1 00:00:00,966 --> 00:00:07,400 [ Upbeat music plays ] 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:10,266 >> The only time I ever played 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:11,100 golf before I retired was in 4 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:12,466 1972, and I got a telephone call 5 00:00:10,266 --> 00:00:12,466 from my friend the lawyer, 6 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:12,466 Sarita Waite. 7 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:17,533 The Alameda County Clerk's golf 8 00:00:15,166 --> 00:00:19,433 tournament was coming up, and 9 00:00:17,533 --> 00:00:19,433 she really wanted to play in it. 10 00:00:19,666 --> 00:00:23,700 And she'd gone down to the 11 00:00:20,933 --> 00:00:25,166 clerk's office to register for 12 00:00:22,433 --> 00:00:25,633 it, and they refused her 13 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:27,266 registration 'cause she was a 14 00:00:25,166 --> 00:00:29,033 woman. 15 00:00:25,633 --> 00:00:31,100 She had decided she was gonna 16 00:00:27,266 --> 00:00:32,166 file a lawsuit and asked me if I 17 00:00:29,033 --> 00:00:33,433 would attach my name, and I 18 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:35,166 said, "Of course I will." 19 00:00:32,166 --> 00:00:37,133 But of course that meant I had 20 00:00:33,433 --> 00:00:38,033 to play golf. 21 00:00:35,166 --> 00:00:38,033 So, I went out, and I took one 22 00:00:37,133 --> 00:00:38,033 lesson. 23 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:47,633 Well, the newspapers reported 24 00:00:43,233 --> 00:00:49,566 that Penny Cooper had shot the 25 00:00:45,433 --> 00:00:51,466 highest score ever on the golf 26 00:00:47,633 --> 00:00:52,100 course, with the headline, 27 00:00:49,566 --> 00:00:53,166 "Women Teed Off So Are the 28 00:00:51,466 --> 00:00:53,166 Men." 29 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:53,166 [ Chuckles ] 30 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:13,633 You judge a society by how it 31 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:15,433 treats its worst, and 32 00:01:12,166 --> 00:01:17,500 constitutional rights are 33 00:01:13,633 --> 00:01:19,500 meaningless unless they apply to 34 00:01:15,433 --> 00:01:21,500 the worst in society. 35 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:23,600 I really wanted to be a trial 36 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:25,933 lawyer, and I wanted to fight 37 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:27,333 for the people, and I wanted to 38 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,600 fight for their -- the causes. 39 00:01:25,933 --> 00:01:30,033 I have to say, from the first 40 00:01:27,333 --> 00:01:31,466 day that I walked into the 41 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,166 Public Defender's Office as an 42 00:01:30,033 --> 00:01:35,433 employee, I really thought I'd 43 00:01:31,466 --> 00:01:37,500 died and gone to heaven. 44 00:01:33,166 --> 00:01:39,966 Everybody was just fabulous. 45 00:01:35,433 --> 00:01:41,366 I loved the excitement of 46 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:41,366 figuring out people's problems, 47 00:01:39,966 --> 00:01:41,366 going to court. 48 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,933 >> She was really feisty, and 49 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,000 the clients loved her. 50 00:01:45,933 --> 00:01:47,633 At that time, there were 12 51 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,700 lawyers in the 52 00:01:47,633 --> 00:01:49,833 Public Defender's Office in 53 00:01:48,700 --> 00:01:51,233 Alameda County -- covered the 54 00:01:49,833 --> 00:01:51,233 whole county. 55 00:01:51,466 --> 00:01:56,433 So we learned how to try cases. 56 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:58,466 [ Psychedelic rock music plays ] 57 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:59,966 >> One of the most memorable 58 00:01:56,433 --> 00:02:02,766 cases I had was sort of a tale 59 00:01:58,466 --> 00:02:05,566 of the times. 60 00:01:59,966 --> 00:02:06,933 There was a man in Berkeley who 61 00:02:02,766 --> 00:02:08,366 was charged with possessing LSD, 62 00:02:05,566 --> 00:02:09,633 and he announced to the whole 63 00:02:06,933 --> 00:02:11,133 community that he was going to 64 00:02:08,366 --> 00:02:14,666 be, on a certain day and a 65 00:02:09,633 --> 00:02:16,366 certain time and place, carrying 66 00:02:11,133 --> 00:02:17,800 LSD in his cross on his neck. 67 00:02:14,666 --> 00:02:20,866 And of course he did that, and 68 00:02:16,366 --> 00:02:22,600 he was promptly arrested. 69 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:24,266 And I was assigned his case. 70 00:02:20,866 --> 00:02:26,666 During the trial, the prosecutor 71 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:28,400 asked why he was carrying this 72 00:02:24,266 --> 00:02:29,866 LSD in his cross, and 73 00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:32,066 "Charlie Brown" Ortman said, 74 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,366 "Well, I heard voices." 75 00:02:29,866 --> 00:02:35,333 And Stacey Walthall said to him, 76 00:02:32,066 --> 00:02:37,333 "You hear voices? 77 00:02:33,366 --> 00:02:38,133 Are you hearing voices now?" 78 00:02:35,333 --> 00:02:39,800 And I yelled out, "Objection! 79 00:02:37,333 --> 00:02:41,266 Hearsay!" 80 00:02:38,133 --> 00:02:43,000 And that was just a huge hoot, 81 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:45,000 you know, made the papers, 82 00:02:41,266 --> 00:02:45,000 softened the judge, and he just 83 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,000 got a tongue-lashing. 84 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,866 [ Soft music plays ] 85 00:02:49,666 --> 00:02:54,233 I grew up in Denver, Colorado, 86 00:02:51,233 --> 00:02:55,766 and I became very much aware of 87 00:02:52,866 --> 00:02:56,666 the fact that I was Jewish 88 00:02:54,233 --> 00:02:58,600 because I was singled out for 89 00:02:55,766 --> 00:03:00,500 it. 90 00:02:56,666 --> 00:03:01,500 Myself and the only other Jewish 91 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,933 kid in the class, we were sort 92 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:04,733 of segregated. 93 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:05,500 All the other kids sat 94 00:03:02,933 --> 00:03:06,766 alphabetically but myself and 95 00:03:04,733 --> 00:03:08,666 my friend. 96 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:11,566 We sat at the back. 97 00:03:06,766 --> 00:03:13,166 I did go to religious school, 98 00:03:08,666 --> 00:03:14,766 which required me to get from 99 00:03:11,566 --> 00:03:16,166 school onto a yellow school bus 100 00:03:13,166 --> 00:03:17,666 with Hebrew letters on the side 101 00:03:14,766 --> 00:03:19,200 every Wednesday afternoon. 102 00:03:16,166 --> 00:03:21,333 And everybody would see us on 103 00:03:17,666 --> 00:03:22,800 this weird bus that had these 104 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,200 Hebrew letters. 105 00:03:21,333 --> 00:03:25,633 My father was born in Poland and 106 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,666 came over to the United States 107 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,500 when he was about six, with his 108 00:03:25,633 --> 00:03:30,633 family. 