- Hello, I'm Donovan brown, and for the next half hour, we'll talk with a panel of artists and historians about the film you just watched 'The Neutral Ground'.
And we'll talk about some of the important questions the film raises, stay tuned for 'The Neutral Ground Townhall Discussion' next.
- [Narrator 1] Fundings for this program is provided by POV, The Community Foundation of Greater Chattanooga and Grandview Foundation.
(upbeat music) - Thank you for joining us for this Townhall discussion about 'The Neutral Ground'.
I'm Donovan Brown, and we've invited a fascinating group of people to speak to some of the themes in this film and to offer a local perspective on the question.
What do we choose to memorialize and why.
Here's that conversation.
- To begin today, we're gonna start with our panelists by kind of coming to thinking about the main theme of this documentary which is that people can look at the same thing and see two very different understandings, two very different histories.
And in our nation, we have two quite different interpretations of our past, particularly around the Confederacy.
So what we're gonna be looking at tonight in particular, 'cause there's so much from the documentary we could be discussing, is thinking about the way in which monuments and art can possibly allow us to have conversations with each other, even when there's these fundamental disagreements over what that meaning of the past is.
So we're gonna look at a second clip and that's the one we're gonna ask you to discuss.
And in this second clip, we're gonna be thinking about our willingness to hear each other's point of views and the limitations in our abilities to do so.
And what is the role that remembrance and art and monuments can play in helping us have these conversations.
- Assume the best.
- You you've joined in to see things from my perspective, more or less.
Okay.
- Yeah.
- What could we possibly join in with you to see from your perspective the jazz Fest or something like that?
What could we do?
- We could all go to a slavery museum.
- No, there's too much.
I would never step foot on that.
You talking about that plantation?
- Yeah.
- That's so much fake crap on that thing.
- So sending this to our panelists.
How do we have these kinds of common conversations, when we have such fundamental disagreements over what we're talking about?
Are there places in our society, thinking about art and monuments, where those conversations are possible.
Where could he invite someone to come?
Or could the filmmaker invite one of these men to come with him to see his point of view that he would be willing to join him?
- It seems like that the invitation was already put out there but it was rejected.
- Mhm (affirmative) - So the question is where can we go?
It's up to each individual, to decide if they wanna be a part of that journey.
We have to in our society re-educate the way we think, about things what we've talked, we've been told, we've come a long way in the sense of more information being out there.
So you don't have to take a long trip, to a particular place to find information.
So it's really, when are we willing to let our past lie and reexamine it and then have that conversation.
- That was a section of the film that really struck me because it's this moment that you realize that there's nothing harder to shift than one's belief systems.
Like once you've come to believe something is true, there is facts and there's learning and there's opinions, but once you've embedded yourself, that something is absolutely true and everything around you supports that belief.
So this idea of the loss cause this idea of a glorified south and this purpose of heritage, once you've embedded that within yourself, to have someone challenge you and say, this isn't true, or there's more to this story, you feel like your entire belief system is being attacked.
And that's where we see this resistance and this anger and a rise of this sort of push against facts and push against other people's truths, because that would mean to have to let go of one's own beliefs and people don't want to do that.
They don't want to believe that what they believe is true.
And so that I think is the real challenge with building these, the information is there, the facts are there.
These monuments on both sides exist and the fallacies of monuments exist and has been proven.
But if people don't even want to see that, because that would have to admit a falsdy of themselves, then that's where we run into these people that say no, 'cause the offer was on the table and they had a perfect place available within, in this documentary that they could have gone to this slave museum.
And the fact that the person was a absolutely not, that's not true that says more about what he's willing to face within himself than the facts that are out there.
- So is there a role that art and monuments can play and helping us find common space?
Are we talking about creating something new?
Does it already exist where we can come with these different perspectives and actually have a conversation 'cause he didn't even suggest a particular slavery museum.
Right?
He just said a slavery museum (chuckles) and it immediately went to a particular location.
So, you know, do we have those places in our community or what would that kind of place look like?
- It's very rare to see that type of place I was thinking about.
We don't have counter monuments to those monuments.
And I was thinking about, you know, I have a couple of close friends who sort of think like that.
- [Offscreen] Yeah.
