>> WELCOME BACK TO THE SPECIAL

EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

IT'S A BUSY ONE AS WE UNBUNDLE

INCLUDING THE REPUBLICAN AND

DEMOCRATIC PARTY CONVENTIONS THE

GOVERNOR'S KIDNAPPING TRIAL GO

SOUTH WITH THE FBI AND A

POSSIBLE DEAL INVOLVING DONALD

TRUMP AND AN ENDORSEMENT IN THE

RACE FOR GOVERNOR.

SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE

INSIDE OUT OFF THE RECORD.

>> PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD

IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY

MARTIN WEHMEIER A FULL-SERVICE

STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AGENCY

PARTNERING WITH CLIENTS TO

PUBLIC RELATIONS DIGITAL

MARKETING AND PUBLIC POLICY

ENGAGEMENT.

>> NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE

RECORD.

>> WELCOME BACK.

AS OFTEN HAPPENS IN THIS

BUSINESS WE PUT LAST WEEK'S

PROGRAM TO BED AND THAT A BIG

STORY.

WHO WE WILL TALK ABOUT THE

DECISION AND THE GOVERNOR

KIDNAPPING CASE.

>> THERE WINNERS AND LOSERS IN

EVERY TRIBE AND NO ONE SAW THIS

COMING I WAS IN COURT AS THESE

VERDICTS AND NON- VERDICTS WERE

ANNOUNCED.

FAMILY MEMBERS WERE GASPING AND

THEN THERE WERE TEARS OF JOY.

>> IS HE HAPPY HE HAD -- IS HE

HAPPY?

>> DON'T OVERSTATE THE OBVIOUS.

>> IT WAS A ROLL OF THE DICE FOR

THEIR SON DANIEL HERE TOOK THE

STAND AND TOLD JURY THERE IS NO

SERIOUS PLOT TO KIDNAP THE

GOVERNOR.

HARRIS HAD TO BEEN FOUND NOT

GUILTY ON KIDNAPPING CONSPIRACY

TO BOMB CHARGES AND THE ILLEGALS

SHORT BARREL RIFLE CHARGE

APPEARED >> HE DID AN INCREDIBLE

JOB TELLING THE TRUTH AT THE

JURY BELIEVED HIM AND I'M SO

HAPPY THEY GAVE HIM THE BENEFIT

OF THAT PURE >> IT'S A STUNNING

DEFEAT FOR THE FEDS THE FBI

INVESTED SO MUCH IN THIS.

THEY MADE THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF

UNDERCOVER RECORDING.

>> WE ARE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE

OUTCOME.

WITHOUT THE JURY WOULD CONVICT

CONVICT BASED ON THE EVIDENCE WE

PUT FORWARD.

>> BRANDON WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY

ON HIS CHARGE CONSPIRACY TO

KIDNAP AT THE GOVERNOR.

THE JURY'S VIDEOS OF HIM, AND

THAT HE WOULD TAKE NO PRISONERS.

>> IF THIS WHOLE THING STARTS TO

HAPPEN I TELL YOU WHAT I AM

TAKING OUT AS MANY OF THOSE AS I

CAN.

EVERY SINGLE ONE.

>> HIS ATTORNEY SAID IT WAS FREE

SPEECH IS NOT A CRIME AND THIS

WAS NEVER A PLOT.

>> ARE GOVERNOR WAS NEVER IN ANY

DANGER AND I THINK THE JURY

DIDN'T GET ALL OF IT BUT THEY

SMELLED ENOUGH OF IT.

>> IS HE HAPPY?

>> I'M SURE IT IS IT IS HIS

BIRTHDAY.

>> TURNS OUT THEY WERE RELEASED

FROM CUSTODY WITHIN MINUTES THEY

HAD BEEN LOCKED UP SINCE THEY

WERE ARRESTED A YEAR AND A HALF

AGO.

THIS WAS A JURY OF SIX WOMEN IN

SIX MEN'S IDENTITIES ARE NOT

REVEALED PUBLICLY EVEN DEFENSE

ATTORNEYS DO NOT KNOW WHO THEY

ARE.

JURORS WERE TOLD BY THE JUDGE IF

YOU WANT TO TALK WITH THE

ATTORNEYS AND OTHER THIS IS OVER

YOU CALL THEM AND THEY DIDN'T

TALK WITH US AS THEY LEFT COURT

HERE THIS AFTERNOON.

