1 00:00:01,067 --> 00:00:04,571 By the River is brought to you in part by. The 2 00:00:04,671 --> 00:00:06,806 University of South Carolina Beaufort. 3 00:00:06,906 --> 00:00:10,276 Learning in action, discovered. Community 4 00:00:10,377 --> 00:00:12,679 foundation of the Lowcountry. Strengthening 5 00:00:12,779 --> 00:00:18,051 community. OHSHER LIFELONG LEARNING 6 00:00:18,151 --> 00:00:22,689 INSTITUTE. at U.S.C.B. The Pat Conroy Literary 7 00:00:22,789 --> 00:00:32,198 Center. Artistic Flower Shop. A native of North 8 00:00:32,298 --> 00:00:35,035 Carolina Wiley Cash pens the working 9 00:00:35,135 --> 00:00:38,905 American experience. His ability to write stories 10 00:00:39,005 --> 00:00:42,909 about impacts On historical events on working America and 11 00:00:43,009 --> 00:00:46,012 the human struggle in that moment have won him 12 00:00:46,112 --> 00:00:49,382 multiple awards. His most recent book, The Last 13 00:00:49,482 --> 00:00:51,885 Ballot, winner of the American library 14 00:00:51,985 --> 00:00:54,421 association book of the year, follows Ella May 15 00:00:54,521 --> 00:00:56,723 Wiggins journey in the textiles zero labor 16 00:00:56,823 --> 00:01:00,026 movement. I'm Hollie Jackson. Join us as we 17 00:01:00,126 --> 00:01:02,595 bring you powerful stories from both new and 18 00:01:02,695 --> 00:01:06,766 established southern authors. As we sit By The River. 19 00:01:06,866 --> 00:01:45,772 ♪ 20 00:01:45,872 --> 00:01:48,475 Well it's another beautiful day here in our 21 00:01:48,575 --> 00:01:51,478 low country waterfront studio in Beaufort South 22 00:01:51,578 --> 00:01:54,214 Carolina. You're watching season three of By The 23 00:01:54,314 --> 00:01:56,883 River thanks again for joining in. You're going to 24 00:01:56,983 --> 00:01:59,085 notice the things look a little different this 25 00:01:59,185 --> 00:02:01,688 season. As much of what you're watching on TV 26 00:02:01,788 --> 00:02:04,057 probably. My guest tonight your spaced a little 27 00:02:04,157 --> 00:02:06,593 farther apart than normally would be and 28 00:02:06,693 --> 00:02:08,995 it's what we call a skeleton crew around here. 29 00:02:09,095 --> 00:02:11,531 Not as many people out working the cameras and 30 00:02:11,631 --> 00:02:14,100 the teleprompters we once had because we're just 31 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,636 keeping it our following all the protocols that we 32 00:02:16,736 --> 00:02:18,438 show. We've got the hand sanitizer here. 33 00:02:18,538 --> 00:02:20,206 Everyone out there is wearing their masks as 34 00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:22,542 they should. You know the easy decision would be just 35 00:02:22,642 --> 00:02:24,711 say. Hey let's just scratch it. But we didn't 36 00:02:24,811 --> 00:02:27,147 want to do that because we noticed that during 37 00:02:27,247 --> 00:02:29,415 the quarantine. So many of you have reached out to 38 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:31,918 us and talking about books you've read, or 39 00:02:32,018 --> 00:02:33,953 shows that you've watched By The River 40 00:02:34,053 --> 00:02:36,523 maybe even rewatched and decided to pick that book 41 00:02:36,623 --> 00:02:38,958 up. We know that this is a time when many of you 42 00:02:39,058 --> 00:02:41,060 were deciding to read more and so we want to 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,597 tell you about more books, and to do that today is 44 00:02:44,697 --> 00:02:46,900 Wiley Cash and he's talking about his third 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,435 book, The Last Ballot. thanks so much for coming. 46 00:02:49,536 --> 00:02:51,304 Thank you for having me. You had a little bit of a 47 00:02:51,404 --> 00:02:53,673 drive I did I moved down from Wilmington North 48 00:02:53,773 --> 00:02:57,076 Carolina. All right, tell us about this book and the 49 00:02:57,177 --> 00:03:00,813 special lady who is is the main star of the show of 50 00:03:00,914 --> 00:03:04,183 this book, and how she kind of became important 51 00:03:04,284 --> 00:03:07,186 to you in your life. So this book is set in 52 00:03:07,287 --> 00:03:10,523 nineteen twenty nine and the main character is is 53 00:03:10,623 --> 00:03:14,928 a real person, a real American fire when on 54 00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:18,498 named Ella May Wiggins, and it takes place and in 55 00:03:18,598 --> 00:03:20,567 nineteen twenty nine in my home town of Gastonia 56 00:03:20,667 --> 00:03:24,103 North Carolina, and during that year that's that 57 00:03:24,203 --> 00:03:26,573 spring and summer especially. Ella was part 58 00:03:26,673 --> 00:03:30,577 of and organize strike at a at a mill. Where they 59 00:03:30,677 --> 00:03:33,746 were demanding higher wages, sanitary housing, 60 00:03:33,846 --> 00:03:37,150 better living conditions and Ella got swept up 61 00:03:37,250 --> 00:03:40,687 in this very violent moment. Where we have this 62 00:03:40,787 --> 00:03:43,323 conflict of race and class and gender in 63 00:03:43,423 --> 00:03:45,758 economics and politics and this really violent 64 00:03:45,858 --> 00:03:49,929 confrontation. In Gastonia North Carolina, and what's 65 00:03:50,029 --> 00:03:53,032 amazing about it. Is you know this is this is an 66 00:03:53,132 --> 00:03:55,201 event that happened right before the stock market 67 00:03:55,301 --> 00:03:57,837 crash, right before the Great Depression. It's an 68 00:03:57,937 --> 00:04:00,273 event that made headlines in every major newspaper 69 00:04:00,373 --> 00:04:03,042 around