1 00:00:00,533 --> 00:00:02,633 >> SO YOU ARE A FEMINIST. 2 00:00:02,633 --> 00:00:04,266 HOW DOES THAT GO OVER IN THE 3 00:00:04,266 --> 00:00:05,433 MUSLIM WORLD? 4 00:00:05,433 --> 00:00:06,733 >> SO I USUALLY DON'T'S START 5 00:00:06,733 --> 00:00:08,700 WITH THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO 6 00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:10,500 USE THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF 7 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:11,933 BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT 8 00:00:11,933 --> 00:00:14,966 THAT WE OWN A WORD THAT UNITES 9 00:00:14,966 --> 00:00:15,233 US. 10 00:00:15,233 --> 00:00:16,833 BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE 11 00:00:16,833 --> 00:00:19,033 ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN 12 00:00:19,033 --> 00:00:19,766 AND THE FIRST PERSON TO ENTER 13 00:00:19,766 --> 00:00:23,800 ISLAM WAS A WOMAN. 14 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:24,966 WHEN THE QURAN WAS COMPILE 15 00:00:24,966 --> 00:00:26,233 WILLED, AND THE TRIBES DECIDED 16 00:00:26,233 --> 00:00:33,500 WHO TO GIVE IT TO, IT WAS A 17 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:34,366 WOMAN. 18 00:00:34,366 --> 00:00:44,166 [♪♪♪♪] 19 00:00:44,166 --> 00:00:47,000 >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME 20 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,000 TO TO THE CONTRARY. 21 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,933 THIS WEEK, A CONVERSATION WITH 22 00:00:51,933 --> 00:00:52,333 MANAL OMAR. 23 00:00:52,333 --> 00:00:54,133 MANAL FOUNDED A NEW ORGANIZATION 24 00:00:54,133 --> 00:00:56,400 CALLED ACROSS RED LINES AND WE 25 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,666 WILL BE TELLING YOU WHAT THAT IS 26 00:00:58,666 --> 00:01:00,133 ABOUT AND IT'S EXCITING. 27 00:01:00,133 --> 00:01:02,000 AND SHE IS ALSO A TRUMAN 28 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,400 NATIONAL SECURITY FELLOW. 29 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,300 AND SHE IS A THOUGHT LEADER WHEN 30 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,833 IT COMES TO ISSUES AT THE 31 00:01:08,833 --> 00:01:11,900 INTERSECTION OF GENDER, EQUALITY 32 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:12,733 AND ISLAM. 33 00:01:12,733 --> 00:01:15,966 WELCOME, MANAL AND FREQUENT TO 34 00:01:15,966 --> 00:01:17,800 THE CONTRARY PANELIST AS WELL. 35 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,800 >> THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR 36 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:19,500 HAVING ME. 37 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:22,933 >> ACROSS RED LINES WHAT IS THAT 38 00:01:22,933 --> 00:01:23,233 ABOUT? 39 00:01:23,233 --> 00:01:24,500 >> IT IS A COMPANY THAT I JUST 40 00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:26,566 LAUNCHED THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING 41 00:01:26,566 --> 00:01:28,300 WOMEN PARTICULARLY MUSLIM WOMEN 42 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:29,633 BUT WOMEN OF FAITH IN GENERAL 43 00:01:29,633 --> 00:01:31,433 WITH A SAFE SPACE TO EXPLORE 44 00:01:31,433 --> 00:01:33,233 SEXUALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS LENS. 45 00:01:33,233 --> 00:01:39,566 >> AND NO SUCH THING EXISTS? 46 00:01:39,566 --> 00:01:40,333 >> WELL THERE'S DIFFERENT 47 00:01:40,333 --> 00:01:42,500 WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE 48 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:44,333 ISLAMIC WORLD AND A LOT I'VE 49 00:01:44,333 --> 00:01:47,633 BEEN WORKING WITH BUT FROM MY 50 00:01:47,633 --> 00:01:48,800 OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WHEN I 51 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,533 WENT THROUGH MY DIVORCE I HAD 52 00:01:52,533 --> 00:01:54,266 QUESTIONS ABOUT MY SEXUALITY 53 00:01:54,266 --> 00:01:56,666 ABOUT MY FAITH AND MY ROLE AS A 54 00:01:56,666 --> 00:02:00,100 WOMAN'S ACTIVIST WHEN IT SEEMS 55 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:03,100 LIKE THEY WERE AT CONTRADICTION 56 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:05,333 AND I LOOKED FOR WORKSHOPS AND 57 00:02:05,333 --> 00:02:07,000 BOOKS AND THERE WASN'T ANYTHING. 58 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,100 AND IT WAS ALMOST A POINT OF 59 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:09,500 DESPERATION. 60 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:11,400 I SPENT THE LAST THREE YEARS 61 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,666 DOING THE RE7 FOR MYSELF. 62 00:02:13,666 --> 00:02:14,833 AND THAT INSPIRED ME. 63 00:02:14,833 --> 00:02:16,233 WHY DON'T I SHARE IT AND IT 64 00:02:16,233 --> 00:02:17,400 LAUNCHED ACROSS RED LINES. 65 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,366 >> I BELIEVE THE LACK OF 66 00:02:19,366 --> 00:02:22,166 CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUALITY HAS 67 00:02:22,166 --> 00:02:24,366 CRIPPLED OUR COMMUNITY. 68 00:02:24,366 --> 00:02:25,600 >> WHEN I ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS 69 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,333 YOUR IDEA ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW 70 00:02:27,333 --> 00:02:28,500 SOMEONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF 71 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:30,766 MARRIAGE THEY USE WORDS LIKE 72 00:02:30,766 --> 00:02:32,466 COURTING, TALKING. 73 00:02:32,466 --> 00:02:34,433 >> OPEN HONEST DISCUSSIONS ABOUT 74 00:02:34,433 --> 00:02:37,400 SEXUALITY IS A RED LINE THAT THE 75 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,200 MOST POWERFUL MUSLIM WOMEN WILL 76 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,066 NOT CROSS. 77 00:02:41,066 --> 00:02:44,333 I WANT TO CROSS IT. 78 00:02:44,333 --> 00:02:46,700 >> TELL ME ABOUT, HAVE YOU BEEN 79 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:48,733 BESIEGED WITH INQUIRES FROM 80 00:02:48,733 --> 00:02:51,400 WOMEN WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE? 81 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,966 WHAT IS THE AVERAGE ABOUT SEX 82 00:02:52,966 --> 00:02:56,133 AND SEXUALITY HERE IN THE U.S. 83 00:02:56,133 --> 00:02:57,766 MUSLIM WOMEN, WHAT IS THEIR 84 00:02:57,766 --> 00:02:59,533 LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE? 85 00:02:59,533 --> 00:03:00,666 >> I MEAN, YOU KNOW IT'S VERY 86 00:03:00,666 --> 00:03:02,366 HARD AS YOU KNOW TO SPEAK ABOUT 87 00:03:02,366 --> 00:03:04,566 WOMEN AS A MONOLITH AND MUSLIM 88 00:03:04,566 --> 00:03:05,900 WOMEN IN GENERAL AND ESPECIALLY 89 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:07,133 WHEN YOU COME TO AMERICAN MUSLIM 90 00:03:07,133 --> 00:03:09,000 WOMEN BECAUSE THERE IS A DIVERSE 91 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,300 CULTURAL BACKGROUND AS WELL. 92 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:14,233 BUT OVERWHELMINGLY, IT'S JUST 93 00:03:14,233 --> 00:03:15,933 VERY MALE DOMINATED 94 00:03:15,933 --> 00:03:17,366 ININTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT COMES 95 00:03:17,366 --> 00:03:19,300 TO ANYTHING INVOLVING WOMEN IN 96 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:20,100 ISLAM. 