109 00:03:26,666 --> 00:03:32,833 They were extremely poor. 110 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:35,000 His father basically sold rags 111 00:03:30,633 --> 00:03:36,866 from a horse cart. 112 00:03:32,833 --> 00:03:38,500 My mother's father was a tailor, 113 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,500 and he had a tailor shop in 114 00:03:36,866 --> 00:03:38,500 Downtown Denver. 115 00:03:42,466 --> 00:03:46,933 My dad did not have a 116 00:03:43,733 --> 00:03:48,100 high-school education, and 117 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:49,300 neither of my parents had a 118 00:03:46,933 --> 00:03:50,666 college education. 119 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:51,800 They were of the era that 120 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:53,733 believed that everything they 121 00:03:50,666 --> 00:03:56,366 did should be for their 122 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:58,600 children. 123 00:03:53,733 --> 00:04:00,700 My dad decided, when he was in 124 00:03:56,366 --> 00:04:02,266 his mid 30s, to enlist in 125 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,700 World War II. 126 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:05,200 And the reason he did that, even 127 00:04:02,266 --> 00:04:06,633 though he had two children at 128 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:08,300 the time, was he felt like the 129 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:11,700 Jews weren't doing enough for 130 00:04:06,633 --> 00:04:14,133 the World War II effort. 131 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:16,766 And he lost his leg. 132 00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:18,166 The amputees were awarded the 133 00:04:14,133 --> 00:04:19,733 first Hydra-Matic Oldsmobile car 134 00:04:16,766 --> 00:04:20,866 so they could drive a car 135 00:04:18,166 --> 00:04:22,533 without having to shift gears 136 00:04:19,733 --> 00:04:24,066 and use the clutch. 137 00:04:20,866 --> 00:04:26,566 And that was a big highlight in 138 00:04:22,533 --> 00:04:26,566 our neighborhood, our little 139 00:04:24,066 --> 00:04:26,566 blue Hydra-Matic Oldsmobile. 140 00:04:27,733 --> 00:04:31,600 I got a scholarship to the 141 00:04:28,933 --> 00:04:34,333 University of Colorado because 142 00:04:30,333 --> 00:04:36,833 my parents really couldn't 143 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:38,266 afford an out-of-state college. 144 00:04:34,333 --> 00:04:39,733 And I had always loved 145 00:04:36,833 --> 00:04:41,200 San Francisco and the Bay Area 146 00:04:38,266 --> 00:04:42,066 because my aunt and uncle lived 147 00:04:39,733 --> 00:04:43,500 here and this is where we would 148 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,866 go on vacations. 149 00:04:42,066 --> 00:04:46,100 It was always that bright spot 150 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:47,966 at the end of the road, and I 151 00:04:44,866 --> 00:04:47,966 just thought this was the 152 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:47,966 greatest place in the world. 153 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,833 Following graduation, I came out 154 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:57,166 to Berkeley to go to law school. 155 00:04:53,833 --> 00:04:57,166 I was at Boalt from '61 to '64. 156 00:05:00,733 --> 00:05:05,233 The school was headed by 157 00:05:02,066 --> 00:05:06,800 Dean William Prosser, who had 158 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:07,766 written the key textbook on 159 00:05:05,233 --> 00:05:09,466 torts, and he was nationally 160 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,966 famous. 161 00:05:07,766 --> 00:05:11,400 And he didn't believe that women 162 00:05:09,466 --> 00:05:13,033 should be in a law school at 163 00:05:10,966 --> 00:05:13,866 all. 164 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,566 He would just make fun of women 165 00:05:13,033 --> 00:05:17,300 in the class. 166 00:05:13,866 --> 00:05:19,166 So he announced very early on 167 00:05:15,566 --> 00:05:20,933 that he was going to treat the 168 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:22,700 men and women equally, and in my 169 00:05:19,166 --> 00:05:24,400 section, there were like 85 men 170 00:05:20,933 --> 00:05:26,200 and 3 women, and he said, "I'm 171 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:27,133 just gonna call on you, 'man, 172 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,166 woman, man, woman,'" and that's 173 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,800 how he did it. 174 00:05:27,133 --> 00:05:32,000 And then he would say, "Stand up 175 00:05:29,166 --> 00:05:32,833 like a man and answer the 176 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,866 question." 177 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:38,033 It's hard to be a 178 00:05:32,833 --> 00:05:39,500 criminal-defense lawyer. 179 00:05:35,866 --> 00:05:40,900 Really, everybody's against you. 180 00:05:38,033 --> 00:05:42,433 And you have to have a certain 181 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:44,566 resilience and, I believe, a 182 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:44,566 certain sense of humor in order 183 00:05:42,433 --> 00:05:44,566 to be successful. 184 00:05:45,966 --> 00:05:52,700 I was in court, and the opposing 185 00:05:48,766 --> 00:05:53,900 district attorney was somebody 186 00:05:50,766 --> 00:05:56,000 who had been in my law-school 187 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:57,733 class. 188 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:59,333 And while I was arguing a point 189 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,133 in front of the judge, he yelled 190 00:05:57,733 --> 00:06:01,666 out to the judge, "Don't mind 191 00:05:59,333 --> 00:06:04,100 her, Judge. 192 00:06:00,133 --> 00:06:07,400 She's on the rag." 193 00:06:01,666 --> 00:06:08,700 And I just was really...floored 194 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:10,533 and said, "First of all, 195 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,900 Judge, it's not true. 196 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:13,566 And secondly, he should be held 197 00:06:10,533 --> 00:06:14,466 in contempt for this." 198 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:14,466 And the judge just brushed it 199 00:06:13,566 --> 00:06:14,466 off. 200 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,266 >> [ Chanting ] Hell no! 201 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:19,166 We won't go! 202 00:06:17,266 --> 00:06:20,966 >> The anti-war movement was 203 00:06:19,166 --> 00:06:22,233 rampant all around the Bay Area, 204 00:06:20,966 --> 00:06:25,633 everywhere else, too. 205 00:06:22,233 --> 00:06:28,033 And about seven or eight of us, 206 00:06:25,633 --> 00:06:29,533 at least, decided to march in an 207 00:06:28,033 --> 00:06:31,466 anti-war parade in 208 00:06:29,533 --> 00:06:33,300 San Francisco. 209 00:06:31,466 --> 00:06:35,266 John Nunes, who was the public 210 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:36,666 defender, called the group of us 211 00:06:35,266 --> 00:06:36,666 into the office. 212 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:41,800 I remember his quote. 213 00:06:38,066 --> 00:06:43,366 >> "I'll take steps," meaning he 214 00:06:40,133 --> 00:06:45,200 was gonna try to fire us. 215 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,066 >> For exercising our civil 216 00:06:43,366 --> 00:06:48,600 rights, which is what we were in 217 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:51,200 business for! 218 00:06:46,066 --> 00:06:52,633 >> And from that point on, the 219 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:54,900 jobs that I was given were less 220 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:57,133 than desirable. 