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[FEMALE NARRATOR] 
Funding for Overheard

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with Evan Smith is provided 
in part by HillCo Partners,

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a Texas government 
affairs consultancy;

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the Alice Kleberg 
Reynolds Foundation;

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Claire and Carl 
Stuart; and by Entergy.

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[EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan 
Smith. She's a best-selling

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author and academic 
whose research

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on vulnerability, 
courage, shame,

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and empathy has won her 
international acclaim.

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Her latest book is "Dare 
to Lead: Brave Work.

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Tough Conversations. 
Whole Hearts."

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She's Dr. Brené Brown.

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This is Overheard.

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(audience applauds and cheers) 
(playful music)

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Let's be honest, is this about

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the ability to be 
learn or is this about

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the experience of not 
having been taught properly,

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and how have you avoided 
what has befallen

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other nations in Africa, and

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you could say that 
he'd made his own bed,

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but you caused him 
to sleep in it.

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You saw a problem, and 
over time, took it on,

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and let's start with 
(audience laughs)

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the sizzle before we get

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to the steak. 
(audience applauds)

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Are you gonna run for president?

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I think I just 
got an F from you,

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actually. 
(audience laughs)

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This is Overheard.

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(audience applauds and cheers)

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Dr. Brené Brown, welcome.

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[BRENÉ BROWN] I'm 
excited to be here.

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[SMITH] It's very 
nice to meet you.

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Congratulations on all your

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success. 
[BROWN] Thank you.

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[SMITH] This book 
is a phenomenon.

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It's only been in the 
bookstores for five minutes.

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It feels like it's 
already a huge success.

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[BROWN] Thank you.

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[SMITH] I guess you've 
come to expect that,

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or maybe you don't want 
to expect it, right?

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[BROWN] I'm always nervous.

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[SMITH] Of course. 
It's on brand...

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[BROWN] Really, really nervous.

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[SMITH] It's on brand for 
you to be nervous, right?

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[BROWN] (laughs) Thank God!

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(audience laughs)

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[SMITH] To question-- 
[BROWN] That's good.

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[SMITH] Right, so this is 
a book about leadership.

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Of course, all your books 
are about something,

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but they're really about many 
things, but to the degree that

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this book is about leadership,

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I'm so fascinated with 
your process, first.

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You are a researcher, 
first and foremost.

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[BROWN] I am. 
[SMITH] Whatever else you do,

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you are a researcher 
in your heart,

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and in your work, principally.

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This was a seven-year 
effort, this book?

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[BROWN] It was.

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[SMITH] Talk about that, 
and you interviewed,

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or had interviewed, 
150 different people

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in corporate 
executive positions,

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what we call C-level executives 
to understand leadership.

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Talk about that.

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[BROWN] So, it's a 
culmination of a lot

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of different pieces 
of data, actually.

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So, there were 
interviews with leaders,

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kind of global leaders across 
the world, representing

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a lot of different industries.

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Also, evaluation 
data from programs

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that we have run on 
courage building,

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and last but not least, 
a three-year effort

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to build a reliable 
and valid instrument

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to measure courageous leadership

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that we did at Wharton, 
at UPenn, Kellogg,

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at Northwestern, and the Jones 
School of Business at Rice.

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[SMITH] Amazing, so just 
a multilayered project.

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[BROWN] Multilayered.

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[SMITH] Very ambitious, 
as everything you do.

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What was the question you 
were trying to answer,

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or what was the problem 
you were trying to solve?

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[BROWN] I really wanted to 
know, given the increased

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complexity of work 
and everything

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that's changing, technology, 
this insatiable drive

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for innovation, 
globalization, "What is

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"the future of leadership 
going to look like?"

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My first question was really, 
it was pretty raw, it was,

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"Who's gonna be standing 
in five years leading,

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"and who's not going 
to be leading anymore?"

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And so, that was what 
I wanted to know,

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"What is the future 
of leadership?

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"What are the skills 
that we're looking for?"

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[SMITH] Right.

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The facile way to think 
about leadership is

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a good leader is 
somebody who succeeds,

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and the road to the 
destination may be different,

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but the destination 
ultimately is some kind

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of metric, some kind of success.

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This book, to me, seems 
to, not necessarily regard

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success as as important 
as the way you got there,

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or maybe not the 
definition of success

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that we're all used 
to, because I was

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so interested in 
the kinds of leaders

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who succeed, rather than 
what they ultimately do.

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Now, I assume you believe the 
best leaders are gonna produce

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success, and so we 
oughta be focusing

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on the inputs rather 
than the outputs.

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That's how I interpreted this.

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[BROWN] I think it's about 
the definition of success.

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I think you're right.

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I think it's about, and 
for the first time ever,

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we're seeing studies 
where the definition

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of success is shifting for the 
first time in 60, 70 years.

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[SMITH] Talk about that.

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[BROWN] Well, people are 
saying, instead of talking

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about titles, money,

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offices, they're talking about

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family, community, 
relationships,

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connection, contributing, 
making the world a better place,

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and people talked 
about that a lot,

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but never really 
talked about that

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in terms of success, 
so I think--

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[SMITH] It's not all 
financial metrics.

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[BROWN] It's not all financial.

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[SMITH] It's not all 
shareholder returns, right?

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[BROWN] It's not all 
financial metrics.

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and it's not all ego metrics,

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[SMITH] Right, ego metrics.

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Well, so, this point you made

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about it's not all title 
and it's not all status,

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that was one of the big 
takeaways from this book.

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That leadership is not 
about, or only about,

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title, status, acquiring 
power, because that makes

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leadership about me, when 
really, if you lead an

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organization, leadership 
is about them.

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It's about collaboration, 
it's about enabling

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and unlocking the 
potential of the people who

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you work with. And 
that really does cut

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against the grain of 
our traditional sense

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of the fancy and 
powerful executive

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in a glass office 
with people waiting

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on him, mostly it's been him 
over time, hand and foot.

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You've really turned 
the conversation around

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about what leadership 
should be about,

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even if it isn't 
always about that.

