WEBVTT 00:01.166 --> 00:02.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [FEMALE NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard 00:02.700 --> 00:05.933 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% with Evan Smith is provided in part by HillCo Partners, 00:05.933 --> 00:08.766 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% a Texas government affairs consultancy; 00:08.766 --> 00:11.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation; 00:11.400 --> 00:15.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart; and by Entergy. 00:16.633 --> 00:17.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [EVAN SMITH] I'm Evan Smith. She's a best-selling 00:17.866 --> 00:19.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% author and academic whose research 00:19.966 --> 00:22.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% on vulnerability, courage, shame, 00:22.333 --> 00:25.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and empathy has won her international acclaim. 00:25.833 --> 00:28.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Her latest book is "Dare to Lead: Brave Work. 00:28.733 --> 00:31.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts." 00:31.100 --> 00:32.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% She's Dr. Brené Brown. 00:32.300 --> 00:33.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:33.866 --> 00:36.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% (audience applauds and cheers) (playful music) 00:36.100 --> 00:37.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Let's be honest, is this about 00:37.333 --> 00:39.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the ability to be learn or is this about 00:39.166 --> 00:41.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the experience of not having been taught properly, 00:41.433 --> 00:43.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and how have you avoided what has befallen 00:43.333 --> 00:44.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% other nations in Africa, and 00:44.566 --> 00:47.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you could say that he'd made his own bed, 00:47.000 --> 00:48.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:48.500 --> 00:51.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You saw a problem, and over time, took it on, 00:51.266 --> 00:52.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and let's start with (audience laughs) 00:52.766 --> 00:54.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% the sizzle before we get 00:54.100 --> 00:55.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to the steak. (audience applauds) 00:55.066 --> 00:56.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 00:56.300 --> 00:57.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think I just got an F from you, 00:57.566 --> 00:58.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% actually. (audience laughs) 00:58.800 --> 00:59.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% This is Overheard. 00:59.833 --> 01:03.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% (audience applauds and cheers) 01:04.933 --> 01:06.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Dr. Brené Brown, welcome. 01:06.300 --> 01:07.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BRENÉ BROWN] I'm excited to be here. 01:07.600 --> 01:08.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It's very nice to meet you. 01:08.533 --> 01:09.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Congratulations on all your 01:09.733 --> 01:10.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% success. [BROWN] Thank you. 01:10.966 --> 01:12.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] This book is a phenomenon. 01:12.400 --> 01:15.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's only been in the bookstores for five minutes. 01:15.133 --> 01:16.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It feels like it's already a huge success. 01:16.666 --> 01:17.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Thank you. 01:17.900 --> 01:19.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] I guess you've come to expect that, 01:19.100 --> 01:20.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or maybe you don't want to expect it, right? 01:20.900 --> 01:22.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] I'm always nervous. 01:22.800 --> 01:23.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Of course. It's on brand... 01:23.733 --> 01:25.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] Really, really nervous. 01:25.266 --> 01:26.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] It's on brand for you to be nervous, right? 01:26.600 --> 01:27.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] (laughs) Thank God! 01:27.566 --> 01:28.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 01:28.800 --> 01:30.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] To question-- [BROWN] That's good. 01:30.300 --> 01:31.733 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% [SMITH] Right, so this is a book about leadership. 01:31.733 --> 01:33.266 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% Of course, all your books are about something, 01:33.266 --> 01:34.200 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% but they're really about many things, but to the degree that 01:34.200 --> 01:35.633 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% this book is about leadership, 01:35.633 --> 01:38.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm so fascinated with your process, first. 01:38.633 --> 01:41.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You are a researcher, first and foremost. 01:41.133 --> 01:42.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] I am. [SMITH] Whatever else you do, 01:42.333 --> 01:44.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you are a researcher in your heart, 01:44.033 --> 01:46.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and in your work, principally. 01:46.166 --> 01:48.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This was a seven-year effort, this book? 01:48.233 --> 01:49.466 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [BROWN] It was. 01:49.466 --> 01:51.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Talk about that, and you interviewed, 01:51.066 --> 01:54.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or had interviewed, 150 different people 01:54.666 --> 01:57.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in corporate executive positions, 01:57.133 --> 02:00.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% what we call C-level executives to understand leadership. 02:00.566 --> 02:01.800 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Talk about that. 02:01.800 --> 02:03.500 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% [BROWN] So, it's a culmination of a lot 02:03.500 --> 02:04.833 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% of different pieces of data, actually. 02:04.833 --> 02:06.800 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% So, there were interviews with leaders, 02:06.800 --> 02:09.733 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% kind of global leaders across the world, representing 02:09.733 --> 02:11.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% a lot of different industries. 02:11.500 --> 02:14.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Also, evaluation data from programs 02:14.533 --> 02:16.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that we have run on courage building, 02:16.733 --> 02:19.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and last but not least, a three-year effort 02:19.866 --> 02:23.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to build a reliable and valid instrument 02:23.700 --> 02:25.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to measure courageous leadership 02:25.700 --> 02:29.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that we did at Wharton, at UPenn, Kellogg, 02:29.766 --> 02:33.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% at Northwestern, and the Jones School of Business at Rice. 02:33.033 --> 02:35.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Amazing, so just a multilayered project. 02:35.233 --> 02:36.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Multilayered. 02:36.466 --> 02:38.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Very ambitious, as everything you do. 02:38.033 --> 02:40.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What was the question you were trying to answer, 02:40.200 --> 02:43.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or what was the problem you were trying to solve? 02:43.133 --> 02:45.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] I really wanted to know, given the increased 02:45.200 --> 02:47.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% complexity of work and everything 02:47.733 --> 02:51.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that's changing, technology, this insatiable drive 02:51.066 --> 02:54.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for innovation, globalization, "What is 02:54.766 --> 02:57.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "the future of leadership going to look like?" 02:57.200 --> 03:00.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% My first question was really, it was pretty raw, it was, 03:00.933 --> 03:02.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Who's gonna be standing in five years leading, 03:02.733 --> 03:05.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "and who's not going to be leading anymore?" 03:05.066 --> 03:07.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so, that was what I wanted to know, 03:07.033 --> 03:08.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "What is the future of leadership? 