

>> Carrie: A BIG WIN'S FOREIGN

POLICY AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE

POINTED THAT OUT, THAT THE

DIRECTION WHERE THE REPUBLICAN

PARTY HAS BEEN IS ACTUALLY I

WOULD SAY MORE BIPARTISAN WITH

WHAT JOE BIDEN IS DOING IN

TERMS OF PULLING TROOPS OUT OF

AFGHANISTAN --

>> Del. Norton: SHE HAS MORE

THAN 90 PERCENT VOTING RECORD

WITH REPUBLICAN!

IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THESE

ISSUES THAT TEST THE

REPUBLICANS TO SEE WHETHER OR

NOT THERE IS ANY CAPACITY OF

THAT PARTY TO ABIDE ANYTHING

BUT 100 PERCENT UNIFORMITY.

THAT IS WHAT THE TEST WILL BE.

LOOK, SHE SURVIVED IT ONCE.

EVERYONE --

>> Bonnie: SHE SURVIVED IT

ONCE, BUT FIRST OF ALL, WE ALL

CONSUME -- CAN ASSUME THAT

ELISE STEFANIK WILL TAKE HER

PLACE, THAT SHE IS INDEED GOING

TO BE VOTED OUT OF HER

LEADERSHIP POSITION, THEN WHAT

HAPPENS TO HER?

I MEAN, DO WE ASSUME ABOUT

ELISE STEFANIK, AND LIZ CHENEY

HAS TO GO BACK TO YOUR AND A

HALF FROM NOW TO WYOMING AND

TRY TO GET REELECTED, WILL

HAPPEN TO HER THEN?

>> Del. Norton: THEY CERTAINLY

IMPERIL HER ELECTION IF THEY

DEPRIVE HER OF HER LEADERSHIP.

LET'S LOOK WHAT WE ARE HAVING

HERE: STEFANIK IS FROM NEW

YORK, A FAR MORE LIBERAL, IF I

CAN USE THAT WORD, REPUBLICAN

THAN WHOM SHE WOULD REPLACE.

SOME REPUBLICANS ARE AT WAR

WITH THEMSELVES AND CANNOT

FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY STAND AND

WHAT KIND OF PARTY THEY ARE.

>> Rina: WELL, AT LEAST

STEFANIK HAS DONE A

TRANSFORMATION.

SHE WENT FROM BEING VERY

LUKEWARM MODERATE ABOUT TRUMP

TO FULL ON SHOWING HERSELF

DURING THE FIRST IMPEACHMENT

TRIAL AND THAT SHE WAS VERY,

VERY -- I PARTICULARLY THOUGHT

BECAUSE I SPENT TIME WITH HER,

SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE WAS

AUDITIONING FOR LEADERSHIP.

LOOK, SHE'S GOING TO BE

SUCCESSFUL.

AND THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH

SORT OF THE OPTICS FOR THE

FUTURE.

THEY LIKE ALWAYS NOT JUST NOW

BECAUSE SHE'S A TRUMP

FOOTSOLDIER, BUT SHE'S A

MILLENNIAL.

SHE'S UNDER 40.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THAT DEM

LEADERSHIP, IT'S ALL 70, 80+.

SO THIS REPLACEMENT IS

SOMETHING I THINK REPUBLICAN

LEADERSHIP WILL EMBRACE AND

LOVE AND LIZ CHENEY, SHE'S

PUTTING COUNTRY OVER PARTY.

SHE EASILY COULD HAVE RUN FOR

SENATE AND HOW TO CLOSE COZY

SENATE SEAT.

AND SHE IS CHOSEN TO DO THIS

NOW BECAUSE SHE FEELS SOMETHING

SERIOUS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE

COUNTRY, BUT THE FUTURE OF OUR

REPUBLIC WITH WHAT DEMOCRACY IS

IN THE UNITED STATES.

STEFANIK IS LOOKING AT THE

BRIGHT LIGHTS, THE LAW OF

BROADWAY IF YOU ASK ME, AND

SORT OF THE DRAWBACK, THE POWER

THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP

SEEMS TO SEE THEIR BASE OF

VOTERS LOVE ABOUT TRUMP, EVEN

THOUGH --

>> Bonnie: WHAT DO WE KNOW

ABOUT THE PERSON WHO REPUBLICAN

S WHO ARE GOING TO BE PUT UP

AGAINST HER, WHICH WILL BE

PRO-TRUMP, AND HOW IS BACK ON A

PLANE WYOMING?OU KNOW, USED

TO BE SORT OF A LOW-INCOME

STATE.

