WEBVTT 00:01.466 --> 00:03.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 00:03.100 --> 00:07.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation 00:07.066 --> 00:11.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy 00:11.566 --> 00:16.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and by KLRU's Producer's Circle, ensuring local programming 00:16.033 --> 00:17.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that reflects the character and interests 00:17.900 --> 00:21.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the greater Austin, Texas community. 00:21.233 --> 00:23.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I'm Evan Smith, he's an award winning novelist, 00:23.300 --> 00:26.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% short-story writer, and academic who's 26 works of fiction 00:26.733 --> 00:30.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% over an amazing four decades include, World's End, 00:30.100 --> 00:32.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Tortilla Curtain, Tooth and Claw, Wild Child, 00:32.866 --> 00:35.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The Harder They Come, and The Road to Wellville. 00:35.333 --> 00:38.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% His latest, The Terranauts, has just been published. 00:38.333 --> 00:41.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's T. C. Boyle, this is Overheard. 00:42.300 --> 00:43.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Let's be honest, is this about 00:43.866 --> 00:46.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the ability to learn or is this about the experience 00:46.566 --> 00:48.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of not having been taught properly? 00:48.300 --> 00:50.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% How have you avoided what has befallen 00:50.433 --> 00:52.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% other nations in Africa? 00:52.066 --> 00:53.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You could say that he made his own bed, 00:53.366 --> 00:55.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but you caused him to sleep in it. 00:55.333 --> 00:58.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You saw a problem and, over time, took it on. 00:58.633 --> 01:01.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. 01:01.900 --> 01:03.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Are you gonna run for president? 01:03.066 --> 01:05.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I think I just got an -F. 01:05.000 --> 01:07.433 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (applauding) 01:10.700 --> 01:11.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% T. C. Boyle, welcome. 01:11.933 --> 01:12.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - My pleasure. 01:12.866 --> 01:14.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Congratulations on the book. 01:14.000 --> 01:15.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Thank you so much. 01:15.233 --> 01:17.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I publish books all the time, every year, 01:17.166 --> 01:19.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I go out on the road and every once in a while 01:19.200 --> 01:20.800 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% somebody says, congratulations, 01:20.800 --> 01:22.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and I'm wondering, for what? 01:22.733 --> 01:24.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's like going to war when you publish a book. 01:24.766 --> 01:28.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - No, it's like giving birth, here it is. 01:28.466 --> 01:29.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% It was long awaited. 01:29.933 --> 01:31.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% No, no, the thing about this book that I thought was 01:31.466 --> 01:34.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% especially great was it took me back, truly took me back 01:34.133 --> 01:36.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% to the mid and early 90s, you know. 01:36.366 --> 01:40.266 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% This is a novel based on real events. 01:40.266 --> 01:43.133 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% It's based on the experience of Biosphere, 01:43.133 --> 01:46.800 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% Biosphere 2 in Arizona in the early 90s. 01:46.800 --> 01:49.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You have really drawn a picture that is similar to, 01:49.966 --> 01:52.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but, in so many ways, different from the real thing. 01:52.066 --> 01:53.500 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Well, thank you. 01:53.500 --> 01:56.500 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% When the Biosphere 2 experiment first happened in 01:56.500 --> 02:00.666 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% 91 through 93 northeast of Tucson, I was fascinated by this. 02:02.066 --> 02:04.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Like most of the public, I clipped out all the articles. 02:04.133 --> 02:06.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I thought, this is right up my alley because 02:06.500 --> 02:09.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% as you know, Evan, I often write about ecological concerns. 02:09.800 --> 02:14.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% For those who don't know, a friendly Texas billionaire-- 02:14.133 --> 02:15.600 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Ed Bass. 02:15.600 --> 02:19.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Ed Bass put up the money to create a new world. 02:21.466 --> 02:25.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 3.15 acres, 3800 species of plants and insects, 02:26.833 --> 02:30.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% four men, four women, to be sealed inside for two years. 02:30.666 --> 02:34.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% This was the first closure of a projected 50 02:34.100 --> 02:36.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% so this would go on for 100 years. 02:36.066 --> 02:39.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The whole point is, NASA is still after this, by the way, 02:39.266 --> 02:43.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is could we create another biosphere, other than the one 02:43.166 --> 02:45.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we live in here, in the event that this one 02:45.900 --> 02:47.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% should collapse, which it sure looks like 02:47.800 --> 02:49.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it's happening right now-- - Honestly, 02:49.166 --> 02:50.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it's about 50/50 isn't it? 02:50.466 --> 02:52.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Exactly, or a Mars colony, or whatever. 02:52.700 --> 02:55.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And the idea was that they would be observed as a 02:55.333 --> 02:58.933 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% laboratory experiment or a laboratory environment all along. 02:58.933 --> 03:01.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Yeah, they were famous. 03:01.733 --> 03:04.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They were aping the astronauts of NASA. 03:04.466 --> 03:07.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Now, NASA was congenial with them but this was 03:07.666 --> 03:10.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a private enterprise, a tremendous chutzpah. 03:10.300 --> 03:13.100 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I mean, build a new world? 03:13.100 --> 03:18.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Also, what the fun of it for me is they had hundreds of 03:18.066 --> 03:22.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% scientists helping to build this thing. 03:22.066 --> 03:25.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I would think they would put in maybe just one biome. 03:25.166 --> 03:27.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They did take a section from a Florida Everglades, 03:27.266 --> 03:29.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% for instance, for their marsh. 03:29.366 --> 03:31.533 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Instead, they had five biomes. 03:31.533 --> 03:34.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You had savanna, you had desert, you had marsh-- 03:34.133 --> 03:34.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - And ocean. 03:34.966 --> 03:36.133 align:left position:40%,start line:89% size:50% - Ocean. 03:36.133 --> 03:39.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Which with tropical fish, and so on. 03:39.733 --> 03:42.