03:08.300 --> 03:10.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "What are the skills that we're looking for?" 03:10.666 --> 03:11.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 03:11.866 --> 03:13.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The facile way to think about leadership is 03:13.100 --> 03:16.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a good leader is somebody who succeeds, 03:16.233 --> 03:19.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the road to the destination may be different, 03:19.766 --> 03:22.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but the destination ultimately is some kind 03:22.066 --> 03:24.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% of metric, some kind of success. 03:24.366 --> 03:28.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This book, to me, seems to, not necessarily regard 03:28.433 --> 03:32.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% success as as important as the way you got there, 03:32.166 --> 03:34.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or maybe not the definition of success 03:34.600 --> 03:35.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that we're all used to, because I was 03:35.800 --> 03:38.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so interested in the kinds of leaders 03:38.300 --> 03:41.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who succeed, rather than what they ultimately do. 03:41.033 --> 03:44.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Now, I assume you believe the best leaders are gonna produce 03:44.433 --> 03:46.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% success, and so we oughta be focusing 03:46.100 --> 03:48.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% on the inputs rather than the outputs. 03:48.366 --> 03:49.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That's how I interpreted this. 03:49.900 --> 03:52.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] I think it's about the definition of success. 03:52.666 --> 03:53.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I think you're right. 03:53.966 --> 03:56.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think it's about, and for the first time ever, 03:56.933 --> 03:59.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we're seeing studies where the definition 03:59.766 --> 04:03.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of success is shifting for the first time in 60, 70 years. 04:03.500 --> 04:05.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Talk about that. 04:05.000 --> 04:06.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] Well, people are saying, instead of talking 04:06.400 --> 04:09.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% about titles, money, 04:09.033 --> 04:11.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% offices, they're talking about 04:11.866 --> 04:14.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% family, community, relationships, 04:14.366 --> 04:19.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% connection, contributing, making the world a better place, 04:19.300 --> 04:21.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and people talked about that a lot, 04:21.466 --> 04:23.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but never really talked about that 04:23.166 --> 04:25.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in terms of success, so I think-- 04:25.133 --> 04:26.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] It's not all financial metrics. 04:26.500 --> 04:27.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] It's not all financial. 04:27.900 --> 04:29.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] It's not all shareholder returns, right? 04:29.133 --> 04:30.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] It's not all financial metrics. 04:30.066 --> 04:32.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and it's not all ego metrics, 04:32.333 --> 04:35.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Right, ego metrics. 04:35.033 --> 04:36.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Well, so, this point you made 04:36.366 --> 04:38.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about it's not all title and it's not all status, 04:38.500 --> 04:41.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that was one of the big takeaways from this book. 04:41.366 --> 04:44.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That leadership is not about, or only about, 04:44.366 --> 04:47.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% title, status, acquiring power, because that makes 04:47.733 --> 04:50.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% leadership about me, when really, if you lead an 04:50.166 --> 04:52.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% organization, leadership is about them. 04:52.633 --> 04:54.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's about collaboration, it's about enabling 04:54.366 --> 04:56.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and unlocking the potential of the people who 04:56.033 --> 04:59.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you work with. And that really does cut 04:59.500 --> 05:01.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% against the grain of our traditional sense 05:01.566 --> 05:04.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the fancy and powerful executive 05:04.466 --> 05:07.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in a glass office with people waiting 05:07.766 --> 05:11.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% on him, mostly it's been him over time, hand and foot. 05:11.566 --> 05:14.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You've really turned the conversation around 05:14.400 --> 05:16.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about what leadership should be about, 05:16.633 --> 05:18.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% even if it isn't always about that. 05:18.233 --> 05:20.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I think it's about, people have been writing 05:20.233 --> 05:21.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about servant leadership for a long time, 05:21.933 --> 05:23.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I think this is about servant leadership. 05:23.800 --> 05:25.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I also think, we define a leader, based 05:25.933 --> 05:29.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% on our research, as anyone who holds 05:29.066 --> 05:32.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% themselves responsible for finding the potential 05:32.366 --> 05:36.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in people and processes and has the courage 05:36.166 --> 05:38.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to develop that potential. And I have been 05:38.166 --> 05:40.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in C-Suites, those top-corner offices. 05:40.933 --> 05:43.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I couldn't find a leader to save my life. 05:43.133 --> 05:44.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I was lookin' under desks. 05:44.800 --> 05:46.833 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% [SMITH] Based on that definition. [BROWN] Yeah, yeah, right. 05:46.833 --> 05:49.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I've been on warehouse and shop floors 05:49.100 --> 05:51.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% where I was surrounded by people who were leaders, 05:51.766 --> 05:53.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who looked at problems and people and thought, 05:53.666 --> 05:56.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "There's potential here, and I'm gonna take 05:56.366 --> 05:58.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "responsibility for developing it." 05:58.366 --> 06:00.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, is that approach to leadership, 06:00.433 --> 06:05.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that selflessness, making it about them not us or you, is 06:05.233 --> 06:07.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that something that's learned behavior, or is that innate? 06:07.866 --> 06:09.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Is that something that we're coded 06:09.533 --> 06:11.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that way, or wired that way? 06:11.233 --> 06:12.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - I think, we call it courageous 06:12.500 --> 06:14.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% leadership, and I think it's a skillset. 06:14.933 --> 06:17.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think we have to, I think there's some 06:17.600 --> 06:20.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% genuine feelings of compassion 06:20.166 --> 06:21.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for people that a lot of people have, 06:21.466 --> 06:23.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and some people have shortages of, clearly, 06:23.300 --> 06:24.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 06:24.933 --> 06:26.100 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% but-- 06:26.100 --> 06:27.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Can you correct that, though? 06:27.033 --> 06:27.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That's my question, I guess. 06:27.966 --> 06:28.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Can you correct for that? 06:28.800 --> 06:29.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Can you pivot? 06:29.966 --> 06:31.