OF COURSE WITH JACKSON HOLE AND

ALL THAT DEVELOPMENT IN

BILLIONAIRES MOVING IN THERE,

IT'S NO LONGER OVERWORKED --

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HUGE MONEY IN

JACKSON HOLE HAS SKEWED THE

ECONOMIC PICTURE OF THE STATE.

BUT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO

HAPPEN?

WILL THERE BE ENOUGH EDUCATED

REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO --

MORE SWING CERTAINLY IN POLLS

MORE LIKELY TO BE ANTI-TRUMP

AND OTHER REPUBLICANS?

>> Rina: I PERSONALLY DON'T

THINK LIZ CHENEY CARES IF SHE'S

REELECTED.

SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE'S DOING.

I THINK SHE WILL CONTINUE TO

SPEAK OUT, THAT SHE'S PUTTING

HERSELF AT RISK AT NOT COMING

BACK AND THAT'S FINE WITH HER

BECAUSE THAT'S A RISK YOU TAKE

WHEN YOU SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.

IN HER TRUTH TO POWER IS REALLY

FAX.

>> Bonnie: FROM THE POLITICS

OF THE PERSONAL TO THE SOUTHERN

BORDER STRATEGY: VP KAMALA

HARRIS LAID OUT THE

ADMINISTRATION'S PLAN TO STOP

THE SURGE OF MIGRATION FROM THE

NORTHERN TRIANGLE OF CENTRAL

AMERICA.

HARRIS'S HIGHEST PROFILE TASK

IS TO TACKLE THE IMMIGRATION

ISSUE.

AND SHE SAYS IN ORDER TO BRING

CHANGE, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON

BOTH THE ROOT CAUSES AND ACUTE

PROBLEMS CAUSING THE SITUATION.

ROOT CAUSES SUCH AS CORRUPTION,

POVERTY AND VIOLENCE, INCLUDING

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND ACUTE

PROBLEMS LIKE NATURAL DISASTERS

AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

AN ADDITIONAL $310 MILLION

WOULD BE ALLOCATED TO TACKLE

THE PROBLEM.

HARRIS PLANS TO VISIT MEXICO

AND THE REGION NEXT MONTH.

ALL RIGHT.

CARRIE, DO YOU THINK KAMALA

HARRIS'S PLAN IS GOING TO WORK?

>> Carrie: WELL, WHEN SHE SAID

THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A BIG

PROBLEM AND A DRIVING FACTOR

FOR WHAT WE SEE MORE IMMIGRANTS

COMING UP FROM CENTRAL AMERICA,

BUT THE REALITY IS IT'S BECAUSE

OF WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID,

AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER

A TIME WHEN DEMOCRATS WERE SO

UPSET ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S

EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH WERE

FAR FEWER THAN WHAT JOE BIDEN

HAS DONE, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN

HAS SO FAR JUST WITHIN HIS

FIRST, YOU KNOW, EFFORTS SIGNED

AT LEAST 10 EXECUTIVE ACTIONS

ON IMMIGRATION.

HE UNDID THE MEXICO, REMAIN IN

MEXICO POLICY AND THAT'S WHAT

BASICALLY THREW OPEN THE DOOR

AND INVITED ALL THESE

IMMIGRANTS TO COME.

WE HAVE SEEN RECORD NUMBERS OF

CHILDREN COMING OVER

UNACCOMPANIED THAT WE HAVE NOT

SEEN BEFORE EVER IN THE HISTORY

OF THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

AND IT'S TAKEN HIM MONTHS TO

ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WHAT WE HAVE

IS A CRISIS AT THE BORDER, THE

VICE PRESIDENT STILL REFUSES TO

GO DOWN THERE.

AND I WAS JUST LOOKING AT A NEW

POLL FROM HARVARD AND HARRIS

ASK THAT SAYS THE AMERICAN

PEOPLE WANT HER TO GO DOWN

THERE AND THEY WANT JOE BIDEN

TO GO DOWN THERE.

AND YOU CAN RENAME SOMETHING

HOWEVER YOU WANT.

THEY HAVE TRIED BUT FANCY NAMES

ON THE HOLDING FACILITIES.

THEY ARE THE SAME HOLDING

FACILITIES.