NO ONE KNOWS WHAT WENT ON INSIDE

THE JURY ROOM FOR THE LAST FIVE

DAYS DURING THE MONTH OF THIS

TRIAL.

>> AS OUR RACHEL HOLLIS' STORY

PLAYING OUTPOST WOULD HAPPENED

LAST FRIDAY.

>> WE HAVE TO REMEMBER AND LOOK

INTO THE STATE CASES OF THIS IS

FAR FROM OVER IN MANY CASES I

THINK THAT NEXT, FIRST, WE NEED

TO ADDRESS THE ELEPHANT IN THE

ROOM BUT THIS WAS A SHOCK FOR

EVERYONE WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

NOT NECESSARILY THAT SOME PEOPLE

GOT OFF BUT THAT THERE WAS NO

CONVICTIONS OF ANY KIND SO FAR.

WE DO HAVE TWO MORE TRIALS TO

COME HERE WITH THE STATE TRIAL

BUT I THINK THERE WAS THE FREE

SPEECH DEFENSE BUT FOR HARRIS HE

HAD A LOT OF CHARGES THAT HE WAS

FACING AND THERE WAS MORE

EVIDENCE FOR HIM AS WELL AND SO

I THINK MAYBE JIM YOU COULD

SPEAK TO THIS MORE BUT I WAS

SURPRISED THAT THINGS PLAYED OUT

THE WAY THEY DID.

>> NO ONE SAW THIS COMING.

HARRIS, WE ALL THOUGHT HE WOULD

GET CONVICTED ON THAT GUN CHARGE

BECAUSE THE TESTIMONY WAS HE HAD

THE THE SHORT-BARRELED ILLEGAL

RIFLE THAT WAS A NO-BRAINER HE

HAD POSSESSION SO WHAT WENT ON

IN THE MAINZ OF THE JURORS?

BUT MOVING FORWARD THIS IS WHAT

I FIND INTERESTING AND YOU WILL

LOVE THIS BECAUSE IT'S A

POLITICAL ANGLE.

CREWS AND THE DRIVER SEAT NOW?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND HERE'S

WHY SHE'S TALKING ABOUT THE TWO

STATE CASES IN JACKSON COUNTY

AND THOSE ARE HER CHARGES AND

THAT SHE CAN CHARGE THESE GUYS

YOU ARE EQUATED WITH STATE

CHARGES AND IT'S NOT DOUBLE

JEOPARDY IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR

FOR HER.

WILL SHE DO THAT?

>> YES AS EVER WOULD HAVE SAID

THIS IS NOT OVER BUT IT SEEMED

LIKE THERE WERE GASPS AS YOU

KNOW.

WE HEARD THE RESPONSE FROM THE

GOVERNOR'S OFFICE NOT FROM THE

GOVERNOR DIRECTLY THE DAY OF THE

CHARGES AND PUTTING THIS TO

CONTEXT SAYING THAT THE FACT

THAT THERE WERE NO CONVICTIONS

IT THIS MESSAGE AND CONTINUES

UNDER HEATED RHETORIC AND THE

VIOLENCE IN SOME CASES WE HAVE

SEEN OVER THE PASS FEW YEARS AND

THIS POLITICAL MOMENT THAT WE

FIND OURSELVES IN WHICH I THINK

FOR MANY IT WAS NOT NECESSARILY

JUST THE FACT THAT IT WAS A

SIGNAL THAT WAS WE HAD DEMOCRATS

TALKING ABOUT THAT AGAIN THE DAY

AFTER THEY WERE NOMINATED.

>> WE TALK ABOUT THE TIME WHERE

PEOPLE ARE DIVIDED AND THIS IS

SOMETHING THE PEOPLE FORGET

ABOUT OFTEN WHEN IT COMES TO A

JURY YOU HAVE TO SELECT 12

PEOPLE RANDOMLY TRY TO FIND 12

PEOPLE AT THIS STATE THAT A

GREAT ON ANY POLITICAL MATTER

THAT YOU SELECT RANDOMLY AND

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT AND I THINK

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE

ON THE MIND OF ATTORNEY GENERAL

AND THE FBI AND PROSECUTORS

ACROSS THE STATE.

>> SPEAKING OF THAT JURY

QUESTION MATT SNYDER WHO IS

INCREDIBLY SMART AND A FORMER

FEDERAL PROSECUTOR HIMSELF SAID

HE WAS SURPRISED THAT THE JUDGE

DIDN'T ASK THE JURY MORE

QUESTIONS AT THE BEGINNING ABOUT

WHAT BIASES THEY MAY HAVE.