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It was kind of a mix and match world that they created 03:42.066 --> 03:44.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and they had galagos in there. 03:44.300 --> 03:47.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% These are the bush babies from Africa, these prosimians, 03:47.833 --> 03:50.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% very cute, this big, they, climbing through the trees 03:50.600 --> 03:52.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% in the rainforest that they built. 03:52.933 --> 03:54.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Why'd they put them in there? 03:54.133 --> 03:55.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% For fun, for fun. 03:57.666 --> 04:01.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% A fascinating thing is, if it had go on 100 years, 04:01.233 --> 04:03.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% by the way, it didn't, the friendly billionaire 04:03.266 --> 04:05.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% got into a fight with the friendly creator 04:05.166 --> 04:07.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and bailed out six months into the second-- 04:07.333 --> 04:10.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Second time, it always happens. 04:10.300 --> 04:12.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% We have big aspirations and then it ends up not happening. 04:12.700 --> 04:15.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Anyway, if it had happened for 100 years, okay, 04:15.700 --> 04:18.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% successively every two years they put in a new crew, 04:18.166 --> 04:21.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but, imagine what that world would be like. 04:21.266 --> 04:23.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There are so many unforeseen consequences 04:23.633 --> 04:25.266 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% when you try to be God. 04:25.266 --> 04:27.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% For instance, it took them a year and a half to 04:27.233 --> 04:29.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% build it and enclose it, and in that time, 04:29.966 --> 04:33.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% some invasive species came in, some volunteers. 04:33.266 --> 04:36.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They put in three species of cockroach because they're 04:36.900 --> 04:39.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% essential detritivores to this world. 04:39.500 --> 04:42.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But, the cockroach that some unfortunate people 04:42.200 --> 04:44.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% watching this see under the bathroom sink, 04:44.466 --> 04:46.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that one got in, too, and, of course, took right over. 04:46.833 --> 04:49.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right, I mean, the law of unforeseen consequences 04:49.800 --> 04:53.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is in effect here, and sort of the arrogance of assuming, 04:53.600 --> 04:55.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you used to describe it as playing God, 04:55.333 --> 04:57.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they were literally in this case. 04:57.100 --> 04:59.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That's often used not literally. 04:59.000 --> 05:01.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% This is literally creating a world, right? 05:01.600 --> 05:03.033 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% Playing God. 05:03.033 --> 05:03.866 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Exactly. 05:05.333 --> 05:08.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I also thought, what if we had 10 friendly billionaires 05:08.400 --> 05:09.333 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and we built 10 of these-- 05:09.333 --> 05:10.600 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - 10 different ones at the 05:10.600 --> 05:11.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% same time? - Yeah, and they could be 05:11.800 --> 05:13.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a mile apart, and they could even try put 05:13.400 --> 05:15.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the same suite of creatures in each one. 05:15.400 --> 05:19.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% After 100 years it be a totally different world. 05:19.000 --> 05:21.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They were criticized because it's not real science. 05:21.200 --> 05:23.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Science, you have a theory and you test it. 05:23.733 --> 05:25.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% This was more theatrical. 05:25.433 --> 05:27.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It was more like, hey, kids, 05:28.933 --> 05:30.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% [Both] let's put on a show. (laughing) 05:30.333 --> 05:32.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And to the point of being theatrical, 05:32.366 --> 05:34.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it really was as much entertainment as it was science 05:34.533 --> 05:36.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in that you also had these eight personalities 05:36.900 --> 05:39.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who were placed in this experience. 05:39.833 --> 05:42.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Honestly, this was the first reality show. 05:42.366 --> 05:45.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% As I'm reading this book, I'm reminded that this is 05:45.833 --> 05:48.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% really a reality show that was a precursor 05:48.366 --> 05:50.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to everything that's come. 05:50.033 --> 05:51.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - It remains, by the way, a tourist attraction. 05:51.800 --> 05:53.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You can go there, I've been there. 05:53.300 --> 05:55.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They'll take you through it, it's just not closed. 05:55.800 --> 05:58.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Absolutely, again, these people were on the front page 05:58.766 --> 06:02.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of all the newspapers, and magazines, and everything else. 06:02.133 --> 06:05.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Everything they did, behind the glass wall were tourists 06:05.200 --> 06:07.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who paid to come and see them-- 06:07.233 --> 06:08.466 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - And gawk. 06:08.466 --> 06:10.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And gawk, while they were slopping pigs and-- 06:10.233 --> 06:12.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - The book you've written, instead of Biosphere 2, 06:12.866 --> 06:15.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it's Ecosphere 2, it's E2. 06:15.433 --> 06:18.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You have eight people, as was the case back then, 06:18.133 --> 06:22.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% they're all white, in fact, the women are all blonde, right? 06:23.800 --> 06:25.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And to think, again, let's just go back for a moment 06:25.533 --> 06:27.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to when this really occurred. 06:27.200 --> 06:29.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Could you imagine getting away with this kind of 06:29.233 --> 06:33.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a public experiment where the participants are all white? 06:33.466 --> 06:36.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Today, I mean, this would be a protest, 06:36.400 --> 06:38.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you'd have this whole cry, right I mean, this is a very 06:38.533 --> 06:39.800 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% different world. - This is part 06:39.800 --> 06:41.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of why I'm setting this in the past. 06:41.333 --> 06:44.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% To examine that and see what those ironies are all about. 06:44.233 --> 06:45.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Also, pre-technology. 06:45.933 --> 06:47.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, they didn't-- - no social media, 06:47.733 --> 06:49.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% no cellphones, none of that stuff. 06:49.633 --> 06:53.