221 00:06:52,633 --> 00:06:58,766 I had been dating Jim Newhouse. 222 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:59,300 We were very close, and we were 223 00:06:57,133 --> 00:07:00,733 both very much aligned on this 224 00:06:58,766 --> 00:07:02,466 issue. 225 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:04,866 And we had sort of made 226 00:07:00,733 --> 00:07:07,033 tentative plans that we would go 227 00:07:02,466 --> 00:07:09,800 out on our own eventually. 228 00:07:04,866 --> 00:07:11,266 We opened our private practice 229 00:07:07,033 --> 00:07:11,800 in March of 1969. 230 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,833 Two weeks later, "People's Park" 231 00:07:11,266 --> 00:07:14,733 hit. 232 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,466 [ Sirens wailing, indistinct 233 00:07:13,833 --> 00:07:19,000 shouting ] 234 00:07:14,733 --> 00:07:20,233 So Jim and I went to this church 235 00:07:17,466 --> 00:07:21,566 where all of the "People's Park" 236 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,300 defendants had gathered. 237 00:07:20,233 --> 00:07:25,166 And we basically told these 238 00:07:21,566 --> 00:07:26,366 people that, if they wanted to 239 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:28,600 hire us, we would do their cases 240 00:07:25,166 --> 00:07:30,266 for $100. 241 00:07:26,366 --> 00:07:31,833 And the firms in San Francisco 242 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,333 were charging $1,500. 243 00:07:30,266 --> 00:07:34,833 So we got about a hundred 244 00:07:31,833 --> 00:07:36,100 clients our first month. 245 00:07:33,333 --> 00:07:37,700 We were always able to get the 246 00:07:34,833 --> 00:07:39,433 charges down to something 247 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:41,166 reasonable so that their futures 248 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:42,800 weren't affected. 249 00:07:39,433 --> 00:07:44,433 We would come to court on Monday 250 00:07:41,166 --> 00:07:46,166 mornings to discuss cases, and 251 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,700 we would go into chambers, and 252 00:07:44,433 --> 00:07:48,433 everybody would be talking about 253 00:07:46,166 --> 00:07:49,933 the football games -- every 254 00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:51,533 single guy. 255 00:07:48,433 --> 00:07:53,033 And I felt I was really at a 256 00:07:49,933 --> 00:07:54,500 disadvantage not knowing about 257 00:07:51,533 --> 00:07:56,100 football, so I talked to Jim 258 00:07:53,033 --> 00:07:58,633 about it, and we got season 259 00:07:54,500 --> 00:08:00,366 tickets to the Oakland Raiders 260 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:01,900 so that I could talk football. 261 00:07:58,633 --> 00:08:03,566 And then I learned baseball and 262 00:08:00,366 --> 00:08:05,166 all of it, and now I actually 263 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:06,733 enjoy watching it all the time, 264 00:08:03,566 --> 00:08:08,233 and I talk baseball, football, 265 00:08:05,166 --> 00:08:09,866 basketball with all the guys. 266 00:08:06,733 --> 00:08:11,066 Eventually, Jim got a 267 00:08:08,233 --> 00:08:13,033 girlfriend, and I got a 268 00:08:09,866 --> 00:08:15,100 girlfriend, too. 269 00:08:11,066 --> 00:08:17,233 And I had finally come out. 270 00:08:13,033 --> 00:08:20,400 And we continued to practice 271 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:22,133 together, but eventually, his 272 00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:23,833 interest was more where his 273 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,433 girlfriend was, which was in the 274 00:08:22,133 --> 00:08:28,366 southern part of the county and 275 00:08:23,833 --> 00:08:31,066 in Carmel. 276 00:08:25,433 --> 00:08:31,066 And my interest was in making a 277 00:08:28,366 --> 00:08:31,066 big career here in the East Bay. 278 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:35,700 >> Her mother adored her, and I 279 00:08:33,533 --> 00:08:37,700 think she probably had a very 280 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:41,266 strong foundation, and she 281 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:42,666 became a very confident person 282 00:08:41,266 --> 00:08:42,666 early on. 283 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:48,733 >> Never bothered her a whit to 284 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:50,166 go wherever you had to go, and 285 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:51,500 she'd just...go. 286 00:08:48,733 --> 00:08:52,400 She goes to Puerto Rico, goes 287 00:08:50,166 --> 00:08:53,700 into court, and everybody's 288 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,933 talking Spanish. 289 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,166 And she -- "Wait a second. 290 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:57,700 I thought this was a U.S. 291 00:08:54,933 --> 00:08:59,466 Federal District Court?" 292 00:08:56,166 --> 00:09:00,833 So she calls the associate 293 00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:02,100 counselor and says, "You better 294 00:08:59,466 --> 00:09:03,333 get your ass into chambers here 295 00:09:00,833 --> 00:09:04,333 'cause these people are talking 296 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:06,066 Spanish and I don't know what 297 00:09:03,333 --> 00:09:07,766 they're talking about." 298 00:09:04,333 --> 00:09:09,600 >> The judge said to me, "And, 299 00:09:06,066 --> 00:09:11,333 Ms. Cooper, the next time you 300 00:09:07,766 --> 00:09:12,300 return to my courtroom, you will 301 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,000 wear a dress." 302 00:09:11,333 --> 00:09:15,566 And so I did. 303 00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:17,333 And I stood in front of the 304 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,633 judge who pronounced the 305 00:09:15,566 --> 00:09:20,700 judgment upon my client of a 306 00:09:17,333 --> 00:09:21,633 year in jail. 307 00:09:18,633 --> 00:09:23,300 I said, "But, Judge, I wore a 308 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:24,866 dress for you." 309 00:09:21,633 --> 00:09:26,400 And he looked down, and he saw 310 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:28,033 the dress, and he said, "That's 311 00:09:24,866 --> 00:09:29,066 right, Ms. Cooper," banged his 312 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,266 hand down, and said, "That'll be 313 00:09:28,033 --> 00:09:32,700 six months." 314 00:09:29,066 --> 00:09:32,700 The last time I wore a dress in 315 00:09:31,266 --> 00:09:32,700 the courtroom. 316 00:09:34,766 --> 00:09:36,133 [ Soft music plays ] 317 00:09:47,266 --> 00:09:54,766 It just was a natural sort of 318 00:09:49,133 --> 00:09:56,366 evolution for me, realizing that 319 00:09:51,266 --> 00:09:57,433 I was really more attracted and 320 00:09:54,766 --> 00:09:59,466 much more companionable with a 321 00:09:56,366 --> 00:10:01,466 woman. 322 00:09:57,433 --> 00:10:03,366 Coming out to my close friends 323 00:09:59,466 --> 00:10:05,133 was difficult, and one of the 324 00:10:01,466 --> 00:10:06,000 women who was a part of this 325 00:10:03,366 --> 00:10:07,866 group was just absolutely 326 00:10:05,133 --> 00:10:09,600 horrified. 