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- I think it's about, 
people have been writing

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about servant leadership 
for a long time,

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and I think this is 
about servant leadership.

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I also think, we 
define a leader, based

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on our research, 
as anyone who holds

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themselves responsible 
for finding the potential

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in people and processes 
and has the courage

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to develop that 
potential. And I have been

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in C-Suites, those 
top-corner offices.

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I couldn't find a 
leader to save my life.

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I was lookin' under desks.

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[SMITH] Based on that 
definition. [BROWN] 
Yeah, yeah, right.

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And I've been on 
warehouse and shop floors

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where I was surrounded by 
people who were leaders,

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who looked at problems 
and people and thought,

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"There's potential 
here, and I'm gonna take

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"responsibility 
for developing it."

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- Yeah, is that 
approach to leadership,

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that selflessness, making it 
about them not us or you, is

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that something that's learned 
behavior, or is that innate?

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Is that something 
that we're coded

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that way, or wired that way?

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- I think, we call it courageous

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leadership, and I 
think it's a skillset.

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I think we have to, 
I think there's some

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genuine feelings of compassion

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for people that a 
lot of people have,

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and some people have 
shortages of, clearly,

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(audience laughs)

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but--

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[SMITH] Can you 
correct that, though?

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That's my question, I guess.

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Can you correct for that?

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Can you pivot?

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At a point in your 
career where you realize

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you're making it too 
much about yourself, can

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you successfully pivot to be the

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kind of person 
you're talking about?

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[BROWN] With 
self-awareness, yes.

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I think there's hope for us all.

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I believe in the absolute 
inherent goodness

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of people, and I 
think people are

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really scary when 
they're in fear.

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[SMITH] People are scary 
when they're in fear.

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They behave in ways 
that are scary.

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[BROWN] Yes, yes,

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[SMTIH] Yeah, right. 
[BROWN] Yes.

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- I guess we've all 
been conditioned,

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those of us who have 
been fortunate enough

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to be in positions of 
leadership have been conditioned

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to believe that we 
can train anybody

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or fix anybody or 
bring anybody up

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or bring anybody along, that 
anybody is a potential leader.

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And it feels to me, reading 
this book, maybe not so much.

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That there are people 
who are probably

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just not cut out for this, 
or designed for this,

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or am I being too 
hard on people?

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[BROWN] I think you're 
being too hard on people.

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[SMITH] So you think 
anybody can qualify

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by the standards you've 
set down here, as a leader?

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- I think we all 
have the potential

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to develop courage, and 
be courageous leaders.

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I think that's absolutely true.

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I think it's hard work.

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I think it takes a 
tremendous amount

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of self-awareness 
and introspection,

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but I think we all have 
the capacity for it,

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but I do believe 
there are people

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who will choose not to 
do it intentionally.

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So, I mentioned the takeaways.

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There are a lot of 
takeaways from this book,

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but my own takeaways 
reading this book were

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first of all, that it's not all

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about title and 
status, as I said.

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The second thing, you 
mentioned just now,

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which was 
self-awareness. The idea

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that the best leaders show their

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vulnerability, lead with 
their vulnerability.

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Vulnerability is a 
narrative through line

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in so much of what you've done,

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and I wanna come back to 
this in a bigger-picture way

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than just simply in this book,

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but that is a big component 
of the best leaders.

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The best leaders are self-aware,

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they acknowledge, 
understand, and

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almost shine a light 
on their weaknesses,

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imperfections.

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[BROWN] The definition 
of vulnerability is

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uncertainty, risk, and 
emotional exposure.

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You can't, I remember 
being at Fort Bragg

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and asking a group of 
special forces troops,

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"Give me an example of 
courage that you experienced

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"in your life, on the 
field or off the field,

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"or you saw in someone 
else that didn't require

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"uncertainty, risk, and 
emotional exposure,"

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and there was this long 
silence, and finally,

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a young man stood up and said,

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"Three tours, ma'am.

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"There is no courage 
without vulnerability."

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I don't think you 
can get to courage

246
00:08:49,133 --> 00:08:52,033
without the capacity to 
deal with uncertainty,

247
00:08:52,033 --> 00:08:54,633
risk, and emotional exposure, 
and we've mythologized

248
00:08:54,633 --> 00:08:56,433
vulnerability as weakness. 
[SMITH] We've created this

249
00:08:56,433 --> 00:08:58,133
ideal that's 
ultimately unrealistic.

250
00:08:58,133 --> 00:08:59,633
[BROWN] Yeah, and it's 
like that it's weakness,

251
00:08:59,633 --> 00:09:01,233
that it's oversharing,

252
00:09:01,233 --> 00:09:03,800
that people will say to 
me, "I read 'Dare to Lead.'

253
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,600
"I'm gonna be a brave leader.

254
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:06,633
"How much should I cry?

255
00:09:06,633 --> 00:09:07,700
"How much should I share?"

256
00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:08,600
(audience laughs)

257
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,633
and I'm like...

258
00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:11,833
[SMITH] Right.

259
00:09:11,833 --> 00:09:13,300
As if there's a 
cheat sheet, right?

260
00:09:13,300 --> 00:09:16,033
[BROWN] Yeah, and as if we want 
oversharing, crying leaders.

261
00:09:16,033 --> 00:09:19,733
If it's a genuine thing, 
do it, but I'm not saying

262
00:09:19,733 --> 00:09:21,700
to be vulnerable for 
vulnerability's sake,

263
00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:24,466
I'm saying when things get 
hard and uncomfortable,

264
00:09:24,466 --> 00:09:27,100
don't tap out of 
difficult conversations.

265
00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:28,833
Stay in them, lean into them,

266
00:09:28,833 --> 00:09:31,666
even when they're 
uncomfortable, awkward, hard.

267
00:09:31,666 --> 00:09:33,366
[SMITH] Right, well, 
if, as the theory goes,

268
00:09:33,366 --> 00:09:36,233
we're all vulnerable, 
we're all afraid,

269
00:09:36,233 --> 00:09:38,100
we all feel imperfect

270
00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:38,933
[BROWN] For sure.

