WEBVTT

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[ Upbeat music plays ]

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>> The only time I ever played

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golf before I retired was in

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1972, and I got a telephone call

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from my friend the lawyer,

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Sarita Waite.

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The Alameda County Clerk's golf

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tournament was coming up, and

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she really wanted to play in it.

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And she'd gone down to the

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clerk's office to register for

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it, and they refused her

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registration 'cause she was a

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woman.

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She had decided she was gonna

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file a lawsuit and asked me if I

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would attach my name, and I

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said, "Of course I will."

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But of course that meant I had

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to play golf.

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So, I went out, and I took one

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lesson.

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Well, the newspapers reported

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that Penny Cooper had shot the

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highest score ever on the golf

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course, with the headline,

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"Women Teed Off So Are the

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Men."

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[ Chuckles ]

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You judge a society by how it

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treats its worst, and

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constitutional rights are

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meaningless unless they apply to

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the worst in society.

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I really wanted to be a trial

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lawyer, and I wanted to fight

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for the people, and I wanted to

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fight for their -- the causes.

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I have to say, from the first

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day that I walked into the

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Public Defender's Office as an

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employee, I really thought I'd

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died and gone to heaven.

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Everybody was just fabulous.

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I loved the excitement of

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figuring out people's problems,

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going to court.

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>> She was really feisty, and

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the clients loved her.

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At that time, there were 12

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lawyers in the

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Public Defender's Office in

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Alameda County -- covered the

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whole county.

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So we learned how to try cases.

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[ Psychedelic rock music plays ]

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>> One of the most memorable

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cases I had was sort of a tale

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of the times.

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There was a man in Berkeley who

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was charged with possessing LSD,

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and he announced to the whole

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community that he was going to

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be, on a certain day and a

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certain time and place, carrying

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LSD in his cross on his neck.

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And of course he did that, and

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he was promptly arrested.

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And I was assigned his case.

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During the trial, the prosecutor

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asked why he was carrying this

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LSD in his cross, and

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"Charlie Brown" Ortman said,

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"Well, I heard voices."

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And Stacey Walthall said to him,

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"You hear voices?

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Are you hearing voices now?"

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And I yelled out, "Objection!

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Hearsay!"

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And that was just a huge hoot,

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you know, made the papers,

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softened the judge, and he just

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got a tongue-lashing.

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[ Soft music plays ]

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I grew up in Denver, Colorado,

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and I became very much aware of

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the fact that I was Jewish

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because I was singled out for

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it.

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Myself and the only other Jewish

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kid in the class, we were sort

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of segregated.

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All the other kids sat

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alphabetically but myself and

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my friend.

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We sat at the back.

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I did go to religious school,

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which required me to get from

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school onto a yellow school bus

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with Hebrew letters on the side

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every Wednesday afternoon.

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And everybody would see us on

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this weird bus that had these

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Hebrew letters.

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My father was born in Poland and

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came over to the United States

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when he was about six, with his

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family.

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They were extremely poor.

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His father basically sold rags

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from a horse cart.

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My mother's father was a tailor,

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and he had a tailor shop in

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Downtown Denver.

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My dad did not have a

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high-school education, and

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neither of my parents had a

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college education.

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They were of the era that

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believed that everything they

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did should be for their

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children.

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My dad decided, when he was in

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his mid 30s, to enlist in

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World War II.

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And the reason he did that, even

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though he had two children at

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the time, was he felt like the

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Jews weren't doing enough for

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the World War II effort.

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And he lost his leg.

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The amputees were awarded the

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first Hydra-Matic Oldsmobile car

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so they could drive a car

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without having to shift gears

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and use the clutch.

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And that was a big highlight in

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our neighborhood, our little

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blue Hydra-Matic Oldsmobile.

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I got a scholarship to the

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University of Colorado because

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my parents really couldn't

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afford an out-of-state college.

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And I had always loved

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San Francisco and the Bay Area

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because my aunt and uncle lived

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here and this is where we would

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go on vacations.

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It was always that bright spot

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at the end of the road, and I

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just thought this was the

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greatest place in the world.

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Following graduation, I came out

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to Berkeley to go to law school.

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I was at Boalt from '61 to '64.

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The school was headed by

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Dean William Prosser, who had

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written the key textbook on

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torts, and he was nationally

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famous.

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And he didn't believe that women

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should be in a law school at

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all.

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He would just make fun of women

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in the class.

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So he announced very early on

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that he was going to treat the

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men and women equally, and in my

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section, there were like 85 men

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and 3 women, and he said, "I'm

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just gonna call on you, 'man,

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woman, man, woman,'" and that's

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how he did it.

05:27.133 --> 05:32.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
And then he would say, "Stand up

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like a man and answer the

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question."

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It's hard to be a

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criminal-defense lawyer.

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Really, everybody's against you.

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And you have to have a certain

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resilience and, I believe, a

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certain sense of humor in order

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to be successful.

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I was in court, and the opposing

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district attorney was somebody

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who had been in my law-school

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class.

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And while I was arguing a point

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in front of the judge, he yelled

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out to the judge, "Don't mind

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her, Judge.

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She's on the rag."

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And I just was really...floored

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and said, "First of all,

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Judge, it's not true.

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And secondly, he should be held

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in contempt for this."

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And the judge just brushed it

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off.

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>> [ Chanting ] Hell no!

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We won't go!

06:17.266 --> 06:20.966 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
>> The anti-war movement was

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rampant all around the Bay Area,

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everywhere else, too.

06:22.233 --> 06:28.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
And about seven or eight of us,

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at least, decided to march in an

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anti-war parade in

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San Francisco.

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John Nunes, who was the public

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defender, called the group of us

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into the office.

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I remember his quote.

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>> "I'll take steps," meaning he

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was gonna try to fire us.

06:41.800 --> 06:46.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> For exercising our civil

06:43.366 --> 06:48.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
rights, which is what we were in

06:45.200 --> 06:51.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
business for!

06:46.066 --> 06:52.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> And from that point on, the

06:48.600 --> 06:54.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
jobs that I was given were less

06:51.200 --> 06:57.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:37.5%
than desirable.

