>> SO YOU ARE A FEMINIST.
HOW DOES THAT GO OVER IN THE
MUSLIM WORLD?
>> SO I USUALLY DON'T'S START
WITH THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO
USE THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF
BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT WE OWN A WORD THAT UNITES
US.
BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE
ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN
AND THE FIRST PERSON TO ENTER
ISLAM WAS A WOMAN.
WHEN THE QURAN WAS COMPILE
WILLED, AND THE TRIBES DECIDED
WHO TO GIVE IT TO, IT WAS A
WOMAN.
[♪♪♪♪]
>> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME
TO TO THE CONTRARY.
THIS WEEK, A CONVERSATION WITH
MANAL OMAR.
MANAL FOUNDED A NEW ORGANIZATION
CALLED ACROSS RED LINES AND WE
WILL BE TELLING YOU WHAT THAT IS
ABOUT AND IT'S EXCITING.
AND SHE IS ALSO A TRUMAN
NATIONAL SECURITY FELLOW.
AND SHE IS A THOUGHT LEADER WHEN
IT COMES TO ISSUES AT THE
INTERSECTION OF GENDER, EQUALITY
AND ISLAM.
WELCOME, MANAL AND FREQUENT TO
THE CONTRARY PANELIST AS WELL.
>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR
HAVING ME.
>> ACROSS RED LINES WHAT IS THAT
ABOUT?
>> IT IS A COMPANY THAT I JUST
LAUNCHED THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING
WOMEN PARTICULARLY MUSLIM WOMEN
BUT WOMEN OF FAITH IN GENERAL
WITH A SAFE SPACE TO EXPLORE
SEXUALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS LENS.
>> AND NO SUCH THING EXISTS?
>> WELL THERE'S DIFFERENT
WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE
ISLAMIC WORLD AND A LOT I'VE
BEEN WORKING WITH BUT FROM MY
OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WHEN I
WENT THROUGH MY DIVORCE I HAD
QUESTIONS ABOUT MY SEXUALITY
ABOUT MY FAITH AND MY ROLE AS A
WOMAN'S ACTIVIST WHEN IT SEEMS
LIKE THEY WERE AT CONTRADICTION
AND I LOOKED FOR WORKSHOPS AND
BOOKS AND THERE WASN'T ANYTHING.
AND IT WAS ALMOST A POINT OF
DESPERATION.
I SPENT THE LAST THREE YEARS
DOING THE RE7 FOR MYSELF.
AND THAT INSPIRED ME.
WHY DON'T I SHARE IT AND IT
LAUNCHED ACROSS RED LINES.
>> I BELIEVE THE LACK OF
CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUALITY HAS
CRIPPLED OUR COMMUNITY.
>> WHEN I ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS
YOUR IDEA ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW
SOMEONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF
MARRIAGE THEY USE WORDS LIKE
COURTING, TALKING.
>> OPEN HONEST DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
SEXUALITY IS A RED LINE THAT THE
MOST POWERFUL MUSLIM WOMEN WILL
NOT CROSS.
I WANT TO CROSS IT.
>> TELL ME ABOUT, HAVE YOU BEEN
BESIEGED WITH INQUIRES FROM
WOMEN WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE?
WHAT IS THE AVERAGE ABOUT SEX
AND SEXUALITY HERE IN THE U.S.
MUSLIM WOMEN, WHAT IS THEIR
LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE?
>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW IT'S VERY
HARD AS YOU KNOW TO SPEAK ABOUT
WOMEN AS A MONOLITH AND MUSLIM
WOMEN IN GENERAL AND ESPECIALLY
WHEN YOU COME TO AMERICAN MUSLIM
WOMEN BECAUSE THERE IS A DIVERSE
CULTURAL BACKGROUND AS WELL.
BUT OVERWHELMINGLY, IT'S JUST
VERY MALE DOMINATED
ININTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT COMES
TO ANYTHING INVOLVING WOMEN IN
ISLAM.