LET'S REMEMBER EVEN SOME OF

THESE JURORS THAT SAY I AM A

NEWS JUNKIE BUT I HAVEN'T FILED

THE CASE THAT MUCH AND I THOUGHT

THAT WAS INTERESTING BUT ALSO

YOUR POINT ABOUT MOVING FORWARD

AND ALSO ANOTHER THING THAT

MATHIEU SNYDER SAID THEY GOT

SMART WISE THAT YOU CAN GO AND

IF THE JURORS WANT TO BE

INTERVIEWED AND AND THEY MAY

JUST DO THAT IF THE JURORS ARE

WILLING TO AND SAY THIS IS WHAT

DIDN'T WORK FOR US.

AND IF THEY DO TRY THE RETRIAL

AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE WILL BE

AND THAT'S WHAT ANDREW BURCH

SAID IN THE STATEMENT EVEN

THOUGH HE WAS NOT SUPER CLEAR

BUT THAT THEY COULD IF THE

JURORS ARE WILLING TO SAY HERE

IS WHAT FOR WORK -- WORKED FOR

US AND WHAT DID NOT AND IT COULD

AGAIN JUST BE A JURY OF YOUR

PEERS ALL 12 A DEGREE I SAT AS A

MURRAY DISH MURDER TRIAL AS A

JUROR AND ONE HOLDOUT CAN MAKE

ALL THE DIFFERENCE.

>> THE FBI TOOK A HIT ON THIS

THE ENTRAPMENT THING RESONATED

WITH THE JURY.

>> I THINK WILL THESE JURORS

DECIDE TO TALK AND IF THEY DO I

THINK ALL THESE PROSECUTORS FOR

THE UPCOMING TRIALS ARE WAITING

FOR THAT TO HAPPEN TO FIND OUT

WHAT DIDN'T WORK WHAT DO WE NEED

TO HIT ON MORE FOR THE NEXT FEW

TRIALS BECAUSE THAT WILL BE THE

KEY AND IT WILL BE THE DEFENSE

OF THE PROSECUTOR GOING FORWARD.

>> I THINK OF THE JURORS GO

PUBLIC MY THING IS THEY WILL

SHOW UP ON FOX NEWS CHANNEL ON

CABLE NATIONALLY THEY WILL REACH

OUT AND WANT THEIR STORY OUT

THERE THEY WILL TALK WITH THE

PRODUCER BEHIND THE SCENES AND

WORK OUT THE CONVERSATION AND

THESE WILL BE THE QUESTIONS.

THEY WILL BE ABLE TO TELL THEIR

STORY AND THIS IS THE SECOND

TIME THEY LOST ON A GROUP OF

GOVERNMENT PEOPLE.

THEY DIDN'T GO TO THE JURY.

THERE WASN'T ENOUGH EVIDENCE.

>> WHEN YOU HEAR THE DIALOGUE

THAT THEY WENT TO HER VACATION

COTTAGE AND STAKED OUT THE PLACE

WITH A MEN AND WOMEN CONCLUDE

THAT THEY WERE JUST SHOOTING THE

BREEZE?

WE WASTED FRIDAY OR SATURDAY

NIGHT DRIVING TO WHERE THEY WERE

WITHOUT DISCLOSING THE LOCATION?

AT THE RHETORIC IN THE TRIAL

SEEM TO POINT TOWARD SOME SORT

OF CONVICTION.

I WAS NOT THERE BUT YOU TELL ME.

>> IS A JUDGE GAVE THEM A

SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION THAT SAID

EVEN IF YOU JURORS BELIEVE THAT

THIS WAS AN IMPOSSIBLE PLOT TO

CARRY OUT YOU HAVE TO SET THAT

PART ASIDE AND SO WE'RE JUST

SPECULATING WHAT'S INSIDE THE

MAINZ OF THE JURORS BUT THERE

WAS A PLOT BUT AS I HAVE LOOKED

BACK AT THIS THERE WAS A STORY

BUT NOT AN ENDING TO THE STORY.

THERE IS NOTHING TO THE CASE

THERE ALL ARRESTED

SIMULTANEOUSLY THROUGHOUT THE

STATE.

ALL 14 BUT THERE IS NEVER ANY

EVIDENCE THAT WE WILL ALL MEET

ON THE 15TH OF OCTOBER OR THE

20TH OF OCTOBER YEAR HERE

YOU'RE HERE YOU'RE HERE AND

THAT'S THE END GAME.