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - The beauty of this is I can take the original history, 06:53.166 --> 06:56.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% all the details I've just given you, or part of this. 06:56.600 --> 06:57.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% The Biosphere has wrote books. 06:57.900 --> 06:59.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% There's a whole history of this full of 06:59.966 --> 07:01.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% newspaper articles and so on. 07:01.400 --> 07:03.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - But, you had a wealth of material to draw on. 07:03.133 --> 07:06.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Of course, but then I can project a second closure, 07:06.400 --> 07:10.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and in mine, it's even more of a big brother sort of 07:10.166 --> 07:13.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% atmosphere, just for the fun of it, so they're not 07:13.466 --> 07:16.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% allowed to communicate with the outside world 07:16.066 --> 07:18.666 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% except at the visitor's window. 07:20.800 --> 07:22.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's like prison, you have a little phone 07:22.466 --> 07:23.866 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and there's the window. 07:23.866 --> 07:26.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They would give a handshake by putting 07:26.000 --> 07:28.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% their hands to the glass. 07:28.900 --> 07:31.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% And, of course, there's a little simulated sex 07:31.700 --> 07:33.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% going on, too, right at that window. 07:33.966 --> 07:38.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% In fact, I didn't realize how sexy this was going to be. 07:38.000 --> 07:40.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Four men, four women, locked inside-- 07:40.433 --> 07:41.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, how could you have imagined? 07:41.833 --> 07:43.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - What are they gonna do? (laughing) 07:43.333 --> 07:46.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - What could you have been thinking about? 07:46.466 --> 07:50.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What I love, as well, about the story is that it's told 07:50.233 --> 07:53.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in a series of alternating, or rotating, narratives. 07:53.100 --> 07:56.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Two of the participants of the eight, and one of the 07:56.433 --> 07:59.333 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% people who hoped to be a participant but was not chosen 07:59.333 --> 08:02.166 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% and then ends up working, essentially, on the outside 08:02.166 --> 08:04.366 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% with the hope of getting into a future one of these. 08:04.366 --> 08:06.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% They're the three narrators. 08:06.566 --> 08:08.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% One of the three, the man, Ramsay Roothoorp, 08:08.766 --> 08:10.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is actually kind of a horn-dog. 08:10.300 --> 08:12.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% That would be the technical phrase, is that right? 08:12.400 --> 08:13.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, that's the typical phrase. 08:13.633 --> 08:15.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - PBS friendly phrase, yeah, this is a guy 08:15.566 --> 08:17.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who is a bit of a sex-obsessive. 08:17.766 --> 08:21.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yes, so, you mention having that, or three narrators. 08:21.400 --> 08:22.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I've never done this before. 08:22.866 --> 08:24.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I'm always trying to do something new at every book. 08:24.733 --> 08:25.900 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Right, mix up the structure. 08:25.900 --> 08:27.133 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Mix up the structure. 08:27.133 --> 08:29.333 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% So, they talk to you, ultimately first person, 08:29.333 --> 08:31.500 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% right at you, so it becomes very intimate. 08:31.500 --> 08:34.066 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% And, of course, as in any group of people 08:34.066 --> 08:38.066 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% trying to get ahead, they have their conflicts. 08:38.066 --> 08:40.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The points of view might cover the same territory, 08:40.800 --> 08:42.400 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% but in a different way. 08:42.400 --> 08:44.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, it's got a little Rashomon quality to it, right, 08:44.200 --> 08:46.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% how you tell the story is how you see the story. 08:46.033 --> 08:50.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Exactly, exactly, so one of the ones who was excluded, 08:51.466 --> 08:53.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of the three narrators, we have Dawn Chapman, 08:53.433 --> 08:55.233 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% she is a very pretty blond. 08:55.233 --> 08:59.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Again, this is theater, so they want a good-looking woman 08:59.333 --> 09:01.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% who can look good in a swimsuit. 09:01.933 --> 09:04.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Then there's Ramsay Roothoorp, who you mentioned 09:04.233 --> 09:06.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% is the communications officer. 09:06.433 --> 09:09.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And the third narrator is a woman who's been excluded. 09:09.366 --> 09:11.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She was part of the sixteen, but wasn't chosen. 09:11.833 --> 09:14.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She's Korean, her name is Linda Ryu, and she is now 09:14.900 --> 09:17.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% promised that she'll get in the next time 09:17.466 --> 09:19.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% if she remains as support staff. 09:19.366 --> 09:21.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% All of these people, it's a kind of cult. 09:21.366 --> 09:24.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They want desperately to be in, and so they will do 09:24.666 --> 09:27.766 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% whatever mission control tells them to do. 09:27.766 --> 09:30.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Linda is a little bitter. (laughing) 09:30.366 --> 09:33.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I love the characters then, and I also love 09:33.200 --> 09:37.533 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% the concept that you've overlaid, you eluded to Ed Bass's 09:37.533 --> 09:39.000 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% involvement in the previous. 09:39.000 --> 09:42.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There is God, the creator, GC, and then there is 09:42.266 --> 09:47.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% God the financier, GF, who are themselves relevant 09:47.266 --> 09:49.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% players in this world that you've created. 09:49.733 --> 09:51.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Honestly, as you think about this, or as I think about 09:51.866 --> 09:55.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% this book, it's got elements of, as I said, reality shows, 09:55.033 --> 09:57.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but it also feels a little bit like 1984, it feels 09:57.233 --> 09:59.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a little bit like The Wizard of Oz. 09:59.466 --> 10:01.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% There's actually elements of stories that are 10:01.066 --> 10:02.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% very familiar to us that you've brought together in this 10:02.900 --> 10:05.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I think that it ends up being a very interesting 10:05.933 --> 10:07.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% story as you tell it, and I think people who have read 10:07.966 --> 10:10.