327 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,166 And she just said, "Oh, my God. 328 00:10:07,866 --> 00:10:11,800 I just feel so sorry for you, 329 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,866 Penny. 330 00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:15,866 I feel so sorry for you. 331 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,633 I think your problem is you just 332 00:10:13,866 --> 00:10:19,466 haven't met the right guy yet." 333 00:10:15,866 --> 00:10:21,400 And I really enjoy this story 334 00:10:17,633 --> 00:10:23,300 because right now she's on her 335 00:10:19,466 --> 00:10:23,300 fifth husband, so apparently she 336 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,300 hasn't met the right guy either. 337 00:10:23,533 --> 00:10:27,000 >> I met Penny because we had 338 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,866 this mutual friend who thought 339 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,700 we would like each other 'cause 340 00:10:28,866 --> 00:10:32,500 we were the only two people she 341 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:34,400 knew that were both interested 342 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:34,400 in contemporary Italian design. 343 00:10:34,633 --> 00:10:38,733 >> And we realized that our 344 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:39,800 common interest in contemporary 345 00:10:37,366 --> 00:10:42,766 art was one of the ties that 346 00:10:38,733 --> 00:10:44,533 bound us. 347 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,933 And we were becoming really 348 00:10:42,766 --> 00:10:47,466 consumed by it, so we would read 349 00:10:44,533 --> 00:10:48,133 magazines, we would go to 350 00:10:45,933 --> 00:10:49,833 museums, and we would go to 351 00:10:47,466 --> 00:10:51,300 exhibits. 352 00:10:48,133 --> 00:10:52,266 And we decided that it would be 353 00:10:49,833 --> 00:10:52,266 important to support women 354 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:52,266 artists. 355 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,733 We've been together 36 years. 356 00:10:57,233 --> 00:11:02,033 We chose to get married the 357 00:10:58,833 --> 00:11:03,433 first day that it was officially 358 00:11:00,733 --> 00:11:03,433 legal in the state of 359 00:11:02,033 --> 00:11:03,433 California. 360 00:11:18,733 --> 00:11:24,700 Our collection is a mix of what 361 00:11:20,733 --> 00:11:26,700 you would call emerging artists, 362 00:11:22,833 --> 00:11:29,366 mid-career artists, and many 363 00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:30,700 artists who've reached heights 364 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:32,433 of any artist's career. 365 00:11:29,366 --> 00:11:34,033 Our collecting would be 366 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:35,766 circumscribed by how well I had 367 00:11:32,433 --> 00:11:37,466 done that year 'cause often I 368 00:11:34,033 --> 00:11:39,200 waited till the end of the year 369 00:11:35,766 --> 00:11:41,566 to see if we had any money that 370 00:11:37,466 --> 00:11:41,566 we could spare, and whatever we 371 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,566 had, we used to buy art with. 372 00:11:46,666 --> 00:11:51,200 >> My role with Penny has really 373 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,066 shifted a lot over the years. 374 00:11:49,266 --> 00:11:55,000 When she was working, you know, 375 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,133 a million hours a week, I would 376 00:11:53,066 --> 00:11:57,766 take care of a lot of the things 377 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,700 around the house. 378 00:11:56,133 --> 00:12:00,433 >> I would usually go to court 379 00:11:57,766 --> 00:12:01,866 in the morning. 380 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:03,466 And then, at noon, I would show 381 00:12:00,433 --> 00:12:05,133 up in the office, wait for 382 00:12:01,866 --> 00:12:06,966 clients, and handle all those 383 00:12:03,466 --> 00:12:08,800 matters, and then back in the 384 00:12:05,133 --> 00:12:09,433 office after afternoon court and 385 00:12:06,966 --> 00:12:10,833 normally in the office till 7:00 386 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,033 or 8:00. 387 00:12:09,433 --> 00:12:15,266 I worked most weekends. 388 00:12:10,833 --> 00:12:17,400 I worked lots of nights all the 389 00:12:13,033 --> 00:12:19,366 time because I had a lot of work 390 00:12:15,266 --> 00:12:21,100 and I was really interested in 391 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,800 being over-prepared. 392 00:12:19,366 --> 00:12:24,700 >> I'd really never been with 393 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:27,233 anybody that had worked such 394 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,900 long hours, and it gave me a lot 395 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:29,633 of time to be by myself, which I 396 00:12:27,233 --> 00:12:31,300 love. 397 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:32,700 >> Rena is a published poet, and 398 00:12:29,633 --> 00:12:34,233 there was never enough time for 399 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:35,833 Rena to be able to write. 400 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:37,266 >> No matter how hard or long 401 00:12:34,233 --> 00:12:38,900 Penny worked, she loved to sit 402 00:12:35,833 --> 00:12:40,100 down and have a really nice 403 00:12:37,266 --> 00:12:42,966 dinner, and we'd talk about the 404 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:44,933 day. 405 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:46,466 And I loved her energy. 406 00:12:42,966 --> 00:12:48,166 >> I had been asked to represent 407 00:12:44,933 --> 00:12:49,400 the great ceramic artist 408 00:12:46,466 --> 00:12:51,200 Peter Voulkos, who had some 409 00:12:48,166 --> 00:12:52,833 issues with drugs. 410 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,566 In lieu of paying a fee, I asked 411 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,166 him to give me a piece of his 412 00:12:52,833 --> 00:12:57,733 work which I thought was really 413 00:12:54,566 --> 00:12:59,433 beautiful, called a "stack." 414 00:12:56,166 --> 00:13:01,200 It was a huge ceramic piece. 415 00:12:57,733 --> 00:13:02,833 After I had the piece for a few 416 00:12:59,433 --> 00:13:04,433 years, I decided that it didn't 417 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:06,100 fit in our collection because 418 00:13:02,833 --> 00:13:06,966 it wasn't a piece by a woman, 419 00:13:04,433 --> 00:13:08,666 and I also became aware of the 420 00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:11,300 fact that the 421 00:13:06,966 --> 00:13:12,900 Berkeley Art Museum did not own 422 00:13:08,666 --> 00:13:14,133 a piece of this incredible 423 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:15,400 artist's work. 424 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:16,700 So I donated the piece to the 425 00:13:14,133 --> 00:13:18,100 Berkeley Art Museum, and soon 426 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,100 after that, I was invited to be 427 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:18,100 on the board. 428 00:13:18,333 --> 00:13:22,466 >> Back in 1994, I wanted to do 429 00:13:21,166 --> 00:13:24,266 an exhibition that was 430 00:13:22,466 --> 00:13:25,900 potentially controversial on the 431 00:13:24,266 --> 00:13:27,366 theme of the resonance of gay 432 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:29,266 and lesbian experience in 433 00:13:27,366 --> 00:13:29,266 20th-century American culture. 