1 00:00:00,233 --> 00:00:00,800 ♪♪ 2 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:20,200 BONNIE: HELLO. 3 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,366 I'’’M BONNIE ERBE. 4 00:00:24,366 --> 00:00:27,900 WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A 5 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:30,866 DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL 6 00:00:30,866 --> 00:00:31,966 TRENDS FROM DIVERSE 7 00:00:31,966 --> 00:00:32,400 PERSPECTIVES. 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:33,633 30 YEARS AGO, ANITA HILL 9 00:00:33,633 --> 00:00:36,833 TESTIFIED TO A SENATE HEARING 10 00:00:36,833 --> 00:00:39,333 ABOUT SUPREME COURT NOMINEE 11 00:00:39,333 --> 00:00:39,800 CLARENCE THOMAS. 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,766 IT WAS A BOLD MOVE. 13 00:00:41,766 --> 00:00:44,200 HILL TOLD THE ALL-WHITE MALE 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:44,900 PANEL THAT THOMAS SEXUALLY 15 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:48,200 HARASSED HER WHEN SHE WORKED FOR 16 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:48,866 HIM AT THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY 17 00:00:48,866 --> 00:00:51,133 EMPLOYMENT -- EQUAL EMPLOYMENT 18 00:00:51,133 --> 00:00:52,166 OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION. 19 00:00:52,166 --> 00:00:55,733 THOMAS WAS STILL SELECTED TO 20 00:00:55,733 --> 00:00:57,633 SERVE ON THE HIGH COURT, BUT 21 00:00:57,633 --> 00:00:59,766 HILL'’’S BOLD TESTIMONY SERVED AS 22 00:00:59,766 --> 00:01:02,166 THE CATALYST FOR OTHER WOMEN TO 23 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:03,766 COME FORWARD AND SPEAK ABOUT 24 00:01:03,766 --> 00:01:07,200 SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND ASSAULT IN 25 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:07,633 THE WORKPLACE. 26 00:01:07,633 --> 00:01:10,833 IT ALSO SET ANITA HILL ON A 27 00:01:10,833 --> 00:01:15,666 30-YEAR JOURNEY TO END GENDER 28 00:01:15,666 --> 00:01:16,033 VIOLENCE. 29 00:01:16,033 --> 00:01:20,200 TODAY, HILL IS A PROFESSOR OF 30 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,000 SOCIAL POLICY AND WOMEN'’’S GENDER 31 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,600 AND SEXUALITY STUDIES AT RAND 32 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,133 ICE UNIVERSITY. 33 00:01:25,133 --> 00:01:26,766 SHE JOINS ME TODAY TO TALK ABOUT 34 00:01:26,766 --> 00:01:32,100 HER NEW BOOK "BELIEVING." 35 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:32,633 WELCOME, ANITA HILL. 36 00:01:32,633 --> 00:01:33,900 WE ARE SO THRILLED TO HAVE YOU. 37 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:37,966 MS. HILL: IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE 38 00:01:37,966 --> 00:01:38,866 ON YOUR PROGRAM. 39 00:01:38,866 --> 00:01:41,100 BONNIE: FIRST, TELL THE 40 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:42,133 AUDIENCE, WHY THE TITLE 41 00:01:42,133 --> 00:01:44,200 "BELIEVING?" 42 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,900 MS. HILL: IT REALLY CAME FROM 43 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:49,500 LISTENING TO VICTIMS AND 44 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:51,666 SURVIVORS, HEARING ON THEM -- 45 00:01:51,666 --> 00:01:56,133 HEARING FROM THEM, AND REALLY 46 00:01:56,133 --> 00:01:57,633 BELIEVING THAT WE NEEDED TO DO 47 00:01:57,633 --> 00:02:00,633 BETTER FROM ALL STANDPOINTS OF 48 00:02:00,633 --> 00:02:02,600 THE KIND OF BEHAVIOR THAT WE ARE 49 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,233 EXPERIENCING, IF IT IS BULLYING 50 00:02:04,233 --> 00:02:07,766 OR SEXUAL ASSAULT OR HARASSMENT 51 00:02:07,766 --> 00:02:08,600 OR RAPE OR INTIMATE PARTNER 52 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:08,966 VIOLENCE. 53 00:02:08,966 --> 00:02:12,833 BONNIE: HAVE WE GOTTEN THERE 54 00:02:12,833 --> 00:02:13,100 YET? 55 00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:17,733 MS. HILL: IN THE 30 YEARS, WE 56 00:02:17,733 --> 00:02:18,566 CERTAINLY HAVE NOT GOTTEN WHERE 57 00:02:18,566 --> 00:02:19,300 WE NEED TO BE. 58 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:21,033 I THINK WE HAVE MADE SOME 59 00:02:21,033 --> 00:02:21,400 PROGRESS. 60 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,400 WE HAVE LEARNED TO IDENTIFY 61 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:24,766 BEHAVIORS. 62 00:02:24,766 --> 00:02:33,033 WE HAVE TAPPED INTO AND MAYBE 63 00:02:33,033 --> 00:02:36,600 ADJUSTED SOME OF OUR CULTURAL 64 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:37,233 RESPONSES TO THE PROBLEM. 65 00:02:37,233 --> 00:02:40,566 I THINK THERE'’’S LESS VICTIM 66 00:02:40,566 --> 00:02:45,866 BLAMING GOING ON, BUT THAT'’’S NOT 67 00:02:45,866 --> 00:02:46,300 ENTIRELY OVER. 68 00:02:46,300 --> 00:02:51,633 WE STILL DISMISS THE HARM THIS 69 00:02:51,633 --> 00:02:53,900 PROBLEM CAUSES INDIVIDUALS AND 70 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:55,800 COMMUNITIES IN OUR SOCIETY AT 71 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:56,100 LARGE. 72 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:56,800 WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN THERE WITH 73 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,266 OUR STRUCTURES. 74 00:02:58,266 --> 00:03:00,233 WE STILL HAVE POLICIES AND 75 00:03:00,233 --> 00:03:02,066 PROCESSES IN PLACE THAT REALLY 76 00:03:02,066 --> 00:03:04,766 HAVE FAILED US AND WILL CONTINUE 77 00:03:04,766 --> 00:03:08,600 TO FAIL US UNTIL WE CHANGE THEM. 78 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,533 BONNIE: I REMEMBER COVERING THAT 79 00:03:12,533 --> 00:03:14,500 HEARING. 