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% your books in the past know that you're obsessed with 10:10.166 --> 10:13.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% sub-cultures and you're obsessed also with dominant 10:13.233 --> 10:16.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% institutions and individuals, whether it's a Kellogg, 10:16.700 --> 10:19.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% or Frank Lloyd Wright, or Kinsey, you know, 10:19.100 --> 10:20.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% people you've written about in the past. 10:20.566 --> 10:23.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You do well writing about that universe. 10:25.233 --> 10:29.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I don't trust, as an American who has done and said 10:29.000 --> 10:31.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% whatever he wants his entire life and has been able, 10:31.333 --> 10:34.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in this great country, to have a life as an artist, 10:34.866 --> 10:38.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I don't trust the domineering leader who says, 10:40.100 --> 10:42.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% whether it's in fundamentalist religion or in politics, 10:42.933 --> 10:47.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who says, give yourself over to me and I will guide you. 10:47.466 --> 10:49.066 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I alone can fix it. 10:49.066 --> 10:50.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% That phrase is running through my head. 10:50.966 --> 10:53.533 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Yeah, I wonder why. 10:53.533 --> 10:56.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - That's actually been a consistent through-line 10:56.300 --> 10:57.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in a number of your books. 10:57.833 --> 10:59.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Again, Evan, you don't know what your themes are 10:59.300 --> 11:00.566 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% when you start to write. 11:00.566 --> 11:02.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You can only see this in retrospect. 11:02.000 --> 11:05.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, yeah, I mean, I'm fascinated by cults and groups. 11:05.500 --> 11:09.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% A lot of you will remember my novel from 2003, 11:10.800 --> 11:14.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Drop City, which goes back to the Back-To-The-Earth movement 11:14.300 --> 11:16.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% of the late 60s, hippies. 11:17.833 --> 11:21.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The whole proposition was this wheel of capitalism 11:21.333 --> 11:24.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is destroying the world, can we get off it, and go back 11:24.133 --> 11:26.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to nature, and live simply. 11:26.133 --> 11:28.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Well, of course, we can't, there's seven billion of us. 11:28.533 --> 11:30.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - But, in some ways, these two books, Drop City 11:30.400 --> 11:32.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and this book, are actually married thematically. 11:32.800 --> 11:36.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I was amazed in going back to look over your career 11:36.566 --> 11:40.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that really the only one of your works of fiction, 11:40.233 --> 11:42.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% this is the 16th novel, there have also been 10 books 11:42.800 --> 11:44.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% of short-stories, the only thing that really has been 11:44.900 --> 11:48.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% translated into an entertainment vehicle that we would 11:48.500 --> 11:51.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% recognize or remember was The Road to Wellville. 11:51.066 --> 11:53.733 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% - Right, Anthony Hopkins, Bridget Fonda, Matthew Broderick, 11:53.733 --> 11:56.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Alan Parker, the great Alan Parker directed this film. 11:56.100 --> 11:57.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I love the movie, I love everything about it. 11:57.500 --> 12:01.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't participate in films because, well, 12:01.333 --> 12:05.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the artistic reason is I have to make my life's work, 12:05.100 --> 12:07.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% this is it, it's a distraction. 12:07.566 --> 12:09.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% There's another reason, too. 12:09.466 --> 12:12.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I couldn't imagine doing anything creative with 12:12.700 --> 12:15.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% somebody else's opinion involved. 12:15.100 --> 12:16.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, it's your book, but when it becomes a movie, 12:16.933 --> 12:19.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it really becomes theirs, right, I mean, you have to be able 12:19.200 --> 12:20.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to distance yourself from 12:20.300 --> 12:21.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that creative process. - I met Alan 12:21.833 --> 12:23.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% when he bought it and we had a dinner, and it was very nice. 12:23.066 --> 12:25.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I realized, I'm a fan of his, I love his work, 12:25.400 --> 12:28.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% he had made The Commitments just before this. 12:28.100 --> 12:31.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's exactly like me, he's pedal to the metal, 12:31.100 --> 12:35.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% this is his project, and I loved what he did. 12:35.166 --> 12:38.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The Terranauts, this is the first time this has happened, 12:38.266 --> 12:42.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% has been bought for TV by Warner Bros. and Jim Parsons, 12:44.066 --> 12:45.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% the actor, Jim Parsons-- 12:45.900 --> 12:47.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - They think they wanna make it into a series? 12:47.233 --> 12:48.733 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - They will make it into a series. 12:48.733 --> 12:50.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - See, I wondered about that because as I read this, 12:50.233 --> 12:54.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% actually, my thought was, it seemed like a play 12:54.000 --> 12:57.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% because the setting is effectively stationary, 12:57.400 --> 12:59.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% not literally stationary, but it's effectively stationary, 12:59.333 --> 13:01.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% it's sort of one setting. 13:01.066 --> 13:04.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I thought it lent itself almost to be 13:04.366 --> 13:05.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% made into a stage play. 13:05.933 --> 13:09.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - And don't forget, I'm also taking the reality of this 13:09.433 --> 13:12.700 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% in which they did, the Terranauts, where the Biosphere ends, 13:12.700 --> 13:16.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% did produce plays inside as a way of bonding, 13:16.033 --> 13:18.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and also to perform for people. 13:18.633 --> 13:21.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Further, since there are 50 2-year closures, 13:21.866 --> 13:24.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% if this show were to come and be successful, 13:24.900 --> 13:27.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% our great-grandchildren could be watching it still. 13:27.200 --> 13:28.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You know, anything could happen because you have 13:28.800 --> 13:30.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% eight new people going in each time. 13:30.666 --> 13:33.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, again, I come back to, I'm embarrassed to say, 13:33.333 --> 13:35.