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% At a point in your career where you realize 06:31.633 --> 06:33.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you're making it too much about yourself, can 06:33.800 --> 06:35.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you successfully pivot to be the 06:35.666 --> 06:37.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% kind of person you're talking about? 06:37.300 --> 06:38.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] With self-awareness, yes. 06:38.500 --> 06:40.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I think there's hope for us all. 06:40.100 --> 06:43.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I believe in the absolute inherent goodness 06:43.466 --> 06:44.766 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% of people, and I think people are 06:44.766 --> 06:47.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% really scary when they're in fear. 06:47.933 --> 06:50.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] People are scary when they're in fear. 06:50.066 --> 06:51.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They behave in ways that are scary. 06:51.100 --> 06:52.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Yes, yes, 06:52.233 --> 06:53.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMTIH] Yeah, right. [BROWN] Yes. 06:53.466 --> 06:54.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I guess we've all been conditioned, 06:54.766 --> 06:56.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% those of us who have been fortunate enough 06:56.133 --> 06:59.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to be in positions of leadership have been conditioned 06:59.366 --> 07:00.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to believe that we can train anybody 07:00.700 --> 07:03.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or fix anybody or bring anybody up 07:03.200 --> 07:06.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or bring anybody along, that anybody is a potential leader. 07:06.600 --> 07:10.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And it feels to me, reading this book, maybe not so much. 07:10.100 --> 07:11.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That there are people who are probably 07:11.800 --> 07:15.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% just not cut out for this, or designed for this, 07:15.466 --> 07:17.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or am I being too hard on people? 07:17.000 --> 07:18.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] I think you're being too hard on people. 07:18.466 --> 07:20.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] So you think anybody can qualify 07:20.233 --> 07:23.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% by the standards you've set down here, as a leader? 07:23.100 --> 07:24.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I think we all have the potential 07:24.700 --> 07:26.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to develop courage, and be courageous leaders. 07:26.933 --> 07:28.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I think that's absolutely true. 07:28.133 --> 07:30.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I think it's hard work. 07:30.066 --> 07:32.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think it takes a tremendous amount 07:32.433 --> 07:35.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of self-awareness and introspection, 07:35.066 --> 07:38.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I think we all have the capacity for it, 07:38.666 --> 07:41.266 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% but I do believe there are people 07:41.266 --> 07:43.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who will choose not to do it intentionally. 07:43.600 --> 07:45.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% So, I mentioned the takeaways. 07:45.233 --> 07:46.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There are a lot of takeaways from this book, 07:46.600 --> 07:48.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but my own takeaways reading this book were 07:48.500 --> 07:49.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% first of all, that it's not all 07:49.733 --> 07:50.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about title and status, as I said. 07:50.966 --> 07:52.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The second thing, you mentioned just now, 07:52.166 --> 07:54.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% which was self-awareness. The idea 07:54.033 --> 07:56.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that the best leaders show their 07:56.366 --> 07:58.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% vulnerability, lead with their vulnerability. 07:58.433 --> 08:00.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Vulnerability is a narrative through line 08:00.100 --> 08:01.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in so much of what you've done, 08:01.566 --> 08:02.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I wanna come back to this in a bigger-picture way 08:02.500 --> 08:04.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% than just simply in this book, 08:04.233 --> 08:06.366 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% but that is a big component of the best leaders. 08:06.366 --> 08:08.366 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% The best leaders are self-aware, 08:08.366 --> 08:10.366 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% they acknowledge, understand, and 08:10.366 --> 08:15.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% almost shine a light on their weaknesses, 08:15.066 --> 08:16.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% imperfections. 08:16.400 --> 08:17.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] The definition of vulnerability is 08:17.733 --> 08:21.333 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. 08:21.333 --> 08:23.900 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% You can't, I remember being at Fort Bragg 08:23.900 --> 08:26.700 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% and asking a group of special forces troops, 08:26.700 --> 08:29.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "Give me an example of courage that you experienced 08:29.933 --> 08:32.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "in your life, on the field or off the field, 08:32.133 --> 08:36.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "or you saw in someone else that didn't require 08:36.200 --> 08:38.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure," 08:38.600 --> 08:40.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and there was this long silence, and finally, 08:40.500 --> 08:42.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% a young man stood up and said, 08:42.633 --> 08:43.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "Three tours, ma'am. 08:43.833 --> 08:46.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "There is no courage without vulnerability." 08:46.500 --> 08:49.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't think you can get to courage 08:49.133 --> 08:52.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% without the capacity to deal with uncertainty, 08:52.033 --> 08:54.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% risk, and emotional exposure, and we've mythologized 08:54.633 --> 08:56.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% vulnerability as weakness. [SMITH] We've created this 08:56.433 --> 08:58.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% ideal that's ultimately unrealistic. 08:58.133 --> 08:59.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] Yeah, and it's like that it's weakness, 08:59.633 --> 09:01.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that it's oversharing, 09:01.233 --> 09:03.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that people will say to me, "I read 'Dare to Lead.' 09:03.800 --> 09:05.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "I'm gonna be a brave leader. 09:05.600 --> 09:06.633 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "How much should I cry? 09:06.633 --> 09:07.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "How much should I share?" 09:07.700 --> 09:08.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 09:08.600 --> 09:10.633 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% and I'm like... 09:10.633 --> 09:11.833 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 09:11.833 --> 09:13.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% As if there's a cheat sheet, right? 09:13.300 --> 09:16.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] Yeah, and as if we want oversharing, crying leaders. 09:16.033 --> 09:19.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% If it's a genuine thing, do it, but I'm not saying 09:19.733 --> 09:21.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to be vulnerable for vulnerability's sake, 09:21.700 --> 09:24.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm saying when things get hard and uncomfortable, 09:24.466 --> 09:27.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% don't tap out of difficult conversations. 09:27.100 --> 09:28.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Stay in them, lean into them, 09:28.833 --> 09:31.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% even when they're uncomfortable, awkward, hard. 09:31.666 --> 09:33.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Right, well, if, as the theory goes, 09:33.366 --> 09:36.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we're all vulnerable, we're all afraid, 09:36.233 --> 09:38.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% we all feel imperfect 09:38.100 --> 09:38.