[FEMALE NARRATOR]
Funding for Overheard
with Evan Smith is provided
in part by HillCo Partners,
a Texas government
affairs consultancy;
the Alice Kleberg
Reynolds Foundation;
Claire and Carl
Stuart; and by Entergy.
[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan
Smith. She's a best-selling
author and academic
whose research
on vulnerability,
courage, shame,
and empathy has won her
international acclaim.
Her latest book is "Dare
to Lead: Brave Work.
Tough Conversations.
Whole Hearts."
She's Dr. Brené Brown.
This is Overheard.
(audience applauds and cheers)
(playful music)
Let's be honest, is this about
the ability to be
learn or is this about
the experience of not
having been taught properly,
and how have you avoided
what has befallen
other nations in Africa, and
you could say that
he'd made his own bed,
but you caused him
to sleep in it.
You saw a problem, and
over time, took it on,
and let's start with
(audience laughs)
the sizzle before we get
to the steak.
(audience applauds)
Are you gonna run for president?
I think I just
got an F from you,
actually.
(audience laughs)
This is Overheard.
(audience applauds and cheers)
Dr. Brené Brown, welcome.
[BRENÉ BROWN] I'm
excited to be here.
[SMITH] It's very
nice to meet you.
Congratulations on all your
success.
[BROWN] Thank you.
[SMITH] This book
is a phenomenon.
It's only been in the
bookstores for five minutes.
It feels like it's
already a huge success.
[BROWN] Thank you.
[SMITH] I guess you've
come to expect that,
or maybe you don't want
to expect it, right?
[BROWN] I'm always nervous.
[SMITH] Of course.
It's on brand...
[BROWN] Really, really nervous.
[SMITH] It's on brand for
you to be nervous, right?
[BROWN] (laughs) Thank God!
(audience laughs)
[SMITH] To question--
[BROWN] That's good.
[SMITH] Right, so this is
a book about leadership.
Of course, all your books
are about something,
but they're really about many
things, but to the degree that
this book is about leadership,
I'm so fascinated with
your process, first.
You are a researcher,
first and foremost.
[BROWN] I am.
[SMITH] Whatever else you do,
you are a researcher
in your heart,
and in your work, principally.
This was a seven-year
effort, this book?
[BROWN] It was.
[SMITH] Talk about that,
and you interviewed,
or had interviewed,
150 different people
in corporate
executive positions,
what we call C-level executives
to understand leadership.
Talk about that.
[BROWN] So, it's a
culmination of a lot
of different pieces
of data, actually.
So, there were
interviews with leaders,
kind of global leaders across
the world, representing
a lot of different industries.
Also, evaluation
data from programs
that we have run on
courage building,
and last but not least,
a three-year effort
to build a reliable
and valid instrument
to measure courageous leadership
that we did at Wharton,
at UPenn, Kellogg,
at Northwestern, and the Jones
School of Business at Rice.
[SMITH] Amazing, so just
a multilayered project.
[BROWN] Multilayered.
[SMITH] Very ambitious,
as everything you do.
What was the question you
were trying to answer,
or what was the problem
you were trying to solve?
[BROWN] I really wanted to
know, given the increased
complexity of work
and everything
that's changing, technology,
this insatiable drive
for innovation,
globalization, "What is
"the future of leadership
going to look like?"
My first question was really,
it was pretty raw, it was,
"Who's gonna be standing
in five years leading,
"and who's not going
to be leading anymore?"
And so, that was what
I wanted to know,
"What is the future
of leadership?
"What are the skills
that we're looking for?"
[SMITH] Right.
The facile way to think
about leadership is
a good leader is
somebody who succeeds,
and the road to the
destination may be different,
but the destination
ultimately is some kind
of metric, some kind of success.
This book, to me, seems
to, not necessarily regard
success as as important
as the way you got there,
or maybe not the
definition of success
that we're all used
to, because I was
so interested in
the kinds of leaders
who succeed, rather than
what they ultimately do.
Now, I assume you believe the
best leaders are gonna produce
success, and so we
oughta be focusing
on the inputs rather
than the outputs.
That's how I interpreted this.
[BROWN] I think it's about
the definition of success.
I think you're right.
I think it's about, and
for the first time ever,
we're seeing studies
where the definition
of success is shifting for the
first time in 60, 70 years.
[SMITH] Talk about that.
