1 00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:03,000 - [Announcer] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,833 is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds 3 00:00:05,833 --> 00:00:07,300 Foundation. 4 00:00:07,300 --> 00:00:11,333 And Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy. 5 00:00:11,333 --> 00:00:14,466 And by KLRU's Producers Circle, 6 00:00:14,466 --> 00:00:16,366 ensuring local programming that reflects 7 00:00:16,366 --> 00:00:17,900 the character and interests 8 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:21,200 of the Greater Austin, Texas community. 9 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,733 - I'm Evan Smith, he's America's Police Chief, 10 00:00:23,733 --> 00:00:26,800 the longtime and now former top cop in Dallas, 11 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,766 thrust into the national spotlight on one of the force's 12 00:00:29,766 --> 00:00:32,266 and the city's most tragic days. 13 00:00:32,266 --> 00:00:35,566 His memoir, Called to Rise: A Life in Faithful Service 14 00:00:35,566 --> 00:00:39,000 to the Community That Made Me, has just been published. 15 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,766 He's David O. Brown, this is Overheard. 16 00:00:42,766 --> 00:00:45,800 Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn 17 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,300 or is this about the experience 18 00:00:47,300 --> 00:00:48,966 of not having been taught properly? 19 00:00:48,966 --> 00:00:52,033 How have you avoided what has befallen other nations 20 00:00:52,033 --> 00:00:53,266 in Africa? 21 00:00:53,266 --> 00:00:54,533 You can say that he'd made his own bed, 22 00:00:54,533 --> 00:00:55,966 but you caused him to sleep in it. 23 00:00:55,966 --> 00:00:59,633 You saw a problem and over time took it on. 24 00:00:59,633 --> 00:01:02,500 Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak, 25 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:03,733 are you gonna run for President? 26 00:01:03,733 --> 00:01:06,333 I think I just got an F from you. 27 00:01:06,333 --> 00:01:07,600 This is Overheard. 28 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,266 (audience applause) 29 00:01:10,266 --> 00:01:11,600 Chief Brown, welcome. 30 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:12,700 - Thank you. - Thank you for being here, 31 00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:14,233 and congratulations on the book. 32 00:01:14,233 --> 00:01:16,233 I have to say, I kinda wish you didn't have to write it. 33 00:01:16,233 --> 00:01:18,233 Right, I wish the events that propelled this book 34 00:01:18,233 --> 00:01:19,966 to exist hadn't happened. 35 00:01:19,966 --> 00:01:21,400 Although, 36 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,200 it's such an interesting story that you tell 37 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,866 not just of July 7th of 2016 but your own 38 00:01:26,866 --> 00:01:29,000 life, and I think that actually for a lot of us, 39 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,733 finding out about you as the backdrop for this book 40 00:01:32,733 --> 00:01:34,233 is worth the read. 41 00:01:34,233 --> 00:01:36,566 - Yes, and I've been an extremely private person, 42 00:01:36,566 --> 00:01:38,500 even though a public figure 43 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:42,433 for various reasons but this book reveals my thoughts, 44 00:01:42,433 --> 00:01:44,600 my life, how it applied-- 45 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,633 - Story behind the story. - Purpose, meaning, yeah. 46 00:01:48,633 --> 00:01:50,200 - The events, I should say, of July 7th, 47 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,366 obviously people are aware of them in the abstract, 48 00:01:52,366 --> 00:01:54,533 or maybe in specific if they paid attention to the news 49 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:55,900 of that day and after it. 50 00:01:55,900 --> 00:01:58,100 Let's set this scene for that and talk about that 51 00:01:58,100 --> 00:01:59,666 a little bit before we talk about you. 52 00:01:59,666 --> 00:02:02,633 So, 2016 was a particularly brutal year in this country 53 00:02:02,633 --> 00:02:05,900 in terms of the relationship between the police 54 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:07,300 and citizens. 55 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:09,833 You had 64 police officers, I believe, shot, 56 00:02:09,833 --> 00:02:12,533 you said in the book, and 21 ambushed. 57 00:02:12,533 --> 00:02:13,833 - Yes. - And a thousand, 58 00:02:13,833 --> 00:02:17,233 almost a thousand people killed by the police. 59 00:02:17,233 --> 00:02:19,933 - Yes. - Also, last year. 60 00:02:19,933 --> 00:02:23,533 - Yes, and it reached a fever pitch in July after-- 61 00:02:23,533 --> 00:02:25,933 - Just to the run-up to this-- 62 00:02:25,933 --> 00:02:29,833 - Yes, for the shootings in Baton Rouge, Louisiana 63 00:02:29,833 --> 00:02:30,766 and the shootings in Minnesota. 64 00:02:30,766 --> 00:02:32,133 - Alton Sterling in Louisiana, 65 00:02:32,133 --> 00:02:33,733 Philando Castile in Minnesota. 66 00:02:33,733 --> 00:02:36,033 Those both happened over the July 4th-- 67 00:02:36,033 --> 00:02:37,033 - Weekend. - Weekend. 68 00:02:37,033 --> 00:02:38,233 - Yes. 69 00:02:38,233 --> 00:02:39,666 - So that's really the immediate backdrop 70 00:02:39,666 --> 00:02:41,800 to what happened on July 7th in Dallas 71 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,900 because those two killings prompt protests, 72 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:47,366 rallies, all across the country. 73 00:02:47,366 --> 00:02:49,600 Including one in Dallas and the Dallas one 74 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,266 was really at the same time happening, 75 00:02:51,266 --> 00:02:52,800 similar events happening in other places. 76 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,933 - Yes, and we felt that this was a critical point 77 00:02:56,933 --> 00:02:58,866 in police/community relationships 78 00:02:58,866 --> 00:03:01,766 and that this protest was really important to manage well. 79 00:03:01,766 --> 00:03:04,033 - Do you have any reason to fear that things would go 80 00:03:04,033 --> 00:03:05,566 off the rails on that day? 81 00:03:05,566 --> 00:03:08,300 Going into that day, knowing that people's tensions were 82 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:09,500 at a high point, 83 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,000 knowing everything that had preceded this, 84 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,533 did you go into this day thinking, 85 00:03:13,533 --> 00:03:17,433 "We really have to plan for this ending badly?" 86 00:03:18,566 --> 00:03:20,133 - No, actually it was just the opposite. 87 00:03:20,133 --> 00:03:23,866 We had met with the planners of the protest 88 00:03:23,866 --> 00:03:28,133 weeks before when we knew the July 4th weekend 89 00:03:28,133 --> 00:03:31,300 prompted this idea of a national protest day. 90 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:33,733 And so we met with them, we were 91 00:03:33,733 --> 00:03:35,933 in undercover capacity in their planning meetings, 92 00:03:35,933 --> 00:03:38,333 we were hearing what they were planning to do, 93 00:03:38,333 --> 00:03:40,200 they were planning to have a peaceful protest 94 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,366 and they intentionally wanted to be peaceful 95 00:03:42,366 --> 00:03:44,733 because they wanted the country to hear 96 00:03:44,733 --> 00:03:48,133 their concerns and not be distracted by violence, 97 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:49,566 or property damage or whatever. 