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the low-culture reference that came to mind 13:35.200 --> 13:38.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% reading this book was MTV's the Real World. 13:38.200 --> 13:40.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% In some ways where it's like a different cast of characters 13:40.366 --> 13:42.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% every season and a different location, I thought 13:42.400 --> 13:45.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's basically Biosphere 2 on MTV. 13:45.333 --> 13:48.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I have to confess that while I'm sitting here on TV 13:48.300 --> 13:51.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% with you, the amazing host of an amazing show, 13:51.900 --> 13:53.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I've never seen any reality TV-- 13:53.700 --> 13:54.666 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Is that right? 13:54.666 --> 13:55.733 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% God, good for you, oh my gosh. 13:55.733 --> 13:56.833 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 13:56.833 --> 13:58.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% On behalf of America, thank you. 13:58.633 --> 14:00.366 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% You're not part of the problem. 14:00.366 --> 14:04.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - As I say, I have inner resources, I know how to read. 14:04.200 --> 14:06.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I don't need reality TV, in fact, couldn't imagine 14:06.766 --> 14:08.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% watching one second of it-- 14:08.266 --> 14:11.766 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - What's remarkable is how you've gotten everything 14:11.766 --> 14:14.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% perfectly, instinctively, without actually having seen it. 14:14.733 --> 14:18.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I mentioned 16 novels and 10 works of short-fiction. 14:18.900 --> 14:21.500 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I wonder which you prefer. 14:21.500 --> 14:23.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Your novels are not, themselves, the extension of 14:23.866 --> 14:25.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the short-stories that you write. 14:25.333 --> 14:27.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You don't start out to write something in miniature 14:27.000 --> 14:28.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then make it into a full novel, 14:28.600 --> 14:31.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% so you really are picking, essentially, one or the other. 14:31.166 --> 14:33.833 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% Do you have a preference? 14:33.833 --> 14:36.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Each has its joys. 14:36.033 --> 14:38.166 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% The novel, you know what you're gonna do tomorrow 14:38.166 --> 14:41.433 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% when you wake up, however, you're locked into it, 14:41.433 --> 14:44.000 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% so whatever you should tell me, or my friends tell me, 14:44.000 --> 14:46.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or excites me that's happening technologically, 14:46.533 --> 14:48.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I can't write about. 14:48.033 --> 14:49.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% With a story, it's the opposite. 14:49.566 --> 14:53.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Anything that occurs to you, you can just jam up a story. 14:53.666 --> 14:57.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% However, once the story's over, let's say it takes a month 14:57.066 --> 14:59.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% from the initial idea, two weeks of the writing, 14:59.400 --> 15:01.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% a week to polish, then you send it off, 15:01.900 --> 15:03.633 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% then you're completely bereft. 15:03.633 --> 15:05.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You don't know what you're gonna do tomorrow 15:05.066 --> 15:07.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and you have a period where you have no ideas 15:07.433 --> 15:11.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and you twirl that gun on your desk a lot, you know, 15:11.366 --> 15:13.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% to kinda stimulate yourself. 15:13.266 --> 15:16.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's very difficult, but I think one of the reasons 15:16.366 --> 15:18.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I've been so productive is I've been able to go from 15:18.833 --> 15:20.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% one form to the other, back and forth. 15:20.900 --> 15:22.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Well, in fact, you've already gone, as I understand it, 15:22.800 --> 15:26.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to your next creative output will be a book of stories. 15:28.133 --> 15:29.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, the book of stories for next year, 15:29.633 --> 15:31.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I delivered it earlier and I'm working on the research 15:31.500 --> 15:32.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% for the next novel. 15:32.933 --> 15:35.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I wanna go back to your origins as a writer. 15:35.300 --> 15:38.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The first thing you published was in fact a short-story, 15:38.066 --> 15:39.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% was it not? 15:39.533 --> 15:40.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yes, and my first book was a collection of stories. 15:40.833 --> 15:42.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Talk about that time. 15:42.033 --> 15:44.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You grew up in Peekskill, New York. 15:44.200 --> 15:47.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You went to college in the Suny system, an undergraduate, 15:47.400 --> 15:49.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and then you had a period of time when, 15:49.833 --> 15:52.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% as they say, you were younger and wilder, 15:52.100 --> 15:54.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% right, you had kind of a wild period. 15:54.300 --> 15:55.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% As a musician-- 15:55.233 --> 15:56.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Well, shucks, who doesn't? 15:56.466 --> 15:57.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, everybody had one, I'm not 15:57.700 --> 15:59.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% passing judgement, it's an observation. 15:59.600 --> 16:02.733 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% But, you eventually went on to the Iowa Writers' Workshop, 16:02.733 --> 16:06.466 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% got graduate degrees there, and the short-story 16:06.466 --> 16:08.566 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% that you first wrote and published was actually 16:08.566 --> 16:11.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% instrumental to pointing you on that path, was it not? 16:11.200 --> 16:12.700 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - It was. 16:12.700 --> 16:15.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, I was very lucky early on to get a story published. 16:15.533 --> 16:18.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And then that gave me the confidence to apply to 16:18.966 --> 16:21.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the only graduate program I had ever heard of, 16:21.166 --> 16:22.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the Iowa Writers' Workshop, where all 16:22.433 --> 16:24.933 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% my heroes had gone, or taught. 16:26.333 --> 16:28.133 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% By the grace of God, they accepted me, 16:28.133 --> 16:30.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and I also did my PhD there. 16:30.066 --> 16:31.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - John Cheever was a professor of yours. 16:31.700 --> 16:34.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - John Cheever, John Irving, and Vance Bourjaily, 16:34.933 --> 16:37.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% who had been John Irving's teacher in the Workshop. 16:37.266 --> 16:40.