the world but as soon as that happened it 70 00:04:03,142 --> 00:04:05,345 literally disappeared from local history, from 71 00:04:05,445 --> 00:04:08,081 American history and I grew up in Gastonia North 72 00:04:08,181 --> 00:04:10,550 Carolina I never heard the name Ella May Wiggins. I 73 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:12,986 never heard of the Lowell mill strike. By the time I 74 00:04:13,086 --> 00:04:14,988 came along the Lowell mill had been sold to 75 00:04:15,088 --> 00:04:17,857 Firestone, had become a a place where they made 76 00:04:17,957 --> 00:04:21,394 belts for tires. So the history of this woman 77 00:04:21,494 --> 00:04:24,163 her struggle her her triumph the challenges 78 00:04:24,263 --> 00:04:26,532 that these workers faced. These violent 79 00:04:26,633 --> 00:04:28,868 confrontations they had they had kind of 80 00:04:28,968 --> 00:04:32,205 disappeared, and so when I learned about it kind of 81 00:04:32,305 --> 00:04:36,209 by chance. I thought you know what a great thing 82 00:04:36,309 --> 00:04:39,779 for novel. You know buried history. This, this tense 83 00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:42,949 history American, American politics and culture. 84 00:04:43,049 --> 00:04:45,618 Since it was sort of erased from history in that 85 00:04:45,718 --> 00:04:48,688 area. How has the community taken on the 86 00:04:48,788 --> 00:04:51,157 fact that you're bringing it back to life? You know 87 00:04:51,257 --> 00:04:53,526 that's a great question. I was concerned because 88 00:04:53,626 --> 00:04:56,362 Gastonia as a city, well Gaston county where I'm 89 00:04:56,462 --> 00:04:57,964 from is in the foothills of the Appalachian 90 00:04:58,064 --> 00:05:01,901 Mountains and Gaston county essentially was 91 00:05:02,001 --> 00:05:06,005 built on the backs of mill workers. It's a place 92 00:05:06,105 --> 00:05:10,209 that had it easy access to to water sources and 93 00:05:10,309 --> 00:05:12,178 so those water sources originally in the 94 00:05:12,278 --> 00:05:14,814 founding of Gaston county were by white 95 00:05:14,914 --> 00:05:17,383 settlers they were powering whiskey stills. 96 00:05:17,483 --> 00:05:19,352 Then once people realize the ready 97 00:05:19,452 --> 00:05:21,521 availability of cotton they begin, the water 98 00:05:21,621 --> 00:05:24,323 began to power cotton mills and so the turn of 99 00:05:24,424 --> 00:05:25,958 the century in nineteen hundred there were a 100 00:05:26,059 --> 00:05:28,261 hundred textile mills and Gaston county. It was 101 00:05:28,361 --> 00:05:30,563 known as the city of spindles. They called cotton 102 00:05:30,663 --> 00:05:33,266 capital of the south and people were coming from 103 00:05:33,366 --> 00:05:35,101 Appalachia they were coming from these local 104 00:05:35,201 --> 00:05:38,171 farms looking for life in the mills. Because you 105 00:05:38,271 --> 00:05:40,673 know the mills are sending Barker's up to 106 00:05:40,773 --> 00:05:43,376 these lumber camps and they're saying come down 107 00:05:43,476 --> 00:05:46,279 to the mills. We will give you a home. We'll give you 108 00:05:46,379 --> 00:05:48,047 a church. Will give you a school. Will give you a 109 00:05:48,147 --> 00:05:51,684 job. Will give you a store. It's easy living and 110 00:05:51,784 --> 00:05:54,153 people came especially after World War one and 111 00:05:54,253 --> 00:05:56,456 they found that wasn't true. Unemployment 112 00:05:56,556 --> 00:06:00,793 skyrocketed wages fell and by the time the lorry 113 00:06:00,893 --> 00:06:02,562 strike happened in nineteen twenty nine 114 00:06:02,662 --> 00:06:05,698 people were literally dying of starvation and 115 00:06:05,798 --> 00:06:09,435 and and and desperation and poverty and illness. 116 00:06:09,535 --> 00:06:13,172 In so the strike which which resulted in the the 117 00:06:13,272 --> 00:06:15,942 murder of the police chief and and the 118 00:06:16,042 --> 00:06:17,877 arresting of all the strikers and another 119 00:06:17,977 --> 00:06:20,446 murder that I won't give away right now, and at 120 00:06:20,546 --> 00:06:22,281 this moment you have to read at least a couple 121 00:06:22,381 --> 00:06:24,517 pages of the book to find out what I'm talking 122 00:06:24,617 --> 00:06:28,187 about. But it really left a stain on Gastonias 123 00:06:28,287 --> 00:06:31,758 legacy, and the strikers were derided and 124 00:06:31,858 --> 00:06:35,461 dismissed as communist as you know kind of even 125 00:06:35,561 --> 00:06:38,431 evil northern inspired labor organizers. Although 126 00:06:38,531 --> 00:06:41,868 the mill was actually northern owned. So it 127 00:06:41,968 --> 00:06:44,704 was a it was it a tense moment in the history of 128 00:06:44,804 --> 00:06:47,640 the city and the county and the state. That people 129 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:50,009 just kind of wanted to forget and they did for 130 00:06:50,109 --> 00:06:52,478 the most part and so when the book came out. I 131 00:06:52,578 --> 00:06:54,981 thought, you know I'm not at my tearing a wound 132 00:06:55,081 --> 00:06:57,750 on something hadn't healed yet? You know my family 133 00:06:57,850 --> 00:07:00,820 was from the mills. My mother's maiden name is 134 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,523 Wiggins coincidently. My grandfather was twenty 135 00:07:03,623 --> 00:07:05,992 two years old the summer that a woman who shared 136 00:07:06,092 --> 00:07:07,894 his last name was making headlines around the 137 00:07:07,994 --> 00:07:10,496 world for leading this mill