THAT WAS NOT THE END GAME TO

THIS PLOT THOUGH A JUROR COULD

SAY IT WAS ALL TALK WHICH IS ONE

OF THE DEFENSES.

ANOTHER WAS ENTRAPMENT.

THERE WERE PEOPLE FOR THE FEDS

IN FEDS INFORMANTS AND FBI AGENT

WHO'S INFILTRATED THIS AND THERE

WAS EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE EGG

IT ON AND ENTICED AND INDUCED TO

CONTINUE THEIR PLOT.

>> WHEN WE HAD THE ATTORNEY

GENERAL ON A COUPLE WEEKS AGO

SHE THOUGHT THIS WAS A SOLID

CASE.

>> THUS TO THE GASPS AND WHEN

EVERYONE WAS SO SHOCKED AND

AGAIN I THINK THE GOVERNOR'S

OFFICE COMING IN SAYING IS THIS

THE NEW NORMAL?

IS THIS THE EXPECTATION YOU HAVE

AN HOUR WHEN YOU'RE ELECTED IN

THE OFFICE IS THAT YOU HAVE TO

TAKE THREATS AND FOLKS CAN MAKE

BOMBS AND DRIVE PASS YOUR

PERSONAL HOME?

AND IS THIS WHERE WE FIND

OURSELVES AFTER THESE FEW

VIOLENT YEARS IN AMERICAN

POLITICS?

>> IS A STORY IS NOT GOING AWAY?

>> NOT AT ALL.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN PLAY OUT IS

SOME REPUBLICANS HAVE STARTED TO

WEAVE A CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT

THE GOVERNOR AND THE AUTHORITIES

AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BEHIND

IT BUT IT IS A RESONATING.

>> LET'S PUT THIS ON THE TABLE.

SAUL DONNELL HINTED THAT MAY THE

GOVERNOR WAS BEHIND THIS PLOT

WITH THE FBI DID I HEAR THAT

CORRECTLY?

>> ON ITS FACE IT IS RIDICULOUS

BECAUSE WHO IS AN OFFICE IN

CHARGE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF

JUSTICE AT THE TIME THE PLOT WAS

INVESTIGATED?

IT WAS DONALD TRUMP AND IN THE

BEGINNING HE WAS TAKING CREDIT

FOR HIS.

PEOPLE IF YOU LOOK AT THIS TIME

LINE AND HOW THIS PLAYED OUT

BACK IN 2020 THIS THEORY HAS

NOTHING TO IT BUT PEOPLE ARE SO

CONSPIRACY MINDED THAT THIS IS

RESONATING.

>> IN MY REPLIES IN THE JURY'S

DECISION THERE I STARTED TO SEE

A LOT OF JANUARY 6 WHICH

PRODUCED JANUARY 6 WAS A HOAX

IT'S FBI AS WELL AND THOSE

PEOPLE START TO GET OUT NOW I

THINK YOU'LL END UP BEING --

IT'S A NATIONAL STORY BUT IT

WILL CONTINUE TO BE A NATIONAL

STORY AND POTENTIALLY HAVING

THIS DOMINO EFFECT OF WHAT CAN

TRUST.

AND PEOPLE WHO ARE CONSPIRACY

MINDED WILL FEED INTO THAT MORE

AND SAY WHAT CAN WE TRUST

ANYMORE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT DONALD

TRUMP.

YOU MAY NOT BELIEVE THE STORY

BUT LET'S LOOK AT WHAT MIGHT BE

GOING GOING ON.

>> FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP

HAS ENDORSED LOTS OF CANDIDATES

IN MICHIGAN RUNNING FOR OFFICE

BUT IN THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR'S

RACE TO DEFEAT THE WOMAN FROM

MICHIGAN QUOTE UNQUOTE DONALD

TRUMP HAS BEEN ALL CRICKETS ON

THE ENDORSEMENT FRONT HOWEVER TO

MICHIGAN SOURCES NOW CONTEND

THAT MR. TRUMP WILL ENDORSE THE

REPUBLICAN PRIMARY UNDER THESE

CONDITIONS, POLITICAL AND

CONSULTANT JON YOUNG IS WORKING

TO GET MATTHEW TO PERNOD THE

REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FOR

ATTORNEY GENERAL WHICH MR. TRUMP

WANTS UNDER THIS ALLEGED DEAL IF

HE DELIVERS A NUMBER ANOTHER

MEDICATION FOR DEPRESSION OF THE

FORMER PRESIDENT WILL THEN

DELIVER HIS ENDORSEMENT FOR THE

CLIENT FOR GOVERNOR.