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's like the very best possible people 16:40.000 --> 16:41.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you could learn from, right? 16:41.466 --> 16:44.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yes, Evan, but as you know, when you're an artist, 16:44.266 --> 16:49.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% whether it's in music, or in the literary arts, or painting, 16:49.100 --> 16:50.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% you already know how to do it. 16:50.866 --> 16:55.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% What you need is a guide or coach to say, alright, kid, 16:55.000 --> 16:56.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you're on the right track, which is essentially what 16:56.800 --> 16:59.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% all three did for me, very generously. 16:59.633 --> 17:04.100 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But really, no one can teach you how to do it. 17:04.100 --> 17:07.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% No one really offered suggestions, 17:07.266 --> 17:10.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they just read it and encouraged me. 17:10.900 --> 17:13.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You've gotten better over time in your own mind, right? 17:13.066 --> 17:16.200 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The T. C. Boyle of those days in Iowa, who thought he knew 17:16.200 --> 17:20.000 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% a lot and thought he could do a lot, learned over time 17:20.000 --> 17:21.800 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% what more he could do and what was 17:21.800 --> 17:23.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% right and wrong with his work. 17:23.300 --> 17:24.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - I think you grow. 17:24.466 --> 17:26.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% You grow as an artist if you're lucky. 17:26.500 --> 17:30.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And I have no restrictions, I write in any mode 17:31.333 --> 17:33.166 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that occurs to me. 17:33.166 --> 17:37.633 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I think that allows me to be very productive. 17:37.633 --> 17:39.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% When I first began writing, in my first 17:39.966 --> 17:42.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% collection of stories, I was much more interested in 17:42.666 --> 17:45.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% humor, design, and language than in character. 17:45.500 --> 17:47.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I didn't really have much by way of 17:47.333 --> 17:49.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% character in the stories. 17:49.033 --> 17:50.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% My wife would always say, well, you know, 17:50.866 --> 17:53.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% your women characters are really flat, and I would counter 17:53.166 --> 17:55.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% by saying, yeah, well, so are my men. (laughing) 17:55.533 --> 17:57.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Yeah, there's an equal opportunity. 17:57.933 --> 18:00.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Then I wrote, Water Music, my first novel. 18:00.166 --> 18:03.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You can't write a novel without creating great characters. 18:03.266 --> 18:04.966 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% That taught me something. 18:04.966 --> 18:06.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Cheever taught me something, too, in this, 18:06.933 --> 18:09.666 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when I met him, he was sort of on the run, 18:09.666 --> 18:14.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% he was drinking a lot, and he seemed impossibly old to me. 18:14.366 --> 18:16.200 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% He was 62 at the time. 18:17.633 --> 18:20.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I had read his stories some years before but they were 18:20.266 --> 18:23.433 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% more in a conventional mode and I was an experimenter 18:23.433 --> 18:26.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and he was just this old guy, you know, who cared. 18:26.866 --> 18:29.933 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Then, he published his collective stories which I read, 18:29.933 --> 18:31.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% probably every decade, I read through that-- 18:31.400 --> 18:33.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - You've cited this as actually one of your favorite-- 18:33.500 --> 18:35.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - It's a touchstone for me. 18:35.433 --> 18:38.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And he taught me to expand in another direction, 18:38.966 --> 18:40.166 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% towards realism. 18:40.166 --> 18:42.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'd never been interested. 18:42.066 --> 18:45.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Also, at that time, Ray Carver was living in town 18:45.666 --> 18:47.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and I became friendly with him, and, of course, 18:47.266 --> 18:50.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I was under the spell of his magnificent fiction, which is 18:50.266 --> 18:54.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% primarily in a realistic mode, so I adopted that, too. 18:54.866 --> 18:59.000 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% I can go from a kind of folk-tales, or to surreal stories 18:59.000 --> 19:00.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% like the one that you've just mentioned 19:00.700 --> 19:02.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that's in the New Yorker this week. 19:02.600 --> 19:04.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% And the previous New Yorker story, three months ago, 19:04.466 --> 19:07.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The Fugitive, is straightforward realism, 19:07.533 --> 19:09.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and it's about something that's happening 19:09.533 --> 19:11.700 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% in Santa Barbara, where I live. 19:11.700 --> 19:15.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% A guy has multiple drug-resistant tuberculosis. 19:15.533 --> 19:19.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He's a transient, he didn't take his meds, 19:19.000 --> 19:23.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% so his body is a furnace for creating new strains of TB 19:23.400 --> 19:25.800 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% that will kill us all. 19:25.800 --> 19:27.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% He was being pursued as a criminal. 19:27.700 --> 19:29.766 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% He hadn't committed any crimes. 19:29.766 --> 19:31.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% What are the ethics of that? 19:31.300 --> 19:33.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Did it mean, do we have the right to lock somebody up 19:33.166 --> 19:34.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% who has not committed a crime because they're 19:34.900 --> 19:36.566 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% a threat to public health? 19:36.566 --> 19:38.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I wrote the story to kind of investigate that, 19:38.800 --> 19:43.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% but it's in the same book as Are We Not Men, 19:43.300 --> 19:45.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and another story that hasn't been published yet, 19:45.233 --> 19:49.400 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Warrior Jesus, about a cartoonist who creates a superhero. 19:52.533 --> 19:55.500 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's great that I can move from one to the other. 19:55.500 --> 19:57.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Where do these ideas for the short-stories 19:57.900 --> 20:00.600 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% or an idea like the, I mean, I think there's an obvious 20:00.600 --> 20:03.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% basis for this book, and I know that you've said 20:03.333 --> 20:07.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% previously that at the time that Biosphere 1 was going on, 20:07.233 --> 20:09.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and even Biosphere 2 was going on, you were thinking 20:09.166 --> 20:12.