THEY ARE DOING THE SAME

POLICIES, IN SOME RESPECTS.

THEY ARE PICKING AND CHOOSING

WHAT THEY WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO

INCENTIVIZING THESE IMMIGRANTS

TO COME, THAT IS THE TRUE

FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

ELEANOR, I WAS LISTENING TO HER

SPEECH AS SHE GAVE IT LIVE.

IN TWO THINGS STUCK OUT: THE

FIRST ONE I WOULD ASK YOU

ABOUT, WHEN SHE SAID WE ARE

GOING TO STOP DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

IN THESE THREE NORTHERN CENTRAL

AMERICAN BORDER COUNTRIES, I

THOUGHT TO MYSELF, YOU CAN'T

EVEN FIX IT IN THE U.S. AND

YOU'RE GOING TO FIX IT IN THE

FOREIGN COUNTRIES?

>> Del. Norton: I MUST SAY I

HAVE NOT HEARD THAT ONE.

OMESTIC VIOLENCE, WE

UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY TO BE A

PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES,

BUT MORE OF A PROBLEM IN THESE

COUNTRIES.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE STEM REASON

PEOPLE ARE FLEEING.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS A LOT TO DO

WITH -- CORRUPTION HAS MORE TO

DO WITH IT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

IN THE NOTION THAT THE UNITED

STATES CAN FIX PROBLEMS IN

CENTRAL AMERICA SEEMS TO ME TO

BE FAR-FETCHED.

THEY ARE PROPOSING A FUND THAT

WOULD DISCOURAGE AMERICAN

COMPANIES FROM CORRUPTION --

DEALING WITH CORRUPT

GOVERNMENTS.

BUT FRANKLY, I THINK BOTH

ADMINISTRATIONS, MY OWN

DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, AND

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HAVE

BEEN GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES

AND THAT'S WHAT THE VICE

PRESIDENT IS DOING, WHICH IS

TRYING TO DEAL ON THE GROUND

WITH THOSE COMPANIES, IS THE

BEST CASE NOW FOR TRYING TO

TURN THIS AROUND.

>> Bonnie: BUT DON'T YOU --

DEBRA, LET ME GO TO YOU.O

YOU THINK THIS IS A CLASSIC

CASE OF BITING OFF WAY MORE

THAN YOU CAN CHEW?

I MEAN, IF YOU CAN'T STOP

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN YOUR OWN

COUNTRY, OR EVEN COME CLOSE,

ACTUALLY TRAFFICKING, YOU KNOW,

WHICH LEADS TO DOMESTIC

VIOLENCE OR IS A PRODUCT

SOMETIMES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE,

TRAFFICKING IN THIS COUNTRY IS

A WAY UP OVER WHERE IT WAS 10

YEARS AGO.

AND SHE'S TALKING ABOUT ENDING

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SOMEWHERE

ELSEO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE

VOTER IS GOING TO LISTEN TO

THAT AND SAY, WHY?

>> Debra: YEAH.

I AM 100 PERCENT IN AGREEMENT

WITH YOU.

IT IS A BROAD STROKE.

AND WE DO NOT GET TOO BROAD.

WE NEED TO FOCUS IN AND TAKE

REALISTIC STEPS.

NOW, WE CAN ENCOURAGE, WE CAN

ENCOURAGE PROGRAMS.

WE CAN PARTNER WITH, YOU KNOW,

PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE WE

HAVE DONE IN OTHER COUNTRIES,

LIKE ETHIOPIA, TO STOP DOMESTIC

VIOLENCE AND VIOLENCE AGAINST

WOMEN.

I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THAT THE

BIGGEST SURGE WE EVER SAW ON

OUR BORDERS WAS IN 2019.

SO THIS IS NOT NEW.

IT WAS GOING ON IN 2019.

I THINK THE PLAN IS ACTUALLY

BRILLIANT TO WORK ON THE

DOMESTIC ISSUES, AND AS ELINOR

POINTED OUT, THE CORRUPTION.

WE GO TO AFGHANISTAN AND WE TRY

AND CHANGE THAT COUNTRY AND

HELP PROTECT THE COUNTRY AND

CHANGE THINGS THERE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO TALK

ABOUT BORDER WALLS, WE

CERTAINLY SHOULD BE TALKING

ABOUT HELPING THE COUNTRIES

THAT ARE RIGHT THERE IN OUR

BACKYARD, IN THE AMERICAS.