JOHNSON.

I MICHIGAN POLLSTER AND PUNDITS

ARGUE THAT THIS IS A GAME

CHANGER.

>> ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN IT'S

A TEN.

IT DOESN'T GET BIGGER THAN THAT.

>> THE NOMINATION REALLY WILL BE

DECIDED BY AN EVER DONALD TRUMP

ENDORSES AND IF HE ENDORSES

PERRY JOHNSON THEN THAT WILL BE

A VERY SIGNIFICANT EVENT IN THIS

CAMPAIGN.

>> AND POLITICAL PUNDIT BILL

BALLENGER CONCURS.

>> THESE POLLS SHOW THAT

80 PERCENT OF REPUBLICAN PRIMARY

VOTERS WOULD BE MORE INCLINED TO

VOTE FOR CANDIDATE WHO IS

ENDORSED BY TRUMP.

>> MR. TRUMP'S OFFICE HAS NOT

CONFIRMED THE STORY BUT IF TRUE

WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER CANDIDATES

RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, ALL 11?

LOOK COULD THEY BE THINKING?

>> YOU THINK YOU HOPE IT'S NOT

TRUE.

>> YOU THINK IT WOULD SET

SOMETHING IN MOTION THAT COULD

LEAD TO JOHNSON BEING ABLE TO BE

PERCEIVED AS THE FRONT RUNNER.

>> SO IF YOU'RE KEVIN WINKY HER

TUTOR DIXON AND SAUL DONNELL AND

YOU HEAR THE STORY FOR THE FIRST

TIME WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK THEY REALIZE THAT THE

JIG MAY BE UP HERE >> THE TRUMP

ENDORSEMENT OF PERRY JOHNSON WE

WILL KNOW AFTER APRIL 23RD IF

THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

>> WHEN YOU HEARD THIS YOU SAID

IT'S BUBIK IS THAT SHE YOU WHEN

YOU HEARD THE STORIES THAT YOU

THINK IS ON SOMETHING.

>> LOOK COULD BE POSSIBLE?

SURE.

>> DOESN'T THIS SOUND LIKE

DONALD TRUMP AND JON YOUNG?

>> YES AND YES AND IT ALSO

SOUNDS LIKE ANY OF THESE THINGS

MAY BE DONALD TRUMP MAKES A DEAL

UNTIL HE DOESN'T AND IT BUT TO

THE POINT I THINK THERE IS

ABSOLUTELY SOMETHING THERE THAT

WE KNOW ALL OF THE REPUBLICAN

CANDIDATES, ALL 1,472 OF THEM

THERE WILL BE LIKELY IF A FEW

ALASKA IN APRIL 19TH AT

4:00 P.M. BUT ALL OF THEM WANT

THE DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE AT

LEAST IT GETS THEM THROUGH THE

REPUBLICAN PRIMARY BUT WE ALSO

HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT DOES THE

ENDORSEMENT DO COME THE GENERAL?

AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S

SHORTSIGHTED BUT YOU HAVE TO GET

TO THE NEXT ELECTION AND SO OF

COURSE THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE

WANTS P OR ? HAVE BEEN TALKING

ABOUT TUTOR DIXON IT SEEMED LIKE

MAYBE THERE WAS SOME LOVE IS

THERE BUT YES.

>> SHE HAS SO MANY ON HER STAFF

WITH CONNECTIONS TO THE

PRESIDENT THAT ARE THAT COMES

FROM.

>> THAT'S TRUE BUT THE FORMER

PRESIDENT MADE MULTIPLE COMMENTS

THAT ARE GLOWING ABOUT TUTOR

DIXON WHICH IS MORE YOU CAN SAY

FOR.

JOHNSON WHO HE DIDN'T EVEN

RECOGNIZE WHEN HE CAME TO MACOMB

COUNTY.

>> HE RECOGNIZED THEM IN A

FLORIDA SAYING THE POLLING

NUMBERS HAVE BEEN GOOD.

