>> Bonnie: ARE THE GOOD OLD
BOYS IN THE GRAND OLD PARTY
SEXIST AS THEY TRIED TO BATTLE
THE HIGHEST-RANKING WOMAN IN
GOP LEADERSHIP?
THEN VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS
UNVEILS HER STRATEGY FOR
CENTRAL AMERICA AS SHE TRIES TO
CURB A SURGE OF IMMIGRATION ON
THE SOUTHERN BORDER.
BEHIND THE HEADLINES: MOTHER'S
DAY WORDS OF WISDOM FROM Eartha
Kitt AND HER DAUGHTER, Kitt
Shapiro.
[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.
I AM BONNIE ERBE.
WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A
WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND
SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE
PERSPECTIVES.
UP FIRST, ARE THE GOB'S -- GOOD
OLD BOYS -- IN THE GOP SEXIST?
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE LIZ CHENEY
IS STANDING FIRM DESPITE
MOUNTING PRESSURE FROM OTHER
REPUBLICANS TO KICK HER OUT AS
CHAIR OF THE HOUSE GOP
CONFERENCE. THAT'S THE THIRD
RANKING POSITION IN PARTY
LEADERSHIP, HER LIKELY
REPLACEMENT CONGRESSWOMAN ELISE
STEFANIK OF NEW YORK CHENEY IS
UNDER FIRE FOR HER CRITICISM OF
FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIES
ABOUT THE ELECTION. SHE WAS
ALSO ONE OF 10 REPUBLICANS WHO
VOTED FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT THIS
YEAR. STEFANIK IS A TRUMP
SUPPORTER AND IS CREDITED WITH
GETTING MORE REPUBLICAN WOMEN
ELECTED TO CONGRESS. BUT
STEFANIK IS MORE OF A MODERATE
THAN CHENEY, WHO IS THE
DAUGHTER OF VICE PRESIDENT DICK
CHENEY. WITH US TODAY ARE DC
DELEGATE CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR
HOLMES NORTON; FORMER JUDGE AND
FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, DEBORAH
CARNAHAN; REPUBLICAN
STRATEGIST, RINA SHAH BHARARA;
AND CARRIE SHEFFIELD, SENIOR
FELLOW AT THE INDEPENDENT
WOMEN'S FORUM. SO WHAT IS GOING
ON HERE, RINA?
ARE THESE GUYS SEXIST, OR IS
LIZ CHENEY JUST SPEAKING OUT A
BIT TOO MUCH AGAINST TRUMP?
>> Rina: BONNIE, I DON'T THINK
THIS ACTUALLY HAS TO DO WITH
SEX, THOUGH I THINK THIS IS THE
FACT, THAT SHE'S TAKEN A
TOTALLY DIFFERENT LINE THAN
THEY HAVE. PUBLICLY SHE'S
SAYING IN PUBLIC WHAT MOST ARE
WHISPERING IN PRIVATE. AND
THAT'S POLITICALLY INCONVENIENT
TO TODAY'S GOP, ESPECIALLY WHEN
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOUSE
LEADERSHIP, THEY NEED TO SEEM
UNITED. SHE'S MADE IT VERY
DIFFICULT FOR LEADER McCARTHY
TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE IT SEEM TO
NOT JUST THE DEMOCRATS, BUT TO
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WRIT LARGE,
THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND
WELL AND THAT THIS GOP IS
HEALTHY AND LOOKING FORWARD TO
THE FUTURE AS WELL AS TO 2024.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS ELEANOR?
ARE THEY PICKING ON HER BECAUSE
SHE'S A WOMAN OR ESPECIALLY
PICKING ON HER GOING TOO HARD?
LIKE AN OUTSPOKEN WOMAN WHO
DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM?
BEFORE THEY ARE VERY AFRAID
THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WILL
BE PERCEIVED.
AND SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW
IS REPLACING HER WITH ANOTHER
WOMAN TO TRY AND AUGMENT THAT
CRITICISM AND REPRESENTATIVE
STEFANIcK FROM NEW YORK, WHOSE
ANOTHER WOMAN, WOULD BE THERE
RESPONSE TO THE SEXISM
ALLEGATION THAT IS BOUND TO BE
LEVELED AGAINST THEM BECAUSE
THEY HAVE AN ALL-MALE
LEADERSHIP.
>> Bonnie: DEBRA CARNAHAN,
WOULD YOU THINK ABOUT THIS,
SEXIST OR NOT SEXIST?