271
00:09:38,933 --> 00:09:39,966
[SMITH] or insufficient,

272
00:09:39,966 --> 00:09:40,800
we all lack confidence at times,

273
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,366
[BROWN] At times, yeah.

274
00:09:42,366 --> 00:09:43,633
[SMITH] then maybe 
being who you are

275
00:09:43,633 --> 00:09:46,233
by showing that stuff is 
a form of authenticity

276
00:09:46,233 --> 00:09:48,733
that we're lacking across 
the world these days.

277
00:09:48,733 --> 00:09:49,933
- Across the world.

278
00:09:49,933 --> 00:09:51,266
- When you identify 
somebody who is

279
00:09:51,266 --> 00:09:53,633
successfully 
authentic, often what

280
00:09:53,633 --> 00:09:55,666
they're simply doing 
is being themselves,

281
00:09:55,666 --> 00:09:58,900
and that necessarily means 
showing those vulnerabilities.

282
00:09:58,900 --> 00:10:00,500
[BROWN] At times, yeah. I 
think that's absolutely right.

283
00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:02,600
I think that saying 
that's a great example

284
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,166
of that in leadership 
is a vulnerability

285
00:10:05,166 --> 00:10:07,833
to not need to be the knower.

286
00:10:07,833 --> 00:10:09,833
So, so many leaders 
feel like they need

287
00:10:09,833 --> 00:10:11,100
to be the knower and be right,

288
00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:13,166
and that's more 
important than being

289
00:10:13,166 --> 00:10:15,600
the learner and 
getting it right.

290
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,266
And so one part of vulnerability 
is to look at someone

291
00:10:18,266 --> 00:10:19,400
and say, "I don't 
know the answer.

292
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,933
"Let's dig in together."

293
00:10:20,933 --> 00:10:22,433
[SMITH] Or even something, 
again, I'm thinking about

294
00:10:22,433 --> 00:10:23,933
leadership in a little bit 
more conventional terms,

295
00:10:23,933 --> 00:10:25,600
even something as 
simple as not being

296
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,466
the knower and having that mean

297
00:10:27,466 --> 00:10:30,366
that you sit quietly and let 
somebody else be the knower.

298
00:10:30,366 --> 00:10:32,600
Even if you actually 
are the knower,

299
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,600
one great thing about 
leading an organization

300
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,666
or leading a team is 
giving those people

301
00:10:36,666 --> 00:10:38,233
the opportunity to rise 
up and be the knower.

302
00:10:38,233 --> 00:10:39,733
Right? 
[BROWN] And that's hard,

303
00:10:39,733 --> 00:10:41,233
because a lot of people that 
we move into leadership,

304
00:10:41,233 --> 00:10:42,600
and not just in 
corporate leadership,

305
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,966
but civic leadership, 
faith communities,

306
00:10:46,966 --> 00:10:49,933
we bring up people 
who love gold stars,

307
00:10:49,933 --> 00:10:51,400
and they've earned 
a lot of gold stars,

308
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,666
but then all of the 
sudden, they're,

309
00:10:52,666 --> 00:10:54,333
myself included, but 
all of the sudden,

310
00:10:54,333 --> 00:10:56,400
you're a leader and 
your job is no longer

311
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,300
to collect gold stars, 
but to give gold stars.

312
00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,866
And then you're like, 
"What about my gold stars?"

313
00:11:02,866 --> 00:11:04,100
(audience laughs)

314
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:05,400
[SMITH] Well, this is 
the thing, honestly,

315
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,633
the thing about being the boss

316
00:11:06,633 --> 00:11:08,866
that sometimes sucks, 
but really doesn't,

317
00:11:08,866 --> 00:11:11,066
honestly, is if you're the boss,

318
00:11:11,066 --> 00:11:13,633
you don't get the credit 
even if you deserve it,

319
00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:16,733
and you take the blame even 
if you don't deserve it.

320
00:11:16,733 --> 00:11:19,200
The most successful 
leaders understand

321
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,966
that they've got to 
protect everybody,

322
00:11:20,966 --> 00:11:22,700
but at the same time, they 
have to share the credit,

323
00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:24,033
right? 
[BROWN] That's, yeah.

324
00:11:24,033 --> 00:11:25,266
[SMITH] Share the gold stars.

325
00:11:25,266 --> 00:11:26,133
[BROWN] Share the gold stars.

326
00:11:26,133 --> 00:11:27,533
[SMITH] Let somebody

327
00:11:27,533 --> 00:11:28,466
else be the knower, 
[BROWN] Give the gold stars.

328
00:11:28,466 --> 00:11:29,933
Catch people doing things right.

329
00:11:29,933 --> 00:11:31,333
- You've talked about 
courage a couple of times,

330
00:11:31,333 --> 00:11:34,100
and the whole idea of courageous 
leadership interests me,

331
00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:35,966
because is there non-courageous,

332
00:11:35,966 --> 00:11:37,300
I kind of wonder, 
[BROWN] Yes.

333
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:38,833
- what is the difference between

334
00:11:38,833 --> 00:11:41,033
courageous leadership and 
non-courageous leadership.

335
00:11:41,033 --> 00:11:42,100
[BROWN] I'm so glad you asked,

336
00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:43,533
because-- 
[SMITH] Oh, good, okay.

337
00:11:43,533 --> 00:11:44,900
[BROWN] This-- 
[SMITH] I'll sit here and not be

338
00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:46,100
the knower, how about that? 
[BROWN] Yes, no,

339
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:47,333
I'm obsessed with this. 
(audience laughs)

340
00:11:47,333 --> 00:11:50,400
I'm obsessed with this, 
because I was wrong.

341
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,900
I hypothesized that 
the greatest barrier,

342
00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:55,500
and I'm wrong like 
70% of the times

343
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:56,700
with my hypotheses, (laughs) but

344
00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,833
I really hypothesized 
that the biggest

345
00:11:59,833 --> 00:12:04,066
barrier to daring leadership 
would be fear, right?