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] For sure. 09:38.933 --> 09:39.966 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [SMITH] or insufficient, 09:39.966 --> 09:40.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% we all lack confidence at times, 09:40.800 --> 09:42.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] At times, yeah. 09:42.366 --> 09:43.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] then maybe being who you are 09:43.633 --> 09:46.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% by showing that stuff is a form of authenticity 09:46.233 --> 09:48.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that we're lacking across the world these days. 09:48.733 --> 09:49.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Across the world. 09:49.933 --> 09:51.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - When you identify somebody who is 09:51.266 --> 09:53.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% successfully authentic, often what 09:53.633 --> 09:55.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they're simply doing is being themselves, 09:55.666 --> 09:58.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and that necessarily means showing those vulnerabilities. 09:58.900 --> 10:00.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] At times, yeah. I think that's absolutely right. 10:00.500 --> 10:02.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think that saying that's a great example 10:02.600 --> 10:05.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of that in leadership is a vulnerability 10:05.166 --> 10:07.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to not need to be the knower. 10:07.833 --> 10:09.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% So, so many leaders feel like they need 10:09.833 --> 10:11.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to be the knower and be right, 10:11.100 --> 10:13.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and that's more important than being 10:13.166 --> 10:15.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the learner and getting it right. 10:15.600 --> 10:18.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And so one part of vulnerability is to look at someone 10:18.266 --> 10:19.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and say, "I don't know the answer. 10:19.400 --> 10:20.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "Let's dig in together." 10:20.933 --> 10:22.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Or even something, again, I'm thinking about 10:22.433 --> 10:23.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% leadership in a little bit more conventional terms, 10:23.933 --> 10:25.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% even something as simple as not being 10:25.600 --> 10:27.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the knower and having that mean 10:27.466 --> 10:30.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that you sit quietly and let somebody else be the knower. 10:30.366 --> 10:32.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Even if you actually are the knower, 10:32.600 --> 10:34.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% one great thing about leading an organization 10:34.600 --> 10:36.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or leading a team is giving those people 10:36.666 --> 10:38.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the opportunity to rise up and be the knower. 10:38.233 --> 10:39.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Right? [BROWN] And that's hard, 10:39.733 --> 10:41.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because a lot of people that we move into leadership, 10:41.233 --> 10:42.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and not just in corporate leadership, 10:42.600 --> 10:46.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but civic leadership, faith communities, 10:46.966 --> 10:49.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we bring up people who love gold stars, 10:49.933 --> 10:51.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they've earned a lot of gold stars, 10:51.400 --> 10:52.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but then all of the sudden, they're, 10:52.666 --> 10:54.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% myself included, but all of the sudden, 10:54.333 --> 10:56.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you're a leader and your job is no longer 10:56.400 --> 10:59.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to collect gold stars, but to give gold stars. 10:59.300 --> 11:02.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And then you're like, "What about my gold stars?" 11:02.866 --> 11:04.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 11:04.100 --> 11:05.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Well, this is the thing, honestly, 11:05.400 --> 11:06.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the thing about being the boss 11:06.633 --> 11:08.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that sometimes sucks, but really doesn't, 11:08.866 --> 11:11.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% honestly, is if you're the boss, 11:11.066 --> 11:13.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you don't get the credit even if you deserve it, 11:13.633 --> 11:16.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and you take the blame even if you don't deserve it. 11:16.733 --> 11:19.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The most successful leaders understand 11:19.200 --> 11:20.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that they've got to protect everybody, 11:20.966 --> 11:22.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but at the same time, they have to share the credit, 11:22.700 --> 11:24.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% right? [BROWN] That's, yeah. 11:24.033 --> 11:25.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Share the gold stars. 11:25.266 --> 11:26.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] Share the gold stars. 11:26.133 --> 11:27.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [SMITH] Let somebody 11:27.533 --> 11:28.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% else be the knower, [BROWN] Give the gold stars. 11:28.466 --> 11:29.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Catch people doing things right. 11:29.933 --> 11:31.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You've talked about courage a couple of times, 11:31.333 --> 11:34.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and the whole idea of courageous leadership interests me, 11:34.100 --> 11:35.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because is there non-courageous, 11:35.966 --> 11:37.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I kind of wonder, [BROWN] Yes. 11:37.300 --> 11:38.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - what is the difference between 11:38.833 --> 11:41.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% courageous leadership and non-courageous leadership. 11:41.033 --> 11:42.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] I'm so glad you asked, 11:42.100 --> 11:43.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because-- [SMITH] Oh, good, okay. 11:43.533 --> 11:44.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] This-- [SMITH] I'll sit here and not be 11:44.900 --> 11:46.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the knower, how about that? [BROWN] Yes, no, 11:46.100 --> 11:47.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm obsessed with this. (audience laughs) 11:47.333 --> 11:50.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm obsessed with this, because I was wrong. 11:50.400 --> 11:53.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I hypothesized that the greatest barrier, 11:53.900 --> 11:55.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I'm wrong like 70% of the times 11:55.500 --> 11:56.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% with my hypotheses, (laughs) but 11:56.700 --> 11:59.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I really hypothesized that the biggest 11:59.833 --> 12:04.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% barrier to daring leadership would be fear, right? 12:04.066 --> 12:05.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That would make, that makes sense to me. 12:05.933 --> 12:08.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Then I went and reinterviewed some 12:08.166 --> 12:10.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of the most courageous leaders we had talked to, 12:10.166 --> 12:12.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and I was like, "How do you stay out of fear," 12:12.633 --> 12:15.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and they looked at me like, "I'm afraid all day long, 12:15.533 --> 12:18.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "every day," and I'm like, "No, but you're a daring leader," 12:18.333 --> 12:19.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they're like, "Well, maybe so, 12:19.266 --> 12:20.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "but I'm afraid all day long." 12:20.700 --> 12:24.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What we realized is that it's not fear that gets 12:24.133 --> 12:27.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the way of courageous leadership, it's armor. 12:27.066 --> 12:28.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's not that we're, we're all afraid 12:28.500 --> 12:31.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and brave all day long, sometimes in the same moment. 12:31.033 --> 12:34.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But what gets in the way of courageous leadership is 12:34.133 --> 12:38.