06:52.633 --> 06:58.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
I had been dating Jim Newhouse.

06:54.900 --> 06:59.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
We were very close, and we were

06:57.133 --> 07:00.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
both very much aligned on this

06:58.766 --> 07:02.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:15%
issue.

06:59.300 --> 07:04.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
And we had sort of made

07:00.733 --> 07:07.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
tentative plans that we would go

07:02.466 --> 07:09.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
out on our own eventually.

07:04.866 --> 07:11.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
We opened our private practice

07:07.033 --> 07:11.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:42.5%
in March of 1969.

07:09.800 --> 07:13.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
Two weeks later, "People's Park"

07:11.266 --> 07:14.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:10%
hit.

07:11.800 --> 07:17.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
[ Sirens wailing, indistinct

07:13.833 --> 07:19.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
shouting ]

07:14.733 --> 07:20.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
So Jim and I went to this church

07:17.466 --> 07:21.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
where all of the "People's Park"

07:19.000 --> 07:23.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
defendants had gathered.

07:20.233 --> 07:25.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And we basically told these

07:21.566 --> 07:26.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
people that, if they wanted to

07:23.300 --> 07:28.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
hire us, we would do their cases

07:25.166 --> 07:30.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:22.5%
for $100.

07:26.366 --> 07:31.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
And the firms in San Francisco

07:28.600 --> 07:33.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:52.5%
were charging $1,500.

07:30.266 --> 07:34.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
So we got about a hundred

07:31.833 --> 07:36.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
clients our first month.

07:33.333 --> 07:37.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
We were always able to get the

07:34.833 --> 07:39.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
charges down to something

07:36.100 --> 07:41.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
reasonable so that their futures

07:37.700 --> 07:42.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:42.5%
weren't affected.

07:39.433 --> 07:44.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
We would come to court on Monday

07:41.166 --> 07:46.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
mornings to discuss cases, and

07:42.800 --> 07:47.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
we would go into chambers, and

07:44.433 --> 07:48.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
everybody would be talking about

07:46.166 --> 07:49.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
the football games -- every

07:47.700 --> 07:51.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:27.5%
single guy.

07:48.433 --> 07:53.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
And I felt I was really at a

07:49.933 --> 07:54.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
disadvantage not knowing about

07:51.533 --> 07:56.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
football, so I talked to Jim

07:53.033 --> 07:58.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
about it, and we got season

07:54.500 --> 08:00.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
tickets to the Oakland Raiders

07:56.100 --> 08:01.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
so that I could talk football.

07:58.633 --> 08:03.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And then I learned baseball and

08:00.366 --> 08:05.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
all of it, and now I actually

08:01.900 --> 08:06.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
enjoy watching it all the time,

08:03.566 --> 08:08.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
and I talk baseball, football,

08:05.166 --> 08:09.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
basketball with all the guys.

08:06.733 --> 08:11.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:52.5%
Eventually, Jim got a

08:08.233 --> 08:13.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
girlfriend, and I got a

08:09.866 --> 08:15.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:40%
girlfriend, too.

08:11.066 --> 08:17.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And I had finally come out.

08:13.033 --> 08:20.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
And we continued to practice

08:15.100 --> 08:22.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
together, but eventually, his

08:17.233 --> 08:23.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
interest was more where his

08:20.400 --> 08:25.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
girlfriend was, which was in the

08:22.133 --> 08:28.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
southern part of the county and

08:23.833 --> 08:31.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
in Carmel.

08:25.433 --> 08:31.066 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
And my interest was in making a

08:28.366 --> 08:31.066 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:80%
big career here in the East Bay.

08:31.300 --> 08:35.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
>> Her mother adored her, and I

08:33.533 --> 08:37.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
think she probably had a very

08:35.700 --> 08:41.266 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
strong foundation, and she

08:37.700 --> 08:42.666 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
became a very confident person

08:41.266 --> 08:42.666 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:22.5%
early on.

08:42.900 --> 08:48.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
>> Never bothered her a whit to

08:44.700 --> 08:50.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
go wherever you had to go, and

08:46.500 --> 08:51.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:40%
she'd just...go.

08:48.733 --> 08:52.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
She goes to Puerto Rico, goes

08:50.166 --> 08:53.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
into court, and everybody's

08:51.500 --> 08:54.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:40%
talking Spanish.

08:52.400 --> 08:56.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
And she -- "Wait a second.

08:53.700 --> 08:57.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
I thought this was a U.S.

08:54.933 --> 08:59.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
Federal District Court?"

08:56.166 --> 09:00.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
So she calls the associate

08:57.700 --> 09:02.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
counselor and says, "You better

08:59.466 --> 09:03.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
get your ass into chambers here

09:00.833 --> 09:04.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
'cause these people are talking

09:02.100 --> 09:06.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
Spanish and I don't know what

09:03.333 --> 09:07.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
they're talking about."

09:04.333 --> 09:09.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> The judge said to me, "And,

09:06.066 --> 09:11.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
Ms. Cooper, the next time you

09:07.766 --> 09:12.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
return to my courtroom, you will

09:09.600 --> 09:14.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:35%
wear a dress."

09:11.333 --> 09:15.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
And so I did.

09:12.300 --> 09:17.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And I stood in front of the

09:14.000 --> 09:18.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
judge who pronounced the

09:15.566 --> 09:20.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
judgment upon my client of a

09:17.333 --> 09:21.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
year in jail.

09:18.633 --> 09:23.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
I said, "But, Judge, I wore a

09:20.700 --> 09:24.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:37.5%
dress for you."

09:21.633 --> 09:26.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
And he looked down, and he saw

09:23.300 --> 09:28.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
the dress, and he said, "That's

09:24.866 --> 09:29.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
right, Ms. Cooper," banged his

09:26.400 --> 09:31.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
hand down, and said, "That'll be

09:28.033 --> 09:32.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
six months."

09:29.066 --> 09:32.700 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
The last time I wore a dress in

09:31.266 --> 09:32.700 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:35%
the courtroom.