THERE'S BEEN STRONG SUCCESS IN
THE LAST 20 YEARS ON RAISING THE
RIGHTS ISSUES.
WHAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IS THE
CONVERSATION ON SEXUALITY FROM A
SEX POSITIVE LENS.
WE HAVE HAD GREAT ORGANIZATIONS
TACKLING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND
TACKLING SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE
MOSQUE WE HAVE HAD ORGANIZATIONS
STEP UP IN THE LAST DECADE IN
AMERICA.
AND IN THE WORLD.
BUT THAT SEX POSITIVE
CONVERSATION WHICH I ARGUE IS AN
ESSENTIAL PART OF ISLAM BECAUSE
ISLAM TALKS ABOUT HOW YOU
CONNECT TO THE DIVINE IN ALL
YOUR SENSES IS A MISSING GAP.
WHEN WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE
EXPLOITATION AND THE ABUSE, THEN
WE LOSE THE OTHER ANGLE ON
WOMEN'S ISSUES THE JOY AND THE
PLEASURE AND RESILIENCE.
MY HOPE IS WE CAN BUILD THAT
SIDE THROUGH THIS LENS ON
TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY.
>> WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE
ISLAMIC COMMUNITY IN AMERICA IS
MORE FORWARD THINKING THAN IN
NORTH AFRICA OR SOUTH ASIA?
>> I WOULD SAY THE OPPOSITE.
I WAS RAISED HERE.
I WAS TAUGHT ISLAM THROUGH THE
SYSTEM HERE.
AND VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE
AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND
I'M GRATEFUL FOR IT BECAUSE IT
GAVE ME AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY
BACKGROUND.
BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I STARTED
TRAVELING THE WORLD AND I SAW
HOW RICH AND OPEN ISLAM IS.
AND MY PERSONAL THEORY IS THAT
WE GET FROZEN IN THE TIME THAT
OUR PARENTS LEFT.
I WAS RAISED IN A 1960s
PALESTINE, WHERE IF IF YOU GO TO
PALESTINE OR WHERE PEOPLE ARE
FROM THERE IS A HUGE WIDE OF
INTERPRETATIONS A HUGE WIDE THE
WAY THE RELIGION IS PRACTICED.
HERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE ARE
FROZEN IN TIME.
>> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR
EXAMPLE THAT IN NIGERIA WHERE
BOKO HARAM IS KIDNAPPING SCHOOL
GIRLS AND GIRLS ARE NOT IN
SCHOOL ANYMORE THEIR PARENTS ARE
AFRAID TO SEND THEM HOW IS IT
POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE MORE
LIBERATED, IF YOU WILL, MORE
PROGRESSIVE THAN AMERICAN MUSLIM
WOMEN WHO ARE LAWYERS AND
DOCTORS AND UNIVERSITY
PRESIDENTS AND C.E.O.S, THAN
WHEN COMPARED WITH OTHER
COUNTRIES?
>> I WOULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN
THE INTERPRETATIONS AND THE
SCHOLARSHIP AND THE STATUS OF
WOMEN.
THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT.
WITH THE STATUS OF WOMEN JUST BY
DEFAULT OUR ACCESS TO EDUCATION
AND HEALTHCARE WE ARE ALWAYS
GOING TO BE BETTER.
I WAS LOOKING AT THE ISLAMIC
INTERPRETATION LENS AND THAT
TENDS TO BE FROZEN IN TIME.
WE DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS.
AND I THINK IN AMERICA --
>> EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN.
>> AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS IN
NIGERIA I WAS ABLE TO MEET WITH
ISLAMIC SCHOLARS FOR ACROSS RED
LINES, AND TO REALLY PUSH THEM
ON CERTAIN ISSUES THAT MAY
TROUBLE ME FROM A WOMEN'S
PERSPECTIVE.