- And what I found is that it's difficult to convince people of anything but when you get to know a person that opens a door.
So there's always, now we are all human being.
So there's some common ground somewhere where people can get to know each other and start a dialogue.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
You're not trying to convince me.
But now since we are not trying to convince each other, we can hear each other.
- And Dr. Jackson, you teach the subjects and you teach two student bodies who I know as I do come in with very different understandings of the past who've been socialized in very different ways.
How are you able to help them find those kinds of common grounds?
- Well I think one of the things that's helpful is having a person of color as their instructor.
One of the things that's really interesting throughout my graduate career and even as a professor at Covenant, many of these students have never had a person of color as an instructor.
So to see that this is somebody who's competent, who's knowledgeable is really helpful.
And because they have so many sort of preconceived ideas and I think it deals with proximity.
There's very oftentimes very little proximity for a number of individuals to people of color.
And so I think that's helpful and I mean there's some people I cannot reach.
So I don't sort of put that burden on myself, but I think for a lot of students, it is the readings that we do to have the understanding that you know exposing to the things that are difficult parts of our history.
One of the things I really think is interesting, particularly as we live in the Bible Belt is how there's a real emphasis on in a Christian faith and things like that.
And you know, if you look at the Bible, they're (indistinct) there's no sort of idea that we sort of whitewash it.
Although there's some have been people who try to do that, but sort of clean it sort of make all just the good parts.
So why do we, why do people particularly in this area think, well we should just focus in on the story we wanna tell and tell of telling a full richer story.
And a story that also has some hard and difficult parts of it that we I think that are essential for us to understand.
So for me, it's exposing students to those type of things and knowing again that I don't have the burden of trying to reach everyone because that is too much of a burden for I think any one person to be able to carry.
So, so not a follow back on what we talked about with this the whole ideas behind why this is such a big issue and why people are so wetted to it.
I think because it's family, I mean in the south, there is this sense of honor and pride and very much honor culture.
And I think for so many people, it's very, very personal.
And so when you bring up these issues, you're talking about their grandmother or their grandfather and, you know, that's, you just, you don't, so it and there's, you just don't do that.
You don't criticize or you know, what happened or what is that reflection of you as a person.
So I think there's so many dynamics tied to it, but I do think it comes, it's important to have those conversations and to have that proximity to one another.
- And it can be complicated as you know, we look at society right now where we seem to think people are all good or all bad.
And when they cross the line, then we will eliminate all the work they've ever done because they've behaved inappropriately to have that kind of nuance to say, there's a lot of evil in the world and people have done horrible things who also may have done good things.
How do we develop that kind of sophistication that we can have this more complex story as a culture, where your grandparents can have done horrible things and you can still love them as your grandparents.
- Your insights are so really profound.
And I appreciate (indistinct) highlighting the need for a nuance and even and nuance might suggest that grace is important in engaging with ourselves in the world around us.
Now on to clip three.
- You're supposed to be inspired.
- This is my, maybe my favorite monument.
It's shocking in a way that makes me very uncomfortable but I also like it.
- This is my favorite place too.
Some say this too graphic.
Some say we are not doing enough.
You know, you cannot talk about out slavery and expect that everybody will be comfortable about it, but the goal is not to have people be angry or feeling guilty.
The goal is to generate that spark in the person in order to generate consciousnesses.
- When we tend to think of monuments in the country or certainly in the west, maybe even globally.
We experience them and imagine them these massive marble structures.
What we see in this clip is they're small and they are of different nature in terms of, in terms of color, maybe even material.
So how do you think monuments functioning being made and crafted in different ways can actually help bring us into the kind of conversation we spoke about moments ago.
We know the Ed Johnson Monument, the Memorial itself, is only minutes from here.
So is there attempt in the Ed Johnson Memorial Monument possibly in the mind we see at the Whitney plantation?
Is there attempt to have a shared discussion and what might that shared discussion look like?
- What I noticed about the clip, is that the art was on a human scale.
And so it didn't read as a monument to me, a monument takes the image of a human being or even an animal and blows it up, expands it to make it more than life, more than bigger than human humanity.
And so maybe we don't need monuments.