09:34.766 --> 09:36.133 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:50%
[ Soft music plays ]

09:47.266 --> 09:54.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
It just was a natural sort of

09:49.133 --> 09:56.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
evolution for me, realizing that

09:51.266 --> 09:57.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
I was really more attracted and

09:54.766 --> 09:59.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
much more companionable with a

09:56.366 --> 10:01.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:15%
woman.

09:57.433 --> 10:03.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
Coming out to my close friends

09:59.466 --> 10:05.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
was difficult, and one of the

10:01.466 --> 10:06.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
women who was a part of this

10:03.366 --> 10:07.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
group was just absolutely

10:05.133 --> 10:09.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
horrified.

10:06.000 --> 10:10.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And she just said, "Oh, my God.

10:07.866 --> 10:11.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
I just feel so sorry for you,

10:09.600 --> 10:13.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:15%
Penny.

10:10.166 --> 10:15.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
I feel so sorry for you.

10:11.800 --> 10:17.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
I think your problem is you just

10:13.866 --> 10:19.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
haven't met the right guy yet."

10:15.866 --> 10:21.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
And I really enjoy this story

10:17.633 --> 10:23.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
because right now she's on her

10:19.466 --> 10:23.300 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:80%
fifth husband, so apparently<i> she</i>

10:21.400 --> 10:23.300 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:80%
hasn't met the right guy either.

10:23.533 --> 10:27.000 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
>> I met Penny because we had

10:25.200 --> 10:28.866 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
this mutual friend who thought

10:27.000 --> 10:30.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
we would like each other 'cause

10:28.866 --> 10:32.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
we were the only two people she

10:30.700 --> 10:34.400 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
knew that were both interested

10:32.500 --> 10:34.400 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:77.5%
in contemporary Italian design.

10:34.633 --> 10:38.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> And we realized that our

10:35.900 --> 10:39.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
common interest in contemporary

10:37.366 --> 10:42.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
art was one of the ties that

10:38.733 --> 10:44.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:22.5%
bound us.

10:39.800 --> 10:45.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And we were becoming really

10:42.766 --> 10:47.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
consumed by it, so we would read

10:44.533 --> 10:48.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
magazines, we would go to

10:45.933 --> 10:49.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
museums, and we would go to

10:47.466 --> 10:51.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:22.5%
exhibits.

10:48.133 --> 10:52.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And we decided that it would be

10:49.833 --> 10:52.266 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:65%
important to support women

10:51.300 --> 10:52.266 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:20%
artists.

10:55.600 --> 11:00.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
We've been together 36 years.

10:57.233 --> 11:02.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
We chose to get married the

10:58.833 --> 11:03.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
first day that it was officially

11:00.733 --> 11:03.433 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:52.5%
legal in the state of

11:02.033 --> 11:03.433 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:27.5%
California.

11:18.733 --> 11:24.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
Our collection is a mix of what

11:20.733 --> 11:26.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
you would call emerging artists,

11:22.833 --> 11:29.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
mid-career artists, and many

11:24.700 --> 11:30.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
artists who've reached heights

11:26.700 --> 11:32.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
of any artist's career.

11:29.366 --> 11:34.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
Our collecting would be

11:30.700 --> 11:35.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
circumscribed by how well I had

11:32.433 --> 11:37.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
done that year 'cause often I

11:34.033 --> 11:39.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
waited till the end of the year

11:35.766 --> 11:41.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
to see if we had any money that

11:37.466 --> 11:41.566 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
we could spare, and whatever we

11:39.200 --> 11:41.566 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:72.5%
had, we used to buy art with.

11:46.666 --> 11:51.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> My role with Penny has really

11:48.000 --> 11:53.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
shifted a lot over the years.

11:49.266 --> 11:55.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
When she was working, you know,

11:51.200 --> 11:56.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
a million hours a week, I would

11:53.066 --> 11:57.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
take care of a lot of the things

11:55.000 --> 11:58.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:42.5%
around the house.

11:56.133 --> 12:00.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> I would usually go to court

11:57.766 --> 12:01.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:37.5%
in the morning.

11:58.700 --> 12:03.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And then, at noon, I would show

12:00.433 --> 12:05.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
up in the office, wait for

12:01.866 --> 12:06.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
clients, and handle all those

12:03.466 --> 12:08.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
matters, and then back in the

12:05.133 --> 12:09.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
office after afternoon court and

12:06.966 --> 12:10.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
normally in the office till 7:00

12:08.800 --> 12:13.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:20%
or 8:00.

12:09.433 --> 12:15.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
I worked most weekends.

12:10.833 --> 12:17.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
I worked lots of nights all the

12:13.033 --> 12:19.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
time because I had a lot of work

12:15.266 --> 12:21.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
and I was really interested in

12:17.400 --> 12:22.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:50%
being over-prepared.

12:19.366 --> 12:24.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
>> I'd really never been with

12:21.100 --> 12:27.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
anybody that had worked such

12:22.800 --> 12:27.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
long hours, and it gave me a lot

12:24.700 --> 12:29.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
of time to be by myself, which I

12:27.233 --> 12:31.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:12.5%
love.

12:27.900 --> 12:32.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> Rena is a published poet, and

12:29.633 --> 12:34.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
there was never enough time for

12:31.300 --> 12:35.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
Rena to be able to write.

12:32.700 --> 12:37.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
>> No matter how hard or long

12:34.233 --> 12:38.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
Penny worked, she loved to sit

12:35.833 --> 12:40.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
down and have a really nice

12:37.266 --> 12:42.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
dinner, and we'd talk about the

12:38.900 --> 12:44.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:10%
day.

12:40.100 --> 12:46.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
And I loved her energy.

12:42.966 --> 12:48.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> I had been asked to represent

12:44.933 --> 12:49.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
the great ceramic artist

12:46.466 --> 12:51.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
Peter Voulkos, who had some

12:48.166 --> 12:52.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:45%
issues with drugs.

12:49.400 --> 12:54.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
In lieu of paying a fee, I asked

12:51.200 --> 12:56.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
him to give me a piece of his

12:52.833 --> 12:57.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
work which I thought was really

12:54.566 --> 12:59.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
beautiful, called a "stack."

12:56.166 --> 13:01.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
It was a huge ceramic piece.