ON THE WITNESSES OR ON WHAT ISIS
IS USING IN TERMS OF THEIR
RECRUITMENT STRATEGIES.
SO A LOT OF THE TIMES IF I HAVE
THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS HERE
WHAT I GET IS READ THE
SCHOLARSHIP THAT IS ALREADY IN
THE PAST.
WHEREAS WHAT YOU WILL FIND IN
SOME NOT IN ALL CONTEXT AND ALL
RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS BUT I HAD THE
SAME EXPERIENCE IN YEMEN IF YOU
FIND PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE
RELIGION AND THE SCRIPTURE YOU
CAN DECONSTRUCT THE LAWS.
AND THE WAY THAT SOMEONE
EXPLAINED IT TO ME WHICH WAS
BRILLIANT IS ISLAM DOESN'T
NECESSARILY NEED A REFMATION,
BECAUSE IT IS A LEGAL-BASED
SYSTEM AND THE VALUES WILL NOT
CHANGE BUT FROM THE BEGINNING
ISLAM ANTICIPATED THE LAWS TO
CHANGE.
AND THE LAWS SHOULD CHANGE WITH
PEOPLE AND THAT IS WHAT THE
SCHOLARS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE
DOING.
>> LET'S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT
HOW THAT IMPACTS THE AVERAGE
WOMAN IN THE U.S. VERSUS THE
AVERAGE WOMAN IN THE PHILIPPINES
OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN SOUTH ASIA
OR NORTH AFRICA.
MY EXPERIENCE AND I'VE BEEN TO
70 SOME ODD COUNTRIES IS THAT
WOMEN ARE WAY MORE REPRESSED IN
THEIR DAILY LIVES.
SO THAT IS WHAT I WAS GETTING
AT.
>> IN TERMS OF DAILY LIVES,
ABSOLUTELY.
I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF
THE AMMUNITION TO PUSHBACK ON
THE SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ON
SEXUALITY.
THAT AMMUNITION IS WHAT WE ARE
LACKING.
>> THE WOMEN THERE ARE TREATED
IN MANY COUNTRIES NO BETTER THAN
CHATTLE, REALLY.
>> WORSE.
>> WOMEN WERE TREATED IN
BIBLICAL TIMES.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> SO WHEN YOU --
YOU ARE A FEMINIST
>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.
>> WHEN YOU TELL PEOPLE OR SPEAK
TO AN AUDIENCE OF MUSLIMS HERE
AND OVERSEAS, HOW DO THEY TAKE
THAT?
>> SO I USUALLY DON'T START WITH
THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO USE
THE WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF
BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT WE OWN A WORD
THAT UNITES US.
BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE
ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN
AND THE FIRST PERSON TO INTER
ISLAM WAS A WOMAN THE FIRST
MARTYR WAS A WOMAN, WHEN THE
TRIBES DECIDED WHO TO GIVE IT
TO, IT WAS A WOMAN.
SO I USE THAT AS THE ENTRY POINT
WITH THE RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS
SAYING WITH THE POINT OF PRIDE
OF HOW REVOLUTIONARY ISLAM WAS
TO WOMEN.
AND USUALLY THEY GET EXCITED AND
SHARE THEIR OWN STORIES AND I
ASK THEM WHEN DID WE LOSE IT?
BECAUSE WE LOST IT?
AND THAT CAN OPEN UP THE
CONVERSATION AROUND FEMINISM AND
SEXUALITY AND THIS ARGUMENT OF
SAYING ISLAM WAS THE ORIGINAL
MOVEMENT FOR A LOT OF THESE
COMMUNITIES AND IT GOT LOST HOW
DO WE RECLAIM IT.
AND IT TAKES AWAY THE DEFENSIVE
POSTURE IN THE WORLD OF
ISLAMOPHOBIA, DEMANDING APOLOGY
IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO
IT FROM A PLACE OF PRIDE WHICH
IS HOW I RECONNECTED WITH MY
RELIGION WAS FROM THE PLACE OF
PRIDE.