434 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:33,300 There had been very little 435 00:13:30,666 --> 00:13:33,733 occasion for museums in America 436 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:35,166 to look at this particular 437 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:36,600 theme. 438 00:13:33,733 --> 00:13:37,533 You know, who's gonna put their 439 00:13:35,166 --> 00:13:39,400 money behind an exhibition like 440 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:41,133 this? 441 00:13:37,533 --> 00:13:43,033 And spontaneously, Penny Cooper 442 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:44,300 said, "If you can't raise the 443 00:13:41,133 --> 00:13:47,166 money from other sources, I will 444 00:13:43,033 --> 00:13:49,300 underwrite this exhibition." 445 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:51,700 And I just remember feeling so 446 00:13:47,166 --> 00:13:53,166 relieved and so grateful and 447 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:55,433 thinking, "This is precisely how 448 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:57,500 trustees should behave." 449 00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:58,766 You always want to be with Penny 450 00:13:55,433 --> 00:14:00,233 because she's just gonna help 451 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,233 you get through. 452 00:13:58,766 --> 00:14:00,233 [ Folk music plays ] 453 00:14:02,033 --> 00:14:07,333 >> There's nothing I like better 454 00:14:04,066 --> 00:14:08,333 than seeing art with Penny. 455 00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,800 >> I've always really loved 456 00:14:07,333 --> 00:14:11,800 contemporary art. 457 00:14:08,333 --> 00:14:14,200 I love contemporary artists. 458 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,100 I love their thoughts. 459 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:17,000 I love the way they approach 460 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,933 issues. 461 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:20,500 I love the way they translate 462 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,166 what they think onto whatever 463 00:14:18,933 --> 00:14:23,666 their surface might be. 464 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:25,400 Artist's way of thinking is 465 00:14:22,166 --> 00:14:26,533 really almost completely 466 00:14:23,666 --> 00:14:28,066 opposite from the way that I 467 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,066 learned to think. 468 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:28,066 [ Up-tempo symphony plays ] 469 00:14:35,733 --> 00:14:37,833 >> I had been at the 470 00:14:36,466 --> 00:14:39,100 Federal Public Defender's Office 471 00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:40,966 for two years, and I was gonna 472 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,700 go out somewhere, and I thought 473 00:14:40,966 --> 00:14:44,366 I was gonna go with this very 474 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:45,400 well-respected criminal-law 475 00:14:44,366 --> 00:14:46,766 firm. 476 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,200 She said, "Come on over to my 477 00:14:46,766 --> 00:14:49,633 house for dinner," and we did a 478 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,033 lot of talking and laughing and 479 00:14:49,633 --> 00:14:51,033 hanging out. 480 00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:53,633 And at the end of it, she said, 481 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,266 "You shouldn't go with those 482 00:14:53,333 --> 00:14:56,666 guys. 483 00:14:53,633 --> 00:14:58,233 You should come with me. 484 00:14:55,266 --> 00:14:59,833 Come with my firm, and in a 485 00:14:56,666 --> 00:15:01,700 year, I'll make you a partner." 486 00:14:58,233 --> 00:15:03,633 >> There is a 15-year age 487 00:14:59,833 --> 00:15:06,900 difference, and that made it 488 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:08,766 really good for me also because 489 00:15:03,633 --> 00:15:10,433 I really had an intense desire 490 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:11,733 to pass on what I knew could 491 00:15:08,766 --> 00:15:12,433 happen in the courtroom. 492 00:15:10,433 --> 00:15:13,766 >> So, I didn't do any cases or 493 00:15:11,733 --> 00:15:15,033 anything else. 494 00:15:12,433 --> 00:15:16,633 I just went where Penny went for 495 00:15:13,766 --> 00:15:18,433 a month. 496 00:15:15,033 --> 00:15:18,933 Wherever we went, everybody 497 00:15:16,633 --> 00:15:20,666 would brighten up because Penny 498 00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:22,900 came. 499 00:15:18,933 --> 00:15:24,666 Because she'd be talking about 500 00:15:20,666 --> 00:15:26,833 sports or telling a story about 501 00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:28,900 a client or remembering 502 00:15:24,666 --> 00:15:30,700 something funny that happened, 503 00:15:26,833 --> 00:15:33,100 and in the meantime, she was 504 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:34,233 getting what she wanted. 505 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:36,633 And she could, in an instant, 506 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:38,366 get tough. 507 00:15:34,233 --> 00:15:40,033 >> She would often say, you 508 00:15:36,633 --> 00:15:41,766 know, "The prosecutor, I mean, 509 00:15:38,366 --> 00:15:43,366 he's lying through his teeth. 510 00:15:40,033 --> 00:15:45,233 I mean, it's unbelievable what 511 00:15:41,766 --> 00:15:46,933 they're getting away with." 512 00:15:43,366 --> 00:15:48,500 You know, so by the time I go to 513 00:15:45,233 --> 00:15:50,366 court with her, I've just got 514 00:15:46,933 --> 00:15:52,100 steam blowing out my ears. 515 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:53,766 And we march into court, and the 516 00:15:50,366 --> 00:15:54,600 next thing, I look around, and 517 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:56,566 she's got her arm around the 518 00:15:53,766 --> 00:15:58,000 prosecutor. 519 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,766 You know, everybody else's blood 520 00:15:56,566 --> 00:16:01,400 pressure is up to 200. 521 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,400 [ Up-tempo drums beating ] 522 00:15:59,766 --> 00:16:01,400 [ Ethereal music plays ] 523 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:16,600 >> I think of Penny as like a 524 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:19,600 very friendly older sister to me 525 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,900 or like an aunt that was very 526 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,533 doting on me. 527 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,300 And yet, at the same time, I 528 00:16:23,533 --> 00:16:27,033 could never really turn my back 529 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:30,000 to her, because she would slit 530 00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:32,066 my throat in a nanosecond if I 531 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,966 didn't give her everything that 532 00:16:32,066 --> 00:16:34,300 she wanted. 533 00:16:32,966 --> 00:16:36,433 The case was 534 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:40,333 People v. Dan Mackay. 