12:57.733 --> 13:02.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
After I had the piece for a few

12:59.433 --> 13:04.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
years, I decided that it didn't

13:01.200 --> 13:06.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
fit in our collection because

13:02.833 --> 13:06.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
it wasn't a piece by a woman,

13:04.433 --> 13:08.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
and I also became aware of the

13:06.100 --> 13:11.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
fact that the

13:06.966 --> 13:12.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
Berkeley Art Museum did not own

13:08.666 --> 13:14.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
a piece of this incredible

13:11.300 --> 13:15.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:35%
artist's work.

13:12.900 --> 13:16.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
So I donated the piece to the

13:14.133 --> 13:18.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
Berkeley Art Museum, and soon

13:15.400 --> 13:18.100 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
after that, I was invited to be

13:16.700 --> 13:18.100 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:32.5%
on the board.

13:18.333 --> 13:22.466 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
>> Back in 1994, I wanted to do

13:21.166 --> 13:24.266 align:start position:10% line:10% size:55%
an exhibition that was

13:22.466 --> 13:25.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
potentially controversial on the

13:24.266 --> 13:27.366 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
theme of the resonance of gay

13:25.900 --> 13:29.266 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
and lesbian experience in

13:27.366 --> 13:29.266 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:75%
20th-century American culture.

13:29.500 --> 13:33.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
There had been very little

13:30.666 --> 13:33.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
occasion for museums in America

13:32.100 --> 13:35.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
to look at this particular

13:33.300 --> 13:36.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:15%
theme.

13:33.733 --> 13:37.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
You know, who's gonna put their

13:35.166 --> 13:39.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
money behind an exhibition like

13:36.600 --> 13:41.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:12.5%
this?

13:37.533 --> 13:43.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And spontaneously, Penny Cooper

13:39.400 --> 13:44.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
said, "If you can't raise the

13:41.133 --> 13:47.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
money from other sources, I will

13:43.033 --> 13:49.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
underwrite this exhibition."

13:44.300 --> 13:51.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
And I just remember feeling so

13:47.166 --> 13:53.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
relieved and so grateful and

13:49.300 --> 13:55.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
thinking, "This is precisely how

13:51.700 --> 13:57.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
trustees should behave."

13:53.166 --> 13:58.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
You always want to be with Penny

13:55.433 --> 14:00.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
because she's just gonna help

13:57.500 --> 14:00.233 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:40%
you get through.

13:58.766 --> 14:00.233 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:50%
[ Folk music plays ]

14:02.033 --> 14:07.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> There's nothing I like better

14:04.066 --> 14:08.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
than seeing art with Penny.

14:05.900 --> 14:09.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> I've always really loved

14:07.333 --> 14:11.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:42.5%
contemporary art.

14:08.333 --> 14:14.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
I love contemporary artists.

14:09.800 --> 14:15.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
I love their thoughts.

14:11.800 --> 14:17.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
I love the way they approach

14:14.200 --> 14:18.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:17.5%
issues.

14:15.100 --> 14:20.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
I love the way they translate

14:17.000 --> 14:22.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
what they think onto whatever

14:18.933 --> 14:23.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
their surface might be.

14:20.500 --> 14:25.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
Artist's way of thinking is

14:22.166 --> 14:26.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
really almost completely

14:23.666 --> 14:28.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
opposite from the way that I

14:25.400 --> 14:28.066 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:42.5%
learned to think.

14:26.533 --> 14:28.066 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:67.5%
[ Up-tempo symphony plays ]

14:35.733 --> 14:37.833 align:start position:10% line:10% size:50%
>> I had been at the

14:36.466 --> 14:39.100 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
Federal Public Defender's Office

14:37.833 --> 14:40.966 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
for two years, and I was gonna

14:39.100 --> 14:42.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
go out somewhere, and I thought

14:40.966 --> 14:44.366 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
I was gonna go with this very

14:42.700 --> 14:45.400 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
well-respected criminal-law

14:44.366 --> 14:46.766 align:start position:10% line:10% size:12.5%
firm.

14:45.400 --> 14:48.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
She said, "Come on over to my

14:46.766 --> 14:49.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
house for dinner," and we did a

14:48.200 --> 14:51.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
lot of talking and laughing and

14:49.633 --> 14:51.033 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:30%
hanging out.

14:51.266 --> 14:53.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And at the end of it, she said,

14:52.300 --> 14:55.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
"You shouldn't go with those

14:53.333 --> 14:56.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:12.5%
guys.

14:53.633 --> 14:58.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
You should come with me.

14:55.266 --> 14:59.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
Come with my firm, and in a

14:56.666 --> 15:01.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
year, I'll make you a partner."

14:58.233 --> 15:03.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
>> There is a 15-year age

14:59.833 --> 15:06.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
difference, and that made it

15:01.700 --> 15:08.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
really good for me also because

15:03.633 --> 15:10.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
I really had an intense desire

15:06.900 --> 15:11.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
to pass on what I knew could

15:08.766 --> 15:12.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
happen in the courtroom.

15:10.433 --> 15:13.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
>> So, I didn't do any cases or

15:11.733 --> 15:15.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:35%
anything else.

15:12.433 --> 15:16.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
I just went where Penny went for

15:13.766 --> 15:18.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:20%
a month.

15:15.033 --> 15:18.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
Wherever we went, everybody

15:16.633 --> 15:20.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
would brighten up because Penny

15:18.433 --> 15:22.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:12.5%
came.

15:18.933 --> 15:24.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
Because she'd be talking about

15:20.666 --> 15:26.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
sports or telling a story about

15:22.900 --> 15:28.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
a client or remembering

15:24.666 --> 15:30.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
something funny that happened,

15:26.833 --> 15:33.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
and in the meantime, she was

15:28.900 --> 15:34.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
getting what she wanted.

15:30.700 --> 15:36.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
And she could, in an instant,

15:33.100 --> 15:38.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
get tough.

15:34.233 --> 15:40.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> She would often say, you

15:36.633 --> 15:41.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
know, "The prosecutor, I mean,

15:38.366 --> 15:43.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
he's lying through his teeth.

15:40.033 --> 15:45.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
I mean, it's unbelievable what

15:41.766 --> 15:46.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
they're getting away with."