97 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:21,666 THERE'S BEEN STRONG SUCCESS IN 98 00:03:21,666 --> 00:03:24,200 THE LAST 20 YEARS ON RAISING THE 99 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:25,333 RIGHTS ISSUES. 100 00:03:25,333 --> 00:03:26,633 WHAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IS THE 101 00:03:26,633 --> 00:03:28,666 CONVERSATION ON SEXUALITY FROM A 102 00:03:28,666 --> 00:03:30,300 SEX POSITIVE LENS. 103 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:32,366 WE HAVE HAD GREAT ORGANIZATIONS 104 00:03:32,366 --> 00:03:34,900 TACKLING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND 105 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:37,266 TACKLING SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE 106 00:03:37,266 --> 00:03:38,600 MOSQUE WE HAVE HAD ORGANIZATIONS 107 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,133 STEP UP IN THE LAST DECADE IN 108 00:03:41,133 --> 00:03:41,466 AMERICA. 109 00:03:41,466 --> 00:03:42,433 AND IN THE WORLD. 110 00:03:42,433 --> 00:03:43,966 BUT THAT SEX POSITIVE 111 00:03:43,966 --> 00:03:46,066 CONVERSATION WHICH I ARGUE IS AN 112 00:03:46,066 --> 00:03:47,533 ESSENTIAL PART OF ISLAM BECAUSE 113 00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:49,000 ISLAM TALKS ABOUT HOW YOU 114 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,400 CONNECT TO THE DIVINE IN ALL 115 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,566 YOUR SENSES IS A MISSING GAP. 116 00:03:53,566 --> 00:03:55,000 WHEN WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE 117 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,800 EXPLOITATION AND THE ABUSE, THEN 118 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,300 WE LOSE THE OTHER ANGLE ON 119 00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:01,400 WOMEN'S ISSUES THE JOY AND THE 120 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:02,800 PLEASURE AND RESILIENCE. 121 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,600 MY HOPE IS WE CAN BUILD THAT 122 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,533 SIDE THROUGH THIS LENS ON 123 00:04:06,533 --> 00:04:07,866 TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY. 124 00:04:07,866 --> 00:04:09,100 >> WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE 125 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:11,833 ISLAMIC COMMUNITY IN AMERICA IS 126 00:04:11,833 --> 00:04:14,466 MORE FORWARD THINKING THAN IN 127 00:04:14,466 --> 00:04:17,100 NORTH AFRICA OR SOUTH ASIA? 128 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,000 >> I WOULD SAY THE OPPOSITE. 129 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,300 I WAS RAISED HERE. 130 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:23,700 I WAS TAUGHT ISLAM THROUGH THE 131 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:24,400 SYSTEM HERE. 132 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:25,700 AND VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE 133 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:27,066 AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND 134 00:04:27,066 --> 00:04:28,900 I'M GRATEFUL FOR IT BECAUSE IT 135 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:30,133 GAVE ME AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY 136 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:30,533 BACKGROUND. 137 00:04:30,533 --> 00:04:32,133 BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I STARTED 138 00:04:32,133 --> 00:04:33,566 TRAVELING THE WORLD AND I SAW 139 00:04:33,566 --> 00:04:38,566 HOW RICH AND OPEN ISLAM IS. 140 00:04:38,566 --> 00:04:39,866 AND MY PERSONAL THEORY IS THAT 141 00:04:39,866 --> 00:04:41,433 WE GET FROZEN IN THE TIME THAT 142 00:04:41,433 --> 00:04:43,133 OUR PARENTS LEFT. 143 00:04:43,133 --> 00:04:46,333 I WAS RAISED IN A 1960s 144 00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:48,233 PALESTINE, WHERE IF IF YOU GO TO 145 00:04:48,233 --> 00:04:50,200 PALESTINE OR WHERE PEOPLE ARE 146 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,666 FROM THERE IS A HUGE WIDE OF 147 00:04:53,666 --> 00:04:55,433 INTERPRETATIONS A HUGE WIDE THE 148 00:04:55,433 --> 00:04:57,500 WAY THE RELIGION IS PRACTICED. 149 00:04:57,500 --> 00:04:58,966 HERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE ARE 150 00:04:58,966 --> 00:05:01,266 FROZEN IN TIME. 151 00:05:01,266 --> 00:05:02,733 >> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR 152 00:05:02,733 --> 00:05:04,933 EXAMPLE THAT IN NIGERIA WHERE 153 00:05:04,933 --> 00:05:10,266 BOKO HARAM IS KIDNAPPING SCHOOL 154 00:05:10,266 --> 00:05:10,933 GIRLS AND GIRLS ARE NOT IN 155 00:05:10,933 --> 00:05:13,033 SCHOOL ANYMORE THEIR PARENTS ARE 156 00:05:13,033 --> 00:05:14,866 AFRAID TO SEND THEM HOW IS IT 157 00:05:14,866 --> 00:05:18,433 POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE MORE 158 00:05:18,433 --> 00:05:19,866 LIBERATED, IF YOU WILL, MORE 159 00:05:19,866 --> 00:05:23,066 PROGRESSIVE THAN AMERICAN MUSLIM 160 00:05:23,066 --> 00:05:27,833 WOMEN WHO ARE LAWYERS AND 161 00:05:27,833 --> 00:05:33,833 DOCTORS AND UNIVERSITY 162 00:05:33,833 --> 00:05:36,633 PRESIDENTS AND C.E.O.S, THAN 163 00:05:36,633 --> 00:05:38,700 WHEN COMPARED WITH OTHER 164 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:39,300 COUNTRIES? 165 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:40,500 >> I WOULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN 166 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:41,900 THE INTERPRETATIONS AND THE 167 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:44,033 SCHOLARSHIP AND THE STATUS OF 168 00:05:44,033 --> 00:05:44,600 WOMEN. 169 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,100 THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT. 170 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:48,000 WITH THE STATUS OF WOMEN JUST BY 171 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000 DEFAULT OUR ACCESS TO EDUCATION 172 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,100 AND HEALTHCARE WE ARE ALWAYS 173 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:52,500 GOING TO BE BETTER. 174 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:54,166 I WAS LOOKING AT THE ISLAMIC 175 00:05:54,166 --> 00:05:56,333 INTERPRETATION LENS AND THAT 176 00:05:56,333 --> 00:05:57,733 TENDS TO BE FROZEN IN TIME. 177 00:05:57,733 --> 00:05:59,800 WE DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS. 178 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,266 AND I THINK IN AMERICA -- 179 00:06:01,266 --> 00:06:02,600 >> EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN. 180 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,133 >> AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS IN 181 00:06:05,133 --> 00:06:08,933 NIGERIA I WAS ABLE TO MEET WITH 182 00:06:08,933 --> 00:06:13,733 ISLAMIC SCHOLARS FOR ACROSS RED 183 00:06:13,733 --> 00:06:14,933 LINES, AND TO REALLY PUSH THEM 184 00:06:14,933 --> 00:06:16,633 ON CERTAIN ISSUES THAT MAY 185 00:06:16,633 --> 00:06:19,133 TROUBLE ME FROM A WOMEN'S 186 00:06:19,133 --> 00:06:19,533 PERSPECTIVE. 