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when we're in fear, do we keep the armor off, 12:38.000 --> 12:39.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or do we armor up and self-protect 12:39.866 --> 12:42.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in ways that move us away from authenticity, 12:42.900 --> 12:45.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that move us away from courage? 12:45.000 --> 12:47.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so, it's, I think the opposite 12:47.333 --> 12:49.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of courageous leadership is armored leadership. 12:49.966 --> 12:53.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, I love this, so, I really, I don't wanna move 12:53.966 --> 12:56.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% too far, but I wanna move more broadly 12:56.533 --> 13:00.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to your whole, the Brené Brown universe. 13:00.400 --> 13:03.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The books, the TED Talks, the research. 13:03.800 --> 13:05.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It seems to me that there's a narrative through line 13:05.666 --> 13:08.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that is counterintuitive, but is amazing 13:08.833 --> 13:10.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in its counterintuitiveness, and that is 13:10.966 --> 13:13.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that weakness is strength. And this is something 13:13.900 --> 13:15.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that I feel we've been taught 13:15.666 --> 13:17.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% from the time we were children, 13:17.166 --> 13:19.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% parents tell us to be strong. 13:19.466 --> 13:22.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% When we're in school, teachers tell us to be strong. 13:22.600 --> 13:24.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When we go out into the world of work, 13:24.600 --> 13:26.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% strength is an asset, not a liability. 13:26.866 --> 13:29.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Politicians talk all the time about the need for strength. 13:29.766 --> 13:32.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We have a President of the United States 13:32.633 --> 13:36.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who is all about articulating strength, 13:36.666 --> 13:38.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% if not actual strength, right? 13:38.866 --> 13:40.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Weakness is a liability. 13:40.066 --> 13:42.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% At the advertising world, there's 13:42.533 --> 13:43.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% actually a deodorant commercial 13:43.800 --> 13:47.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% whose tagline is "Never let 'em see you sweat." 13:47.200 --> 13:50.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% What is that if not 13:50.000 --> 13:54.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a rebuke of the idea that weakness is a positive? 13:54.700 --> 13:57.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I'm just so fascinated by this idea, 13:57.033 --> 13:59.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because we're conditioned, all of us, 13:59.466 --> 14:02.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to think that weakness is weakness, 14:02.233 --> 14:05.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% not weakness is strength, but you've turned it upside down. 14:07.033 --> 14:09.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I think, for me, the way I would frame 14:09.300 --> 14:14.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% what you just said is that we're all taught to be brave, 14:14.266 --> 14:17.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then warned to not be vulnerable. 14:17.800 --> 14:20.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I think that doesn't exist. 14:20.733 --> 14:21.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] As if those are different things. 14:21.833 --> 14:23.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] As if they're mutually 14:23.066 --> 14:24.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% exclusive. [SMITH] Right, they T-bone, 14:24.266 --> 14:25.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% yeah, right. [BROWN] Yeah, they T-bone, yeah. 14:25.700 --> 14:29.333 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% And I just cannot, in 400,000 pieces of data, find 14:29.333 --> 14:34.066 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% a single example of a courageous person, 14:34.066 --> 14:36.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or a courageous act that didn't require vulnerability. 14:36.466 --> 14:38.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When we ask people, "What is vulnerability?" 14:38.766 --> 14:40.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% 'cause the mythology, right, is that it's weakness, 14:40.633 --> 14:41.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% right-- [SMITH] Yeah, right. 14:41.900 --> 14:43.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] and so, when you ask people, 14:43.100 --> 14:44.433 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "What is vulnerability?" 14:44.433 --> 14:46.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "The first date after my divorce." 14:46.200 --> 14:49.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "Trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage." 14:49.000 --> 14:50.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "Sitting with my wife, who has stage-four 14:50.633 --> 14:53.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "breast cancer, trying to make plans for our toddlers." 14:53.566 --> 14:55.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "Starting my own business." 14:55.433 --> 14:57.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% "Losing my business." 14:57.166 --> 14:58.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% "Getting fired." 14:58.666 --> 15:01.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "Having to fire someone." 15:01.033 --> 15:04.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% One of my favorites, "Being in a relationship 15:04.200 --> 15:06.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "and saying, 'I love you,' first." 15:06.533 --> 15:09.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Those are scary, they're terrifying, 15:09.366 --> 15:11.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they're uncomfortable, they're uncertain, 15:11.033 --> 15:14.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but by no one's measure are those weakness. 15:14.500 --> 15:17.333 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% And so, we have to 15:17.333 --> 15:20.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% push back and dispel this idea 15:20.266 --> 15:22.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that vulnerability is weakness. 15:22.833 --> 15:25.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I could challenge the audience sitting here, 15:25.466 --> 15:26.900 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% people watching, 15:26.900 --> 15:30.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Give me an example of courage. One, from anybody. 15:30.600 --> 15:33.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Give me an example of courage 15:33.133 --> 15:35.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that does not require uncertainty, risk-- 15:35.000 --> 15:35.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [SMITH] Is not accompanied by 15:35.833 --> 15:37.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% risk and fear, right. 15:37.266 --> 15:40.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] You can't, and that was, if special forces 15:40.766 --> 15:42.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% over the last five years can't give me an example, 15:42.833 --> 15:45.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% if I'm working with fighter pilots that can't give 15:45.366 --> 15:47.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% me an example, the Seattle Seahawks can't give 15:47.733 --> 15:49.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% me an example, people who are really, 15:49.933 --> 15:53.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% firefighters, police officers, 15:53.033 --> 15:55.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% there's no courage without vulnerability. 15:55.766 --> 15:58.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Right, but you, I hear you, and I embrace this, 15:58.233 --> 16:00.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think this is a great thought about the world, 16:00.633 --> 16:02.633 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% but I'm also back to confronting 16:02.633 --> 16:04.500 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% the reality that we are conditioned to believe 16:04.500 --> 16:07.966 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% that if we are not strong, we're weak. 16:07.966 --> 16:11.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And that if we show any sign, a crack of light, 16:11.766 --> 16:13.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and again, I come back to politics. 16:13.433 --> 16:15.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think about the political environment. 16:15.266 --> 16:16.