TAKE IT'S HARD TO SAVE IT'S TRUE

OR NOT BUT IF IT IS IT'S NOT

SURPRISING PICK THE PEOPLE TRUMP

HAS BEEN ENDORSING HAS ALWAYS

BEEN A GAME OF HOW IT COULD HELP

HIM EVERYONE HE HAS ENDORSED SO

FAR HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE

HAD AT THE VERY LEAST SKEPTICISM

ABOUT THE 2020 ELECTION AND

THOSE RESULTS AND SOME OF THEM

STRONGLY PULLING IT THESE

CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT TRUMP

HAS SHARED BUT I THINK HE IS

SETTING UP A KINGDOM HERE IN

MICHIGAN THAT WILL BE FOCUSED ON

HIM SHOULD HE DECIDE TO RUN

SHOULD HE POSSIBLY LOSE IN THE

NEXT ELECTION THAT WILL SIDE

WITH HIM WHO WOULD GO ALONG WITH

THAT AS GOVERNOR I GUESS WE

DON'T TOTALLY KNOW IT, TIM MAYBE

YOU KNOW BETTER.

>> WE WILL FIND OUT.

THIS IS THE POINT.

WE WILL KNOW WHETHER THE DEAL

WAS DELIVERED AND HOW THE AG

RACE LOOKS.

>> THERE'S A LOT TO PLAY OUT IN

THIS THIS OVER OUT -- OVERLAPPED

ANOTHER TOPIC THAT COULD COME

OUT HERE THE RECENT COUNTY

DELEGATE CONVENTIONS AND BEFORE

HE MOVED OFF OF THE GOVERNOR

CANDIDATE I WANT TO SAY THIS,

THERE IS DEEP DISSENSION WITHIN

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> HOW GREAT IS THIS FOR US IN

THE NEWS BUSINESS?

WE HAVE HIGH STAKES DRAMA BEFORE

THE HIGH STAKES OF DRAMA BECAUSE

WE HAVE THE HATFIELD AND THE

MCCOYS FIGHTING WITHIN THE

REPUBLICAN PARTY.

GROUND ZERO IS MACOMB COUNTY

HE'S ALL OVER IT OVER THERE AND

YOU HAVE A COUNTY CHAIRMAN FOR

DOUBT YOU HAVE A NEW COUNTY

CHAIRMAN IN.

THE NEW COUNTY CHAIRMAN IS

TRYING TO BRIDGE BOTH SIDES OF

IT BUT HE'S GOING AROUND WE CAN

CALL OTHER RHINOCEROSES ANYMORE

AND WE CAN'T DO THE LITMUS TEST,

ARE YOU TRUMP ENOUGH?

THIS IS GRAND FOR US.

IT IS HIGH DRAMA.

>> THIS WAS ONE OF THE MOST WILD

MEETINGS I COVERED IN MY CAREER.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT REALLY

BELIEVE THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED

STATES IS ON THE LINE ON

APRIL 23RD IN THE SELECTION

AND IN MANY WAYS IT IS SOMETHING

THAT YOU LOVE TO COVER AS A

JOURNALIST BECAUSE REALLY IT IS

A TURNING POINT FOR THE

REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THE PARTIES AT A CROSSROADS.

APRIL 23RD WILL BE THE FIRST

MOMENT WHERE THEY DECIDE WHICH

WAY IT WILL GO.

>> APRIL 23RD IS THE SPRING

NOMINATING CONVENTION WERE ALL

REPUBLICANS GATHER AND PICK THE

AG CANDIDATES AND THEY WILL NOT

PICK A GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE.

THAT IS THAT OF THE PRIMARY BUT

A LOT IS RIDING ON THIS

CONVENTION.

>> NO DOUBT.

MANY PEOPLE SAY THIS IS A LITMUS

TEST FOR SEEING HOW STRONG

TRUMP'S ENDORSEMENT IS HERE IN

MICHIGAN AND WE SAW THAT

CERTAINLY P A ? CAN SPEAK MORE

ABOUT THE CONVENTION BUT LET'S

REMEMBER THAT WHAT HAPPENS ON

THE 23RD IS NOT NECESSARILY

GOING TO TELL US EXACTLY WHAT

WILL HAPPEN TO THE PRIMARY IN

AUGUST BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT

ARE AT THE ZIP -- THESE THESE

CONVENTIONS ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE

SUPER SUPER STRONG REPUBLICANS

AND WHO WE SEE, AND PRIMARIES

WILL ALWAYS BE STRONG

REPUBLICANS OF COURSE THEY WILL

BE THERE AS WELL BUT THERE WILL

BE THIRD-PARTY AND INDEPENDENT

AND THOSE WHO ARE THIS WAY ON

ONE ISSUE BUT COULD GO FOR A

DEMOCRAT AS WELL AND SO I THINK

IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY GIVE US

THE FULL ANSWER ON WHAT HAPPENS

IN AUGUST AND NOVEMBER.