98 00:03:49,566 --> 00:03:52,500 So we knew that they were gonna have speakers, 99 00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:54,933 have a pretty stationary event in a park downtown, 100 00:03:54,933 --> 00:03:56,300 and then disperse. 101 00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:58,333 That was the plan and it was going to plan. 102 00:03:58,333 --> 00:04:00,666 - And Dallas also, let's say, not just any city 103 00:04:00,666 --> 00:04:01,733 in this country, right? 104 00:04:01,733 --> 00:04:03,233 It is the 105 00:04:03,233 --> 00:04:05,000 the 9th largest city in the entire country, 106 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,500 it has a long history of issues around race. 107 00:04:08,500 --> 00:04:09,733 - Yes, it does. 108 00:04:09,733 --> 00:04:11,900 - And so, Dallas as a particular backdrop 109 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:13,366 is an element of this story, 110 00:04:13,366 --> 00:04:15,133 and maybe a greater burden for this city 111 00:04:15,133 --> 00:04:16,333 to show its best face. 112 00:04:16,333 --> 00:04:17,833 - I agree. 113 00:04:17,833 --> 00:04:21,366 And we were intentional in our ways of managing this crowd. 114 00:04:21,366 --> 00:04:24,033 We were making sure that the best of Dallas 115 00:04:24,033 --> 00:04:24,966 was gonna be-- 116 00:04:24,966 --> 00:04:25,766 - On display. - Display. 117 00:04:25,766 --> 00:04:27,666 - So the gentleman who 118 00:04:27,666 --> 00:04:29,100 killed these police officers. 119 00:04:29,100 --> 00:04:33,466 Five officers ultimately died as a result of this day. 120 00:04:33,466 --> 00:04:35,933 Micah Johnson was an Army veteran, African American, 121 00:04:35,933 --> 00:04:39,833 and he very specifically said, we came to know, 122 00:04:39,833 --> 00:04:41,566 that he was targeting 123 00:04:42,766 --> 00:04:44,966 the police, and white police, specifically, 124 00:04:44,966 --> 00:04:48,133 as a result of these incidents that have happened elsewhere. 125 00:04:48,133 --> 00:04:50,433 - Yes, we learned that later at the time 126 00:04:50,433 --> 00:04:52,166 when we negotiated with him. 127 00:04:52,166 --> 00:04:53,833 People think this was a long, drawn-out event. 128 00:04:53,833 --> 00:04:55,200 And it was to a certain extent, 129 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,333 but the shootout was just a few minutes, 130 00:04:57,333 --> 00:05:01,166 then we spent the time after the suspect gets cornered, 131 00:05:01,166 --> 00:05:02,500 three and a half hours to try to bring it 132 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:04,033 to a peaceful conclusion, 133 00:05:04,033 --> 00:05:06,566 even though there had been the most extreme violence 134 00:05:06,566 --> 00:05:07,966 you could imagine, 135 00:05:07,966 --> 00:05:09,400 we still wanted to give him an opportunity 136 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,633 to give up peacefully 137 00:05:10,633 --> 00:05:12,000 and that opportunity just didn't exist. 138 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,466 - Yeah, and so, ultimately, as we now know 139 00:05:13,466 --> 00:05:16,100 from watching the events on that day, 140 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:17,366 you had a robot 141 00:05:18,733 --> 00:05:20,666 with a bomb on it. 142 00:05:20,666 --> 00:05:21,600 - A pound of C-4. 143 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,100 - Right, that you sent in, 144 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:26,400 and that's ultimately how you resolved the situation. 145 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,833 He was killed and situation was brought to a close 146 00:05:29,833 --> 00:05:31,066 and that was it. 147 00:05:31,066 --> 00:05:32,266 It could have been a lot worse and in fact, 148 00:05:32,266 --> 00:05:34,100 he talked about having intentions for it 149 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:35,033 to have been a lot worse. 150 00:05:35,033 --> 00:05:36,300 In fact, at one point he said 151 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:38,233 there were bombs all over Dallas, right? 152 00:05:38,233 --> 00:05:42,333 - Not just his intent to create the most damage he could 153 00:05:42,333 --> 00:05:43,766 to people. 154 00:05:43,766 --> 00:05:46,800 He wanted to divide us around race. 155 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,900 He particularly wanted to target white cops, 156 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:51,400 so that we could be more divided, 157 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,200 in this area of white cops versus communities of color. 158 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,666 This was more than just, 159 00:05:56,666 --> 00:05:58,533 the violence which was bad enough, 160 00:05:58,533 --> 00:06:00,566 but he wanted to spark something 161 00:06:00,566 --> 00:06:02,900 that would divide our city, divide our country even more. 162 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:04,433 - Right. 163 00:06:04,433 --> 00:06:07,333 What allowed this situation not to be worse than it was? 164 00:06:07,333 --> 00:06:10,666 I mean, that's a strange question, I'm sure. 165 00:06:10,666 --> 00:06:12,166 What happened? 166 00:06:12,166 --> 00:06:14,466 What was the decision point or what were the elements 167 00:06:14,466 --> 00:06:16,133 that allowed the situation to be contained 168 00:06:16,133 --> 00:06:17,300 from your perspective? 169 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:19,100 - I had the, 170 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:20,366 the belief that 171 00:06:21,700 --> 00:06:24,433 whatever would happen, divided or we'd come together, 172 00:06:24,433 --> 00:06:28,333 rested on how we talked to the public 173 00:06:28,333 --> 00:06:31,800 and the world when we were being, 174 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,733 having press conferences. - So the aftermath of this. 175 00:06:33,733 --> 00:06:35,300 How you talked about the events of that day 176 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:36,566 and what it meant, 177 00:06:36,566 --> 00:06:39,000 what it signified about what had happened prior, 178 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,800 and what it would mean going forward. 179 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,866 - I actually got a question from a media person 180 00:06:45,866 --> 00:06:48,000 about what this meant. 181 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,766 And specifically, I answered the question 182 00:06:50,766 --> 00:06:53,300 in a more broad term, not just speaking to that reporter, 183 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:54,733 or to Dallas. 184 00:06:54,733 --> 00:06:57,333 I was speaking to the country and the answer was, 185 00:06:57,333 --> 00:07:00,533 "We're not gonna let a coward change our democracy," 186 00:07:00,533 --> 00:07:04,166 that we're not going to now be more divided 187 00:07:04,166 --> 00:07:06,033 because this person does this. 188 00:07:06,033 --> 00:07:09,066 And this is an opportunity for us to challenge 189 00:07:09,066 --> 00:07:11,600 each other to do better but also to come together 190 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,066 on common goals. 