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We've just come through an election season, 16:16.700 --> 16:18.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in which we hear about the importance 16:18.166 --> 16:20.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of the strength of our country, the strength of our leaders, 16:20.800 --> 16:22.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the strength of our communities. 16:22.766 --> 16:24.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% We don't say, "America is great 16:24.666 --> 16:26.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "because America is vulnerable." 16:26.266 --> 16:27.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we never hear that at election time, 16:27.766 --> 16:32.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or that America is entitled to be fearful about the future. 16:32.666 --> 16:34.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's just that it's this, I just think 16:34.733 --> 16:37.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of it as almost a psychological version 16:37.500 --> 16:40.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of toxic masculinity, right? [BROWN] Yeah, yeah, I think 16:40.000 --> 16:41.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's right, and here's the thing 16:41.400 --> 16:44.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that I've also learned in the research: 16:44.166 --> 16:46.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Uncertainty is hard for all of us. 16:46.333 --> 16:48.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I'm a terrible person. 16:48.000 --> 16:51.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Uncertainty is dangerous. But one of 16:51.433 --> 16:54.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the surest ways to gain power is 16:54.900 --> 16:58.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% if you take people who are in uncertainty, 16:58.933 --> 17:02.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you sell them certainty and give them 17:02.333 --> 17:04.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% an enemy to blame for their pain. 17:04.466 --> 17:05.966 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Yep. 17:05.966 --> 17:08.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] You can get away with just almost about anything. 17:08.633 --> 17:11.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You just completely villainize that. 17:11.233 --> 17:16.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so, it's really hard to talk about sometimes, 17:16.166 --> 17:18.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because I started my research six months 17:18.133 --> 17:22.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% before 9/11, coincidentally, and I'm 17:22.133 --> 17:23.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a qualitative researcher, so I do 17:23.466 --> 17:25.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% most of my data gathering in interviews 17:25.800 --> 17:27.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or focus groups or meeting with large groups 17:27.566 --> 17:30.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of people, looking into people's eyes, 17:30.033 --> 17:33.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and fear has changed who we are. 17:33.200 --> 17:35.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I have watched it happen. 17:35.000 --> 17:36.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 17:36.200 --> 17:38.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Well, one of the ways, I'm just thinking, 17:38.200 --> 17:42.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% as fresh as the headlines that we've been watching 17:42.900 --> 17:44.800 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% unfold over the last couple of weeks, 17:46.066 --> 17:50.233 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% fear often causes us to demonize the other. 17:50.233 --> 17:51.466 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% [BROWN] For sure. 17:51.466 --> 17:52.733 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% [Smith] Right, so we heard a lot about 17:52.733 --> 17:54.866 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% this caravan, notice after Election Day, 17:54.866 --> 17:56.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% we haven't heard a word about 17:56.033 --> 17:57.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the caravan, right? [BROWN] Yeah. 17:57.500 --> 17:59.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But leading up to Election Day, all it was was the 17:59.266 --> 18:01.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% caravan, the caravan, is an invasion coming? 18:01.666 --> 18:04.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% If you breadcrumb that back to its origins, 18:04.900 --> 18:07.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% basically, it's about fear of the other, 18:07.733 --> 18:09.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% right? [BROWN] For sure. 18:09.200 --> 18:11.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] So I'm really interested in what kind of 18:11.133 --> 18:13.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% behavior that fear causes in us 18:13.366 --> 18:15.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% when it's villainized, right? 18:15.333 --> 18:17.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It separates us from people as 18:17.033 --> 18:18.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% opposed to brings us together. 18:18.200 --> 18:19.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It does, and here's the thing about, 18:19.833 --> 18:22.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and not just about other people, 18:22.733 --> 18:25.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% but myself included, we are much 18:25.766 --> 18:29.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% better at causing pain than feeling our own pain. 18:30.966 --> 18:32.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We are much better at taking what's 18:32.933 --> 18:36.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% hard and raw and rage and if you give us 18:36.633 --> 18:38.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% someone to hate, and you give us 18:38.500 --> 18:40.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a narrative about why they're dangerous, 18:40.200 --> 18:41.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and if you give us a narrative 18:41.733 --> 18:44.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about why they are to blame for our pain, 18:44.600 --> 18:47.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for our addicted children, for our loss of our jobs, 18:47.866 --> 18:49.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] It's easy to take that. [BROWN] It's, yeah, 18:49.733 --> 18:54.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% come on, give me something to do with this stuff 18:54.733 --> 18:57.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that is killing me to feel every day. 18:57.633 --> 18:59.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Yeah, and the knowledge that we can do that is 18:59.700 --> 19:01.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% comforting to some people who don't have other answers 19:01.933 --> 19:03.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for our problems, right? [BROWN] Yes, yeah. 19:03.600 --> 19:06.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But how many of us would love a leader that says, 19:06.700 --> 19:08.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "You know what, these are uncertain times, 19:08.400 --> 19:10.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "and we need to dig in together, 19:10.433 --> 19:11.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "and we need to be curious together." 19:11.600 --> 19:12.533 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Right. 19:12.533 --> 19:13.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Well, so let me go to that. 19:13.600 --> 19:15.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% That's interesting. 19:15.100 --> 19:18.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, you say, "It's easier to feel someone else, or to-- 19:18.133 --> 19:19.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] "It's easier to cause pain 19:19.566 --> 19:20.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% than to feel our own pain. [SMITH] "Cause pain than to feel 19:20.933 --> 19:22.200 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% "our own pain." 19:22.200 --> 19:24.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% How easy is it to feel somebody else's pain? 19:24.733 --> 19:27.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Your focus on empathy over time is really interesting 19:27.600 --> 19:28.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to me, because again, I think 19:28.800 --> 19:31.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% about everything through a political context, 19:31.033 --> 19:34.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and what we see in the political universe 19:34.566 --> 19:37.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and in the universe period right now is 19:37.133 --> 19:39.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% something, in my mind, of an empathy deficit. 19:39.033 --> 19:39.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [BROWN] Huge. 19:39.866 --> 19:41.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Huge. 19:41.066 --> 19:43.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% We don't empathize with the predicaments 19:43.300 --> 19:46.