80 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:18,100 I WAS WORKING FOR A RADIO 81 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:19,200 NETWORK AS A SUPREME COURT 82 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:20,633 CORRESPONDENT AT THE TIME. 83 00:03:20,633 --> 00:03:23,333 I REMEMBER THINKING OF YOU AS A 84 00:03:23,333 --> 00:03:25,600 REALLY BRAVE, REALLY SCARED 85 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,666 INDIVIDUAL, AND OF COURSE, 86 00:03:27,666 --> 00:03:28,166 APPROPRIATELY SO. 87 00:03:28,166 --> 00:03:31,833 THAT HEARING SHATTERED THE 88 00:03:31,833 --> 00:03:32,666 UNIVERSE. 89 00:03:32,666 --> 00:03:34,833 THERE YOU WERE, CONFRONTING A 90 00:03:34,833 --> 00:03:35,533 MAN WHO EVERYBODY PRETTY MUCH 91 00:03:35,533 --> 00:03:39,900 KNEW WAS GOING TO GET THROUGH 92 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:42,233 REGARDLESS. 93 00:03:42,233 --> 00:03:43,366 HOW DID YOU FEEL? 94 00:03:43,366 --> 00:03:48,700 MS. HILL: FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE 95 00:03:48,700 --> 00:03:50,166 BEEN CALLED BRAVE OR COURAGEOUS, 96 00:03:50,166 --> 00:03:50,933 AND I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND 97 00:03:50,933 --> 00:03:53,000 THAT BEING COURAGEOUS DOES NOT 98 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,066 MEAN BEING FEARLESS. 99 00:03:56,066 --> 00:03:57,233 WHEN YOU ARE COURAGEOUS, YOU 100 00:03:57,233 --> 00:03:59,366 TAKE ON YOUR FEARS, AND THAT IS 101 00:03:59,366 --> 00:04:01,500 EXACTLY WHAT I TRIED TO DO, TO 102 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:02,000 TAKE ON MY FEARS. 103 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,500 I THOUGHT, AND I THINK EVEN 104 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:09,833 TODAY, THAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF 105 00:04:09,833 --> 00:04:15,233 NOT TESTIFYING WERE BIGGER THAN 106 00:04:15,233 --> 00:04:16,300 ANY FEARS I HAD ABOUT 107 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:16,700 TESTIFYING. 108 00:04:16,700 --> 00:04:19,766 SO I WAS ABLE TO OVERCOME THOSE 109 00:04:19,766 --> 00:04:22,800 BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT AN 110 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,000 APPOINTMENT TO THE HIGHEST COURT 111 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,666 IN OUR LAND FOR A LIFETIME 112 00:04:27,666 --> 00:04:33,200 TENURE WAS BIGGER THAN ONE 113 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,100 INDIVIDUAL'’’S FEARS AND THAT IF 114 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:39,666 WE DID NOT CONFRONT -- IF I DID 115 00:04:39,666 --> 00:04:43,900 NOT TESTIFY TO WHAT I KNEW ABOUT 116 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:44,666 HIS BEHAVIOR, THAT THE COMMITTEE 117 00:04:44,666 --> 00:04:47,266 WOULD NOT HAVE COMPLETE 118 00:04:47,266 --> 00:04:47,933 INFORMATION TO EVALUATE THE 119 00:04:47,933 --> 00:04:51,066 CHARACTER AND FITNESS OF 120 00:04:51,066 --> 00:04:51,800 CLARENCE THOMAS FOR THE POSITION 121 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:52,233 ON THE COURT. 122 00:04:52,233 --> 00:04:54,366 BONNIE: AND YET, HE WAS 123 00:04:54,366 --> 00:04:59,233 CONFIRMED REGARDLESS BY A 124 00:04:59,233 --> 00:05:01,500 COMMITTEE CHAIRED BY THEN 125 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:05,400 SENATOR JOE BIDEN. 126 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,266 WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU -- YOU 127 00:05:08,266 --> 00:05:09,966 KNOW, YOU HAVE AN INSIDE TRACK 128 00:05:09,966 --> 00:05:13,966 AT LEAST 30 YEARS AGO OF THE 129 00:05:13,966 --> 00:05:14,733 THOUGHTS OF NOW PRESIDENT BIDEN. 130 00:05:14,733 --> 00:05:17,166 DO YOU FEEL YOU WERE TREATED 131 00:05:17,166 --> 00:05:17,766 FAIRLY? 132 00:05:17,766 --> 00:05:20,233 MS. HILL: I THINK THE WHOLE 133 00:05:20,233 --> 00:05:21,300 PROCESS WAS REALLY FLAWED. 134 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,133 THERE WERE SOME SPECIFIC 135 00:05:24,133 --> 00:05:24,833 INSTANCES WHERE THE REPUBLICAN 136 00:05:24,833 --> 00:05:28,633 SENATORS WERE ALLOWED TO ASK 137 00:05:28,633 --> 00:05:29,766 WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO ASK OF 138 00:05:29,766 --> 00:05:32,833 ME, BUT THEY WERE LIMITED IN 139 00:05:32,833 --> 00:05:34,300 TERMS OF WHAT THEY COULD ASK OF 140 00:05:34,300 --> 00:05:34,766 CLARENCE THOMAS. 141 00:05:34,766 --> 00:05:40,666 THERE WERE FLAWS I BELIEVE WITH 142 00:05:40,666 --> 00:05:41,166 THE INVESTIGATION. 143 00:05:41,166 --> 00:05:42,200 THE INVESTIGATION WAS CONTROLLED 144 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,666 BY A BODY, THE FBI, THAT WAS 145 00:05:45,666 --> 00:05:47,033 REALLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE 146 00:05:47,033 --> 00:05:47,566 PRESIDENT. 147 00:05:47,566 --> 00:05:50,766 WE LEARNED THAT AGAIN IN 2018 148 00:05:50,766 --> 00:05:55,366 WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP LIMITED THE 149 00:05:55,366 --> 00:05:55,966 INVESTIGATION INTO JUDGE 150 00:05:55,966 --> 00:05:58,900 KAVANAUGH DURING HIS 151 00:05:58,900 --> 00:05:59,466 CONFIRMATION HEARING. 152 00:05:59,466 --> 00:06:03,400 BUT THE THING THAT I THINK 153 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:04,100 BOTHERS ME THE MOST ABOUT THE 154 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:04,833 WAY THE PROCESS WAS HANDLED WAS 155 00:06:04,833 --> 00:06:09,400 THAT THERE WERE THREE 156 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,133 CORROBORATING WITNESSES AND EVEN 157 00:06:10,133 --> 00:06:14,233 A FOURTH WHO HAD THEIR OWN 158 00:06:14,233 --> 00:06:14,833 EXPERIENCES OF HARASSING 159 00:06:14,833 --> 00:06:15,700 BEHAVIOR AND INAPPROPRIATE 160 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:21,866 BEHAVIOR THAT THOMAS HAD DONE 161 00:06:21,866 --> 00:06:25,100 WITH THEM, AND THEY WERE NOT 162 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:27,033 CALLED. 163 00:06:27,033 --> 00:06:27,766 THEY WERE NOT CALLED TO TESTIFY 164 00:06:27,766 --> 00:06:28,133 PUBLICLY. 