191 00:07:13,066 --> 00:07:14,700 - Right, you're not under the illusion of course, Chief, 192 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:18,166 that this situation was going to cause the race to relations 193 00:07:18,166 --> 00:07:20,966 in this country to suddenly repair or the relationship 194 00:07:20,966 --> 00:07:22,866 between the police and communities of color 195 00:07:22,866 --> 00:07:25,133 to suddenly repair because this is an ongoing situation. 196 00:07:25,133 --> 00:07:28,366 It's been ongoing in the year since, I'm sad to say. 197 00:07:28,366 --> 00:07:31,100 You're probably acknowledged that we're not any better 198 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:33,233 really than we were before. 199 00:07:33,233 --> 00:07:34,800 - I'm naive so I'm gonna first check 200 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,400 the box of a naive person. 201 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,333 Because I left school my senior year here at UT Austin 202 00:07:40,333 --> 00:07:42,333 to become a police officer 203 00:07:42,333 --> 00:07:43,633 to save the world. 204 00:07:43,633 --> 00:07:47,600 I am that naive to believe that we can 205 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,433 take the worst of circumstances and be the beneficiaries 206 00:07:51,433 --> 00:07:52,966 of the greatest hope. 207 00:07:52,966 --> 00:07:54,766 - You still choose to believe that there's a solution there. 208 00:07:54,766 --> 00:07:55,700 That there's a fix there. 209 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:56,733 - Yes. 210 00:07:56,733 --> 00:07:57,566 I insist on it. 211 00:07:57,566 --> 00:07:58,433 - You insist on it. 212 00:07:58,433 --> 00:07:59,366 - Yeah. - Do you believe 213 00:07:59,366 --> 00:08:01,966 that the police have a beef 214 00:08:01,966 --> 00:08:04,766 with the communities they serve? 215 00:08:04,766 --> 00:08:06,366 I want you to 216 00:08:06,366 --> 00:08:08,766 speak truth here about what's goin' on. 217 00:08:08,766 --> 00:08:10,766 Why do we have this problem between law enforcement 218 00:08:10,766 --> 00:08:12,066 and communities of color? 219 00:08:12,066 --> 00:08:15,033 You grew up in a community in Dallas 220 00:08:15,033 --> 00:08:16,733 that has been, 221 00:08:16,733 --> 00:08:18,833 you know, you understand from the community side 222 00:08:18,833 --> 00:08:20,900 of this conversation, right? 223 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,600 - So, let me be plainspoken. 224 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:24,933 I've been black a long time. 225 00:08:24,933 --> 00:08:27,066 (audience laughs) 226 00:08:27,066 --> 00:08:28,300 - I will fact check that. 227 00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:29,566 - Okay. (laughs) (audience laughs) 228 00:08:29,566 --> 00:08:31,533 - Confirmed. - So, I've been stereotyped 229 00:08:31,533 --> 00:08:32,866 as a black man. 230 00:08:32,866 --> 00:08:34,133 And I hate it. 231 00:08:34,133 --> 00:08:35,800 I hate that if a black person does something, 232 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,733 all blacks can be cast as what that person did 233 00:08:38,733 --> 00:08:40,000 in a negative light. 234 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,400 And I've been a cop all of my adult life. 235 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,966 And I hate it when a cop does something 236 00:08:45,966 --> 00:08:48,700 and it cast the whole lot of policing in a bad-- 237 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:50,866 - There's a stereotyping of that as well. 238 00:08:50,866 --> 00:08:53,133 - Stereotyping divides us further. 239 00:08:53,133 --> 00:08:56,166 It's not a solution to stereotype and there are some cops 240 00:08:56,166 --> 00:08:58,500 that don't deserve to wear the uniform. 241 00:08:58,500 --> 00:08:59,833 Without question. 242 00:08:59,833 --> 00:09:01,900 But explain to me how five cops 243 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:04,366 can give the ultimate sacrifice, 244 00:09:04,366 --> 00:09:05,866 run toward gunfires, 245 00:09:05,866 --> 00:09:08,933 kill protestors who had just been protesting them 246 00:09:08,933 --> 00:09:12,266 between bullets and their bodies 247 00:09:12,266 --> 00:09:16,333 and be racist and cast in the same light 248 00:09:16,333 --> 00:09:18,866 as the one or 2% of cops that don't need to be 249 00:09:18,866 --> 00:09:21,800 in the uniform as the same as I as a black man 250 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,900 will be cast in a stereotypical way in other negative tones. 251 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:28,333 - But is the negative critique of the Police Chief 252 00:09:28,333 --> 00:09:30,466 or is the negative critique of the communities 253 00:09:30,466 --> 00:09:34,600 that the police serves in any way legitimate? 254 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,966 - There are individual instances 255 00:09:37,966 --> 00:09:39,866 of cops behaving badly. 256 00:09:41,033 --> 00:09:44,200 And there are people in the community, 257 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,566 patricularly communities of color behaving badly. 258 00:09:46,566 --> 00:09:47,766 - Right. 259 00:09:47,766 --> 00:09:49,233 - But you can't cast the whole lot. 260 00:09:49,233 --> 00:09:51,200 - A few bad cops or a certain number of bad cops 261 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,266 are not the police in the main. 262 00:09:53,266 --> 00:09:54,500 - Right. 263 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:55,833 - And a few bad actors in these communities 264 00:09:55,833 --> 00:09:58,266 are not the black communities, say, in the main. 265 00:09:58,266 --> 00:10:01,266 The problem is that we tend to simplistically associate 266 00:10:01,266 --> 00:10:04,933 the bad actors on both sides with the institution. 267 00:10:04,933 --> 00:10:06,833 - With broad strokes. - Broad strokes. 268 00:10:06,833 --> 00:10:08,666 - With no solutions in between. 269 00:10:08,666 --> 00:10:10,533 - How do you change it? 270 00:10:10,533 --> 00:10:14,333 - I go back to how our democracy was formed. 271 00:10:14,333 --> 00:10:16,266 Particularly the local democracy changes, 272 00:10:16,266 --> 00:10:18,233 more significantly, our lives. 273 00:10:18,233 --> 00:10:21,333 So what I mean by that real quickly is 274 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:23,700 protesting alone has never significantly changed anything 275 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:25,200 in our country. 276 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,033 The Civil Rights movement is the closest example. 277 00:10:27,033 --> 00:10:30,300 50 years ago, young people began protesting. 278 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,733 And then they challenged in the courts, 279 00:10:33,733 --> 00:10:34,900 the laws. 280 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,800 The divider segregated by equal laws. 281 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,300 And then they ran for government 282 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:41,800 and got elected and served. 283 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,733 John Lewis got elected and served in government, 284 00:10:43,733 --> 00:10:45,333 after protesting. 