>> Debra: I AGREE WITH ELEANOR
AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT THEY
ARE LOOKING AT THIS CONGRESS
WOMAN WHO REALLY IS MORE OF A
MODERATE THAN LIZ CHENEY AND
VOTED MORE AGAINST DONALD
TRUMP.
THIS IS ALL ABOUT TRUMP'S HIM.
THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE GOP BEING
TERRIFIED IN PRIMARIES IN 2022.
THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
IT ALSO GOES BACK TO DONALD
TRUMP.
THE ONLY AGENDA THAT I CAN TELL
THAT THE GOP HAS AT THIS POINT
IS STILL DONALD TRUMP, DO WHAT
DONALD TRUMP WANTS THEM TO DO.
>> Bonnie: WELL, THAT'S TRUE
OF THE VAST MAJORITY, CORRECT.
BUT THERE ARE SOME STANDING UP
AND SHE IS ONE OF THEM, SAYING
THAT TRUMP LIED ABOUT THE
ELECTION, HE DID NOT WIN THE
ELECTION.
IS JUST TRYING TO STIR UP
VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION IN THE
NATION'S CAPITOL.
>> Debra: AND SHE IS RIGHT,
AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
IT IS ANTI-TRUMP.
IT'S TELLING THE TRUTH.
AND DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER
CARED ABOUT THE TRUTH.
WHAT HE CARES ABOUT IS, ARE YOU
LOYAL TO ME?
THAT IS IS ONE CONDITION FOR
EVERYBODY IN HIS ORBIT OR
ANYONE THAT HE SUPPORTS.
>> Bonnie: CARRIE, YOUR
THOUGHTS -- STATED THAT HAS
BECOME THE CONDITION OF GOP.
>> Bonnie: LET'S LET CARRIE IN
HERE.
CARRIE, WOULD YOU THINK?
>> Carrie: SURE.
WILL THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS
THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOW THE
PRESIDENT AND I THINK THE MEDIA
IS TRYING TO VERY MUCH DISTRACT
THE NATIONAL AGENDA AWAY FROM
JOE BIDEN AND WHAT HE IS TRYING
TO DO.
HE'S TRYING TO FUNDAMENTALLY
RESTRUCTURE OUR ECONOMY WITH A
$6 TRILLION SPENDING PLAN.
THAT WOULD CRIPPLE OUR COUNTRY
WITH DEBT.
MY GENERATION, FUTURE BURDENS.
THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND WE
ARE NOT TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE
THE MEDIA WANTS US TO FOCUS ON
THIS INTERPARTY --
>> Bonnie: YOU THINK THE ME
TOO -- MEDIA ARE CONSPIRING?
I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND
CONSPIRING, AND CERTAINLY
EVERYONE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU
THAT SPINNING THIS LARGE NEEDS
TO BE DISCUSSED, IT NEEDS TO BE
DISCUSSED NOT ONLY BY BIDEN AND
MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION,
AND WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
THAT IN THE NEXT SEGMENT, BUT
IT ALSO NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED
BY THE VOTERS INTO REALLY SEE
IF THERE ARE SOME CRITICAL OF
WHAT THE VOTERS WANT.
LET'S GET BACK TO LIZ CHENEY
FOR A MOMENT.
DO YOU THINK THAT SHE IS BEING
SINGLED OUT FOR BEING A BIG
MOUTH FEMALE?
>> Carrie: WELL, AT OUR
ORGANIZATION, WERE NONPROFIT,
WE DON'T TAKE POLITICAL
POSITIONS.
BUT I DO THINK SHE'S IN A
POSITION OF LEADERSHIP.
SO THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION
IS, AS A LEADER, SHE REFLECTED
WITH THE MEMBERSHIP ONCE?
AND SO, I AGREE WITH RINA THAT
POSITION, AND THAT IF SHE
SPEAKING IN A WAY THAT'S
DISTRACTING FROM TRYING TO HOLD
BIDEN ACCOUNTABLE, THEN THAT'S
A PROBLEM.
AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, AND ALSO
FOCUSING ON THE ELECTION FOR
2022 IN TERMS OF BEING VERY
POLICY FOCUSED, AND THAT'S
REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO FOCUS
ON, ISSUES LIKE SCHOOL CHOICE,
ISSUES LIKE THE COVID RECOVERY,
REOPENING SCHOOLS,
CONSERVATIVES HAVE REALLY BEEN
PUSHING AND PUSHING TO GET THE
SCHOOLS OPEN AND DEMOCRATS HAVE
BEEN DRAGGING THEIR FEET ALL
ALONG THE WAY.