165 00:06:28,133 --> 00:06:31,733 INSTEAD, THEIR TESTIMONY WAS PUT 166 00:06:31,733 --> 00:06:37,200 IN THE RECORD IN WRITTEN FORM, 167 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,666 AND WE HAVE NOT ACTUALLY IN A 168 00:06:39,666 --> 00:06:40,400 PUBLIC WAY HEARD FROM THEM SINCE 169 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:40,700 THEN. 170 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:43,833 I'’’M NOT SURE THEY WANT TO BOTHER 171 00:06:43,833 --> 00:06:45,366 TO TESTIFY, BUT I THINK THERE 172 00:06:45,366 --> 00:06:48,233 WAS JUST A TRAVESTY NOT TO CALL 173 00:06:48,233 --> 00:06:52,866 THOSE WITNESSES BECAUSE THESE 174 00:06:52,866 --> 00:06:56,433 WERE WOMEN I DID NOT KNOW. 175 00:06:56,433 --> 00:06:58,066 THEY WERE NOT SAYING WHAT HAD 176 00:06:58,066 --> 00:07:00,166 HAPPENED TO ME. 177 00:07:00,166 --> 00:07:02,600 THEY WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT 178 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:02,900 THAT. 179 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:03,766 THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THEIR 180 00:07:03,766 --> 00:07:06,400 OWN EXPERIENCES OF HAVING BEEN 181 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,266 HARASSED BY CLARENCE THOMAS. 182 00:07:08,266 --> 00:07:11,000 BONNIE: NUMBERS CERTAINLY HELPS 183 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:11,833 A LOT IN TERMS OF BELIEVABILITY, 184 00:07:11,833 --> 00:07:12,266 CORRECT? 185 00:07:12,266 --> 00:07:17,366 MS. HILL: UNFORTUNATELY, WE 186 00:07:17,366 --> 00:07:21,033 STILL -- SO OFTEN, WOMEN ARE 187 00:07:21,033 --> 00:07:23,566 COMING UP AGAINST VERY POWERFUL 188 00:07:23,566 --> 00:07:25,366 MEN, AND IT STILL TAKES MULTIPLE 189 00:07:25,366 --> 00:07:27,700 WITNESSES, MULTIPLE VICTIMS TO 190 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:28,366 COME FORWARD IN ORDER TO 191 00:07:28,366 --> 00:07:31,600 CONVINCE A BODY OR EVEN THE 192 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:32,833 PUBLIC THAT SOMEONE HAS ENGAGED 193 00:07:32,833 --> 00:07:37,866 IN VIOLENCE OR OTHER MISCONDUCT, 194 00:07:37,866 --> 00:07:42,500 SO IT DOES MATTER. 195 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:45,666 IT ESPECIALLY DID MATTER IN 1991 196 00:07:45,666 --> 00:07:47,000 WHEN THE TOPIC IN TERMS OF THE 197 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,933 PUBLIC CONVERSATION WAS VERY, 198 00:07:49,933 --> 00:07:51,666 VERY NEW, AND PEOPLE NEEDED TO 199 00:07:51,666 --> 00:07:54,600 HAVE ALL OF THE INFORMATION, 200 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,266 INCLUDING INFORMATION FROM 201 00:07:57,266 --> 00:07:58,533 EXPERT WITNESSES ON THE TOPIC OF 202 00:07:58,533 --> 00:08:00,300 SEXUAL HARASSMENT WHO WERE NOT 203 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:02,966 CALLED. 204 00:08:02,966 --> 00:08:04,266 BONNIE: WHEN YOU DEAL -- WHEN 205 00:08:04,266 --> 00:08:06,466 YOU DID DECIDE TO COME FORWARD 206 00:08:06,466 --> 00:08:07,766 30 YEARS AGO, DID YOU EVER IN 207 00:08:07,766 --> 00:08:10,233 YOUR MIND THINK YOU WOULD BECOME 208 00:08:10,233 --> 00:08:12,266 THE FEMINIST ICON YOU HAVE 209 00:08:12,266 --> 00:08:12,600 BECOME? 210 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,766 MS. HILL: NO, I DIDN'’’T. 211 00:08:16,766 --> 00:08:17,500 THERE WERE MIXED FEELINGS AT THE 212 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,700 TIME ABOUT MY TESTIMONY, IF I 213 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:23,600 SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT COME 214 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:24,933 FORWARD, IF I HAD ACTUALLY 215 00:08:24,933 --> 00:08:25,666 HELPED OR HURT THE CAUSE OF 216 00:08:25,666 --> 00:08:27,700 GENDER EQUITY. 217 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:33,033 SO I DID NOT EXPECT THAT, BUT MY 218 00:08:33,033 --> 00:08:35,400 EVOLUTION TO THIS POINT HAS COME 219 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,033 AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF HEARING 220 00:08:37,033 --> 00:08:42,766 FROM VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS WHO 221 00:08:42,766 --> 00:08:43,700 WANT A VOICE, WHO WANT 222 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:45,000 SOLUTIONS, WHO WANT WHAT HAS 223 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,333 HAPPENED TO THEM -- AGAIN, 224 00:08:50,333 --> 00:08:51,033 WHATEVER THE BEHAVIOR -- THEY 225 00:08:51,033 --> 00:08:54,066 WANT IT TO STOP, AND THEY DON'’’T 226 00:08:54,066 --> 00:08:56,233 WANT IT TO HAPPEN TO OTHER 227 00:08:56,233 --> 00:08:57,666 PEOPLE, AND UNFORTUNATELY, THEY 228 00:08:57,666 --> 00:09:00,300 HAVE NOT BEEN HEARD ENOUGH FROM. 229 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:01,233 THEY HAVE NOT BEEN MADE PART OF 230 00:09:01,233 --> 00:09:06,066 THE SOLUTION IN WAYS THAT WILL 231 00:09:06,066 --> 00:09:12,033 HELP AND -- HELP AND -- HELP END 232 00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:12,733 THE PROBLEM. 233 00:09:12,733 --> 00:09:14,800 I'’’M HERE NOT TO SPEAK FOR THEM 234 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,266 BUT TO GIVE THEM SPACE TO SPEAK 235 00:09:16,266 --> 00:09:18,033 AND TO CHALLENGE OUR LEADERSHIP 236 00:09:18,033 --> 00:09:20,600 TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE 237 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,400 WILLING TO STEP UP AND MAKE 238 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:21,733 CHANGE. 239 00:09:21,733 --> 00:09:32,266 BONNIE: YOU ARE A PROFESSOR, AS 240 00:09:32,266 --> 00:09:36,266 WE TALKED ABOUT, WOMEN'’’S RIGHTS, 241 00:09:36,266 --> 00:09:38,233 STUDIES OF GENDER VIOLENCE. 