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or plights of other people, and when a figure comes along 19:46.000 --> 19:49.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who seems genuinely empathetic, it is notable, 19:49.933 --> 19:53.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and here I'm going to turn to our fellow Texan. 19:53.233 --> 19:55.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Your fellow Texan and mine, a 19:55.333 --> 19:57.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% congressman named Beto O'Rourke, 19:57.333 --> 19:59.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who captured the attention of the entire country, 19:59.966 --> 20:01.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% not just the state in which he ran, 20:01.566 --> 20:03.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% as it turned out, unsuccessfully 20:03.966 --> 20:05.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% for the United States Senate, but transcended 20:05.666 --> 20:08.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% his own race to become a national figure, 20:08.133 --> 20:11.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in large measure, because he seemed, unlike so many people 20:11.166 --> 20:14.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in that situation, genuinely empathetic. 20:14.300 --> 20:15.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% How many times did you see him 20:15.766 --> 20:18.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% with his arm draped around somebody at a campaign rally? 20:18.133 --> 20:19.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It never seemed cynical. 20:19.466 --> 20:20.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It always seemed authentic. 20:20.933 --> 20:23.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% He spoke in ways that seemed genuinely empathetic, 20:23.933 --> 20:27.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and this was notable because of its absence 20:27.600 --> 20:30.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the political world and in the world now. 20:30.766 --> 20:33.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Why is it so hard to be empathetic? 20:33.533 --> 20:34.733 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Why? 20:34.733 --> 20:36.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% What about human nature makes it so hard? 20:36.733 --> 20:39.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, I'll go back and say this, as, full disclosure, 20:39.400 --> 20:42.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% someone who supported Beto... 20:42.300 --> 20:44.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] Not illegal yet to say that. 20:44.966 --> 20:46.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Yes, yes. 20:46.533 --> 20:50.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Oh, yes, but I did. 20:50.466 --> 20:53.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He was not, he did not win the election, 20:53.366 --> 20:56.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I'm not sure that he wasn't successful. 20:56.066 --> 20:57.366 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I'm not sure that 20:57.366 --> 20:58.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% he didn't, yeah-- 20:58.666 --> 21:03.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience applauds) 21:03.100 --> 21:06.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think he showed us what was possible, and-- 21:06.766 --> 21:08.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And it seems, by the way, completely 21:08.200 --> 21:10.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in keeping with your whole rap about fear, 21:10.966 --> 21:15.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% vulnerability, empathy, right? [BROWN] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 21:15.400 --> 21:17.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I think we have some work in our country 21:17.133 --> 21:19.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to do, obviously, about acknowledging 21:19.533 --> 21:21.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the pain and fear that a lot of people are in. 21:21.800 --> 21:23.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think, if anything good has come from 21:23.800 --> 21:26.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% what we have seen, I'm just gonna just lay it 21:26.933 --> 21:28.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% on out there, because (audience laughs) 21:28.966 --> 21:31.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I feel like Townes Van Zandt has been in this room, 21:31.333 --> 21:35.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% so I feel called to do that. (audience laughs) 21:35.266 --> 21:36.400 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] You go. 21:36.400 --> 21:38.300 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [BROWN] Yeah. 21:38.300 --> 21:41.233 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% I feel like I'm not someone who looks 21:41.233 --> 21:43.166 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% for the silver lining in really hard things, 21:43.166 --> 21:45.533 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% because sometimes, just bad stuff happens, 21:45.533 --> 21:48.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you can grow from it and be grateful later. 21:48.133 --> 21:52.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% But I have to say, if anything, 21:52.433 --> 21:54.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% if any learning has been worth 21:54.600 --> 21:57.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% some of the pain, it is the learning 21:57.700 --> 22:01.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the white moderate who has convinced 22:01.933 --> 22:06.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% themselves that the racism, the sexism, 22:06.066 --> 22:11.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the things that we are seeing in full sight now were gone. 22:12.466 --> 22:16.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That I think people of color knew that they were there. 22:16.200 --> 22:19.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think for a lot of us, like for me, I'm 52. 22:19.366 --> 22:20.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I thought sexual harassment was 22:20.633 --> 22:23.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% the price of admission to work. 22:23.400 --> 22:26.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And so, I think, if anything, 22:26.966 --> 22:29.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Jungian therapist, Pittman McGehee is 22:29.533 --> 22:31.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% this Jungian therapist and used 22:31.133 --> 22:32.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to be at our church in Houston, and he says 22:32.666 --> 22:36.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% that from the Jungian tradition, 22:36.200 --> 22:40.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% every great progression will require 22:40.200 --> 22:41.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a massive regression before it happens. 22:41.933 --> 22:43.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (audience oohs) 22:43.166 --> 22:46.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And so, I hold onto that, I believe that. 22:46.600 --> 22:48.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] You think this is the massive regression? 22:48.433 --> 22:49.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 22:49.400 --> 22:50.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [BROWN] I do. 22:50.233 --> 22:52.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience applauds) 22:52.000 --> 22:53.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Not this interview! [SMITH] Yeah, no-- 22:53.766 --> 22:55.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] Not y'all! [SMITH] --yeah, yeah, 22:55.000 --> 22:56.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I didn't think it was going that badly, 22:56.400 --> 22:57.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but, yeah, yeah. [BROWN] Yeah, no, no. 22:57.800 --> 22:59.600 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% [SMITH] But of course, I wonder though, 22:59.600 --> 23:01.933 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% we'd like it to be the massive regression, 23:01.933 --> 23:04.033 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% because we know that the progression is around the corner, 23:04.033 --> 23:05.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but how do you know that it's not one of those situations 23:05.933 --> 23:07.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% where you go down into the basement 23:07.200 --> 23:08.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% only to discover there's another basement? 23:08.800 --> 23:10.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughs) 23:10.533 --> 23:11.833 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% Right? 23:11.833 --> 23:13.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] I choose hope. 23:13.166 --> 23:14.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I choose to believe. [SMITH] I feel like in the world 23:14.600 --> 23:15.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% these days, I always think I've hit the floor, 23:15.833 --> 23:17.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then I go, "Oop, nope, it turns out 23:17.066 --> 23:18.