strike, and he 138 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:11,998 worked at a mill just down the road and he 139 00:07:12,098 --> 00:07:14,300 never talked about her. Never never talked about 140 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,036 the strike, and so it was a tense thing in the 141 00:07:17,136 --> 00:07:20,239 history of the of the city in the state. But it 142 00:07:20,339 --> 00:07:23,409 was also something that the Defined these people. The 143 00:07:23,509 --> 00:07:26,379 people that I'm from in ways that, I don't think 144 00:07:26,479 --> 00:07:28,514 we ever really had the chance to acknowledge 145 00:07:28,614 --> 00:07:32,218 fairly and and I realized after writing this book 146 00:07:32,318 --> 00:07:34,086 and spending as much time with it as I did it's 147 00:07:34,187 --> 00:07:37,323 because you know history is written by the victors. 148 00:07:37,423 --> 00:07:39,692 Ella May and the people she was fighting with 149 00:07:39,792 --> 00:07:42,929 we're not the victors and so. She was literally 150 00:07:43,029 --> 00:07:46,532 erased from from history and this is a small part 151 00:07:46,632 --> 00:07:48,434 of trying to bring back for story. But others are 152 00:07:48,534 --> 00:07:51,504 doing work that's you know. Just as, just as 153 00:07:51,604 --> 00:07:54,273 effective and and doing that. As I understand you 154 00:07:54,373 --> 00:07:56,108 actually heard her name for the first time with a 155 00:07:56,209 --> 00:07:59,011 college professor. Yeah yeah I went to graduate 156 00:07:59,111 --> 00:08:01,614 school and and and Lafayette Louisiana and 157 00:08:01,714 --> 00:08:04,817 one of my first days on campus, I I was I was 158 00:08:04,917 --> 00:08:08,054 asked you know where you from and you know I kind 159 00:08:08,154 --> 00:08:10,223 of became a writer in Asheville and I normally 160 00:08:10,323 --> 00:08:12,592 just say Asheville. It's easy people know where it is 161 00:08:12,692 --> 00:08:15,361 they know like beerr capital of the USA, and 162 00:08:15,461 --> 00:08:17,263 Julian hankey sacks. You know they kind of like 163 00:08:17,363 --> 00:08:19,999 that stuff. But I'm from Gastonia which is just 164 00:08:20,099 --> 00:08:21,734 down the mountain from Asheville, but people don't 165 00:08:21,834 --> 00:08:24,370 really know where that is. I always have to say it's 166 00:08:24,470 --> 00:08:26,472 in between Asheville and Charlotte there's a 167 00:08:26,572 --> 00:08:29,442 clothing outlet there are cloth outlet or whatever. 168 00:08:29,542 --> 00:08:31,310 But I just thought you know I'm new here I'm 169 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:33,646 gonna stick my plant my flag in southwest 170 00:08:33,746 --> 00:08:36,449 Louisiana. I'm gone say I'm from Gastonia. And so 171 00:08:36,549 --> 00:08:39,085 professor who is from New York I think is from 172 00:08:39,185 --> 00:08:41,387 Syracuse maybe. Say where you're from and I said 173 00:08:41,487 --> 00:08:44,123 I'm from Gastonia North Carolina and he said home 174 00:08:44,223 --> 00:08:46,859 of the Lowell mill strike and I said yeah. 175 00:08:46,959 --> 00:08:48,861 Yeah everybody knows about that. I was thinking 176 00:08:48,961 --> 00:08:52,131 what is that. So I looked it up online and I found 177 00:08:52,231 --> 00:08:53,966 out that one of the most significant labor 178 00:08:54,066 --> 00:08:55,601 movements in American history happened in my 179 00:08:55,701 --> 00:08:58,404 home town and I I didn't know about it. Ok. A 180 00:08:58,504 --> 00:09:01,007 few questions off that. Does that professor know 181 00:09:01,107 --> 00:09:03,776 what's happened after all that? Yeah yeah yeah. Ok. 182 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:07,580 Yeah and mentioned his name. His name Incidentally was, 183 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:11,284 who is Jerry McGuire was kind of funny. But yeah he 184 00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:14,220 was a big labor guy and I found that a lot of 185 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,623 people outside the region especially people from 186 00:09:17,723 --> 00:09:20,293 northern mill towns know more about the Lorry 187 00:09:20,393 --> 00:09:24,063 strike that people from my hometown because it 188 00:09:24,163 --> 00:09:26,866 was studied other places and they're about novels 189 00:09:26,966 --> 00:09:28,901 written about it. You know married divorced what a 190 00:09:29,001 --> 00:09:32,838 novel about it. A lot of people have Written about it. 191 00:09:32,939 --> 00:09:35,308 So from that moment going back from that class and 192 00:09:35,408 --> 00:09:37,543 doing that research. The time you actually put pen 193 00:09:37,643 --> 00:09:39,745 to paper. How long was that? Was a kind of 194 00:09:39,845 --> 00:09:42,615 tugging after you? It was a long time, You know I went 195 00:09:42,715 --> 00:09:45,651 down to Louisiana to to study under a writer that I 196 00:09:45,751 --> 00:09:48,120 admired. Named Ernest Gaines and he wrote books like A 197 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:50,423 Lesson Before Dying and an autobiography of Miss 198 00:09:50,523 --> 00:09:53,326 Jane Pittman and so I went down there to kinda 199 00:09:53,426 --> 00:09:56,462 of sit at his feet and and learn from him, and I 200 00:09:56,562 --> 00:10:00,032 went down with kind of no real idea of what kind of 201 00:10:00,132 --> 00:10:04,136 writer I was what kind of writer I wanted to be and 202 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:06,172 I got down to Louisiana and I was desperately 203 00:10:06,272 --> 00:10:08,407 homesick for western North Carolina, and I 204 00:10:08,507 --> 00:10:10,876 began to write about western North Carolina 205 00:10:10,977 --> 00:10:13,346 and when I heard about, when I learned about the 206 00:10:13,446 --> 00:10:16,482 Lorry strike and Ella Mays struggle. I thought you 207 00:10:16,582 --> 00:10:20,152 know that would make it and an incredible novel. 