346
00:12:04,066 --> 00:12:05,933
That would make, that 
makes sense to me.

347
00:12:05,933 --> 00:12:08,166
Then I went and 
reinterviewed some

348
00:12:08,166 --> 00:12:10,166
of the most courageous 
leaders we had talked to,

349
00:12:10,166 --> 00:12:12,633
and I was like, "How do 
you stay out of fear,"

350
00:12:12,633 --> 00:12:15,533
and they looked at me like, 
"I'm afraid all day long,

351
00:12:15,533 --> 00:12:18,333
"every day," and I'm like, "No, 
but you're a daring leader,"

352
00:12:18,333 --> 00:12:19,266
and they're like, 
"Well, maybe so,

353
00:12:19,266 --> 00:12:20,700
"but I'm afraid all day long."

354
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:24,133
What we realized is that 
it's not fear that gets

355
00:12:24,133 --> 00:12:27,066
in the way of courageous 
leadership, it's armor.

356
00:12:27,066 --> 00:12:28,500
It's not that we're, 
we're all afraid

357
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,033
and brave all day long, 
sometimes in the same moment.

358
00:12:31,033 --> 00:12:34,133
But what gets in the way 
of courageous leadership is

359
00:12:34,133 --> 00:12:38,000
when we're in fear, do 
we keep the armor off,

360
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,866
or do we armor up 
and self-protect

361
00:12:39,866 --> 00:12:42,900
in ways that move us 
away from authenticity,

362
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,000
that move us away from courage?

363
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,333
And so, it's, I 
think the opposite

364
00:12:47,333 --> 00:12:49,966
of courageous leadership 
is armored leadership.

365
00:12:49,966 --> 00:12:53,966
- Yeah, I love this, so, I 
really, I don't wanna move

366
00:12:53,966 --> 00:12:56,533
too far, but I wanna 
move more broadly

367
00:12:56,533 --> 00:13:00,400
to your whole, the 
Brené Brown universe.

368
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,800
The books, the TED 
Talks, the research.

369
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,666
It seems to me that there's 
a narrative through line

370
00:13:05,666 --> 00:13:08,833
that is counterintuitive, 
but is amazing

371
00:13:08,833 --> 00:13:10,966
in its counterintuitiveness, 
and that is

372
00:13:10,966 --> 00:13:13,900
that weakness is strength. 
And this is something

373
00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:15,666
that I feel we've been taught

374
00:13:15,666 --> 00:13:17,166
from the time we were children,

375
00:13:17,166 --> 00:13:19,466
parents tell us to be strong.

376
00:13:19,466 --> 00:13:22,600
When we're in school, 
teachers tell us to be strong.

377
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,600
When we go out into 
the world of work,

378
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,866
strength is an asset, 
not a liability.

379
00:13:26,866 --> 00:13:29,766
Politicians talk all the time 
about the need for strength.

380
00:13:29,766 --> 00:13:32,633
We have a President 
of the United States

381
00:13:32,633 --> 00:13:36,666
who is all about 
articulating strength,

382
00:13:36,666 --> 00:13:38,866
if not actual strength, right?

383
00:13:38,866 --> 00:13:40,066
Weakness is a liability.

384
00:13:40,066 --> 00:13:42,533
At the advertising 
world, there's

385
00:13:42,533 --> 00:13:43,800
actually a deodorant commercial

386
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,200
whose tagline is "Never 
let 'em see you sweat."

387
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,000
What is that if not

388
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,700
a rebuke of the idea that 
weakness is a positive?

389
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:57,033
I'm just so fascinated 
by this idea,

390
00:13:57,033 --> 00:13:59,466
because we're 
conditioned, all of us,

391
00:13:59,466 --> 00:14:02,233
to think that 
weakness is weakness,

392
00:14:02,233 --> 00:14:05,066
not weakness is strength, but 
you've turned it upside down.

393
00:14:07,033 --> 00:14:09,300
- I think, for me, 
the way I would frame

394
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:14,266
what you just said is that 
we're all taught to be brave,

395
00:14:14,266 --> 00:14:17,800
and then warned to 
not be vulnerable.

396
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,733
And I think that doesn't exist.

397
00:14:20,733 --> 00:14:21,833
[SMITH] As if those 
are different things.

398
00:14:21,833 --> 00:14:23,066
[BROWN] As if they're mutually

399
00:14:23,066 --> 00:14:24,266
exclusive. 
[SMITH] Right, they T-bone,

400
00:14:24,266 --> 00:14:25,700
yeah, right. 
[BROWN] Yeah, they T-bone, yeah.

401
00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:29,333
And I just cannot, in 
400,000 pieces of data, find

402
00:14:29,333 --> 00:14:34,066
a single example of 
a courageous person,

403
00:14:34,066 --> 00:14:36,466
or a courageous act that 
didn't require vulnerability.

404
00:14:36,466 --> 00:14:38,766
When we ask people, 
"What is vulnerability?"

405
00:14:38,766 --> 00:14:40,633
'cause the mythology, right, 
is that it's weakness,

406
00:14:40,633 --> 00:14:41,900
right-- 
[SMITH] Yeah, right.

407
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:43,100
[BROWN] and so, 
when you ask people,

408
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:44,433
"What is vulnerability?"

409
00:14:44,433 --> 00:14:46,200
"The first date 
after my divorce."

410
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,000
"Trying to get pregnant 
after my second miscarriage."

411
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,633
"Sitting with my wife, 
who has stage-four

412
00:14:50,633 --> 00:14:53,566
"breast cancer, trying to 
make plans for our toddlers."

413
00:14:53,566 --> 00:14:55,433
"Starting my own business."

414
00:14:55,433 --> 00:14:57,166
"Losing my business."

415
00:14:57,166 --> 00:14:58,666
"Getting fired."

416
00:14:58,666 --> 00:15:01,033
"Having to fire someone."