285 00:10:45,333 --> 00:10:46,600 They wanted the Voting Rights Act 286 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,000 so they can have the right to vote. 287 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,066 So they could then, particularly at the local level, 288 00:10:51,066 --> 00:10:55,166 have an impact on city council, city managers, mayors. 289 00:10:55,166 --> 00:10:59,033 So that they could then be represented in government. 290 00:10:59,033 --> 00:11:00,833 That their point of view could be represented. 291 00:11:00,833 --> 00:11:02,400 - But you understand that in communities like Dallas, 292 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,466 Austin, Houston, San Francisco, Chicago, pick a city, 293 00:11:05,466 --> 00:11:08,200 people believe that coming out and showing 294 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,233 that they have a problem with the way things are, 295 00:11:10,233 --> 00:11:12,066 whatever that issue may be, 296 00:11:12,066 --> 00:11:13,700 whatever the community may be, 297 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:15,466 they believe that having their voices heard 298 00:11:15,466 --> 00:11:17,000 is an essential component, 299 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,633 maybe the first pebble in the path of our democracy. 300 00:11:19,633 --> 00:11:20,900 You're not saying they shouldn't do that. 301 00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:22,566 - No, I'm saying let's contrast that 302 00:11:22,566 --> 00:11:25,400 with the last city council election in Dallas, 303 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,000 just a few weeks ago. 304 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,600 6% turnout. - Right. 305 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,766 - Which means 94% of the people at the local level, 306 00:11:32,766 --> 00:11:34,233 stayed at home. 307 00:11:34,233 --> 00:11:37,433 And when you protest and have that kind of participation 308 00:11:37,433 --> 00:11:38,833 in our local democracy, 309 00:11:38,833 --> 00:11:40,733 you cannot expect any significance. 310 00:11:40,733 --> 00:11:42,700 - Ultimately it doesn't matter if you don't do 311 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:44,866 what is necessary to make change happen. 312 00:11:44,866 --> 00:11:46,133 - Yes. 313 00:11:46,133 --> 00:11:48,266 - And that's where that comes from. 314 00:11:48,266 --> 00:11:50,366 Do you expect that we're gonna have situations like Dallas 315 00:11:50,366 --> 00:11:51,866 going forward? 316 00:11:51,866 --> 00:11:53,533 I mean, it feels like, how can you say no, right? 317 00:11:53,533 --> 00:11:56,100 - We take a step forward and then another viral video 318 00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:58,233 comes out and we take two steps back. 319 00:11:58,233 --> 00:12:00,400 And so it's been a most challenging time, 320 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,666 and we right now don't know how reform is gonna go forward 321 00:12:03,666 --> 00:12:06,333 from the federal aspects of how the justice department 322 00:12:06,333 --> 00:12:08,666 would put forth a consent decree. 323 00:12:08,666 --> 00:12:09,500 So we don't know that. 324 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:10,933 What it's gonna take, 325 00:12:10,933 --> 00:12:13,100 and I'm gonna repeat this again, 326 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:14,633 is 327 00:12:14,633 --> 00:12:16,900 putting some skin in the game at the local democracy level, 328 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:18,100 a municipal government, 329 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:20,133 that's where the police chiefs are hired, 330 00:12:20,133 --> 00:12:23,366 that's where the mayors and the city council write policy, 331 00:12:23,366 --> 00:12:25,266 change training for police officers. 332 00:12:25,266 --> 00:12:28,500 They can actually reform through engage participation 333 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:29,733 in the local government. 334 00:12:29,733 --> 00:12:30,666 - So if you don't like what's going on 335 00:12:30,666 --> 00:12:31,900 you gotta change it, that's it. 336 00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:33,333 - Yeah, put some skin in the game. 337 00:12:33,333 --> 00:12:35,200 I quit school my senior year, became a police officer. 338 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,633 That is not the only thing you can do 339 00:12:36,633 --> 00:12:38,000 is become a police officer. 340 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,133 - But that's an example, I mean you're an example 341 00:12:39,133 --> 00:12:40,633 of somebody who said, 342 00:12:40,633 --> 00:12:43,366 "I can't just sit back and watch a situation unfold 343 00:12:43,366 --> 00:12:44,600 "that I'm not happy with. 344 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:45,866 "I've gotta put myself in the middle of it 345 00:12:45,866 --> 00:12:48,133 "and try to be a positive changer." 346 00:12:48,133 --> 00:12:49,833 - Yes, after you finish protesting, 347 00:12:49,833 --> 00:12:53,200 put that protest sign down and put an application in. 348 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,900 Be the change you wanna see. 349 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:56,900 - You were chief for six years, maybe a little bit more. 350 00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:58,966 You were on the force for more than 33 years. 351 00:12:58,966 --> 00:13:00,300 - Yes. 352 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:01,900 - You know how the police department, 353 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,266 how police forces work. 354 00:13:03,266 --> 00:13:04,666 Are there things practically over and above 355 00:13:04,666 --> 00:13:06,033 what we're talking about at a high level, 356 00:13:06,033 --> 00:13:08,300 or are there on the ground, granular things 357 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:11,500 that forces can do to ensure that the relationship 358 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:13,000 between themselves and the community 359 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,166 is better and healthier? 360 00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:15,700 Some aspect of community policing. 361 00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:17,266 Is there technology that can be used, 362 00:13:17,266 --> 00:13:19,166 whether it's body cameras or dashboard cameras 363 00:13:19,166 --> 00:13:21,766 the kinds of things that have come into common usage 364 00:13:21,766 --> 00:13:24,633 or we're all kind of familiar enough with them? 365 00:13:24,633 --> 00:13:27,200 More that forces now looking back over your shoulder, 366 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,900 can be doing or should be doing? 367 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:30,966 - Yes, all of the above, check all the boxes. 368 00:13:30,966 --> 00:13:34,000 Here's the best example that I can give. 369 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,200 There are cops that I used to get assigned with, 370 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:37,933 that today other cops get assigned with, 371 00:13:37,933 --> 00:13:39,200 you don't wanna ride with them. 372 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,066 'Cause when they get to a scene with you, 373 00:13:41,066 --> 00:13:42,666 they're gonna cause problems. 