187 00:06:19,533 --> 00:06:22,966 ON THE WITNESSES OR ON WHAT ISIS 188 00:06:22,966 --> 00:06:24,766 IS USING IN TERMS OF THEIR 189 00:06:24,766 --> 00:06:26,533 RECRUITMENT STRATEGIES. 190 00:06:26,533 --> 00:06:28,166 SO A LOT OF THE TIMES IF I HAVE 191 00:06:28,166 --> 00:06:29,666 THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS HERE 192 00:06:29,666 --> 00:06:31,500 WHAT I GET IS READ THE 193 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:33,500 SCHOLARSHIP THAT IS ALREADY IN 194 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:34,633 THE PAST. 195 00:06:34,633 --> 00:06:36,000 WHEREAS WHAT YOU WILL FIND IN 196 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,200 SOME NOT IN ALL CONTEXT AND ALL 197 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:39,766 RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS BUT I HAD THE 198 00:06:39,766 --> 00:06:41,266 SAME EXPERIENCE IN YEMEN IF YOU 199 00:06:41,266 --> 00:06:43,066 FIND PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE 200 00:06:43,066 --> 00:06:45,533 RELIGION AND THE SCRIPTURE YOU 201 00:06:45,533 --> 00:06:47,666 CAN DECONSTRUCT THE LAWS. 202 00:06:47,666 --> 00:06:48,500 AND THE WAY THAT SOMEONE 203 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,466 EXPLAINED IT TO ME WHICH WAS 204 00:06:51,466 --> 00:06:53,266 BRILLIANT IS ISLAM DOESN'T 205 00:06:53,266 --> 00:06:57,600 NECESSARILY NEED A REFMATION, 206 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:58,733 BECAUSE IT IS A LEGAL-BASED 207 00:06:58,733 --> 00:07:00,800 SYSTEM AND THE VALUES WILL NOT 208 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,500 CHANGE BUT FROM THE BEGINNING 209 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:03,233 ISLAM ANTICIPATED THE LAWS TO 210 00:07:03,233 --> 00:07:03,566 CHANGE. 211 00:07:03,566 --> 00:07:07,433 AND THE LAWS SHOULD CHANGE WITH 212 00:07:07,433 --> 00:07:08,433 PEOPLE AND THAT IS WHAT THE 213 00:07:08,433 --> 00:07:09,333 SCHOLARS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE 214 00:07:09,333 --> 00:07:09,800 DOING. 215 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,600 >> LET'S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT 216 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,666 HOW THAT IMPACTS THE AVERAGE 217 00:07:14,666 --> 00:07:16,433 WOMAN IN THE U.S. VERSUS THE 218 00:07:16,433 --> 00:07:21,400 AVERAGE WOMAN IN THE PHILIPPINES 219 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,600 OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN SOUTH ASIA 220 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,533 OR NORTH AFRICA. 221 00:07:26,533 --> 00:07:28,700 MY EXPERIENCE AND I'VE BEEN TO 222 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,333 70 SOME ODD COUNTRIES IS THAT 223 00:07:31,333 --> 00:07:33,200 WOMEN ARE WAY MORE REPRESSED IN 224 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,066 THEIR DAILY LIVES. 225 00:07:35,066 --> 00:07:37,533 SO THAT IS WHAT I WAS GETTING 226 00:07:37,533 --> 00:07:37,800 AT. 227 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,266 >> IN TERMS OF DAILY LIVES, 228 00:07:39,266 --> 00:07:39,666 ABSOLUTELY. 229 00:07:39,666 --> 00:07:41,200 I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF 230 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,200 THE AMMUNITION TO PUSHBACK ON 231 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,900 THE SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ON 232 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:46,266 SEXUALITY. 233 00:07:46,266 --> 00:07:48,466 THAT AMMUNITION IS WHAT WE ARE 234 00:07:48,466 --> 00:07:48,800 LACKING. 235 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,733 >> THE WOMEN THERE ARE TREATED 236 00:07:50,733 --> 00:07:53,366 IN MANY COUNTRIES NO BETTER THAN 237 00:07:53,366 --> 00:07:54,933 CHATTLE, REALLY. 238 00:07:54,933 --> 00:07:55,833 >> WORSE. 239 00:07:55,833 --> 00:07:58,266 >> WOMEN WERE TREATED IN 240 00:07:58,266 --> 00:08:00,666 BIBLICAL TIMES. 241 00:08:00,666 --> 00:08:01,433 >> ABSOLUTELY. 242 00:08:01,433 --> 00:08:03,500 >> SO WHEN YOU -- 243 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:04,400 YOU ARE A FEMINIST 244 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,433 >> YES, ABSOLUTELY. 245 00:08:06,433 --> 00:08:09,100 >> WHEN YOU TELL PEOPLE OR SPEAK 246 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:12,400 TO AN AUDIENCE OF MUSLIMS HERE 247 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,633 AND OVERSEAS, HOW DO THEY TAKE 248 00:08:14,633 --> 00:08:15,066 THAT? 249 00:08:15,066 --> 00:08:16,566 >> SO I USUALLY DON'T START WITH 250 00:08:16,566 --> 00:08:18,600 THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO USE 251 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,166 THE WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF 252 00:08:20,166 --> 00:08:21,066 BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY 253 00:08:21,066 --> 00:08:23,366 IMPORTANT THAT WE OWN A WORD 254 00:08:23,366 --> 00:08:24,900 THAT UNITES US. 255 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:26,500 BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE 256 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,700 ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN 257 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:29,933 AND THE FIRST PERSON TO INTER 258 00:08:29,933 --> 00:08:31,500 ISLAM WAS A WOMAN THE FIRST 259 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:34,500 MARTYR WAS A WOMAN, WHEN THE 260 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:36,333 TRIBES DECIDED WHO TO GIVE IT 261 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:40,500 TO, IT WAS A WOMAN. 262 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:44,800 SO I USE THAT AS THE ENTRY POINT 263 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,900 WITH THE RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS 264 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:48,333 SAYING WITH THE POINT OF PRIDE 265 00:08:48,333 --> 00:08:49,733 OF HOW REVOLUTIONARY ISLAM WAS 266 00:08:49,733 --> 00:08:50,866 TO WOMEN. 