242 00:09:38,233 --> 00:09:39,933 HOW DO YOU PUT WHAT HAPPENED TO 243 00:09:39,933 --> 00:09:41,733 YOU, WHAT CLARENCE THOMAS DID TO 244 00:09:41,733 --> 00:09:43,300 YOU, WHICH INCLUDED TALKING 245 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:46,800 ABOUT PUBIC HAIR ON A COKE 246 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,166 BOTTLE, REFERENCING HIS PRIVATE 247 00:09:48,166 --> 00:09:51,666 MAIL PARTS, AND PORNOGRAPHY, 248 00:09:51,666 --> 00:09:57,666 WHICH THAT PART MANY PEOPLE HAVE 249 00:09:57,666 --> 00:10:00,100 COME OUT AND CONFIRMED -- WHAT 250 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:03,466 DO YOU THINK ABOUT LUMPING THAT 251 00:10:03,466 --> 00:10:06,400 BEHAVIOR IN WITH RAPE, SEXUAL 252 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,333 ASSAULT, WHAT, FOR EXAMPLE, 253 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:14,400 CHRISTINE BLASE FORD SUFFERED AT 254 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,400 THE HANDS OF THEN JUDGE 255 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:15,766 KAVANAUGH? 256 00:10:15,766 --> 00:10:21,333 HOW DOES JUST SAYING THINGS TO 257 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:22,033 YOU, CONFRONTING YOU, FRONTING 258 00:10:22,033 --> 00:10:26,066 YOU, POSSIBLY GIVING THE WOMAN 259 00:10:26,066 --> 00:10:27,633 AT THE OTHER END OF THESE 260 00:10:27,633 --> 00:10:35,666 CONVERSATIONS A PTSD KIND OF 261 00:10:35,666 --> 00:10:36,700 EXPERIENCE BUT NOT TOUCHING YOU? 262 00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:41,500 HOW DO YOU LUMP THAT IN WITH 263 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:43,400 ACTUAL HANDS-ON SEXUAL VIOLENCE? 264 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,800 MS. HILL: WELL, SEXUAL 265 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,700 HARASSMENT IS DEFINED BY THE 266 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:48,966 LAW. 267 00:10:48,966 --> 00:10:50,966 IT DOES NOT NEED TO INCLUDE 268 00:10:50,966 --> 00:10:51,333 TOUCHING. 269 00:10:51,333 --> 00:10:56,166 AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT HAS BEEN 270 00:10:56,166 --> 00:10:57,900 CLEAR FOR YEARS THAT CREATING A 271 00:10:57,900 --> 00:10:58,500 PSYCHOLOGICALLY HOSTILE 272 00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:03,666 ENVIRONMENT IS ENOUGH TO CREATE 273 00:11:03,666 --> 00:11:04,566 A CAUSE OF ACTION. 274 00:11:04,566 --> 00:11:06,866 THAT IS ONE THING. 275 00:11:06,866 --> 00:11:09,666 THAT WAS ONE OF I THINK THE 276 00:11:09,666 --> 00:11:12,500 MISUNDERSTANDINGS PEOPLE HAD IN 277 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:14,466 1991, THAT THERE HAD TO BE SOME 278 00:11:14,466 --> 00:11:16,566 KIND OF PHYSICAL TOUCHING IN 279 00:11:16,566 --> 00:11:17,733 ORDER FOR IT TO BE SEXUAL 280 00:11:17,733 --> 00:11:20,166 MISCONDUCT ANY KIND. 281 00:11:20,166 --> 00:11:21,433 SECONDLY, OF THE WORLD, 282 00:11:21,433 --> 00:11:22,266 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, AND EVEN 283 00:11:22,266 --> 00:11:26,933 THE UNITED NATIONS HAS BEEN 284 00:11:26,933 --> 00:11:28,966 LOOKING AT WHAT COUNTS AS GENDER 285 00:11:28,966 --> 00:11:31,566 VIOLENCE, AND I HAVE INCLUDED 286 00:11:31,566 --> 00:11:33,566 NOT ONLY PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, BUT 287 00:11:33,566 --> 00:11:34,133 ECONOMIC VIOLENCE AND 288 00:11:34,133 --> 00:11:36,833 PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOTIONAL 289 00:11:36,833 --> 00:11:37,200 VIOLENCE. 290 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,633 WHEN THAT HAPPENS IN THE 291 00:11:39,633 --> 00:11:40,266 WORKPLACE, WHEN SOMEONE IS 292 00:11:40,266 --> 00:11:42,433 CONSTANTLY DISCUSSING 293 00:11:42,433 --> 00:11:43,766 PORNOGRAPHY OR THEIR OWN SEXUAL 294 00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:48,233 INTERESTS AND COUPLING THAT WITH 295 00:11:48,233 --> 00:11:54,066 PRESSING FOR DATES OR A SEXUAL 296 00:11:54,066 --> 00:11:56,166 OR ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP IS 297 00:11:56,166 --> 00:11:57,633 ENOUGH TO CONSTITUTE SEXUAL 298 00:11:57,633 --> 00:11:58,033 HARASSMENT. 299 00:11:58,033 --> 00:12:02,000 BONNIE: WHAT WERE YOU THINKING 300 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,200 AS YOU FOLLOWED THE CHRISTINE 301 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,533 BLASEY FORD TESTIMONY IN THE 302 00:12:08,533 --> 00:12:09,666 SENATE, ABOUT HAVING BEEN 303 00:12:09,666 --> 00:12:10,900 ESSENTIALLY BEEN SEXUALLY 304 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:16,433 ASSAULTED, RAPED BY A YOUNGER, 305 00:12:16,433 --> 00:12:20,233 DRUNK COLLEGE STUDENT BRETT 306 00:12:20,233 --> 00:12:20,600 KAVANAUGH? 307 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,700 MS. HILL: I ABSOLUTELY THOUGHT 308 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:23,766 THAT THE DECK WAS STACKED 309 00:12:23,766 --> 00:12:26,066 AGAINST HER FROM THE BEGINNING. 310 00:12:26,066 --> 00:12:26,800 SHE HAD NO PLACE THAT SHE KNEW 311 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,100 OF HOW TO REPORT THE BEHAVIOR 312 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:32,500 DURING THE TIME LEADING UP TO 313 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:33,133 THE CONFIRMATION HEARING. 314 00:12:33,133 --> 00:12:38,233 SHE WAS BLAMED IN FACT FOR GOING 315 00:12:38,233 --> 00:12:39,633 TO SENATOR FEINSTEIN ABOUT THAT. 316 00:12:39,633 --> 00:12:43,166 THAT WAS USED AGAINST HER, EVEN 317 00:12:43,166 --> 00:12:44,733 THOUGH THE SENATE HAD NO 318 00:12:44,733 --> 00:12:45,466 PROCESS, AND I KEEP COMING BACK 319 00:12:45,466 --> 00:12:48,600 TO THE PROCESS, AND IT IS 320 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,633 IMPORTANT, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF 321 00:12:51,633 --> 00:12:54,166 HOW IT FAILED ME OR NOT JUST 322 00:12:54,166 --> 00:12:55,900 BECAUSE OF HOW IT FAILED 323 00:12:55,900 --> 00:13:00,633 CHRISTINE BLASEY FORWARD, BUT 324 00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:03,000 BECAUSE IT IS A REFLECTION ON 325 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,200 OUR GOVERNMENT'’’S ABILITY TO 326 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,366 ADDRESS THIS POLICY IN A FAIR 327 00:13:07,366 --> 00:13:07,633 WAY. 328 00:13:07,633 --> 00:13:08,633 WHEN YOU HAVE COMPLAINTS COME 329 00:13:08,633 --> 00:13:10,200 FORWARD, THERE IS STILL NO 330 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,233 PROCESS AS FAR AS I KNOW IN THE 331 00:13:12,233 --> 00:13:14,933 SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE FOR 332 00:13:14,933 --> 00:13:15,666 PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD. 333 00:13:15,666 --> 00:13:18,866 EVEN MORE SO, IT IS ALSO A 334 00:13:18,866 --> 00:13:20,233 REFLECTION OF SOME OF THE MANY 335 00:13:20,233 --> 00:13:21,600 FLAWED PROCESSES THAT 336 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:22,266 INDIVIDUALS THROUGHOUT THE 337 00:13:22,266 --> 00:13:22,900 COUNTRY HAVE TO DEAL WITH. 338 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:27,933 BONNIE: SO LET'’’S TALK ABOUT THAT 339 00:13:27,933 --> 00:13:28,266 PROCESS. 