374 00:13:42,666 --> 00:13:44,033 They're gonna have you in Internal Affairs, writing letters, 375 00:13:44,033 --> 00:13:46,133 they're gonna put your career on the line. 376 00:13:46,133 --> 00:13:47,366 When you go to a call and they're in the call with you, 377 00:13:47,366 --> 00:13:48,766 "Hey, hey, you stay in the car, 378 00:13:48,766 --> 00:13:50,466 "I'll go handle this, when I get back, 379 00:13:50,466 --> 00:13:51,766 "let's go to the next call." 380 00:13:51,766 --> 00:13:54,166 Cops know the cops that shouldn't be cops. 381 00:13:54,166 --> 00:13:55,900 There's a small percentage. 382 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:57,633 And the risks are, the reason why I'm saying this, 383 00:13:57,633 --> 00:14:00,266 the risks are this small percentage can hijack 384 00:14:00,266 --> 00:14:01,733 the internal organization. 385 00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:03,166 - Why can't you get those bad cops out? 386 00:14:03,166 --> 00:14:04,666 - That's the question that has to be answered 387 00:14:04,666 --> 00:14:06,366 by police leadership. 388 00:14:06,366 --> 00:14:10,133 I've terminated over 60 cops as police chief 389 00:14:10,133 --> 00:14:12,166 during the six years I was there. 390 00:14:12,166 --> 00:14:14,100 And that casts you 391 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:17,100 being portrayed as not being supportive of a police-- 392 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:19,733 - Enemy of the cops. - Yes. 393 00:14:19,733 --> 00:14:21,133 Is the police union the issue? 394 00:14:21,133 --> 00:14:23,500 - Sometimes it's the culture, not the union. 395 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:25,033 Union is the reflection of the culture 396 00:14:25,033 --> 00:14:26,633 where people pay dues and expect to be represented. 397 00:14:26,633 --> 00:14:29,333 I'm not against unions but per se, 398 00:14:29,333 --> 00:14:32,400 but police leadership have to put their careers on the line 399 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,633 and challenge the police and culture to get the one or 2%. 400 00:14:35,633 --> 00:14:39,133 You owe it to the 98% who are doing the job the right way, 401 00:14:39,133 --> 00:14:40,566 to get the one or 2% out of policing. 402 00:14:40,566 --> 00:14:42,533 - In some ways, public education is having a voice 403 00:14:42,533 --> 00:14:44,033 in this conversation as well, right? 404 00:14:44,033 --> 00:14:45,666 You have a 10-year system at the higher ed level, 405 00:14:45,666 --> 00:14:47,933 or in the case of public ed, you've got unions 406 00:14:47,933 --> 00:14:49,500 that are very protective of their folks 407 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,433 and understandably so. 408 00:14:51,433 --> 00:14:53,200 But there are bad teachers who are probably 409 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,566 you know, in schools, people know who the bad teachers are 410 00:14:55,566 --> 00:14:57,300 in the same way that enforcers people know 411 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:58,533 who the bad cops are. 412 00:14:58,533 --> 00:14:59,966 - Great segue for this next point. 413 00:14:59,966 --> 00:15:03,166 It's a good point for me to make. 414 00:15:03,166 --> 00:15:04,766 The whole time I was chief, I wish my cops 415 00:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,266 would throw a hundred mile and hour fastball, 416 00:15:07,266 --> 00:15:08,566 or a (mumbles) ball. 417 00:15:08,566 --> 00:15:11,133 Because they're not compensated 418 00:15:11,133 --> 00:15:13,400 for the task we expect them to do. 419 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,100 We expect them to be perfect, 420 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:16,000 not make mistakes, 421 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,500 particularly on video, 422 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,766 and we expect them to risk their lives for us, 423 00:15:19,766 --> 00:15:23,600 but we pay them nominal types of compensation. 424 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,433 While sports entertainment, 425 00:15:25,433 --> 00:15:28,833 if you can throw a fastball, throw a football, 426 00:15:28,833 --> 00:15:30,200 dunk a basketball-- 427 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,633 - Or you look like Brad Pitt. 428 00:15:31,633 --> 00:15:36,066 - You are extremely compensated to the most perverted way. 429 00:15:36,066 --> 00:15:37,066 - Right. 430 00:15:37,066 --> 00:15:39,700 - And we do get what we pay for. 431 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:40,966 We get what we pay for. 432 00:15:40,966 --> 00:15:42,200 - So this is out of balance, you think. 433 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,400 - Yes, not just policing and fire departments, 434 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,033 but teachers as well. 435 00:15:46,033 --> 00:15:49,533 We need to think about compensating 436 00:15:49,533 --> 00:15:52,666 the foundations of our society. 437 00:15:52,666 --> 00:15:54,466 How we teach our young people, 438 00:15:54,466 --> 00:15:56,400 how we protect ourselves, 439 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,700 need to be compensated. 440 00:15:57,700 --> 00:15:59,400 We need to pay our cops, pay our firefighters, 441 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,033 pay our teachers much more money than we do. 442 00:16:01,033 --> 00:16:02,500 - Why'd you wanna be a cop? 443 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:04,266 You've said it a couple times, as we know from the book, 444 00:16:04,266 --> 00:16:06,833 that you dropped out of college 445 00:16:06,833 --> 00:16:08,033 to go be a cop. 446 00:16:08,033 --> 00:16:09,800 - Yes, I was a senior in 1983 447 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,000 when the crack cocaine epidemic hit my neighborhood, 448 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,433 hit all inner cities, 449 00:16:13,433 --> 00:16:14,700 I grew up poor. - You're living in Oak Cliff. 450 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,266 - Oak Cliff in Dallas, a neighborhood in Dallas. 451 00:16:16,266 --> 00:16:18,700 - You grew up mostly in Dallas and so you saw 452 00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:21,400 your community, the community you grew up in, 453 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,233 suffering from this drug epidemic. 454 00:16:25,633 --> 00:16:27,066 And you said, "I gotta come home and do something about it." 455 00:16:27,066 --> 00:16:29,133 - Yes, I gotta come home. 456 00:16:29,133 --> 00:16:31,700 My dad and mom broke the news to him, 457 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:33,433 my dad was very frustrated with the decision. 458 00:16:33,433 --> 00:16:34,800 - I was so fascinated by this. 459 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,600 This is an early actor in the book. 460 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,700 Your dad says to you, "Why do you wanna be a cop?" 461 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,233 His exact quote was, "Cops mistreat people 462 00:16:42,233 --> 00:16:43,800 "in the community." - Yes. 463 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,300 - This is 1982, 83, this is 30 x years ago. 464 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:48,700 Your dad says this to you. 465 00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:50,100 It's the same conversation that probably dads 466 00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:51,333 are having with kids who decide 467 00:16:51,333 --> 00:16:53,066 to be cops today. - Today, yes. 468 00:16:53,066 --> 00:16:54,366 - Right, it's the exact same conversation. 