15:43.366 --> 15:48.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
You know, so by the time I go to

15:45.233 --> 15:50.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
court with her, I've just got

15:46.933 --> 15:52.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
steam blowing out my ears.

15:48.500 --> 15:53.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
And we march into court, and the

15:50.366 --> 15:54.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
next thing, I look around, and

15:52.100 --> 15:56.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
she's got her arm around the

15:53.766 --> 15:58.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:27.5%
prosecutor.

15:54.600 --> 15:59.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
You know, everybody else's blood

15:56.566 --> 16:01.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
pressure is up to 200.

15:58.000 --> 16:01.400 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:65%
[ Up-tempo drums beating ]

15:59.766 --> 16:01.400 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:60%
[ Ethereal music plays ]

16:09.200 --> 16:16.600 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
>> I think of Penny as like a

16:12.500 --> 16:19.600 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
very friendly older sister to me

16:16.600 --> 16:21.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
or like an aunt that was very

16:19.600 --> 16:23.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:32.5%
doting on me.

16:21.900 --> 16:25.300 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
And yet, at the same time, I

16:23.533 --> 16:27.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
could never really turn my back

16:25.300 --> 16:30.000 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
to her, because she would slit

16:27.033 --> 16:32.066 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
my throat in a nanosecond if I

16:30.000 --> 16:32.966 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
didn't give her everything that

16:32.066 --> 16:34.300 align:start position:10% line:10% size:27.5%
she wanted.

16:32.966 --> 16:36.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:30%
The case was

16:34.300 --> 16:40.333 align:start position:10% line:10% size:55%
<i> People v. Dan Mackay.</i>

16:36.433 --> 16:41.933 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
Dan Mackay was a nice guy,

16:40.333 --> 16:43.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
Mormon guy, who beat his wife to

16:41.933 --> 16:46.100 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
death with a baseball bat.

16:43.500 --> 16:47.866 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
>> She was a very heavyset

16:46.100 --> 16:47.866 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:15%
woman.

16:48.100 --> 16:52.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
He loved her.

16:48.966 --> 16:54.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
He loved her anyway she looked.

16:50.866 --> 16:55.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
But she decided at one point in

16:52.733 --> 16:57.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
her life, in her early 40s, that

16:54.666 --> 16:59.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:40%
she was too fat.

16:55.766 --> 17:01.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
And she took these drugs, and

16:57.566 --> 17:02.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
according to her, it made her

16:59.366 --> 17:03.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
really want to have sex with

17:01.200 --> 17:05.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
young men.

17:02.000 --> 17:06.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
They were just totally steeped

17:03.566 --> 17:08.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
in the Mormon religion, and this

17:05.200 --> 17:10.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
really began to drive him crazy.

17:06.866 --> 17:11.300 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
She announced to my client that

17:08.500 --> 17:11.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
she was gonna take the kids.

17:10.000 --> 17:13.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
They were in an upstairs

17:11.300 --> 17:14.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:22.5%
bathroom.

17:11.933 --> 17:14.966 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
The kids were all off at church

17:13.566 --> 17:14.966 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:37.5%
in the morning.

17:15.200 --> 17:20.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
And he found himself in a wild

17:18.466 --> 17:22.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
rage, looked in the closet.

17:20.433 --> 17:24.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
He saw a bat, took a bat, and

17:22.533 --> 17:25.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
beat the hell out of her.

17:24.033 --> 17:27.466 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
And then he took her body --

17:25.700 --> 17:28.866 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
dead body -- and he wrapped it

17:27.466 --> 17:31.000 align:start position:10% line:10% size:45%
in a sleeping bag.

17:28.866 --> 17:32.733 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
And he drops the body off, and

17:31.000 --> 17:34.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
then he pulls off to the side of

17:32.733 --> 17:36.100 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
the road, whereupon he's seen by

17:34.500 --> 17:37.800 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
a Highway Patrol officer, who

17:36.100 --> 17:39.266 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
sees blood coming down the rear

17:37.800 --> 17:39.266 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:45%
bumper of the car.

17:39.500 --> 17:42.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
So it was really irrational what

17:40.933 --> 17:44.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
he did, and it was really

17:42.166 --> 17:45.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:22.5%
terrible.

17:42.733 --> 17:47.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> She just says, "Look, this is

17:44.533 --> 17:49.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:45%
what I'm gonna do.

17:45.666 --> 17:51.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
This is how I'm gonna drive a

17:47.333 --> 17:51.900 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:62.5%
truck through your case."

17:49.800 --> 17:51.900 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:70%
And she proceeds to do that.

17:54.066 --> 18:00.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
>> And he confesses in a

17:56.100 --> 18:02.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
statement that's about two or

17:58.566 --> 18:03.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
three hours long, that would

18:00.366 --> 18:06.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
make anybody start sobbing.

18:02.066 --> 18:07.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
>> My last name is Pinney --

18:03.766 --> 18:08.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
P-I-N-N-E-Y.

18:06.333 --> 18:09.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
So it's like Penny Cooper and

18:07.533 --> 18:09.766 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:80%
Paul Pinney -- There's all these

18:08.866 --> 18:09.766 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:10%
P's.

18:10.000 --> 18:13.833 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
And we had all these lengthy,

18:12.033 --> 18:15.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:57.5%
lengthy interviews with

18:13.833 --> 18:17.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
Dan Mackay that went on for

18:15.900 --> 18:18.933 align:start position:10% line:10% size:40%
literally hours.

18:17.233 --> 18:20.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
And so I would excise portions

18:18.933 --> 18:21.133 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
of those and play those to the

18:20.633 --> 18:22.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:12.5%
jury.

18:21.133 --> 18:23.766 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
So in her closing argument, she

18:22.900 --> 18:25.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:32.5%
would call me

18:23.766 --> 18:26.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
"Pick-and-Choose Pinney."

18:25.233 --> 18:27.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:37.5%
She said, "He's

18:26.200 --> 18:27.700 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:62.5%
'Pick-and-Choose Pinney.'

18:27.933 --> 18:31.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
He doesn't show you the whole

18:29.366 --> 18:33.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:17.5%
thing."