[BROWN] Well, people are
saying, instead of talking
about titles, money,
offices, they're talking about
family, community,
relationships,
connection, contributing,
making the world a better place,
and people talked
about that a lot,
but never really
talked about that
in terms of success,
so I think--
[SMITH] It's not all
financial metrics.
[BROWN] It's not all financial.
[SMITH] It's not all
shareholder returns, right?
[BROWN] It's not all
financial metrics.
and it's not all ego metrics,
[SMITH] Right, ego metrics.
Well, so, this point you made
about it's not all title
and it's not all status,
that was one of the big
takeaways from this book.
That leadership is not
about, or only about,
title, status, acquiring
power, because that makes
leadership about me, when
really, if you lead an
organization, leadership
is about them.
It's about collaboration,
it's about enabling
and unlocking the
potential of the people who
you work with. And
that really does cut
against the grain of
our traditional sense
of the fancy and
powerful executive
in a glass office
with people waiting
on him, mostly it's been him
over time, hand and foot.
You've really turned
the conversation around
about what leadership
should be about,
even if it isn't
always about that.
- I think it's about,
people have been writing
about servant leadership
for a long time,
and I think this is
about servant leadership.
I also think, we
define a leader, based
on our research,
as anyone who holds
themselves responsible
for finding the potential
in people and processes
and has the courage
to develop that
potential. And I have been
in C-Suites, those
top-corner offices.
I couldn't find a
leader to save my life.
I was lookin' under desks.
[SMITH] Based on that
definition. [BROWN]
Yeah, yeah, right.
And I've been on
warehouse and shop floors
where I was surrounded by
people who were leaders,
who looked at problems
and people and thought,
"There's potential
here, and I'm gonna take
"responsibility
for developing it."
- Yeah, is that
approach to leadership,
that selflessness, making it
about them not us or you, is
that something that's learned
behavior, or is that innate?
Is that something
that we're coded
that way, or wired that way?
- I think, we call it courageous
leadership, and I
think it's a skillset.
I think we have to,
I think there's some
genuine feelings of compassion
for people that a
lot of people have,
and some people have
shortages of, clearly,
(audience laughs)
but--
[SMITH] Can you
correct that, though?
That's my question, I guess.
Can you correct for that?
Can you pivot?
At a point in your
career where you realize
you're making it too
much about yourself, can
you successfully pivot to be the
kind of person
you're talking about?
[BROWN] With
self-awareness, yes.
I think there's hope for us all.
I believe in the absolute
inherent goodness
of people, and I
think people are
really scary when
they're in fear.
[SMITH] People are scary
when they're in fear.
They behave in ways
that are scary.
[BROWN] Yes, yes,
[SMTIH] Yeah, right.
[BROWN] Yes.
- I guess we've all
been conditioned,
those of us who have
been fortunate enough
to be in positions of
leadership have been conditioned
to believe that we
can train anybody
or fix anybody or
bring anybody up
or bring anybody along, that
anybody is a potential leader.
And it feels to me, reading
this book, maybe not so much.
That there are people
who are probably
just not cut out for this,
or designed for this,
or am I being too
hard on people?
[BROWN] I think you're
being too hard on people.
[SMITH] So you think
anybody can qualify
by the standards you've
set down here, as a leader?
- I think we all
have the potential
to develop courage, and
be courageous leaders.
I think that's absolutely true.
I think it's hard work.
I think it takes a
tremendous amount
of self-awareness
and introspection,
but I think we all have
the capacity for it,
but I do believe
there are people
who will choose not to
do it intentionally.
So, I mentioned the takeaways.
There are a lot of
takeaways from this book,
but my own takeaways
reading this book were
first of all, that it's not all
about title and
status, as I said.
The second thing, you
mentioned just now,
which was
self-awareness. The idea
that the best leaders show their
vulnerability, lead with
their vulnerability.
Vulnerability is a
narrative through line
in so much of what you've done,
and I wanna come back to
this in a bigger-picture way
than just simply in this book,
but that is a big component
of the best leaders.
The best leaders are self-aware,
they acknowledge,
understand, and
almost shine a light
on their weaknesses,
imperfections.
[BROWN] The definition
of vulnerability is
uncertainty, risk, and
emotional exposure.
You can't, I remember
being at Fort Bragg
and asking a group of
special forces troops,
"Give me an example of
courage that you experienced
"in your life, on the
field or off the field,
"or you saw in someone
else that didn't require
"uncertainty, risk, and
emotional exposure,"
and there was this long
silence, and finally,
a young man stood up and said,
"Three tours, ma'am.