208 00:10:20,252 --> 00:10:22,688 But it was such a big story. It was a story that 209 00:10:22,788 --> 00:10:24,857 literally encompasses the whole state. It 210 00:10:24,957 --> 00:10:27,994 encompasses so much of southern history. American 211 00:10:28,094 --> 00:10:29,762 labor history, American industrial history, 212 00:10:29,862 --> 00:10:31,998 political history. I just thought you know I 213 00:10:32,098 --> 00:10:34,467 haven't even written a book yet. I'm just writing 214 00:10:34,567 --> 00:10:37,103 these kind of short stories. That are kind of 215 00:10:37,203 --> 00:10:39,805 region less and I'm just trying to find my voice, 216 00:10:39,905 --> 00:10:41,741 and I knew better that better than to try to 217 00:10:41,841 --> 00:10:45,111 write that book with my first book and so I wrote 218 00:10:45,211 --> 00:10:46,545 two other books that are actually sitting right 219 00:10:46,646 --> 00:10:48,247 here. A Land More Kind Than Home. In the struggle 220 00:10:48,347 --> 00:10:51,217 to mercy, and after I cut my teeth on those books 221 00:10:51,317 --> 00:10:54,453 I knew, I felt more prepared to take on the 222 00:10:54,553 --> 00:10:57,390 challenge of writing a more expansive book. That 223 00:10:57,490 --> 00:10:59,658 takes place over years instead of days, as my 224 00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:02,428 first two books do. I also had a PhD in 225 00:11:02,528 --> 00:11:04,497 American literature by that time. So I was a 226 00:11:04,597 --> 00:11:07,867 better researcher. I kind of knew how to navigate 227 00:11:07,967 --> 00:11:11,237 those materials and really zero in on what I 228 00:11:11,337 --> 00:11:13,773 was looking for and that definitely helped me. But 229 00:11:13,873 --> 00:11:16,709 in terms of how much time it was. I guess I heard 230 00:11:16,809 --> 00:11:19,545 about the Loray strike in the fall of two thousand 231 00:11:19,645 --> 00:11:21,647 three it would have been August in two thousand three 232 00:11:21,747 --> 00:11:24,150 and this book came out in in the fall of 233 00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:27,186 twenty seventeen. So hearing about it 234 00:11:27,286 --> 00:11:29,321 publishing it was a while. Fourteen years 235 00:11:29,422 --> 00:11:31,490 I guess, but it took me about five years to write 236 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:34,627 to research to write and sketch it out. Yeah. It's 237 00:11:34,727 --> 00:11:37,096 surprising that a movement. You know and and 238 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:39,999 that's a woman who did so much of that time. 239 00:11:40,099 --> 00:11:43,436 Was not more widely known. But do you feel that 240 00:11:43,536 --> 00:11:47,540 maybe the time is now? You know I I always feel like 241 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,311 that to a certain degree you know, you know 242 00:11:52,411 --> 00:11:54,714 written literature is written I've heard 243 00:11:54,814 --> 00:11:56,549 somebody say this. I didn't say this. Somebody smarter 244 00:11:56,649 --> 00:11:58,951 than me said this. Somebody so smart they'd be able to 245 00:11:59,051 --> 00:12:01,754 remember their own name, and I can't remember their name. 246 00:12:01,854 --> 00:12:04,657 But this person said literature maybe written 247 00:12:04,757 --> 00:12:06,392 about a time. But hopefully literatures 248 00:12:06,492 --> 00:12:09,328 written about all time or written for all time, and 249 00:12:09,428 --> 00:12:11,397 I think this book is a book written for all time. 250 00:12:11,497 --> 00:12:12,865 You know I wish it had been written in nineteen 251 00:12:12,965 --> 00:12:16,068 twenty nine or nineteen thirty and people were 252 00:12:16,168 --> 00:12:19,205 certainly writing novels about the strike then but 253 00:12:19,305 --> 00:12:23,442 I think you know in the years between the wars 254 00:12:23,542 --> 00:12:26,812 and certainly after the wars novels that are that 255 00:12:26,912 --> 00:12:29,115 are social problem novels were written with these 256 00:12:29,215 --> 00:12:32,017 archetypal characters were characters are all 257 00:12:32,118 --> 00:12:35,588 good to you maybe the strikers are all good and 258 00:12:35,688 --> 00:12:38,157 the bosses are all bad and I didn't write that 259 00:12:38,257 --> 00:12:40,326 kind of novel. I wrote a novel that I hope feels 260 00:12:40,426 --> 00:12:42,828 more human, feels more realistic, feels 261 00:12:42,928 --> 00:12:45,764 more complicated in terms of human nature and 262 00:12:45,865 --> 00:12:48,501 desire and fear and uncertainty. So I don't I 263 00:12:48,601 --> 00:12:51,604 didn't really write a black and white novel and 264 00:12:51,704 --> 00:12:55,007 I feel like now we're living in a time where. 