>> HOW ARE YOU GETTING THE WORD
OUT?
>> JUST BASIC WORD OF MOUTH AND
TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS.
WE DID WORKSHOPS.
IN NIGERIA, THE UNIVERSITY
INVITED ME TO COME AND SPEAK.
I'M TRYING TO BE KEEN ON IT'S
DEMAND-DRIVEN.
I DO NOT GO OUT AND ADVOCATE.
I JUST PROMOTE.
I PRODUCE MATERIAL.
I HAVE A SEX COLUMN ON MUSLIM
GIRL.NET FOR YOUNG MUSLIM WOMEN
TO ACCESS.
THOSE WHO REACH OUT TO ME ARE
THOSE I RESPOND TO.
IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT IS SUCH A
SENSITIVE TOPIC NOT ONE THAT I
DO ADVOCACY AROUND.
I CREATE SAFE SPACE AND ALLOW
PEOPLE TO COME TO.
>> AND YOU WOULD SAY THAT IN
TERMS OF EVEN IN THE UNITED
STATES THE TERMS THE LEVEL OF
EDUCATION THAT MUSLIM GIRLS IN
THIS CASE ARE GETTING, ABOUT SEX
EDUCATION AND ABOUT SEX, ABOUT
THE BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS,
EVERYTHING, YOU WOULD SAY IS
LOW?
>> THE LEVEL IS VERY LOW AND IT
SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE.
AND I THINK THE BIGGEST
CHALLENGE IS THAT THE COMMUNITY
AS A WHOLE, INCLUDING OUR TOP
WOMEN LEADERS, INCLUDING ARE
FOCUSED ON FIGHTING
ISLAMOPHOBIA.
AND SO MUCH OF THE FOCUS HAS
BEEN EXTERNAL THAT WE HAVE NOT
HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE
INTERNAL GROWTH TO TAKE PLACE.
>> AND SPEAKING OF EXTERM
REACTION YOU WEAR A HEAD SCARF
ALL THE TIME.
WHAT REACTION DO YOU GET FROM
AMERICANS WHEN YOU ARE OUT AND
ABOUT?
>> I MEAN, OVERALL, IT'S BEEN
THERE'S BEEN MORE TENSE.
AS YOU PROBABLY HEARD OVER THE
SPRING THERE WAS AN ATTACK IN
OUR MOSQUE IN YOUNG MUSLIM WOMAN
WAS KILLED.
AND SO THAT HITS HOME FOR A LOT
OF US.
IT'S ALMOST --
IT ALMOST BECOMES IRRELEVANT
WHAT THE REALITY IS BECAUSE WE
ARE LIVING IN A CONSTANT FEAR.
WHY I'M TRYING TO HELP SHIFT US
AWAY FROM A PLACE OF FEAR.
IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT TIME AND
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF
CONVERSATIONS AND ONE OF THE
QUESTIONS I GET SHOULD I TAKE
OFF THE SCARF?
>> WHAT DO YOU SAY?
>> ALMOST ALL THE RESPONSES THEY
NEED TO TRUST THEMSELVES.
NOBODY CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION
EXCEPT THEMSELVES.
I HELP THEM GET IN TOUCH WITH
THEIR OWN INTUITION BECAUSE I
BELIEVE THE DIVINE SPEAKS TO US.
AND EACH WOMAN HAS A DIFFERENT
ANSWER.
>> ISN'T IT SEEN AS A RADICAL
MESSAGE BY AMERICAN MUSLIMS AND
CERTAINLY BY NOT MUSLIMS BUT
EXTREMISTS DO YOU WORRY ABOUT
ANY GETTING ATTACKED OR BY
SAYING THAT SEXUALITY SHOULD BE
ENJOYED, WOMEN SHOULD HAVE IT,
SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN SEXUALITY
AND IT IS A WAY OF GETTING IN
TOUCH WITH THE DIVINE, DOESN'T
THAT MAKE SOME MEN ANGRY?