340 00:13:28,266 --> 00:13:33,333 WHAT SHOULD IT BE, AND WHAT 341 00:13:33,333 --> 00:13:34,066 SHOULD IT BE FOR A WOMAN WHO IS 342 00:13:34,066 --> 00:13:36,266 NOT GOING BEFORE THE SENATE 343 00:13:36,266 --> 00:13:39,666 JUDICIARY COMMITTEE ON A SUPREME 344 00:13:39,666 --> 00:13:42,333 COURT NOMINEE, BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, 345 00:13:42,333 --> 00:13:50,600 THEY $2.14 AN HOUR WOMAN WHO 346 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:51,200 WAITS TABLES IN A BAR IN 347 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,633 LOUISIANA -- WHAT SHOULD BE THE 348 00:13:53,633 --> 00:13:57,633 PROCESS FOR EVERYONE FROM THAT 349 00:13:57,633 --> 00:14:00,566 WOMAN UP TO YOUR SITUATION? 350 00:14:00,566 --> 00:14:02,266 MS. HILL: IN THE BEGINNING, 351 00:14:02,266 --> 00:14:03,700 THERE SHOULD BE A PROCESS. 352 00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:09,466 YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED THE 353 00:14:09,466 --> 00:14:11,133 NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT 354 00:14:11,133 --> 00:14:13,533 COVERED BY ANY PROCESSES AT ALL. 355 00:14:13,533 --> 00:14:15,700 MAYBE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT 356 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,133 COVERED BY THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT 357 00:14:18,133 --> 00:14:19,733 BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES 358 00:14:19,733 --> 00:14:21,666 ARE LESS THAN WHAT THE ACT 359 00:14:21,666 --> 00:14:22,000 COVERS. 360 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,100 THEY COULD BE GIG WORKERS. 361 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,766 THEY COULD BE INDIVIDUALS WHO 362 00:14:28,766 --> 00:14:29,900 ARE CONTRACTORS WHO ARE NOT 363 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:30,400 EMPLOYEES AT ALL. 364 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,133 THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THERE ARE 365 00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:33,933 NO PROCESSES AT ALL, BUT IN THE 366 00:14:33,933 --> 00:14:36,866 EVENT THAT THERE IS A PROCESS, 367 00:14:36,866 --> 00:14:38,233 ONE OF THE THINGS THAT NEEDS TO 368 00:14:38,233 --> 00:14:40,200 HAPPEN IS THAT THE PROCESS HAS 369 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:40,600 TO BE CLEAR. 370 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,200 IT HAS TO BE MADE EVIDENT TO THE 371 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,433 INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE WORKING IN A 372 00:14:46,433 --> 00:14:47,633 WORKFORCE, AND THERE NEEDS TO BE 373 00:14:47,633 --> 00:14:51,633 SOME TRANSPARENCY AND 374 00:14:51,633 --> 00:14:54,133 ACCESSIBILITY. 375 00:14:54,133 --> 00:14:57,333 ONE OF THE COMPLAINTS THAT I GET 376 00:14:57,333 --> 00:15:00,166 , AND I'’’VE DONE RESEARCH ON THIS 377 00:15:00,166 --> 00:15:00,900 AT THE HOLLYWOOD COMMISSION, IS 378 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:08,266 THAT THE PROCESSES ARE SO REMOTE 379 00:15:08,266 --> 00:15:09,266 , AND ONE NEVER KNOWS WHEN YOU 380 00:15:09,266 --> 00:15:12,266 ENTER THE PROCESS EXACTLY WHAT 381 00:15:12,266 --> 00:15:13,400 IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT. 382 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,733 YOU DON'’’T KNOW WHO IS GOING TO 383 00:15:16,733 --> 00:15:20,233 INVESTIGATE YOUR CLAIM, IF THERE 384 00:15:20,233 --> 00:15:21,333 WILL BE AN INVESTIGATION. 385 00:15:21,333 --> 00:15:22,666 THEY DON'’’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT 386 00:15:22,666 --> 00:15:24,600 HOW THE PROCESS IS GOING TO 387 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,666 PROCEED, AND YOU ARE LEFT WITH 388 00:15:27,666 --> 00:15:29,300 DOUBT BECAUSE -- AND THIS IS 389 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,966 ALSO SOMETHING I FOUND -- MOSTLY 390 00:15:32,966 --> 00:15:33,666 PEOPLE BELIEVE IF YOU ARE 391 00:15:33,666 --> 00:15:38,700 COMPLAINING AGAINST A POWERFUL 392 00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:39,366 INDIVIDUAL, THERE WILL BE NO 393 00:15:39,366 --> 00:15:45,166 ACCOUNTABILITY, THAT THAT $2.14 394 00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:47,000 AN HOUR RESTAURANT WORKER WILL 395 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,300 BE SEEN AS EXPENDABLE, WHEREAS 396 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:51,633 IF YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE 397 00:15:51,633 --> 00:15:54,400 TOP CHEF, THAT PERSON IS NOT 398 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:54,800 EXPENDABLE. 399 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,200 IT IS A COMBINATION OF CLARITY 400 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,266 AND FAIRNESS AND ACCESSIBILITY, 401 00:16:00,266 --> 00:16:03,833 BUT IT IS ALSO A QUESTION OF 402 00:16:03,833 --> 00:16:07,000 ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN YOU FIND 403 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,266 THERE HAS BEEN WRONGDOING. 