>> SO YOU ARE A FEMINIST.

HOW DOES THAT GO OVER IN THE

MUSLIM WORLD?

>> SO I USUALLY DON'T'S START

WITH THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO

USE THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF

BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT

THAT WE OWN A WORD THAT UNITES

US.

BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE

ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN

AND THE FIRST PERSON TO ENTER

ISLAM WAS A WOMAN.

WHEN THE QURAN WAS COMPILE

WILLED, AND THE TRIBES DECIDED

WHO TO GIVE IT TO, IT WAS A

WOMAN.

[♪♪♪♪]

>> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME

TO TO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK, A CONVERSATION WITH

MANAL OMAR.

MANAL FOUNDED A NEW ORGANIZATION

CALLED ACROSS RED LINES AND WE

WILL BE TELLING YOU WHAT THAT IS

ABOUT AND IT'S EXCITING.

AND SHE IS ALSO A TRUMAN

NATIONAL SECURITY FELLOW.

AND SHE IS A THOUGHT LEADER WHEN

IT COMES TO ISSUES AT THE

INTERSECTION OF GENDER, EQUALITY

AND ISLAM.

WELCOME, MANAL AND FREQUENT TO

THE CONTRARY PANELIST AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR

HAVING ME.

>> ACROSS RED LINES WHAT IS THAT

ABOUT?

>> IT IS A COMPANY THAT I JUST

LAUNCHED THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING

WOMEN PARTICULARLY MUSLIM WOMEN

BUT WOMEN OF FAITH IN GENERAL

WITH A SAFE SPACE TO EXPLORE

SEXUALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS LENS.

>> AND NO SUCH THING EXISTS?

>> WELL THERE'S DIFFERENT

WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE

ISLAMIC WORLD AND A LOT I'VE

BEEN WORKING WITH BUT FROM MY

OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WHEN I

WENT THROUGH MY DIVORCE I HAD

QUESTIONS ABOUT MY SEXUALITY

ABOUT MY FAITH AND MY ROLE AS A

WOMAN'S ACTIVIST WHEN IT SEEMS

LIKE THEY WERE AT CONTRADICTION

AND I LOOKED FOR WORKSHOPS AND

BOOKS AND THERE WASN'T ANYTHING.

AND IT WAS ALMOST A POINT OF

DESPERATION.

I SPENT THE LAST THREE YEARS

DOING THE RE7 FOR MYSELF.

AND THAT INSPIRED ME.

WHY DON'T I SHARE IT AND IT

LAUNCHED ACROSS RED LINES.

>> I BELIEVE THE LACK OF

CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUALITY HAS

CRIPPLED OUR COMMUNITY.

>> WHEN I ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS

YOUR IDEA ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW

SOMEONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF

MARRIAGE THEY USE WORDS LIKE

COURTING, TALKING.

>> OPEN HONEST DISCUSSIONS ABOUT

SEXUALITY IS A RED LINE THAT THE

MOST POWERFUL MUSLIM WOMEN WILL

NOT CROSS.

I WANT TO CROSS IT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT, HAVE YOU BEEN

BESIEGED WITH INQUIRES FROM

WOMEN WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE?

WHAT IS THE AVERAGE ABOUT SEX

AND SEXUALITY HERE IN THE U.S.

MUSLIM WOMEN, WHAT IS THEIR

LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE?

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW IT'S VERY

HARD AS YOU KNOW TO SPEAK ABOUT

WOMEN AS A MONOLITH AND MUSLIM

WOMEN IN GENERAL AND ESPECIALLY

WHEN YOU COME TO AMERICAN MUSLIM

WOMEN BECAUSE THERE IS A DIVERSE

CULTURAL BACKGROUND AS WELL.

BUT OVERWHELMINGLY, IT'S JUST

VERY MALE DOMINATED

ININTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT COMES

TO ANYTHING INVOLVING WOMEN IN

ISLAM.

THERE'S BEEN STRONG SUCCESS IN

THE LAST 20 YEARS ON RAISING THE

RIGHTS ISSUES.

WHAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IS THE

CONVERSATION ON SEXUALITY FROM A

SEX POSITIVE LENS.

WE HAVE HAD GREAT ORGANIZATIONS

TACKLING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND

TACKLING SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE

MOSQUE WE HAVE HAD ORGANIZATIONS

STEP UP IN THE LAST DECADE IN

AMERICA.

AND IN THE WORLD.