IN NEW YORK WHERE I'VE LIVED
FOR 10 YEARS, WILL CUOMO HAS
BEEN DOING THEIR -- I MEAN, SO
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLICY AND
DEMOCRATS WANT TO TALK ABOUT
INTERPARTY BICKERING.
AND I JUST -- THAT'S A PROBLEM.
>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT --
>> Debra: CAN I SAY'S
SOMETHING IN RESPONSE TO THAT?
THE ONLY THING THE GOP HAS
POINTED OUT WHERE SHE IS NOT IN
LOCKSTEP WITH THE REST OF THE
LEADERSHIP IS THE INSURRECTION
ON JANUARY 6 AGAINST THE
CAPITOL AND THE ELECTION
RESULTS OF LAST YEAR THAT HAD
JOE BIDEN WINNING AS PRESIDENT
AND CLAIMS OF DONALD TRUMP,
THAT THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED
AND STOLEN.
THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO THINGS
WERE SHE DISAGREES WITH THEM.
NOW, IF THEY WANT TO POINT OUT
OTHER THINGS, OTHER POLICY
MATTERS THAT SHE'S NOT SICK
WITH THE LEADERSHIP, I'D REALLY
BE HAPPY TO HEAR THEM.
>> Carrie: A BIG WIN'S FOREIGN
POLICY AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE
POINTED THAT OUT, THAT THE
DIRECTION WHERE THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY HAS BEEN IS ACTUALLY I
WOULD SAY MORE BIPARTISAN WITH
WHAT JOE BIDEN IS DOING IN
TERMS OF PULLING TROOPS OUT OF
AFGHANISTAN --
>> Del. Norton: SHE HAS MORE
THAN 90 PERCENT VOTING RECORD
WITH REPUBLICAN!
IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THESE
ISSUES THAT TEST THE
REPUBLICANS TO SEE WHETHER OR
NOT THERE IS ANY CAPACITY OF
THAT PARTY TO ABIDE ANYTHING
BUT 100 PERCENT UNIFORMITY.
THAT IS WHAT THE TEST WILL BE.
LOOK, SHE SURVIVED IT ONCE.
EVERYONE --
>> Bonnie: SHE SURVIVED IT
ONCE, BUT FIRST OF ALL, WE ALL
CONSUME -- CAN ASSUME THAT
ELISE STEFANIK WILL TAKE HER
PLACE, THAT SHE IS INDEED GOING
TO BE VOTED OUT OF HER
LEADERSHIP POSITION, THEN WHAT
HAPPENS TO HER?
I MEAN, DO WE ASSUME ABOUT
ELISE STEFANIK, AND LIZ CHENEY
HAS TO GO BACK TO YOUR AND A
HALF FROM NOW TO WYOMING AND
TRY TO GET REELECTED, WILL
HAPPEN TO HER THEN?
>> Del. Norton: THEY CERTAINLY
IMPERIL HER ELECTION IF THEY
DEPRIVE HER OF HER LEADERSHIP.
LET'S LOOK WHAT WE ARE HAVING
HERE: STEFANIK IS FROM NEW
YORK, A FAR MORE LIBERAL, IF I
CAN USE THAT WORD, REPUBLICAN
THAN WHOM SHE WOULD REPLACE.
SOME REPUBLICANS ARE AT WAR
WITH THEMSELVES AND CANNOT
FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY STAND AND
WHAT KIND OF PARTY THEY ARE.
>> Rina: WELL, AT LEAST
STEFANIK HAS DONE A
TRANSFORMATION.
SHE WENT FROM BEING VERY
LUKEWARM MODERATE ABOUT TRUMP
TO FULL ON SHOWING HERSELF
DURING THE FIRST IMPEACHMENT
TRIAL AND THAT SHE WAS VERY,
VERY -- I PARTICULARLY THOUGHT
BECAUSE I SPENT TIME WITH HER,
SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE WAS
AUDITIONING FOR LEADERSHIP.
LOOK, SHE'S GOING TO BE
SUCCESSFUL.
AND THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH
SORT OF THE OPTICS FOR THE
FUTURE.
THEY LIKE ALWAYS NOT JUST NOW
BECAUSE SHE'S A TRUMP
FOOTSOLDIER, BUT SHE'S A
MILLENNIAL.
SHE'S UNDER 40.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THAT DEM
LEADERSHIP, IT'S ALL 70, 80+.
SO THIS REPLACEMENT IS
SOMETHING I THINK REPUBLICAN
LEADERSHIP WILL EMBRACE AND
LOVE AND LIZ CHENEY, SHE'S
PUTTING COUNTRY OVER PARTY.