469 00:16:54,366 --> 00:16:55,566 - Yes, it is. 470 00:16:55,566 --> 00:16:57,166 And my dad grew up, he's born 1940. 471 00:16:57,166 --> 00:16:59,366 He grew up in the Jim Crow South segregation. 472 00:16:59,366 --> 00:17:02,266 He was probably more likely than not, 473 00:17:02,266 --> 00:17:06,133 not respected by police during that timeframe. 474 00:17:06,133 --> 00:17:07,366 - That's his frame of reference. 475 00:17:07,366 --> 00:17:09,366 - That's his world view. 476 00:17:09,366 --> 00:17:10,666 But I'm stubborn. 477 00:17:10,666 --> 00:17:12,266 I'm stubborn. 478 00:17:12,266 --> 00:17:14,166 I'm worried about their safety livin' in the neighborhood, 479 00:17:14,166 --> 00:17:16,033 while the crack cocaine epidemic is increasingly 480 00:17:16,033 --> 00:17:17,100 more violent. 481 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,000 I can't concentrate at school anyway. 482 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,400 And so I go down and put an application in. 483 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,300 And I don't take no for an answer. 484 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:30,233 They hired me, and my first beat was my own neighborhood. 485 00:17:30,233 --> 00:17:32,366 - And you were always a boy scout. 486 00:17:32,366 --> 00:17:34,133 In essence, not a literal boy scout, but you know, 487 00:17:34,133 --> 00:17:35,800 as we now know that term to mean, 488 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,233 growing up as a kid. 489 00:17:37,233 --> 00:17:38,966 - I earned these nerdy glasses right here, yeah, yeah. 490 00:17:38,966 --> 00:17:40,233 (audience laughter) 491 00:17:40,233 --> 00:17:41,266 - Let me say, here we go, right here! 492 00:17:41,266 --> 00:17:44,200 (Chief laughs) 493 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,133 You were always on the right side of things, 494 00:17:47,133 --> 00:17:48,566 you played sports, 495 00:17:48,566 --> 00:17:50,700 you tried to stay on the right side of the line, right? 496 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,300 I'm interested in an anecdote where 497 00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:55,000 somebody gives you a joint. 498 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,500 I think this was in San Francisco. 499 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:58,766 - It was in San Francisco. 500 00:17:58,766 --> 00:18:00,766 - Somebody gives you a joint and you try a joint 501 00:18:00,766 --> 00:18:02,600 for the first time. 502 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,233 And then you decided, "Okay, I don't like this," 503 00:18:04,233 --> 00:18:06,300 and then the opportunity comes up later, 504 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:08,300 and you say, "Thank God, 505 00:18:10,666 --> 00:18:12,366 "if I had made the wrong choice, my whole life 506 00:18:12,366 --> 00:18:13,866 "would have been different." 507 00:18:13,866 --> 00:18:15,266 - I wouldn't have been able to be hired as a police officer 508 00:18:15,266 --> 00:18:17,766 if I was a drug user. 509 00:18:17,766 --> 00:18:21,033 I'm 13 years old when I make this choice. 510 00:18:21,033 --> 00:18:25,200 But for a few years later, that being a crack pipe 511 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,100 was the first experimentation is addiction for a lifetime. 512 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:31,833 I always said but for the grace of God, go I-- 513 00:18:31,833 --> 00:18:33,100 - It's a different story. 514 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:34,600 Well, and even then, I wanna get to this. 515 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:35,433 So 516 00:18:35,433 --> 00:18:36,900 your son 517 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:37,733 dies, 518 00:18:38,833 --> 00:18:41,966 and you take pills to sleep. - Yup. 519 00:18:41,966 --> 00:18:44,500 - And then you think about continuing to take pills 520 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,333 to help you with your grief and your sleep 521 00:18:47,333 --> 00:18:49,933 and everything else, and you look at the pills and you say, 522 00:18:49,933 --> 00:18:51,333 "If I take pills the second time, 523 00:18:51,333 --> 00:18:53,000 "I'm gonna take them everyday," 524 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000 and you push the pills aside. 525 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,566 Because you have such extraordinary discipline 526 00:18:57,566 --> 00:18:59,733 and so much of what's in this book is you 527 00:18:59,733 --> 00:19:02,366 having this ongoing conversation with yourself 528 00:19:02,366 --> 00:19:04,733 about who do I wanna be, how do I wanna be, 529 00:19:04,733 --> 00:19:06,433 how do I want my life constructed 530 00:19:06,433 --> 00:19:10,333 and pushing all the things that could derail you off. 531 00:19:10,333 --> 00:19:12,500 - When I was in kindergarten, my mother saw this in me. 532 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:14,800 She called me a old soul. (audience laughs softly) 533 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,033 A old soul. 534 00:19:16,033 --> 00:19:19,766 I loved being around my great grandmother. 535 00:19:19,766 --> 00:19:20,633 - Mabel. 536 00:19:20,633 --> 00:19:22,166 - Yes, Mabel Henderson. 537 00:19:22,166 --> 00:19:24,833 I love being around older people 20 years, 30 years 538 00:19:24,833 --> 00:19:26,333 older than me. 539 00:19:26,333 --> 00:19:28,500 My whole life, I've never liked the same kind of music 540 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:29,966 my peers liked. 541 00:19:29,966 --> 00:19:32,400 I've always liked the music my parents listened to. 542 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,000 My mother just consistently called me a old soul. 543 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,566 And that caused me to be more reflective. 544 00:19:37,566 --> 00:19:39,633 That nature I have caused me to be a bit more reflective 545 00:19:39,633 --> 00:19:41,133 in decision making. 546 00:19:41,133 --> 00:19:43,366 - Now, Chief, you know that at the time that this incident 547 00:19:43,366 --> 00:19:46,400 in Dallas happened on July 7th, this horrible day, 548 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:47,666 we came to learn things. 549 00:19:47,666 --> 00:19:48,766 As you say you're a private person. 