535 00:16:36,433 --> 00:16:41,933 Dan Mackay was a nice guy, 536 00:16:40,333 --> 00:16:43,500 Mormon guy, who beat his wife to 537 00:16:41,933 --> 00:16:46,100 death with a baseball bat. 538 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:47,866 >> She was a very heavyset 539 00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:47,866 woman. 540 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:52,733 He loved her. 541 00:16:48,966 --> 00:16:54,666 He loved her anyway she looked. 542 00:16:50,866 --> 00:16:55,766 But she decided at one point in 543 00:16:52,733 --> 00:16:57,566 her life, in her early 40s, that 544 00:16:54,666 --> 00:16:59,366 she was too fat. 545 00:16:55,766 --> 00:17:01,200 And she took these drugs, and 546 00:16:57,566 --> 00:17:02,000 according to her, it made her 547 00:16:59,366 --> 00:17:03,566 really want to have sex with 548 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,200 young men. 549 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,866 They were just totally steeped 550 00:17:03,566 --> 00:17:08,500 in the Mormon religion, and this 551 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,000 really began to drive him crazy. 552 00:17:06,866 --> 00:17:11,300 She announced to my client that 553 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,933 she was gonna take the kids. 554 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,566 They were in an upstairs 555 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:14,966 bathroom. 556 00:17:11,933 --> 00:17:14,966 The kids were all off at church 557 00:17:13,566 --> 00:17:14,966 in the morning. 558 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,433 And he found himself in a wild 559 00:17:18,466 --> 00:17:22,533 rage, looked in the closet. 560 00:17:20,433 --> 00:17:24,033 He saw a bat, took a bat, and 561 00:17:22,533 --> 00:17:25,700 beat the hell out of her. 562 00:17:24,033 --> 00:17:27,466 And then he took her body -- 563 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,866 dead body -- and he wrapped it 564 00:17:27,466 --> 00:17:31,000 in a sleeping bag. 565 00:17:28,866 --> 00:17:32,733 And he drops the body off, and 566 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,500 then he pulls off to the side of 567 00:17:32,733 --> 00:17:36,100 the road, whereupon he's seen by 568 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:37,800 a Highway Patrol officer, who 569 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:39,266 sees blood coming down the rear 570 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,266 bumper of the car. 571 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,733 So it was really irrational what 572 00:17:40,933 --> 00:17:44,533 he did, and it was really 573 00:17:42,166 --> 00:17:45,666 terrible. 574 00:17:42,733 --> 00:17:47,333 >> She just says, "Look, this is 575 00:17:44,533 --> 00:17:49,800 what I'm gonna do. 576 00:17:45,666 --> 00:17:51,900 This is how I'm gonna drive a 577 00:17:47,333 --> 00:17:51,900 truck through your case." 578 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,900 And she proceeds to do that. 579 00:17:54,066 --> 00:18:00,366 >> And he confesses in a 580 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:02,066 statement that's about two or 581 00:17:58,566 --> 00:18:03,766 three hours long, that would 582 00:18:00,366 --> 00:18:06,333 make anybody start sobbing. 583 00:18:02,066 --> 00:18:07,533 >> My last name is Pinney -- 584 00:18:03,766 --> 00:18:08,866 P-I-N-N-E-Y. 585 00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:09,766 So it's like Penny Cooper and 586 00:18:07,533 --> 00:18:09,766 Paul Pinney -- There's all these 587 00:18:08,866 --> 00:18:09,766 P's. 588 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,833 And we had all these lengthy, 589 00:18:12,033 --> 00:18:15,900 lengthy interviews with 590 00:18:13,833 --> 00:18:17,233 Dan Mackay that went on for 591 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,933 literally hours. 592 00:18:17,233 --> 00:18:20,633 And so I would excise portions 593 00:18:18,933 --> 00:18:21,133 of those and play those to the 594 00:18:20,633 --> 00:18:22,900 jury. 595 00:18:21,133 --> 00:18:23,766 So in her closing argument, she 596 00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:25,233 would call me 597 00:18:23,766 --> 00:18:26,200 "Pick-and-Choose Pinney." 598 00:18:25,233 --> 00:18:27,700 She said, "He's 599 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,700 'Pick-and-Choose Pinney.' 600 00:18:27,933 --> 00:18:31,333 He doesn't show you the whole 601 00:18:29,366 --> 00:18:33,500 thing." 602 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:35,433 And I argued forcefully for 603 00:18:31,333 --> 00:18:37,433 first-degree murder. 604 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:38,966 As it was, the jury came back 605 00:18:35,433 --> 00:18:40,233 with a voluntary manslaughter. 606 00:18:37,433 --> 00:18:40,233 She has good powers of 607 00:18:38,966 --> 00:18:40,233 persuasion. 608 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,633 [ Mid-tempo rock music plays ] 609 00:18:42,433 --> 00:18:47,266 >> We had a lot of clients who 610 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,100 would be impressed if you looked 611 00:18:45,633 --> 00:18:49,100 good, if you had a nice new suit 612 00:18:47,266 --> 00:18:49,100 on, or if you drove a fancy car. 613 00:18:49,333 --> 00:18:52,166 >> I remember being really, 614 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,600 really super young, and I wasn't 615 00:18:52,166 --> 00:18:54,700 quite sure what she did for a 616 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,700 living. 617 00:18:54,933 --> 00:19:00,133 We got off the freeway to get 618 00:18:56,533 --> 00:19:01,700 gas in the middle of nowhere on 619 00:18:58,266 --> 00:19:02,633 our way up to the Oregon border, 620 00:19:00,133 --> 00:19:04,533 and there were probably 500 621 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:05,500 motorcyclists. 622 00:19:02,633 --> 00:19:07,700 Turns out they were a bunch of 623 00:19:04,533 --> 00:19:08,866 Hells Angels. 624 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:10,933 They looked kind of mean, and I 625 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:12,633 was terrified. 626 00:19:08,866 --> 00:19:14,666 In typical Penny fashion, she 627 00:19:10,933 --> 00:19:16,533 gets out of her bright red 628 00:19:12,633 --> 00:19:17,833 Mercedes, looks over at about 20 629 00:19:14,666 --> 00:19:19,500 of them, and says, "Hi, boys. 630 00:19:16,533 --> 00:19:21,100 Thanks for my car." 631 00:19:17,833 --> 00:19:22,733 Later she tells me that was the 632 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:24,800 beginning of her great career, 633 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:26,566 representing the Hells Angels, 634 00:19:22,733 --> 00:19:28,566 and they paid for her car. 635 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,333 >> It was a huge trial, and 636 00:19:26,566 --> 00:19:31,933 there was lots of publicity, and 637 00:19:28,566 --> 00:19:33,500 it kind of launched me into 638 00:19:30,333 --> 00:19:33,500 another space. 639 00:19:31,933 --> 00:19:33,500 [ Rock music continues ] 640 00:19:43,733 --> 00:19:50,533 I had a name, Cooper, which 641 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:52,200 didn't strike people at first as 642 00:19:48,466 --> 00:19:53,866 being necessarily Jewish. 