SHE EASILY COULD HAVE RUN FOR
SENATE AND HOW TO CLOSE COZY
SENATE SEAT.
AND SHE IS CHOSEN TO DO THIS
NOW BECAUSE SHE FEELS SOMETHING
SERIOUS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE
COUNTRY, BUT THE FUTURE OF OUR
REPUBLIC WITH WHAT DEMOCRACY IS
IN THE UNITED STATES.
STEFANIK IS LOOKING AT THE
BRIGHT LIGHTS, THE LAW OF
BROADWAY IF YOU ASK ME, AND
SORT OF THE DRAWBACK, THE POWER
THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP
SEEMS TO SEE THEIR BASE OF
VOTERS LOVE ABOUT TRUMP, EVEN
THOUGH --
>> Bonnie: WHAT DO WE KNOW
ABOUT THE PERSON WHO REPUBLICAN
S WHO ARE GOING TO BE PUT UP
AGAINST HER, WHICH WILL BE
PRO-TRUMP, AND HOW IS BACK ON A
PLANE WYOMING?OU KNOW, USED
TO BE SORT OF A LOW-INCOME
STATE.
OF COURSE WITH JACKSON HOLE AND
ALL THAT DEVELOPMENT IN
BILLIONAIRES MOVING IN THERE,
IT'S NO LONGER OVERWORKED --
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HUGE MONEY IN
JACKSON HOLE HAS SKEWED THE
ECONOMIC PICTURE OF THE STATE.
BUT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO
HAPPEN?
WILL THERE BE ENOUGH EDUCATED
REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO --
MORE SWING CERTAINLY IN POLLS
MORE LIKELY TO BE ANTI-TRUMP
AND OTHER REPUBLICANS?
>> Rina: I PERSONALLY DON'T
THINK LIZ CHENEY CARES IF SHE'S
REELECTED.
SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE'S DOING.
I THINK SHE WILL CONTINUE TO
SPEAK OUT, THAT SHE'S PUTTING
HERSELF AT RISK AT NOT COMING
BACK AND THAT'S FINE WITH HER
BECAUSE THAT'S A RISK YOU TAKE
WHEN YOU SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.
IN HER TRUTH TO POWER IS REALLY
FAX.
>> Bonnie: FROM THE POLITICS
OF THE PERSONAL TO THE SOUTHERN
BORDER STRATEGY: VP KAMALA
HARRIS LAID OUT THE
ADMINISTRATION'S PLAN TO STOP
THE SURGE OF MIGRATION FROM THE
NORTHERN TRIANGLE OF CENTRAL
AMERICA.
HARRIS'S HIGHEST PROFILE TASK
IS TO TACKLE THE IMMIGRATION
ISSUE.
AND SHE SAYS IN ORDER TO BRING
CHANGE, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON
BOTH THE ROOT CAUSES AND ACUTE
PROBLEMS CAUSING THE SITUATION.
ROOT CAUSES SUCH AS CORRUPTION,
POVERTY AND VIOLENCE, INCLUDING
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND ACUTE
PROBLEMS LIKE NATURAL DISASTERS
AND CLIMATE CHANGE.
AN ADDITIONAL $310 MILLION
WOULD BE ALLOCATED TO TACKLE
THE PROBLEM.
HARRIS PLANS TO VISIT MEXICO
AND THE REGION NEXT MONTH.
ALL RIGHT.
CARRIE, DO YOU THINK KAMALA
HARRIS'S PLAN IS GOING TO WORK?
>> Carrie: WELL, WHEN SHE SAID
THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A BIG
PROBLEM AND A DRIVING FACTOR
FOR WHAT WE SEE MORE IMMIGRANTS
COMING UP FROM CENTRAL AMERICA,
BUT THE REALITY IS IT'S BECAUSE
OF WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID,
AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER
A TIME WHEN DEMOCRATS WERE SO
UPSET ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S
EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH WERE
FAR FEWER THAN WHAT JOE BIDEN
HAS DONE, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN
HAS SO FAR JUST WITHIN HIS
FIRST, YOU KNOW, EFFORTS SIGNED
AT LEAST 10 EXECUTIVE ACTIONS
ON IMMIGRATION.
HE UNDID THE MEXICO, REMAIN IN
MEXICO POLICY AND THAT'S WHAT
BASICALLY THREW OPEN THE DOOR
AND INVITED ALL THESE
IMMIGRANTS TO COME.
WE HAVE SEEN RECORD NUMBERS OF
CHILDREN COMING OVER
UNACCOMPANIED THAT WE HAVE NOT
SEEN BEFORE EVER IN THE HISTORY
OF THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
AND IT'S TAKEN HIM MONTHS TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WHAT WE HAVE
IS A CRISIS AT THE BORDER, THE
VICE PRESIDENT STILL REFUSES TO
GO DOWN THERE.