417
00:15:01,033 --> 00:15:04,200
One of my favorites, 
"Being in a relationship

418
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,533
"and saying, 'I 
love you,' first."

419
00:15:06,533 --> 00:15:09,366
Those are scary, 
they're terrifying,

420
00:15:09,366 --> 00:15:11,033
they're uncomfortable, 
they're uncertain,

421
00:15:11,033 --> 00:15:14,500
but by no one's measure 
are those weakness.

422
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:17,333
And so, we have to

423
00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:20,266
push back and dispel this idea

424
00:15:20,266 --> 00:15:22,833
that vulnerability is weakness.

425
00:15:22,833 --> 00:15:25,466
I could challenge the 
audience sitting here,

426
00:15:25,466 --> 00:15:26,900
people watching,

427
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:30,600
Give me an example of 
courage. One, from anybody.

428
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,133
Give me an example of courage

429
00:15:33,133 --> 00:15:35,000
that does not require 
uncertainty, risk--

430
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:35,833
[SMITH] Is not accompanied by

431
00:15:35,833 --> 00:15:37,266
risk and fear, right.

432
00:15:37,266 --> 00:15:40,766
[BROWN] You can't, and 
that was, if special forces

433
00:15:40,766 --> 00:15:42,833
over the last five years 
can't give me an example,

434
00:15:42,833 --> 00:15:45,366
if I'm working with fighter 
pilots that can't give

435
00:15:45,366 --> 00:15:47,733
me an example, the Seattle 
Seahawks can't give

436
00:15:47,733 --> 00:15:49,933
me an example, people 
who are really,

437
00:15:49,933 --> 00:15:53,033
firefighters, police officers,

438
00:15:53,033 --> 00:15:55,766
there's no courage 
without vulnerability.

439
00:15:55,766 --> 00:15:58,233
[SMITH] Right, but you, I 
hear you, and I embrace this,

440
00:15:58,233 --> 00:16:00,633
I think this is a great 
thought about the world,

441
00:16:00,633 --> 00:16:02,633
but I'm also back to confronting

442
00:16:02,633 --> 00:16:04,500
the reality that we are 
conditioned to believe

443
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:07,966
that if we are not 
strong, we're weak.

444
00:16:07,966 --> 00:16:11,766
And that if we show any 
sign, a crack of light,

445
00:16:11,766 --> 00:16:13,433
and again, I come 
back to politics.

446
00:16:13,433 --> 00:16:15,266
I think about the 
political environment.

447
00:16:15,266 --> 00:16:16,700
We've just come through 
an election season,

448
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:18,166
in which we hear 
about the importance

449
00:16:18,166 --> 00:16:20,800
of the strength of our country, 
the strength of our leaders,

450
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,766
the strength of our communities.

451
00:16:22,766 --> 00:16:24,666
We don't say, "America is great

452
00:16:24,666 --> 00:16:26,266
"because America is vulnerable."

453
00:16:26,266 --> 00:16:27,766
we never hear that 
at election time,

454
00:16:27,766 --> 00:16:32,666
or that America is entitled to 
be fearful about the future.

455
00:16:32,666 --> 00:16:34,733
It's just that it's 
this, I just think

456
00:16:34,733 --> 00:16:37,500
of it as almost a 
psychological version

457
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:40,000
of toxic masculinity, right? 
[BROWN] Yeah, yeah, I think

458
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,400
that's right, and 
here's the thing

459
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,166
that I've also learned 
in the research:

460
00:16:44,166 --> 00:16:46,333
Uncertainty is 
hard for all of us.

461
00:16:46,333 --> 00:16:48,000
I'm a terrible person.

462
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,433
Uncertainty is 
dangerous. But one of

463
00:16:51,433 --> 00:16:54,900
the surest ways to gain power is

464
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:58,933
if you take people who 
are in uncertainty,

465
00:16:58,933 --> 00:17:02,333
and you sell them 
certainty and give them

466
00:17:02,333 --> 00:17:04,466
an enemy to blame 
for their pain.

467
00:17:04,466 --> 00:17:05,966
- Yep.

468
00:17:05,966 --> 00:17:08,633
[BROWN] You can get away with 
just almost about anything.

469
00:17:08,633 --> 00:17:11,233
You just completely 
villainize that.

470
00:17:11,233 --> 00:17:16,166
And so, it's really hard 
to talk about sometimes,

471
00:17:16,166 --> 00:17:18,133
because I started my 
research six months

472
00:17:18,133 --> 00:17:22,133
before 9/11, 
coincidentally, and I'm

473
00:17:22,133 --> 00:17:23,466
a qualitative 
researcher, so I do

474
00:17:23,466 --> 00:17:25,800
most of my data 
gathering in interviews

475
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,566
or focus groups or 
meeting with large groups

476
00:17:27,566 --> 00:17:30,033
of people, looking 
into people's eyes,

477
00:17:30,033 --> 00:17:33,200
and fear has changed who we are.

478
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,000
I have watched it happen.

479
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,200
[SMITH] Right.

480
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,200
Well, one of the ways, 
I'm just thinking,

481
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,900
as fresh as the headlines 
that we've been watching

482
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:44,800
unfold over the last 
couple of weeks,

483
00:17:46,066 --> 00:17:50,233
fear often causes us 
to demonize the other.

484
00:17:50,233 --> 00:17:51,466
[BROWN] For sure.

485
00:17:51,466 --> 00:17:52,733
[Smith] Right, so 
we heard a lot about

486
00:17:52,733 --> 00:17:54,866
this caravan, notice 
after Election Day,

487
00:17:54,866 --> 00:17:56,033
we haven't heard a word about

488
00:17:56,033 --> 00:17:57,500
the caravan, right? 
[BROWN] Yeah.

489
00:17:57,500 --> 00:17:59,266
- But leading up to Election 
Day, all it was was the

490
00:17:59,266 --> 00:18:01,666
caravan, the caravan, 
is an invasion coming?

491
00:18:01,666 --> 00:18:04,900
If you breadcrumb that 
back to its origins,

492
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:07,733
basically, it's about 
fear of the other,

493
00:18:07,733 --> 00:18:09,200
right? 
[BROWN] For sure.