18:29.900 --> 18:35.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And I argued forcefully for

18:31.333 --> 18:37.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:50%
first-degree murder.

18:33.500 --> 18:38.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
As it was, the jury came back

18:35.433 --> 18:40.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
with a voluntary manslaughter.

18:37.433 --> 18:40.233 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:55%
She has good powers of

18:38.966 --> 18:40.233 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:27.5%
persuasion.

18:41.400 --> 18:45.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
[ Mid-tempo rock music plays ]

18:42.433 --> 18:47.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> We had a lot of clients who

18:44.000 --> 18:49.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
would be impressed if you looked

18:45.633 --> 18:49.100 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:80%
good, if you had a nice new suit

18:47.266 --> 18:49.100 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:80%
on, or if you drove a fancy car.

18:49.333 --> 18:52.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
>> I remember being really,

18:50.600 --> 18:53.600 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
really super young, and I wasn't

18:52.166 --> 18:54.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
quite sure what she did for a

18:53.600 --> 18:54.700 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:17.5%
living.

18:54.933 --> 19:00.133 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
We got off the freeway to get

18:56.533 --> 19:01.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
gas in the middle of nowhere on

18:58.266 --> 19:02.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
our way up to the Oregon border,

19:00.133 --> 19:04.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
and there were probably 500

19:01.700 --> 19:05.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:35%
motorcyclists.

19:02.633 --> 19:07.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
Turns out they were a bunch of

19:04.533 --> 19:08.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:32.5%
Hells Angels.

19:05.500 --> 19:10.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
They looked kind of mean, and I

19:07.700 --> 19:12.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:35%
was terrified.

19:08.866 --> 19:14.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
In typical Penny fashion, she

19:10.933 --> 19:16.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
gets out of her bright red

19:12.633 --> 19:17.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
Mercedes, looks over at about 20

19:14.666 --> 19:19.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
of them, and says, "Hi, boys.

19:16.533 --> 19:21.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:47.5%
Thanks for my car."

19:17.833 --> 19:22.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
Later she tells me that was the

19:19.500 --> 19:24.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
beginning of her great career,

19:21.100 --> 19:26.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
representing the Hells Angels,

19:22.733 --> 19:28.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
and they paid for her car.

19:24.800 --> 19:30.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> It was a huge trial, and

19:26.566 --> 19:31.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
there was lots of publicity, and

19:28.566 --> 19:33.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
it kind of launched me into

19:30.333 --> 19:33.500 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:35%
another space.

19:31.933 --> 19:33.500 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:60%
[ Rock music continues ]

19:43.733 --> 19:50.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
I had a name, Cooper, which

19:45.900 --> 19:52.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
didn't strike people at first as

19:48.466 --> 19:53.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
being necessarily Jewish.

19:50.533 --> 19:55.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
And I can remember one time at a

19:52.200 --> 19:56.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
celebratory party after somebody

19:53.866 --> 19:59.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:50%
had a victory in the

19:55.000 --> 20:01.266 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
Public Defender's Office, and

19:56.533 --> 20:02.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
one of the guys made some remark

19:59.100 --> 20:04.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
in fun jest about me being

20:01.266 --> 20:06.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:17.5%
Jewish.

20:02.100 --> 20:09.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
And the man who was the public

20:04.566 --> 20:11.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
defender of the county, just

20:06.866 --> 20:13.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
looked at me with the most

20:09.233 --> 20:14.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
astonished face and insisted and

20:11.400 --> 20:16.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
kept saying, "You're not Jewish.

20:13.566 --> 20:18.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:47.5%
You're not Jewish."

20:14.966 --> 20:20.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
And the way he said that was he

20:16.366 --> 20:21.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
didn't<i> want</i> me to be Jewish.

20:18.233 --> 20:25.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
So even at that stage of my

20:20.066 --> 20:27.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
life, it was, like, there.

20:21.833 --> 20:29.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
And it did help me develop a

20:25.366 --> 20:31.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
certain resilience that I needed

20:27.833 --> 20:32.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
later, in terms of being an

20:29.966 --> 20:34.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:52.5%
underdog often in the

20:31.700 --> 20:34.433 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:27.5%
courtrooms.

20:32.766 --> 20:34.433 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:67.5%
[ Suspenseful music plays ]

20:36.266 --> 20:40.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
Michael Blatt, who was a wealthy

20:38.233 --> 20:42.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
developer in Stockton, had been

20:40.200 --> 20:44.800 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
accused of ordering the killing

20:42.900 --> 20:46.666 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
of a former business associate.

20:44.800 --> 20:49.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
And the theory of the case was

20:46.666 --> 20:51.133 align:start position:10% line:10% size:57.5%
that he had ordered two

20:49.433 --> 20:53.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
ex-football players, that he

20:51.133 --> 20:55.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
knew because of his association

20:53.200 --> 20:56.800 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
with the UOP football team, to

20:55.233 --> 20:58.666 align:start position:10% line:10% size:50%
kill Larry Carnegie.

20:56.800 --> 21:00.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
And in fact, one of them,

20:58.666 --> 21:02.366 align:start position:10% line:10% size:55%
James Mackey,<i> did</i> kill

21:00.433 --> 21:03.800 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
Larry Carnegie by firing a

21:02.366 --> 21:05.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:45%
crossbow into him.

21:03.800 --> 21:07.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
And the case was originally

21:05.533 --> 21:07.933 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
tried by two Alameda County

21:07.233 --> 21:10.400 align:start position:10% line:10% size:20%
lawyers.

21:07.933 --> 21:12.333 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
It was a death-penalty case.

21:10.400 --> 21:14.133 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
And these lawyers had the trial

21:12.333 --> 21:15.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
and the case for a couple of

21:14.133 --> 21:17.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:15%
years.

21:15.633 --> 21:18.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
Prosecutor was determined to

21:17.433 --> 21:19.833 align:start position:10% line:10% size:22.5%
retry it.

21:18.200 --> 21:21.566 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
This case was tried by my

21:19.833 --> 21:22.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
partner, Cris Arguedas, and

21:21.566 --> 21:23.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:17.5%
myself.