AND I WAS JUST LOOKING AT A NEW
POLL FROM HARVARD AND HARRIS
ASK THAT SAYS THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE WANT HER TO GO DOWN
THERE AND THEY WANT JOE BIDEN
TO GO DOWN THERE.
AND YOU CAN RENAME SOMETHING
HOWEVER YOU WANT.
THEY HAVE TRIED BUT FANCY NAMES
ON THE HOLDING FACILITIES.
THEY ARE THE SAME HOLDING
FACILITIES.
THEY ARE DOING THE SAME
POLICIES, IN SOME RESPECTS.
THEY ARE PICKING AND CHOOSING
WHAT THEY WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.
BUT WHEN IT COMES TO
INCENTIVIZING THESE IMMIGRANTS
TO COME, THAT IS THE TRUE
FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.
>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.
ELEANOR, I WAS LISTENING TO HER
SPEECH AS SHE GAVE IT LIVE.
IN TWO THINGS STUCK OUT: THE
FIRST ONE I WOULD ASK YOU
ABOUT, WHEN SHE SAID WE ARE
GOING TO STOP DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
IN THESE THREE NORTHERN CENTRAL
AMERICAN BORDER COUNTRIES, I
THOUGHT TO MYSELF, YOU CAN'T
EVEN FIX IT IN THE U.S. AND
YOU'RE GOING TO FIX IT IN THE
FOREIGN COUNTRIES?
>> Del. Norton: I MUST SAY I
HAVE NOT HEARD THAT ONE.
OMESTIC VIOLENCE, WE
UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY TO BE A
PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES,
BUT MORE OF A PROBLEM IN THESE
COUNTRIES.
BUT THAT'S NOT THE STEM REASON
PEOPLE ARE FLEEING.
CLIMATE CHANGE IS A LOT TO DO
WITH -- CORRUPTION HAS MORE TO
DO WITH IT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
IN THE NOTION THAT THE UNITED
STATES CAN FIX PROBLEMS IN
CENTRAL AMERICA SEEMS TO ME TO
BE FAR-FETCHED.
THEY ARE PROPOSING A FUND THAT
WOULD DISCOURAGE AMERICAN
COMPANIES FROM CORRUPTION --
DEALING WITH CORRUPT
GOVERNMENTS.
BUT FRANKLY, I THINK BOTH
ADMINISTRATIONS, MY OWN
DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, AND
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HAVE
BEEN GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES
AND THAT'S WHAT THE VICE
PRESIDENT IS DOING, WHICH IS
TRYING TO DEAL ON THE GROUND
WITH THOSE COMPANIES, IS THE
BEST CASE NOW FOR TRYING TO
TURN THIS AROUND.
>> Bonnie: BUT DON'T YOU --
DEBRA, LET ME GO TO YOU.O
YOU THINK THIS IS A CLASSIC
CASE OF BITING OFF WAY MORE
THAN YOU CAN CHEW?
I MEAN, IF YOU CAN'T STOP
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN YOUR OWN
COUNTRY, OR EVEN COME CLOSE,
ACTUALLY TRAFFICKING, YOU KNOW,
WHICH LEADS TO DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE OR IS A PRODUCT
SOMETIMES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE,
TRAFFICKING IN THIS COUNTRY IS
A WAY UP OVER WHERE IT WAS 10
YEARS AGO.
AND SHE'S TALKING ABOUT ENDING
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SOMEWHERE
ELSEO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE
VOTER IS GOING TO LISTEN TO
THAT AND SAY, WHY?
>> Debra: YEAH.
I AM 100 PERCENT IN AGREEMENT
WITH YOU.
IT IS A BROAD STROKE.
AND WE DO NOT GET TOO BROAD.
WE NEED TO FOCUS IN AND TAKE
REALISTIC STEPS.
NOW, WE CAN ENCOURAGE, WE CAN
ENCOURAGE PROGRAMS.
WE CAN PARTNER WITH, YOU KNOW,
PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE WE
HAVE DONE IN OTHER COUNTRIES,
LIKE ETHIOPIA, TO STOP DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE AND VIOLENCE AGAINST
WOMEN.
I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THAT THE
BIGGEST SURGE WE EVER SAW ON
OUR BORDERS WAS IN 2019.
SO THIS IS NOT NEW.
IT WAS GOING ON IN 2019.