267 00:08:50,866 --> 00:08:52,366 AND USUALLY THEY GET EXCITED AND 268 00:08:52,366 --> 00:08:56,633 SHARE THEIR OWN STORIES AND I 269 00:08:56,633 --> 00:08:58,266 ASK THEM WHEN DID WE LOSE IT? 270 00:08:58,266 --> 00:08:59,400 BECAUSE WE LOST IT? 271 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,333 AND THAT CAN OPEN UP THE 272 00:09:01,333 --> 00:09:03,433 CONVERSATION AROUND FEMINISM AND 273 00:09:03,433 --> 00:09:05,566 SEXUALITY AND THIS ARGUMENT OF 274 00:09:05,566 --> 00:09:07,300 SAYING ISLAM WAS THE ORIGINAL 275 00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:09,333 MOVEMENT FOR A LOT OF THESE 276 00:09:09,333 --> 00:09:11,266 COMMUNITIES AND IT GOT LOST HOW 277 00:09:11,266 --> 00:09:12,166 DO WE RECLAIM IT. 278 00:09:12,166 --> 00:09:14,000 AND IT TAKES AWAY THE DEFENSIVE 279 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,633 POSTURE IN THE WORLD OF 280 00:09:15,633 --> 00:09:19,166 ISLAMOPHOBIA, DEMANDING APOLOGY 281 00:09:19,166 --> 00:09:20,900 IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO 282 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:23,433 IT FROM A PLACE OF PRIDE WHICH 283 00:09:23,433 --> 00:09:24,733 IS HOW I RECONNECTED WITH MY 284 00:09:24,733 --> 00:09:27,266 RELIGION WAS FROM THE PLACE OF 285 00:09:27,266 --> 00:09:28,066 PRIDE. 286 00:09:28,066 --> 00:09:30,000 >> HOW ARE YOU GETTING THE WORD 287 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:30,900 OUT? 288 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:32,833 >> JUST BASIC WORD OF MOUTH AND 289 00:09:32,833 --> 00:09:35,500 TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS. 290 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:36,900 WE DID WORKSHOPS. 291 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:40,133 IN NIGERIA, THE UNIVERSITY 292 00:09:40,133 --> 00:09:44,233 INVITED ME TO COME AND SPEAK. 293 00:09:44,233 --> 00:09:47,500 I'M TRYING TO BE KEEN ON IT'S 294 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:47,933 DEMAND-DRIVEN. 295 00:09:47,933 --> 00:09:50,866 I DO NOT GO OUT AND ADVOCATE. 296 00:09:50,866 --> 00:09:52,433 I JUST PROMOTE. 297 00:09:52,433 --> 00:09:53,400 I PRODUCE MATERIAL. 298 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,833 I HAVE A SEX COLUMN ON MUSLIM 299 00:09:54,833 --> 00:09:56,533 GIRL.NET FOR YOUNG MUSLIM WOMEN 300 00:09:56,533 --> 00:09:58,933 TO ACCESS. 301 00:09:58,933 --> 00:09:59,900 THOSE WHO REACH OUT TO ME ARE 302 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,033 THOSE I RESPOND TO. 303 00:10:02,033 --> 00:10:03,233 IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT IS SUCH A 304 00:10:03,233 --> 00:10:05,033 SENSITIVE TOPIC NOT ONE THAT I 305 00:10:05,033 --> 00:10:07,700 DO ADVOCACY AROUND. 306 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:09,333 I CREATE SAFE SPACE AND ALLOW 307 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:11,300 PEOPLE TO COME TO. 308 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,366 >> AND YOU WOULD SAY THAT IN 309 00:10:14,366 --> 00:10:15,433 TERMS OF EVEN IN THE UNITED 310 00:10:15,433 --> 00:10:20,166 STATES THE TERMS THE LEVEL OF 311 00:10:20,166 --> 00:10:23,133 EDUCATION THAT MUSLIM GIRLS IN 312 00:10:23,133 --> 00:10:26,466 THIS CASE ARE GETTING, ABOUT SEX 313 00:10:26,466 --> 00:10:28,766 EDUCATION AND ABOUT SEX, ABOUT 314 00:10:28,766 --> 00:10:30,433 THE BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS, 315 00:10:30,433 --> 00:10:32,833 EVERYTHING, YOU WOULD SAY IS 316 00:10:32,833 --> 00:10:33,666 LOW? 317 00:10:33,666 --> 00:10:35,900 >> THE LEVEL IS VERY LOW AND IT 318 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:37,200 SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE. 319 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,033 AND I THINK THE BIGGEST 320 00:10:38,033 --> 00:10:39,733 CHALLENGE IS THAT THE COMMUNITY 321 00:10:39,733 --> 00:10:42,666 AS A WHOLE, INCLUDING OUR TOP 322 00:10:42,666 --> 00:10:45,366 WOMEN LEADERS, INCLUDING ARE 323 00:10:45,366 --> 00:10:46,900 FOCUSED ON FIGHTING 324 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:47,333 ISLAMOPHOBIA. 325 00:10:47,333 --> 00:10:48,633 AND SO MUCH OF THE FOCUS HAS 326 00:10:48,633 --> 00:10:50,633 BEEN EXTERNAL THAT WE HAVE NOT 327 00:10:50,633 --> 00:10:53,500 HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE 328 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:54,866 INTERNAL GROWTH TO TAKE PLACE. 329 00:10:54,866 --> 00:10:56,466 >> AND SPEAKING OF EXTERM 330 00:10:56,466 --> 00:10:58,533 REACTION YOU WEAR A HEAD SCARF 331 00:10:58,533 --> 00:10:59,633 ALL THE TIME. 332 00:10:59,633 --> 00:11:01,400 WHAT REACTION DO YOU GET FROM 333 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,766 AMERICANS WHEN YOU ARE OUT AND 334 00:11:03,766 --> 00:11:04,466 ABOUT? 335 00:11:04,466 --> 00:11:07,366 >> I MEAN, OVERALL, IT'S BEEN 336 00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:10,133 THERE'S BEEN MORE TENSE. 337 00:11:10,133 --> 00:11:13,966 AS YOU PROBABLY HEARD OVER THE 338 00:11:13,966 --> 00:11:16,166 SPRING THERE WAS AN ATTACK IN 339 00:11:16,166 --> 00:11:16,966 OUR MOSQUE IN YOUNG MUSLIM WOMAN 340 00:11:16,966 --> 00:11:17,466 WAS KILLED. 341 00:11:17,466 --> 00:11:19,433 AND SO THAT HITS HOME FOR A LOT 342 00:11:19,433 --> 00:11:21,566 OF US. 343 00:11:21,566 --> 00:11:23,566 IT'S ALMOST -- 344 00:11:23,566 --> 00:11:25,933 IT ALMOST BECOMES IRRELEVANT 345 00:11:25,933 --> 00:11:27,233 WHAT THE REALITY IS BECAUSE WE 346 00:11:27,233 --> 00:11:29,333 ARE LIVING IN A CONSTANT FEAR. 347 00:11:29,333 --> 00:11:30,766 WHY I'M TRYING TO HELP SHIFT US 348 00:11:30,766 --> 00:11:34,433 AWAY FROM A PLACE OF FEAR. 349 00:11:34,433 --> 00:11:36,033 IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT TIME AND 350 00:11:36,033 --> 00:11:36,733 THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF 351 00:11:36,733 --> 00:11:38,366 CONVERSATIONS AND ONE OF THE 352 00:11:38,366 --> 00:11:39,766 QUESTIONS I GET SHOULD I TAKE 353 00:11:39,766 --> 00:11:41,833 OFF THE SCARF? 354 00:11:41,833 --> 00:11:44,333 >> WHAT DO YOU SAY? 355 00:11:44,333 --> 00:11:45,700 >> ALMOST ALL THE RESPONSES THEY 356 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:46,866 NEED TO TRUST THEMSELVES. 357 00:11:46,866 --> 00:11:48,500 NOBODY CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION 358 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:49,533 EXCEPT THEMSELVES. 359 00:11:49,533 --> 00:11:53,266 I HELP THEM GET IN TOUCH WITH 360 00:11:53,266 --> 00:11:55,066 THEIR OWN INTUITION BECAUSE I 361 00:11:55,066 --> 00:11:57,300 BELIEVE THE DIVINE SPEAKS TO US. 362 00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:59,333 AND EACH WOMAN HAS A DIFFERENT 363 00:11:59,333 --> 00:11:59,933 ANSWER. 364 00:11:59,933 --> 00:12:03,000 >> ISN'T IT SEEN AS A RADICAL 365 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,600 MESSAGE BY AMERICAN MUSLIMS AND 366 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,233 CERTAINLY BY NOT MUSLIMS BUT 367 00:12:10,233 --> 00:12:13,133 EXTREMISTS DO YOU WORRY ABOUT 368 00:12:13,133 --> 00:12:15,600 ANY GETTING ATTACKED OR BY 369 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,233 SAYING THAT SEXUALITY SHOULD BE 370 00:12:18,233 --> 00:12:20,366 ENJOYED, WOMEN SHOULD HAVE IT, 371 00:12:20,366 --> 00:12:22,100 SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN SEXUALITY 372 00:12:22,100 --> 00:12:24,666 AND IT IS A WAY OF GETTING IN 373 00:12:24,666 --> 00:12:27,066 TOUCH WITH THE DIVINE, DOESN'T 374 00:12:27,066 --> 00:12:30,366 THAT MAKE SOME MEN ANGRY? 