And I was thinking also we are actually living in a white supremacist monument every time I go downtown, you know, I see monuments to white supremacy.
You know, when I don't see me, people who look like me owning, you know, and so America is a monument.
I believe this system is a type of monument.
And I think last year we saw that monument, you know, clearly, you know, the capital I'm talking about the capital of deal.
So maybe what we need to do is focus on these systems that see the art celebrates, you know, these monuments in Chattanooga and all these monuments, it's it actually celebrates the culture.
So we see through these monuments, what the culture actually is, you know, this is the culture that we are living in.
- So if art has the power to invoke a sense of celebration to those who perceive it, is there perhaps some trick, some psychological power to the human skill art.
I'm curious, Isaac, what you think about the power of the image we saw from the plantation in the documentary versus the grand scale we so often see.
What's is there a power than the human in the large.
- Oh, there's always a power between size, you know, size does matter, you know, in a sense where, when a piece is created large scale it's to celebrate glorify.
When you look at it and you're looking up, you're kind of giving reverence to, when it's approachable, then it's, you have a more human reaction.
If it is smaller, you yourself have this God like power over that when you look over.
So scale does matter and artists create and use scale to invoke certain meanings and to certain feelings.
So in a sense of the monument that was at the plantation, that I would say is a monument, but it's created in the human scale to give you that reaction of empathy and feeling because now you have an object that is the same size or similar size to you.
So you can relate to it, unlike something that is very large, which you're humbled by, or very small, that you have more power over.
- So, the reenactment that they did at later in the film of that moment that's memorialized and the art piece there is that also, would you see that as a form of art, as a form of monument, as a form of moment, a nexus, how did those kinds of physical engagements impact the way we think and talk about theses histories?
- If I could, as a drama therapist, respond to that for a moment, I think what's really important.
And what comes out so beautifully in this film is the power of play to help just open up space for learning and change in this process.
And it comes in every sort of way, even from the sort of ding that happens to remind your brain every time there may be a mistruth (chuckles)in the film.
I don't know if you noticed that I noticed it.
I was like oh, he's so playful in the way that he's bringing it and it's disarming and it opens us up to go, oh, you know, maybe it's not even conscious.
That might be a mistruth (chuckles).
I heard the bell again.
And then in the same way, putting on that costume embodying and trying on a new role, I mean, it's what happens in those reenactments, the civil war reenactments about playing and who's the good side and the bad side.
And I would really challenge that we only have a dichotomy at play.
I think there are many many more perspective that we're not necessarily paying attention to when we get into those role playing and enactment and trying on, and engaging dramatically with those different things.
There's possibility that's expansive there.
And, I think, you know, I would love to see a lot more of that capacity for people to be willing.
Hey, I know you don't agree with me, but would you mind coming in and just trying on this costume for a second and then, and that's it, like, just try it on and then tell me like what that was like, you know, did you have any new thoughts?
Like, you know, let's start there and see what happens.
- I've got a quick question for Dr. Jackson before we move to our next clip in your classroom.
I imagine from time to time, you might have a student who struggles with that old truth that they've just now learned about and it threatens them.
How do you think they might negotiate that challenge, if you brought in something physical, maybe it's a small piece of art.
Maybe it's a piece of Gar for them to try and interact with, how do you think a student might, and this is something you might already do, but how do you think a student would engage that if they're struggling with new truths?
- It really depends.
I would say that for an African American to wear a uniform that was a Confederate uniform, I think would be probably a real problem for them.
I'm imagining.
So I just think it depends on the person in terms of their sort of ability to be able to really, yeah.
Just really be able 'cause the history that's there.
For an individual, I think for, particularly for individuals who are not of color, when they see maybe objects that are related to slavery, I think one of the things is and I've run this, this happened a couple times.
There's often times there's feeling of guilt.
And we had a really interesting conversation as we were talking about some recent issues related to being labeled a racist.
And I think for a lot of individuals, that is something that they really want to avoid as much a as possible.
So, if there's anything that would possibly associate them with racism, they try to avoid it as much as possible.
So I think that also feeds into why there's sometimes a reluctance to engage in some of these monuments or to really confront this history.
It has personal aspect of in terms of family, but the sort of the worst thing is to be labeled as a racist.