BUT THAT SEX POSITIVE

CONVERSATION WHICH I ARGUE IS AN

ESSENTIAL PART OF ISLAM BECAUSE

ISLAM TALKS ABOUT HOW YOU

CONNECT TO THE DIVINE IN ALL

YOUR SENSES IS A MISSING GAP.

WHEN WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE

EXPLOITATION AND THE ABUSE, THEN

WE LOSE THE OTHER ANGLE ON

WOMEN'S ISSUES THE JOY AND THE

PLEASURE AND RESILIENCE.

MY HOPE IS WE CAN BUILD THAT

SIDE THROUGH THIS LENS ON

TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY.

>> WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE

ISLAMIC COMMUNITY IN AMERICA IS

MORE FORWARD THINKING THAN IN

NORTH AFRICA OR SOUTH ASIA?

>> I WOULD SAY THE OPPOSITE.

I WAS RAISED HERE.

I WAS TAUGHT ISLAM THROUGH THE

SYSTEM HERE.

AND VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE

AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND

I'M GRATEFUL FOR IT BECAUSE IT

GAVE ME AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY

BACKGROUND.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I STARTED

TRAVELING THE WORLD AND I SAW

HOW RICH AND OPEN ISLAM IS.

AND MY PERSONAL THEORY IS THAT

WE GET FROZEN IN THE TIME THAT

OUR PARENTS LEFT.

I WAS RAISED IN A 1960s

PALESTINE, WHERE IF IF YOU GO TO

PALESTINE OR WHERE PEOPLE ARE

FROM THERE IS A HUGE WIDE OF

INTERPRETATIONS A HUGE WIDE THE

WAY THE RELIGION IS PRACTICED.

HERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE ARE

FROZEN IN TIME.

>> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR

EXAMPLE THAT IN NIGERIA WHERE

BOKO HARAM IS KIDNAPPING SCHOOL

GIRLS AND GIRLS ARE NOT IN

SCHOOL ANYMORE THEIR PARENTS ARE

AFRAID TO SEND THEM HOW IS IT

POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE MORE

LIBERATED, IF YOU WILL, MORE

PROGRESSIVE THAN AMERICAN MUSLIM

WOMEN WHO ARE LAWYERS AND

DOCTORS AND UNIVERSITY

PRESIDENTS AND C.E.O.S, THAN

WHEN COMPARED WITH OTHER

COUNTRIES?

>> I WOULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN

THE INTERPRETATIONS AND THE

SCHOLARSHIP AND THE STATUS OF

WOMEN.

THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT.

WITH THE STATUS OF WOMEN JUST BY

DEFAULT OUR ACCESS TO EDUCATION

AND HEALTHCARE WE ARE ALWAYS

GOING TO BE BETTER.

I WAS LOOKING AT THE ISLAMIC

INTERPRETATION LENS AND THAT

TENDS TO BE FROZEN IN TIME.

WE DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS.

AND I THINK IN AMERICA --

>> EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN.

>> AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS IN

NIGERIA I WAS ABLE TO MEET WITH

ISLAMIC SCHOLARS FOR ACROSS RED

LINES, AND TO REALLY PUSH THEM

ON CERTAIN ISSUES THAT MAY

TROUBLE ME FROM A WOMEN'S

PERSPECTIVE.

ON THE WITNESSES OR ON WHAT ISIS

IS USING IN TERMS OF THEIR

RECRUITMENT STRATEGIES.

SO A LOT OF THE TIMES IF I HAVE

THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS HERE

WHAT I GET IS READ THE

SCHOLARSHIP THAT IS ALREADY IN

THE PAST.

WHEREAS WHAT YOU WILL FIND IN

SOME NOT IN ALL CONTEXT AND ALL

RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS BUT I HAD THE

SAME EXPERIENCE IN YEMEN IF YOU

FIND PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE

RELIGION AND THE SCRIPTURE YOU

CAN DECONSTRUCT THE LAWS.

AND THE WAY THAT SOMEONE

EXPLAINED IT TO ME WHICH WAS

BRILLIANT IS ISLAM DOESN'T

NECESSARILY NEED A REFMATION,

BECAUSE IT IS A LEGAL-BASED

SYSTEM AND THE VALUES WILL NOT

CHANGE BUT FROM THE BEGINNING

ISLAM ANTICIPATED THE LAWS TO

CHANGE.