404 00:16:08,266 --> 00:16:14,266 BONNIE: TELL ME HOW YOU THINK 405 00:16:14,266 --> 00:16:15,200 THAT PROCESS SHOULD WORK. 406 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,266 SHOULD THERE BE A CENTRAL 407 00:16:20,266 --> 00:16:20,633 LOCATION? 408 00:16:20,633 --> 00:16:21,700 WHAT SHOULD THE PATH OF 409 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:24,000 ACCOUNTABILITY BE? 410 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,033 MS. HILL: THE PATH OF 411 00:16:26,033 --> 00:16:26,733 ACCOUNTABILITY SHOULD NOT EVEN 412 00:16:26,733 --> 00:16:31,533 START WITH THE EEOC. 413 00:16:31,533 --> 00:16:33,000 THAT IS WHY I SAY IT HAS TO BE 414 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:33,300 CLEAR. 415 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:34,600 IT HAS TO BE AVAILABLE. 416 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,100 THERE HAVE TO BE PEOPLE EDUCATED 417 00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:39,700 ABOUT THE PROCESS BY THE 418 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:44,366 EMPLOYER, SO THAT IS THE FIRST 419 00:16:44,366 --> 00:16:46,700 THING, AND THERE HAS TO BE SOME 420 00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:48,000 ASSURANCE BASED ON BEHAVIOR THAT 421 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,300 THERE WILL BE ACCOUNTABILITY IF 422 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:55,300 YOU ACCESS THAT PROCESS. 423 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:56,200 THAT INCLUDES THINGS LIKE MAKING 424 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,700 SURE THAT THERE IS A FULL 425 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,266 INVESTIGATION THAT IS NOT 426 00:17:00,266 --> 00:17:01,366 LIMITING, THAT THE INVESTIGATION 427 00:17:01,366 --> 00:17:08,266 INCLUDES CONTEXT OF THE 428 00:17:08,266 --> 00:17:12,266 BEHAVIOR, THAT IT IS WELL 429 00:17:12,266 --> 00:17:15,700 STATED, MADE PUBLIC, NOT BEHIND 430 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:19,933 SOME SCREEN THAT PEOPLE CANNOT 431 00:17:19,933 --> 00:17:21,033 ACCESS, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE 432 00:17:21,033 --> 00:17:22,833 NOT SITTING IN FRONT OF A 433 00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:23,533 COMPUTER ALL THE TIME IN YOUR 434 00:17:23,533 --> 00:17:24,700 JOB BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO 435 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:34,166 ARE SITTING AT A DESK. 436 00:17:34,166 --> 00:17:39,666 THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF WAYS. 437 00:17:39,666 --> 00:17:40,366 TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT A PROCESS 438 00:17:40,366 --> 00:17:43,400 SHOULD BE WILL DEPEND ON THE 439 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,266 CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE WORK THAT 440 00:17:44,266 --> 00:17:44,700 PEOPLE ARE IN. 441 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:50,000 BONNIE: WHAT IS THE APPEAL IF 442 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,266 YOU GO TO YOUR EMPLOYER AND YOU 443 00:17:52,266 --> 00:17:54,900 ARE BLOWN OFF -- YOU KNOW, IT 444 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,900 GOES THROUGH SOME SHAM PROCESS, 445 00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,233 AND IT GOES NOWHERE? 446 00:18:00,233 --> 00:18:03,433 DO YOU GO TO THE POLICE, TO THE 447 00:18:03,433 --> 00:18:03,733 FBI? 448 00:18:03,733 --> 00:18:07,566 WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP? 449 00:18:07,566 --> 00:18:08,933 MS. HILL: THE NEXT STEP -- YOU 450 00:18:08,933 --> 00:18:10,966 ARE TALKING ABOUT WORKPLACE 451 00:18:10,966 --> 00:18:11,600 HARASSMENT, IT CAN VARY. 452 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,566 IF THERE IS A SEXUAL HARASSMENT 453 00:18:14,566 --> 00:18:16,733 LAW, YOU CAN GO TO POLICE. 454 00:18:16,733 --> 00:18:19,100 YOU CAN GO TO THE POLICE FROM 455 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:19,833 THE BEGINNING. 456 00:18:19,833 --> 00:18:21,600 IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A 457 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,966 SEXUAL HARASSMENT COMPLAINT, YOU 458 00:18:22,966 --> 00:18:24,366 CAN GO TO YOUR STATE AGENCY, 459 00:18:24,366 --> 00:18:27,666 YOUR HUMAN RIGHTS AGENCY, AND 460 00:18:27,666 --> 00:18:28,400 THEY USUALLY ARE IN PARTNERSHIP 461 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,666 WITH THE EEOC OR YOU CAN GO 462 00:18:32,666 --> 00:18:34,033 DIRECTLY TO THE EEOC IF THAT 463 00:18:34,033 --> 00:18:35,600 DOES NOT EXIST. 464 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,966 ONCE AGAIN, WHAT YOU HAVE TO 465 00:18:38,966 --> 00:18:40,233 HAVE IN THAT PROCESS IS, REALLY, 466 00:18:40,233 --> 00:18:41,100 AN AGENCY THAT RIGOROUSLY 467 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:51,633 ENFORCES AND PRIORITIZES WHAT IS 468 00:18:51,633 --> 00:18:54,633 CLAIMED AS A CIVIL RIGHTS 469 00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:55,000 VIOLATION. 470 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:55,666 BONNIE: SO THESE LOCALITIES 471 00:18:55,666 --> 00:18:56,900 ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IF IT IS AN 472 00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:00,800 ISSUE OF COUNTY LAW OR STATE LAW 473 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,700 -- THAT IS STILL AN AWFUL LOT OF 474 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:03,333 LAWS THAT WOULD NEED TO BE 475 00:19:03,333 --> 00:19:09,800 PASSED TO GET THIS PROCESS 476 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,166 AVAILABLE IN EVERY LOCATION IN 477 00:19:11,166 --> 00:19:12,300 THE U.S., CORRECT? 