>> I WILL BE HONEST THIS TRIP TO
NORTHERN NIGERIA AND THIS
PROJECT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE
SCARIEST THAT I'VE DONE IN A
LONGTIME.
I WAS THERE JUST RIGHT AFTER THE
BOKO HARAM GIRLS WERE RELEASED
BY BOKO HARAM.
IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME TO
BE THERE AS A SMALL WINDOW OF
OPPORTUNITY WAS OPENING UP.
BUT THIS PROJECT AND YOU KNOW
THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE WHICH
INCLUDES IRAQ, SOUTH SUBBAN THIS
IS THE ONE THAT FRIGHTENS ME THE
MOST.
I'M NOT UNAWARE OF THE CHALLENGE
THAT COMES.
AND I WOULD SAY NOT JUST MUSLIM
WOMEN BUT THE QUESTION ON WOMEN
OWNING THEIR SEXUALITY AND
AGAIN, FROM A PLACE OF
CONNECTING WITH THE DIVINE, IS A
VERY HIT ON PARTICIPATE ARKY.
I DON'T THINK IT'S ONLY MUSLIM
MEN ANYONE INVESTED IN
PATRIARCHKY WOULD BE UPSET.
>> HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH IT
IF YOU WERE THREATENED?
>> I HAVE BEEN THREATENED.
IN NORTHERN NIGERIA I WAS TOLD
YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT ROAD TRIP.
AND THEY WILL NOT DRIVE THAT
ROAD.
SO YOU KNOW, I AM AHE NOT MY
NORTHEAST ABOUT SECURITY I TAKE
SECURITY VERY SERIOUSLY.
I DO EVERY THREE YEARS HOSTILE
ENVIRONMENT TRAINING AND TAKE IT
SERIOUSLY.
I'VE LOST TOO MANY WOMEN FRIENDS
AND ALLIES TO SECURITY
SITUATIONS.
AS YOU KNOW BACK DOWN IS NOT AN
OPTION.
AND AGAIN, I REALLY WORRY THAT
WOMEN HAVE BEEN CORNERED INTO A
PLACE WHERE WE ARE JUST
FIGHTING.
AND I WANT TO BUILD THE JOY AND
THE RESILIENCE IN US AGAIN.
THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL
PARTS OF THE FEMININE AND IT
MAKES ME SAD WE ARE STUCK IN A
BATTLE WHICH I HONOR ALL THOSE
FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
I DO AS SOMEONE WHO SPENT 20
YEARS THERE AS WELL BUT IT'S
TIME FOR US TO UNPLUG FROM THE
WAR MACHINE AND CONFLICT MACHINE
AND TALK ABOUT THE POWER OF
WOMEN FROM A PLACE OF JOY.
THAT IS A HARD SELL ESPECIALLY
IN THIS DAY AND AGE BUT SOMEONE
HAS TO RING THAT BELL.
>> WHEN YOU SAY AND YOU DO SAY
WOMEN ARE GOING BACKWARD.
RATES OF FEMALE GENITAL
MUTILATION IN THE UNITED STATES
ARE GOING UP.
OBVIOUSLY WELL TEEN PREGNANCIES
TO THIS POINT HAVE BEEN GOING
DOWN.
BUT BIRTHS TO UNWED MOTHERS ARE
SKYROCKETING ALL OVER THE PLACE.
SO WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?
WHY ARE WOMEN AND PAY EQUITY IS
NOT ADVANCING AS WE THOUGHT IT
WOULD?
>> IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT THE
ROOT IS.
BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY
DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT ARE
PLAYING INTO IT.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
I'M TRYING TO DO FOR MYSELF IS
SAYING OK WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN
THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS NOT
WORKED.