375 00:12:30,366 --> 00:12:33,366 >> I WILL BE HONEST THIS TRIP TO 376 00:12:33,366 --> 00:12:35,100 NORTHERN NIGERIA AND THIS 377 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:36,733 PROJECT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE 378 00:12:36,733 --> 00:12:39,233 SCARIEST THAT I'VE DONE IN A 379 00:12:39,233 --> 00:12:39,933 LONGTIME. 380 00:12:39,933 --> 00:12:43,433 I WAS THERE JUST RIGHT AFTER THE 381 00:12:43,433 --> 00:12:44,433 BOKO HARAM GIRLS WERE RELEASED 382 00:12:44,433 --> 00:12:45,600 BY BOKO HARAM. 383 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,733 IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME TO 384 00:12:47,733 --> 00:12:49,266 BE THERE AS A SMALL WINDOW OF 385 00:12:49,266 --> 00:12:51,500 OPPORTUNITY WAS OPENING UP. 386 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:52,966 BUT THIS PROJECT AND YOU KNOW 387 00:12:52,966 --> 00:12:54,133 THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE WHICH 388 00:12:54,133 --> 00:12:57,533 INCLUDES IRAQ, SOUTH SUBBAN THIS 389 00:12:57,533 --> 00:12:59,733 IS THE ONE THAT FRIGHTENS ME THE 390 00:12:59,733 --> 00:13:00,100 MOST. 391 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,900 I'M NOT UNAWARE OF THE CHALLENGE 392 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:03,633 THAT COMES. 393 00:13:03,633 --> 00:13:05,066 AND I WOULD SAY NOT JUST MUSLIM 394 00:13:05,066 --> 00:13:07,300 WOMEN BUT THE QUESTION ON WOMEN 395 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:08,500 OWNING THEIR SEXUALITY AND 396 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:11,233 AGAIN, FROM A PLACE OF 397 00:13:11,233 --> 00:13:13,200 CONNECTING WITH THE DIVINE, IS A 398 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,900 VERY HIT ON PARTICIPATE ARKY. 399 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,100 I DON'T THINK IT'S ONLY MUSLIM 400 00:13:17,100 --> 00:13:18,266 MEN ANYONE INVESTED IN 401 00:13:18,266 --> 00:13:21,766 PATRIARCHKY WOULD BE UPSET. 402 00:13:21,766 --> 00:13:23,766 >> HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH IT 403 00:13:23,766 --> 00:13:27,000 IF YOU WERE THREATENED? 404 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,066 >> I HAVE BEEN THREATENED. 405 00:13:30,066 --> 00:13:32,666 IN NORTHERN NIGERIA I WAS TOLD 406 00:13:32,666 --> 00:13:37,233 YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT ROAD TRIP. 407 00:13:37,233 --> 00:13:39,066 AND THEY WILL NOT DRIVE THAT 408 00:13:39,066 --> 00:13:39,366 ROAD. 409 00:13:39,366 --> 00:13:40,733 SO YOU KNOW, I AM AHE NOT MY 410 00:13:40,733 --> 00:13:42,166 NORTHEAST ABOUT SECURITY I TAKE 411 00:13:42,166 --> 00:13:44,166 SECURITY VERY SERIOUSLY. 412 00:13:44,166 --> 00:13:46,066 I DO EVERY THREE YEARS HOSTILE 413 00:13:46,066 --> 00:13:48,500 ENVIRONMENT TRAINING AND TAKE IT 414 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:48,866 SERIOUSLY. 415 00:13:48,866 --> 00:13:50,800 I'VE LOST TOO MANY WOMEN FRIENDS 416 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,600 AND ALLIES TO SECURITY 417 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:53,366 SITUATIONS. 418 00:13:53,366 --> 00:13:57,366 AS YOU KNOW BACK DOWN IS NOT AN 419 00:13:57,366 --> 00:13:57,700 OPTION. 420 00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:59,100 AND AGAIN, I REALLY WORRY THAT 421 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:01,133 WOMEN HAVE BEEN CORNERED INTO A 422 00:14:01,133 --> 00:14:02,766 PLACE WHERE WE ARE JUST 423 00:14:02,766 --> 00:14:03,133 FIGHTING. 424 00:14:03,133 --> 00:14:04,600 AND I WANT TO BUILD THE JOY AND 425 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:05,700 THE RESILIENCE IN US AGAIN. 426 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:06,733 THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL 427 00:14:06,733 --> 00:14:08,966 PARTS OF THE FEMININE AND IT 428 00:14:08,966 --> 00:14:12,933 MAKES ME SAD WE ARE STUCK IN A 429 00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:16,066 BATTLE WHICH I HONOR ALL THOSE 430 00:14:16,066 --> 00:14:17,833 FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS. 431 00:14:17,833 --> 00:14:19,066 I DO AS SOMEONE WHO SPENT 20 432 00:14:19,066 --> 00:14:21,000 YEARS THERE AS WELL BUT IT'S 433 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,400 TIME FOR US TO UNPLUG FROM THE 434 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,600 WAR MACHINE AND CONFLICT MACHINE 435 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,100 AND TALK ABOUT THE POWER OF 436 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:29,933 WOMEN FROM A PLACE OF JOY. 437 00:14:29,933 --> 00:14:31,366 THAT IS A HARD SELL ESPECIALLY 438 00:14:31,366 --> 00:14:32,866 IN THIS DAY AND AGE BUT SOMEONE 439 00:14:32,866 --> 00:14:34,600 HAS TO RING THAT BELL. 440 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,866 >> WHEN YOU SAY AND YOU DO SAY 441 00:14:36,866 --> 00:14:40,300 WOMEN ARE GOING BACKWARD. 442 00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:41,300 RATES OF FEMALE GENITAL 443 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:44,366 MUTILATION IN THE UNITED STATES 444 00:14:44,366 --> 00:14:46,933 ARE GOING UP. 445 00:14:46,933 --> 00:14:49,433 OBVIOUSLY WELL TEEN PREGNANCIES 446 00:14:49,433 --> 00:14:51,766 TO THIS POINT HAVE BEEN GOING 447 00:14:51,766 --> 00:14:52,066 DOWN. 448 00:14:52,066 --> 00:14:53,866 BUT BIRTHS TO UNWED MOTHERS ARE 449 00:14:53,866 --> 00:14:56,900 SKYROCKETING ALL OVER THE PLACE. 450 00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:59,366 SO WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS? 451 00:14:59,366 --> 00:15:01,766 WHY ARE WOMEN AND PAY EQUITY IS 452 00:15:01,766 --> 00:15:04,666 NOT ADVANCING AS WE THOUGHT IT 453 00:15:04,666 --> 00:15:05,333 WOULD? 454 00:15:05,333 --> 00:15:07,066 >> IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT THE 455 00:15:07,066 --> 00:15:07,700 ROOT IS. 456 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:08,633 BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY 457 00:15:08,633 --> 00:15:09,633 DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT ARE 458 00:15:09,633 --> 00:15:11,266 PLAYING INTO IT. 459 00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:12,333 I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT 460 00:15:12,333 --> 00:15:13,933 I'M TRYING TO DO FOR MYSELF IS 461 00:15:13,933 --> 00:15:15,333 SAYING OK WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN 462 00:15:15,333 --> 00:15:17,100 THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS NOT 463 00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:17,433 WORKED. 464 00:15:17,433 --> 00:15:18,733 AND THAT IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT 465 00:15:18,733 --> 00:15:20,233 IT'S WORKED SIGNIFICANTLY AND 466 00:15:20,233 --> 00:15:24,133 GOTTEN US FAR. 467 00:15:24,133 --> 00:15:25,266 BUT WE MIGHT WANT TO THINK OF A 468 00:15:25,266 --> 00:15:26,700 NEW TRAGEDY TO TAKE US TO THE 469 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:27,566 NEXT LEVEL. 