And so I think people don't have, because of that, the willingness to really look at the history and really to process what happened because they're so scared that they'll be laid put in that category.
So it takes a lot of work and time.
And it's one of the things I think, as a society, we really still have a quick it fix.
We want things to be fixed quickly of, you know, quickly, but it takes time to do that.
- I'm worried.
I don't know what timeline we are on.
Are we on the timeline where historians are gonna look back and remember there, that was the turning point.
- If you look at sort of historical pattern and you know, there's no fixed pattern to things, but we are undergoing rapid change.
We're seeing a desire by communities to see themselves in the historical narrative and accurate ways.
All of those things have a positive, but it is also disruptive.
Will it be a situation where we all back up and go, okay, now let's have a real reckoning with what our past is and what we hope for, for the future of The United States or if it becomes so disruptive, that new comforting myths emerge.
I don't know what happens on the backside of disruption.
- Within the documentary, the historian was talking about this concern about the possibility of there being the cultivation creation of new comforting myths.
And right now in a country there men who are preparing to be soldiers in a race war that black people don't want.
And so you, you highlighted this, recognizing that folks will look upon that scene of revolt and assume this is what black folks want.
And I'm just curious my dear panelist, have you sensed in your world and interacted with African Americans that there's this desire for some widespread destruction of that which is America?
I haven't.
- No, (laughs) No.
I think that more than anything else, I think within the African American community or of people of color that the ideas living up to what America's about.
So one of the things that I do when I talk in my class, when we get into talking about the reconstruction period, is that, you know what African Americans simply want, what it means to be American.
They want to be fully embraced the right to vote, the right to have a worship service and not have to get permission to have a worship service, the right to bear arms, because there are all these pieces of legislation that are put in to restrict African Americans to participate in what it means to be an American.
So I think in terms of today, that's all that people, that's what people want.
So what it means let's that live that out.
And I think in regards to your earlier question, I think the understanding that we can as a nation, we can't move forward unless we hold on.
And we deal with these issues, because I think for a lot of people after George Floyd and that everything of 2020, you know, a lot of people just sort of felt like they could walk away.
African Americans can't walk away, we deal with this day in and day out.
So understand that it's not a luxury that people can take.
We are in this together.
- I think the biggest question about the monuments or the whole idea of monuments coming down or being destroyed or being replaced, has to do with that question of respect and being, and one being able to respect one's past and one's future.
And what I mean is that a lot of those who wish for the monuments to stay feel that it is a part of their heritage, their lineage, which we can, everybody can understand.
Everybody wants to have and celebrate heritage.
Everybody wants to respect the dead.
Everybody wants to respect family members, but then there's that question of is that or how that was erected.
Which I think is the biggest question a lot of people have.
Was it really for that intent or was it for other, in for another intent?
So having monuments that deal with the dead, the rightful place, it's not in the middle of a city, the rightful place is in the cemetery because that is the sacred space to honor.
Once it's taken out from what is known to be sacred and to understand and put into a middle of a city with an intent of damage, it's no longer a monument for the soldier that monument becomes a soldier to guard and to thwart off, which is the biggest question of the monument fight.
So I think we can all say that, yes, we honor and respect, and you should have the ability and honor and respect your lineage, your forefathers.
But does that mean that it being used as a weapon for me today or then against people who look like me, I should continue to honor that, No.
Because the place is for it to be in this spot, not this spot, - Especially when that spot is a city courthouse.
- [Isaac] Yes.
- Or City hall where all of a sudden the messages this isn't yours.
- [Isaac] Right.
- You are seen here, you are protected here.
You are welcome here.
- [Isaac] Right?
- This time has exceeded my grand expectation.
So it's been a joy to work with you on this, Dr. Theodore it's been a pleasure to be with each of you today.
And now it is time for us to begin to encounter experience the work that students have brought around these micro monuments and various stories of monuments throughout and within our own community.
Thank y'all.
(upbeat music) (background chatter) - [Narrator 1] Funding for this program is provided by POV, The community Foundation of Greater Chattanooga and Grandview Foundation.
- [Narrator 2] Get access to even more of the shows you love with WTCI Passport on the PBS video app.
Download it today.