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to yourself, boy, I should write about this, right. 20:12.866 --> 20:15.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The idea for this actually goes back to the origin. 20:15.166 --> 20:18.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Right, but, like most of the public, I became 20:18.933 --> 20:22.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% disenchanted with this because the hook was 20:22.566 --> 20:24.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% absolute material closure. 20:24.166 --> 20:26.566 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% They had sealed that thing so that there was 20:26.566 --> 20:30.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% less transference of air from there to the outside world 20:30.666 --> 20:33.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% than even in the space shuttle. 20:33.200 --> 20:35.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% So this is exciting, they can't get out. 20:35.466 --> 20:37.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% In fact, it is true that with the real Biosphere 20:37.700 --> 20:41.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that somebody put your extra-large pepperoni pizza 20:41.266 --> 20:44.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% outside the airlock to see if they would open it. 20:44.400 --> 20:45.900 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Right, tempt them. 20:45.900 --> 20:49.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - So, 12 days in, and again, I have the real history, 20:49.166 --> 20:50.733 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% I can tell the story. 20:50.733 --> 20:55.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% One of the Biospherians cut the tip of her finger off-- 20:55.166 --> 20:58.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - She was working like a rice hulling machine. 20:58.900 --> 21:01.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - So, one of the eight, of course, has to be an MD, 21:01.166 --> 21:03.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% for obvious reasons, and he sewed it back together 21:03.700 --> 21:06.300 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and did his best, but it wasn't looking too good. 21:06.300 --> 21:08.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It was kinda looking like blood sausage, you know. 21:08.733 --> 21:11.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% So, she held her hand up to the window 21:11.033 --> 21:13.600 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and they got the best hand-man in Pima County 21:13.600 --> 21:14.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% to come and look at it, he said, you gotta come out 21:14.966 --> 21:17.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% of there or you're gonna lose that. 21:17.266 --> 21:20.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She came out into our world, 12-days into this, 21:20.400 --> 21:22.766 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% for five hours only. 21:22.766 --> 21:26.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% They even estimated how many lungs-full of our air 21:26.100 --> 21:30.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% she breathed rather than the inside the Biosphere. 21:30.166 --> 21:32.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% She went back in and she was carrying two bags with her, 21:32.566 --> 21:35.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% two shopping bags, that nobody knows what was in them. 21:35.333 --> 21:39.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% But, still, if it was Mars, they'd be dead. 21:39.433 --> 21:40.966 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% The public began to lose interest 21:40.966 --> 21:43.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because they broke closure. 21:43.066 --> 21:47.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% In my telling, of course, now I'm positing a second of 21:47.633 --> 21:51.466 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% 49 more closures, and this crew is determined, 21:52.900 --> 21:55.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% even if somebody should die inside, no matter what, 21:55.133 --> 21:57.700 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% they're not gonna break that, because that 21:57.700 --> 21:59.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% killed the deal the first time around. 21:59.433 --> 22:02.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% It's wonderful for me to have this real history 22:02.500 --> 22:03.933 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and then project. 22:03.933 --> 22:05.433 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% - In that respect, the real history is the impetus 22:05.433 --> 22:07.900 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% and it's also the, it's the basis, but I'm saying, 22:07.900 --> 22:09.400 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% in the case of other things you've written, 22:09.400 --> 22:13.233 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% or the short-stories, are you collecting ideas as you go? 22:13.233 --> 22:14.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Do you have a list of things that you wanna 22:14.966 --> 22:16.300 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% get to eventually-- 22:16.300 --> 22:17.533 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Right now-- 22:17.533 --> 22:19.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - I wanna understand the creative process. 22:19.033 --> 22:20.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Right now, already, just talking with you, Evan, 22:20.266 --> 22:22.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I have 20 new ideas, I gotta scribble them down 22:22.333 --> 22:24.266 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% when I go offstage. - I'm mortified. 22:24.266 --> 22:26.133 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I can't imagine what those are. 22:26.133 --> 22:28.200 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Lame talk-show host asks questions. 22:28.200 --> 22:29.233 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (laughing) 22:29.233 --> 22:30.733 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% That's a story. 22:30.733 --> 22:33.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% No, seriously, obviously, every author approaches 22:33.800 --> 22:35.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% these things differently, and I'm just interested in 22:35.533 --> 22:38.400 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% the creative process where you fit yourself 22:38.400 --> 22:39.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% into that. - It's a miracle, 22:39.933 --> 22:43.666 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% which is why I will do nothing but make fiction until I die. 22:43.666 --> 22:45.166 align:left position:20%,start line:5% size:70% It's a kind of miracle. 22:45.166 --> 22:48.133 align:left position:10%,start line:5% size:80% A musician can tell you this, a painter can tell you this. 22:48.133 --> 22:50.933 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% Once you open up the unconscious, and it's hard to do, 22:50.933 --> 22:52.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% you don't get there every day, you're in some 22:52.733 --> 22:56.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% other world and it makes itself, it just happens. 22:56.500 --> 22:59.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% My ideas come from many sources. 22:59.866 --> 23:02.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I write an awful lot about ecology and science, 23:02.666 --> 23:05.366 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% and the new technology, this, Are We Not Men 23:05.366 --> 23:10.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is about Crispr Cas 9 technology in which we are now able, 23:10.333 --> 23:15.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% quite quickly and easily, to make trans-genic creatures. 23:15.300 --> 23:16.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% Is this a good idea? 23:16.700 --> 23:19.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Well, I write a story to find out. 23:19.433 --> 23:23.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Sometimes I would write a story that is autobiographical 23:23.300 --> 23:26.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% in content, very rarely, but once in a while, why not. 23:26.733 --> 23:30.033 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So, that, all you have to do is find an incident 23:30.033 --> 23:32.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and try to see what it means. 23:32.300 --> 23:33.