494
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,133
[SMITH] So I'm really 
interested in what kind of

495
00:18:11,133 --> 00:18:13,366
behavior that fear causes in us

496
00:18:13,366 --> 00:18:15,333
when it's villainized, right?

497
00:18:15,333 --> 00:18:17,033
It separates us from people as

498
00:18:17,033 --> 00:18:18,200
opposed to brings us together.

499
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,833
- It does, and here's 
the thing about,

500
00:18:19,833 --> 00:18:22,733
and not just about other people,

501
00:18:22,733 --> 00:18:25,766
but myself included, we are much

502
00:18:25,766 --> 00:18:29,800
better at causing pain 
than feeling our own pain.

503
00:18:30,966 --> 00:18:32,933
We are much better 
at taking what's

504
00:18:32,933 --> 00:18:36,633
hard and raw and rage 
and if you give us

505
00:18:36,633 --> 00:18:38,500
someone to hate, and you give us

506
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:40,200
a narrative about why 
they're dangerous,

507
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,733
and if you give us a narrative

508
00:18:41,733 --> 00:18:44,600
about why they are to 
blame for our pain,

509
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,866
for our addicted children, 
for our loss of our jobs,

510
00:18:47,866 --> 00:18:49,733
[SMITH] It's easy to take that. 
[BROWN] It's, yeah,

511
00:18:49,733 --> 00:18:54,733
come on, give me something 
to do with this stuff

512
00:18:54,733 --> 00:18:57,633
that is killing me 
to feel every day.

513
00:18:57,633 --> 00:18:59,700
[SMITH] Yeah, and the knowledge 
that we can do that is

514
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,933
comforting to some people 
who don't have other answers

515
00:19:01,933 --> 00:19:03,600
for our problems, right? 
[BROWN] Yes, yeah.

516
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,700
But how many of us would 
love a leader that says,

517
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:08,400
"You know what, these 
are uncertain times,

518
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,433
"and we need to dig in together,

519
00:19:10,433 --> 00:19:11,600
"and we need to be 
curious together."

520
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,533
- Right.

521
00:19:12,533 --> 00:19:13,600
Well, so let me go to that.

522
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,100
That's interesting.

523
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:18,133
So, you say, "It's easier to 
feel someone else, or to--

524
00:19:18,133 --> 00:19:19,566
[BROWN] "It's 
easier to cause pain

525
00:19:19,566 --> 00:19:20,933
than to feel our own pain. 
[SMITH] "Cause pain than to feel

526
00:19:20,933 --> 00:19:22,200
"our own pain."

527
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,733
How easy is it to feel 
somebody else's pain?

528
00:19:24,733 --> 00:19:27,600
Your focus on empathy over 
time is really interesting

529
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,800
to me, because again, I think

530
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,033
about everything through 
a political context,

531
00:19:31,033 --> 00:19:34,566
and what we see in 
the political universe

532
00:19:34,566 --> 00:19:37,133
and in the universe 
period right now is

533
00:19:37,133 --> 00:19:39,033
something, in my mind, 
of an empathy deficit.

534
00:19:39,033 --> 00:19:39,866
[BROWN] Huge.

535
00:19:39,866 --> 00:19:41,066
[SMITH] Huge.

536
00:19:41,066 --> 00:19:43,300
We don't empathize 
with the predicaments

537
00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:46,000
or plights of other people, 
and when a figure comes along

538
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,933
who seems genuinely 
empathetic, it is notable,

539
00:19:49,933 --> 00:19:53,233
and here I'm going to 
turn to our fellow Texan.

540
00:19:53,233 --> 00:19:55,333
Your fellow Texan and mine, a

541
00:19:55,333 --> 00:19:57,333
congressman named Beto O'Rourke,

542
00:19:57,333 --> 00:19:59,966
who captured the attention 
of the entire country,

543
00:19:59,966 --> 00:20:01,566
not just the state 
in which he ran,

544
00:20:01,566 --> 00:20:03,966
as it turned out, unsuccessfully

545
00:20:03,966 --> 00:20:05,666
for the United States 
Senate, but transcended

546
00:20:05,666 --> 00:20:08,133
his own race to become 
a national figure,

547
00:20:08,133 --> 00:20:11,166
in large measure, because he 
seemed, unlike so many people

548
00:20:11,166 --> 00:20:14,300
in that situation, 
genuinely empathetic.

549
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:15,766
How many times did you see him

550
00:20:15,766 --> 00:20:18,133
with his arm draped around 
somebody at a campaign rally?

551
00:20:18,133 --> 00:20:19,466
It never seemed cynical.

552
00:20:19,466 --> 00:20:20,933
It always seemed authentic.

553
00:20:20,933 --> 00:20:23,933
He spoke in ways that 
seemed genuinely empathetic,

554
00:20:23,933 --> 00:20:27,600
and this was notable 
because of its absence

555
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,766
in the political world 
and in the world now.

556
00:20:30,766 --> 00:20:33,533
Why is it so hard 
to be empathetic?

557
00:20:33,533 --> 00:20:34,733
Why?

558
00:20:34,733 --> 00:20:36,733
What about human nature 
makes it so hard?

559
00:20:36,733 --> 00:20:39,400
- Well, I'll go back and say 
this, as, full disclosure,

560
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,300
someone who supported Beto...

561
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:44,966
[SMITH] Not illegal 
yet to say that.

562
00:20:44,966 --> 00:20:46,533
[BROWN] Yes, yes.

563
00:20:46,533 --> 00:20:50,466
Oh, yes, but I did.

564
00:20:50,466 --> 00:20:53,366
He was not, he did 
not win the election,

565
00:20:53,366 --> 00:20:56,066
but I'm not sure that 
he wasn't successful.