265 00:12:55,107 --> 00:12:56,909 You know we want to think that things are black and 266 00:12:57,009 --> 00:12:59,145 white. We want to believe that we can and we can 267 00:12:59,245 --> 00:13:01,914 stand on we can plant a political flag and stand 268 00:13:02,014 --> 00:13:03,616 by that fly all the time and I think we're 269 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:06,485 learning that we can't and and I hope we're 270 00:13:06,585 --> 00:13:09,054 learning that it's okay to re-see something you 271 00:13:09,155 --> 00:13:11,790 know maybe a vote we cast in twenty sixteen to 272 00:13:11,891 --> 00:13:15,127 re-see that vote. Labor strike that we didn't 273 00:13:15,227 --> 00:13:16,795 take seriously in nineteen twenty nine. To 274 00:13:16,896 --> 00:13:20,132 receive that labor strike and so I feel like this 275 00:13:20,232 --> 00:13:23,369 is this is a novel for now. But you know other 276 00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:25,437 people knew about Ella May Wiggins. Woody Guthrie 277 00:13:25,538 --> 00:13:27,273 called or the the the mother of the American 278 00:13:27,373 --> 00:13:29,708 protest song and he was influenced by her. Pete 279 00:13:29,808 --> 00:13:32,711 Seeger recorded her music. Joan Baez was influenced 280 00:13:32,811 --> 00:13:33,946 by her. Bruce Springsteen's been 281 00:13:34,046 --> 00:13:36,348 influenced by her. So they knew about her and they 282 00:13:36,448 --> 00:13:39,685 were tapping into her you know we're we're swayed 283 00:13:39,785 --> 00:13:42,488 by the effect that that she had on them. But the 284 00:13:42,588 --> 00:13:45,891 general population was not. They didn't know. With 285 00:13:45,991 --> 00:13:48,427 writing historical fiction. You're filling in 286 00:13:48,527 --> 00:13:51,330 some gaps there that that are unknown. How did you 287 00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:55,234 go about that with. Was it just simply you know 288 00:13:55,334 --> 00:13:56,936 what makes a good story or what you think 289 00:13:57,036 --> 00:13:59,471 probably happened or how do you go about making 290 00:13:59,572 --> 00:14:01,473 that choice? That's a good question. You know I knew 291 00:14:01,574 --> 00:14:03,776 I didn't want to write a text book. I knew I didn't 292 00:14:03,876 --> 00:14:06,845 want to write a collection of facts and I 293 00:14:06,946 --> 00:14:11,951 think that that's what separates storytellers 294 00:14:12,051 --> 00:14:15,554 from you know fact relators. I've said this 295 00:14:15,654 --> 00:14:18,324 before we've all got the friend who calls us at 296 00:14:18,424 --> 00:14:20,960 night so it's always been such a day. You know I 297 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:25,364 woke up I had lunch. You know how that can be, and 298 00:14:25,464 --> 00:14:28,500 I drove in the car and now I'm going to bed. 299 00:14:28,601 --> 00:14:31,737 That's the story that's a set of set of facts and I 300 00:14:31,837 --> 00:14:33,305 didn't want to write a book that was a set of 301 00:14:33,405 --> 00:14:36,041 facts. For example the strike began on April 302 00:14:36,141 --> 00:14:39,645 first. This event happened on June six. Like I wanted 303 00:14:39,745 --> 00:14:41,780 all those facts to be in there. Because I wanted 304 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,583 that stuff to be real, and I I borrow from real 305 00:14:44,683 --> 00:14:47,887 people. I have composite characters. But most of 306 00:14:47,987 --> 00:14:50,489 the major characters are real people. And they 307 00:14:50,589 --> 00:14:53,759 actually did these things. But at the same time 308 00:14:53,859 --> 00:14:56,362 facts do not a story make. You know a story is 309 00:14:56,462 --> 00:14:59,064 something that that has an inciting incident. That 310 00:14:59,164 --> 00:15:02,101 has rising tension. That has some kind of climax 311 00:15:02,201 --> 00:15:04,103 and then some kind of reverberation, and some 312 00:15:04,203 --> 00:15:07,906 kind of you know closing there at the end. And so I 313 00:15:08,007 --> 00:15:11,977 wanted to write a story after gathering a set of 314 00:15:12,077 --> 00:15:15,781 facts. But researching is so much more fun than 315 00:15:15,881 --> 00:15:18,684 writing. That I spent a lot of time researching 316 00:15:18,784 --> 00:15:21,287 and I found myself overwhelmed by so many 317 00:15:21,387 --> 00:15:25,491 facts. That it became hard to say okay here are the 318 00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:28,727 facts. What is the narrative that strings 319 00:15:28,827 --> 00:15:31,330 these facts together. That makes for a compelling 320 00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:33,766 story. That someone's gonna to enjoy reading. 321 00:15:33,866 --> 00:15:35,801 Because if they don't enjoy reading this novel 322 00:15:35,901 --> 00:15:37,770 there they should go read a history book about the 323 00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:41,006 strikes they can learn the same set of facts. And 324 00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:43,575 so it was hard to try to find the story and I 325 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:47,112 decided early on that it was it was Ella Maes story. She 326 00:15:47,212 --> 00:15:48,881 was gonna to be the heart the conscience of the 327 00:15:48,981 --> 00:15:51,917 book. But it wasn't her story alone. It was also 328 00:15:52,017 --> 00:15:54,186 the story of no loners that was the story of 329 00:15:54,286 --> 00:15:55,988 organized was that was the story about Ella Mae's 330 00:15:56,088 --> 00:15:58,724 children. And so these voices begin to kind of 331 00:15:58,824 --> 00:16:01,493 weave their way and to my understanding of how this 332 00:16:01,593 --> 00:16:04,263 book was going to unfold. And they became part of 333 00:16:04,363 --> 00:16:07,466 the larger, the larger story. Have you heard from re 334 00:16:07,566 --> 00:16:09,201 you did a lot of research. But have you heard from 335 00:16:09,301 --> 00:16:11,837 readers and gain some more insight? Maybe people 336 00:16:11,937 --> 00:16:13,605 who might have had some kind of connections 337 00:16:13,706 --> 00:16:16,208 themselves? Interesting ways I have. I heard from 338 00:16:16,308 --> 00:16:19,311 a lot of people that said you know, I grew up in and 339 00:16:19,411 --> 00:16:22,715 a mill Village or I grew up in the lorry village. 