I THINK THE PLAN IS ACTUALLY
BRILLIANT TO WORK ON THE
DOMESTIC ISSUES, AND AS ELINOR
POINTED OUT, THE CORRUPTION.
WE GO TO AFGHANISTAN AND WE TRY
AND CHANGE THAT COUNTRY AND
HELP PROTECT THE COUNTRY AND
CHANGE THINGS THERE.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO TALK
ABOUT BORDER WALLS, WE
CERTAINLY SHOULD BE TALKING
ABOUT HELPING THE COUNTRIES
THAT ARE RIGHT THERE IN OUR
BACKYARD, IN THE AMERICAS.
AND I LIKE --
>> Bonnie: WELL, OKAY, BUT
EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT NOT TOO
LONG AFTER WE PULL OUT IN
SEPTEMBER OF AFGHANISTAN, THE
TALIBAN ARE GOING TO TAKE BACK
OVER AND IT WILL HAVE BEEN
AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR BEING A
COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME, MONEY
AND LIVES.
AND SO, FOR YOU TO COMPARE THAT
-- AND I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF
TIME IN CENTRAL AMERICA.
I HAVE BEEN TO FOUR OF THE SIX
COUNTRIES, ONLY GUATEMALA ON
THE -- AMONG THE THROUGH THAT
SHE'S WORKING ON, GUATEMALA, EL
SALVADOR AND HONDURAS, BUT IT
BEEN TO COSTA RICA SEVERAL
TIMES, I'VE BEEN TO PANAMA.
I MEAN, ON AND ON AND ON.
ANYONE WHO HAS SPENT ANY TIME
THERE NEWS CORRUPTION IS SO
DEEP.
AND EVERY FAMILY IS INVOLVED IN
SOME WAY WITH THE GANGS BECAUSE
THE GANGS DEMAND THAT THE GIRLS
BECOME, YOU KNOW,
QUOTE/UNQUOTE, WIVES TO THE
GANG LEADERS, WHICH MEANS
ESSENTIALLY SUBMIT TO RAPE AND
PREGNANCY BY THEM.
AND THE BOYS, IF THEY DON'T
JOIN THE GANGS AND START
KILLING PEOPLE, THEY GET
KILLED.
THAT IS WHAT'S DRIVING THIS
WHOLE SURGE TO THE BORDER.
>> Debra: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH
YOU ON THAT.
THE REASON I USED AFGHANISTAN
'S ANALOGY WHEN I HEARD, WELL,
WHY GO IN THERE?
WE CAN FIX EVERYTHING, WE
CANNOT CHANGE IN THE WORLD.
WE GO IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD
AND HALF.
AND THEY USE AFGHANISTAN AS ONE
ILLUSTRATION.
NOT THAT IT WAS SUCCESSFUL, BUT
THIS IS IN OUR BACKYARD.
THIS IS CAUSING PROBLEMS THAT
BOTH SIDES CAN AGREE THERE IS A
SURGE ON OUR BORDERS AND HAS
BEEN AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT.
IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, HOW YOU
ADDRESS IT AND I LIKE THIS
APPROACH.
>> Carrie: NATIONBUILDING,
REMEMBER THAT PHRASE WHEN
GEORGE W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT.
ALL THE DEMOCRATS WERE SAYING
THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS IN A
ROCK IRAQ NATIONBUILDING.
YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.
AND BONNIE, I AGREE WITH YOU.
YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.
DEMOCRATS ALSO RUN THE RISK OF
ALIENATING THE AMERICAN VOTER
HERE BECAUSE THIS IS A BIG
REASON WHY TRUMP WON WITH HIS
AMERICA FIRST AGENDA.
WE HAVE A BIG PROBLEM ON THE
BORDER RIGHT NOW WITH COVID
TESTING, AND POLITICAL REACHED
OUT TO THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE
AND THEY SAID, WHY AREN'T YOU
MANDATING COVID TESTING FOR
EVERY IMMIGRANT THAT YOU
RELEASE INTO THE UNITED STATES,
AND THEY SAID, YEAH, IT'S NOT
MANDATORY.
WE ARE PARTNERING WITH THE
LOCAL CITIES.
THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM AND
SOMETHING WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN
WORKING ON ON THE INDEPENDENT
-- WITH THE PETITION CALLED
SAFE --
>> Bonnie: SORRY TO INTERRUPT
YOU, BUT WE ARE REALLY OUT OF
TIME ON THIS SEGMENT AND HAVE
TO GET TO THE NEXT ONE, SORRY.
WE WILL BRING YOU IN ON THE
NEXT ONE.