566
00:20:56,066 --> 00:20:57,366
I'm not sure that

567
00:20:57,366 --> 00:20:58,666
he didn't, yeah--

568
00:20:58,666 --> 00:21:03,100
(audience applauds)

569
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:06,766
I think he showed us 
what was possible, and--

570
00:21:06,766 --> 00:21:08,200
[SMITH] And it seems, 
by the way, completely

571
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,966
in keeping with your 
whole rap about fear,

572
00:21:10,966 --> 00:21:15,400
vulnerability, empathy, right? 
[BROWN] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

573
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,133
- I think we have some 
work in our country

574
00:21:17,133 --> 00:21:19,533
to do, obviously, 
about acknowledging

575
00:21:19,533 --> 00:21:21,800
the pain and fear that 
a lot of people are in.

576
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,800
I think, if anything 
good has come from

577
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,933
what we have seen, I'm 
just gonna just lay it

578
00:21:26,933 --> 00:21:28,966
on out there, because 
(audience laughs)

579
00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:31,333
I feel like Townes Van 
Zandt has been in this room,

580
00:21:31,333 --> 00:21:35,266
so I feel called to do that. 
(audience laughs)

581
00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:36,400
[SMITH] You go.

582
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,300
[BROWN] Yeah.

583
00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,233
I feel like I'm not 
someone who looks

584
00:21:41,233 --> 00:21:43,166
for the silver lining 
in really hard things,

585
00:21:43,166 --> 00:21:45,533
because sometimes, 
just bad stuff happens,

586
00:21:45,533 --> 00:21:48,133
and you can grow from it 
and be grateful later.

587
00:21:48,133 --> 00:21:52,433
But I have to say, if anything,

588
00:21:52,433 --> 00:21:54,600
if any learning has been worth

589
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,700
some of the pain, 
it is the learning

590
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,933
of the white moderate 
who has convinced

591
00:22:01,933 --> 00:22:06,066
themselves that the 
racism, the sexism,

592
00:22:06,066 --> 00:22:11,033
the things that we are seeing 
in full sight now were gone.

593
00:22:12,466 --> 00:22:16,200
That I think people of color 
knew that they were there.

594
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,366
I think for a lot of 
us, like for me, I'm 52.

595
00:22:19,366 --> 00:22:20,633
I thought sexual harassment was

596
00:22:20,633 --> 00:22:23,400
the price of admission to work.

597
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,966
And so, I think, if anything,

598
00:22:26,966 --> 00:22:29,533
Jungian therapist, 
Pittman McGehee is

599
00:22:29,533 --> 00:22:31,133
this Jungian therapist and used

600
00:22:31,133 --> 00:22:32,666
to be at our church in 
Houston, and he says

601
00:22:32,666 --> 00:22:36,200
that from the Jungian tradition,

602
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,200
every great progression 
will require

603
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,933
a massive regression 
before it happens.

604
00:22:41,933 --> 00:22:43,166
(audience oohs)

605
00:22:43,166 --> 00:22:46,600
And so, I hold onto 
that, I believe that.

606
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,433
[SMITH] You think this is 
the massive regression?

607
00:22:48,433 --> 00:22:49,400
(audience laughs)

608
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,233
[BROWN] I do.

609
00:22:50,233 --> 00:22:52,000
(audience applauds)

610
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,766
Not this interview! 
[SMITH] Yeah, no--

611
00:22:53,766 --> 00:22:55,000
[BROWN] Not y'all! 
[SMITH] --yeah, yeah,

612
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,400
I didn't think it 
was going that badly,

613
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,800
but, yeah, yeah. 
[BROWN] Yeah, no, no.

614
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,600
[SMITH] But of course, 
I wonder though,

615
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,933
we'd like it to be the 
massive regression,

616
00:23:01,933 --> 00:23:04,033
because we know that 
the progression is 
around the corner,

617
00:23:04,033 --> 00:23:05,933
but how do you know that it's 
not one of those situations

618
00:23:05,933 --> 00:23:07,200
where you go down 
into the basement

619
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,800
only to discover there's 
another basement?

620
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,533
(audience laughs)

621
00:23:10,533 --> 00:23:11,833
Right?

622
00:23:11,833 --> 00:23:13,166
[BROWN] I choose hope.

623
00:23:13,166 --> 00:23:14,600
I choose to believe. 
[SMITH] I feel like in the world

624
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,833
these days, I always 
think I've hit the floor,

625
00:23:15,833 --> 00:23:17,066
and then I go, "Oop, 
nope, it turns out

626
00:23:17,066 --> 00:23:18,300
"there's another 
floor down there."

627
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,233
[BROWN] That's easy to 
do today, especially

628
00:23:20,233 --> 00:23:22,033
because I know you keep track 
of your politics, (laughs)

629
00:23:22,033 --> 00:23:23,966
so it's like there's 
basement upon basement,

630
00:23:23,966 --> 00:23:26,766
but I do believe, 
if you talk going

631
00:23:26,766 --> 00:23:29,700
back to Beto 
O'Rourke, I do believe

632
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:31,700
he showed us what was possible,

633
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:35,266
And I believe that his empathy

634
00:23:35,266 --> 00:23:37,700
and his vulnerability 
in some ways,

635
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,800
I perceived as massive strength.

636
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,133
And I just remember seeing 
a picture of him cooking

637
00:23:45,133 --> 00:23:46,733
breakfast in the 
morning in his house,

638
00:23:46,733 --> 00:23:48,000
and he had-- 
[SMITH] Was he sweaty?

639
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,200
(audience laughs) 
[BROWN] And he had a

640
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,266
Metallica shirt 
on, and I was like,

641
00:23:51,266 --> 00:23:54,700
"That's a scene in my house 
when my husband's cooking

642
00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:56,366
"chorizo and eggs"-- 
[SMITH] Very relatable.

643
00:23:56,366 --> 00:23:57,933
[BROWN] Yeah, totally relatable.

644
00:23:57,933 --> 00:23:59,466
And I thought, but 
here's the thing.

645
00:23:59,466 --> 00:24:01,066
You know what?