>> DOES A TRUMP ENDORSEMENT MEAN

A TICKET IN OR IS IT A

LIABILITY?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND

SOME EXPERTS SAID THAT IT IS

DECISIVE AND WHAT I AM HEARING

FROM PEOPLE AND SEEING ON THE

GROUND IS THAT IT MAY BE

INFLUENTIAL BUT IT'S NOT

DECISIVE AND THEN YOU LOOK AT

OTHER STATES AND TRUMP IS HAVING

A FEW LOSSES BEING WRAPPED UP

RIGHT NOW AND IN MICHIGAN

SPECIFICALLY THE CHOICE BEFORE A

LOT OF THE REPUBLICANS IS GOING

WITH DONALD TRUMP WHO THEY

SUPPORT IT'S NOT ABOUT ANTI-

TRUMP OR PRO TRUMP BUT HOW MUCH

DO THEY VALUE AND WHO DID THEY

THINK GIVES THEM THE BEST CHANCE

THE GENERAL ELECTION.

THESE REPUBLICANS AT THE END OF

THE DAY WANT TO WIN.

THEY WANT TO BE NESSEL AND

WITMER AND THEY'RE TRYING TO

MAKE A CALCULATION, DO THEY

THINK TRUMP HAS THE RIGHT PATH

OR GOING FOR THE SWING VOTERS IN

THE MIDDLE IS A BETTER PATH?

>> YES AND AT WHAT POINT HAVE

YOU ALMOST GONE TOO FAR ABOUT

PUSHING OUT THE PARK?

AND THERE ARE FOLKS LIKE JEFF

TIMBER WHO IS LIKE YOU SORT OF

UNDERSTAND AND YOU GET.

LIKE HE IS JUST LIKE YOU HAVE

FOLKS CALL MIKE SHARKEY A RINO

RIGHT NOW AND HE'S COMING OUT

ENDORSING TUTOR DIXON SAYING HE

WILL GO AGAINST SOME OF THE

TRUMP ENDORSEMENTS FOR SITTING

CANDIDATES RIGHT NOW AND THE

REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE.

>> BUT THERE MUST BE FRUSTRATION

IN THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE

REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SOME PEOPLE THINK IT IS

ATROPHIED OVER THE YEARS BUT

TERM LEONARD GOING TO DELEGATE

SAYING LOOK IF WE ARE GOING TO

MAKE DANA NESSEL THAN THIS GUY

THAT YOU WANT TO PICK JUST

CANNOT GET IT DONE.

>> AND THE DATA SHOWS THAT THIS

IS NOT MAGICAL THINKING.

LOOK AT 2018 TOM LEONARD CAME

WITHIN IN THREE.

>> EXACTLY.

THAT WAS THE CLOSEST.

TO THE CLOSEST SPREAD OF ALL OF

THOSE STATEWIDE CANDIDATES.

THIS IS NOT THEORETICAL THINKING

WE HAVE SEEN IS MAGICAL OF.

>> MY POINT IS LOGIC WHEN IT

COMES TO SOME TRUMP PEOPLE THE

CRITICS SAY IS NONEXISTENT YOU

CANNOT LOGICALLY REASON WITH

THEM ABOUT THE OUTCOME AND TAKE

THIS TO WHERE IT GOES IN

NOVEMBER.

>> RESOLVE THIS BY GETTING RON

WEISER AND MADDOCK ON THE SHOW

AND GET THEM IN THESE CHAIRS AND

DISCUSS IT WITH THEM.

YOU WON'T COME ON THE SHOW WILL

THEY?

>> WE COULD LOWER THE NATIONAL

DEBT BUT IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

>> I UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY

DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS IT

PUBLICLY.

>> ITS DIRTY WASH.

>> HOW DO YOU WIN IN NOVEMBER

WITH A SPLIT PARTY?

>> THE PEOPLE IN THE PARTY THAT

ARE SUPPORTING THEM THEY DO HAVE

A LOGICAL ARGUMENT.

THEY ARE MAKING AN ARGUMENT.

TOM LEONARD LOST TO NESSEL WE

HAVE SEEN THAT BUT THEY BELIEVE

THAT THEY NEED TO CHASE DOWN

TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN STRATEGY

BECAUSE BASICALLY THE

ESTABLISHMENT DONORS ARE MOVING

AWAY FROM THE PARTY AND THE

PARTY CANNOT COUNT ON THOSE

PEOPLE TO FIND THEM ANYMORE I

THINK THERE IS A DECISION THAT

HAS BEEN MADE LIKE WE NEED THE

GRASSROOT DONORS THAT DONALD

TRUMP UNLOCKED YOU WON'T GET

THOSE IF YOU GO THE USUAL WAY

THAT YOU PLAY THE ELECTIONS.