340 00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,984 I grew up hearing stories of my grandmother on the 341 00:16:26,085 --> 00:16:29,154 picket line getting beat up by the National Guard, or 342 00:16:29,254 --> 00:16:31,857 my father owned the mill, and my father was more 343 00:16:31,957 --> 00:16:33,792 sympathetic to the strikers then you're 344 00:16:33,892 --> 00:16:36,061 making this, the, the, mill managers out to be. 345 00:16:36,161 --> 00:16:39,331 Lorry out to be, and so what I've learned is 346 00:16:39,431 --> 00:16:43,068 everybody. Everybody has been affected a lot of 347 00:16:43,168 --> 00:16:44,837 people in my hometown of been affected by the 348 00:16:44,937 --> 00:16:48,474 lorry strike, and they and many of them have very 349 00:16:48,574 --> 00:16:52,644 narrow perceptions of how it's come to bear on thier 350 00:16:52,745 --> 00:16:55,514 lives, and so for example. I've heard a lot of 351 00:16:55,614 --> 00:16:58,951 stories that I know simply are not true. I had 352 00:16:59,051 --> 00:17:01,720 a woman tell me. You know my family is one of the 353 00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:05,324 families that started the mill, and and and wind up 354 00:17:05,424 --> 00:17:07,393 when the strikers came to town in nineteen twenty 355 00:17:07,493 --> 00:17:10,195 nine they shot at my grandfather's house. I 356 00:17:10,295 --> 00:17:12,898 just knew that wasn't true. Because the mill was 357 00:17:12,998 --> 00:17:16,001 sold like in nineteen fourteen. So the the lorry 358 00:17:16,101 --> 00:17:18,404 strikers aren't gonna say, before we get the strike 359 00:17:18,504 --> 00:17:20,272 going let's find out who owned this mill fifteen 360 00:17:20,372 --> 00:17:22,541 years ago and go shoot at their house. You know it's just 361 00:17:22,641 --> 00:17:25,177 not true. But but she was raised believing that 362 00:17:25,277 --> 00:17:28,113 and that has become fact. I also met a guy at an 363 00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:30,682 events in Chapel Hill North Carolina. Who showed 364 00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:33,852 me up a poster of jail strikers and said this is 365 00:17:33,952 --> 00:17:36,388 my grandmother, and I knew it wasn't his grandmother. 366 00:17:36,488 --> 00:17:39,525 It was a strike organizer from New Jersey. He said 367 00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:41,326 she worked in the mill or whole life and they 368 00:17:41,427 --> 00:17:44,496 arrested her and I was just very polite. So it was an 369 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:46,265 amazing story. I didn't want to you know shake the 370 00:17:46,365 --> 00:17:48,734 foundations of his perception, [Sure.] of his 371 00:17:48,834 --> 00:17:50,669 grandmother. But it actually was not his 372 00:17:50,769 --> 00:17:54,673 grandmother, and so it's it's interesting how you 373 00:17:54,773 --> 00:17:57,276 know the experiences of our ancestors come to 374 00:17:57,376 --> 00:18:00,412 shape our understanding of our own lives, and 375 00:18:00,512 --> 00:18:02,948 people have, have real your blood sweat and 376 00:18:03,048 --> 00:18:05,918 tears and and pain glory invested in that 377 00:18:06,018 --> 00:18:08,320 strike, and it's it's been interesting to hear their 378 00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:11,323 stories after all these years. Very good. Well this 379 00:18:11,423 --> 00:18:13,225 has been a quick interview. Wow it's flown 380 00:18:13,325 --> 00:18:15,661 by. We do have a few more minutes, and I will always 381 00:18:15,761 --> 00:18:18,063 want to try to include this question if I can. 382 00:18:18,163 --> 00:18:19,865 Typically we would see a lot of students out here, 383 00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:22,167 but because of all the Precautions. We're taking many 384 00:18:22,267 --> 00:18:24,136 of them are doing behind the scenes work for the 385 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:27,072 show. But I always like to ask what kind of advice 386 00:18:27,172 --> 00:18:29,608 you would have for a college aged student right now? 387 00:18:29,708 --> 00:18:32,377 Who might be entering the real world and a little 388 00:18:32,478 --> 00:18:35,981 bit confused and clueless and scared and all that. 389 00:18:36,081 --> 00:18:40,052 Many of them have of goals of of writing or 390 00:18:40,152 --> 00:18:42,521 doing something in that field. So what kind of 391 00:18:42,621 --> 00:18:45,724 advice would you give? You know for for students 392 00:18:45,824 --> 00:18:49,595 entering the world right now I would I would say 393 00:18:49,695 --> 00:18:51,964 it's a couple of things to them. First of all 394 00:18:52,064 --> 00:18:55,000 you've got you're already in the leaving college 395 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,136 the world is not new. You may feel a different set 396 00:18:57,236 --> 00:18:59,538 of responsibilities, but the world, the day before 397 00:18:59,638 --> 