550 00:19:48,766 --> 00:19:50,200 - [Chief] Yes. 551 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,733 - We came to learn things about you that we did not know. 552 00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:56,900 Your brother died, your son died, your first partner died. 553 00:19:58,033 --> 00:20:00,633 You actually have had to personally deal 554 00:20:00,633 --> 00:20:03,966 with an extraordinary high number of terrible things 555 00:20:03,966 --> 00:20:05,366 in your own life. 556 00:20:07,133 --> 00:20:08,533 How have you dealt with that? 557 00:20:08,533 --> 00:20:09,700 How do you deal with it? 558 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:10,900 And in some ways, 559 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,833 did it better prepare you for this last 560 00:20:13,833 --> 00:20:15,400 trip around the track as chief, 561 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,000 this horrible day in the aftermath of it? 562 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,000 - Only upon reflection does it make sense 563 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,766 that this was preparing me to deal with five officers 564 00:20:21,766 --> 00:20:24,933 being killed and to speak to an officer, 565 00:20:24,933 --> 00:20:28,366 department and speak to the country in a calm voice 566 00:20:28,366 --> 00:20:30,500 and bring people together and divide. 567 00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:32,933 While I was going through all of that tragedy, 568 00:20:32,933 --> 00:20:34,533 it made no sense to me. 569 00:20:34,533 --> 00:20:35,933 Actually, the first tragic moment 570 00:20:35,933 --> 00:20:38,600 was my first police partner who was killed 571 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:39,900 in the line of duty. 572 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:41,300 I wanted to quit the department, 573 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:43,166 I wanted to quit my faith, I'm a Christian, 574 00:20:43,166 --> 00:20:45,200 not same with the gospel, I wanted to quit, 575 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,400 and I went to a prayer meeting to confront God 576 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,666 about why bad things happen to good people, 577 00:20:49,666 --> 00:20:51,333 and to say so long. 578 00:20:51,333 --> 00:20:53,600 That this faith is not worthwhile. 579 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:54,433 And 580 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,066 this prayer meeting was a small group of women mostly. 581 00:20:58,066 --> 00:21:00,666 And they prayed for me 582 00:21:00,666 --> 00:21:03,300 and kept me in my faith, 583 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:05,166 kept me on the job. 584 00:21:05,166 --> 00:21:06,433 It's the only reason why I'm here today 585 00:21:06,433 --> 00:21:08,966 is because of God's good grace (mumbles). 586 00:21:08,966 --> 00:21:10,833 It's the only reason why I was able to go through 587 00:21:10,833 --> 00:21:12,966 tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. 588 00:21:12,966 --> 00:21:15,833 And when the most tragic things happens to other people, 589 00:21:15,833 --> 00:21:19,700 I'm able to rise to the occasion only through my faith. 590 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,233 - Your brother was killed by-- 591 00:21:21,233 --> 00:21:22,266 - Drug dealers. - Drug dealers. 592 00:21:22,266 --> 00:21:23,600 - Yes. 593 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,166 - Your son had behavioral health issues. 594 00:21:25,166 --> 00:21:26,166 - Bi-polar. 595 00:21:26,166 --> 00:21:27,266 - He killed-- 596 00:21:29,433 --> 00:21:31,466 - A police officer in a suburban city, 597 00:21:31,466 --> 00:21:32,933 and was subsequently killed. 598 00:21:32,933 --> 00:21:34,166 - And then he was killed by police. 599 00:21:34,166 --> 00:21:35,233 - Yes. 600 00:21:35,233 --> 00:21:36,600 He was 28 years old, 601 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,466 adult bi-polar, had no signs of bi-polar. 602 00:21:40,466 --> 00:21:42,600 The only gun I had in the house was the gun 603 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,400 that the city issued me. 604 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,866 He had not been acclimated to guns. 605 00:21:45,866 --> 00:21:47,700 We didn't hunt or anything like that 606 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:49,266 so he had not been interested. 607 00:21:49,266 --> 00:21:52,133 Adult bi-polar, untreated, and this episode happened. 608 00:21:52,133 --> 00:21:54,266 - And so in some ways I kinda bring this forward 609 00:21:54,266 --> 00:21:57,733 to Micah Johnson and the events of July 7th 610 00:21:57,733 --> 00:21:59,800 because he also had serious behavioral, 611 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,166 I mean, clearly, he had serious behavioral health issues. 612 00:22:03,166 --> 00:22:06,266 And I wonder if from your own experience, 613 00:22:06,266 --> 00:22:09,000 with a son, an adult son who tragically died 614 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,100 but who had these behavioral health issues, 615 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:13,266 may be similar in some respects to Micah Johnson. 616 00:22:13,266 --> 00:22:17,133 If that gave you a different way to think about 617 00:22:17,133 --> 00:22:19,900 that day in the moment and the ultimate way 618 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:22,333 to resolve the situation. 619 00:22:22,333 --> 00:22:25,800 - I had been developed through tragedy and empathy 620 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,533 that's just hard to explain for people. 621 00:22:27,533 --> 00:22:28,933 It's beyond empathy. 622 00:22:28,933 --> 00:22:33,333 I can really see a kid struggling with mental health 623 00:22:33,333 --> 00:22:37,133 or drug addiction differently and appreciate 624 00:22:37,133 --> 00:22:39,133 that person needs services. 625 00:22:39,133 --> 00:22:41,633 Or before my tragedy, I would have said, 626 00:22:41,633 --> 00:22:42,733 that's somebody else's problem. 627 00:22:42,733 --> 00:22:45,300 I would have had sympathy, maybe. 628 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:48,266 But not as if it's something I need to do 629 00:22:48,266 --> 00:22:49,833 to help resolve that. 630 00:22:49,833 --> 00:22:51,100 - Do you think the police forces around this country 631 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,933 generally speaking, have adequate training 632 00:22:53,933 --> 00:22:56,300 in dealing with people with behavioral health? 633 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:58,933 Because of course many people who are involved in 634 00:22:58,933 --> 00:23:00,633 criminal activity are not people 635 00:23:00,633 --> 00:23:03,766 with behavioral health issues but a great number are. 636 00:23:03,766 --> 00:23:05,733 Right, and in some ways having that frame of reference 637 00:23:05,733 --> 00:23:08,333 for that maybe as a better strategy. 638 00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:11,333 - Our prisons in many parts of this country 639 00:23:11,333 --> 00:23:12,700 are our largest mental health providers. 640 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:14,300 - They're effectively psych wards, right? 641 00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:15,600 - Yes, they are. 642 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,966 Up to a third. 643 00:23:16,966 --> 00:23:21,066 Up to a third are mental health providing issues 644 00:23:21,066 --> 00:23:24,333 that police cannot resolve with handcuffs. 645 00:23:24,333 --> 00:23:26,566 You can't arrest your way out of mental health, 646 00:23:26,566 --> 00:23:28,433 poor mental health policies and funding. 647 00:23:28,433 --> 00:23:29,400 You can't. 648 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,833 It's impossible to have-- 649 00:23:30,833 --> 00:23:33,400 The cops, the burden of police officers in this country 650 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,133 is way too much. 651 00:23:35,133 --> 00:23:37,900 - Do you make this case to elected officials? 