AND I LIKE --

>> Bonnie: WELL, OKAY, BUT

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT NOT TOO

LONG AFTER WE PULL OUT IN

SEPTEMBER OF AFGHANISTAN, THE

TALIBAN ARE GOING TO TAKE BACK

OVER AND IT WILL HAVE BEEN

AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR BEING A

COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME, MONEY

AND LIVES.

AND SO, FOR YOU TO COMPARE THAT

-- AND I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF

TIME IN CENTRAL AMERICA.

I HAVE BEEN TO FOUR OF THE SIX

COUNTRIES, ONLY GUATEMALA ON

THE -- AMONG THE THROUGH THAT

SHE'S WORKING ON, GUATEMALA, EL

SALVADOR AND HONDURAS, BUT IT

BEEN TO COSTA RICA SEVERAL

TIMES, I'VE BEEN TO PANAMA.

I MEAN, ON AND ON AND ON.

ANYONE WHO HAS SPENT ANY TIME

THERE NEWS CORRUPTION IS SO

DEEP.

AND EVERY FAMILY IS INVOLVED IN

SOME WAY WITH THE GANGS BECAUSE

THE GANGS DEMAND THAT THE GIRLS

BECOME, YOU KNOW,

QUOTE/UNQUOTE, WIVES TO THE

GANG LEADERS, WHICH MEANS

ESSENTIALLY SUBMIT TO RAPE AND

PREGNANCY BY THEM.

AND THE BOYS, IF THEY DON'T

JOIN THE GANGS AND START

KILLING PEOPLE, THEY GET

KILLED.

THAT IS WHAT'S DRIVING THIS

WHOLE SURGE TO THE BORDER.

>> Debra: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH

YOU ON THAT.

THE REASON I USED AFGHANISTAN

'S ANALOGY WHEN I HEARD, WELL,

WHY GO IN THERE?

WE CAN FIX EVERYTHING, WE

CANNOT CHANGE IN THE WORLD.

WE GO IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD

AND HALF.

AND THEY USE AFGHANISTAN AS ONE

ILLUSTRATION.

NOT THAT IT WAS SUCCESSFUL, BUT

THIS IS IN OUR BACKYARD.

THIS IS CAUSING PROBLEMS THAT

BOTH SIDES CAN AGREE THERE IS A

SURGE ON OUR BORDERS AND HAS

BEEN AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT.

IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, HOW YOU

ADDRESS IT AND I LIKE THIS

APPROACH.

>> Carrie: NATIONBUILDING,

REMEMBER THAT PHRASE WHEN

GEORGE W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT.

ALL THE DEMOCRATS WERE SAYING

THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS IN A

ROCK IRAQ NATIONBUILDING.

YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.

AND BONNIE, I AGREE WITH YOU.

YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.

DEMOCRATS ALSO RUN THE RISK OF

ALIENATING THE AMERICAN VOTER

HERE BECAUSE THIS IS A BIG

REASON WHY TRUMP WON WITH HIS

AMERICA FIRST AGENDA.

WE HAVE A BIG PROBLEM ON THE

BORDER RIGHT NOW WITH COVID

TESTING, AND POLITICAL REACHED

OUT TO THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE

AND THEY SAID, WHY AREN'T YOU

MANDATING COVID TESTING FOR

EVERY IMMIGRANT THAT YOU

RELEASE INTO THE UNITED STATES,

AND THEY SAID, YEAH, IT'S NOT

MANDATORY.

WE ARE PARTNERING WITH THE

LOCAL CITIES.

THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM AND

SOMETHING WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN

WORKING ON ON THE INDEPENDENT

-- WITH THE PETITION CALLED

SAFE --

>> Bonnie: SORRY TO INTERRUPT

YOU, BUT WE ARE REALLY OUT OF

TIME ON THIS SEGMENT AND HAVE

TO GET TO THE NEXT ONE, SORRY.

WE WILL BRING YOU IN ON THE

NEXT ONE.

BUT IN HONOR OF MOTHER'S DAY,

"TO THE CONTRARY"'S EXECUTIVE

PRODUCER, CARI STEIN, SPOKE

WITH THE DAUGHTER OF EARTHA

KITT, WHOSE NAMES KITT SHAPIRO,

ABOUT HER MOTHER IN A

RELATIONSHIP.