470 00:15:27,566 --> 00:15:29,300 THAT IS WHERE I THINK A LOT OF 471 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,966 THE EFFORTS THAT I'M TRYING TO 472 00:15:32,966 --> 00:15:33,266 MAKE. 473 00:15:33,266 --> 00:15:34,066 IT'S ALWAYS HARD WHEN YOU ARE 474 00:15:34,066 --> 00:15:35,366 TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS TO SAY IS 475 00:15:35,366 --> 00:15:39,166 IT THE RE7 OR THE INCREASE. 476 00:15:39,166 --> 00:15:41,866 BUT WE KNOW IN MINNEAPOLIS AND 477 00:15:41,866 --> 00:15:44,966 DETROIT AND VIRGINIA WE HAVE HAD 478 00:15:44,966 --> 00:15:47,433 AN INCREASE OF CONVERSATIONS 479 00:15:47,433 --> 00:15:49,200 AROUND FGM AND WE'RE TRYING TO 480 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,100 RAISE THE AWARENESS HOW MUCH -- 481 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,100 IT'S BEYOND PHYSICAL ABUSE. 482 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:56,766 IT COMPLETELY DISCONNECTS A 483 00:15:56,766 --> 00:15:57,866 WOMAN FROM HER BODY AND THERE 484 00:15:57,866 --> 00:15:59,200 ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES OF 485 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,033 PRACTICES THAT DO THAT. 486 00:16:02,033 --> 00:16:02,566 WE'RE LAUNCHING THE 487 00:16:02,566 --> 00:16:04,133 CONVERSATIONS AND AGAIN WE'RE 488 00:16:04,133 --> 00:16:05,133 TRYING TO DO IT FROM A SEX 489 00:16:05,133 --> 00:16:06,533 POSITIVE ANGLE. 490 00:16:06,533 --> 00:16:10,433 BUT ALL 100% USING ISLAMIC 491 00:16:10,433 --> 00:16:10,933 FRAMEWORK. 492 00:16:10,933 --> 00:16:12,666 SO IT'S ALL BASED ON THE QURAN. 493 00:16:12,666 --> 00:16:15,300 WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT REVIVAL OR 494 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:18,100 REINTERPRETATION, THE ARGUMENT 495 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:19,700 IS IT'S THERE WE JUST DON'T KNOW 496 00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:21,133 OUR OWN RELIGION. 497 00:16:21,133 --> 00:16:25,133 >> WHAT INFLUENCE IS THE TRUMP 498 00:16:25,133 --> 00:16:29,066 PRESIDENCY HAVING ON WHERE 499 00:16:29,066 --> 00:16:31,500 ISLAMIC GIRLS IN THE UNITED 500 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:33,400 STATES ARE GOING? 501 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,100 IS IT PUSHING THEM BACK? 502 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:38,700 IS IT MAKING THEM MILITANTS 503 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:41,266 MOVING FORWARD? 504 00:16:41,266 --> 00:16:42,233 >> IT IS A COMBINATION. 505 00:16:42,233 --> 00:16:43,966 IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY. 506 00:16:43,966 --> 00:16:45,166 BUT I THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING 507 00:16:45,166 --> 00:16:46,966 THAT WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING 508 00:16:46,966 --> 00:16:47,266 WITH. 509 00:16:47,266 --> 00:16:48,833 YOU HAVE AS WITH MOST SOCIAL 510 00:16:48,833 --> 00:16:50,266 MOVEMENTS THE MUSLIM WOMEN ARE 511 00:16:50,266 --> 00:16:55,300 AT THE FRONTLINES, CARRYING THE 512 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:57,366 FLAG OF THE COMMUNITY AS A 513 00:16:57,366 --> 00:16:57,766 WHOLE. 514 00:16:57,766 --> 00:17:00,000 WHICH DOES NOT YOU KNOW, IS NOT 515 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,300 DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE SAW IN 516 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:04,633 UP AT THE FRONTLINES. 517 00:17:04,633 --> 00:17:06,000 BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NEVER A 518 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,633 GUARANTEE TO DECISION MAKING OR 519 00:17:07,633 --> 00:17:12,433 CHANGE ON A MORE DAY-TO-DAY 520 00:17:12,433 --> 00:17:12,733 LEVEL. 521 00:17:12,733 --> 00:17:15,400 SO PATRIARCH LOVES FEMALE 522 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:15,733 MASCOTS. 523 00:17:15,733 --> 00:17:18,333 AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF 524 00:17:18,333 --> 00:17:20,500 THAT SIDE AS WELL. 525 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,066 ON THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, I WORRY 526 00:17:24,066 --> 00:17:26,733 BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE MOSQUE THAT 527 00:17:26,733 --> 00:17:28,133 I GO TO WHERE THIS YOUNG WOMAN 528 00:17:28,133 --> 00:17:30,066 WAS KILLED, THE QUESTION IS: DO 529 00:17:30,066 --> 00:17:33,700 WE BRING BACK MALE COMPANION? 530 00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:35,466 HOW DO WE -- 531 00:17:35,466 --> 00:17:36,833 YOU HAVE SELF-DEFENSE CLASSES 532 00:17:36,833 --> 00:17:38,000 THAT ARE BEING OFFERED WHICH 533 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,233 WORRIES ME BECAUSE ONE OF THE 534 00:17:40,233 --> 00:17:41,366 THINGS I DO WHEN I DO HOSTILE 535 00:17:41,366 --> 00:17:42,366 ENVIRONMENT TRAINING IS WARN 536 00:17:42,366 --> 00:17:43,633 WOMEN NOT TO HAVE A FALSE SENSE 537 00:17:43,633 --> 00:17:44,833 OF CONFIDENCE. 538 00:17:44,833 --> 00:17:46,333 SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS MORE 539 00:17:46,333 --> 00:17:48,000 IMPORTANT THAN THINKING THAT YOU 540 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,300 CAN ATTACK. 541 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:51,766 THE ISSUES I NEVER THOUGHT WE 542 00:17:51,766 --> 00:17:54,100 WOULD HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS IN 543 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:55,200 AMERICA AND LEADING TRAINING FOR 544 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,133 YOUNG WOMEN ON THAT. 545 00:17:58,133 --> 00:18:00,200 LIKE WHEN I FIRST WAS LOOKING AT 546 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,466 ACROSS RED LINES MY DREAM WAS TO 547 00:18:02,466 --> 00:18:04,166 LEAP FORWARD. 548 00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:06,766 AND I'M FINDING US BARELY ABLE 549 00:18:06,766 --> 00:18:09,033 TO KEEP STATUS QUO. 550 00:18:09,033 --> 00:18:10,833 >> THAT IS REALLY SAD TO HEAR. 551 00:18:10,833 --> 00:18:13,533 BUT OBVIOUSLY IT'S HAPPENING IN 552 00:18:13,533 --> 00:18:15,266 MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. 553 00:18:15,266 --> 00:18:15,800 >> ABSOLUTELY. 554 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,366 >> NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT ISIS. 555 00:18:17,366 --> 00:18:21,133 SO YOU WERE RECRUITED ON-LINE BY 556 00:18:21,133 --> 00:18:23,266 A PREDECESSOR TO ISIS WHEN YOU 557 00:18:23,266 --> 00:18:26,266 WERE A TEENAGER IN THE 90s. 558 00:18:26,266 --> 00:18:29,000 TELL ME ABOUT THIS. 559 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,700 AND NOW THAT THEY ARE LOSING 560 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:32,800 CONTROL, LOSING GROUND, 561 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,266 LITERALLY, IN SYRIA AND OTHER 562 00:18:35,266 --> 00:18:38,300 PLACES, AND ESTIMATES I'VE HEARD 563 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:39,933 ESTIMATES THAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE 564 00:18:39,933 --> 00:18:42,766 SHRINKING, IS THIS TRUE IN TERMS 565 00:18:42,766 --> 00:18:45,000 OF THEIR ON-LINE RECRUITMENT? 