643 00:19:50,533 --> 00:19:55,000 And I can remember one time at a 644 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,533 celebratory party after somebody 645 00:19:53,866 --> 00:19:59,100 had a victory in the 646 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:01,266 Public Defender's Office, and 647 00:19:56,533 --> 00:20:02,100 one of the guys made some remark 648 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:04,566 in fun jest about me being 649 00:20:01,266 --> 00:20:06,866 Jewish. 650 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:09,233 And the man who was the public 651 00:20:04,566 --> 00:20:11,400 defender of the county, just 652 00:20:06,866 --> 00:20:13,566 looked at me with the most 653 00:20:09,233 --> 00:20:14,966 astonished face and insisted and 654 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,366 kept saying, "You're not Jewish. 655 00:20:13,566 --> 00:20:18,233 You're not Jewish." 656 00:20:14,966 --> 00:20:20,066 And the way he said that was he 657 00:20:16,366 --> 00:20:21,833 didn't want me to be Jewish. 658 00:20:18,233 --> 00:20:25,366 So even at that stage of my 659 00:20:20,066 --> 00:20:27,833 life, it was, like, there. 660 00:20:21,833 --> 00:20:29,966 And it did help me develop a 661 00:20:25,366 --> 00:20:31,700 certain resilience that I needed 662 00:20:27,833 --> 00:20:32,766 later, in terms of being an 663 00:20:29,966 --> 00:20:34,433 underdog often in the 664 00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:34,433 courtrooms. 665 00:20:32,766 --> 00:20:34,433 [ Suspenseful music plays ] 666 00:20:36,266 --> 00:20:40,200 Michael Blatt, who was a wealthy 667 00:20:38,233 --> 00:20:42,900 developer in Stockton, had been 668 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,800 accused of ordering the killing 669 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,666 of a former business associate. 670 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,433 And the theory of the case was 671 00:20:46,666 --> 00:20:51,133 that he had ordered two 672 00:20:49,433 --> 00:20:53,200 ex-football players, that he 673 00:20:51,133 --> 00:20:55,233 knew because of his association 674 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,800 with the UOP football team, to 675 00:20:55,233 --> 00:20:58,666 kill Larry Carnegie. 676 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,433 And in fact, one of them, 677 00:20:58,666 --> 00:21:02,366 James Mackey, did kill 678 00:21:00,433 --> 00:21:03,800 Larry Carnegie by firing a 679 00:21:02,366 --> 00:21:05,533 crossbow into him. 680 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,233 And the case was originally 681 00:21:05,533 --> 00:21:07,933 tried by two Alameda County 682 00:21:07,233 --> 00:21:10,400 lawyers. 683 00:21:07,933 --> 00:21:12,333 It was a death-penalty case. 684 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,133 And these lawyers had the trial 685 00:21:12,333 --> 00:21:15,633 and the case for a couple of 686 00:21:14,133 --> 00:21:17,433 years. 687 00:21:15,633 --> 00:21:18,200 Prosecutor was determined to 688 00:21:17,433 --> 00:21:19,833 retry it. 689 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,566 This case was tried by my 690 00:21:19,833 --> 00:21:22,233 partner, Cris Arguedas, and 691 00:21:21,566 --> 00:21:23,633 myself. 692 00:21:22,233 --> 00:21:23,633 >> He was a big guy. 693 00:21:23,866 --> 00:21:29,533 He had been a football player in 694 00:21:25,766 --> 00:21:30,900 college. 695 00:21:26,966 --> 00:21:32,466 He was a Fundamentalist 696 00:21:29,533 --> 00:21:34,233 Christian. 697 00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:36,233 He didn't like Penny and I. 698 00:21:32,466 --> 00:21:37,433 I'm sure he didn't like it that 699 00:21:34,233 --> 00:21:38,433 we were gay. 700 00:21:36,233 --> 00:21:40,066 He didn't like it that we were 701 00:21:37,433 --> 00:21:41,700 criminal defense lawyers. 702 00:21:38,433 --> 00:21:44,633 >> This was his life, this case, 703 00:21:40,066 --> 00:21:47,666 and his career, as it turns out. 704 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:50,966 >> Penny had read the trial 705 00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:52,433 transcript, and she saw that 706 00:21:47,666 --> 00:21:53,933 Blansett has a need to talk and 707 00:21:50,966 --> 00:21:55,333 be listened to all the time. 708 00:21:52,433 --> 00:21:57,833 Penny decides that what we're 709 00:21:53,933 --> 00:21:59,066 gonna do is we're gonna not 710 00:21:55,333 --> 00:22:01,566 speak to him -- ever, for the 711 00:21:57,833 --> 00:22:02,466 whole trial. 712 00:21:59,066 --> 00:22:04,200 And it drove him absolutely 713 00:22:01,566 --> 00:22:06,066 insane. 714 00:22:02,466 --> 00:22:07,566 >> And during one point in the 715 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,200 opening statement, Eual Blansett 716 00:22:06,066 --> 00:22:11,100 got so frustrated that he 717 00:22:07,566 --> 00:22:12,900 actually left the courtroom. 718 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:14,800 >> And went into the bathroom, 719 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:16,633 which was right next door in 720 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:18,533 this old courthouse, and would 721 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:20,800 be flushing the toilet during 722 00:22:16,633 --> 00:22:22,200 her opening statement and then 723 00:22:18,533 --> 00:22:23,666 make a big show of, you know, 724 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,166 coming through the doors like 725 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,866 this, and, you know, just to be 726 00:22:23,666 --> 00:22:28,600 a distracting, obnoxious fool. 727 00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:30,700 When he went, she stopped 728 00:22:27,866 --> 00:22:32,866 talking. 729 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:34,466 She waited for him to come back. 730 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,900 And so she made him be the fool. 731 00:22:32,866 --> 00:22:37,666 >> He objected to every single 732 00:22:34,466 --> 00:22:39,333 thing, and it was really a 733 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:41,100 battle, and when James Mackey 734 00:22:37,666 --> 00:22:43,433 went to testify, I actually 735 00:22:39,333 --> 00:22:47,166 cross-examined this gentleman 736 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:49,833 for 20 days. 737 00:22:43,433 --> 00:22:52,900 >> And the judge says to us, 738 00:22:47,166 --> 00:22:54,400 "If you -- Counsel, if you 739 00:22:49,833 --> 00:22:55,833 insult the opposing counsel one 740 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:57,966 more time, I'm gonna hold you in 741 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,333 contempt, and I'm gonna charge 742 00:22:55,833 --> 00:23:00,633 you $100 for every time I hold 743 00:22:57,966 --> 00:23:01,666 you in contempt." 744 00:22:59,333 --> 00:23:04,000 She reaches into her pocket, she 745 00:23:00,633 --> 00:23:06,033 takes out the wad, and she 746 00:23:01,666 --> 00:23:07,533 counts out 5 $100 bills, and she 747 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,533 says, "Here's for this one, and 748 00:23:06,033 --> 00:23:11,500 here's for four more!" 749 00:23:07,533 --> 00:23:14,766 >> Towards the end, Cris was in 750 00:23:09,533 --> 00:23:15,400 a hallway talking to a witness. 751 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:17,800 >> He says to me, "Move out of 752 00:23:14,766 --> 00:23:20,466 here. 753 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:22,100 I'm talking to my witness here." 754 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,033 And I say, "I'm not moving. 