BUT IN HONOR OF MOTHER'S DAY,
"TO THE CONTRARY"'S EXECUTIVE
PRODUCER, CARI STEIN, SPOKE
WITH THE DAUGHTER OF EARTHA
KITT, WHOSE NAMES KITT SHAPIRO,
ABOUT HER MOTHER IN A
RELATIONSHIP.
SHE WAS A SINGER, ACTOR,
DANCER, ACTIVIST AND, QUOTE,
THE MOST EXCITING WOMAN ON
EARTH.
BUT TO HER DAUGHTER, KITT
SHAPIRO, SHE WAS JUST MOM.
SHAPIRO IS THE AUTHOR OF THE
NEW BOOK EARTHA.
>> SHE WOULD OFTEN INTRODUCE US
AND SAY I AM EARTHA AND THIS IS
TRYING TO 16 AS IF I COMPLETED
HER SOMEHOW.
>> Carrie: WHAT WAS IT LIKE
FOR YOU TO BE FIRST THE
DAUGHTER OF THIS FAMOUS WOMAN
AND ALWAYS WITH HER, BECAUSE
YOU TRAVELED WITH HER?
>> Kitt: SHE WAS A MOTHER
FIRST AND FOREMOST.
SO I DO THINK THAT WE HAD THAT
UNIQUE CONNECTION, THAT IT WAS
SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY AND WE
WERE BLESSED TO HAVE HAD IT.
WE ALSO BOTH KNEW THAT DURING
OUR LIVES TOGETHER, THIS IS NOT
SOMETHING I CAME TO AFTER SHE
LEFT FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS OF
HER LIFE, WE WILL LIFT OUR
LIVES LIKE THAT.
NOW, THAT BEING SAID, WE HAD A
VERY TYPICAL MOTHER-DAUGHTER
RELATIONSHIP.
THIS WAS NOT -- THEY WERE ROCKY
TIMES IN OUR LIVES.
I ROLLED MY EYES LIKE A TYPICAL
TEENAGER, DRIVING DOWN THE
STREET SHE WOULD BE DOING
FACIAL EXERCISES IN THE CAR AND
I WOULD BE MORTIFIED.
SHE WOULD TELL ME TO DO
SOMETHING AND, YOU KNOW, I
WOULD NOT WANT TO DO IT.
I MEAN, WE WERE
MOTHER-DAUGHTER.
>> Carrie: HOW HARD OR WERE
YOU REALLY NOT LED TO
UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT WAS IT FOR
HER TO BE -- TO HAVE SUCH AN
ALL-ENCOMPASSING CAREER AND BE
A SINGLE MOTHER?
AND, YOU KNOW, CREATE THE
SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?
>> Kitt: SHE DID NOT THINK OF
IT AS DIFFICULT AS ALL.
SHE FELT THAT, YOU KNOW, I JUST
WENT WITH HER.
THAT IS WHAT -- FROM THE DAY I
WAS OLD ENOUGH TO TRAVEL AS AN
INFANT, SHE LITERALLY TOUCHED
HER SHE WOULD SAY WOULD PUT THE
BABY ON ONE HIP AND THE DIAPER
BACK ON THE OTHER AND OFF WE
WOULD GO.
>> Carrie: WHICH YOU HAVE
ADVICE FROM OTHERS OF TODAY?
>> Kitt: JUST SHOW YOUR
CHILDREN AS MUCH LOVE AS YOU
POSSIBLY CAN.
BECAUSE SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT WE
ALL HAVE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE TO
DO, RIGHT, THAT WE ARE NOT ALL
PRIVILEGE TO STAY HOME TO TAKE
OUR CHILDREN WITH US.
MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO LEAVE THE
HOUSE.
BUT WHEN YOUR KIDS UNDERSTAND
THAT THEY ARE LOVED AND THEY
ARE CARED FOR AND YOU ARE
DOING, YOU KNOW, JUST DOING
WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, THAT I
THINK WOULD BE HER BIGGEST
PIECE OF ADVICE, SHARE YOUR
KIDS HOW MUCH YOU LOVE THEM.
PHYSICALLY SHOW THEM HOW MUCH
THEY ARE LOVED AND TELL THEM.
>> Bonnie: AND WE WILL BE
AIRING THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH
KITT SHAPIRO IN ANOTHER EPISODE
OF "TO THE CONTRARY", SO PLEASE
STAY TUNED.
ALL RIGHT.
NOW FIRST TO YOU, DEBRA
CARNAHAN, WHAT DO MOTHERS NEED
TO LEARN NOW ABOUT -- YOU KNOW,
FOR MOTHER'S DAY?