SHE WAS A SINGER, ACTOR,

DANCER, ACTIVIST AND, QUOTE,

THE MOST EXCITING WOMAN ON

EARTH.

BUT TO HER DAUGHTER, KITT

SHAPIRO, SHE WAS JUST MOM.

SHAPIRO IS THE AUTHOR OF THE

NEW BOOK EARTHA.

>> SHE WOULD OFTEN INTRODUCE US

AND SAY I AM EARTHA AND THIS IS

TRYING TO 16 AS IF I COMPLETED

HER SOMEHOW.

>> Carrie: WHAT WAS IT LIKE

FOR YOU TO BE FIRST THE

DAUGHTER OF THIS FAMOUS WOMAN

AND ALWAYS WITH HER, BECAUSE

YOU TRAVELED WITH HER?

>> Kitt: SHE WAS A MOTHER

FIRST AND FOREMOST.

SO I DO THINK THAT WE HAD THAT

UNIQUE CONNECTION, THAT IT WAS

SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY AND WE

WERE BLESSED TO HAVE HAD IT.

WE ALSO BOTH KNEW THAT DURING

OUR LIVES TOGETHER, THIS IS NOT

SOMETHING I CAME TO AFTER SHE

LEFT FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS OF

HER LIFE, WE WILL LIFT OUR

LIVES LIKE THAT.

NOW, THAT BEING SAID, WE HAD A

VERY TYPICAL MOTHER-DAUGHTER

RELATIONSHIP.

THIS WAS NOT -- THEY WERE ROCKY

TIMES IN OUR LIVES.

I ROLLED MY EYES LIKE A TYPICAL

TEENAGER, DRIVING DOWN THE

STREET SHE WOULD BE DOING

FACIAL EXERCISES IN THE CAR AND

I WOULD BE MORTIFIED.

SHE WOULD TELL ME TO DO

SOMETHING AND, YOU KNOW, I

WOULD NOT WANT TO DO IT.

I MEAN, WE WERE

MOTHER-DAUGHTER.

>> Carrie: HOW HARD OR WERE

YOU REALLY NOT LED TO

UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT WAS IT FOR

HER TO BE -- TO HAVE SUCH AN

ALL-ENCOMPASSING CAREER AND BE

A SINGLE MOTHER?

AND, YOU KNOW, CREATE THE

SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?

>> Kitt: SHE DID NOT THINK OF

IT AS DIFFICULT AS ALL.

SHE FELT THAT, YOU KNOW, I JUST

WENT WITH HER.

THAT IS WHAT -- FROM THE DAY I

WAS OLD ENOUGH TO TRAVEL AS AN

INFANT, SHE LITERALLY TOUCHED

HER SHE WOULD SAY WOULD PUT THE

BABY ON ONE HIP AND THE DIAPER

BACK ON THE OTHER AND OFF WE

WOULD GO.

>> Carrie: WHICH YOU HAVE

ADVICE FROM OTHERS OF TODAY?

>> Kitt: JUST SHOW YOUR

CHILDREN AS MUCH LOVE AS YOU

POSSIBLY CAN.

BECAUSE SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT WE

ALL HAVE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE TO

DO, RIGHT, THAT WE ARE NOT ALL

PRIVILEGE TO STAY HOME TO TAKE

OUR CHILDREN WITH US.

MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO LEAVE THE

HOUSE.

BUT WHEN YOUR KIDS UNDERSTAND

THAT THEY ARE LOVED AND THEY

ARE CARED FOR AND YOU ARE

DOING, YOU KNOW, JUST DOING

WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, THAT I

THINK WOULD BE HER BIGGEST

PIECE OF ADVICE, SHARE YOUR

KIDS HOW MUCH YOU LOVE THEM.

PHYSICALLY SHOW THEM HOW MUCH

THEY ARE LOVED AND TELL THEM.

>> Bonnie: AND WE WILL BE

AIRING THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH

KITT SHAPIRO IN ANOTHER EPISODE

OF "TO THE CONTRARY", SO PLEASE

STAY TUNED.

ALL RIGHT.

NOW FIRST TO YOU, DEBRA

CARNAHAN, WHAT DO MOTHERS NEED

TO LEARN NOW ABOUT -- YOU KNOW,

FOR MOTHER'S DAY?