566 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,700 >> I MEAN -- 567 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:47,666 >> AND ESPECIALLY OF GIRLS. 568 00:18:47,666 --> 00:18:50,700 >> ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS IS IN 569 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:53,366 THE 90s I WAS ON RELAY CHAT 570 00:18:53,366 --> 00:18:55,266 AND YOU WOULD FIND THE CHATROOMS 571 00:18:55,266 --> 00:18:58,200 AND THERE WAS I THINK IT WOULD 572 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,466 BE ENGAGEMENT NEVER USE 573 00:18:59,466 --> 00:19:01,266 RECRUITMENT WHERE THEY WERE 574 00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:05,633 ENGAGING AND BUILDING AND THEY 575 00:19:05,633 --> 00:19:06,633 ARE 20 YEARS AHEAD. 576 00:19:06,633 --> 00:19:08,766 THEY ARE NOT THINKING AND THE 577 00:19:08,766 --> 00:19:11,466 THEY SHIFTS AND CHANGES. 578 00:19:11,466 --> 00:19:12,666 I COMPARE IT TO A VIRUS THAT 579 00:19:12,666 --> 00:19:14,433 MUTATES AND GETS STRONGER AND 580 00:19:14,433 --> 00:19:16,833 BARBARIC IN DIFFERENT FORMS BUT 581 00:19:16,833 --> 00:19:18,400 DIFFERENT GRIEVANCES HAVE BEEN 582 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,766 AROUND FOR A LONGTIME. 583 00:19:22,766 --> 00:19:25,000 AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT MY 584 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,033 THEORY IS THAT AS THEY LOSE 585 00:19:26,033 --> 00:19:27,533 TERRITORY THEY GO BACK TO THE 586 00:19:27,533 --> 00:19:29,300 ON-LINE AND CYBER RECRUITMENTS 587 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:29,900 MORE STRONGLY. 588 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:33,166 AND WHAT I'VE SEEN IS IT'S MUCH 589 00:19:33,166 --> 00:19:35,000 MORE TARGETED TOWARDS WOMEN AND 590 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,166 EMPOWERING FORM TOWARDS WOMEN. 591 00:19:37,166 --> 00:19:39,000 THEY HAVE WOMEN WHO ARE GENERALS 592 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,266 LEADING BRIGADES. 593 00:19:40,266 --> 00:19:42,033 AND THEY HAVE WOMEN THAT ARE 594 00:19:42,033 --> 00:19:44,566 BEING CALLED INTO THE MOTHERS OF 595 00:19:44,566 --> 00:19:47,666 THE BELIEVERS TO HAVE YOU COULD 596 00:19:47,666 --> 00:19:50,133 BE THE MOTHER OF THE NEXT 597 00:19:50,133 --> 00:19:51,066 SULTAN. 598 00:19:51,066 --> 00:19:52,400 IT IS AN INDICATION THAT THEY 599 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,733 ARE PLANNING 15-20 YEARS AHEAD. 600 00:19:54,733 --> 00:19:56,333 THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT RAISING 601 00:19:56,333 --> 00:19:58,633 THE NEXT GENERATION OF WARRIORS 602 00:19:58,633 --> 00:20:00,866 NOT JUST ABOUT FIGHTING THIS 603 00:20:00,866 --> 00:20:01,133 WAR. 604 00:20:01,133 --> 00:20:02,966 AND THIS IS ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE 605 00:20:02,966 --> 00:20:06,166 WHEN IT'S IDEOLOGICAL WARFARE. 606 00:20:06,166 --> 00:20:08,033 >> AND WE'VE SEEN MANY THOUSANDS 607 00:20:08,033 --> 00:20:11,166 OF EXAMPLES OF YOUNG GIRLS BEING 608 00:20:11,166 --> 00:20:13,066 RECRUITED TO ISIS AND SOME OF 609 00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:15,833 THEM LATER BEING ABLE TO ESCAPE. 610 00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:18,933 BUT WHAT WOULD MAKE A YOUNG 611 00:20:18,933 --> 00:20:24,000 ISLAMIC GIRL WANT TO JOIN? 612 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,466 >> IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I UNPACKED 613 00:20:25,466 --> 00:20:27,333 IN THE ARTICLE I WAS WRITING ON 614 00:20:27,333 --> 00:20:28,900 CNN BECAUSE I WAS HAVING A HARD 615 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,300 TIME ASKING THAT QUESTION 616 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,866 ESPECIALLY AFTER THE INTERVIEWS. 617 00:20:32,866 --> 00:20:36,800 IT IS SUCH A BARBARIC FORM OF 618 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:37,133 LIVING. 619 00:20:37,133 --> 00:20:38,800 SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME 620 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,066 OUT ONE FROM THE RECRUITMENT AND 621 00:20:41,066 --> 00:20:42,733 THE WOMEN MAKING THE ARGUMENT, 622 00:20:42,733 --> 00:20:45,633 IF YOU ARE IN A SMALL VILLAGE IN 623 00:20:45,633 --> 00:20:48,500 NORTHERN IRAQ OR SOME REMOTE 624 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:50,233 AREA AND YOU HAVE NO DECISION 625 00:20:50,233 --> 00:20:52,266 MAKING CAPACITY ABOUT YOUR LIFE, 626 00:20:52,266 --> 00:20:53,400 WHO YOU MARRY, WHO YOU GO TO 627 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,300 SCHOOL AND YOU SEE THIS VIDEO 628 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:57,500 WHERE YOU ARE NOT ONLY GOING TO 629 00:20:57,500 --> 00:20:59,966 HAVE A DECISION YOU WILL BE IN 630 00:20:59,966 --> 00:21:00,300 CONTROL. 631 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:01,333 AND IN SOME CASES THEY ARE 632 00:21:01,333 --> 00:21:02,533 LEADING MEN. 633 00:21:02,533 --> 00:21:04,066 AND SO WHICH LIFE ARE YOU GOING 634 00:21:04,066 --> 00:21:06,833 TO CHOOSE? 635 00:21:06,833 --> 00:21:08,533 AND THAT ANGLE OF EMPOWERMENT IS 636 00:21:08,533 --> 00:21:10,333 AN ANGLE WE CONTINUOUSLY MISS 637 00:21:10,333 --> 00:21:11,866 AND WE ARE GREAT AT DESCRIBING 638 00:21:11,866 --> 00:21:14,533 WOMEN AS THE VICTIMS AND NOT IN 639 00:21:14,533 --> 00:21:16,166 ANY EMPOWERING WAY. 640 00:21:16,166 --> 00:21:18,166 BUT WE AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE 641 00:21:18,166 --> 00:21:19,600 ROLE AS VICTIM. 642 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,333 WE MISS THE ROLE AS 643 00:21:21,333 --> 00:21:21,766 PERPETRATORS. 644 00:21:21,766 --> 00:21:24,266 AND ISIS HAS DEFINITELY FULLY 645 00:21:24,266 --> 00:21:27,366 AWARE AND PLAYING UP THE ROLE AS 646 00:21:27,366 --> 00:21:28,866 PERPETRATOR TO CONTROL. 647 00:21:28,866 --> 00:21:30,733 WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE WE WERE 648 00:21:30,733 --> 00:21:31,733 TALKING ABOUT HOW THE DAY-TO-DAY 649 00:21:31,733 --> 00:21:37,700 LIFE IS FOR A WOMAN THEN IT 650 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:39,800 BECOMES A MORE TEMPTING PACKAGE. 651 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,200 AND IN MOST CASES THE WOMEN 652 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,166 CHOOSE THE MEN RECRUITING. 653 00:21:44,166 --> 00:21:45,400 THEY CHOOSE WHO THEY MARRY IT'S 654 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,100 NOT THE OPPOSITE. 655 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:47,600 >> SERIOUSLY? 