IT IS AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT

DECISION THAT THE PARTY IS

CAUGHT IN.

EITHER WAY THEY GO THERE WILL BE

PROBLEMS.

>> WILL WE HAVE A BREAK PARTY?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

>> THE DEMOCRATS IT DID HAVE A

CONVENTION AND IT SHOWS WHERE

THEY ARE IN THE RUN DOWN IN THE

STORY WE HAVE TWO MINUTES TO GO

TO WHAT WE LEARN FROM THAT

CONVENTION?

>> THEN NEED ANOTHER CUP OF

COFFEE.

>> THE THINGS WE HAVE KNOWN

BEFORE WHICH IS THAT WE HAVE

JOCELYN BENSON WILL BE THE

SECRETARY OF STATE CANDIDATE,

DANA NESSEL AS ATTORNEY GENERAL

AND GRETCHEN WITMER AND GARLAND

GILCHREST AS GOVERNOR AND

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

WE DID HERE ARE SOME ISSUES

OBVIOUSLY THAT THEY WILL BE

TALKING A LOT ABOUT COMING INTO

THE ELECTION ONE OF WHICH IS

ABORTION RIGHTS.

TWO WEEKS TO GO THREE WEEKS AGO

WE SAW -- NOPE ONE WEEK.

THERE IS NO TIME.

THE GOVERNOR CAME OUT AND SAID

SHE'S USING HER AUTHORITY TO

BRING ABORTION BACK TO THE

FOREFRONT.

>> I HAVE A POSTER THAT SAYS

THIS DECIDES THE RACE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT AND FOR YEARS

AND YEARS IT'S THE ECONOMY AND

THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO TALK

ABOUT THE ECONOMY AND INFLATION

AND THINGS THAT FOLKS ARE

FEELING DAY IN AND DAY OUT EVERY

TIME YOU DRIVE PASS A GAS

STATION HOWEVER, ONCE THE

SUPREME COURT RULES AND IT COULD

BE ANY WEEK NOW BUT THAT COULD

REALLY CHANGE THIS AGAIN FOR

TURN OUT AND FOR ENTHUSIASM

WITHIN THE PARTY.

>> ARE THE DEMOCRATS A GEEK TO

DO THE ELECTION?

>> I THINK THEY ARE ENTHUSED

ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE TWO PARTIES THAT WILL

TALK PASS EACH OTHER.

DEMOCRATS WILL BE FOCUSED ON

ABORTION RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY

BEING AT STAKE AND REPUBLICANS

WILL COUNSELING TRY TO BRING IT

BACK TO THE ECONOMY AND GOOD

LUCK TO ALL OF US TO TRY TO GET

ANY OF US TO ANSWER QUESTIONS

STRAIGHT ON ANY OF THIS.

>> DO WE EXPECT TO SEE JOE BIDEN

HERE CAMPAIGNING WITH THE

GOVERNOR?

>> I THINK HE STARTED DOING THAT

AND THEN YOU KNOW HIS POLL

NUMBERS ARE NOT WHERE THE

MAJORITY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE

AND WE SAW IT DROP OFF LAST TIME

HE WAS HERE IN OCTOBER.

>> SHE WAS NOT THERE SHE WAS IN

CALIFORNIA.

>> A GOOD POINT.

>> MAYBE IT WAS A COINCIDENCE.

>> AND STACY ABRAMS IN GEORGIA

THERE IS A SCHEDULING CONFLICT.

>> IT GOES BACK TO THAT ASSET

AND LIABILITY ISSUE THAT'S THE

BEAUTY OF THE STORY AND WE'LL

SEE HOW THIS THING DEVELOPS

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHT.

HOW MUCH ARE CHARGING ME FOR

THIS?

DO WE NEED GAS MONEY?

>> WE CAN NEGOTIATE.

>> WELCOMED OFF THE RECORD IT SO

NICE TO GET YOU ON BOARD.

EVERYONE HAVE A NICE WEEKEND.

NEXT WEEK MSU JOURNAL STUDENTS

DISCUSSING THE ROCK.

WE WILL SEE YOU THEN.

>> FOR MORE OF THE RECORD VISIT

W K A R .COM.