"There is no courage
without vulnerability."
I don't think you
can get to courage
without the capacity to
deal with uncertainty,
risk, and emotional exposure,
and we've mythologized
vulnerability as weakness.
[SMITH] We've created this
ideal that's
ultimately unrealistic.
[BROWN] Yeah, and it's
like that it's weakness,
that it's oversharing,
that people will say to
me, "I read 'Dare to Lead.'
"I'm gonna be a brave leader.
"How much should I cry?
"How much should I share?"
(audience laughs)
and I'm like...
[SMITH] Right.
As if there's a
cheat sheet, right?
[BROWN] Yeah, and as if we want
oversharing, crying leaders.
If it's a genuine thing,
do it, but I'm not saying
to be vulnerable for
vulnerability's sake,
I'm saying when things get
hard and uncomfortable,
don't tap out of
difficult conversations.
Stay in them, lean into them,
even when they're
uncomfortable, awkward, hard.
[SMITH] Right, well,
if, as the theory goes,
we're all vulnerable,
we're all afraid,
we all feel imperfect
[BROWN] For sure.
[SMITH] or insufficient,
we all lack confidence at times,
[BROWN] At times, yeah.
[SMITH] then maybe
being who you are
by showing that stuff is
a form of authenticity
that we're lacking across
the world these days.
- Across the world.
- When you identify
somebody who is
successfully
authentic, often what
they're simply doing
is being themselves,
and that necessarily means
showing those vulnerabilities.
[BROWN] At times, yeah. I
think that's absolutely right.
I think that saying
that's a great example
of that in leadership
is a vulnerability
to not need to be the knower.
So, so many leaders
feel like they need
to be the knower and be right,
and that's more
important than being
the learner and
getting it right.
And so one part of vulnerability
is to look at someone
and say, "I don't
know the answer.
"Let's dig in together."
[SMITH] Or even something,
again, I'm thinking about
leadership in a little bit
more conventional terms,
even something as
simple as not being
the knower and having that mean
that you sit quietly and let
somebody else be the knower.
Even if you actually
are the knower,
one great thing about
leading an organization
or leading a team is
giving those people
the opportunity to rise
up and be the knower.
Right?
[BROWN] And that's hard,
because a lot of people that
we move into leadership,
and not just in
corporate leadership,
but civic leadership,
faith communities,
we bring up people
who love gold stars,
and they've earned
a lot of gold stars,
but then all of the
sudden, they're,
myself included, but
all of the sudden,
you're a leader and
your job is no longer
to collect gold stars,
but to give gold stars.
And then you're like,
"What about my gold stars?"
(audience laughs)
[SMITH] Well, this is
the thing, honestly,
the thing about being the boss
that sometimes sucks,
but really doesn't,
honestly, is if you're the boss,
you don't get the credit
even if you deserve it,
and you take the blame even
if you don't deserve it.
The most successful
leaders understand
that they've got to
protect everybody,
but at the same time, they
have to share the credit,
right?
[BROWN] That's, yeah.
[SMITH] Share the gold stars.
[BROWN] Share the gold stars.
[SMITH] Let somebody
else be the knower,
[BROWN] Give the gold stars.
Catch people doing things right.
- You've talked about
courage a couple of times,
and the whole idea of courageous
leadership interests me,
because is there non-courageous,
I kind of wonder,
[BROWN] Yes.
- what is the difference between
courageous leadership and
non-courageous leadership.
[BROWN] I'm so glad you asked,
because--
[SMITH] Oh, good, okay.
[BROWN] This--
[SMITH] I'll sit here and not be
the knower, how about that?
[BROWN] Yes, no,
I'm obsessed with this.
(audience laughs)
I'm obsessed with this,
because I was wrong.
I hypothesized that
the greatest barrier,
and I'm wrong like
70% of the times
with my hypotheses, (laughs) but
I really hypothesized
that the biggest
barrier to daring leadership
would be fear, right?
That would make, that
makes sense to me.
Then I went and
reinterviewed some
of the most courageous
leaders we had talked to,
and I was like, "How do
you stay out of fear,"
and they looked at me like,
"I'm afraid all day long,
"every day," and I'm like, "No,
but you're a daring leader,"
and they're like,
"Well, maybe so,
"but I'm afraid all day long."
What we realized is that
it's not fear that gets
in the way of courageous
leadership, it's armor.
It's not that we're,
we're all afraid
and brave all day long,
sometimes in the same moment.