AND THAT IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT
IT'S WORKED SIGNIFICANTLY AND
GOTTEN US FAR.
BUT WE MIGHT WANT TO THINK OF A
NEW TRAGEDY TO TAKE US TO THE
NEXT LEVEL.
THAT IS WHERE I THINK A LOT OF
THE EFFORTS THAT I'M TRYING TO
MAKE.
IT'S ALWAYS HARD WHEN YOU ARE
TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS TO SAY IS
IT THE RE7 OR THE INCREASE.
BUT WE KNOW IN MINNEAPOLIS AND
DETROIT AND VIRGINIA WE HAVE HAD
AN INCREASE OF CONVERSATIONS
AROUND FGM AND WE'RE TRYING TO
RAISE THE AWARENESS HOW MUCH --
IT'S BEYOND PHYSICAL ABUSE.
IT COMPLETELY DISCONNECTS A
WOMAN FROM HER BODY AND THERE
ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES OF
PRACTICES THAT DO THAT.
WE'RE LAUNCHING THE
CONVERSATIONS AND AGAIN WE'RE
TRYING TO DO IT FROM A SEX
POSITIVE ANGLE.
BUT ALL 100% USING ISLAMIC
FRAMEWORK.
SO IT'S ALL BASED ON THE QURAN.
WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT REVIVAL OR
REINTERPRETATION, THE ARGUMENT
IS IT'S THERE WE JUST DON'T KNOW
OUR OWN RELIGION.
>> WHAT INFLUENCE IS THE TRUMP
PRESIDENCY HAVING ON WHERE
ISLAMIC GIRLS IN THE UNITED
STATES ARE GOING?
IS IT PUSHING THEM BACK?
IS IT MAKING THEM MILITANTS
MOVING FORWARD?
>> IT IS A COMBINATION.
IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY.
BUT I THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING
THAT WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING
WITH.
YOU HAVE AS WITH MOST SOCIAL
MOVEMENTS THE MUSLIM WOMEN ARE
AT THE FRONTLINES, CARRYING THE
FLAG OF THE COMMUNITY AS A
WHOLE.
WHICH DOES NOT YOU KNOW, IS NOT
DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE SAW IN
UP AT THE FRONTLINES.
BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NEVER A
GUARANTEE TO DECISION MAKING OR
CHANGE ON A MORE DAY-TO-DAY
LEVEL.
SO PATRIARCH LOVES FEMALE
MASCOTS.
AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF
THAT SIDE AS WELL.
ON THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, I WORRY
BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE MOSQUE THAT
I GO TO WHERE THIS YOUNG WOMAN
WAS KILLED, THE QUESTION IS: DO
WE BRING BACK MALE COMPANION?
HOW DO WE --
YOU HAVE SELF-DEFENSE CLASSES
THAT ARE BEING OFFERED WHICH
WORRIES ME BECAUSE ONE OF THE
THINGS I DO WHEN I DO HOSTILE
ENVIRONMENT TRAINING IS WARN
WOMEN NOT TO HAVE A FALSE SENSE
OF CONFIDENCE.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS MORE
IMPORTANT THAN THINKING THAT YOU
CAN ATTACK.
THE ISSUES I NEVER THOUGHT WE
WOULD HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS IN
AMERICA AND LEADING TRAINING FOR
YOUNG WOMEN ON THAT.
LIKE WHEN I FIRST WAS LOOKING AT
ACROSS RED LINES MY DREAM WAS TO
LEAP FORWARD.
AND I'M FINDING US BARELY ABLE
TO KEEP STATUS QUO.
>> THAT IS REALLY SAD TO HEAR.
BUT OBVIOUSLY IT'S HAPPENING IN
MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT ISIS.
SO YOU WERE RECRUITED ON-LINE BY
A PREDECESSOR TO ISIS WHEN YOU
WERE A TEENAGER IN THE 90s.
TELL ME ABOUT THIS.