AND THE LAWS SHOULD CHANGE WITH

PEOPLE AND THAT IS WHAT THE

SCHOLARS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE

DOING.

>> LET'S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT

HOW THAT IMPACTS THE AVERAGE

WOMAN IN THE U.S. VERSUS THE

AVERAGE WOMAN IN THE PHILIPPINES

OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN SOUTH ASIA

OR NORTH AFRICA.

MY EXPERIENCE AND I'VE BEEN TO

70 SOME ODD COUNTRIES IS THAT

WOMEN ARE WAY MORE REPRESSED IN

THEIR DAILY LIVES.

SO THAT IS WHAT I WAS GETTING

AT.

>> IN TERMS OF DAILY LIVES,

ABSOLUTELY.

I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF

THE AMMUNITION TO PUSHBACK ON

THE SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ON

SEXUALITY.

THAT AMMUNITION IS WHAT WE ARE

LACKING.

>> THE WOMEN THERE ARE TREATED

IN MANY COUNTRIES NO BETTER THAN

CHATTLE, REALLY.

>> WORSE.

>> WOMEN WERE TREATED IN

BIBLICAL TIMES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> SO WHEN YOU --

YOU ARE A FEMINIST

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHEN YOU TELL PEOPLE OR SPEAK

TO AN AUDIENCE OF MUSLIMS HERE

AND OVERSEAS, HOW DO THEY TAKE

THAT?

>> SO I USUALLY DON'T START WITH

THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO USE

THE WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF

BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY

IMPORTANT THAT WE OWN A WORD

THAT UNITES US.

BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE

ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN

AND THE FIRST PERSON TO INTER

ISLAM WAS A WOMAN THE FIRST

MARTYR WAS A WOMAN, WHEN THE

TRIBES DECIDED WHO TO GIVE IT

TO, IT WAS A WOMAN.

SO I USE THAT AS THE ENTRY POINT

WITH THE RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS

SAYING WITH THE POINT OF PRIDE

OF HOW REVOLUTIONARY ISLAM WAS

TO WOMEN.

AND USUALLY THEY GET EXCITED AND

SHARE THEIR OWN STORIES AND I

ASK THEM WHEN DID WE LOSE IT?

BECAUSE WE LOST IT?

AND THAT CAN OPEN UP THE

CONVERSATION AROUND FEMINISM AND

SEXUALITY AND THIS ARGUMENT OF

SAYING ISLAM WAS THE ORIGINAL

MOVEMENT FOR A LOT OF THESE

COMMUNITIES AND IT GOT LOST HOW

DO WE RECLAIM IT.

AND IT TAKES AWAY THE DEFENSIVE

POSTURE IN THE WORLD OF

ISLAMOPHOBIA, DEMANDING APOLOGY

IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO

IT FROM A PLACE OF PRIDE WHICH

IS HOW I RECONNECTED WITH MY

RELIGION WAS FROM THE PLACE OF

PRIDE.

>> HOW ARE YOU GETTING THE WORD

OUT?

>> JUST BASIC WORD OF MOUTH AND

TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS.

WE DID WORKSHOPS.

IN NIGERIA, THE UNIVERSITY

INVITED ME TO COME AND SPEAK.

I'M TRYING TO BE KEEN ON IT'S

DEMAND-DRIVEN.

I DO NOT GO OUT AND ADVOCATE.

I JUST PROMOTE.

I PRODUCE MATERIAL.

I HAVE A SEX COLUMN ON MUSLIM

GIRL.NET FOR YOUNG MUSLIM WOMEN

TO ACCESS.

THOSE WHO REACH OUT TO ME ARE

THOSE I RESPOND TO.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT IS SUCH A

SENSITIVE TOPIC NOT ONE THAT I

DO ADVOCACY AROUND.

I CREATE SAFE SPACE AND ALLOW

PEOPLE TO COME TO.

>> AND YOU WOULD SAY THAT IN

TERMS OF EVEN IN THE UNITED

STATES THE TERMS THE LEVEL OF

EDUCATION THAT MUSLIM GIRLS IN

THIS CASE ARE GETTING, ABOUT SEX

EDUCATION AND ABOUT SEX, ABOUT

THE BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS,

EVERYTHING, YOU WOULD SAY IS

LOW?

>> THE LEVEL IS VERY LOW AND IT

SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE.

AND I THINK THE BIGGEST

CHALLENGE IS THAT THE COMMUNITY

AS A WHOLE, INCLUDING OUR TOP

WOMEN LEADERS, INCLUDING ARE

FOCUSED ON FIGHTING

ISLAMOPHOBIA.