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "there's another floor down there." 23:18.300 --> 23:20.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] That's easy to do today, especially 23:20.233 --> 23:22.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% because I know you keep track of your politics, (laughs) 23:22.033 --> 23:23.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so it's like there's basement upon basement, 23:23.966 --> 23:26.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but I do believe, if you talk going 23:26.766 --> 23:29.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% back to Beto O'Rourke, I do believe 23:29.700 --> 23:31.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% he showed us what was possible, 23:31.700 --> 23:35.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% And I believe that his empathy 23:35.266 --> 23:37.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and his vulnerability in some ways, 23:37.700 --> 23:40.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I perceived as massive strength. 23:40.800 --> 23:45.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I just remember seeing a picture of him cooking 23:45.133 --> 23:46.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% breakfast in the morning in his house, 23:46.733 --> 23:48.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and he had-- [SMITH] Was he sweaty? 23:48.000 --> 23:49.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% (audience laughs) [BROWN] And he had a 23:49.200 --> 23:51.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Metallica shirt on, and I was like, 23:51.266 --> 23:54.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "That's a scene in my house when my husband's cooking 23:54.700 --> 23:56.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "chorizo and eggs"-- [SMITH] Very relatable. 23:56.366 --> 23:57.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] Yeah, totally relatable. 23:57.933 --> 23:59.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And I thought, but here's the thing. 23:59.466 --> 24:01.066 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% You know what? 24:02.066 --> 24:05.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% A lot of us, sometimes you say, 24:05.133 --> 24:07.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "You get the leaders you deserve." 24:07.333 --> 24:12.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% A lot of us don't want the relatable guy in the T-shirt. 24:12.233 --> 24:14.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% They want Oz. 24:14.533 --> 24:15.766 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% They want Oz. 24:15.766 --> 24:17.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They want the man behind the curtain. 24:17.166 --> 24:18.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They don't want the person, "I don't want 24:18.533 --> 24:19.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "the person that looks like my husband. 24:19.833 --> 24:21.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I don't want my husband running things," 24:21.466 --> 24:23.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or, "I don't want, what do you mean, me? 24:23.800 --> 24:25.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% "Uh-uh, no, it can't be me. 24:25.466 --> 24:30.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% "I need that father figure thing or something." 24:30.433 --> 24:34.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Where I don't, I'm like, "Give us the reins. 24:34.700 --> 24:38.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "It's time," but you gotta remember, 24:38.933 --> 24:40.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% there are people 24:40.933 --> 24:45.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who don't want the people who lead this country 24:45.100 --> 24:49.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to look like us, because they don't trust themselves, 24:49.933 --> 24:51.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they don't trust people who are-- 24:51.033 --> 24:52.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [SMITH] So they have a lack, 24:52.233 --> 24:53.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so it gets, really, back to, it's a classic 24:53.900 --> 24:56.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Brené Brown, they don't have confidence in themselves, 24:56.833 --> 24:58.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and so they assume that if someone looks 24:58.066 --> 25:00.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% like them, that they can't have confidence 25:00.166 --> 25:01.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and wouldn't have confidence in that person. 25:01.966 --> 25:03.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [BROWN] I think sometimes, yeah. 25:03.466 --> 25:04.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I think that sometimes 25:04.700 --> 25:05.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's the case. [SMITH] We elevate 25:05.933 --> 25:07.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the ideal in all ways, in all situations-- 25:07.200 --> 25:09.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] And then, yes, and I have to add this, 25:09.033 --> 25:12.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and there's also just systemic racism, 25:12.333 --> 25:14.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% classism, and sexism at work. 25:14.700 --> 25:15.933 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [SMITH] Right. 25:15.933 --> 25:17.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Well, I'm afraid we're out of time, 25:17.000 --> 25:18.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and that's an enormously 25:18.200 --> 25:19.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% upbeat place to end-- [BROWN] Oh my God! 25:19.433 --> 25:20.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] --isn't it? (audience laughs) 25:20.666 --> 25:22.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [BROWN] Let's end on love or something 25:22.000 --> 25:23.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% good. [SMITH] (laughs) Yeah, good, okay. 25:23.833 --> 25:25.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Well you made the heart sign with your hands. 25:25.466 --> 25:27.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That's actually good. (audience laughs) 25:27.433 --> 25:32.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I appreciate your sincerity and your hard work 25:32.366 --> 25:36.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and your vision, and your success is earned and deserved, 25:36.966 --> 25:38.133 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% [BROWN] Thanks. 25:38.133 --> 25:39.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [SMITH] And it's really just a delight 25:39.366 --> 25:41.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to get to hear from you just in a short time, 25:41.566 --> 25:43.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but I look forward to continuing to see what you do. 25:43.766 --> 25:45.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Thank you. 25:45.266 --> 25:46.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Thank you for giving us all so much to think about. 25:46.433 --> 25:47.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% [BROWN] Thank you. 25:47.866 --> 25:52.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] Dr. Brené Brown. (audience applauds and cheers) 25:53.733 --> 25:54.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [SMITH] We'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:54.966 --> 25:58.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Visit our website at klru.org/overheard 25:58.666 --> 26:00.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, 26:00.500 --> 26:03.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Q and As with our audience and guests, 26:03.233 --> 26:06.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and an archive of past episodes. 26:06.100 --> 26:11.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% [BROWN] I'm a huge believer, myself a consumer of, therapy. 26:11.066 --> 26:12.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% When you're setting boundaries, 26:12.766 --> 26:14.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% [AUDIENCE MEMBER] Yeah, me too. 26:14.266 --> 26:16.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - in your family of origin, having a helping professional, 26:16.533 --> 26:18.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a therapist, a social worker, a counselor, 26:18.866 --> 26:20.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who, sometimes I would just go in and be like, 26:20.833 --> 26:22.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "I just wanna role play with you for 30 minutes, 26:22.166 --> 26:24.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% "and then I'm gonna cuss for 20, and I'll write 26:24.333 --> 26:25.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you a check." (audience laughs) 26:25.600 --> 26:28.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [NARRATOR] Funding for Overheard with 26:28.100 --> 26:29.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Evan Smith is provided in part by 26:29.866 --> 26:32.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs 26:32.866 --> 26:37.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% consultancy; the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation; 26:37.433 --> 26:41.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Claire and Carl Stuart; and by Entergy. 26:42.300 --> 26:45.033 align:left position:30%,start line:5% size:60% (relaxing music)