AND NOW THAT THEY ARE LOSING
CONTROL, LOSING GROUND,
LITERALLY, IN SYRIA AND OTHER
PLACES, AND ESTIMATES I'VE HEARD
ESTIMATES THAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE
SHRINKING, IS THIS TRUE IN TERMS
OF THEIR ON-LINE RECRUITMENT?
>> I MEAN --
>> AND ESPECIALLY OF GIRLS.
>> ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS IS IN
THE 90s I WAS ON RELAY CHAT
AND YOU WOULD FIND THE CHATROOMS
AND THERE WAS I THINK IT WOULD
BE ENGAGEMENT NEVER USE
RECRUITMENT WHERE THEY WERE
ENGAGING AND BUILDING AND THEY
ARE 20 YEARS AHEAD.
THEY ARE NOT THINKING AND THE
THEY SHIFTS AND CHANGES.
I COMPARE IT TO A VIRUS THAT
MUTATES AND GETS STRONGER AND
BARBARIC IN DIFFERENT FORMS BUT
DIFFERENT GRIEVANCES HAVE BEEN
AROUND FOR A LONGTIME.
AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT MY
THEORY IS THAT AS THEY LOSE
TERRITORY THEY GO BACK TO THE
ON-LINE AND CYBER RECRUITMENTS
MORE STRONGLY.
AND WHAT I'VE SEEN IS IT'S MUCH
MORE TARGETED TOWARDS WOMEN AND
EMPOWERING FORM TOWARDS WOMEN.
THEY HAVE WOMEN WHO ARE GENERALS
LEADING BRIGADES.
AND THEY HAVE WOMEN THAT ARE
BEING CALLED INTO THE MOTHERS OF
THE BELIEVERS TO HAVE YOU COULD
BE THE MOTHER OF THE NEXT
SULTAN.
IT IS AN INDICATION THAT THEY
ARE PLANNING 15-20 YEARS AHEAD.
THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT RAISING
THE NEXT GENERATION OF WARRIORS
NOT JUST ABOUT FIGHTING THIS
WAR.
AND THIS IS ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE
WHEN IT'S IDEOLOGICAL WARFARE.
>> AND WE'VE SEEN MANY THOUSANDS
OF EXAMPLES OF YOUNG GIRLS BEING
RECRUITED TO ISIS AND SOME OF
THEM LATER BEING ABLE TO ESCAPE.
BUT WHAT WOULD MAKE A YOUNG
ISLAMIC GIRL WANT TO JOIN?
>> IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I UNPACKED
IN THE ARTICLE I WAS WRITING ON
CNN BECAUSE I WAS HAVING A HARD
TIME ASKING THAT QUESTION
ESPECIALLY AFTER THE INTERVIEWS.
IT IS SUCH A BARBARIC FORM OF
LIVING.
SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME
OUT ONE FROM THE RECRUITMENT AND
THE WOMEN MAKING THE ARGUMENT,
IF YOU ARE IN A SMALL VILLAGE IN
NORTHERN IRAQ OR SOME REMOTE
AREA AND YOU HAVE NO DECISION
MAKING CAPACITY ABOUT YOUR LIFE,
WHO YOU MARRY, WHO YOU GO TO
SCHOOL AND YOU SEE THIS VIDEO
WHERE YOU ARE NOT ONLY GOING TO
HAVE A DECISION YOU WILL BE IN
CONTROL.
AND IN SOME CASES THEY ARE
LEADING MEN.
AND SO WHICH LIFE ARE YOU GOING
TO CHOOSE?
AND THAT ANGLE OF EMPOWERMENT IS
AN ANGLE WE CONTINUOUSLY MISS
AND WE ARE GREAT AT DESCRIBING
WOMEN AS THE VICTIMS AND NOT IN
ANY EMPOWERING WAY.
BUT WE AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE
ROLE AS VICTIM.
WE MISS THE ROLE AS
PERPETRATORS.