AND SO MUCH OF THE FOCUS HAS

BEEN EXTERNAL THAT WE HAVE NOT

HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE

INTERNAL GROWTH TO TAKE PLACE.

>> AND SPEAKING OF EXTERM

REACTION YOU WEAR A HEAD SCARF

ALL THE TIME.

WHAT REACTION DO YOU GET FROM

AMERICANS WHEN YOU ARE OUT AND

ABOUT?

>> I MEAN, OVERALL, IT'S BEEN

THERE'S BEEN MORE TENSE.

AS YOU PROBABLY HEARD OVER THE

SPRING THERE WAS AN ATTACK IN

OUR MOSQUE IN YOUNG MUSLIM WOMAN

WAS KILLED.

AND SO THAT HITS HOME FOR A LOT

OF US.

IT'S ALMOST --

IT ALMOST BECOMES IRRELEVANT

WHAT THE REALITY IS BECAUSE WE

ARE LIVING IN A CONSTANT FEAR.

WHY I'M TRYING TO HELP SHIFT US

AWAY FROM A PLACE OF FEAR.

IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT TIME AND

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF

CONVERSATIONS AND ONE OF THE

QUESTIONS I GET SHOULD I TAKE

OFF THE SCARF?

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> ALMOST ALL THE RESPONSES THEY

NEED TO TRUST THEMSELVES.

NOBODY CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION

EXCEPT THEMSELVES.

I HELP THEM GET IN TOUCH WITH

THEIR OWN INTUITION BECAUSE I

BELIEVE THE DIVINE SPEAKS TO US.

AND EACH WOMAN HAS A DIFFERENT

ANSWER.

>> ISN'T IT SEEN AS A RADICAL

MESSAGE BY AMERICAN MUSLIMS AND

CERTAINLY BY NOT MUSLIMS BUT

EXTREMISTS DO YOU WORRY ABOUT

ANY GETTING ATTACKED OR BY

SAYING THAT SEXUALITY SHOULD BE

ENJOYED, WOMEN SHOULD HAVE IT,

SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN SEXUALITY

AND IT IS A WAY OF GETTING IN

TOUCH WITH THE DIVINE, DOESN'T

THAT MAKE SOME MEN ANGRY?

>> I WILL BE HONEST THIS TRIP TO

NORTHERN NIGERIA AND THIS

PROJECT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE

SCARIEST THAT I'VE DONE IN A

LONGTIME.

I WAS THERE JUST RIGHT AFTER THE

BOKO HARAM GIRLS WERE RELEASED

BY BOKO HARAM.

IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME TO

BE THERE AS A SMALL WINDOW OF

OPPORTUNITY WAS OPENING UP.

BUT THIS PROJECT AND YOU KNOW

THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE WHICH

INCLUDES IRAQ, SOUTH SUBBAN THIS

IS THE ONE THAT FRIGHTENS ME THE

MOST.

I'M NOT UNAWARE OF THE CHALLENGE

THAT COMES.

AND I WOULD SAY NOT JUST MUSLIM

WOMEN BUT THE QUESTION ON WOMEN

OWNING THEIR SEXUALITY AND

AGAIN, FROM A PLACE OF

CONNECTING WITH THE DIVINE, IS A

VERY HIT ON PARTICIPATE ARKY.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ONLY MUSLIM

MEN ANYONE INVESTED IN

PATRIARCHKY WOULD BE UPSET.

>> HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH IT

IF YOU WERE THREATENED?

>> I HAVE BEEN THREATENED.

IN NORTHERN NIGERIA I WAS TOLD

YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT ROAD TRIP.

AND THEY WILL NOT DRIVE THAT

ROAD.

SO YOU KNOW, I AM AHE NOT MY

NORTHEAST ABOUT SECURITY I TAKE

SECURITY VERY SERIOUSLY.

I DO EVERY THREE YEARS HOSTILE

ENVIRONMENT TRAINING AND TAKE IT

SERIOUSLY.

I'VE LOST TOO MANY WOMEN FRIENDS

AND ALLIES TO SECURITY

SITUATIONS.

AS YOU KNOW BACK DOWN IS NOT AN

OPTION.

AND AGAIN, I REALLY WORRY THAT

WOMEN HAVE BEEN CORNERED INTO A

PLACE WHERE WE ARE JUST

FIGHTING.