21:22.233 --> 21:23.633 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:50%
>> He was a big guy.

21:23.866 --> 21:29.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
He had been a football player in

21:25.766 --> 21:30.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:20%
college.

21:26.966 --> 21:32.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:57.5%
He was a Fundamentalist

21:29.533 --> 21:34.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
Christian.

21:30.900 --> 21:36.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
He didn't like Penny and I.

21:32.466 --> 21:37.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
I'm sure he didn't like it that

21:34.233 --> 21:38.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
we were gay.

21:36.233 --> 21:40.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
He didn't like it that we were

21:37.433 --> 21:41.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
criminal defense lawyers.

21:38.433 --> 21:44.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> This was his life, this case,

21:40.066 --> 21:47.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
and his career, as it turns out.

21:41.700 --> 21:50.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
>> Penny had read the trial

21:44.633 --> 21:52.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
transcript, and she saw that

21:47.666 --> 21:53.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
Blansett has a need to talk and

21:50.966 --> 21:55.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
be listened to all the time.

21:52.433 --> 21:57.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
Penny decides that what we're

21:53.933 --> 21:59.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
gonna do is we're gonna not

21:55.333 --> 22:01.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
speak to him -- ever, for the

21:57.833 --> 22:02.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
whole trial.

21:59.066 --> 22:04.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And it drove him absolutely

22:01.566 --> 22:06.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:17.5%
insane.

22:02.466 --> 22:07.566 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> And during one point in the

22:04.200 --> 22:09.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
opening statement, Eual Blansett

22:06.066 --> 22:11.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
got so frustrated that he

22:07.566 --> 22:12.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
actually left the courtroom.

22:09.200 --> 22:14.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> And went into the bathroom,

22:11.100 --> 22:16.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
which was right next door in

22:12.900 --> 22:18.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
this old courthouse, and would

22:14.800 --> 22:20.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
be flushing the toilet during

22:16.633 --> 22:22.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
her opening statement and then

22:18.533 --> 22:23.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
make a big show of, you know,

22:20.800 --> 22:26.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
coming through the doors like

22:22.200 --> 22:27.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
this, and, you know, just to be

22:23.666 --> 22:28.600 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
a distracting, obnoxious fool.

22:26.166 --> 22:30.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
When he went, she stopped

22:27.866 --> 22:32.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:20%
talking.

22:28.600 --> 22:34.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
She waited for him to come back.

22:30.700 --> 22:35.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
And so she made<i> him</i> be the fool.

22:32.866 --> 22:37.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> He objected to every single

22:34.466 --> 22:39.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
thing, and it was really a

22:35.900 --> 22:41.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
battle, and when James Mackey

22:37.666 --> 22:43.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
went to testify, I actually

22:39.333 --> 22:47.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
cross-examined this gentleman

22:41.100 --> 22:49.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
for 20 days.

22:43.433 --> 22:52.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
>> And the judge says to us,

22:47.166 --> 22:54.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
"If you -- Counsel, if you

22:49.833 --> 22:55.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
insult the opposing counsel one

22:52.900 --> 22:57.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
more time, I'm gonna hold you in

22:54.400 --> 22:59.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
contempt, and I'm gonna charge

22:55.833 --> 23:00.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
you $100 for every time I hold

22:57.966 --> 23:01.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:42.5%
you in contempt."

22:59.333 --> 23:04.000 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
She reaches into her pocket, she

23:00.633 --> 23:06.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
takes out the wad, and she

23:01.666 --> 23:07.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
counts out 5 $100 bills, and she

23:04.000 --> 23:09.533 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
says, "Here's for this one, and

23:06.033 --> 23:11.500 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
here's for four more!"

23:07.533 --> 23:14.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
>> Towards the end, Cris was in

23:09.533 --> 23:15.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
a hallway talking to a witness.

23:11.500 --> 23:17.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
>> He says to me, "Move out of

23:14.766 --> 23:20.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:12.5%
here.

23:15.400 --> 23:22.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
I'm talking to my witness here."

23:17.800 --> 23:23.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And I say, "I'm not moving.

23:20.466 --> 23:26.333 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
I'm talking to<i> my</i> witness here.

23:22.100 --> 23:28.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:40%
It's a hallway."

23:23.033 --> 23:30.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
And he says, "I said move."

23:26.333 --> 23:32.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
And I said, "I'm not moving."

23:28.166 --> 23:34.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
He kind of picks me up like an

23:30.033 --> 23:35.633 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
inch off the floor and is kind

23:32.100 --> 23:35.633 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:77.5%
of walking me back like to move

23:34.233 --> 23:35.633 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:45%
me out of the way.

23:35.866 --> 23:40.433 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
>> And Cris fell onto the floor

23:38.200 --> 23:41.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
in the sight of some of the

23:40.433 --> 23:44.600 align:start position:10% line:10% size:17.5%
jurors.

23:41.233 --> 23:46.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
10 months later, the jury hung

23:44.600 --> 23:48.766 align:start position:10% line:10% size:47.5%
11-1 for acquittal.

23:46.900 --> 23:50.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
And the case was ultimately

23:48.766 --> 23:52.300 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
dismissed, and Mr. Blansett lost

23:50.900 --> 23:52.300 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:20%
his job.

23:52.533 --> 23:59.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
This article features the

23:54.733 --> 24:01.033 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
unbelievable battle we had,

23:57.200 --> 24:01.033 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:62.5%
entitled "Culture Clash."

23:59.466 --> 24:01.033 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:40%
And that it was.

24:05.066 --> 24:13.366 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
[ Upbeat music plays ]

24:07.700 --> 24:15.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
>> One of the very great moments

24:10.566 --> 24:17.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
in not only my legal life but my

24:13.366 --> 24:19.433 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
life itself was being able to

24:15.933 --> 24:21.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
argue for the defense in the

24:17.700 --> 24:23.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
Unites States Supreme Court.

24:19.433 --> 24:26.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
It was a very complicated matter

24:21.766 --> 24:27.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
involving a probation search

24:23.833 --> 24:30.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
that produced a large drug lab.