AND ISIS HAS DEFINITELY FULLY
AWARE AND PLAYING UP THE ROLE AS
PERPETRATOR TO CONTROL.
WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT HOW THE DAY-TO-DAY
LIFE IS FOR A WOMAN THEN IT
BECOMES A MORE TEMPTING PACKAGE.
AND IN MOST CASES THE WOMEN
CHOOSE THE MEN RECRUITING.
THEY CHOOSE WHO THEY MARRY IT'S
NOT THE OPPOSITE.
>> SERIOUSLY?
WOMEN CHOOSE THE MEN IN ISIS?
THE MEN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE.
>> YOU CAN STILL CHOOSE TO BE A
SECOND OR A THIRD WIFE.
AND AGAIN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE
IT'S NOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT
WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY OF
THE WHORE AND THE MADONNA.
THEY HAVE THE SEX SLAVES AND
THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE BARBARIC
ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE MOST
HEINOUS WAYS.
THEY USE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A
WAY OF BREAKING COMMUNITIES AND
THEY HAVE A STRATEGY HOW DO YOU
DEAL WITH THE MADONNA AND THE
ULTIMATE, THE HIGHEST WOMAN.
FROM THE INTERVIEWS THEY ARE
LIVING IN PALACES.
THEY HAVE ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT
YOU CAN IMAGINE.
THEY ARE TREATED LIKE WIVES OF
SULTAN.
WHAT WHAT HAPPENS THEY WILL SAY
THIS IS THE GROOM I WANT LIKE I
WANT TO BE THE WIFE OF THIS
GENERAL.
AND ONE OR TWO WIVES, MOST OF
THE RECRUITMENT VIDEOS THE
POSTERS THAT THEY HAVE ARE JUST
FRIGHTENING.
BUT IT IS A VERY MUCH PROMOTING
FOUR WIVES AT THE OPPORTUNITY
MALL AND THEY HAVE A DIAGRAM ONE
WIFE TWO KIDS.
AND THE TOP OF THE POSTER IS
HELP US BUILD THE COMMUNITY.
>> BUT I'VE ALSO READ WITH THE
YOUNG MEN THEY DO NOT WANT THEM
TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN
BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE THEM WANT
TO RISK THEIR LIVES ON THE FIELD
OF BATTLE LESS SO.
>> IT'S DIFFERENT STRATEGIES.
IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CREATE THE
DIFFERENT WIVES OF THE SULTAN
THEN YOU WILL BE MARRYING THEM
TO YOUR TOP GENERALS NOT THE
YOUNG BOYS FIGHTING THE FIGHT OR
THE SUICIDE BOMBERS.
BECAUSE THE GOAL IS
REPRODUCTION.
SO, YES, IT IS A DIFFERENCE.
>> ARE THEY REPRODUCING?
YOU ARE SAYING ESSENTIALLY THAT
ISIS IS STILL 20 YEARS AHEAD OF
US WHEN IT COMES TO ON-LINE
RECRUITMENT AND KEEPING BUILDING
THEIR NUMBERS.
>> I THINK WHAT --
IT'S HARD BECAUSE AGAIN WHAT
MIGHT END UP IN 20 YEARS MIGHT
BE A COMPLETE ISIS MIGHT BE THE
MODERATE THE SAME WAY THAT
PEOPLE NOW LOOK AT AL-QAEDA AND
TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE VALUES
AND PRINCIPLES THAT THEY LED BY.
WHO THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A
CONVERSATION?
MY WORRY IS WE ARE MOVING
TOWARDS MORE AND MORE EXTREME
FORMS.
AND SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T
NECESSARILY THINK IT WILL BE
ISIS IN 20 YEARS.
>> I WISH YOU ALL GOOD LUCK IN
EDUCATING YOUNG ISLAMIC GIRLS
ABOUT SEX AND ABOUT THEIR RIGHT
TO ENJOY SEX.
THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO
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