AND I WANT TO BUILD THE JOY AND

THE RESILIENCE IN US AGAIN.

THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL

PARTS OF THE FEMININE AND IT

MAKES ME SAD WE ARE STUCK IN A

BATTLE WHICH I HONOR ALL THOSE

FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

I DO AS SOMEONE WHO SPENT 20

YEARS THERE AS WELL BUT IT'S

TIME FOR US TO UNPLUG FROM THE

WAR MACHINE AND CONFLICT MACHINE

AND TALK ABOUT THE POWER OF

WOMEN FROM A PLACE OF JOY.

THAT IS A HARD SELL ESPECIALLY

IN THIS DAY AND AGE BUT SOMEONE

HAS TO RING THAT BELL.

>> WHEN YOU SAY AND YOU DO SAY

WOMEN ARE GOING BACKWARD.

RATES OF FEMALE GENITAL

MUTILATION IN THE UNITED STATES

ARE GOING UP.

OBVIOUSLY WELL TEEN PREGNANCIES

TO THIS POINT HAVE BEEN GOING

DOWN.

BUT BIRTHS TO UNWED MOTHERS ARE

SKYROCKETING ALL OVER THE PLACE.

SO WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

WHY ARE WOMEN AND PAY EQUITY IS

NOT ADVANCING AS WE THOUGHT IT

WOULD?

>> IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT THE

ROOT IS.

BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY

DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT ARE

PLAYING INTO IT.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT

I'M TRYING TO DO FOR MYSELF IS

SAYING OK WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN

THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS NOT

WORKED.

AND THAT IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT

IT'S WORKED SIGNIFICANTLY AND

GOTTEN US FAR.

BUT WE MIGHT WANT TO THINK OF A

NEW TRAGEDY TO TAKE US TO THE

NEXT LEVEL.

THAT IS WHERE I THINK A LOT OF

THE EFFORTS THAT I'M TRYING TO

MAKE.

IT'S ALWAYS HARD WHEN YOU ARE

TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS TO SAY IS

IT THE RE7 OR THE INCREASE.

BUT WE KNOW IN MINNEAPOLIS AND

DETROIT AND VIRGINIA WE HAVE HAD

AN INCREASE OF CONVERSATIONS

AROUND FGM AND WE'RE TRYING TO

RAISE THE AWARENESS HOW MUCH --

IT'S BEYOND PHYSICAL ABUSE.

IT COMPLETELY DISCONNECTS A

WOMAN FROM HER BODY AND THERE

ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES OF

PRACTICES THAT DO THAT.

WE'RE LAUNCHING THE

CONVERSATIONS AND AGAIN WE'RE

TRYING TO DO IT FROM A SEX

POSITIVE ANGLE.

BUT ALL 100% USING ISLAMIC

FRAMEWORK.

SO IT'S ALL BASED ON THE QURAN.

WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT REVIVAL OR

REINTERPRETATION, THE ARGUMENT

IS IT'S THERE WE JUST DON'T KNOW

OUR OWN RELIGION.

>> WHAT INFLUENCE IS THE TRUMP

PRESIDENCY HAVING ON WHERE

ISLAMIC GIRLS IN THE UNITED

STATES ARE GOING?

IS IT PUSHING THEM BACK?

IS IT MAKING THEM MILITANTS

MOVING FORWARD?

>> IT IS A COMBINATION.

IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING

THAT WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING

WITH.

YOU HAVE AS WITH MOST SOCIAL

MOVEMENTS THE MUSLIM WOMEN ARE

AT THE FRONTLINES, CARRYING THE

FLAG OF THE COMMUNITY AS A

WHOLE.

WHICH DOES NOT YOU KNOW, IS NOT

DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE SAW IN

UP AT THE FRONTLINES.

BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NEVER A

GUARANTEE TO DECISION MAKING OR

CHANGE ON A MORE DAY-TO-DAY

LEVEL.

SO PATRIARCH LOVES FEMALE

MASCOTS.

AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF

THAT SIDE AS WELL.

ON THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, I WORRY

BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE MOSQUE THAT

I GO TO WHERE THIS YOUNG WOMAN

WAS KILLED, THE QUESTION IS: DO

WE BRING BACK MALE COMPANION?