755 00:23:20,466 --> 00:23:26,333 I'm talking to my witness here. 756 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:28,166 It's a hallway." 757 00:23:23,033 --> 00:23:30,033 And he says, "I said move." 758 00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:32,100 And I said, "I'm not moving." 759 00:23:28,166 --> 00:23:34,233 He kind of picks me up like an 760 00:23:30,033 --> 00:23:35,633 inch off the floor and is kind 761 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,633 of walking me back like to move 762 00:23:34,233 --> 00:23:35,633 me out of the way. 763 00:23:35,866 --> 00:23:40,433 >> And Cris fell onto the floor 764 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,233 in the sight of some of the 765 00:23:40,433 --> 00:23:44,600 jurors. 766 00:23:41,233 --> 00:23:46,900 10 months later, the jury hung 767 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,766 11-1 for acquittal. 768 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:50,900 And the case was ultimately 769 00:23:48,766 --> 00:23:52,300 dismissed, and Mr. Blansett lost 770 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:52,300 his job. 771 00:23:52,533 --> 00:23:59,466 This article features the 772 00:23:54,733 --> 00:24:01,033 unbelievable battle we had, 773 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,033 entitled "Culture Clash." 774 00:23:59,466 --> 00:24:01,033 And that it was. 775 00:24:05,066 --> 00:24:13,366 [ Upbeat music plays ] 776 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:15,933 >> One of the very great moments 777 00:24:10,566 --> 00:24:17,700 in not only my legal life but my 778 00:24:13,366 --> 00:24:19,433 life itself was being able to 779 00:24:15,933 --> 00:24:21,766 argue for the defense in the 780 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:23,833 Unites States Supreme Court. 781 00:24:19,433 --> 00:24:26,100 It was a very complicated matter 782 00:24:21,766 --> 00:24:27,900 involving a probation search 783 00:24:23,833 --> 00:24:30,233 that produced a large drug lab. 784 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:31,733 The problem was that the 785 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:33,066 defendant had never consented to 786 00:24:30,233 --> 00:24:34,900 being on probation. 787 00:24:31,733 --> 00:24:36,466 Court crier comes out. 788 00:24:33,066 --> 00:24:38,100 Then the court members come out. 789 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:40,900 They sit, and the solicitor 790 00:24:36,466 --> 00:24:42,833 general gets up to begin his 791 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:44,733 argument, and I am terrified. 792 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:46,400 The Honorable Thurgood Marshall 793 00:24:42,833 --> 00:24:48,233 bellows into the microphone at 794 00:24:44,733 --> 00:24:49,866 my opponent, "When did the 795 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,700 respondent here first know of 796 00:24:48,233 --> 00:24:53,233 this probation business?" 797 00:24:49,866 --> 00:24:55,800 The answer -- "He was told at 798 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:57,933 the door." 799 00:24:53,233 --> 00:24:59,766 The justice -- "That don't give 800 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:03,166 you any problems, do it?" 801 00:24:57,933 --> 00:25:04,966 The man's answer here -- "No." 802 00:24:59,766 --> 00:25:06,466 The justice -- "Oh, so he lost 803 00:25:03,166 --> 00:25:07,766 all his rights without even 804 00:25:04,966 --> 00:25:09,800 knowing he lost them?" 805 00:25:06,466 --> 00:25:11,666 [ Laughter ] 806 00:25:07,766 --> 00:25:13,200 And then the justice groaned 807 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,200 uncontrollably, and I was 808 00:25:11,666 --> 00:25:13,200 feeling quite calm. 809 00:25:13,433 --> 00:25:17,033 It's not just the drama of going 810 00:25:15,366 --> 00:25:18,266 to court and objecting and 811 00:25:17,033 --> 00:25:20,200 winning or losing. 812 00:25:18,266 --> 00:25:21,833 It's really managing people's 813 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,366 lives when they get into 814 00:25:21,833 --> 00:25:25,033 difficulty or trouble. 815 00:25:23,366 --> 00:25:26,733 A lot of people are critical at 816 00:25:25,033 --> 00:25:28,200 what you do until they need you. 817 00:25:26,733 --> 00:25:29,533 And when they need you, their 818 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,100 whole attitude about it is 819 00:25:29,533 --> 00:25:32,766 totally different. 820 00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:33,166 People don't get guilty people 821 00:25:32,766 --> 00:25:35,333 off. 822 00:25:33,166 --> 00:25:37,533 What you do is ease a situation 823 00:25:35,333 --> 00:25:39,633 and try to reach compromises in 824 00:25:37,533 --> 00:25:42,666 most cases that are meaningful 825 00:25:39,633 --> 00:25:44,000 for both sides. 826 00:25:42,666 --> 00:25:45,633 I've received hundreds of 827 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,133 letters from jail from desperate 828 00:25:45,633 --> 00:25:47,500 people. 829 00:25:46,133 --> 00:25:48,966 I read them all, I usually 830 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:50,133 respond, and occasionally, I 831 00:25:48,966 --> 00:25:51,400 take the case. 832 00:25:50,133 --> 00:25:52,866 My favorite letter of all, 833 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,166 written many, many years ago by 834 00:25:52,866 --> 00:25:55,500 a prisoner -- At end of his 835 00:25:54,166 --> 00:25:56,900 letter, he's saying, "Before 836 00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:58,166 closing, I'd like to tell you 837 00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,900 something about yourself." 838 00:25:58,166 --> 00:26:01,466 [ Laughter ] 839 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,900 "If there is such a thing here 840 00:26:01,466 --> 00:26:04,166 in our society, prison, your 841 00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,666 name is a household word. 842 00:26:04,166 --> 00:26:07,166 Everyone from the Bay Area has 843 00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:08,166 been represented by you at one 844 00:26:07,166 --> 00:26:10,033 time in the past." 845 00:26:08,166 --> 00:26:11,200 [ Laughter ] 846 00:26:10,033 --> 00:26:12,766 "You have many faces. 847 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,333 Sometimes you are described as 848 00:26:12,766 --> 00:26:14,833 being about 50 and walk with a 849 00:26:14,333 --> 00:26:15,966 cane." 850 00:26:14,833 --> 00:26:17,000 I was about 25 then. 851 00:26:15,966 --> 00:26:18,533 [ Laughter ] 852 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,233 "And at other times, you wear 853 00:26:18,533 --> 00:26:21,700 large hats and colorful clothes. 854 00:26:20,233 --> 00:26:23,100 You drive everything from a 855 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,733 Henry J to a Rolls-Royce. 856 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,233 Seemingly, the 'in thing' is to 857 00:26:24,733 --> 00:26:27,500 have known you through your 858 00:26:26,233 --> 00:26:29,066 profession at one time. 859 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:30,600 After all, without dreams and 860 00:26:29,066 --> 00:26:31,633 fantasies, what else have we 861 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:31,633 here?"