478 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:20,033 >> WELL, THE WAY THE EEOC WORKS 479 00:19:20,033 --> 00:19:21,366 IN THE WAY IT WORKS FOR CERTAIN 480 00:19:21,366 --> 00:19:25,766 EMPLOYMENT ARRANGEMENTS, IF THE 481 00:19:25,766 --> 00:19:27,300 NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES IS HIGH 482 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,600 ENOUGH, THE EEOC WOULD FUNCTION 483 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,800 AS THE AGENCY TO GO TO. 484 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:38,566 THERE MAY BE SUPPLEMENTAL LAWS 485 00:19:38,566 --> 00:19:40,833 WITH STATES, BUT THE EEOC IS THE 486 00:19:40,833 --> 00:19:43,466 GO TO ORGANIZATION FROM THE 487 00:19:43,466 --> 00:19:45,266 MAJORITY OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE 488 00:19:45,266 --> 00:19:48,966 EMPLOYEES IN THIS COUNTRY, SO IF 489 00:19:48,966 --> 00:19:50,466 THERE ARE OTHER WORKERS, OTHER 490 00:19:50,466 --> 00:19:52,866 TYPE OF WORKERS, CONTRACTORS, 491 00:19:52,866 --> 00:19:55,900 FOR EXAMPLE, OR THE GIG WORKERS, 492 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:57,866 THAN THERE ARE LAWS THAT MIGHT 493 00:19:57,866 --> 00:19:58,266 COVER THEM. 494 00:19:58,266 --> 00:19:59,900 THERE MIGHT BE STATE LAWS. 495 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,200 THERE MIGHT BE CITIES, LOCAL 496 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,233 LAWS THAT MIGHT COVER THEIR 497 00:20:08,233 --> 00:20:08,600 SITUATION. 498 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:14,533 WHAT I'’’M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT 499 00:20:14,533 --> 00:20:15,233 THE PROBLEM IS BIG ENOUGH THAT 500 00:20:15,233 --> 00:20:18,566 WE SHOULD NOT BE CONCERNED 501 00:20:18,566 --> 00:20:20,066 ASKING IF THERE WILL BE TOO MANY 502 00:20:20,066 --> 00:20:20,600 LAWS TO COVER THAT. 503 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,400 THE PROBLEM IS BIG ENOUGH THAT 504 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,200 WE SHOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT 505 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,966 THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST, 506 00:20:26,966 --> 00:20:27,700 WHATEVER IT TAKES, AND THAT 507 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:28,333 SHOULD PROBABLY ULTIMATELY 508 00:20:28,333 --> 00:20:34,100 INVOLVE COORDINATION BETWEEN 509 00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:35,500 STATE AND LOCAL ENTITIES AND THE 510 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:38,400 FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT WE ARE 511 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:38,866 NOT THERE YET. 512 00:20:38,866 --> 00:20:41,866 WE HAVE NOT PUT THE SYSTEM 513 00:20:41,866 --> 00:20:42,233 TOGETHER. 514 00:20:42,233 --> 00:20:43,833 WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT 515 00:20:43,833 --> 00:20:44,366 INDIVIDUAL POLICIES. 516 00:20:44,366 --> 00:20:47,933 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMS 517 00:20:47,933 --> 00:20:49,766 THAT NEED TO BE IN PLACE TO 518 00:20:49,766 --> 00:20:52,166 ADDRESS JUST THE PROBLEM OF 519 00:20:52,166 --> 00:20:53,600 HARASSMENT IN THE WORKPLACE, AND 520 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,166 YOU HAVE NOT EVEN GOTTEN INTO 521 00:20:56,166 --> 00:20:58,300 THE PROBLEM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT 522 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,166 AND THE LOW RATE OF CONVICTIONS, 523 00:21:01,166 --> 00:21:01,800 NOT ONLY LOW RATE OF 524 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,233 CONVICTIONS, BUT EVEN IN SEXUAL 525 00:21:04,233 --> 00:21:07,500 ASSAULT IS -- EVEN WHEN SEXUAL 526 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,700 ASSAULT OR RAPE IS REPORTED TO 527 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,033 POLICE, THERE IS A LOW RATE OF 528 00:21:12,033 --> 00:21:12,633 INVESTIGATIONS. 529 00:21:12,633 --> 00:21:14,466 THERE IS A LOW RATE OF REFERRAL, 530 00:21:14,466 --> 00:21:17,733 OF COMPLAINTS TO THE DISTRICT 531 00:21:17,733 --> 00:21:18,100 ATTORNEY. 532 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:21,900 THEN THERE IS AN EVEN LOWER RATE 533 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:22,633 OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY 534 00:21:22,633 --> 00:21:24,233 ACCEPTING THE CASE AND PUTTING 535 00:21:24,233 --> 00:21:26,933 THE CASE BEFORE A JURY. 536 00:21:26,933 --> 00:21:28,200 THERE ARE SOMETIMES JUDGES THAT 537 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,566 INTERVENE EVEN AFTER A JURY 538 00:21:30,566 --> 00:21:33,366 DECISION HAS BEEN RAISED, AS 539 00:21:33,366 --> 00:21:36,766 RECENTLY HAPPENED IN THE BILL 540 00:21:36,766 --> 00:21:37,900 COSBY CASE. 541 00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:38,633 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COMPLEX 542 00:21:38,633 --> 00:21:42,266 SYSTEM, AND IT IS NOT GOING TO 543 00:21:42,266 --> 00:21:42,600 BE EASY. 544 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,800 THE PROBLEM IS COMPLEX, BUT WE 545 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,233 HAVE TO START. 546 00:21:46,233 --> 00:21:49,300 WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE 547 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:51,100 URGENCY IS TO STOP THIS BEHAVIOR 548 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:52,200 BECAUSE IT IS NOT ONLY HARMING 549 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,200 INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE DIRECT 550 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:56,533 VICTIMS. 551 00:21:56,533 --> 00:21:58,666 IT IS HARMING FAMILIES. 552 00:21:58,666 --> 00:21:59,300 IT IS HARMING COMMUNITIES. 553 00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:04,833 IT IS HARMING, REALLY, OUR 554 00:22:04,833 --> 00:22:06,800 ENTIRE NATION, BUT SPECIFICALLY 555 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,100 OUR INSTITUTIONS WHERE THIS 556 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:10,666 BEHAVIOR IS HAPPENING. 