HOW DO WE --

YOU HAVE SELF-DEFENSE CLASSES

THAT ARE BEING OFFERED WHICH

WORRIES ME BECAUSE ONE OF THE

THINGS I DO WHEN I DO HOSTILE

ENVIRONMENT TRAINING IS WARN

WOMEN NOT TO HAVE A FALSE SENSE

OF CONFIDENCE.

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS MORE

IMPORTANT THAN THINKING THAT YOU

CAN ATTACK.

THE ISSUES I NEVER THOUGHT WE

WOULD HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS IN

AMERICA AND LEADING TRAINING FOR

YOUNG WOMEN ON THAT.

LIKE WHEN I FIRST WAS LOOKING AT

ACROSS RED LINES MY DREAM WAS TO

LEAP FORWARD.

AND I'M FINDING US BARELY ABLE

TO KEEP STATUS QUO.

>> THAT IS REALLY SAD TO HEAR.

BUT OBVIOUSLY IT'S HAPPENING IN

MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT ISIS.

SO YOU WERE RECRUITED ON-LINE BY

A PREDECESSOR TO ISIS WHEN YOU

WERE A TEENAGER IN THE 90s.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS.

AND NOW THAT THEY ARE LOSING

CONTROL, LOSING GROUND,

LITERALLY, IN SYRIA AND OTHER

PLACES, AND ESTIMATES I'VE HEARD

ESTIMATES THAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE

SHRINKING, IS THIS TRUE IN TERMS

OF THEIR ON-LINE RECRUITMENT?

>> I MEAN --

>> AND ESPECIALLY OF GIRLS.

>> ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS IS IN

THE 90s I WAS ON RELAY CHAT

AND YOU WOULD FIND THE CHATROOMS

AND THERE WAS I THINK IT WOULD

BE ENGAGEMENT NEVER USE

RECRUITMENT WHERE THEY WERE

ENGAGING AND BUILDING AND THEY

ARE 20 YEARS AHEAD.

THEY ARE NOT THINKING AND THE

THEY SHIFTS AND CHANGES.

I COMPARE IT TO A VIRUS THAT

MUTATES AND GETS STRONGER AND

BARBARIC IN DIFFERENT FORMS BUT

DIFFERENT GRIEVANCES HAVE BEEN

AROUND FOR A LONGTIME.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT MY

THEORY IS THAT AS THEY LOSE

TERRITORY THEY GO BACK TO THE

ON-LINE AND CYBER RECRUITMENTS

MORE STRONGLY.

AND WHAT I'VE SEEN IS IT'S MUCH

MORE TARGETED TOWARDS WOMEN AND

EMPOWERING FORM TOWARDS WOMEN.

THEY HAVE WOMEN WHO ARE GENERALS

LEADING BRIGADES.

AND THEY HAVE WOMEN THAT ARE

BEING CALLED INTO THE MOTHERS OF

THE BELIEVERS TO HAVE YOU COULD

BE THE MOTHER OF THE NEXT

SULTAN.

IT IS AN INDICATION THAT THEY

ARE PLANNING 15-20 YEARS AHEAD.

THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT RAISING

THE NEXT GENERATION OF WARRIORS

NOT JUST ABOUT FIGHTING THIS

WAR.

AND THIS IS ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE

WHEN IT'S IDEOLOGICAL WARFARE.

>> AND WE'VE SEEN MANY THOUSANDS

OF EXAMPLES OF YOUNG GIRLS BEING

RECRUITED TO ISIS AND SOME OF

THEM LATER BEING ABLE TO ESCAPE.

BUT WHAT WOULD MAKE A YOUNG

ISLAMIC GIRL WANT TO JOIN?

>> IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I UNPACKED

IN THE ARTICLE I WAS WRITING ON

CNN BECAUSE I WAS HAVING A HARD

TIME ASKING THAT QUESTION

ESPECIALLY AFTER THE INTERVIEWS.

IT IS SUCH A BARBARIC FORM OF

LIVING.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME

OUT ONE FROM THE RECRUITMENT AND

THE WOMEN MAKING THE ARGUMENT,

IF YOU ARE IN A SMALL VILLAGE IN

NORTHERN IRAQ OR SOME REMOTE

AREA AND YOU HAVE NO DECISION

MAKING CAPACITY ABOUT YOUR LIFE,

WHO YOU MARRY, WHO YOU GO TO

SCHOOL AND YOU SEE THIS VIDEO

WHERE YOU ARE NOT ONLY GOING TO

HAVE A DECISION YOU WILL BE IN

CONTROL.