646
00:24:02,066 --> 00:24:05,133
A lot of us, sometimes you say,

647
00:24:05,133 --> 00:24:07,333
"You get the leaders 
you deserve."

648
00:24:07,333 --> 00:24:12,233
A lot of us don't want the 
relatable guy in the T-shirt.

649
00:24:12,233 --> 00:24:14,533
They want Oz.

650
00:24:14,533 --> 00:24:15,766
They want Oz.

651
00:24:15,766 --> 00:24:17,166
They want the man 
behind the curtain.

652
00:24:17,166 --> 00:24:18,533
They don't want the 
person, "I don't want

653
00:24:18,533 --> 00:24:19,833
"the person that 
looks like my husband.

654
00:24:19,833 --> 00:24:21,466
"I don't want my 
husband running things,"

655
00:24:21,466 --> 00:24:23,800
or, "I don't want, 
what do you mean, me?

656
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,466
"Uh-uh, no, it can't be me.

657
00:24:25,466 --> 00:24:30,433
"I need that father figure 
thing or something."

658
00:24:30,433 --> 00:24:34,700
Where I don't, I'm like, 
"Give us the reins.

659
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,933
"It's time," but 
you gotta remember,

660
00:24:38,933 --> 00:24:40,933
there are people

661
00:24:40,933 --> 00:24:45,100
who don't want the people 
who lead this country

662
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:49,933
to look like us, because 
they don't trust themselves,

663
00:24:49,933 --> 00:24:51,033
and they don't trust 
people who are--

664
00:24:51,033 --> 00:24:52,233
[SMITH] So they have a lack,

665
00:24:52,233 --> 00:24:53,900
so it gets, really, 
back to, it's a classic

666
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,833
Brené Brown, they don't have 
confidence in themselves,

667
00:24:56,833 --> 00:24:58,066
and so they assume 
that if someone looks

668
00:24:58,066 --> 00:25:00,166
like them, that they 
can't have confidence

669
00:25:00,166 --> 00:25:01,966
and wouldn't have 
confidence in that person.

670
00:25:01,966 --> 00:25:03,466
[BROWN] I think sometimes, yeah.

671
00:25:03,466 --> 00:25:04,700
I think that sometimes

672
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:05,933
that's the case. 
[SMITH] We elevate

673
00:25:05,933 --> 00:25:07,200
the ideal in all ways, 
in all situations--

674
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,033
[BROWN] And then, yes, 
and I have to add this,

675
00:25:09,033 --> 00:25:12,333
and there's also 
just systemic racism,

676
00:25:12,333 --> 00:25:14,700
classism, and sexism at work.

677
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:15,933
[SMITH] Right.

678
00:25:15,933 --> 00:25:17,000
Well, I'm afraid 
we're out of time,

679
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,200
and that's an enormously

680
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,433
upbeat place to end-- 
[BROWN] Oh my God!

681
00:25:19,433 --> 00:25:20,666
[SMITH] --isn't it? 
(audience laughs)

682
00:25:20,666 --> 00:25:22,000
[BROWN] Let's end 
on love or something

683
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,833
good. [SMITH] (laughs) 
Yeah, good, okay.

684
00:25:23,833 --> 00:25:25,466
Well you made the heart 
sign with your hands.

685
00:25:25,466 --> 00:25:27,433
That's actually good. 
(audience laughs)

686
00:25:27,433 --> 00:25:32,366
I appreciate your sincerity 
and your hard work

687
00:25:32,366 --> 00:25:36,966
and your vision, and your 
success is earned and deserved,

688
00:25:36,966 --> 00:25:38,133
[BROWN] Thanks.

689
00:25:38,133 --> 00:25:39,366
[SMITH] And it's 
really just a delight

690
00:25:39,366 --> 00:25:41,566
to get to hear from you 
just in a short time,

691
00:25:41,566 --> 00:25:43,766
but I look forward to 
continuing to see what you do.

692
00:25:43,766 --> 00:25:45,266
[BROWN] Thank you.

693
00:25:45,266 --> 00:25:46,433
[SMITH] Thank you for giving 
us all so much to think about.

694
00:25:46,433 --> 00:25:47,866
[BROWN] Thank you.

695
00:25:47,866 --> 00:25:52,266
[SMITH] Dr. Brené Brown. 
(audience applauds and cheers)

696
00:25:53,733 --> 00:25:54,966
[SMITH] We'd love to have 
you join us in the studio.

697
00:25:54,966 --> 00:25:58,666
Visit our website at 
klru.org/overheard

698
00:25:58,666 --> 00:26:00,500
to find invitations 
to interviews,

699
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,233
Q and As with our 
audience and guests,

700
00:26:03,233 --> 00:26:06,100
and an archive of past episodes.

701
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:11,066
[BROWN] I'm a huge believer, 
myself a consumer of, therapy.

702
00:26:11,066 --> 00:26:12,766
When you're setting boundaries,

703
00:26:12,766 --> 00:26:14,266
[AUDIENCE MEMBER] Yeah, me too.

704
00:26:14,266 --> 00:26:16,533
- in your family of origin, 
having a helping professional,

705
00:26:16,533 --> 00:26:18,866
a therapist, a social 
worker, a counselor,

706
00:26:18,866 --> 00:26:20,833
who, sometimes I would 
just go in and be like,

707
00:26:20,833 --> 00:26:22,166
"I just wanna role play 
with you for 30 minutes,

708
00:26:22,166 --> 00:26:24,333
"and then I'm gonna cuss 
for 20, and I'll write

709
00:26:24,333 --> 00:26:25,600
you a check." 
(audience laughs)

710
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,100
[NARRATOR] Funding 
for Overheard with

711
00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:29,866
Evan Smith is 
provided in part by

712
00:26:29,866 --> 00:26:32,866
HillCo Partners, a 
Texas government affairs

713
00:26:32,866 --> 00:26:37,433
consultancy; the Alice 
Kleberg Reynolds Foundation;

714
00:26:37,433 --> 00:26:41,300
Claire and Carl 
Stuart; and by Entergy.

715
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:45,033
(relaxing music)