557 00:22:10,666 --> 00:22:12,933 BONNIE: DO YOU THINK BUT FOR 558 00:22:12,933 --> 00:22:15,066 ANITA HILL, THE ME TO MOVEMENT 559 00:22:15,066 --> 00:22:15,666 WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED? 560 00:22:15,666 --> 00:22:20,500 MS. HILL: I THINK THE HEARINGS 561 00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:25,100 IN 1991 AND MY TESTIMONY WAS ONE 562 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:25,466 CATALYST. 563 00:22:25,466 --> 00:22:26,300 I THINK THERE WAS A MOMENTUM 564 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:31,800 THAT BEGAN TO BUILD IN 1991 FROM 565 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,766 FEMINISTS, FROM ORGANIZERS WHO 566 00:22:34,766 --> 00:22:35,733 PUT TOGETHER ADVOCACY EFFORTS, 567 00:22:35,733 --> 00:22:40,066 FROM STUDENTS WHO IN COLLEGES 568 00:22:40,066 --> 00:22:42,400 AND UNIVERSITIES HAD BEEN HOPING 569 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,333 FOR SAFER ENVIRONMENTS. 570 00:22:43,333 --> 00:22:48,600 I THINK IT CAME ABOUT BECAUSE OF 571 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,100 RESEARCHERS LIKE A WOMAN NAMED 572 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,633 LOUISE FITZGERALD, WHO STUDIED 573 00:22:52,633 --> 00:22:54,533 THE TOPIC WELL BEFORE ANYONE WAS 574 00:22:54,533 --> 00:22:55,833 TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE PUBLIC 575 00:22:55,833 --> 00:22:57,500 SPHERE, AND IT BUILT. 576 00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,300 IT WAS SOMETHING THAT BUILT OVER 577 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:00,666 THE YEARS. 578 00:23:00,666 --> 00:23:04,500 SOCIAL MEDIA ALLOWED IT TO ERECT 579 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:06,933 IN A WAY THAT I DON'’’T THINK 580 00:23:06,933 --> 00:23:08,800 ANYONE OF US EXPECTED, BUT WE'’’VE 581 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,366 GOT TO TAKE ALL OF THAT ENERGY 582 00:23:10,366 --> 00:23:13,233 AND COME TOGETHER WITH SOLUTIONS 583 00:23:13,233 --> 00:23:15,500 . 584 00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:18,133 WHAT THOSE SOLUTIONS ARE IS NOT 585 00:23:18,133 --> 00:23:18,433 CLEAR. 586 00:23:18,433 --> 00:23:22,800 BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS 587 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,433 TO HAPPEN IS THAT SURVIVORS AND 588 00:23:26,433 --> 00:23:29,200 VICTIMS HAVE TO BE PART OF 589 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,100 MAKING THEM, AND OUR LEADERSHIP 590 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:32,200 HAS TO FOLLOW. 591 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,766 BONNIE: LASTLY, DO YOU THINK THE 592 00:23:35,766 --> 00:23:39,000 #METOO MOVEMENT, AS LARGE AS IT 593 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,233 WAS, AS MUCH PUBLICITY AS IT HAS 594 00:23:40,233 --> 00:23:42,166 GOTTEN -- DO YOU THINK IT HAS 595 00:23:42,166 --> 00:23:45,600 HAD LASTING EFFECT, EVEN JUST IN 596 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:46,300 HOLLYWOOD? 597 00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:47,300 I HAVE BEEN TOLD THE CASTING 598 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,333 COUCH MENTALITY HAS NOT GONE 599 00:23:50,333 --> 00:23:50,633 AWAY. 600 00:23:50,633 --> 00:23:54,700 MS. HILL: OH, THAT HAS NOT GONE 601 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:55,166 AWAY COMPLETELY. 602 00:23:55,166 --> 00:23:57,366 THAT IS A CULTURAL ASPECT WE ARE 603 00:23:57,366 --> 00:23:59,233 WORKING TO ATTEMPT TO REVERSE, 604 00:23:59,233 --> 00:24:03,500 AND THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE COMING 605 00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:04,233 INTO THE HOLLYWOOD COMMUNITY WHO 606 00:24:04,233 --> 00:24:06,300 ARE RESISTING THAT, BUT HISTORY 607 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:10,166 IS HARD TO UNDO, AND THAT PART 608 00:24:10,166 --> 00:24:10,933 OF THE CULTURE IS NOT GOING TO 609 00:24:10,933 --> 00:24:16,266 GO AWAY OVERNIGHT OR IN THE SPAN 610 00:24:16,266 --> 00:24:20,233 OF THREE OR FOUR YEARS, BUT THAT 611 00:24:20,233 --> 00:24:23,966 IS NOT TO EXCUSE ANY OF US FROM 612 00:24:23,966 --> 00:24:25,133 ACTING NOW AND DOING WHATEVER WE 613 00:24:25,133 --> 00:24:27,233 CAN IN OUR POWER TO MAKE SURE 614 00:24:27,233 --> 00:24:33,000 THAT IT DOES BECOME HISTORY, A 615 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,600 DEAD HISTORY, NOT AN ONGOING 616 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:34,933 LEGACY. 617 00:24:34,933 --> 00:24:39,733 BONNIE: PROFESSOR ANITA HILL, 618 00:24:39,733 --> 00:24:40,933 THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON 619 00:24:40,933 --> 00:24:42,900 AND TALKING TO US ABOUT YOUR NEW 620 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:44,033 BOOK, "BELIEVING." 621 00:24:44,033 --> 00:24:48,366 BEST OF LUCK TO YOU WITH THAT. 622 00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:52,200 THAT IS IT FOR "TO THE 623 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:52,566 CONTRARY." 624 00:24:52,566 --> 00:24:53,266 PLEASE, LET'’’S CONTINUE THE 625 00:24:53,266 --> 00:24:55,933 CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK, 626 00:24:55,933 --> 00:25:00,233 INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, AND OUR 627 00:25:00,233 --> 00:25:00,800 WEBSITE, WWW. PBS.ORG. 628 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:07,666 AND IF YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE 629 00:25:07,666 --> 00:25:08,366 CONTRARY, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT 630 00:25:08,366 --> 00:26:01,200 TIME. 631 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,133 FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN 632 00:26:04,133 --> 00:26:04,833 ONLINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE 633 00:26:04,833 --> 00:26:07,800 OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE 634 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,066 VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT 635 00:26:13,066 --> 00:26:13,466 PBS.ORG/TOTHE