AND IN SOME CASES THEY ARE

LEADING MEN.

AND SO WHICH LIFE ARE YOU GOING

TO CHOOSE?

AND THAT ANGLE OF EMPOWERMENT IS

AN ANGLE WE CONTINUOUSLY MISS

AND WE ARE GREAT AT DESCRIBING

WOMEN AS THE VICTIMS AND NOT IN

ANY EMPOWERING WAY.

BUT WE AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE

ROLE AS VICTIM.

WE MISS THE ROLE AS

PERPETRATORS.

AND ISIS HAS DEFINITELY FULLY

AWARE AND PLAYING UP THE ROLE AS

PERPETRATOR TO CONTROL.

WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE WE WERE

TALKING ABOUT HOW THE DAY-TO-DAY

LIFE IS FOR A WOMAN THEN IT

BECOMES A MORE TEMPTING PACKAGE.

AND IN MOST CASES THE WOMEN

CHOOSE THE MEN RECRUITING.

THEY CHOOSE WHO THEY MARRY IT'S

NOT THE OPPOSITE.

>> SERIOUSLY?

WOMEN CHOOSE THE MEN IN ISIS?

THE MEN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE.

>> YOU CAN STILL CHOOSE TO BE A

SECOND OR A THIRD WIFE.

AND AGAIN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE

IT'S NOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT

WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY OF

THE WHORE AND THE MADONNA.

THEY HAVE THE SEX SLAVES AND

THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE BARBARIC

ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE MOST

HEINOUS WAYS.

THEY USE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A

WAY OF BREAKING COMMUNITIES AND

THEY HAVE A STRATEGY HOW DO YOU

DEAL WITH THE MADONNA AND THE

ULTIMATE, THE HIGHEST WOMAN.

FROM THE INTERVIEWS THEY ARE

LIVING IN PALACES.

THEY HAVE ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT

YOU CAN IMAGINE.

THEY ARE TREATED LIKE WIVES OF

SULTAN.

WHAT WHAT HAPPENS THEY WILL SAY

THIS IS THE GROOM I WANT LIKE I

WANT TO BE THE WIFE OF THIS

GENERAL.

AND ONE OR TWO WIVES, MOST OF

THE RECRUITMENT VIDEOS THE

POSTERS THAT THEY HAVE ARE JUST

FRIGHTENING.

BUT IT IS A VERY MUCH PROMOTING

FOUR WIVES AT THE OPPORTUNITY

MALL AND THEY HAVE A DIAGRAM ONE

WIFE TWO KIDS.

AND THE TOP OF THE POSTER IS

HELP US BUILD THE COMMUNITY.

>> BUT I'VE ALSO READ WITH THE

YOUNG MEN THEY DO NOT WANT THEM

TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN

BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE THEM WANT

TO RISK THEIR LIVES ON THE FIELD

OF BATTLE LESS SO.

>> IT'S DIFFERENT STRATEGIES.

IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CREATE THE

DIFFERENT WIVES OF THE SULTAN

THEN YOU WILL BE MARRYING THEM

TO YOUR TOP GENERALS NOT THE

YOUNG BOYS FIGHTING THE FIGHT OR

THE SUICIDE BOMBERS.

BECAUSE THE GOAL IS

REPRODUCTION.

SO, YES, IT IS A DIFFERENCE.

>> ARE THEY REPRODUCING?

YOU ARE SAYING ESSENTIALLY THAT

ISIS IS STILL 20 YEARS AHEAD OF

US WHEN IT COMES TO ON-LINE

RECRUITMENT AND KEEPING BUILDING

THEIR NUMBERS.

>> I THINK WHAT --

IT'S HARD BECAUSE AGAIN WHAT

MIGHT END UP IN 20 YEARS MIGHT

BE A COMPLETE ISIS MIGHT BE THE

MODERATE THE SAME WAY THAT

PEOPLE NOW LOOK AT AL-QAEDA AND

TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE VALUES

AND PRINCIPLES THAT THEY LED BY.

WHO THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A

CONVERSATION?

MY WORRY IS WE ARE MOVING

TOWARDS MORE AND MORE EXTREME

FORMS.

AND SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T

NECESSARILY THINK IT WILL BE

ISIS IN 20 YEARS.

>> I WISH YOU ALL GOOD LUCK IN

EDUCATING YOUNG ISLAMIC GIRLS

ABOUT SEX AND ABOUT THEIR RIGHT

TO ENJOY SEX.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO

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