00:19:01,573 graduation is the same as the world the day after 398 00:19:01,673 --> 00:19:03,575 the graduation. So don't feel added pressure 399 00:19:03,675 --> 00:19:05,210 because you're now supposed to see the world 400 00:19:05,310 --> 00:19:08,714 in a different way. Because you just shouldn't. So 401 00:19:08,814 --> 00:19:10,382 don't feel that pressure. But it but in terms of 402 00:19:10,482 --> 00:19:13,185 people who want to be writers. I would encourage 403 00:19:13,285 --> 00:19:16,221 them to read broadly. Read outside the genre you're 404 00:19:16,321 --> 00:19:20,692 hoping to write in, and also you know find a 405 00:19:20,792 --> 00:19:23,562 group of peers. Whether it be a writing group if you 406 00:19:23,662 --> 00:19:26,331 in a writing program or you go down to your local 407 00:19:26,431 --> 00:19:31,203 bookstore and you say you know, will you read my 408 00:19:31,303 --> 00:19:33,005 work? Can be form a writing group? Can we 409 00:19:33,105 --> 00:19:35,874 trade manuscripts? You know people who love you 410 00:19:35,974 --> 00:19:40,479 are going to love your writing and that's not 411 00:19:40,579 --> 00:19:42,915 necessarily what you need as a writer. Sometimes you 412 00:19:43,015 --> 00:19:44,983 need people who don't necessarily have an 413 00:19:45,083 --> 00:19:47,653 emotional bond with you. To be honest about your 414 00:19:47,753 --> 00:19:51,590 work and and and and ways in which you can improve. 415 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:54,960 But you know I teach writing at UNC Asheville. 416 00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:58,497 In in North Carolina and I I tell my students. Read 417 00:19:58,597 --> 00:20:00,299 you have to read more than you write and you 418 00:20:00,399 --> 00:20:02,434 have to find a group of peers. To take your work 419 00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:04,403 seriously, and you also have to take their 420 00:20:04,503 --> 00:20:06,438 seriously. You know be part of the community 421 00:20:06,538 --> 00:20:08,941 because this is a lonely business and if you're 422 00:20:09,041 --> 00:20:11,009 alone all the time you're you're not checking the 423 00:20:11,109 --> 00:20:13,478 weather of of the world. And do you still have 424 00:20:13,579 --> 00:20:15,914 that community of writers? Yeah I do. You know 425 00:20:16,014 --> 00:20:17,749 that's what's wonderful about being a southern 426 00:20:17,849 --> 00:20:19,518 writer. I've still got a group of friends from 427 00:20:19,618 --> 00:20:21,520 graduate school in Louisiana. That I keep up 428 00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:24,122 with. We read each other's work from time to time, 429 00:20:24,223 --> 00:20:25,624 but you know being a southern writer 430 00:20:25,724 --> 00:20:28,827 especially from North Carolina. It's just such a 431 00:20:28,927 --> 00:20:33,632 such a comforting safe place to talk about ideas, 432 00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,134 to talk about works in progress and and the 433 00:20:36,235 --> 00:20:38,003 bounce manuscripts off of each other. You know 434 00:20:38,103 --> 00:20:40,172 I've got a couple of writer friends that, you 435 00:20:40,272 --> 00:20:41,840 know all your listeners would would know their 436 00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:44,443 names. That we're constantly sending stories back and 437 00:20:44,543 --> 00:20:46,845 forth to each other. They we're getting rejected 438 00:20:46,945 --> 00:20:48,614 from magazines, and were saying why did this get 439 00:20:48,714 --> 00:20:51,516 rejected? Read this and tell me how you'd fix it. 440 00:20:51,617 --> 00:20:53,452 So you just got to find a group like that, 441 00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:55,754 and and don't rush it don't put too much 442 00:20:55,854 --> 00:20:58,690 pressure on yourself to to to appear in print. 443 00:20:58,790 --> 00:21:00,692 Perfect, all right well thank you so much for 444 00:21:00,792 --> 00:21:02,594 coming. We we're just pleased to have you here 445 00:21:02,694 --> 00:21:05,197 in Beaufort. Everyone thank you so much for 446 00:21:05,297 --> 00:21:07,633 watching us. On By The River. We are going to 447 00:21:07,733 --> 00:21:09,534 leave you now with a little bit from our poets 448 00:21:09,635 --> 00:21:12,304 corner, and again this is season three of By The 449 00:21:12,404 --> 00:21:15,274 River and we are pleased and thankful to have you 450 00:21:15,374 --> 00:21:17,776 on board with us. Thanks for watching By The River. 451 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:29,321 ♪ 452 00:21:29,421 --> 00:21:32,824 In a Mountain. The tables turned by William 453 00:21:32,924 --> 00:21:40,799 Wordsworth. Up! up! my friend and quit your books for 454 00:21:40,899 --> 00:21:46,071 surely you'll grow double Up! up! my friend and 455 00:21:46,171 --> 00:21:52,377 clear your looks. Why all this toil and trouble? The 456 00:21:52,477 --> 00:21:56,615 sun above the mountains head, A freshening Lustre 457 00:21:56,715 --> 00:22:00,585 mellow. Through all the long green fields has 458 00:22:00,686 --> 00:22:07,993 spread, His first sweet evening yellow. Books! 