But what gets in the way
of courageous leadership is
when we're in fear, do
we keep the armor off,
or do we armor up
and self-protect
in ways that move us
away from authenticity,
that move us away from courage?
And so, it's, I
think the opposite
of courageous leadership
is armored leadership.
- Yeah, I love this, so, I
really, I don't wanna move
too far, but I wanna
move more broadly
to your whole, the
Brené Brown universe.
The books, the TED
Talks, the research.
It seems to me that there's
a narrative through line
that is counterintuitive,
but is amazing
in its counterintuitiveness,
and that is
that weakness is strength.
And this is something
that I feel we've been taught
from the time we were children,
parents tell us to be strong.
When we're in school,
teachers tell us to be strong.
When we go out into
the world of work,
strength is an asset,
not a liability.
Politicians talk all the time
about the need for strength.
We have a President
of the United States
who is all about
articulating strength,
if not actual strength, right?
Weakness is a liability.
At the advertising
world, there's
actually a deodorant commercial
whose tagline is "Never
let 'em see you sweat."
What is that if not
a rebuke of the idea that
weakness is a positive?
I'm just so fascinated
by this idea,
because we're
conditioned, all of us,
to think that
weakness is weakness,
not weakness is strength, but
you've turned it upside down.
- I think, for me,
the way I would frame
what you just said is that
we're all taught to be brave,
and then warned to
not be vulnerable.
And I think that doesn't exist.
[SMITH] As if those
are different things.
[BROWN] As if they're mutually
exclusive.
[SMITH] Right, they T-bone,
yeah, right.
[BROWN] Yeah, they T-bone, yeah.
And I just cannot, in
400,000 pieces of data, find
a single example of
a courageous person,
or a courageous act that
didn't require vulnerability.
When we ask people,
"What is vulnerability?"
'cause the mythology, right,
is that it's weakness,
right--
[SMITH] Yeah, right.
[BROWN] and so,
when you ask people,
"What is vulnerability?"
"The first date
after my divorce."
"Trying to get pregnant
after my second miscarriage."
"Sitting with my wife,
who has stage-four
"breast cancer, trying to
make plans for our toddlers."
"Starting my own business."
"Losing my business."
"Getting fired."
"Having to fire someone."
One of my favorites,
"Being in a relationship
"and saying, 'I
love you,' first."
Those are scary,
they're terrifying,
they're uncomfortable,
they're uncertain,
but by no one's measure
are those weakness.
And so, we have to
push back and dispel this idea
that vulnerability is weakness.
I could challenge the
audience sitting here,
people watching,
Give me an example of
courage. One, from anybody.
Give me an example of courage
that does not require
uncertainty, risk--
[SMITH] Is not accompanied by
risk and fear, right.
[BROWN] You can't, and
that was, if special forces
over the last five years
can't give me an example,
if I'm working with fighter
pilots that can't give
me an example, the Seattle
Seahawks can't give
me an example, people
who are really,
firefighters, police officers,
there's no courage
without vulnerability.
[SMITH] Right, but you, I
hear you, and I embrace this,
I think this is a great
thought about the world,
but I'm also back to confronting
the reality that we are
conditioned to believe
that if we are not
strong, we're weak.
And that if we show any
sign, a crack of light,
and again, I come
back to politics.
I think about the
political environment.
We've just come through
an election season,
in which we hear
about the importance
of the strength of our country,
the strength of our leaders,
the strength of our communities.
We don't say, "America is great
"because America is vulnerable."
we never hear that
at election time,
or that America is entitled to
be fearful about the future.
It's just that it's
this, I just think
of it as almost a
psychological version
of toxic masculinity, right?
[BROWN] Yeah, yeah, I think
that's right, and
here's the thing
that I've also learned
in the research:
Uncertainty is
hard for all of us.
I'm a terrible person.
Uncertainty is
dangerous. But one of
the surest ways to gain power is
if you take people who
are in uncertainty,
and you sell them
certainty and give them
an enemy to blame
for their pain.
- Yep.
[BROWN] You can get away with
just almost about anything.
You just completely
villainize that.
And so, it's really hard
to talk about sometimes,
because I started my
research six months
before 9/11,
coincidentally, and I'm
a qualitative
researcher, so I do
most of my data
gathering in interviews
or focus groups or
meeting with large groups
of people, looking
into people's eyes,
and fear has changed who we are.
I have watched it happen.
[SMITH] Right.