656 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,233 WOMEN CHOOSE THE MEN IN ISIS? 657 00:21:51,233 --> 00:21:54,033 THE MEN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE. 658 00:21:54,033 --> 00:21:55,333 >> YOU CAN STILL CHOOSE TO BE A 659 00:21:55,333 --> 00:21:57,333 SECOND OR A THIRD WIFE. 660 00:21:57,333 --> 00:22:00,100 AND AGAIN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE 661 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:01,366 IT'S NOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT 662 00:22:01,366 --> 00:22:02,900 WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY OF 663 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:04,233 THE WHORE AND THE MADONNA. 664 00:22:04,233 --> 00:22:06,266 THEY HAVE THE SEX SLAVES AND 665 00:22:06,266 --> 00:22:09,200 THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE BARBARIC 666 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,633 ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE MOST 667 00:22:10,633 --> 00:22:12,300 HEINOUS WAYS. 668 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:13,800 THEY USE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A 669 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,733 WAY OF BREAKING COMMUNITIES AND 670 00:22:16,733 --> 00:22:18,300 THEY HAVE A STRATEGY HOW DO YOU 671 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,833 DEAL WITH THE MADONNA AND THE 672 00:22:20,833 --> 00:22:23,266 ULTIMATE, THE HIGHEST WOMAN. 673 00:22:23,266 --> 00:22:24,366 FROM THE INTERVIEWS THEY ARE 674 00:22:24,366 --> 00:22:26,466 LIVING IN PALACES. 675 00:22:26,466 --> 00:22:27,866 THEY HAVE ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT 676 00:22:27,866 --> 00:22:28,433 YOU CAN IMAGINE. 677 00:22:28,433 --> 00:22:29,766 THEY ARE TREATED LIKE WIVES OF 678 00:22:29,766 --> 00:22:30,100 SULTAN. 679 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:32,900 WHAT WHAT HAPPENS THEY WILL SAY 680 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,200 THIS IS THE GROOM I WANT LIKE I 681 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,500 WANT TO BE THE WIFE OF THIS 682 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:37,833 GENERAL. 683 00:22:37,833 --> 00:22:40,933 AND ONE OR TWO WIVES, MOST OF 684 00:22:40,933 --> 00:22:42,866 THE RECRUITMENT VIDEOS THE 685 00:22:42,866 --> 00:22:44,666 POSTERS THAT THEY HAVE ARE JUST 686 00:22:44,666 --> 00:22:45,066 FRIGHTENING. 687 00:22:45,066 --> 00:22:46,966 BUT IT IS A VERY MUCH PROMOTING 688 00:22:46,966 --> 00:22:49,966 FOUR WIVES AT THE OPPORTUNITY 689 00:22:49,966 --> 00:22:52,100 MALL AND THEY HAVE A DIAGRAM ONE 690 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:55,266 WIFE TWO KIDS. 691 00:22:55,266 --> 00:22:58,866 AND THE TOP OF THE POSTER IS 692 00:22:58,866 --> 00:23:00,166 HELP US BUILD THE COMMUNITY. 693 00:23:00,166 --> 00:23:02,866 >> BUT I'VE ALSO READ WITH THE 694 00:23:02,866 --> 00:23:04,566 YOUNG MEN THEY DO NOT WANT THEM 695 00:23:04,566 --> 00:23:06,966 TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN 696 00:23:06,966 --> 00:23:08,633 BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE THEM WANT 697 00:23:08,633 --> 00:23:10,366 TO RISK THEIR LIVES ON THE FIELD 698 00:23:10,366 --> 00:23:13,466 OF BATTLE LESS SO. 699 00:23:13,466 --> 00:23:15,400 >> IT'S DIFFERENT STRATEGIES. 700 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,933 IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CREATE THE 701 00:23:18,933 --> 00:23:20,700 DIFFERENT WIVES OF THE SULTAN 702 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:21,733 THEN YOU WILL BE MARRYING THEM 703 00:23:21,733 --> 00:23:23,800 TO YOUR TOP GENERALS NOT THE 704 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,433 YOUNG BOYS FIGHTING THE FIGHT OR 705 00:23:25,433 --> 00:23:26,333 THE SUICIDE BOMBERS. 706 00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:29,766 BECAUSE THE GOAL IS 707 00:23:29,766 --> 00:23:30,200 REPRODUCTION. 708 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,200 SO, YES, IT IS A DIFFERENCE. 709 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,100 >> ARE THEY REPRODUCING? 710 00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:37,166 YOU ARE SAYING ESSENTIALLY THAT 711 00:23:37,166 --> 00:23:39,533 ISIS IS STILL 20 YEARS AHEAD OF 712 00:23:39,533 --> 00:23:41,600 US WHEN IT COMES TO ON-LINE 713 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,500 RECRUITMENT AND KEEPING BUILDING 714 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:45,533 THEIR NUMBERS. 715 00:23:45,533 --> 00:23:46,733 >> I THINK WHAT -- 716 00:23:46,733 --> 00:23:48,833 IT'S HARD BECAUSE AGAIN WHAT 717 00:23:48,833 --> 00:23:50,200 MIGHT END UP IN 20 YEARS MIGHT 718 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,200 BE A COMPLETE ISIS MIGHT BE THE 719 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,800 MODERATE THE SAME WAY THAT 720 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,333 PEOPLE NOW LOOK AT AL-QAEDA AND 721 00:23:56,333 --> 00:23:58,000 TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE VALUES 722 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,866 AND PRINCIPLES THAT THEY LED BY. 723 00:23:59,866 --> 00:24:02,100 WHO THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A 724 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:02,600 CONVERSATION? 725 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,133 MY WORRY IS WE ARE MOVING 726 00:24:04,133 --> 00:24:06,866 TOWARDS MORE AND MORE EXTREME 727 00:24:06,866 --> 00:24:07,466 FORMS. 728 00:24:07,466 --> 00:24:09,533 AND SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T 729 00:24:09,533 --> 00:24:12,766 NECESSARILY THINK IT WILL BE 730 00:24:12,766 --> 00:24:14,633 ISIS IN 20 YEARS. 731 00:24:14,633 --> 00:24:17,100 >> I WISH YOU ALL GOOD LUCK IN 732 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:18,900 EDUCATING YOUNG ISLAMIC GIRLS 733 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,300 ABOUT SEX AND ABOUT THEIR RIGHT 734 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:22,800 TO ENJOY SEX. 735 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,500 THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO 736 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:25,133 THE CONTRARY. 737 00:24:25,133 --> 00:24:27,166 PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER 738 00:24:27,166 --> 00:24:31,733 @BONNIEERBE OR TO THE CONTRARY 739 00:24:31,733 --> 00:24:33,366 AND GO TO OUR WEBSITE WHICH IS 740 00:24:33,366 --> 00:24:36,400 PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY AND 741 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,500 WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO 742 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:40,266 THE CONTRARY, PLEASE JOIN US 743 00:24:40,266 --> 00:24:49,933 NEXT TIME. 744 00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:50,066 [♪♪♪♪] 745 00:24:50,066 --> 00:25:29,066 FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN 746 00:25:29,066 --> 00:25:30,700 ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE 747 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:33,466 OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR 748 00:25:33,466 --> 00:25:39,133 WEBSITE AT 749 00:25:34,333 --> 00:25:38,333 PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.