652 00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:39,333 - I do. 653 00:23:39,333 --> 00:23:40,166 - You're no longer the chief, you retired as chief 654 00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:41,566 in October of 2016. 655 00:23:41,566 --> 00:23:43,433 You're now essentially on the circuit. 656 00:23:43,433 --> 00:23:45,666 By which I mean in part, you're advocating for a lot 657 00:23:45,666 --> 00:23:46,700 of these issues we're talking about. 658 00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:48,033 - I serve on the board 659 00:23:48,033 --> 00:23:50,066 of mental health institute. - Out of Dallas. 660 00:23:50,066 --> 00:23:51,300 - Yes, out of Dallas. 661 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:52,666 And we advocated at the legislature this year 662 00:23:52,666 --> 00:23:54,266 and got the funding that we asked for, 663 00:23:54,266 --> 00:23:55,900 thank you Governor Abbott for signing that! 664 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,433 - To argue that 665 00:23:57,433 --> 00:23:58,733 when you think about 666 00:23:58,733 --> 00:24:01,200 the criminal justice portfolio of issues, 667 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,833 you've got to put mental health in there, 668 00:24:02,833 --> 00:24:04,533 if not at the very top. - Yes. 669 00:24:04,533 --> 00:24:05,700 - Because these are issues, 670 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,166 they're related, unbelievably related. 671 00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:10,500 - And it's intersected with 672 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:11,433 drug abuse. 673 00:24:13,833 --> 00:24:17,066 People who are addicted to drugs often are self-medicating 674 00:24:17,066 --> 00:24:18,500 a mental illness. 675 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,500 Just go to a mental health facility and try to get medicine. 676 00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:24,700 It's embarrassing, 677 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:26,900 what we've put out there to help people. 678 00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:28,400 - So, Chief, we have a minute left. 679 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,200 So you retired as Police Chief in October of 2016. 680 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,900 You thought this was the moment for you to depart 681 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:34,333 after 33 years on the force and six years as Chief. 682 00:24:34,333 --> 00:24:35,566 And so you're now out in the world. 683 00:24:35,566 --> 00:24:37,566 You have any thoughts that you wanna get back 684 00:24:37,566 --> 00:24:39,066 into the public space in any way? 685 00:24:39,066 --> 00:24:40,300 Because the bet, 686 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:42,133 as you said yourself in the very beginning, 687 00:24:42,133 --> 00:24:43,466 at the end of the day, 688 00:24:43,466 --> 00:24:46,366 you have to be the change. - Yes. 689 00:24:46,366 --> 00:24:49,333 - So where are you in this conversation going forward? 690 00:24:49,333 --> 00:24:51,233 - Well, I've been asked this question before, 691 00:24:51,233 --> 00:24:53,800 "Are you considering politics?" 692 00:24:54,833 --> 00:24:56,233 Here's my answer. 693 00:24:56,233 --> 00:24:58,233 "I don't know if politics will consider me." 694 00:24:58,233 --> 00:24:59,166 And here's why I say that. 695 00:24:59,166 --> 00:25:00,300 - But you're not foreclosing. 696 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,066 - No, I'm just saying, 697 00:25:02,066 --> 00:25:03,833 if you give me a million dollars for my campaign, 698 00:25:03,833 --> 00:25:06,133 I may not vote the way you want me to vote. 699 00:25:06,133 --> 00:25:07,733 If a person in a different party says 700 00:25:07,733 --> 00:25:10,566 something I agree with, I'm gonna support them. 701 00:25:10,566 --> 00:25:11,833 So my partner would kick me out 702 00:25:11,833 --> 00:25:13,233 and I wouldn't have any money to run for office. 703 00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:14,233 (audience laughter) So it's not that 704 00:25:14,233 --> 00:25:16,100 what I consider politics. 705 00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:17,600 I don't know if politics will consider me. 706 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,166 - Right, what you just described is actually the antidote 707 00:25:20,166 --> 00:25:22,566 to the poison though. - Hmm. 708 00:25:22,566 --> 00:25:24,633 - Somebody who is willing to say, "I'm not gonna, 709 00:25:24,633 --> 00:25:27,600 "it's the country over party idea." 710 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,700 - Yes, sir. - So that might be you. 711 00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:31,400 - Okay, Evan, we gotta talk more after. 712 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,266 (audience laughter) - Okay, very good. 713 00:25:34,266 --> 00:25:37,533 Chief, TV likes nothing more than a cliffhanger. 714 00:25:37,533 --> 00:25:38,700 (Chief laughs) 715 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:39,933 I think we just provided one. 716 00:25:39,933 --> 00:25:41,466 Chief Brown, thank you so much for being here. 717 00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:43,466 Congratulations on your book, thank you for everything! 718 00:25:43,466 --> 00:25:47,100 (audience applause) 719 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:48,300 - [Announcer] We'd love to have you join us 720 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:49,533 in this studio. 721 00:25:49,533 --> 00:25:53,500 Visit our website at KLRU.org/Overheard 722 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:57,000 to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience, 723 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,733 and guests and an archive of past episodes. 724 00:26:00,733 --> 00:26:03,433 - When we journey the mass incarceration issue 725 00:26:03,433 --> 00:26:05,866 back in the 80s and 90s in that war on drugs, 726 00:26:05,866 --> 00:26:07,800 our crime rates were 727 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,266 10 times as high as they are now. 728 00:26:10,266 --> 00:26:13,666 And we're actually much safer when we can 729 00:26:14,533 --> 00:26:15,866 make distinctions between people 730 00:26:15,866 --> 00:26:19,333 who need mental health care, drug treatment, 731 00:26:19,333 --> 00:26:21,766 to make their bed space for the violent people 732 00:26:21,766 --> 00:26:23,300 that need to be in jail. 733 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,600 - [Announcer] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 734 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,100 is provided in part by 735 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:29,500 the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation 736 00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:34,000 and Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy. 737 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,933 And by KLRU's Producers Circle, 738 00:26:36,933 --> 00:26:38,933 ensuring local programming that reflects 739 00:26:38,933 --> 00:26:40,600 the character and interests 740 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,933 of the Greater Austin, Texas community.