Well, one of the ways,
I'm just thinking,
as fresh as the headlines
that we've been watching
unfold over the last
couple of weeks,
fear often causes us
to demonize the other.
[BROWN] For sure.
[Smith] Right, so
we heard a lot about
this caravan, notice
after Election Day,
we haven't heard a word about
the caravan, right?
[BROWN] Yeah.
- But leading up to Election
Day, all it was was the
caravan, the caravan,
is an invasion coming?
If you breadcrumb that
back to its origins,
basically, it's about
fear of the other,
right?
[BROWN] For sure.
[SMITH] So I'm really
interested in what kind of
behavior that fear causes in us
when it's villainized, right?
It separates us from people as
opposed to brings us together.
- It does, and here's
the thing about,
and not just about other people,
but myself included, we are much
better at causing pain
than feeling our own pain.
We are much better
at taking what's
hard and raw and rage
and if you give us
someone to hate, and you give us
a narrative about why
they're dangerous,
and if you give us a narrative
about why they are to
blame for our pain,
for our addicted children,
for our loss of our jobs,
[SMITH] It's easy to take that.
[BROWN] It's, yeah,
come on, give me something
to do with this stuff
that is killing me
to feel every day.
[SMITH] Yeah, and the knowledge
that we can do that is
comforting to some people
who don't have other answers
for our problems, right?
[BROWN] Yes, yeah.
But how many of us would
love a leader that says,
"You know what, these
are uncertain times,
"and we need to dig in together,
"and we need to be
curious together."
- Right.
Well, so let me go to that.
That's interesting.
So, you say, "It's easier to
feel someone else, or to--
[BROWN] "It's
easier to cause pain
than to feel our own pain.
[SMITH] "Cause pain than to feel
"our own pain."
How easy is it to feel
somebody else's pain?
Your focus on empathy over
time is really interesting
to me, because again, I think
about everything through
a political context,
and what we see in
the political universe
and in the universe
period right now is
something, in my mind,
of an empathy deficit.
[BROWN] Huge.
[SMITH] Huge.
We don't empathize
with the predicaments
or plights of other people,
and when a figure comes along
who seems genuinely
empathetic, it is notable,
and here I'm going to
turn to our fellow Texan.
Your fellow Texan and mine, a
congressman named Beto O'Rourke,
who captured the attention
of the entire country,
not just the state
in which he ran,
as it turned out, unsuccessfully
for the United States
Senate, but transcended
his own race to become
a national figure,
in large measure, because he
seemed, unlike so many people
in that situation,
genuinely empathetic.
How many times did you see him
with his arm draped around
somebody at a campaign rally?
It never seemed cynical.
It always seemed authentic.
He spoke in ways that
seemed genuinely empathetic,
and this was notable
because of its absence
in the political world
and in the world now.
Why is it so hard
to be empathetic?
Why?
What about human nature
makes it so hard?
- Well, I'll go back and say
this, as, full disclosure,
someone who supported Beto...
[SMITH] Not illegal
yet to say that.
[BROWN] Yes, yes.
Oh, yes, but I did.
He was not, he did
not win the election,
but I'm not sure that
he wasn't successful.
I'm not sure that
he didn't, yeah--
(audience applauds)
I think he showed us
what was possible, and--
[SMITH] And it seems,
by the way, completely
in keeping with your
whole rap about fear,
vulnerability, empathy, right?
[BROWN] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- I think we have some
work in our country
to do, obviously,
about acknowledging
the pain and fear that
a lot of people are in.
I think, if anything
good has come from
what we have seen, I'm
just gonna just lay it
on out there, because
(audience laughs)
I feel like Townes Van
Zandt has been in this room,
so I feel called to do that.
(audience laughs)
[SMITH] You go.
[BROWN] Yeah.
I feel like I'm not
someone who looks
for the silver lining
in really hard things,
because sometimes,
just bad stuff happens,
and you can grow from it
and be grateful later.
But I have to say, if anything,
if any learning has been worth
some of the pain,
it is the learning
of the white moderate
who has convinced
themselves that the
racism, the sexism,
the things that we are seeing
in full sight now were gone.
That I think people of color
knew that they were there.
I think for a lot of
us, like for me, I'm 52.
I thought sexual harassment was
the price of admission to work.
And so, I think, if anything,
Jungian therapist,
Pittman McGehee is
this Jungian therapist and used
to be at our church in
Houston, and he says
that from the Jungian tradition,
every great progression
will require
a massive regression
before it happens.