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - You read a lot of other people's stuff. 23:33.866 --> 23:35.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% You mentioned that you read Cheever, but, of course, 23:35.833 --> 23:39.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Cheever is another generation, or another era of stuff, 23:39.333 --> 23:40.933 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% you read a lot of contemporary fiction? 23:40.933 --> 23:43.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I do read some contemporary fiction and only when 23:43.633 --> 23:45.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I'm writing short-stories. 23:45.266 --> 23:47.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The problem with reading a novel when you're writing a novel 23:47.833 --> 23:50.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% is the voice will creep into your head. 23:50.166 --> 23:51.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% You don't want this. 23:51.600 --> 23:55.266 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The hardest thing with a book like this is the middle, 23:55.266 --> 23:59.633 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and sustaining the energy, and finding out where it's going. 23:59.633 --> 24:03.033 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% The voice has to remain consistent and I, 24:04.233 --> 24:05.700 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% distracted by the voice. 24:05.700 --> 24:08.166 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - In some ways, you can't break the lock, right? 24:08.166 --> 24:10.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It's comparable to this, you have to stay completely 24:10.366 --> 24:11.600 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% contained and sealed. 24:11.600 --> 24:13.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's like this, I have never written anything 24:13.533 --> 24:15.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% without music playing 'cause it's rhythmic. 24:15.900 --> 24:18.900 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Rhythm and reading it aloud is so important to me. 24:18.900 --> 24:22.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% But, the music I'm playing can't have vocals in it 24:22.100 --> 24:24.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% unless they're in a language I don't understand, 24:24.233 --> 24:26.966 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% like German opera or Italian opera. 24:26.966 --> 24:28.033 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - You're a big jazz fan, right? 24:28.033 --> 24:29.400 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - A big jazz fan, jazz is fine. 24:29.400 --> 24:32.233 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - Coltrane, miles-- - Coltrane, J. S. Bach, 24:32.233 --> 24:34.333 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% all of this sort, I'm listening to, 24:34.333 --> 24:38.333 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% but I can't listen to anything with lyrics in English 24:38.333 --> 24:40.466 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% because it's a distraction. 24:40.466 --> 24:43.066 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% The same thing obtains for reading another novel when 24:43.066 --> 24:44.466 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% you're writing a novel. 24:44.466 --> 24:46.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Yeah, it'd be like listening to somebody else's 24:46.233 --> 24:47.600 align:left position:30%,start line:83% size:60% lyrics. - Exactly. 24:47.600 --> 24:49.066 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - We have about a minute left. 24:49.066 --> 24:50.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% So you have another novel in the can or coming? 24:50.733 --> 24:54.566 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I do, I'm just starting to do research on it. 24:54.566 --> 24:57.166 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% I don't wanna tell too much about it, but it's 24:57.166 --> 24:59.433 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% going to be set in the early 60s. 24:59.433 --> 25:03.133 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% It has to do with a certain chemical that got widespread 25:03.133 --> 25:06.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% use in that period of the 60s, and I don't wanna 25:06.733 --> 25:09.966 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% give anything away, so I'll just tell you the initials, LSD. 25:09.966 --> 25:12.100 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience laughing) 25:12.100 --> 25:13.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% - Well, we only have 30 seconds, 25:13.200 --> 25:15.866 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% I could guess, but, excellent. 25:15.866 --> 25:18.200 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% It's a treat to get to see you. 25:18.200 --> 25:20.833 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% Like I said, I think this book is terrific and if, in fact, 25:20.833 --> 25:23.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% it becomes a television series, I'll be the first to 25:23.866 --> 25:26.433 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% program my DVR to see it. 25:26.433 --> 25:27.900 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - We can only hope, my dear fellow. 25:27.900 --> 25:30.000 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - And good luck with the short-story collection, 25:30.000 --> 25:31.233 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and that is called? 25:31.233 --> 25:33.500 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - It's called the Relive Box after the story 25:33.500 --> 25:34.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% that was in the New Yorker two years ago. 25:34.866 --> 25:36.066 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - [Evan] Relive box, and it'll be out soon? 25:36.066 --> 25:38.533 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% - About a game, gaming, it's about gaming 25:38.533 --> 25:40.033 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% and what does it mean. 25:40.033 --> 25:41.233 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - Very good, well, I wish you continued success with this 25:41.233 --> 25:42.166 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% and everything else you do. 25:42.166 --> 25:43.266 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% T. C. Boyle, thank you very much 25:43.266 --> 25:44.100 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% - Thanks, Evan. 25:44.100 --> 25:45.000 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% - Great seeing you. 25:45.000 --> 25:46.666 align:left position:20%,start line:89% size:70% (audience applauding) 25:46.666 --> 25:48.833 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% we'd love to have you join us in the studio. 25:48.833 --> 25:52.866 align:left position:20%,start line:83% size:70% Visit our website at KLRU.ORG/OVERHEARD 25:52.866 --> 25:56.233 align:left position:20%,start line:77% size:70% to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience 25:56.233 --> 26:00.100 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and guests, and an archive of past episodes. 26:00.100 --> 26:02.700 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - I'm not coming out of a journalistic background so, 26:02.700 --> 26:05.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I like Tom Wolfe, for instance, who's books I love. 26:05.666 --> 26:09.533 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I don't want to reproduce how many spots are on 26:09.533 --> 26:12.733 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% the dalmatian at the firehouse and how they talk. 26:12.733 --> 26:15.666 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% I want to have my imagination run free, so I'm using 26:15.666 --> 26:18.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% these real facts to then create an entirely different 26:18.400 --> 26:20.866 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% set of characters that have nothing to do with them. 26:20.866 --> 26:23.400 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith 26:23.400 --> 26:27.366 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation 26:27.366 --> 26:31.800 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy 26:31.800 --> 26:36.300 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% and by KLRU's Producer's Circle, ensuring local programming 26:36.300 --> 26:38.466 align:left position:10%,start line:83% size:80% that reflects the character and interests of the 26:38.466 --> 26:41.300 align:left position:10%,start line:89% size:80% greater Austin, Texas community. 26:41.300 --> 26:43.966 align:left position:30%,start line:89% size:60% (dynamic music)