>> Debra: WELL, I THINK SOUTH

CAROLINA IS A VERY IMPORTANT

ASPECT THAT MOTHERS NEED TO BE

AWARE OF NOW, ESPECIALLY STILL

IN THE AGE OF COVID AND WHAT

WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE LAST 15

MONTHS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND THEY NEED TO PUT OUT THERE

WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE.

DON'T EXPECT YOUR SIGNIFICANT

OTHER OR YOUR CHILDREN TO

FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOU.

AND PART OF THAT SELF-CARE IS

BREATHING SPACE AND TIME AWAY

FOR YOURSELF.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS, RINA, AS

THE MOTHER OF TWO SMALL GIRLS.

>> Rina: ,OH, YEAH.

UNDER THE AGE OF FIVE, I MIGHT

ADD.

WELL, THIS IS A MOTHER'S DAY

UNLIKE ANY OTHER ONE.

BUT EVERY MOTHER'S DAY AM

REMINDED OF THE WORDS OF

ABRAHAM LINCOLN, OUR FORMER

PRESIDENT, ABOUT HIS MOTHER,

NANCY HAKES LINCOLN, AND HOW HE

SAYS THAT ALL I AM, ALTHOUGH I

HOPE TO BE USED TO, ANGEL

MOTHER, LOOSELY.

IN A REALLY FEEL THAT THAT IS

MY CASE.

I THINK ABOUT MY MOTHER ALL THE

TIME AND IN PARTICULAR HOW SHE

STEPPED UP IN THE PAST YEAR,

THOUGH SHE'S TURNING 65 THIS

YEAR.

SHE ACTS LIKE SHE'S 25, THE WAY

SHE DRIVES HOURS TO COME HELP

ME AND MY DAUGHTERS AND MY

HUSBAND AS WELL BE A REAL

PILLOW FOR US.

AND THAT'S BEEN IMPORTANT

BECAUSE MY MENTAL HEALTH HAS

REALLY SUFFERED IN THIS PAST

YEAR.

IN HER TO GIVE ME THOSE MENTAL

HEALTH TIMEOUTS FOR HER TO GIVE

ME TIME TO GO SEE MY

GIRLFRIENDS RECENTLY AND HAVE

COCKTAILS WITH THEM, WE ARE ALL

VACCINATED NOW, SO SHE SAYS

I'LL TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS, YOU

TO GO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

AND THAT IS WHAT MOTHERHOOD IS

ABOUT, ABOUT SUPPORTING WHEN

ANOTHER, REALIZING THAT WHAT WE

NEED AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO

BE DIFFERENT THIS MOTHER'S DAY.

WE NEED TO REOPEN THE SCHOOLS.

GIVE US THAT GIFT TOO!

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR

THOUGHTS.

YOU HAVE TWO GROWN CHILDREN.

>> Del. Norton: THIS MOTHER'S

DAY, I'M CELEBRATING THAT TWO

MOTHERS ARE LEADING OUR

COUNTRY, OUR VICE PRESIDENT

KAMALA HARRIS AND NANCY PELOSI,

THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF

REPRESENTATIVES.

THAT MEANS MOTHERS ARE GETTING

SOMEWHERE IN OUR COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie: YES, FINALLY.

WOO HOO.

CARRIE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Carrie: I AGREE WITH DEBRA.

MOTHERS NEED HEALTHY BOUNDARIES

TO BE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR

IDENTITY AS A MOTHER BUT ALSO

AS A WOMAN AND IN WHATEVER --

HOWEVER SHE DEFINES UP FOR

HERSELF AND I LOVE THE POEM,

THE HAND THAT ROCKS THE CRADLE

IS THE HAND THAT RULES THE

WORLD, THE POEM THAT CAME OUT

IN 1865.

AND I THINK THAT'S NEVER MORE

TRUE TODAY.

AND MOTHERS TRULY ARE

SUPERHEROES AND I SALUTE ALL OF

THEM.

MY MOTHER GAVE BIRTH TO 10

BABIES AM FAR BEHIND WITH

ZERO, BUT I AM AN ASPIRING

MOTHER.

BUT, YEAH, I SALUTE ALL THE

MOTHERS HERE ON THIS PANEL TOO.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW US ON OUR

PREVIOUS WEBSITE,

www.TOTHECONTRARY.org.

PLEASE ALSO FOLLOW US ON

TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND

FACEBOOK.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK

"TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN

US NEXT TIME.

, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC]

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN

ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE

CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS

WEBSITE AT

PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.