(audience oohs)
And so, I hold onto
that, I believe that.
[SMITH] You think this is
the massive regression?
(audience laughs)
[BROWN] I do.
(audience applauds)
Not this interview!
[SMITH] Yeah, no--
[BROWN] Not y'all!
[SMITH] --yeah, yeah,
I didn't think it
was going that badly,
but, yeah, yeah.
[BROWN] Yeah, no, no.
[SMITH] But of course,
I wonder though,
we'd like it to be the
massive regression,
because we know that
the progression is
around the corner,
but how do you know that it's
not one of those situations
where you go down
into the basement
only to discover there's
another basement?
(audience laughs)
Right?
[BROWN] I choose hope.
I choose to believe.
[SMITH] I feel like in the world
these days, I always
think I've hit the floor,
and then I go, "Oop,
nope, it turns out
"there's another
floor down there."
[BROWN] That's easy to
do today, especially
because I know you keep track
of your politics, (laughs)
so it's like there's
basement upon basement,
but I do believe,
if you talk going
back to Beto
O'Rourke, I do believe
he showed us what was possible,
And I believe that his empathy
and his vulnerability
in some ways,
I perceived as massive strength.
And I just remember seeing
a picture of him cooking
breakfast in the
morning in his house,
and he had--
[SMITH] Was he sweaty?
(audience laughs)
[BROWN] And he had a
Metallica shirt
on, and I was like,
"That's a scene in my house
when my husband's cooking
"chorizo and eggs"--
[SMITH] Very relatable.
[BROWN] Yeah, totally relatable.
And I thought, but
here's the thing.
You know what?
A lot of us, sometimes you say,
"You get the leaders
you deserve."
A lot of us don't want the
relatable guy in the T-shirt.
They want Oz.
They want Oz.
They want the man
behind the curtain.
They don't want the
person, "I don't want
"the person that
looks like my husband.
"I don't want my
husband running things,"
or, "I don't want,
what do you mean, me?
"Uh-uh, no, it can't be me.
"I need that father figure
thing or something."
Where I don't, I'm like,
"Give us the reins.
"It's time," but
you gotta remember,
there are people
who don't want the people
who lead this country
to look like us, because
they don't trust themselves,
and they don't trust
people who are--
[SMITH] So they have a lack,
so it gets, really,
back to, it's a classic
Brené Brown, they don't have
confidence in themselves,
and so they assume
that if someone looks
like them, that they
can't have confidence
and wouldn't have
confidence in that person.
[BROWN] I think sometimes, yeah.
I think that sometimes
that's the case.
[SMITH] We elevate
the ideal in all ways,
in all situations--
[BROWN] And then, yes,
and I have to add this,
and there's also
just systemic racism,
classism, and sexism at work.
[SMITH] Right.
Well, I'm afraid
we're out of time,
and that's an enormously
upbeat place to end--
[BROWN] Oh my God!
[SMITH] --isn't it?
(audience laughs)
[BROWN] Let's end
on love or something
good. [SMITH] (laughs)
Yeah, good, okay.
Well you made the heart
sign with your hands.
That's actually good.
(audience laughs)
I appreciate your sincerity
and your hard work
and your vision, and your
success is earned and deserved,
[BROWN] Thanks.
[SMITH] And it's
really just a delight
to get to hear from you
just in a short time,
but I look forward to
continuing to see what you do.
[BROWN] Thank you.
[SMITH] Thank you for giving
us all so much to think about.
[BROWN] Thank you.
[SMITH] Dr. Brené Brown.
(audience applauds and cheers)
[SMITH] We'd love to have
you join us in the studio.
Visit our website at
klru.org/overheard
to find invitations
to interviews,
Q and As with our
audience and guests,
and an archive of past episodes.
[BROWN] I'm a huge believer,
myself a consumer of, therapy.
When you're setting boundaries,
[AUDIENCE MEMBER] Yeah, me too.
- in your family of origin,
having a helping professional,
a therapist, a social
worker, a counselor,
who, sometimes I would
just go in and be like,
"I just wanna role play
with you for 30 minutes,
"and then I'm gonna cuss
for 20, and I'll write
you a check."
(audience laughs)
[NARRATOR] Funding
for Overheard with
Evan Smith is
provided in part by
HillCo Partners, a
Texas government affairs
consultancy; the Alice
Kleberg Reynolds Foundation;
Claire and Carl
Stuart; and by Entergy.
(relaxing music)