24:26.100 --> 24:31.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:60%
The problem was that the

24:27.900 --> 24:33.066 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
defendant had never consented to

24:30.233 --> 24:34.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:47.5%
being on probation.

24:31.733 --> 24:36.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
Court crier comes out.

24:33.066 --> 24:38.100 align:start position:10% line:74% size:80%
Then the court members come out.

24:34.900 --> 24:40.900 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
They sit, and the solicitor

24:36.466 --> 24:42.833 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
general gets up to begin his

24:38.100 --> 24:44.733 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
argument, and I am terrified.

24:40.900 --> 24:46.400 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
The Honorable Thurgood Marshall

24:42.833 --> 24:48.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
bellows into the microphone at

24:44.733 --> 24:49.866 align:start position:10% line:74% size:65%
my opponent, "When did the

24:46.400 --> 24:51.700 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
respondent here first know of

24:48.233 --> 24:53.233 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
this probation business?"

24:49.866 --> 24:55.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:72.5%
The answer -- "He was told at

24:51.700 --> 24:57.933 align:start position:10% line:74% size:25%
the door."

24:53.233 --> 24:59.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:77.5%
The justice -- "That don't give

24:55.800 --> 25:03.166 align:start position:10% line:74% size:62.5%
you any problems, do it?"

24:57.933 --> 25:04.966 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
The man's answer here -- "No."

24:59.766 --> 25:06.466 align:start position:10% line:74% size:75%
The justice -- "Oh, so he lost

25:03.166 --> 25:07.766 align:start position:10% line:74% size:67.5%
all his rights without even

25:04.966 --> 25:09.800 align:start position:10% line:74% size:55%
knowing he lost them?"

25:06.466 --> 25:11.666 align:start position:10% line:74% size:30%
[ Laughter ]

25:07.766 --> 25:13.200 align:start position:10% line:74% size:70%
And then the justice groaned

25:09.800 --> 25:13.200 align:start position:10% line:79.33% size:62.5%
uncontrollably, and I was

25:11.666 --> 25:13.200 align:start position:10% line:84.67% size:47.5%
feeling quite calm.

25:13.433 --> 25:17.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
It's not just the drama of going

25:15.366 --> 25:18.266 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
to court and objecting and

25:17.033 --> 25:20.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:45%
winning or losing.

25:18.266 --> 25:21.833 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
It's really managing people's

25:20.200 --> 25:23.366 align:start position:10% line:10% size:60%
lives when they get into

25:21.833 --> 25:25.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:55%
difficulty or trouble.

25:23.366 --> 25:26.733 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
A lot of people are critical at

25:25.033 --> 25:28.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
what you do until they need you.

25:26.733 --> 25:29.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
And when they need you, their

25:28.200 --> 25:31.100 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
whole attitude about it is

25:29.533 --> 25:32.766 align:start position:10% line:10% size:45%
totally different.

25:31.100 --> 25:33.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
People don't get guilty people

25:32.766 --> 25:35.333 align:start position:10% line:10% size:10%
off.

25:33.166 --> 25:37.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
What you do is ease a situation

25:35.333 --> 25:39.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
and try to reach compromises in

25:37.533 --> 25:42.666 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
most cases that are meaningful

25:39.633 --> 25:44.000 align:start position:10% line:10% size:37.5%
for both sides.

25:42.666 --> 25:45.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
I've received hundreds of

25:44.000 --> 25:46.133 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
letters from jail from desperate

25:45.633 --> 25:47.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:17.5%
people.

25:46.133 --> 25:48.966 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
I read them all, I usually

25:47.500 --> 25:50.133 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
respond, and occasionally, I

25:48.966 --> 25:51.400 align:start position:10% line:10% size:35%
take the case.

25:50.133 --> 25:52.866 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
My favorite letter of all,

25:51.400 --> 25:54.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
written many, many years ago by

25:52.866 --> 25:55.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
a prisoner -- At end of his

25:54.166 --> 25:56.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
letter, he's saying, "Before

25:55.500 --> 25:58.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
closing, I'd like to tell you

25:56.900 --> 25:59.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:65%
something about yourself."

25:58.166 --> 26:01.466 align:start position:10% line:10% size:30%
[ Laughter ]

25:59.900 --> 26:02.900 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
"If there is such a thing here

26:01.466 --> 26:04.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
in our society, prison, your

26:02.900 --> 26:05.666 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
name is a household word.

26:04.166 --> 26:07.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
Everyone from the Bay Area has

26:05.666 --> 26:08.166 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
been represented by you at one

26:07.166 --> 26:10.033 align:start position:10% line:10% size:45%
time in the past."

26:08.166 --> 26:11.200 align:start position:10% line:10% size:30%
[ Laughter ]

26:10.033 --> 26:12.766 align:start position:10% line:10% size:52.5%
"You have many faces.

26:11.200 --> 26:14.333 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
Sometimes you are described as

26:12.766 --> 26:14.833 align:start position:10% line:10% size:75%
being about 50 and walk with a

26:14.333 --> 26:15.966 align:start position:10% line:10% size:15%
cane."

26:14.833 --> 26:17.000 align:start position:10% line:10% size:50%
I was about 25 then.

26:15.966 --> 26:18.533 align:start position:10% line:10% size:30%
[ Laughter ]

26:17.000 --> 26:20.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
"And at other times, you wear

26:18.533 --> 26:21.700 align:start position:10% line:10% size:80%
large hats and colorful clothes.

26:20.233 --> 26:23.100 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
You drive everything from a

26:21.700 --> 26:24.733 align:start position:10% line:10% size:62.5%
Henry J to a Rolls-Royce.

26:23.100 --> 26:26.233 align:start position:10% line:10% size:77.5%
Seemingly, the 'in thing' is to

26:24.733 --> 26:27.500 align:start position:10% line:10% size:67.5%
have known you through your

26:26.233 --> 26:29.066 align:start position:10% line:10% size:57.5%
profession at one time.

26:27.500 --> 26:30.600 align:start position:10% line:10% size:72.5%
After all, without dreams and

26:29.066 --> 26:31.633 align:start position:10% line:10% size:70%
fantasies, what else have we

26:30.600 --> 26:31.633 align:start position:10% line:15.33% size:15%
here?"