459 00:22:08,093 --> 00:22:13,098 tis a dull and endless strife: Come, hear the woodland 460 00:22:13,198 --> 00:22:18,170 linnet, How sweet his music! on my life, There's 461 00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:23,975 more of wisdom in it. And hark! how blithe the 462 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:30,148 throstle sings! He, too, is no mean preacher: Come 463 00:22:30,248 --> 00:22:36,154 forth into the light of things, Let Nature be your 464 00:22:36,254 --> 00:22:43,195 teacher. She has a world of ready wealth, Our minds 465 00:22:43,295 --> 00:22:47,933 and hearts to bless, Spontaneous wisdom breathed 466 00:22:48,033 --> 00:22:56,641 by health, Truth breathed by cheerfulness. One impulse 467 00:22:56,742 --> 00:23:01,346 from a vernal wood may teach you more of man. Of 468 00:23:01,446 --> 00:23:08,687 moral evil and of good, Than all the sages can. 469 00:23:08,787 --> 00:23:12,657 sweet is the lore which nature brings; Our 470 00:23:12,758 --> 00:23:17,629 meddling intellect mis- shapes the beauteous forms 471 00:23:17,729 --> 00:23:27,239 of things; We murder to dissect. Enough of science 472 00:23:27,339 --> 00:23:34,246 and art; Close up those barring leaves; Come forth, 473 00:23:34,346 --> 00:23:39,718 and bring with you a heart that watches and 474 00:23:39,818 --> 00:23:47,559 receives. I was stared west she imagined the 475 00:23:47,659 --> 00:23:49,861 great mountains foggy and rain dampened the 476 00:23:49,961 --> 00:23:52,964 distance. The blue ridge's rolled away and great 477 00:23:53,064 --> 00:23:56,635 swells. She opened her mouth pause for a moment 478 00:23:56,735 --> 00:23:59,538 gather the story of her life around her if she 479 00:23:59,638 --> 00:24:01,773 would. Love to have him of a long dress before 480 00:24:01,873 --> 00:24:05,076 stepping across the stream. She did not think 481 00:24:05,177 --> 00:24:08,079 did not stop to look at Sophia. She simply began 482 00:24:08,180 --> 00:24:11,416 to speak. She imagined her brief life unfolding 483 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:13,652 there in the back of the truck like a story 484 00:24:13,752 --> 00:24:16,354 written across a great scroll of paper. The 485 00:24:16,455 --> 00:24:18,790 scroll unfurled itself and rolled out the open 486 00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:20,792 tail gate across the mountains toward 487 00:24:20,892 --> 00:24:23,328 Tennessee. All the way to the tiny schoolhouse 488 00:24:23,428 --> 00:24:26,465 outside Sevierville. Their her teacher bent to 489 00:24:26,565 --> 00:24:29,835 the rough pond floor. Took up the scroll held it to 490 00:24:29,935 --> 00:24:32,437 the weak light coming through the dirty windows, 491 00:24:32,537 --> 00:24:35,240 sniffed and nodded to himself. Then set about 492 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:37,809 recording the great equation of Ellas life at 493 00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:40,612 the front of the empty room, His pendulous wooden 494 00:24:40,712 --> 00:24:43,248 leg swinging as he shuffled along the length 495 00:24:43,348 --> 00:24:46,184 of the blackboard. She told Sophia about her 496 00:24:46,284 --> 00:24:48,720 family's life on the tenant farms. The number 497 00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:51,256 camps. The music of her mother's voice around the 498 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:53,525 campfire. The great steaming cauldron of 499 00:24:53,625 --> 00:24:56,862 clothes the smell of pine tar and sap and the reek 500 00:24:56,962 --> 00:25:00,498 of the soil of your sweat. The deaths. The mothers, the 501 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:03,401 fathers Willie's John sudden appearance in her 502 00:25:03,501 --> 00:25:05,270 life, and the many disappearances that 503 00:25:05,370 --> 00:25:08,607 followed. The countless mills and both Carolinas. 504 00:25:08,707 --> 00:25:11,576 Life is the only white family and Stumptown 505 00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:14,746 losing Willie for fear of losing Rose. The weight 506 00:25:14,846 --> 00:25:17,816 of her children and their lives upon our heart. The 507 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:20,218 jangle of Charlie's guitar the sensation of 508 00:25:20,318 --> 00:25:22,687 her voice filling her chest and lifting from 509 00:25:22,787 --> 00:25:25,891 her throat to meet his music. She told Sophia 510 00:25:25,991 --> 00:25:28,226 about waiting at the crossroads. Her nervous 511 00:25:28,326 --> 00:25:30,528 hand fingering the union leaflet she'd been 512 00:25:30,629 --> 00:25:33,431 carrying in their pocket. The many moments that led 513 00:25:33,532 --> 00:25:35,400 to the one they now shared in the back of 514 00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:39,304 this truck. Sophia smiled. Look to the road 515 00:25:39,404 --> 00:25:42,407 are still pondering the story she just heard. She 516 00:25:42,507 --> 00:25:45,377 looked back at Ella #*##* #*##*# she said. And you 517 00:25:45,477 --> 00:25:49,414 sing too? She laughed slapped her knee. #*##*# 518 00:25:49,514 --> 00:25:51,783 girl we hit the jackpot with you. You might be the 519 00:25:51,883 --> 00:25:53,285 one we've been looking for. 520 00:25:53,385 --> 00:26:18,510 ♪ 521 00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:19,644 By The River is 522 00:26:19,744 --> 00:26:23,214 brought to you in part by the university of South 523 00:26:23,315 --> 00:26:25,817 Carolina Beaufort. Learning in action, 524 00:26:25,917 --> 00:26:28,586 discovered. Community foundation of the 525 00:26:28,687 --> 00:26:34,726 Lowcountry. Strengthening community. OSHER 526 00:26:34,826 --> 00:26:39,030 lifelong learning institute at USCB. The 527 00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:44,169 Pat Conroy literary center. Artistic flower shop.