>> Debra: WELL, I THINK SOUTH
CAROLINA IS A VERY IMPORTANT
ASPECT THAT MOTHERS NEED TO BE
AWARE OF NOW, ESPECIALLY STILL
IN THE AGE OF COVID AND WHAT
WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE LAST 15
MONTHS IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND THEY NEED TO PUT OUT THERE
WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE.
DON'T EXPECT YOUR SIGNIFICANT
OTHER OR YOUR CHILDREN TO
FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOU.
AND PART OF THAT SELF-CARE IS
BREATHING SPACE AND TIME AWAY
FOR YOURSELF.
>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS, RINA, AS
THE MOTHER OF TWO SMALL GIRLS.
>> Rina: ,OH, YEAH.
UNDER THE AGE OF FIVE, I MIGHT
ADD.
WELL, THIS IS A MOTHER'S DAY
UNLIKE ANY OTHER ONE.
BUT EVERY MOTHER'S DAY AM
REMINDED OF THE WORDS OF
ABRAHAM LINCOLN, OUR FORMER
PRESIDENT, ABOUT HIS MOTHER,
NANCY HAKES LINCOLN, AND HOW HE
SAYS THAT ALL I AM, ALTHOUGH I
HOPE TO BE USED TO, ANGEL
MOTHER, LOOSELY.
IN A REALLY FEEL THAT THAT IS
MY CASE.
I THINK ABOUT MY MOTHER ALL THE
TIME AND IN PARTICULAR HOW SHE
STEPPED UP IN THE PAST YEAR,
THOUGH SHE'S TURNING 65 THIS
YEAR.
SHE ACTS LIKE SHE'S 25, THE WAY
SHE DRIVES HOURS TO COME HELP
ME AND MY DAUGHTERS AND MY
HUSBAND AS WELL BE A REAL
PILLOW FOR US.
AND THAT'S BEEN IMPORTANT
BECAUSE MY MENTAL HEALTH HAS
REALLY SUFFERED IN THIS PAST
YEAR.
IN HER TO GIVE ME THOSE MENTAL
HEALTH TIMEOUTS FOR HER TO GIVE
ME TIME TO GO SEE MY
GIRLFRIENDS RECENTLY AND HAVE
COCKTAILS WITH THEM, WE ARE ALL
VACCINATED NOW, SO SHE SAYS
I'LL TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS, YOU
TO GO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.
AND THAT IS WHAT MOTHERHOOD IS
ABOUT, ABOUT SUPPORTING WHEN
ANOTHER, REALIZING THAT WHAT WE
NEED AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO
BE DIFFERENT THIS MOTHER'S DAY.
WE NEED TO REOPEN THE SCHOOLS.
GIVE US THAT GIFT TOO!
>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR
THOUGHTS.
YOU HAVE TWO GROWN CHILDREN.
>> Del. Norton: THIS MOTHER'S
DAY, I'M CELEBRATING THAT TWO
MOTHERS ARE LEADING OUR
COUNTRY, OUR VICE PRESIDENT
KAMALA HARRIS AND NANCY PELOSI,
THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES.
THAT MEANS MOTHERS ARE GETTING
SOMEWHERE IN OUR COUNTRY.
>> Bonnie: YES, FINALLY.
WOO HOO.
CARRIE, YOUR THOUGHTS.
>> Carrie: I AGREE WITH DEBRA.
MOTHERS NEED HEALTHY BOUNDARIES
TO BE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR
IDENTITY AS A MOTHER BUT ALSO
AS A WOMAN AND IN WHATEVER --
HOWEVER SHE DEFINES UP FOR
HERSELF AND I LOVE THE POEM,
THE HAND THAT ROCKS THE CRADLE
IS THE HAND THAT RULES THE
WORLD, THE POEM THAT CAME OUT
IN 1865.
AND I THINK THAT'S NEVER MORE
TRUE TODAY.
AND MOTHERS TRULY ARE
SUPERHEROES AND I SALUTE ALL OF
THEM.
MY MOTHER GAVE BIRTH TO 10
BABIES AM FAR BEHIND WITH
ZERO, BUT I AM AN ASPIRING
MOTHER.
BUT, YEAH, I SALUTE ALL THE
MOTHERS HERE ON THIS PANEL TOO.
>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.
PLEASE FOLLOW US ON OUR
PREVIOUS WEBSITE,
www.TOTHECONTRARY.org.
PLEASE ALSO FOLLOW US ON
TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND
FACEBOOK.
AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK
"TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN
US NEXT TIME.
, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.
[MUSIC]
FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN
ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE
CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS
WEBSITE AT
PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.